The Living Your Learning Podcast
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The Living Your Learning Podcast
Episode Nine | Honest Conversations: The Courage to Speak and Receive the Truth
Summary:
Why do we struggle with honest conversations? What happens when we leave crucial things unsaid? In this revealing episode, we dive deep into the authentic heart of human communication to uncover the hidden costs of avoiding difficult truths.
We've all experienced it; that knot in your stomach when feedback is vague, that spiral of overthinking when someone isn't direct with you, or that paralysis when you need to deliver an uncomfortable truth. Research suggests that unclear or withheld feedback can reduce a person's efficiency by up to 80% as they become preoccupied with deciphering unspoken messages rather than focusing on their work. The psychological impact runs surprisingly deep, sometimes causing people to question their fundamental worth and values.
But there's hope. We share two powerful frameworks that have transformed our own difficult conversations. The HONESTY approach offers a step-by-step guide for being honest and delivering direct feedback with compassion, and our RECEIVE framework helps you navigate even the moost challenging criticism.
Through personal stories and practical examples, we illustrate how honest communication; delivered with intention and received with openness, can transform relationships from tension-filled to trusting. Whether you're a leader struggling with performance conversations, someone who avoids conflict at all costs, or simply wondering how to strengthen your relationships through greater authenticity, this episode offers the guidance you need to speak your truth with kindness and hear others' truths with grace.
What conversation have you been avoiding? Your next authentic exchange might be the one that changes everything.
Takeaways:
- Honesty is crucial for effective communication.
- Dishonesty can lead to misunderstandings and emotional turmoil.
- People often avoid honesty due to fear of consequences.
- Self-awareness is key to managing responses in conversations.
- Feedback is essential for personal and professional growth.
- It's important to clarify intentions before having difficult conversations.
- Empathy plays a significant role in honest communication.
- Being grounded helps maintain composure during tough discussions.
- Curiosity can transform how we receive feedback.
- Expressing appreciation for honesty strengthens relationships.
Get In Touch:
To chat about how we can help you, please do get in touch.
Craig's Email:
craig@livingyourlearning.com
Lisa's Email:
lisabutlercoaching@gmail.com
And hello everybody. Welcome back to the living, your learning podcast with me, craig mchugh and the as ever awesome lisa butler. How are you, lisa?
Lisa:Yeah, really well. Thank you, and yourself.
Craig:Yeah, not too bad, not too bad at all. Very much looking forward to what we're going to be talking about today, which is all about honesty and honesty within communication and when people are communicating with each other, and stuff like that. So, yeah, what are your thoughts on this subject?
Lisa:so I think, um, I think it might be useful to explain the context into which we started this conversation, because only yesterday, we decided we wouldn't talk about this we did and then we was like man, alive. This is going to be really, really important. We need to share this so the context.
Craig:Do you want to go first, or shall I?
Lisa:well, we were just. We were just sharing experiences and you mentioned a frustration that you had about a potential client not being wholly honest with you, about what it felt like they weren't being completely honest with you about why they'd made a certain decision. And then we were both just sharing how, when no-transcript, much energy and time in trying to sort of put information into the missing pieces, whereas if we were just honest from the outset, then we could just save all this fuss.
Craig:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've lost count of the amount of times it's happened to me from a business perspective, you know, with prospective clients or even with existing clients, where you've been asked to support them with something or do a piece of work, and you jump through all the hoops and you go through all of the discussions and proposals and stuff like that and then, well, either sometimes you hear nothing at all or it's a no, it's like okay, well, can I understand that? Is there any feedback or whatever? And it's silent. But I think more than that as well, because I've been thinking about this a lot since yesterday and I actually I think I'm now noticing it more in just everyday conversations.
Craig:So I've been having a lot of conversations with clients and the leaders I'm working with, particularly around how they're leading people and the conversations they're having with them, and I've lost count of the amount of times over the past few weeks I've said to leaders you need to be more, more direct, you need to be more honest. And they're saying, oh, but so and so is not doing this, and they're not doing that, or expectations aren't being met, or the performance isn't quite there, or whatever isn't quite there. Well, what have? What have you said to them? What expectations have you set? What have you set out? Have you been direct? Have you been honest? No, not really done that yet. Well, you don't have a right to feel that way, then.
Craig:So I see it in everyday life all of the time, even at home, you know, with Pam or with family members. There might be a situation where you really need to say something, and I think it may be linked back to the conversation we had on our episode about people being knobheads and when you need to sometimes say do you know what? You or I'm being a bit of an obbed, or you're being a bit of an obbed and you just need to have that honesty and that honest conversation, don't you? So people can, can move forward and they can. They can put in place what they need to put in place. So, yeah, I'm just seeing it in so many different ways at the moment, and I think it's a really, really valuable conversation to have
Lisa:it's really interesting, I find, when you actually start to do some self-inquiry around, being honest, that you can see so many layers of it everywhere, just like oh no, I'd love to come for coffee with you. Wouldn't like to do that at all, I don't even like you must get together, must get you around for dinner, but we're so conditioned to being nice people that we can't say no and we can't. We can't possibly say what we think. Or my husband's brilliant at being very honest. And now the question I don't ask him anymore now is do I look nice in this? I just don't bother asking.
Lisa:So, uh, but yeah, so true yeah, I'm just I'm just thinking like if we could, we could learn how to be honest with care and to receive that.
Craig:How much easier would that make life in general a million, a million, million percent easier in so many different ways why, do you think?
Craig:why do you think people are not always honest or direct? I mean, and I'm not, and I'm not saying you know when, when you're being honest or direct, you you know you have to be a knob about it. You don't have to be an idiot about it, you can still be kind. And I think that you don't have to be an idiot about it, you can still be kind, and I think that's really really important to be kind. But why do you think, when people are communicating with each other, that they're not being honest?
Lisa:So if I go from a personal perspective first, when I'm not honest, it's because I don't feel confident enough to say what I need to say. I don't want to upset the person. If it's on a personal level, I might not have the language to say what I need to say.
Craig:Yep.
Lisa:Might not even know actually what the truth is. It just doesn't feel right, but I don't quite know what that looks like.
Craig:Mm-hmm.
Lisa:And I suppose it all comes under a banner of fear of what will happen if I say that.
Craig:Yeah, absolutely. Do you think shame or embarrassment comes into it as well, and I suppose that's packaged up there, isn't it?
Lisa:Yeah, yeah, because there's a million different topics that you could be being honest about, but I think for me it comes under a big banner of I'm afraid this will happen You'll reject me, there will be a consequence for my truthfulness and actually, as I'm getting older, I'm less and less inclined to give two hoots about the other side of it, in the sense of I can't control what someone else's response is to what I'm saying. But I absolutely know there are circumstances where I am very reticent to be truthful. Yeah, much to my chagrin
Craig:yeah, no, I get that, but I've, I've, I've been brought up to to believe, and I and I still passionately believe to this day, that honesty is the best policy, even if it is something that somebody doesn't want to hear, or maybe something you don't want to say. Honesty always has to be the best way, because it just causes too many problems when it doesn't happen. For me, it really does
Lisa:when I was a kid, I always remember being told if you've messed up, just come and tell us, because it will be twice as bad if I find out.
Craig:Yeah, same, yeah, same. And I've even had conversations recently again with people I'm working with where you know there's a huge challenge or a major issue going on and you know having conversation around what should they do? They do about it, should they own it, you know, should they put their hand up and go look, this has happened. But I want to, I want to resolve it or I want to find a solution or another way or whatever. And there is there's that fear that there's a consequence if this comes out. But I always think the consequence is worse if it doesn't come out, if you don't own it.
Craig:And I've always had the experience that, even if initially it doesn't go quite your way and I think we talked about this on our courage episode, didn't we? When we talked about, you know, being accountable and standing up for what you believe in. Sometimes it won't always go your way straight away, but in the long run it's always got to be better straight away, but in the long run it's always got to be better and I think in the long run it will turn out the way it should and the way it needs to. I really, really do so. When we chatted about this yesterday, you mentioned something really interesting around being honest, which is when we are being honest, because I think sometimes people can be honest, but maybe they're not doing it in a great way, maybe you. You said a really interesting thing, um, which I, which I made a note of just here, which was when we're doing this, are we connecting or are we correcting. What did you mean by that? I thought that was really super interesting
Lisa:so I recently did the non-violent communication course, which was brilliant, and what they said all the way through that was when we are having a conversation with somebody, the first question we have to ask ourselves is why am I having this conversation? Is it to correct the person or is it to create a connection and to have an outcome from it? And I just felt like it was really relevant for the honesty piece because, if I'm being honest to you about whatever the issue is, what is it that I'm trying to achieve? What's my intention from this conversation from the very beginning? And I wondered whether sometimes we miss that step because we jump into the feedback or we jump into the situation without checking in first. Why am I coming to this conversation?
Craig:yeah, absolutely. And um, I was just actually going to write down a word, but the word I was going to write down was I think it's both, because sometimes you're doing it too correct, but that doesn't mean you can't connect at the same time, does it. And I think if you are going to be correcting, you're giving that feedback. I think there still has to be that kindness, there still has to be that connection there, definitely so.
Lisa:I think we've made it. Sorry, I was going to say that. I think that there are times where there is no connection required. It is a correction. Like it's so ridiculously stupid. You are endangering yourself or you're endangering somebody else.
Craig:Yeah, I didn't think of that fair enough.
Lisa:I think that there is a point. There's that kind of spectrum piece, um, and I don't know how you would, I suppose, craig, watch out for the lorry, or do I just go? Oh you know, because even the oi isn't helpful, because who am I oi-ing at, it's like. So I guess I do have to connect with you first at some way, whether that's a physical connection or it's a craig, to get you to kind of be with me when I'm having this conversation, or you know whether it's a two word conversation or whatever.
Lisa:But yeah, I just want to say that, because I think that there are points where you just have to correct if it's dangerous.
Craig:Yeah, that's really interesting. I think maybe I see the relationship between connection and correction maybe slightly differently, because I get it. Yeah, sometimes you have to correct something because something really bad's about to happen, and maybe you don't do that in the best way possible. But you know, even in the example you gave you gave to stop me jumping out in front of a lorry you're doing it for a good reason. So maybe that kind of you know connection in terms of how you're, you're, you're verbalizing that isn't great, but you're doing it for a really really good reason.
Craig:I wonder, though, with this connect, connecting, correcting thing I think people correct for not so good reasons like what so they're trying to make people look silly, they're trying to prove a point or press a point, they're trying to make themselves look better, they're trying to win something, an argument, whatever. So I think there's there's the correcting thing that you you need to do, but you're doing it for good reasons and then sometimes you just gotta get on with it and doing it because it could be, you know, person could get hurt or whatever, or it could be something you know less serious, where you know you need to give somebody some feedback on something. So that connection is is really important and how you verbalize that and talk through that. But I think sometimes people correct and yeah, and it's not for for good purposes, it's, it's for them, not for the other person. What do you think about that?
Lisa:I think that's true. I've certainly experienced that myself and I've done it myself, like the, making a point just because it's not necessarily helpful, but it's because I'm feeling angry or vengeful or whatever it is at that moment, and then that comes back to a lack of self-regulation and a lack of self-awareness. Yeah, which takes us back to what's my intention here. So in all of this, there is a huge amount of responsibility on the speaker, the initiator of the honesty, to be grounded, to be aware, to be mindful about what they're saying. And I don't mean it in a hippy dippy going on a retreat type of mindfulness, but in a we come back to self-awareness every single every single episode but it's like without it you are rampaging through, you're a bull in a china shop.
Lisa:If you're not aware of what you're saying or doing, you've got to start there always. Where where am I starting from in this? And that's not always easy, because you know, life is life and sometimes we're not quite in the capacity and headspace to do that. But intentionally or having an intentionality around trying to have that, I think, is really important.
Craig:Yeah, I 100% agree with that. So I think we touched on a couple of these at the start, but I'd really like to get clear on this and why all of this is so important before maybe we can go into some of those strategies that we came up with around how to have these honest conversations and also how to receive them as well. Um is, what is the impact of dishonesty or not having honest, direct conversations with people when they're needed? What's been the impact on you? Because I know you've had you. You you've had some quite big examples of this, haven't you?
Lisa:So I feel, like on a person on a professional level, like on a one-to-one basis, actually it's. It's actually on any in any, on a on a personal basis the impact for me as a person who reflects a lot and ruminates about conversations and overthinks because that's just my natural tendency to want to please others and to know what's going on the lack of feedback leaves me spiraling into a well, what did I do? What happened? Did something go wrong? Was there something that didn't happen? Did something need to happen?
Lisa:And kind of like picking through the event with, like, not even a fine tooth comb, but sort of shrinking myself down into mitochondria size and kind of like trying to get in the weeds and be like what was it? What was it that caused you to respond like that, for that thing to happen? Like what? What happened? Which has at times taken me down a really crappy rabbit hole where I've ended up becoming just exhausted and actually burnt out by the process of trying to figure that out. Now, I know a lot of people won't know what that feels like.
Lisa:I understand that, but for those people who do understand that, that can be debilitating and it can take away your energy and your focus so much that you are unable to to function at a normal level because in the back of your mind there is something going on. I read somewhere that a person in a professional setting, making an ill thought out comment to someone else can reduce a person's efficiency by up to 80 percent no because they are like they're not. They're unable to focus on the task. They're focusing on the comment that was made. And where did that come from.
Lisa:Why did you say that and what did I do and what happened? But they don't have the relationship to be able to go back and say, craig, you made a comment to me earlier on about this. The story I'm telling myself is this Can we have a conversation about that? Like people don't have the safety in an organization to say those kind of things and say people are firing and forgetting, like chucking in a grenade in the room and be like I'm off for coffee now. Bye, james, and off they go. And it's it. Poor james is sat there going well, so yeah, I've, I've seen, experienced it.
Craig:I've probably been guilty of it, to be fair
Lisa:it's massive and, and I think it erodes trust. It does it destroys relationships.
Craig:Yeah, that's huge and yeah, you're right. For us overthinkers it can literally be debilitating, can't it? Many, many years ago? A conversation that I had where there was a lack of honesty and clarity around something that happened and the only way I can describe it and I actually find it hard to talk about this and when I look back at it, it was in the scheme of things, it wasn't huge or serious, but for me at the time it really felt that way because I felt like I was being criticized and judged and my capability was being criticized and judged and stuff like that.
Craig:It absolutely floored me. I probably said it was a good few years ago now, but I probably didn't leave the house for a good few days and only spoke to Pam. I just didn't want to know. It was all I could do to get out of bed. You know, it really put me in a hole where all you're doing is focusing and thinking about that, to the point where it just got so ridiculous where I literally had to have a word myself physically in the mirror and go. You've got to stop this. It's ridiculous, snap out of it. You can't do anything about it. Is there any learning you can take from it yeah, maybe I could have done that, that and that. Okay, we make sure we do it next time and we move on. And I had to make a point of doing that because, like you said, I went down such a dark hole it was horrible, it really really was Just because of one throwaway conversation or a few throwaway comments within that conversation. The impact is just just huge. What about when sorry go on?
Lisa:no, I'm just going to say I'm listening to us both thinking, yeah, that's really real, and really feeling into that experience, because I know it, I understand it and I'm really conscious that for some people that that would be like what?
Lisa:Like oh, you're just being such a drama queen about that, like you're just totally taking it to heart.
Lisa:But I think, when you, if you overlay this experience of unspoken criticism or perceived rejection or whatever that is for the individual, for that circumstance, if you also then add over the number of people that we have at the moment who have mental health challenges, if you then take into people's personal preferences, whether they're an introvert, extrovert, whether they're task orientated people orientated, if you are a task orientated extrovert, talking to an introvert people, person and you don't give them feedback, it is, it is actually physically painful and and I feel like this element of relationship isn't really talked about that the damage that you can physically do to somebody through the through what you say and what you don't say, and actually that the duty of care becomes so much greater, not just, as you know, organisational positional leaders, as individual leaders, as if we look at each other as ourselves, as self-leaders, like we all have such a responsibility to understand the impact of ourselves on other people yeah,
Craig:I couldn't agree more with that.
Craig:And you know, if I just just go back to the situation I described, you know, when you have got somebody who's more introverted and extroverted, like me, who really, really, really, really cares about what they do and the quality of what they do, and maybe if someone else has a bit of an issue with perfectionism as well, you know that stuff it cuts deep, really, really, really deep.
Craig:And when I think about that conversation, it wouldn't have been too different a conversation to conversations colleagues would have in the workplace or a manager would have with a team member, or leader would have with with with a team member, and and so if that can happen to people you know, seasoned, older than we, would like to be professionals who have been around the block a few times and, you know, know our way around and stuff like that, if that can have it happen to us and impact us, what impact do you think it has on on younger people, people who are really early on in their career, who maybe don't have the skills that we have?
Craig:I mean it's, it's absolutely huge. If you're not giving that feedback very well, if you're not having those honest, direct conversations, then all, then, all of a sudden you get to a point where you know that person is now on a disciplinary because they're not performing very well and they're like. But what, why? Why have I been given a warning or told off for not performing and nobody's told said anything to me before? How can I go from a hero to zero in two seconds? And that can be. I've seen it so many times recently as well, and it can absolutely destroy people
Lisa:and that lack of congruence in the messaging that you're trying to give somebody can lead to people becoming quite confused about themselves, because they then try and put themselves into a box but they don't really know what the box is.
Lisa:They're just trying to figure it out from the bits of information you've given them and it can cause them to really lose touch with themselves, their values, what's real for them, what's true for them? Because they're trying to please and to fit in. And then that internal stress and the guilt that people carry because something wasn't right, but they don't really know what it was, but something really wasn't right so it must be really bad, because you can't tell me what that is, that creates tension and holding, that stress and that emotion that causes dis-ease, that causes tension and depression and all sorts of things anxiety, all of that and it's.
Lisa:It would be really easy to just be like it's just a comment. But it's not just a comment and if the comment has caused damage in some way, there is again that responsibility to come back and repair to it, to acknowledge, to be self-aware and to be very much, that was absolutely not my intention and then to go away and learn next time I have to give that kind of comment. How might I do that differently rather than yeah, you're the problem because you're just really sensitive. You know, we don't
Craig:yeah you're. So you're particularly with that last bit. You've hit the nail on the head there. And if I think about my example and I've had many examples like that, but also examples I've come across recently where, particularly when you really don't know what's gone wrong or what you've done, but you, if, you, if, if, like us, you, you have a set of values that you really really hold dear and you do everything you can to try and bring those values to life and live those values, and then suddenly you feel questioned and you feel like those values aren't good enough anymore. That makes people question themselves, but not just in a oh, what could I've done different, or what could I've done better, or what lesson can I learn. It makes them question themselves to their very core am I a good enough person? And whatever else comes with that. It's super, super serious. Yeah, I mean, the impact is huge, isn't it? it's absolutely massive
Lisa:and I think, and, and I think there is a responsibility on everybody to understand what those activations are, those triggers, where so yeah as a young child.
Lisa:My family did not have the language or skills to be able to articulate conflict at all, so one person would shout a lot and then one person would shrivel and um, and I and I remember as a kid, you know, going to my I'd come home from school, I would go to the window and my mum would be stood at the window smoking a fag, arms crossed, looking out the window and I'd be like mum, what's wrong?
Lisa:And she wouldn't speak to me. And it was because I now know she would be so flooded, so overwhelmed with whatever she was feeling that she did not have the capacity to say there's nothing, you haven't done anything wrong, darling, you know, this is, this is not, this is a grown up thing. But you, this has nothing to do with you wherever they were, for three, four, five days, as a young I mean we're talking five, six, seven I would not be spoken to for that amount of time because they did not have the capacity to be able to talk to me. They could only be, they could only do what they could do for themselves. And so what that did is it taught me to be hyper vigilant, hypersensitive to other people's moods, hyper vigilant, hypersensitive to other people's moods.
Lisa:Words energy, so that I could like read the room when I, when I walked home. Is it safe?
Lisa:is it all good? Yeah, and another thing we. So we have to be conscious of what we're bringing in the room with us. And if I didn't know that I, as an adult now I know I'm really hypersensitive to stuff. So so I have a process of filtering out is that them or is that me?
Lisa:But if I didn't know that, if I hadn't done what's known as shadow work, but if I hadn't looked at the things that were a little bit dark and gloomy for me, I would just assume that's you, but actually that's my stuff that I'm then projecting onto you as a person. But if I'm then the person that's doing the words and the damage, again not aware of my stuff, I'm also bringing that in the room. And so I feel like one of the big responsibilities that we have as human beings in this moment in time is being brave enough to go and look in the shadowy corners and learn about those things for ourselves, so that when we come out and we're with our families, we're in the workplace and we're with our communities, that we're not bringing that shit with us because it doesn't belong to anyone else
Craig:but that goes, that goes for everyone, doesn't it? the person giving the message, also the person receiving
Lisa:yes, , like it is absolutely our responsibility to understand. Why am I responding like that? Like yeah, you might have been a knob the way you just spoke to me about something, but why am I responding like that? Why have I gone really quiet? Why? Why have I gone all shaky? Why am I literally shriveling up Like what's going on? And there's that inquiry of why did I, why did I speak to that person like that? Where was I coming from? But ? I receive it like that. Yeah That piece of work is. That's the brave work, but that's a topic for another day.
Craig:Yeah, that is.
Lisa:but it's very much linked, I think.
Craig:Yeah no, a million percent it is. So yesterday we came up with some anagrams. Is that what you call them? Is that the word? Yeah, that's right, acronym.
Craig:yeah, acronym, I was getting mixed up, uh, around having the conversations, but also receiving the conversations as well, and I I think these are awesome. So our first one is when you need to have an honest conversation, and we've actually based it around the word honesty. So should we go through them one at a time?
Lisa:Let's do it.
Craig:Awesome. So these are everyone who's watching and listening. These are kind of our ideas and tactics and techniques and strategies for having the conversations, but also for being on the receiving end of the conversations as well. So for having the conversation, we've packaged it up in the word honesty and we've got a tactic or a technique for each letter. So give me an h bob. So the h is about what?
Lisa:so the H is about the intention. So it's like, if you, what is the intention behind it? So you're holding the intention before you have a conversation. What am I, why am I having this conversation and how am I being? Am I being kind or am I being cruel?
Lisa:Am I being cutting or, like Am I being cutting? Or am I being clear, like just really holding the intention of what's about to come out of your mouth?
Craig:I doing it to press a point with an argument, to make the other person look silly, or am I doing it from a genuine place of care, because something needs to be different? So, yeah, that's really important, that intention, holding that intention. So next, give me an oh, please, bob. What's the oh?
Lisa:so the oh is about owning your truth. Um, in this, in this perspective of speaking from I feel not craig, you're late, you're this, you're that, which is all about accusation and judgment. It's, I feel, I feel, frustrated. I noticed, I observed, I saw like leading with fact, but it's owning that and not being apologetic about it. It's just factual. This thing happened
Craig:really, yeah, I love that one. And you said something really interesting around this when we chatted um yesterday, which was that there are three versions of the truth. Aren't there? There's mine, there's yours, and then what actually happened?
Lisa:yeah, I, I don't know. I've always thought this and I don't know I must have heard it years ago. But actually we, we will both come off this call and have a different perspective of how it's gone, of what we said, of what happened, and then there'll be somebody watching it impartially or listening and be like, no, that's not what happened um, yeah, totally so I think truth is about perspective as well
Craig:because we all have our filters that we view things through, don't we? And that will change how we perceive it, so I think we have to be careful about that. Yeah, absolutely cool. I really love that one. So next up is n, which is what What matters? What's this one about? I really like this one as well
Lisa:so we don't want any fluff don't want, um, we don't want any. I'm just trying to think. I'll just keep it at a fluff like, just say what it is. What is the issue? Um, say, get to the heart of it, that's the point brave and just say
Craig:yeah, absolutely. I was even having a conversation with somebody, a leader, yesterday that I've been working with who, who's trying to coach and develop a member of their team, um, and I said just just say what needs to be said, just tell them, tell them what's missing, tell them what's the expectation, but then support them and and have a coaching conversation around, okay. So what are you finding difficult? What's getting in the way, what have you tried or what haven't you tried? But just get to the point, cut out the faff, cut out the fluff, just get to the point and just say what needs to be said. But you can still do that in a kind way. I think I'd say I really like this. That one, our next one, yeah, I mean, this one is a superpower for me, which is the e for empathize pretty much does what it says on the tin, doesn't it really?
Lisa:yeah, , and empathizing doesn't mean that you have to like also feel what that person's feeling. You don't have to agree with what they're feeling, but it's about acknowledging how so you're angry about what happened in the meeting earlier on, so you're frustrated that I'm late like it's acknowledging it. Like you might not think you're late, you might not be angry, but it's acknowledging that person's feeling exactly that, even if it's different from yours, so that you have that
Craig:yeah, a million percent agree with that. People often often say to me oh, empathy is about putting yourself in someone else's shoes. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't view it that way. I see it as listening through their ears and seeing through their eyes, because if you put your yourself in their shoes, it's still you. But if you look through their eyes and listen through their ears, it's about recognizing what they're experiencing, understanding what they're experiencing and then responding appropriately and then finding a way forward for it if you need to. Empathy is really important and this is coming from who you.
Craig:not naturally empathetic, I've admitted. admit it Just ask my wife, pam. She often says I'm dead inside when there's something on the telly and she's like what? And I'm like what is your major malfunction? And she's like, oh, just because you're dead inside. But I've learned that empathy is a superpower, it's a skill that you need and I have to go there on purpose. But the way I've learned to do it is I don't have to agree with that person, I just have to see it from their point of view. That's empathy, really, really important one there. Next one stay grounded. The s. What's this one about? I love this one as well
Lisa:so you know, in confrontational feedback conversations, arguments our bodies can kind of take over and we don't really have any. We lose control about what we're saying.
Lisa:We might stop we might have gone, puce in the face or whatever. So this is about staying grounded and it's about being really conscious of my breathing. What's my stance, where's my energy, where are my shoulders? Right, you know, keeping our nervous system calm so that we can have a conversation, adult to adult or adult to child, whoever you're having the conversation with, in a kind, respectful, composed, calm way. We can, we can be honest, we can be angry without being shouty and dysregulated. We just have to be grounded to do that
Craig:absolutely so this is about managing your emotions, isn't it just something that's popped into my head and I don't know if this would fit, but would staying grounded also be about recognizing if you or the other person, or both, are within that drama triangle?
Lisa:yeah, I think so. I would say that being grounded is about regulating your tone, your body, your nervous system, which then creates the emotion. Being aware of that, you can then go oh, I've noticed my chest is tight, I'm not breathing and I'm really shouting. Okay, I'm now in persecutor space. Okay, I'm just gonna take a breath yeah, yeah, yeah or I'm just gonna step, I'm just gonna go and take a breath. I'll come back in a moment and we'll finish this conversation.
Lisa:But again, that is a self-awareness thing
Craig:yeah, definitely but yeah, absolutely and and for me, I don't think you can self-regulate unless you're self-aware. You've got to have that self-awareness piece first. Million percent the t for honesty is trust. Why is this one important?
Lisa:so this is just about trusting yourself that if you feel like it needs to be said, it probably needs to be said, and trusting the relationship that I'm gonna say this because I it needs to be said for our relationship. I'm saying it because it matters. I'm saying it because I care. I'm saying it because if I don't say it, I would be negligent in some way by not saying it. So it's coming from best intention and also trusting that you're in saying in saying the thing that needs to be said. You're saying it that it matters, but you're not saying it because you need to control the outcome or the response.
Lisa:You're saying it because it needs to be said
Craig:yeah, I love that, not, yes, saying it because you're not trying to control the outcome. I really love that. And and even just what you said there in terms of what you say in these situations, you know, even saying, look, I'm I'm saying this because I care it. It might not come out great because I'm not great at sometimes saying these things, but I really really need to say this because I really really care, and I think sometimes, you know, starting off with that kind of opening to these conversations can be a really, really effective way of doing it. Next, the why. The last letter, in honesty, is your responsibility. So you've touched on this already, but but let's just go over it again so being honest is an individual act of leadership.
Lisa:It is not about people pleasing, it's not about controlling what happens. It is your responsibility to say what needs to be said with clarity, with compassion, so that it is said and the message is delivered. You can't control anything else, so it's about what is yours and what is theirs.
Craig:Yeah.
Craig:I love that and I think, as long as we go through these letters, maybe you know we think about these different things when we're going into this conversation. But, yeah, I think if you have the intent, the kindness, the compassion around it, the empathy, you manage your emotions. That's all you can do and that is all your responsibility, because we can't control how the other person is going to feel about that. But we can do everything we can to make sure that when we walk away we can say to ourselves I delivered that in the best way I could and it came from the very best place, which was from my heart Love that. So that's how to have an honest conversation. And we also came up with one for when you're on the other side. So you're receiving this honesty, and we based that on the word receive, which was nice and innovative and creative, but it really, really works. So when you are on the other end of the conversation, someone's being honest with you, you need to receive it. So the R Bob is to regulate. So what's this one about?
Lisa:So this is about just you. Don't need to go into fight or flight, you don't need to go into panic mode. Just breathe, just stay in your seat. You're about to get some feedback. No one's going to shoot you. It's just someone's going to have an honest conversation with you. So it's just just breathe
Craig:yeah, absolutely.
Craig:And again, that self-awareness bit is so important. So don't be on autopilot, be very, very present in that moment, regulate yourself, don't go into that fight, flight, freeze response. And, yeah, regulate, regulate what, what you're feeling, so you can be as present as possible. I love this next one and this one, for for me it's helped me out so many times is the E for receive, is engage, curiosity. What's this one about?
Lisa:It's simply about what can I learn from this conversation. I can only speak from personal experience, but so often when people want to have an honest conversation, I immediately assume I've done something wrong or they're going to tell me off, or, oh God, I'm in trouble and I start looking at all the ways it was a bad thing rather than brilliant. Someone's going to give me some feedback. How, how can I be a better person because of this feedback? How can I do better at my job? How can I really? What this person's going to tell me is going to make me, you know, a couple of percent more aware, like, how amazing is that cool? Yeah, I'm open for it,
Craig:yeah, absolutely, and I've done exactly the same and really lent into it, been really, really curious because I wanted to be better, and it then actually helps the other person say what they need to say, not on every occasion, but on most occasions. It then helps the other person say what they need to say and, to be honest, there was that one occasion I mentioned where I actually did try to be curious. Okay, well, what's going on? What have I missed? What haven't we done? What can I do better? And just didn't get anything at all. So that was on the person giving the message, not on, not on my part on receiving the message, because I was all up for being curious and leaning into it and to own it, because I think the other thing around this one as well, engaging curiosity is to just to whatever comes your way, is to completely own it as well, and I think that can really really help with that conversation, that relationship. So, yeah, I love that one.
Lisa:I find I don't know if you ever come across this. I find if I'm having a conversation with somebody and they're not curious about what I've just said, they don't go. You know, like if you would say I don't know, say we're having a conversation about a relationship that we had or something, or something had happened and I said I don't like it when you do this. You know when people go rather than gosh, I didn't even know, I did that yeah tell me some more about that.
Lisa:Like, what do I sound like? What do I do? What's the situation that I'm doing that in? Like yeah, that was really helpful to know. I'm always a bit befuddled that people are not more curious. I love the word curious. I love the whole curiosity thing and it's like why are you not interested in this conversation?
Craig:Yeah, I don't get it either. I mean, maybe it's because I question everything. I'm a big questioner, I like to know things, I like to know how things have happened and why they've happened. That includes me, even if I haven't done so well. So, yeah, yeah, be nosy, be curious, ask questions. It really really does help. The next one, c clarify gently again this. I think these two are really close for thing, but I love clarify gently, so for me, this is about when you're being curious is going okay. So can you, can you just explain that, or can you just give me an example of that, or can you show me how I could do that?
Lisa:Yeah, so I think it's just about clarifying the other person's. Can you just, can I just clarify what you just said? Did you just tell me that you're frustrated because I'm always late and that means that you think that I'm not committed to the team? Yes, that's exactly what I mean, because then that gives you an opportunity to say I can see why you would think that, but it's actually not. That's not true, because so it's just. The clarification piece just means that you understand what's being asked or what's being told, rather than the brain making up its own story. Well, I heard you say this, this and this, and therefore, with all of my points of reference gained over a whole world of lifetime, my, my assumption is you're now saying you think I'm rubbish at my job. No, no, that's not what I'm saying at all.
Lisa:No, you definitely just said that no, I didn't, and then yeah.
Craig:But also, I think it opens up other conversations around. You know, let's just use the late one. I think that's that's a classic example, you know, I think we've all experienced that. But it leads it leads into a bigger conversation around what's actually going on. And it could be that, yeah, the person's meant to start at nine and they turn up a quarter past nine but it could be because they've got a, they've got to stop in on their, their really elderly, sick parents in the morning and there's nobody else to look after them. And it's like, okay, well, I didn't know that. Okay, well, how can we help with that? And then the other person is like, yeah, I can see how that would look, but you know, I'll work through my lunch, I'll stay later. You know, I'll make it up some some other way rather than just creating all of these assumptions. I think that's really that clarity and that curiosity. I think both ways is really important for me. Um e, extract the gold. What's this one about?
Lisa:this is just basically, rather than regurgitating the story to your mates at lunchtime and saying, oh, he's such a knob, I hate him. It's a. What's the gold? What was the really useful part? Even if that hurts to hear, what did I really need to know from that conversation? What can, what's useful? That's it, what's useful.
Craig:Yeah, and that in itself is gold. I don't know about you and this is completely unrelated, but I've got the theme tune for the game show Going for Gold going off in my head, nice, just thought I'd share that. I'm not going to sing it everyone, don't you worry. Next one, the I is yeah, I love this one as well. Integrate, not internalise. What's this one about?
Lisa:So this is about holding that feedback lightly.
Lisa:So it's almost like you could put it in your hands and look at it and just say, right, what do I need to keep, what do I need to hold on to that is relevant and important, and then let the rest just blow away, just let it go really
Craig:yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think again I just want to add because these conversations might be as a result of receiving a bit of feedback is that, even if it's something you don't want to hear, feedback is so important, it's so valuable, and I know everyone says, yeah, they like feedback, but I've not really come across anyone who truly, truly loves getting feedback, because I think everyone might have the feeling in their stomach that they think they're in trouble or done something wrong. But feedback is really important. You cannot progress without feedback. You can't evolve and get through life and develop without feedback. Everything you do, everything you say, every action you take provides feedback, and from that feedback you can take stuff that's useful and you can take stuff that is not useful and then you don't need. So, yeah, um, I think that that bit's really important is about holding on to the stuff you can use, but there will be some stuff you just need to let blow away. Yeah, I love that.
Craig:V. Oh, this is interesting one. This is validate your own worth. What's this one?
Lisa:I think it's just. It would be really easy to take feedback. I almost say criticism, but I'm not even going to use that. It's criticism is feedback. It's just feedback. You could take that feedback and think there's something wrong with me, like I should be able to do that better. Or Nancy on table four, she doesn't make those mistakes. I'm so rubbish. This is self-talk, but this is about growth. Feedback gives us an opportunity to grow and we can grow and make mistakes and still be really good people.
Lisa:It's not related to your worth.
Craig:no, it's not, and you know how, and I've said it so many times. I know we don't like making mistakes, but again, progression is not. Evolution has not been possible without pretty much every single human being since the dawn of time having made a mistake at some point. Even all the super successful people, or what we deem successful based on you know where they've got to or what they've earned or whatever they've all made mistakes. You can't grow without a mistake, and I think for for me, it's really useful to reframe the mistake, as this isn't enabling me to find a different way, a better way forward, and to and to improve. So, yeah, I don't don't let those mistakes impact your worth, because I think mistakes are really important. I really really do, and the e the last letter in receive is this is so important as well.
Craig:This has worked for me so in fact, I can picture a conversation where this has actually worked.
Craig:Express appreciation
Lisa:just thank you for being honest with me
Craig:so important.
Craig:There was one time a band camp obviously it wasn't a band camp many, many, many, many years ago early on in my career and I got some. I got some feedback as part of my appraisal. It was a 360 thing that we all got and one of one of the senior leaders who I deliver training for in his operation provided some feedback as part of this 360. I I was really disappointed, I was gutted, but I thought, no, I'm gonna go and find out more about this because I didn't really get it. Either I or I needed to understand more. So I went and spoke to him and I said, oh, can I, can I speak to you for a moment? He went, yeah, sure, said it's about the feedback you gave me on 360, and his face just drained and he looked really scared and I said I'm just really really curious to understand more about it and to maybe get some, some pointers from you about exactly what you need, what that looks like, what that doesn't look like, and so on and so forth. And he's like, really, I went, yeah, honestly, and I leaned into it and he described it in more detail and I'm like, yeah, do you know what? You've got a point there and I really owned it. I was so proud of myself. And then at the end I said to him do you know what? Thank you so much. This has been so, so useful. It really has. And, yeah, I'm going to put all of this in place, but please keep giving me the feedback. Please keep telling me if it's not quite working, working out or what I'm doing well or whatever.
Craig:And our relationship improved no end. And to the point, six months later and I'll always remember this, I was working really, really late. It was a Friday night, I was a trainer in a call center, so everyone was down the pub. It was a really kind of young pub culture environment and it was eight o'clock. I was still producing training material for a last minute course we had to deliver that next week.
Craig:And in he walked with a really posh bottle of wine and he just popped it on the desk. There was a little card stuck to it saying thank you. He didn't say a word to me and he walked off and I looked at it. I nearly cried. Just the best thing. And all of that came about because of this really great, honest conversation that we had and I'll tell you it just improved our relationship no end, and after that we were both really honest with each other and sometimes those conversations were very direct, like we would disagree, but it was okay for us to do that and, honestly, it had such a positive, positive impact. So, yeah, just wanted to share that.
Lisa:No, I love that, and what it sounds like is it gave you freedom within your relationship to continue to be honest and to bring that. It wasn't an issue anymore. It's just like okay, please don't do it like craig when you do it like that. When you do, you know, whatever it is, is it then it's more just a little. Oh yeah, I forgot about thanks. Thanks very much, exactly that. You're having a go at me again. You know it's not, it's exactly that.
Lisa:There's nothing egotistical about it, it's just a thing. I'm just giving you some feedback. It's a bit like you've got toilet tissue stuck on the bottom of your shoe.
Lisa:I'm just telling you
Craig:yeah, or your fly's undone or whatever. Yeah, absolutely yeah, it's exactly like that. Yeah, so, wow, what, what a topic that that didn't go where I thought it was going to go, but super, super interesting. So what would be your LYL podcast? ponder point, lisa, to wrap up with
Lisa:where can you be, where can you, where can you give more honest communication and how can you receive it differently?
Craig:yeah, I love that one. Mine would be, I think, around that self-awareness regulation bit. When you need to have that conversation and when you're receiving it is to, to, yeah, really check yourself, be present, regulate yourself, use these tactics that we, that we shared here, because they do honestly work. And the other one was, yeah, what really resonated with me is what you said just cut the faff, cut the fluff, just say what needs to be said, but just make sure you do it in the right way. Yeah, that would be my LYL podcast, ponder point. Wowza, what an awesome conversation, my friend, as always, and I can't wait to see what we come up with on our next episode and what we chat about on that. So everyone, thank you for watching and listening on whichever channel you're watching or listening on, please don't forget and please, please do, because it helps us get these conversations out even further, because that's all we want, is to give us a like, a follow or subscribe, and we will both see you next time, see ya.
