Roger Furrer - The Philosophy of a Game That Never Gets Easier

In this episode of From Noise to Sound, we explore the evolving world of golf and its growing popularity in Switzerland. My guest is Roger Furrer, General Manager of Golf Club Lucerne and former professional golfer, who shares insights from both his competitive career and his experience leading one of Switzerland’s respected golf clubs.

We begin by looking at how golf in Switzerland has evolved from being seen as an exclusive pastime to becoming a more accessible leisure activity. Roger explains how the COVID period accelerated this shift, as many people looked for outdoor activities during lockdowns. The sport experienced a noticeable surge in interest, attracting many new and younger players. Today Switzerland has around 100,000 golfers and roughly 100 courses, giving the sport fresh momentum.

A key theme in our conversation is how the image of golf is changing. While it was traditionally associated with older generations, younger players are increasingly discovering the sport. Social media and changing lifestyles have helped reshape its perception, presenting golf as a lifestyle activity that combines sport, nature and social interaction.

We also discuss the mental side of golf, which makes it unique among sports. Roger highlights the psychological challenge of the game, where players constantly compete against themselves. The mix of frustration, focus and occasional moments of success creates an experience that keeps golfers coming back.

Beyond the game itself, Roger shares insights into the challenges of running a golf club in Switzerland, from high land costs to evolving membership models. Clubs today must balance tradition with modern expectations by offering flexible access, strong community experiences and welcoming environments.

Finally, Roger reflects on his personal journey from a young athlete playing multiple sports to representing Switzerland internationally as a professional golfer. Today he uses that experience to help shape the future of the sport and inspire a new generation of players.

How do today’s leaders cut through the noise and shape the future?

In each episode of From Noise to Sound, host Dr. Dimitrios Marinos, from the Department of Marketing and Communication at HSLU, dives deep with CEOs, Board Members, and industry innovators to uncover the forces reshaping our world. Through insightful conversations, he explores topics like digital transformation, consumer behavior, and sustainability, revealing strategies and innovations that are driving real change.

Gain actionable insights and fresh perspectives on navigating a complex business landscape. Tune in each month to sharpen your view on leadership, tech-driven success, and what’s next in marketing and beyond.

New episodes every month, brought to you by HSLU, Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts.

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Transcript

[0:00] Hello and welcome to the podcast from noise to sound today i

[0:02] have a very very special topic to discuss something that is also very close to my heart i started playing golf around two years and a half before so i thought golf is something that is very much established in switzerland but also globally at this moment and it's let's let's see if it's hyped or it's really here to stay so i have with me someone who actually knows golf inside out he's been a pro and also a general manager from golf club lucerne so i would like to welcome roger to the to the podcast thank you very much for being here today thank you for having me thank you very much now it's actually

[0:38] very very interesting also for for me and i guess in general to understand a little bit more deeper, what is golf for switzerland and why it is becoming so relevant uh you know even more now in the younger generations right you mentioned to me before hey things have started changing a little bit after Covid. What happened then?

[0:58] Um, yeah, obviously golf, golf already had the boom in the eighties and nineties. Um, before, before then there was very limited golf courses in Switzerland. Golf was very expensive. People played abroad. Yeah. And then 80, 90s, a lot of golf courses, uh, were built golf got a bit more affordable. Um, then the Migros came in, they built their own golf courses, which definitely also improved the image of golf. And then, yeah, you had COVID with a lot of people stayed at home, home office. People wanted to go out in the nature yeah a lot of people started playing golf again new golfers came to the game.

[1:36] A lot of more younger people as well I think the image of these old people playing golf changed a little bit I think it got a bit cool again to play golf and the numbers actually show the people who started doing COVID they stay in the game they still love it we have about 100,000 golfers in Switzerland now 100,000 golfers. Yeah, and about 100 golf courses. So it is one of the biggest sports, especially for people with a license, yeah.

[2:07] So that's, of course, a challenge, right? So we discussed about it also. Now, social media, of course, elevated golf a lot more. I mean, elevated golf from elite sport, let's say something that you couldn't touch, to affordable luxury, let's say. So people come into golf, try it. They can also afford it. They can have fun. And as you mentioned before, COVID helps. Now you are out, you're in the nature, you walk, you play golf. So, for me, it's also interesting to see now younger generations, right? Younger generations coming into golf. What do they appreciate more, let's say, in respect to the older generations? You know, older generations were going there. They were networking. They were spending the day, as you mentioned. I mean, especially in your golf club, 1903 founded. It was a completely different world. What is a side, let's say, to the golf? What's the younger generations now? enjoy more?

[3:09] I don't know if the advantages of golf are very different from the young and older people. They enjoy being out in the nature. It's nice that between shots you can talk, so you can have a social, enjoy your social life as well. It is a nice surrounding. Often there's a nice restaurant as well. So it's definitely a place you want to spend your free time. I think the most important thing for young people is that there's other young people at the course. I think back in the days when you came as a young person, you only saw old people. So that doesn't attract. Now you see more and more younger people and everything. And I think that's the most attractive point for the people. Yeah, I absolutely agree also as well.

[3:52] So for me, one of the things is, you know, younger generation in general, you know, everyone that plays golf, you know, has to spend, you know, this time. And as I mentioned before, for me, I'm told I was playing basketball. So competition was before for me was.

[4:09] The opposite person you know the other team the other person the frustrating thing with golf is that the competition is you yourself and you cannot blame anyone you cannot blame that the opponent was better you play your blame yourself and that's a completely different mindset in golf and you've been a pro how do you manage that such frustration it's definitely one of the most mental sport days that's that's for sure that's why also all professional golfer go to a psychologist and everything it's just part of the game and but that's also what makes golf so interesting you know that one day you you play like a pro and the next day you feel like a beginner and but the day you feel like a beginner that's the day you want to come back the next day and play better again, and um yeah it's just it's a sport of nuances it's just small details make a big difference and that makes it very fun and it's also quite cool that the average golfer can on one hole beat like a professional golfer. That's an interesting very interesting part. But then on the next hole obviously the opposite and having a consistency is very challenging you see it on the top tours like Tiger Woods being number one for a long time and now he's way down it's still the same golfer but it's just if little details don't fit but it's going to change your result, you know? Yeah, of course. Exactly what you mentioned. I mean, and that's what I think sometimes.

[5:37] If, I mean, golf does to you, it kind of happens that in one hole,

[5:41] you're playing so well that it keeps your motivation so high. And then you move on and then you get the frustration, the ups and downs, which every sports has, to be honest, which is absolutely fine. But I want to take you a little bit back in Switzerland and golf.

[5:58] How do you see golf in Switzerland? What is special here or not so special here? What do you see, let's say, I mean, you said 100 golf clubs. 100,000 people, so 10,000 people per golf club. 1,000 people per Sorry, yeah, mathematics.

[6:19] So for me, it's interesting to understand how much is there in Switzerland a golf nature, let's say, inside the clubs, but also into the society culture, let's say. Especially if you compare it to countries like the US or the UK or something, there's no golf tradition in Switzerland. In these counties, like for example in the US, there's a golf channel which 24 hours shows golf. The biggest golf tournaments are watched from everybody. I think it's comparable to Switzerland with skiing. If Lauberhorn or something happens, everybody's watching. This happens in the UK and the US with golf. So that tradition is definitely missing in Switzerland. And, There's different aspects, for example. One of the aspects, it's more expensive, golf in Switzerland. There's two reasons for that. One is land is limited and it's expensive. And workforce, yeah, workforce is obviously a lot more expensive than in these countries as well. And to run a golf course, you need 20 and more people. So it's always going to be a bit more on the expensive side.

[7:28] In the U.S., you can play golf for $15 a round or something. That's not possible here. so it obviously makes it more like a middle class to upper class sport and and i think that's also the image golf has and we golf is pushing hard to get younger people to get more people involved and everything but it's never going to be the same tradition as you have in in countries like the u.s and and the u.s it might take time it might take time and it's also you know as you mentioned in switzerland small country you don't have the space some of the times and if it doesn't grow and people can get frustrated

[8:06] you know finding a spot to play and a good day it's always a challenge if you're not a member and i want to come back to this point as a member so a lot of people who doesn't play golf doesn't understand what is a member let's say in a golf club i mean.

[8:21] Obviously you have the possibility as you mentioned to subscribe to migros and you can play to a short, to a large variety of clubs, but you have also memberships. What is exactly that and why it is a part, let's say, of golf club, let's say? What is the advantage of being a member?

[8:40] I think especially in the traditional golf courses, back in the days, it was the only option to play golf in Switzerland. There was not many golf courses, so if you want to be in a club, you had to join. You have to pay a joining fee and then your member um, Often the people used to spend the whole free time there. It was their life beside work.

[9:01] They spent their weekends there. They spent their evenings there. It was just like a family for them. We still have, there's still traditional golf course. We are one of them where it's mainly members which are ready to commit to join a club like that. But as I said, there's more and more people who have different hobbies. They don't want to spend quite as much time playing golf. They play maybe a couple times a year or something. And for them, public golf is obviously a perfect fit. And I think golf courses in Switzerland are doing a great job at having more options, especially also for young people. If you only play that amount of times a year or if you only play during the week or something, you have different options and make it more affordable for everybody. I think it's definitely something which has been going on the last couple of years, yeah. Yeah, I think if you are someone who's playing, let's say, 30,

[9:56] 40 times per year golf, membership makes a big difference and it counts in respect to just going a couple of times, as you mentioned, in a golf club. So when we go back a little bit to golf club, Lucerne, you were founded in 1903. I mean, it's extremely early. All right.

[10:19] And I could imagine at that time it was like vacation style like you go to the golf club to enjoy your free time to your weekends perhaps spend more time and so on and so forth, I mean you know your books back to the days I mean you were more than 100 years old club, I mean of course there have been huge changes but what was something that fascinated you throughout you know if you just look a little bit on the history of the club Thank you.

[10:48] You know, the golf course was built by the English. Back in the days, there's only two golf courses in Switzerland. We are even older than us. And all these courses, they were English tourism. They came to Switzerland. They spent here a couple of months. In the winter, they obviously went skiing. And in the summer, they wanted to do something. So they got together and they started building a golf course in Lucerne. And it's still a big part. The tourism in central Switzerland is still obviously a big part. And there's also some golf tourism. It's not a major tourism, but there is a bit of that. And yeah, golf in Switzerland has a tradition. We have a lot of famous people like Audrey Hepburn or Sean Connery or Henry Cotton, one of the most famous golfers. He played in Lucerne as well. Oh, nice. So there's definitely a lot of tradition in Switzerland. And for us, the biggest challenge is to keep that tradition alive, but at the same time also go into the modern technologies in the modern times, obviously,

[11:54] you know, and I think also.

[11:58] I mean, the social part of life has been, you know, accelerated in golf. So one of the things, I mean, a lot of people would think, I'm going to a golf club, I'm playing golf, I'm going home. It's not so much anymore like that. I mean, you go to the golf club, you have perhaps a dinner or lunch, or you have a small opera or something. So you spend time. You don't execute just playing golf. I think that's very different. there's some people who come to our club they play early in the morning, play nine holes go home, it's strictly about golf there's some people who look at us as like a country club where you take your family you take your kids, you spend the whole weekends there, there's definitely both and there's no right or wrong it's whatever people are looking forward to, So you personally now are general manager of the club and you've been also before or playing as a pro. I mean, you have still your pro level, as you mentioned before, but that was your focus. So, of course, it gives you huge advantage being a pro golfer, let's say, to being a general manager.

[13:10] You know the nuances, what people want, what it makes sense, how people think value, let's say, in these terms. So, if you go back a little bit as a pro golfer, what you were missing let's say that you have introduced to the golf club.

[13:27] It's a tough question I think my biggest benefit is is as a professional golfer obviously I played all over the world in every continent I saw some of the best golf courses and I think you experience a lot and you pick out the the best things and these are the things you try to get involved in in our club as well um obviously certain things are limited land is limited resources are sometimes limited but it's definitely something which in my job helps me from from from being a professional golfer early in my life that have the all that experience from from all courses around the world, and um yeah trying to improve our club so you give you gave me a nice pass here, i mean um it's very cliche question but i would like to ask you what was the

[14:16] the best club that you've played i mean the golf course that you say that was so amazing, I mean, if you've played globally, of course, you have seen a lot of things. I mean, outside of Switzerland. I think the unique thing about golf courses is it's tough to compare them to each other. Yeah, that's true. It's not like a tennis court. The tennis court all over the world looks the same. Sure. And, you know, I played Augusta National, which is probably the most famous course. I played St. Dandos, where golf was born. He is born, yeah. I played Pebble Beach, which is obviously one of the most beautiful courses.

[14:48] But how do you compare Pebble Beach on the ocean to a course like Grand Montana in Switzerland in the mountains they're both very very pretty, there's some courses which are to play very attractive maybe not the views are that attractive but just the playing wise the strategic part about it is very great and some might just have a stunning view especially down in South Africa there's some courses which are just you don't want to play golf you don't want to play golf you just want to enjoy the view yeah I think that's, one of the advantage of golf you know all these different courses and you know I often when I used to play professional golf I saw the the airport I saw the hotel and I saw the golf course but at least the golf course was often at the most uh prettiest spot on the in these countries so at least you saw see something uh yeah something from their nature there and everything yeah of course yeah and that's why golf tourism is very big as well you know there's a lot of people every vacation they want to play golf that's actually something that you if you don't play golf you don't realize it but if you play golf or you start playing golf like myself uh it pops out very prominently every time you see you go somewhere let's say you go in spain you go in portugal you go well let's say in middle middle east everything has to have around in

[16:04] a golf club or a golf course and um.

[16:08] And the demand is high it's not like sometimes i thought it's it's like having a pool in a in, in a hotel let's say just nice to have but no people going there are actually playing and using the courses and it's a very global sport you know you have golf courses in africa asia south america you have everywhere in the world you have golf courses and um you have golfers everywhere in this world that's why professional golf is also very very competitive yeah um it's a very global sport and um yeah yeah i think also from from my side also um you speak about tourismus right,

[16:48] central switzerland is very touristic as well i mean we are in lucerne anyway i mean the question do we do you have a lot of i mean if you compare it with your guests uh people who are in switzerland living in Switzerland.

[17:02] Or against tourists playing golf coming to the golf club, or the golf clubs but not only perhaps yours but perhaps all that you are aware there's definitely a bit more golf tourism in central Switzerland than there used to be the last couple years there were a lot of people from the US traveling to Lucerne I think that's publicly known and these people they enjoy golf so we have a lot of Americans playing golf at our course as well a lot of them we have more and more Americans playing golf at our course, and one of the problems is a lot of people in Switzerland a lot of tourists they only spend about two nights in Lucerne and when you spend two nights here you only go up to Pilatus and you go to Old Town and you might not have time for golf but the more and more people stay a bit longer and it's definitely a bit more golf tourism here but Switzerland is not known as a golf country so we still have to work on that perspective to get a bit more golf tours from the central Switzerland. So do you... On one side, I mean, it's controversial usually. One side, one has to work on it. On the same side, there's not too many spots.

[18:12] I mean, it's always the trade-off at the end of the day. Absolutely. Yeah, especially our club, we are a members-oriented golf club. Members have priority at our club. We only take a limited amount of guests every day. So for us, it's definitely not the biggest goal to push that. But there's more courses in this area which are more open to tourism as well. And for these courses, I think it's a big benefit. And, you know, it's 100 golf courses in Switzerland. There's a lot of golfers, but I think we need to make sure that there is a bit of growth as well. And that might also happen through tourism. Yeah, that's a fair point. I'm going to go again to a different aspect. I'm going to go to the business of golf. I mean, you have now you're managing a golf club. historical golf club. So I think you compare it very much to tourism.

[19:03] When we go and talk about golf, we don't talk only for the sport. We're talking about very tourists. You have the restaurants, you have the golf club, you have other services. So in order to sustain this demanding type of business. So can you guide us through where do you see such challenges? I mean, to sustain a club today? I mean, because before it was, I would say it's easier when you could find easier people, you didn't have so much competition.

[19:32] Now, things are booming, costs are booming, and you have to have a high standards, as you mentioned, especially in a club like yours, where it's very, very much members oriented. So how do you sustain such a business? It is definitely a challenge, especially because the running costs are very expensive. As I said, you have 20 plus employees.

[19:56] Especially also with sustainability, water usage, everything gets more expensive. So it's definitely a challenge. I think you have to start to be more attractive with the offers you're making for new members. And we also have to try to get the young people involved in the game, make good opportunities for them to join. And at the end of the day, it's like everything. You have to find your spot in the market. Yes. You know, like we obviously, we definitely call us the five-star golf course, five-star hotel golf course. And I think we clearly have that position there. And for us, it's very important to keep that. And you can only do that. where you have a good golf course in good quality, you have to have a good restaurant, employees have to be friendly, you have to have the whole package. And then people feel at home, and then I think you find new people that way as well. I mean, it's from the outside world, it seems like a golf club. It's the green and the nature and everything, and nature helps you, but I think it's not like that. I mean, if you talk with people like you, as you mentioned, no one really thinks so directly about sustainability in a golf club. I mean, you have to water these greens. They have to be in a good quality.

[21:22] And I mean, sometimes you're lucky in a country like Switzerland, there is water enough for that. There are other countries going south more. That is becoming a huge problem. And I think also the restaurant part became essential, I would say, because it socializes. And it also, you spend so much time at the golf club. Let's say you play golf, I mean, you need three to six hours, you're there. And this is another challenge. So how you, apart from the golf itself, keep the person entertained.

[21:56] I mean, because it took a conscious decision, I want to go there today. And I want to go to you and not to someone else. So that's a huge part. You mentioned before also, one of the things is how you bring the young generation or younger generations integrated to the golf clubs. When you have a time-demanding sport.

[22:21] What are the alternatives to make this sport time-wise attractive? I mean, you said also there are some people going, I know it, I have colleagues, right? They go six o'clock in the golf club, They play nine holes after one and a half hours back. They're working. No problem but there's very few i would say so and you have to have golf in your heart, for all the rest you have to carve this time and it's not easy it's definitely one of the biggest channels at the time especially for younger people who are involved with family and job as well um these options like you said only playing nine holes going to the driving range so the practice facility is just for an hour so there is option um there's also So more and more things coming like indoor golf. There's like the big driving ranges in the US and UK. There's a lot of top golf, it's called, where you go there for an hour and you have a bit of fun and you still get your practice in.

[23:21] But it's definitely, it's a challenge, yeah. But I think some people also enjoy taking their time off, having a digital detox as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's for me the same. So we have that time aspect. We have to try to sell it well. And definitely at the same time have more and more options to have shorter rounds of golf as well. I mean, I like the digital detox because for me, when I play golf, let's say, or in general in my personal life, I try to digitally detox.

[23:53] And it's one of the few things. I mean, driving is one thing. Second is playing golf that you cannot use your phone, let's say, or being in front of a PC, you detox completely. And it is actually, the social part is very important. So you have the opportunity to talk to someone, exchange, have fun without any digital influence, let's say around. I think we saw that during COVID, you know, people got annoyed of just spending time in front of a screen and everything, and then people enjoy going out on the golf course. Golf course has always been an area where there's no cell phones allowed.

[24:30] That is changing a little bit as well because now you need your cell phone to track your game to keep your score and everything update your instagram sometimes as well but we still try to enforce that and and i think most people actually enjoy having a bit of time and actually talking to a real person and um so as i said that going with the modern aspects but at the same time also So keeping some standard values, which have been good alive. But has it also, coming back a little bit in the business of golf, has it also helped that the luxury brands, I mean, it's very much,

[25:06] as you mentioned before, it's very much associated with the middle or upper class. Has it helped also the luxury brands that they have come closer to golf? Let's say you have all the watches industry in Switzerland, right? That came closer. You have the clothing business. It's coming closer as well. Its brands, I mean, all the car industry is also, I mean, in a golf event, you see a lot of cars as well.

[25:33] So, had it helped, let's say, making people more sensible about that, or the business as well, or it's just a side effect? I think you have two sides, obviously having golf as an exclusive sport also brings some people in who enjoy that lifestyle. But at the same time, it also brings an image which we don't really want. We want an image where golf is more towards like a mass sport. I always say price-wise, it compares to skiing. Like a day of skiing costs about 100 Swiss francs. A round of golf costs about 100 Swiss francs. Equipment is about the same price and and skiing in Switzerland is looked at as a mass sport and we want we golf we want to go a bit in that same direction yeah especially for the middle class it's affordable and if you see on on on tv only this luxurious brand everything it kind of blocks you blocks the the image we actually want to enforce a little bit yeah okay so assuming you, I'm someone who hasn't been interested how do you start Lingolf?

[26:44] Because it's completely different than other sports so how do you start? I mean you've been pro as well so give us some tips I mean it means the regulations first of all you can guide us through but also you know.

[26:58] To keep this spark alive because this frustration can be very, very, very hard as well. You can stop as well. You need a bit of patience there to start off with. There's obviously, most golf courses offer schnooper courses where you can just try out for a couple of hours. Definitely do that once or twice. And I say after twice, two times doing that, you feel if you get it or not. If you really enjoy it, then go for it. And if you don't enjoy it, it's probably not the sport for you. If you feel that fire burning, then you have to do a Platzreife. This is something which golf has.

[27:35] It has to be done to keep the game on the course regulated to a certain degree. Because it can be quite dangerous as well if the golf balls fly the wrong spots. So you have to do a course like a driver license test, for example. It takes normally between two to four months. Two to four months? Yeah.

[27:58] Go a few times you can have it some people take two years on it but uh really yeah but it shouldn't.

[28:03] Happen now no it shouldn't happen i've had mine let's say in three weeks so then you then you're very quick then you wake me but i was going very often very often yeah normally after a couple of months you have that and then you can go on the golf course yeah um which is definitely the more fun part than just practicing and um then you have to start have a handicap which everybody's talking about the handicap so it shows the level of golf you're playing which is a very cool thing actually the handicap because it makes it possible to compare to other players yeah so we have kids going with their grandparents we have women and wives wives and men together it's it's all people like play impossible to play together and compete against each other with having that handicap which is quite cool it's like you cannot do that on a thing it's very smart in golf this handicap number uh because as you mentioned you can you can compare to yourself and this is the number you're competing to actually it is yourself uh you don't compete to a lower handicap i mean this person has to compete with itself as well so this is this is the area there and when you have this handicap what is the next step um it's up to you um obviously some people are very competitive they want to get that handicap down they play tournaments and so on but there's also the recreational golfer, you know, who just enjoys going out with his friends or with his wife or his husband and play a casual round of golf. And that's fine too. It's really up to the golfer itself.

[29:33] That's what I'm saying. I'm a lifestyle golfer as well. So I'm just enjoying when I have the time, enjoying playing,

[29:40] having my food, dinner, have a good discussion and have a good day. I, If you're a professional, let's say, in normal life, let's say you have a lot of competition outside. Sometimes you don't need to compete everywhere in your life. Someone you should enjoy. And I find this enjoyment in golf personally. So this is how I do it. I'm a recreational golfer, as you said. That's definitely both. There's nothing right or wrong. There's some who are very, very competitive. Every weekend they play a tournament. And some just enjoy the scenery. They enjoy the company they're having on the golf course. So as the last question, I just want to go back a little bit to you as a person. You've been a pro and you've started very young, even very young age like that. Was it something that you personally chosen? Hey, daddy, I would like to play golf. Or how did you start it? I mean, how did you become interested in golf?

[30:41] Let's say the first place when you were young. And then for me to understand, how do you see if I'm interested to golf, I want to go pro golfing?

[30:51] So I grew up like most Swiss kids probably I went skiing a lot I played hockey then I played tennis and then I started when I was 14 with golf so quite late actually and it was pure luck I grew up in Grison, Graubünden and we had a public golf course there and a couple of tennis friends, took me to the golf course to the driving range and I just hit some balls and I enjoyed it, and yeah suddenly I was hooked to it like a lot of golfers know that feeling you just want to spend all your time on the golf course and obviously I improved I got some good results in Switzerland I started playing as an amateur abroad had success as well and then I went to university in the US, was able to get a scholarship at one of the best colleges in the US.

[31:45] And finished fourth at the world championships things like that And then I realized that I want to do that as my job. And I was lucky enough to do it for eight years. I was mainly played in North America. And it was definitely an experience. It's nice if you can do your hobby as a job. But as you mentioned before, the competition is very difficult. And at some point you also have to say, I played at the highest level and now it's time to do something else. But it's very nice to still be in the golf business. as I said before getting the experience which I had during that time into the golf club here yeah obviously and I think that's a huge profit

[32:24] also for the club also for the community as well having someone who has this pedigree let's say giving inputs I mean golf clubs help each other compete each other as well at the same time and it's a great thing as well so, Roger actually thank you very much for being here today giving all this inputs information I wish all the best also for the golf club and the new season starting, we are in March, starting now, let's say. I hope we have good days as well outside so people enjoy it as well. And I wish you really all the best. Thanks a lot for being here. Thanks for having me and good luck with your own golf career and I hope to see you on the course soon. Hope as well. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you.