The Behaviour Smart Podcast
Welcome to the Behaviour Smart Podcast – the show that explores the intersection of education, care, and behaviour management, with a side of thought-provoking conversations on a range of other topics.
Each episode dives into practical strategies and innovative solutions for improving behaviour in educational and care settings, while also offering insightful discussions on broader themes like personal growth, culture, and current events. Whether you're a teacher, care professional, parent, or simply curious about human behaviour, our podcast offers something for everyone.
Tune in for expert interviews, real-life stories, and fresh perspectives – all aimed at creating positive change in the way we understand and support behaviour.
The Behaviour Smart Podcast
Cultivating a Culture of Compassion and Growth
Transforming Bleasdale School into a thriving educational environment focussed on relationships, behaviour, and proactive strategies is the central theme of this episode. Sefton Booth and Lois Howarth share their experiences and insights on instilling a coaching culture, fostering positive relationships, and the importance of predictability in education.
• Overview of Bleasdale School's initial challenges
• The significance of a coaching culture in education
• Transition from a subject-based to a tailored curriculum
• Building relationships as a foundation for learning
• Implementing predictability to enhance learning environments
• The partnership with Booth’s supermarket for real-world application
• Engaging staff and managing resistance to change
• Strategies for proactively addressing student behaviour
• The holistic approach to supporting special educational needs
Please reach out and learn more about Behaviour Smart and its commitment to fostering positive behaviour in education.
Welcome to the Behaviour Smart podcast brought to you by Behaviour Smart, the incident recording system that improves behaviour. In this episode, we will be talking to Sefton Booth and Lois Howarth. Sefton is the head of Bleasdale School and Lois is the lead practitioner on relationships and behaviour. Today they are going to talk to us about how they reinvigorated the school.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and welcome to episode two of the Behaviour Smart podcast. My name is Dean Cotton, I am a behaviour consultant, a trainer, an author and the CEO of Behaviour Smart, and I'm going to bring on straight away Mr Sefton Booth, who is the head teacher of Bleasdale School, and Lois Auerf, who is the lead practitioner on behaviour and relationships. Hello you two, how are you?
Speaker 2:Hello lovely to see you, Dean. You too, you too. Now Sefton and I go back quite a long way. I was in Bleasdale School a couple of weeks ago and Sefton reminded me that we've known each other for 20 years. Obviously, we met when we were about four or five, didn't?
Speaker 1:we.
Speaker 3:We did. We met Dean. Just as a mini reminder, it was at a school. There was a great school called the elms uh, and there were some brilliant and amazing uh colleagues that that saw me through. And, of course, when you met me there, dean, um I, I was um a ta and I'm really proud to have been, have gone through my career, having worked in every position in the school, and the Elms was a very, very special and brilliant place to us, dean, I think, because Dean certainly came as a trainer for us and really went through and was putting us through our paces in learning about behavior.
Speaker 2:But additionally, um, I think, dean you, you may have had some challenge from from some members of staff very, very interesting in those early days and I was just so pleased that I can't I couldn't have upset people that much, because they invited me back and I've been going back for the last 20 years and when I went back to because obviously the Elms shut down and they opened Bluebell Park and obviously you went along to Bluebell Park and what was your role in Bluebell Park? Sefton.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so initially it was teacher, then moved through to then being TLR, which was around music and performing arts, and then, following that, moved into assistant head teacher, and initially it was the role's name was PMLD and complex needs and, of course, as language and labels, that don't really mean anything anymore move on. Then the title moved on, but additionally then I also moved and worked within the post 16 area. My main focus at that time was around the curriculum and how to craft that, and it was part of an amazing team of which, uh, some of that team is still heading it up now. Uh, really, really brilliant, and and blue bell um will always be in my heart. It's an amazing space and place. Um, yeah, and, and, and we, we, and, at certain points, dean. It was brilliant because just before I left, we were both training in there, weren't we? Which is very exciting to have a competition on how much we could get them clapping so that we could all get one another.
Speaker 2:And then I went back there last year and did some training and Sefton weren't there and I was like, where's Sefton? And he's like, oh, he's like, oh, he's moved, he's got a headship. And I just knew, I was so, so happy for you and knew that you, wherever you go, and wherever you, wherever you run, whichever school you run, it's always going to be a special school in the special sense. Um, so we'll come back to you in a second sefton, because on your journey from blue back bell park up to bleedsdale, I believe you picked up another member of staff, lois.
Speaker 2:Uh, so hi, lois hi dean and can you tell us a little bit about your background, lois?
Speaker 4:yeah, of course. So initially started as a mainstream teacher with a cohort of 33 students, 11 of which who were on the SEN register, so very quickly realised that I couldn't possibly meet all need in every minute of every hour of every day with a TA for half of the week. So my head was very supportive at the time um, the mainstream head and she released me on my non-contact time to an amazing school called astley park. So I spent spent my non-contact time at astley park trying to develop and level up my skills and ability to support those learners with special educational needs. Then and began to apply for jobs within a specialist setting because I knew that's where my heart was to promote those um, independent skills and preparation for adulthood.
Speaker 4:Spent a short time in an amazing school called Hillside in Longridge that supports students on the ASC. Then moved to the amazing Astley Park and spent quite a few years there as a, as a teacher and a subject leader. Then an amazing opportunity came where I was given the opportunity to work as a lead practitioner at Bleasdale with the amazing Sefton. We crossed paths for a very, very short period at Astley Park and I felt as a professional ready to support people from an overarching view as opposed to class teacher.
Speaker 2:Brilliant. So both of you ended up at Bleasdale, and tell me a little bit about Bleasdale. I didn't know anything about Bleasdale until I came up a couple of weeks ago, but what was it like when you arrived there?
Speaker 3:yeah, so it. So it's really interesting journey really because, as lois says, it's kind of crossed over. So we crossed paths at astley park and then, and then, um, I moved up here to take the headship now. At the time, um, I, just a real brief bit, I, I came up for the interview and you, just kind of you, you walk through and you go, wow, like this is too good to be true, and I, and I still, I still remind all the staff that getting this job was like winning the lottery and I still feel that way that I've won the lottery by by coming here. But what I, what I, what I believed was happening and what was here, was not actually the full picture. And when you arrive, you kind of go OK, there's all these things going on, of which they were an outstanding school. They were a residential school as well as a day school. They had it was PMLD only, there was roughly just over 30 pupils here. It was very, very small. It had huge grounds and huge potential.
Speaker 3:But I and so there's me going wow, I couldn't believe that a job like this you know up in the lakes area you know, over the bay.
Speaker 3:It's just, it's unbelievable. And then when I arrived here and started unpicking little things I think probably just got a little bit out of step Now it was still outstanding. So so they were certainly doing a lot right that Bluebell, that Astley Park had gone and done. You know, alongside evidence, learning and other things, we came here and knew lots of elements weren't quite right. And what do I mean by that? Well, they were teaching a curriculum that was subject-based, okay, and that already is an alarm ringing bell for a kind of SEN place that you go, really, are you really teaching science? Are you really teaching habitats? Is that thing, you know? And then, and then, as you kind of start to pick different rocks up, you suddenly go okay, I'm not sure that the full foundation is here.
Speaker 3:So what we, what I did, before Lois arrived, was to start to kind of really push some of the important issues. So it was, you know, uh, making sure you know that in terms of employment, um, you know, there was, there was one teacher employed, um, so it was about, um, suddenly opening those doors up, changing the reputation of the building so that people understood that Leasdale was going to be a kind of jewel in LCC's crown one of the best SEN schools. It was about changing the culture of the building, of which. I think it required a style of management, a kind of slightly archaic style of management, which was really about kind of top-down model and understanding. You know that their viewpoint was very much children come first, and that's right. That is at the centre of what we do. However, that is in tandem of making sure that staff are confident and prepared, you know.
Speaker 3:So the culture had to change, and how we did that, by the way, was is that we looked at the coaching culture, um, and then we we one heavily invested in it into a program of um, annie boat is um, uh, coaching schools, um and um, so. So we've trained other people to be coaches lois is a coach, myself is one but then then we've done it at a senior level, leader, and then we've done it at teacher level and then we're doing it at HLTA after Christmas. So the culture, and then the culture is really understanding that we have the answer, that each person has the answer for themselves. So we changed culture, but then Sefton had this brilliant freedom and perhaps, you know, maybe if I had the time again I might have gone a little bit slower, but we pretty much then picked up each and everything and went OK, actually, this isn't working, this needs to change, and so probably everything in the building has been changed.
Speaker 3:Thing in the building has been changed, and that includes um behavior. It includes an assessment which moves, moved over from um one previous assessment system to a new one which is more of a reflective and inquiry um process. We had a new curriculum, but each of those things were done especially carefully in that coaching culture. So easily we could have, we could have just ripped up a uh, the curriculum and gone here's the new one. But what we needed was was staff to be able to do that for themselves. So what Sefton did was bring here are some materials now explore them and you tell me how we're going to create the curriculum of which.
Speaker 3:During all of this period we had lots of different interventions, things that came in. One of them was OSTED that saw us after I'd been here for six to eight weeks and then they came back 11 months later, of which both times were outstanding. Later, of which both times were outstanding, the first time was a declining judgment, um, which meant okay, we can see what you're doing, sefton, but there's a couple of areas you need to look at.
Speaker 3:Sefton was thinking I need to look at them all um and then um, and then we really then um, focused on those areas and when they came back, they they left going like we can really see what you're doing and things are embedded and you are outstanding and we have no AFIs for you, which means anything to work on, which is great, because they probably read my master plan and Lois's master plan of what actually we need to do all these things. So, driving some of that home, then focusing in a little bit on behaviour, as we started to look really a lot more clearly on behaviour, that's when we were lucky enough that Lois saw an advert that we put out and picked that up and came to interview and immediately you just you know I would have been absolutely the worst headteacher in the world if I didn't go. Great, here is somebody we need straight away Because they have all those skills. And that's when Lois turned up. And I should probably shut down a bit here Because, Lois, how was it when you got here?
Speaker 4:So again I echo what you said earlier about the area of outstanding natural beauty Real close-knit team, small team initially, and obviously there's been. There's been lots of growth since. But I think the biggest thing for me was on arrival, nobody had been team teach trained prior to sefton, and so there was a. There was a real shift in mindset beginning and and those proactive strategies were beginning to be implemented and understood. But I think that the knowledge base was just the foundations have been put in. So as I arrived, it was about then implementing said strategies and said said knowledge and pedagogy all the way through from from the leadership team down through to the to the TAs. But the staff, the cohorts of children Sefton touched on, was predominantly PMLD learners. But now on my arrival, we're seeing a real plethora of needs and co-existing conditions. So of course, the need to to level up those skills and that knowledge base was was there.
Speaker 2:I just think you know. So you arrived there. How many students did you have when you arrived there?
Speaker 3:It was 32.
Speaker 2:And one teacher.
Speaker 3:I have to say this, which was my question at the time was my first question. I sat down with the acting head and the previous head and asked the question can we start with lesson observations, which we call now um, development feedback? But um, where, where, where, where are we at with those? What's it looking like? And and they, they look to me and I I kind of had a look of fear in my eyes, thinking what are they going to say. And I said you do do the lesson observation, absolutely of course we do. It's super professional, um, it's just the plural that you've used. And I said you do do the lesson observation, absolutely of course we do. It's super professional, and it's just the plural that you've used. And I said I'm sorry, I don't, I don't follow it. And what they said was well, well, we only have one teacher employed. I said what, what, what do you mean? I don't, you know.
Speaker 3:And it was a real kind of you know, there there were lots of moments and you find that when you step into headship there are lots of things that come at you, and some things for me certainly. I probably still have moments like this. The blood will drain from my face because I'll suddenly go wow, ok, I have an issue. The remark we said before. You know, team Teach, you know to be fair. They had a very small cohort. You know, team teach, you know to be fair. They had a very small cohort, which we know never works. By the way, who were trained in team teach? One or two or three people, and some of those had left, you know, and and so. So that's why we always say, oh, there's no. Uh, no one was really trained in team teach. Because, but because you'd never just train a small cohort in one way of dealing with behavior Cause, then what would it mean for the whole school?
Speaker 3:So, it was a little bit. It was a little bit of that, and then you know, you know there was, you know and then at.
Speaker 1:That point.
Speaker 3:Then we started employing and it and really what we did was we built the school. You know, there are some people here an amazing person I have to mention, arlene Fishwick, who has been here for 24, 25 years and she has seen the evolution of Bleasdale way above both of us and has such a depth of knowledge and what she does for the pupils is unbelievable. And what she does for the pupils is unbelievable and what's a great compliment from her really is that she feels that sense of the buzz is back Because what are we doing? We're kind of getting back in step with what is going on nationally for SEN schools and knowing actually getting back to the centre of why any of us do what we do, why Behaviour Smart exists, which is the child, a person with a name is at the centre of everything that we do and every decision that we make.
Speaker 3:And unfortunately, that moment of headship is you realise that you're often speaking to people that are talking in numbers, not in people. You know and you know's it's being able to put that person first. So there are, there are some people who are still here Arlene, to name one, several other people but as a whole, the majority of people have changed in the last two years. I mean, the last time I looked about um about a year ago, I looked at the percentage change of staff and at that point so I'd only been there six months at that point I think we're about 52 to 56 percent change in staff. That's huge. It's like a different building. It's such a.
Speaker 2:I think you've just done an amazing job because in my experience, looking at you, know you've got a school that's outstanding. Uh, you, a new head comes in and wants to change everything. Surely that must create backlash from staff. I mean, how did staff take the idea of you know, being Sefton and Lois?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a great question.
Speaker 3:I think some of it lies in again, it's still back to the same answer. In some ways it lies in what was important to the child and also, are you supported? So I'll give you two examples with that supported. So I'll give you two examples with that um, uh, you know, uh, and also, by the way, a really amazing governing body who's behind us and wants to change things into a coach, coaching culture, which I believed in, which, which helped, but the um bringing it back to the child is already my example of okay, you go into a lesson, you go why, why are you doing this?
Speaker 3:And they go well, it, it's what we have to teach? And you go, but you know. Or you'd speak to a parent. You go, how a lesson? You go, why are you doing this? And they go well, it's what we have to teach? And you go, but you know. Or you'd speak to a parent and you'd go how do you feel the last report was? And parents would go. I think it's just totally irrelevant. I do not understand why a child is like they're writing to me about the child's pencil grip. You know, and you know I'm thinking about whether the child can pencil grip. You know, and um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about whether the child can actually press a switch not.
Speaker 1:Not about why are they holding a?
Speaker 3:pencil, you know, um, so that that's one. That's one side of it, um, you know, and uh, the the the other, the other side of it is is is that people wanting and needing that change. So so um had a long conversation with a previous member of SLT who used to work here, where we talked about well, look, have you got a behaviour package in place? They said, we don't need one. And you go okay, I don't understand how you don't need one so well, all the children in this person's view are pmld label. It's just some are can move around, are agile, and you go okay, I don't follow what you're saying. Of which, as we had this discussion, somebody came to the door and said oh, I've sprayed my wrist. You think I could go five minutes early, which my answer is, of course, right, but how has it happened? Can you tell me how well? A child ran at me and hurt it. So I turned back to the senior leader go, do you not see that there is an issue right there, that there is behavior and we haven't trained these people to be able to support? And so, in actual fact, the brilliant Bleasdale staff kind of just went brilliant, great, give us what you've got. You know, they're probably to be fair. You know, I'm really, really supportive of the team. They're probably getting a little bit sick of like here is a new thing. Here is a new thing. Here is a new thing. So we are stopping and embedding for a little time at the minute, but I think they were waiting and calling out.
Speaker 3:For why are we doing this? It's not purposeful. What is the purpose for the child? Help us be trained so that we can do it. Deliver new materials and inject some kind of some direction, but also some excitement back into the building of this is important. Let's get back to the why. So we spent a little bit of time looking at Senec and why and bringing people into that focus, but the focus in schools is always going to be pupils, and that's why you would have to ever do any change of any of any sort. Do you know what I mean? But, but, lois, what do you think? What's? Yeah?
Speaker 4:I just completely echo. It always comes back to the why, but also it's it's the coaching culture that empowers people. It gives them the autonomy. So, for example, sefton mentioned the new curriculum. That curriculum is written by the teachers for the pupils, so we know that it's meaningful and it's pertinent to those learners and we're always, always from the moment of entry, preparing for adulthood. But the teachers believe in that curriculum and what they're teaching and they know why certain things are in place and it's always under constant review because those cohorts are coming in. But the teachers, almost the staff, have been given more of a voice. I would say so that autonomy gives them ownership over certain things. And it's not Sefton and I as the leadership team, or the other leaders that run the school, it's the TAs, it's the teachers, it's the HLTAs, it's everybody isn't it, and that's one thing that.
Speaker 2:I got. When I came up to have a look at the school a couple of weeks ago, it was a pure team of people. Everybody knew what everybody was doing and what their role was, and one of the things that I think you, you know, you've always been, uh, really good at I I'm speaking to sefton, because I've obviously known for quite a long time is helping people build positive relationships, which sort of comes to your role, lois, because you're the relationships practitioner. So what does that involve?
Speaker 4:So it involves all behavior, of course, is a communication, and everything we do here at Bleasdale and and I'm sure, across the counties, is bespoke to individuals. So behavior as a word gives a negative connotation. So we like to say that our policy is called an RMB policy. It's relationships and behaviour. How can we support anybody, whether it's staff, pupils, without having that strong relationship, without understanding that individual? So that's what my role is all about.
Speaker 4:But, also it provides that push to be professionally profound. We don't instantly have all the answers and it's okay to ask for help. So that's the culture here at bleasdale, so that real team ethos is developed on those positive relationships between staff which is then echoed between staff building those positive relationships with the learners, because everybody here is an individual, everybody's interests are completely different and everybody's motivations are different, and it's it's it's paramount that the staff build those relationships first and foremost, before we even begin to place demand or deliver curriculum. We need that, that positive relationship, first, and it also helps then in restorative practice. Of course we need to rebuild said relationship before we can move forward yeah, and it starts at the top, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes? I know you don't like to say the top, but it's that sort of trickle down.
Speaker 4:And it's that modelling from everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah absolutely, and if staff model positive relationships with each other, then it sort of leads to them modelling positive relationships with the students. And you do so many things up there to help build positive relationships. I mean, first of all, you are. You are very lucky because it is absolutely stunning and, by the way, if any of the listeners want to go and look at bleakdale school, I'm pretty sure they will welcome you with open arms, always welcome always welcome.
Speaker 3:Send me an email pop up. We're always welcoming visitors and um, consider the space if you need one. Uh, that's all I'm saying, um, but, but yeah, just to, just to pick up on what you're saying there d because because I think there's, you know, I also just want to um remind lois a little bit that you know, when she came here, um, she, she, she was an amazing offer to the school. She genuinely is an amazing offer, and I know staff feel the same about her, because you know she came from, uh, astley Park, which is, which is a real good epicenter of an outstanding school. They've got very strong practice in there, so so that was already a bedding ground, I think, for Lois. I think we've already said that.
Speaker 3:But there's things in which they've they'd leapt forward to gain clarity, which then Lois has brought us clarity to us. You know, even even on simple, simple matters, which I think Lois will explain further. But, for example, explain to people predictability, just the word predictability, that's a win. You know, when it was in previous schools before Astley Park, you know we would use a plethora of different behaviour techniques to go okay, fine, what does that mean? Or we would use specific plans which can be helpful for the individual, but actually there are some tools which should be used across all learners and sometimes communication. When we think about communication, which is also relationships and behaviour, we also go okay yeah, of course, a lot of our learners definitely need symbols.
Speaker 3:We seem to know that. Oh, of course, a lot of our learners need signing. We kind of go okay, that's straightforward. But what Lois brought in was elements of where you go. Okay, look, where's the predictability. Okay, we need to know, when we're going from A to B, that there's a song that's sang every single time. Okay, knowing that we had a discussion while you were here, dean, around the actual time, because that can have an effect on each learner. It can be signs, signals, it can be all different types of elements that then bring people through, but Lois brought a plethora of that. When I first walked into Ossipark, I loved some of the elements it would be. You know, the day was very, very carefully carved up and not in a normal sense of here is break and here's dinner.
Speaker 3:You know it was really carefully measured out and different per class, which is right but also you know, you would go to a break time session and there would be a kind of a plate and forks with the, with the symbols on it, so that you'd be able to communicate and be able to, which, again, would be another sense of predictability. There wasn't a moment in Astley Park where it didn't go from one session to the next session to the next. You just knew what was coming next. As a member of staff now, you can go into some of our brilliant partners and go.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure what's happening next, and if I don't know, those pupils definitely don't know. But but, lois, talk about some of the elements that you've put in for us at Bleasdale. Predictability is one, but what else have you focused on?
Speaker 4:so there's a big focus on proactivity and we really really push those stage one and stage two strategies. So we're pre-empting all the time. Real strong relationships with the parents so we know if there's been an issue before a pupil arrives, for example, and Behaviour Smart helps us with this so we can log incidents. We record the incidents. Staff are constantly reviewing and looking back at smart plans. So something that's not worked one day we know it's not worked. What are we going to try next? And, of course, the AI edition is definitely going to help support that and bring in further ideas and just provoke that thought from people so yeah total communication goes hand in hand with total predictability, but it's about pre-empting and being proactive as opposed to reactive, because everything depends on those relationships.
Speaker 4:Predictability helps build trust, which then helps enhance that relationship, which means we can stretch and challenge across the curriculum yeah, I mean, you know it's really interesting.
Speaker 2:You touch on um predictability. Oh, by the way, thanks for the plug there on behavior. That's not what it is, yeah, but it is that good dean like we can't.
Speaker 3:We can't miss it. It's part of a really important offer of behavior within the school and, by the way, whenever we talk about behavior to any other school, we always say have you bought behavior smart net yet? Because it is an absolute integral part of what the offer is to the children. Do you know what I mean? It makes a difference and that's important and we are really and reduces workload as well, which is fab well, that's it, keep coming.
Speaker 2:I'll pay you both later. The predictability I I was really fortunate, uh, a couple of weeks ago. There's a, a school I'm not going to even say where it is, but it's it's, uh, probably one of the most controversial schools in the uk and I was very, very excited to be invited to go and look around this school and the systems that they had in place. I obviously read about the school, I'd heard about the school in the newspapers. I I knew a bit about the school but I'd never actually been to it and I reserved judgment and I went to the school to look round and it's a huge secondary school and it's been. You know, people have said it's like an army camp and whatever, and actually I shouldn't have liked it. But I went to this school and I really, really liked it and what I liked about it was predictability. You know, predictability or consistency or both. It makes people feel safe If you know what's going to happen. You know what's coming, you know how to manage that.
Speaker 3:What I find interesting about it just to say because, yeah, and you gave an example while you were here which was based around whistles or lining up and those elements, and I agree, it's just just. I agree from that example. When you explained it the other day, I thought, oh, I, I don't think I would like it, even though you were talking about in the context of of predictability. However, the reason why, why my brain jumps to there is that I think we've Dean Lois and myself. We've all seen, haven't we, at certain points, places where actually it's not predictability, it's control, and when it's control, it's the opposite.
Speaker 1:It's like the circle comes all the way around, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:Control is here, and you know, and predictabilityability is here, and it's a very fine difference between supporting a child and controlling the child absolutely and that's the difference, that that is the big difference.
Speaker 2:And then you know, when you look at, you know you mentioned team teach there and uh, you know team teach is a huge percent of TeamTeach is about the diversion, diffusion, de-escalation and all the other stuff that goes off. And then a very, very small percent of it is about how we do control, because sometimes we need to, but if we haven't got all that other stuff in place and we're just going to use the control, that's dangerous, because when we control people, we don't give them the chance to make mistakes and actually you learn a lot more from mistakes than we do successes, and and then you know that's what we do with in behavior.
Speaker 2:Smart, isn't it that we? We can see where maybe a mistake has been made, but we don't call them that. They're an opportunity to learn.
Speaker 1:And that, additionally, is how to be professional, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Because there's too many places that you can walk into where it's just draconian, it's just way out of its timescale. Do you know what I mean? Where people are being told what to do, which is, where does that exist anymore in the professional world? It's not a normal thing. And the other thing I'll just mention about that element, which is a really good point you made back in July, a really strong point which brings it back to that relationship you know, there's lots and lots of things that you can learn about behaviour, as you said, dean, and I really took this to heart because I genuinely believe this as a real kind of overarching rule.
Speaker 3:What you said was is do you know what? There's lots. There's so much I could talk to you about behavior, and and that's that's a lot of our friendship is based on understanding people's behavior and how we've joined together, because it interests us hugely. But the bottom line, an overarching rule I loved it, dean is just be nice. Just be nice to someone else. And that absolutely is it, because all of the issues that I deal with in terms of either with staff or with pupils, or with staff and pupils, you just want to go just be nice At the end of the day.
Speaker 2:You know what I'd done when I was talking to you about that is I'd done some training on trauma-informed and you know, obviously it's a big thing at the moment and I'd gone into schools and some staff were saying to me, well, we're using a trauma-informed approach with this student. And I thought, okay, what is that? And I started reading about it, doing a little bit of researching, and now I'm thinking, well, it's just saying be nice. Like you know, obviously there are other things involved in drawing a phone approach, but literally, if you're nice to somebody, you're going to, and then they'll be nice to you. You build a positive relationship and boom. And I I honestly believe that, obviously, knowing you two now as I do, that you've gone into that school and you know that you could have gone. Oh wow, what am I going to do with this? And you probably do some nights, uh. But but by being nice to people, you've got a team of people that are on board with you.
Speaker 2:If you'd have gone in and gone, right we're gonna do this, we're gonna get shut of that, we're gonna do this and you've all got to follow or you can leave. But then you know that wouldn't have worked unless you did that.
Speaker 3:No definitely, definitely didn't. I hope nobody sees this and goes that's exactly what they did. No, but I think part of it is, I think the approach. Part of it again is the coaching bit, but also it's about knowing, hang on a minute, we are shoulder to shoulder. There is no structure here, it's a flat structure and we're on the same side of the fence with you, we're with you, we're doing everything with you. So I always think that's probably the approach that we go with and that we try and push. But I think, Lois, did you not do parts of trauma informed at Astley Park?
Speaker 4:a little bit is that yes, yeah, yeah again, dean, I think it's the approach for everybody. It's about those feelings linking to experiences that then link to our behaviour. So it's about positivity and that positive input, how we can change an experience, because the executive function isn't there for the majority of our learners. So we need to help them make those connections through our approach, don't we?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And can I just go back Sefton to you were saying there about, um, what I'm going to tell the listeners is when sefton said this is not like a, a senior team or a head teacher. Uh, when we were doing the introduction into this podcast, it took his ages to work out what he said, because sefton doesn't like to be called a head teacher, because he's just a team of people and it's a team of people working together to do their best for this students you support it is embarrassing and I there isn't a meeting that I don't normally attend um, that would be that I would say hi, my name's Sefton and I'm a Sefton and I'm here to be Sefton, and I will absolutely be the complete authentic me, right?
Speaker 3:I can't, you know, but the idea that I have this title, yes, okay, I probably need it for some authority somewhere, you know, but ultimately it's just an embarrassment, isn't it? I'll tell you one other thing that might amuse. You is over in the car park. Um, there is, there is a placard that says head teacher's car park in space, right, okay, and there is. There is only one reason why it's not gone down because as soon as I got here, I was like that can come down for a start. How embarrassing, how absolutely embarrassing that I would have my own thing, but, um, I think people want it to stay up because I'm really bad at parking, so so they always go. Just go there, because I and everybody knows to give a wide berth.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah that's absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 2:So what if you were to give either of you or you know, we could do three each, but I'm thinking three things that you've put in place there that have had the most impact. What do you think those three things would be?
Speaker 3:behavior, smart, I think, um, uh, poaching. I think I think that cult, the change of culture in terms of coaching, I think. Coaching, I think the change of culture in terms of coaching, I think that was really, really important. I think it's about making sure that we're all on the same. Why page OK? So it was about getting people around that, because that then allows lots and lots and lots of things to happen, and then and then it is quite often is it is the team that you get into the building. So so you know, we have amazing Kathleen who joined us, we've got Lois, we've got amazing Becky, we've got already an HLTA base who bring you know of which? Again, you know, this was something that was already in the building and I thought it was fantastic. Hltas do all the staffing and that's absolutely right. They know who should be where, right. As soon as I do it, I become the fella in the ivory tower.
Speaker 3:You know, and changing those bits of practices where you know the door is open, it's always going to be open and and I will always have time for anybody that comes to me, and they know that and and if they felt differently, I would definitely be going. Please come and talk to me, because I don't know why you feel that way. Those would be my things.
Speaker 4:What would be your things, lois and then I think yeah, I I think cultural shift as well. For me, from a relationships and behaviour perspective. So, because we're focusing on the positivity of building those relationships, I think the opportunities and the outcomes of the children are vastly improving and have vastly, vastly increased, vastly improving and have vastly, vastly increased. And also, I think that real starting and people being confident and starting with why, always, always coming back to why are we doing this and why would we do that, why would we not do this, for example, so putting the children at the forefront of absolutely everything that we do, so all the staff team have autonomy, they're all happy, as you've seen, dean, to explain to you I'm doing this because, and I've done this because, and they, they're really confident in their own practice, because the children at the forefront of of everything that we do. I think also just proactivity, so pre-empting and really think forward, thinking blue sky, thinking all of the time about being proactive.
Speaker 2:The three things. You know, the why is a really important question, and something that I do all the time is a behavior consultant. When I'm going out and people say, yeah, this, I said why? Uh, you know, when we started behavior smart, we asked a couple hundred people why do you record incidents? And and they found it really difficult to answer. You've got two top answers was either because we've got to or in case there's an allegation. And yeah, like no, which is really sad, isn't it?
Speaker 3:it's really sad because because that's not the purpose of why you would do that in in its, in its principles. Do know what I mean. The principle of recording is a way in which we can learn to do something different next time so that it's a better experience for that service user. That's the main aim of it, but what it's become, is maybe it protects me, maybe it's recording and reporting and it's the law, and you go, okay, where's the law going to come and say Over there somewhere it's the detective work as well, isn't it?
Speaker 4:Why are we seeing this behaviour? What's the communication? What are we trying to get across? Why are we exhibiting and displaying in this way?
Speaker 2:We're coming towards the end, but before we do, there's a couple more things I just wanted to mention. I thought it would be rude to get through this podcast without mentioning booths, the supermarket chain. One of you want to explain what happened there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, unless you want to Lois.
Speaker 4:No, no, go for it.
Speaker 3:It was. It was really really great. So, so, beck Parker, one of the other lead learning practitioner we essentially what we did was we sat in the school, we looked at our curriculum, we discussed the curriculum and the employability element of it, and we also discussed what. What is it? What is it that the children need, what? What, what? You know, we're always asking that question, always re-reviewing the curriculum, and as we ask that question, what we're saying is is well, look, what what we need is is like a space, a safe, safe place to be able to explore, being able to be out in the community. Right, so you know.
Speaker 3:So then the question is well, while we're in this really lucky position of an abundance of space and building space, we go great. Well then, why don't we have our own shop? Okay. Why don't we have our own hairdressers? Why don't we have our own medical room? Okay, so that we can simulate some of those places that our children find the most hardest to be in. Okay, going to the hairdressers, going to the hospital and also going around shops can be very, very challenging. So how can we make it as best we can?
Speaker 3:So Rebecca Parker called up the local um booths and said look, we've got this project.
Speaker 3:We'd really like we're really looking at trying to make a shop so that our young people can do two things we want them, first of all, as simple as we can, is to be able to exist in a shop, and we'll we want to set it up exactly like one of your shops so that they can be able to be in your shop well, and then also, what we can do is follow that through the employability element and we'll sell things locally in the village so that we can support within the village.
Speaker 3:And booths were just like off the scale, they were just so. I've never I've like. They are a brilliant, brilliant company and I and I can't wait to celebrate the full opening of the shop later this year because we're gonna, we're gonna have to press down everything for it. But they, they came in, they redesigned the space and they gave us tills, they gave us, they gave us all the things trolleys, everything, I mean. I now have a booth shop on our school site and it and it is is brilliant and and the and the results to pupils, lois, I mean, what's the effect?
Speaker 4:it's. It's been astounding. I mean we've had, we'd had learners since you know the recent opening, we've had learners transitioning those skills to the actual cooperative shop down the road so they're independently following a shopping list and purchasing items. Also everything, everything that's done that the pupils create. They're selling their own items that they've created within the shop and so the opportunities are there. From the curricula you'd say old money maths, for us it's my thinking and problem solving the amount of problem solving skills that are taking place, being developed within the shop. It's astounding and along with the communication, the communicative element there, that the monetary value.
Speaker 2:There's so many cross-curricular links and opportunities for the learners it is absolutely stunning and, uh, you know, I couldn't believe it when I walked in there. And just for anybody that's listening, uh, down south, uh, I think I might be wrong here. I I'm sure I'm going to be proved wrong, but I think Booth's is more of a Lancashire supermarket. But for those of you that are listening down South, imagine a cross between Waitrose and Marks and Spencer's food and then you've got Booth's. And it's quite interesting that Sefton's surname is Booth as well. I'm sure that's nothing to do with it.
Speaker 3:So it's the Bleasdale Sefton Booth Shop. Yeah, right, ok. But the other thing that amused me when I first came here, because we've got two huge green gates going into one of the one of the what we call the therapies buildings, gates going into one of the one of the, um that what we call the therapies buildings. We have all our therapies in there and these huge green gates at the front as the, as the initials of the school, which is bleasdale school, and of course, every morning, at about I don't know quarter to six, six o'clock, I open the gates, I drive my car in and and reverse it back up and try not to hit the wall Into your space.
Speaker 3:Yeah, into my own head, into your space. And then I look at the gates and the initials are obviously because they've been opened the other way around. So it says SB Sefton Booth, I think. Is there some kind of thing you know, fate has somehow brought?
Speaker 2:me here for a bit of time. So thank you so much, you two. I mean that's, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. Usually we put an advert in the middle, but we've not bothered today, um, because you were so interesting. But we finish off with all our guests. We ask them, uh, their most embarrassing moment or their claim to fame, so you can choose which one. So, um, who wants to go first with either the most embarrassing moment or their claim to fame?
Speaker 4:oh, I'll go first. I'll give you a minute to think, seth, and I know you'll have so many. Um could be seen as an embarrassing moment as well, I, I suppose. So I did once out-exercise Mr Motivator. So anybody that knows me knows that I'm incredibly competitive and also full of energy. So I was competing in sport for Lancashire and Mr Motivator was there and it was almost a contest, if you will, and whether I could physically carry on or not. I was going to win. So yeah, so I did, did out exercise we would describe some high impact training and beat Mr Motivator with ease. This is quite a few years ago as well. I understand that he will be a little bit older than me, but this, this was in my in my youth Sefton can you beat that?
Speaker 3:Well, I don't know, I, I don't know what I can and can't tell you really, but I will. I'll give you two mini quick ones. Uh, once, uh, I, I my a bit of an embarrassing one is I went to see an amazing comedian the other night called uh marcel lucon, who is a brilliant, brilliant uh comedian, and I, I filled in a sheet and I didn't think that he was actually going to ask me about it, but it was about my most embarrassing amorous moment, um, of which all I'd written on there was this don't ask about me and the megadeth girl. Now, now, now, he did uh, and I was sat next to my wife as well, which made it even more awkward. But I, I, all I can tell you is is that I may be appearing in somebody else's video soon, so I so, so I will. There is embarrassed further embarrassment that you can see elsewhere, and then probably it's a bit of both. I kind of am embarrassed about it, but it was a moment I did once open for McFly. Wow, that's embarrassing, right, I think.
Speaker 2:No, that's your claim to fame, absolutely, it's definitely your claim to fame. So, you two, always a pleasure to speak to you and thank you so much for giving you time this afternoon to come on to the behavior smart podcast, and it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so so much thanks, dean.
Speaker 3:please come and visit us again anytime, and of course, I'm just going to mention if you ever consider, if you ever have more than an additional 10 minutes a day, which which I doubt, but if you do, there's always a governor's spot for you, dean, if you're interested.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what, after what you guys do for me, I think I'll have a look into that.
Speaker 3:Okay, we'll talk later.
Speaker 4:Great.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
Speaker 4:Thanks for having me, Dean. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:This was the Behaviour Smart podcast brought to you by Behaviour Smart, the incident recording system that improves behaviour. Join us next time and thanks for listening.