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Unwritten
Join us for Unwritten, where we delve into the inspiring stories of individuals who have made drastic changes to find their most authentic selves. After all, the path is still unwritten.
Unwritten
Old Wounds and New Beginnings: An Unlikely Friendship with Ali Bump
In this deeply personal episode of Unwritten, Stephanie sits down with her good friend Ali, who shares a unique and intertwined history with her. Both women were married to the same man (at different times) and share the same baby daddy—a connection that could have created division but instead fostered a surprising and powerful friendship. Together, they open up about healing old wounds, moving past difficult histories, and finding strength in their shared journeys.
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Hey, it's Stephanie. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Unwritten. If you don't know me, I am a portrait photographer out of Baraboo, a soon to be author and the proud mother of three in this podcast. So today I'm super excited because I have one of my really good friends, Allie on. Hello. And Allie is a massage therapist. is her business is called Jade Healing Arts. She's out of Reidsburg, but lives in Wonewoc with her two kids. Two and three. Three kids. Three kids. Yeah. With a step kid. Yes. What makes Allie and I our friendship super unique is that we actually chose our first husband. We actually chose the same one. We did. Not at same time. At the same time, but we had the same. Same husband. And so, you know, we got to thinking that that's kind of unique and we don't really know where this podcast is going to go. No, we don't. It could go so many ways. So many different ways. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to say which which way it'll go. Yeah. And for a lot of people, you know, that first marriage is I mean, some people get to stay forever with somebody. Yeah. Yeah. My I have a twin and I don't have a twin, as you know. She's been with Her husband since we were 13. Oh, wow. So, yeah, sometimes sometimes you pick the right one right away. Yeah. I don't know if there is a right one. Yeah. There's ones that you just work well with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So my story is that I met Jim, the husband we are talking about. baby daddy. Yeah. When I was 19. And then we got married at 21 and then we were divorced by 28. And. It wasn't that long, but it was such a destructive. hmm. It was like. It was destructive. Destructive is, yeah, the best word like it just. Yeah, destroyed my life. And you weren't that much older when you know I was 20 when I met him. At the hospital, we worked together in surgery. how old were you when you when you kind of like realized that it was bad? Well, Gray was born in 2012. And it was. Probably 2013, it was well when when we had to move out of the house. Oh, yeah. your guys' house because it was foreclosed on. And yeah, there was one night that I was like just sitting on the stairs in the back stairs, like going outside, just crying. And he was like, what's the matter? I'm like, I just am so unhappy. I was like, this is so bad. Like our life is so bad right now. And he went and did drugs. Yeah. And I cried. That's that's when I knew it was bad, but I didn't want to give up on it because I did love him. Yeah. And I think that's the idea of him. loved who I thought he was. Yeah. Like the fun skateboarder. Yeah. And the one just the big dreamer, you know, to just like let my dreams get huge. And I believed that they would happen and. They wouldn't. They would a little bit happen, but it was because I did it. Nothing that he did made it happen. But in my mind, I couldn't do it without him. Yeah, I feel like we're in dependency. I feel like we're on Dr. Phil. Anyways, well, better than Jerry Springer. Better than Jerry Springer. Yeah, that's true. Dr. Phil is definitely wiser. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, the oldest might have been on Jerry Springer. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. Ali and I did not get along for quite a few years. But slept with your husband, why would we? Yeah, well, I wasn't going to bring that up. But yeah, it was right around 2013, think is actually kind of when we started turning our friendship around. So that's been 11 years that we've been working on a friendship because we share our kids have the same dad. through this process of growth, because Allie and I are both on this, we're not going to let our past define us. The more we we got past our differences and started realizing our similarities, which I think is a testament to the human race or, know, like being human is kind of awesome and terrible. Yeah. At the same time. But yeah, it's like we can we can get through things. Yeah, we can do hard things and it's easier if we can do them together. Yeah. And nobody else is going to understand. the heartache I had more than you. You know, because I did love him and you and you did, too. How could we not look at our beautiful boys? You know? But it was. He like you said, he was destructive, he destroyed our lives financially, emotionally, mentally. Like. Trust like we didn't know how to trust people anymore because yeah, the one person you thought you could trust You can't couldn't yeah, but he was gonna save us from our parents from our told you that too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. my god. Really? Yeah Yeah, the man that yeah That's insane. I didn't I don't think I knew that he was gonna yeah. No. Well, yeah, I mean he was like you know like I didn't need my family and they only saw the weak alley and they didn't know. Like just, yeah, you would just play those mind games like that. I had to check in with them and they just controlled my my answers and it was just they saw how bad he was and I didn't. Yeah. And they would try to tell me and then he would just be like, they're just gaslighting you really. He was gaslighting me. Yeah, I know the same feeling that, you know, somebody that comes into your life that truly wants to help you. The rest of your relationship should get better, not worse. Right. Yes. So that's a tip. Yeah. You know, that's a gaslighting right there. that is a good relationship is the one that you have with your boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever partner. And all your other relationships go to hell. Yeah. Yeah. And he truly made me feel like he was the only person I needed the savior. Yeah. That's got to be another complex of some savior. Yeah. And he was, you know, going to give me everything I wanted and off the grid house and was going to get to live this hippie life that I wanted. But there was no way he was going to give that to me. Like. I was the one that found Grandpa Harvey's, you know, I mean, through our ness. But like that was all me. And I just didn't think I could do it without him. He just made me think that I needed him when really he was just he needed me and everything I had to offer. And then he just sucked it dry. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, everything you did to you. Yeah. I mean, what he did to me was very similar. It was just 10 years before. Right. And. Through my own healing process. And especially with, you know, writing the book that I wrote. I'm excited to read it. I know I'm super excited for you to read it, too, especially that whole part, because when I'm writing. I... Writing is different for me. Like when I write, it all comes out and I can pause and I can think. And then when I'm speaking about it and like trying to recall things, it doesn't quite always come about right. when I was writing and going back in those spaces, I realized that how abusive the relationship was. And I didn't realize it was abusive because I didn't want to, first off. But because I also, I went from one chaotic relationship to the next. I went in ways that was maybe better and in ways it was worse. Yeah. Yeah. I you only want to see the better. You only want to see the better. Right. But then the similarities get in there because it's what you're used to. Yeah. You know, so you only see the new things. Let's talk about that. Like, let's talk about how these old patterns kind of come up and they'll keep coming up and keep coming up until we realize that, that's just the problem. That's programming. Right. That's right. And for me and my family, it was not it was a chaotic environment. So going from living with my parents and having the twins and all the chaos that ensued with that and special needs kids and not knowing Drew's prognosis, what was going to happen to to being with Jim. And then it's like, OK, I have this idea of what marriage should look like. we should be happy. He shouldn't be out with other women. He shouldn't be drinking, doing drugs. So I chose not to see it. I thought that was my fault that he was doing that stuff. And for me, I think... I did come from this really close family. And I grew up with an identical twin sister. So I thought I wanted what she was doing. And I was dating a guy. I was engaged to a guy when Jim and I started sleeping together. I liked him and looking back now at the relationship, the relationship I had with him, it was a good relationship. But I was young and partied and then I started working at the hospital with Jim. And he just pursued me so hard and I'd never had anybody like. Pursue me like that. And he was just older and he knew what to say and he knew how to say it. And he just stayed on it for like six months. And then finally, like in a weak moment with the boyfriend fiance that I was with, I just caved. why I was so attracted to him, I think, was because I came from a family. I was raised in a very, very close-knit family because I was raised with my aunt and uncles and my grandparents and my mom. We lived with my dad's parents. And... I grew up in a family that was super close and super... like, everybody just kind of knew everything. And then, this thing happened with Jim, and it was so... secretive and he made that just seems like such a good thing and I don't know there was just there was just this weird attraction to it, but I grew up with a very un-present father and I think I wanted that male attention in a way that he I don't know just like the love bombing and He just made himself seem like such a good guy, you know. And you were young. And I was young. Yeah, I was 20. And the first time I saw him, Gavin was with him. You guys were you were there. OK. Mm I remember thinking he was a really cute kid. He was. He was. And so looking back at that point in my life, I was trying to build a life without Jim. But we are still married because. I was now a mom again. And I had this huge healing experience with giving birth to Gavin. And it wasn't traumatic. The twins, having premature twins so young that at 26 or 27, whenever I had them, I just realized how much love I have for my kids. And I was just like, I'm going to be the best mom that I can be no matter what. Hi. And with Jim, it's like, I didn't know if he was going to come home. Right. I didn't know. I- Crash's truck? Crash's truck. I didn't know if he was going to spend a bunch of money on stuff. And I wasn't, I didn't know where it was going. There was so many unknowns. But I wasn't willing to, to say, to put the line in the sand of, you know what? I deserve better than this. I didn't think I deserve better. Right. I would I would literally drive my car, listen to music so loud because every voice inside my head was like, you need to leave him, you need to leave him. And, you know, that piece of me was like, well, at least he doesn't beat me. What if my next boyfriend beats me? And now I look back and it's like, holy shit, like he was abusive. I remember this. always said. Nobody's dying. Yeah, it took Gray being born too for me to really be like, what am I doing? You know, I mean, after he got well out of jail the first time. And. Like we were trying to figure out where we're going to live because the house was going to be foreclosed on. Your house is going to be foreclosed. know it's sad about that. But like. Like I said, when I was like sitting on the back basement stairs, just like crying and. And you. But I didn't know he was doing drugs yet. Like, I didn't know how bad the drug use is. Was he he lied so much about the drug usage? And I just didn't know any better. I'd never I was raised with plenty of people that. drank too much alcohol, but never anybody that was on drugs like that. I just didn't know what it was. You know, it was his epilepsy. he had epilepsy. Not epilepsy. Narcolepsy. Yeah. The narcolepsy. Yeah, I remember that whole thing. Yeah. And so for context, from what I, this is my take on it, is that Jim was doing too many drugs and he was falling asleep. So I remember I was pregnant with Gavin and I had had enough because he couldn't stay awake. It's just like we were talking. He would just nod off. Anything he was just nodding off. Yeah. So I took him. I dropped him off at the emergency room. Don't call me till you've seen somebody. And during this time, I don't know if he spent the night. He might have. But then somehow they decided he had narcolepsy. It almost gave him validation. Oh, 100 % that now I need Adderall on top of Vicodin and all the other things he was trying to. And it was like, oh, OK, well, if the doctors say this and thinking like they actually like he didn't manipulate that whole system. Right. Yeah. And then it just gave him an excuse to have another drug. Yeah. Yeah. Like and he was still justified all of his behaviors. And that's what he would do. Like he would he was so good at justifying. Yeah. You could justify everything. And you just wanted to believe it. You did. Yeah. You wanted to believe it because the idea that somebody could be that manipulative and lie, that's almost... Because you could never be that way. I could never be that way. I could never... knew that, I think. I mean, that's why, like we said, we wanted to not like each other, but in the end, we're very similar. Mm Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we picked the same guy. So the same guy. Unlucky us. He picked us too. So so we're going to just maybe flash forward a little bit here. Yeah. Because. Now we're a few years in. So I'm not going to get into the details why Jim was in prison, but Jim ended up going to prison for seven years. No, five and a half. Five and a half years. And during that time, I was doing some really intense therapy. We've kind of talked about on the show a little bit, the brain spotting and also talk therapy. And Because I had this fear that when Jim got out that he was going to somehow take Gavin away from me. And what I realized during those deep therapy sessions was that actually Jim is really weak. And I had nothing to worry about. It was all just kind of in my head. So. He gets up or even during that time. I'm like, I don't want anything to do with him. If Gavin wants to go see him. Right. Right. And at that point, I was still. I mean, I told him specifically when he was in jail, so jail is two years or under sentence, two years or over sentences when prison happens. I know if you knew that. he was out on humor and I told him, like, I if you go to I will not be with you. And at that point, still wanted to make it work. I mean, I was still in love with him then, is what it was. But he went to prison. And I was living at my sister's when he went to prison. And oh my gosh, I was so heartbroken. I was so heartbroken. Because he had so many chances to not go to prison too. Yeah, so many chances. just kept No, couldn't keep it together. And that was when I really had to like let go. And he. It was the. Went to Dodge County, Governor Dodd, right? Got Dodge. Yeah, Dodge. I remember get the hell out of Dodge. I don't know if that's it came from, but it's like the everybody goes there and then they get sorted out to where they're going to go. OK. And he was there and I never went and saw him there. But. Then he got put into Kettle Moraine. And just some back history. My father was in that prison. And I went there as a child. And it was one of the first times driving there that I was like, my gosh. Like, I used to make this drive all the time with my mom. And you go through Fox something. some town called Fox Lake, Fox Lake. And there's these boxes all the time when we were there. And we always used to call them the Fox boxes. And my grandpa would tell us that they kept foxes in those boxes. So that like that was something that came back to me and I was just like, wow. And then like going to the prison. And walking through the doors that when I was little, I pinched my finger in it and it like pulled my fingernail off. Super traumatic. Like vivid memories and just realizing I'm taking my child to the same prison that my mother took me to to see my father when I was little. I need to go to therapy. Like this, this is the circle. This is the cycle. This is the cycle that they talk about, you know, that generational trauma, the generational cycles that we just allow to happen. And I was like, I need to go to therapy. And I saw. One therapist just doing talk therapy for probably six months and she had to leave on medical leave and she was like, you're really good at talking about things. You don't ever have any issues explaining things, which sometimes I think I can almost talk myself out of things. I'm really good. Yeah, I can have a conversation with anybody. she's like, I think you should see Judy. And I also did, I started with the EMDR and then went to brain spotting. And I didn't deal as much with gym as I thought I was going to as much as I dealt with my mom and dad and the things that happened as a child and the amount of. how upset I was that I was making the same choice as my mom made, that I was choosing to be with somebody that, know, my Jim didn't do to me what my dad did to my mom, which is a whole nother podcast. But it was this. I was allowing somebody that did a really bad thing to somebody. To to like. have such control over me and I was like, I need to go to therapy. And Judy helped the EMDR and then the brain spotting was the one that I felt really helped. To just reset my brain around. Yeah, what was OK and not OK, because I had witnessed. Being with somebody who did a really bad thing like it was OK if you stayed with them as long as you loved them. You know? Yeah. And I think that's a really good point that you can. And that's what I was confusing during that time, when I was with him. But I love him. Right. He's doing these awful things to me, around me, to my kids. He's putting my kids in danger. But I love him, so that makes it OK. Right. Right. And I don't know. I don't understand. Where we got that. wrong or and not just we but a lot of women. Yeah, a lot of women like my mom too, you know, because she loved she loved my dad. She loved his family. You know, they were good to her. And my my dad's family is they're amazing. They're why I believe that I am as minimally screwed up as I am because I could be way worse. And you're not screwed up like I'm screwed up. No, I'm not. I'm not. I just have traumas. Yeah. And we all we all have these traumas and we all have this like shitty, not everybody, but most of us have this like really shitty childhood thing. And then we just go ahead and we repeat it. Mm So. Instead of like the strength that it takes to end the cycle. It's incredible. It is. And it's you make a choice every day to wake up and be like, I'm not doing this today. Yeah. Yeah. And and then, know, you find a partner that doesn't treat you bad, that does support you. then you're like, it can be fun to be in a relationship. doesn't have to just be hard work all the time. And that's pretty cool when you figure that out. And I think you figure that out through friendships, too. You know, you start finding people that. really just love who you are. Yeah. And you learn what love can feel like, you know, or what it can feel like to be loved. You know, and last night when we were chatting on the phone about today, we were talking about the bridge. Remember that we were saying how? For so long, we felt like we were the ones that had to be the bridge between us and, right. And let's say our parents or some friendships or whatever. And if you're the one that's constantly building the bridge, constantly reaching out to make that connection, that it shouldn't be that way. Everybody that you're in relation with. They should be giving that same amount, right? Or it shouldn't be a friendship. Right. Yeah. And and and of course, we know like. We can go. We can go two months without talking, three months without talking, and I know that you're going to answer the phone, you know, and you're not going to like. Be disappointed and I don't I don't owe you anything, you know, only anything. Yeah. And it's so yeah, when you get to that point where. you aren't the bridge anymore. You're not, unless they're working on it too, or it's going back and forth. Yeah, fair. But it is amazing what relationships fall off, even with our boys and their dad. Yeah, I do want to talk about that. Raising them to understand you don't owe anybody anything. I think that is what has pushed us both to grow so much is because neither of us want our boys to grow up to, one, be like their dad, and to be like we were when we were with their dad. Yeah. Because that's a huge fear. You know? I don't want any of my children to ever think it's okay to be in a relationship that's that toxic. I And I think that we need to take a little bit of a step back so that listeners understand that as of now, both of our boys do not have a relationship with their dad. He is not actively pursuing a relationship with them. And And we don't really know what he's up to. We know he doesn't live around here. Yep. And we know he's probably not working. Well, we know he's not working because we're not getting any child support. Yeah, if he's working, he's working for cash. And through this process. Like we have our or shit together enough that. If I feel like if somebody met us on the street, like we wouldn't. We don't necessarily wear our scars. Right. And that's why I think it's so important to be talking about this because we don't know everybody. We don't know what everybody's going through. Right. And yeah, if somebody came up and like met us, they would never think that. We would have a child with. Yeah. You know that we would have a child with somebody like that, like, you would you were with somebody like that. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It happens to everybody. Yeah. It can happen to anybody, I guess. You know? I mean. Yeah. Lost it. So I do have a couple of questions because there's some blank space for me. There was a point after jail before prison that you guys were living in at Harvey's. Yes. And I think Gavin was going up. Was he going up like every weekend, every other weekend? I think it was every weekend. OK, so he was coming up every weekend. And what was Jim's state during that time? Because I don't think we had much communication. No. So he wasn't working. I think he was using very heavy at that point. And so he made connections up there? No, I think he drove back to Bear Boot every day because I could never like, so we only had one vehicle after. How did that go? He crashed one. I mean, he didn't he crash a second truck or something or not? Yes, he did. But we only had one vehicle. We had the truck. That was all we had. OK. And because we had sold my car. To get him a work truck, then, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah. Anyways, we only had one vehicle. We had the truck and he could never be without a vehicle like I he would drive me into Hillsborough and I would ride with a co-worker into work in Reedsburg at the nursing home. so that he had to have a vehicle. If he didn't have a vehicle, was in like, he was so stressed, because he would start withdrawing, I think. No, I think that was when his drug usage was the heaviest. I think he was way in then. Okay. And then... The process for me during that time was that I was okay with Gavin going because you were there. So thank you for that. Yes. Yeah. I'm sorry that I... But it's true. You were. But however, that was just me making excuses to not have to face... Yeah. And I think that process of... You know, we know things are bad as women, especially because we feel them, we all... Right....this mother's intuition and we just choose to ignore. And then we're ignoring, so then we try to make excuses like, well, again, similar to when I was like... When I knew I needed to... he needed to leave, I needed to leave. It was really bad that... But then I would come up with an excuse. Okay, well, at least Ali's there. Right. Or whatever. And... It's hard looking back because I have to like live with that guilt that something really bad could have happened. But it didn't. Not to, yeah. Yeah, it didn't, but it could have. It could, it could have. I remember one time I was driving behind him because this was one. don't know whose vehicle he was driving, but he had gray in the car. And I was behind him and he was like swerving into the ditch. Like swerving into the ditch. And we got to where we were going. And I was like honking the horn at him. And we got to where we going. I was like, what the hell is wrong with you? He's like, I'm just really tired. And I'm like, then why did you have him in the car with you? Like, why didn't you just let me have him in the car? And then like. thinking back to how many times he probably left Grey alone or he took Grey with him to get drugs. Yeah, crazy guilt. Crazy mom guilt. Yeah, because our kids were so little and we wouldn't do that now. absolutely not. But we'd let it happen then. And. But he but he. He would never admit that there was a problem. Right. You know what I mean? Like you would ask him, you'd be like, why is it like, why, why do we never have any money? Like I would go through our bank statement and just be like, how is it gone? Where is it going? You know? And he would just he would just gaslight me and just tell me it was OK. And it's this and it's that. And yeah, the same happened when we were together. And I think he was. You know, like he would have he would go into places to buy stuff like that's it I think Burger King was like a that one sticks out to me It's like why the hell are you spending so much money at Burger King, but he would buy something but then he would take cash out Right. So gas right when he bought gas he would go in and then he would take cash out take cash out and It's like Okay Right Maybe not buy so many cheeseburgers next time. Well, I got to eat. Well, okay. I understand but maybe You know, sandwich, make a sandwich. And so he goes to store and do the same thing. Then he'd take 100 bucks out of the at the grocery store. It's like it was never right. Yeah. And I remember like. With them when they were when we were living out at Harvey's and. Just like we didn't even have like we couldn't even put gas in the car like he more than once went and got gas and just drove off. Yeah. Because like. didn't have any money to put gas in the car and. And he would tell me and I was just like, what? Like what? And he was like, well, it'll be fine. Like. This is getting bad. But then and then that was one that we lived out at Echo Valley. Yeah, we Harveys and that was really bad, too. That was really bad, too. That was like the beginning of the end. And then that was when Anna. Had like helped figure out what he was doing and where he was getting the pills from. And then. like came to me and was like, this is what's happening. And it was at that point, like I couldn't deny it anymore. Like it was so black and white and I was so I just had to accept and. Yeah, and worn down. Yeah, that was another thing I remember being so worn down. Yeah, there was. Yeah, I was because I was working and like trusting him with our kid and he couldn't even do that. Like I couldn't work because I couldn't. I had so much anxiety when I was at work. Like, what's he doing? Yeah. Yeah. I know one time I. I went into his phone and I saw that he was calling somebody from down the street, this girl that lived down the street while I was at work. So I just went into his phone and like changed her phone number so that he couldn't call her. It was just like one little tiny thing I could do to, you know, because I knew when I was at work and he was home, he wasn't alone. Right. Like he could never be alone. Right. Right. And somehow I talked myself into thinking I was worthy of that, that I was, that was what I deserved. And the whole purpose of this podcast and talking about it is that we deserve so much more. Yeah. And. Yeah. And the things that we fear right so I was afraid of being alone. I was afraid of of it all and I I don't have to be afraid anymore. I I was afraid of You know like oh, how am I gonna get a car for Gavin when he turned 16? How am I this? know, I would put all these things in into place How am I gonna do this alone? I guess I better stay with him, right and and you could for anybody listening, it could be a job, it could be a boss that's, you know, there's so many different ways that we think, okay, well, I don't want to, the next job could be worse, it could be worse. And it's like, no, it's really bad right now. And the best thing you can do is face your fears. And get out of the bad. Get out of the bad. Move away from the bad. Yeah, whatever you have to do. Right, just start making the steps. Yeah. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say, My worst fears came true and it wasn't that bad. Right. yeah. He was so good at making you believe that you couldn't do without him. I didn't think I could, you know, and like you said, you just. kind of side note, like random, but fits in my ADHD brain. Like the whole being alone thing, I think I had a lot of fears of being alone too, because I don't know if it's because I grew up a twin. You know, I was never really alone a whole lot. But he was so good at playing off that, you know? And then the whole self-worth thing comes in and... Yeah, lost my train a little bit, but that's okay. And I think, like, where I want to, like, kind of conclude on this is that... We did the hard things and we have to deal with our own stuff, right? So we have to deal with that guilt of like the mom guilt and we have to deal with this pain. For me, it's a pain because I've always just wanted to be like the best mom possible and realizing that through that process, I was... really not a good mom. Right, because you thought you were doing the right thing. Yeah, yeah, and I see my son and I don't think he will make the same mistakes I've made through this process. Right. I don't think he will either because you've been so open as you've needed to be with him. Yeah, I he's in the next room. Not that he's listening, because he would never want to, but maybe someday. Yeah, I've always been honest with him and I... I've allowed him to see me fail. Yeah. And get back up and get back up and a million times. Right. And not. And not beat yourself up about it. Yeah. I mean, I have my days, but yes, yeah, it's a healing process. You have your days, but you're honest about it and you tell him that you know that like you shouldn't necessarily feel this bad about it, but you do. And it's OK to feel bad. Yeah. But it's also OK to. Forgive yourself for feeling bad or for failing. I don't know if that didn't come out right. Just feel the feelings. Yeah, just feel the feelings. Yeah. And for him... Feeling the feelings too. Like I want him to be okay feeling pain. I want him to feel okay if the day sucks and he just needs to vent or cry. You know, like there's no stoicism. He doesn't have to, he doesn't have to numb it. Right. You can just feel it and then... Feel it and move through it. Move through it. Yeah. Yeah, and that's... it and then just be saturated in it. Yeah, or pretend. Or pretend. Yeah. Um, we live in denial, right? I spent a lot of time there a lot of time in denial think if somebody at some point would have sat down and asked me like honest questions instead of talking at me about how bad Jim was, just sat down and been like, have you thought about it this way or have you thought about it that way? instead of talking at me would have had conversations with me about him. I probably could have talked myself into understanding what was going on. Yeah. But everybody was just like, he's so bad. And I'm like, but I'm going to fix him. know, you're going to make it better. And I can, I'm tough enough to stick it out. And instead of just sitting down and being like, but do you want to? Yeah. Yeah. And there's so many guys and girls out there. that are unfixable. And it's okay to just say, know what, this isn't. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, so like I said, if anybody's out there like questioning their relationship and I'm to be like, hey, Steph, what do you think about this? You'd be like, I've seen that behavior before. just ask them the questions that you wish somebody would have asked you or me or, you know, just talk about it. Somebody. Yeah. Yeah, I wish I had somebody. that I could have talked about it with. I think for you and I, that's been like the biggest blessing out of all of this is like we have each other to talk about it with. Yeah. To talk it through with. Yeah. Or to be like, hey, I'm feeling guilty because Ray's feeling this way. You know, and you're like, yeah, I felt that way with this when this happened with Gav. And then I don't have to feel guilty for feeling guilty. You know, because sometimes you don't. Miss like I definitely don't miss Jim in any way shape or form, but there's things that I wish I could have shared with him. What wanted him to be? Yeah, like with our kids. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the milestones with Gray and with Gab. But I do have you to be like, hey, blah, blah, blah. Mm And you can be like, don't feel guilty. Yeah, same. Yeah. It's just it's nice that we now have this type of relationship that we can do this. Yeah. We got this. got this. All right, well thanks for being here. yes. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. We'll do it again.