The Glass Ceiling We Build Ourselves with Shannon Hill

Why isn't being good at what you do enough? In this episode of Unwritten, Stephanie sits down with returning guest Shannon Hill to unpack the glass ceiling — both the one the world puts over women in business and the one we quietly build for ourselves.

The conversation starts with HBO's Hacks and a line that stuck: when you're a man you have to do a hundred things right, when you're a woman you have to do a hundred and one. From there it moves through workplace inequality, the boys' club of golf outings and easy referrals, and why women are so much better at seeing everyone else's worth than their own.

Then it gets personal. Stephanie opens up about burnout, self-doubt, and what she calls a "crash out" — running out of gas on the way somewhere you were genuinely excited to go. Who do you call for help? Do they show up angry that you inconvenienced them, or grateful you asked? Shannon and Stephanie talk about self-worth, undercharging, imposter syndrome, mom guilt, and the guilt tax women pay on rest — plus why a few days a year for yourself is not too much to ask.

If you're a woman entrepreneur, solopreneur, small business owner, creative, or anyone who wakes up already behind and can't figure out why the compliments never stick but the criticism does — this one's for you.

Topics: glass ceiling · women in business · imposter syndrome · self-worth · burnout and recovery · asking for help · mom guilt · rest without guilt · gender inequality at work · women entrepreneurs · setting boundaries · nervous system and freeze response · ADHD and focus · retreats, hiking, and community as self-care

Explicit — candid language and adult humor.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hey, it's Stephanie. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Unwritten. I have Shannon here by Popular Demand. Thank you, Shannon, for coming back to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

And you're driving to work this morning, driving to Monona.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Awesome. And I wanted to talk about a topic that you and you're watching a show kind of about it. So I think we're in alignment this morning already. And the question is why being good at what you do isn't always enough?

SPEAKER_01 0:37

I'm super curious to see or hear your like take on that. Because as soon as I seen it, I was like, oh, that's so funny. I'm watching this show and it's about two women and they're in this uh, you know, in in the entertainment industry. So that's obviously historically been very the male dominated. Yes, the women were could be actresses and stars and stuff, but men were like running it. It's probably still a super big issue. And we all know there's a lot. That's a whole thing. That's a whole different topic, like being in food and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

But I mean, you think about directors and producers, and yeah, it's all men. I mean, not all, but heavily.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Yeah, it's taken women like a while to like creep in there for sure and get like recognition. And so in the show, it's called hacks, it's on um HBO Max, whatever the heck's the name is now of that uh I don't even know what you call that, uh HBO. So, anyways, the woman the women have to work harder, and then they don't get like that recognition they deserve because they're a woman. And in the show this morning, actually, because I was like kind of had it on in the background when I was getting ready. She the the one woman went and talked to uh this this higher up guy, and he said, Well, when you're a man, you have to do a hundred and a hundred things right to like make it all work and make have luck be on your side and get a late night show. Basically, it was about like a late night show. He goes, When you're a woman, you have to do a hundred and one. Oh. Right. And I was like, Oh, and because she had back when she tried to be this this late night show person 40 years ago or something, like that's what it's based on. She had had like some drama about her come out that were like she lit her husband's house on fire. And anyways, it wasn't true or whatever, but like then it got me thinking, like, oh, had that been a man 40 years ago that was like going to take and he lit a house on fire, would he have still gotten the job? And the answer is probably yes. So, like, I so then for you, you might have been thinking a different like spin on the you know, not being when good enough's not being not good enough. And but it does align with that because it's like she was good enough. He literally told her, he's like, You were good enough, you were great, you could have totally done it. But because you're a woman and you had this extra strike against you, we had to like pass.

SPEAKER_03 3:16

Huh. Yeah. I do I wasn't expecting this to be a masculine-feminine conversation. But I like it. Um, obviously.

unknown 3:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Yeah, yeah. Right. I don't think my brain, like, I wouldn't have gone there immediately either. Like, oh, not good enough. But then obviously, you know, whatever you have going on around you, you kind of gravitate from. So I'm like, oh, this is so funny because it does line up with that. Okay. Um, you have said in the past stuff along the lines of like, well, yeah, this man is out there and getting all the credit and blah, blah, blah. And men, if there are any men listening, we are not hating on you. We we love men. There are there are historical facts and evidence to back this up. So sorry. Um, not saying you haven't evolved and changed and that things aren't changing. They are, um, still kind of slowly. But, anyways, like you've said, well, of course, that man is out there doing his job and getting like all this acknowledgement for like, oh, you do you've done this, you get to bring you bring home the bacon, whatever you want to say. And then they're like, Because there's a woman at home taking care of everything for him.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

Yeah. Oh, yeah. We've had those little conversations about that. That, you know, men get to go, you know, historically, men are the ones that get to go to the golfing things. And, you know, like they're I was just thinking about madmen, right? Like how all the men have this club of men, and all the women don't. You know, it's like, and you see it even, you know, I I see it with my boyfriend. Like, like he'll just go up to somebody, or somebody usually comes up to him, and they're so chummy. Like, guys are so chummy with each other, like, oh, you like fast cars, I like fast cars.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Let's be best friends, you know, and it's so that's another us women have, yes, we do empower each other at some time, but we almost have to women aren't like that. We're just we're just we have that like cat instinct cats versus dogs. We've talked about that, like cats versus dogs, and the men are the men are dogs, and they're like, Oh, you have a ball? Okay. Yeah. Okay. And then women are like, we're very cautious because we've we're programmed to like, I don't know, be cautious, like not fully trust. So then it's like, oh, is this woman out after my husband or my job? I don't typically like think that in general. I'm pretty confident and secure and all of that. But women that do, I feel the reason they are is because they've been scorned in the past. Like, yeah, when a woman is very insecure about, let's say, like, you're talking to her husband at an event and she's there and she's just seems insecure. My thoughts are, what has happened to this woman to make her feel this way? Has he made her feel this way because of his actions? Is it a past relationship? So I'm never like, oh, wow, like grow up, you're insecure. I never ever think that. I'm literally like compassionate and thinking something happened to make her feel this way. So I think when in the job market, like good enough, not good enough, we're competing with men who are chummy, potentially chummy with each other and women. That's not to say that men aren't also competing with other men for positions, but they also will be like, Oh yeah, I'll put in a good word with you, I'll put in a good word for you with Dave.

SPEAKER_03 7:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Um, they're quicker to do that. I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Well, they're yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

I mean, if you think of them like golden retrievers.

unknown 7:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

And my cats, like, uh, because there's not a lot of like very masculine energy in my house. So my cats, when like there's like solid masculine energy, they scatter. So I feel this analogy. Like they're like underneath like the bed in the corner.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Being being caught. It doesn't mean they're afraid, they're being cautious. They're like, let me check this out. I'm not sure I'm trusting of this situation.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

Yes, yeah, yeah. That's so interesting. And yet we all can cohabitate together somewhat until, you know, we can't. Um, I was thinking more about she just went to like the whole divorce topic. Like, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Until we until the end. Until the end.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

Well, like with your mom and and her relationships, like, I feel like that's a comfortable place to s to stay with you, like until it doesn't. So you're like, yeah, I understand. Um right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Uh my mom has always said, don't I think anyone that's like, you know that pit in your stomach where you're like, I can't be around this person. Like, yeah. Yeah, I do know that. Um and may and I do think people can sometimes get past that, right? Like they work on it and say, and this person, you you shift and move and grow together and all of those things. So I'm not saying like throw in the towel the minute you get like a uh but I'm saying at the same time, like, I don't know how people I know there are women out there that walk into their home or driving up to their or men, but and they like cannot do not want to be there. And I'm like, I just don't understand how people can stay. I mean, I get circumstances and situations, but like to like do it day after day, I'm like, how like you just must be on edge all day long or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

Yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah. I'm I mean, I've lived it a couple times, and it's it's not pleasant to like look in the window and see your spouse's like back of their head or whatever, watching TV and like Yeah, so my mom has been married wanting nothing else but to not see that slam their heads into the TV.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

I mean, not see that. My mom's been married four times, and I will say though, like, even though I'm in a solid, very long-term committed relationship, like I kind of liked knowing in a sense, like she's taught me don't put up with that bullshit, like leave. You know, not that she like she had very long marriages as well, and is currently in a very long loving marriage. But she's also told them, like it's also empowered her. She's like, uh, you want to be like number, you want to be out the door, like with the rest of them.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Um, to a degree.

SPEAKER_03 10:23

Yeah. And I mean, to be fair, she's been with Tom for at least 20 years. Oh, yeah. More, yeah. For 20 years old.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Yeah. Uh yeah, yeah, like probably that. So she figured it out. Yeah, but even like last week, she was pissed off at him, and it was to do with like kids and grandkids, and he doesn't have any, and they're, you know, all that. So yeah, she was giving him the riot act last week. Like, it's dude, get it together. Like, this is these are my priorities. Like, figure it out. Otherwise, I I can make alternative arrangements. Yeah, good for her. But it wasn't like, oh, I'm sick of seeing your head, watch TV. It was more like, hey, you're you're I'm I'm too old for each thing. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna deal with you like putting up barriers and all of that. So that it was it was different, but yes. To each their own. That's the that's the sign, ladies. If you're sick of their head watching TV, it's time.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

You want to do bad things. I do know that's the sign, though. That is my sign. I have uh that's uh oh, it's happening. Time to move on.

unknown 11:39

It's happening.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Is Oliver listening to the podcast?

SPEAKER_03 11:45

He's gonna be like he doesn't listen to my podcast.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Oliver's gonna, if he heard it, he'd go, he'd go. So I'm done watching TV. I'm never watching it around stop.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Yeah, next time I go over there, there's gonna be like eight TVs on the front curb, like free.

unknown 12:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Just watch that volume, guys. My god, the TV volume. I can't. They're just listening.

SPEAKER_03 12:07

They just don't have a filter with it. Like they just it's like, how can you like literally sit here and the TV is so loud? He watches sports too. Like, he's the first guy that I've been with that will like actively just like watch sports to like I know to like I mean I yeah, I've been doing this. And uh it was like I don't know, whatever. It's not my thing. I would rather have like no TV on, like nothing. Yeah, yeah. Than like just something random as like a filler.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah. If I need a filler, I'd rather do honestly like a podcast or um like I I mean I watch my I'm watching like I'll watch like my show. Yeah. While like on my phone while getting ready or something. But usually actually I prefer music if I need a filler.

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Yeah. I actually prefer um uh YouTube. Like I'll have it something on my phone versus the TV. And I think that's like a that's that that's like a women women are evolved to that level where they're like, oh, well, then I can just go and get ready and watch it. You can carry it with you. Yeah, you can do laundry. I mean, oh, there we go. Yeah, but and guys just like I'll just sit here.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Sit here with my head. Yeah. Watching TV.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

And we're like, our head's on the move. Yes, yeah. But they do, I will get they guys do decompress differently. I've for sure. Yeah, oh yeah. That is part of their like that is something.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

Okay, but that goes back to the thing. Like, we don't decompress. Like, what the fuck is that?

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Uh and and then uh don't you decompress by like going on a girl trip once a year? Isn't that enough? Like that's what a they would be like, but you went like six months ago to Sedona, like yeah, in my case, 18 years ago. Um That was my 40th birthday. It was six and her 40th birthday yeah, it was not 18 years ago, but yes, it was six years ago. Five. I don't know how many years, five years ago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

But yeah, um, I was thinking more now that we're on that topic, but I was thinking more of glass ceilings. Like sometimes we just can't see the value that we bring to our business and to others. And um, sometimes it's easier, right? Like for me, it's always easier for me to see, like I I feel like I see like what you bring, the value you bring, and I'm like, oh my gosh, you like you bring so much value to your clients, you should charge more, right? Uh-huh. And I and I for my own business, I don't I don't get to see that in my own business, right? I don't feel like I see that, that I bring that to that much value, right? And it's our own glass ceiling that puts us there.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

I think there's a couple things with it. Like one, I always say, and I'll probably say that if people listen regularly, uh get to that point, whatever, they will like talk to yourself like a friend. You can easily tell me these positive things about myself, but then you're gonna rip yourself apart. And it's not like, oh, someone told me today I should talk to myself like a friend, and now I do it all the time. It's not easy. It's actually very hard. So remembering that at time at those times of like, like yesterday, you went to lunch with Lacey, um, one of our mutual friends, well, she's been on, and one of our mutual friends, and you said, you know, you were having a moment like just talking down on yourself, and then you went and um, you know, put positive spins on things and you were in a much better mood after the launch.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Yeah, I woke up feeling very frustrated in life with my business, with myself, and um I'm trying to fix that. It's so hard though, and I it's really hard to not wake up and feel frustrated. And I'm okay, you shouldn't wake up feeling frustrated.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Like you're like, every day I wake up, instant frustration. I mean, like, give yourself like five minutes.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

I it takes me like five minutes to get out of it, so I can like have the attitude. But you know, I I do I wake up, this is how I wake up. I wake up because my dog, who's like 110 pounds, is in my face, breathing in my face. And then my eyes open, and then there's two cats like sitting on the floor just staring at me. And the second I move, like everybody's just like on me. And cause they need to eat, they need to eat. Yeah, because they need, yeah, they yeah, and sometimes I'm like, when are people gonna stop? When are things gonna stop needing me? Like, when am I gonna be able to just like wake up and like not have to like give something back to somebody else? And um that could that's like not a great feeling sometimes, you know. And I think it's it's something that I always feel like people have taken advantage of me, right? So it's like actually a wound, it's not a oh how.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

So you went and got through I'm sure people are sitting there going, you went and got these animals.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

I mean, I got the dog, the cat. They found you. The cats found me. Um but you know, it's like a wound of like, oh my gosh, since I was 16, somebody's needed me. And then but then but the actual reality is that like what am I not giving to myself, right? Like that's the that's the shift, right? Like, why am I why is it not enough? Why am I not enough? And it it just yeah. So those are my mornings. That's kind of how I start.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Well, that's so you you're gonna have to like restructure that somehow because the key the animals aren't going away. Like I know you love them and you want them, and you're not like and like for anyone thinking, oh, she hates her animals, why'd she get animals? That's not about the exactly.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Yeah, no, and I'm you know, I'm moving in with Oliver in a couple months, and and you know, so it's like it's not like I actually want to be alone. Right. It's more of like what am I not giving to myself that I wake up and I feel like feeding these beautiful animals. I mean, really, like they give me so much joy. Yeah, yeah. And the you know, and the cats, they're not even hungry. They just want to like, you know, they're just waiting for their person to like Yeah, they're just waiting to, you know, hang out. And oh my gosh. I like it does kind of go back to the wounds of marriage a little bit, you know. I remember walking down the stairs at my last house, and it's like, oh, I don't want to see him. I don't wanna, ew, he's gonna be there. You know, and it's I decided I think maybe I have some healing to do around this subject, apparently. I wasn't expecting to go here this morning.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Yeah, and it's interesting that the animals are kind of like this tool for you to recognize it, which is interesting. You know, like you're just when you wake up in the morning, like you're not thinking, oh, I'm feeling this way because of these things, but now talking about it out loud, you're like realizing, oh, yeah, this could be like why. Yeah. So I don't know. Um, yeah, I don't have advice, by the way. Yeah. Because like you know, because you get you'll get in these like a trauma, like you're thinking of past trauma, or you're like stuck in the rut of like not stuck, but like you're like, oh, that's what and what do you typically do? I mean, I know you have done therapy, like, like what is your current, like, I'm gonna try this because it'll help me with this.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Um, my podcast, basically. But um, what's interesting is now that we're talking about this, and now that I'm like recognizing the pattern, is I crashed out this weekend. And um when I crash out, it's like I go into like a freeze mode. And I just talked about this on the podcast, so I apologize to everybody that's listening, but um I shut down, like I shut down completely, like emotionally, physically. It's like uh I turn into like a little little armadillo, like a protective layer goes over me. It's like self-preservation, self-protection, and then I have to like work my way out of it. It's not pleasant. So I think I think that frustration that I was feeling yesterday morning is still like the residual from the crash out from the weekend.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

You know, so would you say the crash out was more brought on by this dress of like putting yourself out there in a new way with like the the class? Yeah. So do you do it does it typically correlate with something like that? Uh, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

But then that's so super awesome because you keep stupid you keep you keep doing it like you're not like oh this makes me feel really uncomfortable this I vulnerable like all of all of the things and you're like so I'm gonna stop doing it because like I don't wanna I don't want to feel that instead you're like nope I'm gonna put and then that's your glass ceiling and then so you we keep I told you the other day like we keep the goal always seems unattainable because we keep moving the goal which just means we keep making wanting more for ourselves and like wanting to grow yeah so you just keep moving your goal and that's gonna require like uncomfortableness and vulnerability really yeah yeah and I do I you know you said it that was the word it's like whenever I feel like super vulnerable I I will most likely crash out like you're you're in your armadillo shell and you're trying to protect yourself and you don't want to you just want to stay in that right or you don't necessarily want to stay in that but like something is making you stay in that because you you need that protection at that time. So what are some things like I know we talked about you know you went you went to lunch with a friend that was that was very helpful but like um what are some other things I know when you and I have gone like again we brought up Sedona like six years ago five years sorry I'm aging you five years ago that we um you know that was a fun trip it was it was good for our souls and I know you have a retreat coming up soon so I'm just thinking for people out there listening like this could be your moment to come out of their armadillo you know because what they're gonna not only are they gonna get that time for themselves and time away from everything that's you know all the all the ruckus yeah they're gonna walk away with like some clarity that you're gonna definitely help guide them through. Oh yeah that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

Um so when I when I think about crashing out right a burnout whatever you want to call it I think about that I'm in a car and I'm driving to a destination that I'm excited about because generally speaking I'm a pretty like excited person for life and I run out of gas right like I know I'm close to running out of gas but I think I can make it but I don't I love that and so I'm sitting on the side of the road right there's there's options a I cannot call anybody for help and I can just sit there and wait to see who stops by maybe get murdered maybe get raped maybe get you know and I could call or I could call somebody right and in the past the people I would call for help to bring me gas would most likely bring me the gas but they would be mad at me because I ruined their day right like I will do this for you but you are going to pay and um that makes me sad. It is really sad. It's a very and um so that's that was my normal up until you know not that less than like four and a half years ago when I've learned that there are people out there that are willing to bring me gas and and would appreciate the call to like maybe they can't but they're gonna at least try you know or they're gonna be very empathetic and be like you know what that that sucks you you almost got there you ran out of gas I'm gonna come and help you out because it's gonna make my day better knowing that I helped you or whatever. You know like there's so many things out there but like learning that skill and learning that it's okay to ask for help that's what I consider a crash out right so like the retreat, the hikes, even the photo sessions, right? That's all gives me an opportunity to help somebody that maybe is stuck on the side of the road that that might just need somebody there that's that's not going to be angry with them for crashing out or being low or whatever. And it's a totally like a a different change of perspective and for me going to retreats and going on hikes with other hike leaders you know all of that stuff has has helped me understand that there are people out there that really just want to hold space and help. So that's where that's that comes from. That's what I do anyways.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

And one nice thing about it too like with the hikes and stuff um because that's kind of what I've been going on recently with you um is it also gets you a out of just your normal right so it's like yes normal I mean yes you and I are there I'm there uh you're there but like it's that oh I'm venting to my husband not that that's there's anything wrong with that or that I shouldn't do that. It's just a different is to change the scenery it's uh you're moving your body which is super important. Um and just you're connecting with people you know maybe or people you kind of know and then totally new people you don't know and I love that like it's this mix. So and you're doing it for you. Every time I've gone on a hike I'm like okay there's been like two I act like I've not like I don't know you went on the last you know when I used to do it you went on a few two oh yeah yep yeah so like I'm always running around like a chicken with my head to cut off and I'm like oh my god there's so much to do I shouldn't even go do this and the last time I was definitely almost trying to fuck myself out of it just because like I knew I was crazy busy, right? Um and I'm like oh my gosh it's like two hours like just go just just go do it. And then I felt way better after I slept better. I yeah came back better for my family. I wasn't so like oh let's like get through bedtime or let's just you know what I mean I was like silly and playful and it's if you don't step back and you don't um work on that then you will be I I'm just gonna say like be grouchy I guess.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

I don't know that's me so yeah it's the same thing though it's like you either fill up your tank or you or you lose or or it goes empty.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Yeah and for me I don't get to see so much that I'm running on empty and I guess that kind of goes back to that same question that I that I um wanted to ask you right and it's why being good at what you do isn't enough because we can't always see right we can't always see like where we are running out of gas and go go ahead well it's interesting because you you I have positive things to say about the things that you've put together and like obviously what I j everything I just said and like you put that you organize that you put it together you've caught you know you've collected this group of people and you're and it's it's changing and it's always different and it's always and interesting and insightful and all those things and I can sit here and tell you all this and you'll you might walk away feeling like oh that was that was that did that made me feel better like Shannon said these things. And then every the how many women were there like six other women or four four other women six five five other women sorry they I'm trying to count they would probably all say similar things like that was great. Thank you for I mean they did at the end like that was great thank you for putting this together da da da yeah but you're not hearing it and I'm not I'm not picking on you I'm everyone we are so bad at hearing the positive and latching onto the negative and it's every single person practically in the world.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

So what's gonna make you hear it like I mean I think I talked about you slapping me in the face last time so now do I have to slap you in the face to make you like hear it I Right no I was just thinking about what does penetrate like how do you because how I it's just funny because how I wanted to what I was thinking about this conversation is where do you find how do you find the holes in your business right you just use the word penetrate and holes in like one one round here and it's penetrating boy brain is like all over that one. Yeah I'm sure there's some some subliminal or not whatever. Anyways back back to penetrating the holes yeah yeah but maybe the reality is is like we've gotten so good at seeing the holes that we can't see where the you know are going to where the legs are going we know how to plug the holes no I'm joking um this is hard to wrap my head around now that you're talking sexual I can't I I don't usually keep these things not usually but like I try to keep these things inside and like at work sometimes on occasion. Okay so we get so used to penetrating the holes that we don't see where where where we don't have to stick things I guess like okay you're gonna have to flip we don't we need a whole other analogy because you I think you've lost it.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

No kidding I that's but I everything anyone does throughout their life like people have told me multiple times like you're a good mom you're a good mom there's still gonna be those days and nights where I'm like I didn't do this today. I didn't do enough so again like good good good not being good enough you can put that uh measurement on a every aspect of your life parenting uh relationships marriage uh friendships like all of it I guess we all just need to give ourselves a break and be like you are doing good you are good enough and fucking like we all just need to like slap ourselves yeah for a minute and give ourselves like a pat on the back I will say very rarely but every once in a while I will say to myself like knock it off knock it off.

SPEAKER_03 34:04

Yeah yeah you know something that you brought up on the hike was how answering an email like a man oh yeah would versus a woman and I there's like part of this too that we can go back to kind of how we started it it is um we can take some insight from that right we can you know when a when a guy catches a big fish like how many times are you gonna hear about it right eight nine ten when we do something good like a lot of times I just don't even say anything right like yeah and I I do think there is something about are you gonna like look at the dog shit or are you gonna look at the sunset right like both can exist in the same frame but like what are you gonna focus on? And and I kind of love that. So going back to like you know even crash outs depression running out of gas like I guess if you could flip it a little bit and and see it more as a positive like oh this is my body telling me that I need rest and I don't have to judge that so harshly.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

You know a lot of a lot of times on the weekends I you know it's it's makeup for what you didn't get done during the week. That sounds fun. Um so yeah I though on a lot of there's a space of throughout the weekend that I will I just can't anymore. And I end up usually like kind of laying in bed but like my 10 year old Max like he'll lay with me and we'll chill and maybe we'll play like Roblox or something. And it'll be sunny and beautiful out and I'm like in my room with the the you know no filtering no light filtering curtains and I like feel guilty and I'm like he's we're in it we're not doing some like we're not and then I'm like I can't I I can't do anymore. I'm like I can't do it. Yeah I can't and then I just and so that but then I but it's not like oh I can't do anymore. I'm gonna take a I'm gonna take a couple hours just chill and not do anything and or whatever and then even though I'm still kind of entertaining my son my child um but I feel guilty. Yeah. So like do it without guilt that would be nice because then I think if you're doing it and you feel guilty you're still not getting that reprieve because now you have this new like layer of like stress and guilt. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

Yeah I mean that I can't get over I think that was a huge part of you know when I did a lot of solo traveling and I was going to retreats and you know doing all that stuff to technically like save myself I I always felt really guilty about it. You know, we talked about Sedona and it's like I felt guilty about Sedona right like oh I I'm with Shannon in Arizona my husband can't take me out for my 40th birthday right and I I don't even think he messaged me till like 6 p.m that night I don't know if you remember but I'm like oh wow he didn't even like wish me happy birthday like and here I am feeling guilty for being but maybe he was mad. Maybe he was mad that I was there and I those feelings are valid. But yeah guilt definitely will will drain your battery quicker. It's like right leaving the dome light on if it doesn't seem like it's a big deal until it's on for a long time. And yeah I I I don't know what's going on with these car analogies today but I don't know but I'm kind of liking it.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

It's a good visual right it's relatable yes you everyone drive everyone's been in a car drives a car has a car. Yep. So yes unless you're my teenage children. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

Yeah so like how do you I I mean yeah I that's where like the gratitude comes in I guess and the you know I maybe I'm not outside but I'm spending time with my kids maybe I'm not moving my body but my body needs rest.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Like yeah there's when I'm doing it my body is like I'm like my body is like I like I have to like my body's done. Um so yeah getting past the when you eat okay so we're all about like take the time you will yourself do it for yourself do it for your family because or you're whoever you're whoever yourself and then also maybe you you're like I've just been in a slump at work and like so do it for your business do it for whatever it is but how now it's like there's another okay but do it without feeling guilty right how does that happen and why does that happen? I'm like really asking does anyone know? I I'm in a traffic jam so if any of these people could tell me yell out the window hello yeah I mean we're going slow enough I probably could does anyone know how to not feel guilty when you take time for yourself?

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Um thanks yeah and because you always feel so much better when you do yeah it's almost like just a barrier between do you really want to feel better or not? Like it's more just like a question of you know like you actually have to put in the effort to like jump over that hurdle to the other side. It's almost just like uh okay like you should really do this and I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

I will say one thing I'll I'll often and I'll try to tell myself like oh my God it's like four days out of a year out of 365. It's like four days out of a year. It's like three days out of a year. It's you know yeah and then I'm like this is like a bullet like this is no time at all. So just you give all this other time to these to work and family and whatever else you know like yeah it's okay to do a few days out of the year if that's like needed or if that's gonna help you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

Yeah I think I I think my goal is to avoid a crash out for like the next three months.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

And your car.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Your crash out is with the car too I don't think you I don't think you were saying that for at first like it was just how you worded the crash out yeah yeah like like how when I go about structuring my day which I think is also very important um how how do I how do I give myself enough during my day to avoid that those feelings of you know because like what is a cra like I'm fine with vulnerability, right? I understand like it does cause things, but it's also like how do I avoid feeling depleted? How do I avoid feeling like I'm not doing enough you know how do you how do we avoid all these feelings and I think it's about it's well A, it's not about avoiding right you have to honor them and honor them in a way that's like this is what I'm gonna do for myself. Yeah not the cat's not the dog and that's where I mean that goes back again to like the hikes and the walks and the coffee with a friend or lunch with a friend or you know listening to a podcast or whatever like us women have to do because it seems like actively engaging is how we de-stress like I think it's for me it's the alone time it's the stuck in my head time yeah that and maybe that's why watching sports doesn't really work for a lot of women because like I just zone out. Like I'm fine watching sports but like I'm not into it. I'm not the only thing going on in my brain is sports. Like that doesn't happen. It's more like like what just happened like oh I was thinking about something else. So I think it's really just other things. Yeah yeah but good for men that that I'm sure it's like there's a reason for that that they can just like focus on a thing. Or even like a movie like I have a hard time focusing in movies too like anything anything where I have to sit down all of a sudden I'm just like a little my family hates watching anything movie.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

So Willa and I will watch shows and movies together but I I can't so I told her I have to be doing something else. So there was a time where we were watching a movie and she I go I I I will watch this with you but I'm gonna I'm gonna fold laundry and I folded laundry and I said she goes well you won't pay attention I go no this will be good because I can't grab my phone or my laptop or I can't get I can't get up as much because I'm like busy doing something. Yeah and then so I got it all folded and then I started kind of getting up like doing other stuff and she goes oh my gosh you were right she goes you sat the whole time while you were folding laundry and like paid attention the movie like your hands are you know like yeah she was like do you more laundry to fold like get some more laundry up your bitch like some laundry yeah she's like and she because at first she's like mom you're not gonna pay if you're doing laundry and she was like that's the most you've sat and engaged like paid attention in forever I'm like yeah I know I'm sorry because we why we watch shows regularly we're watching dynasty right now like the dynasty remake and I do I told her I um I just have to be doing some I can't I don't know it's not probably healthy or good to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

Well I think whenever you can force yourself to like not work knowing you I think it's a it's a plus right did you feel better or worse after getting your laundry done and spending time with your daughter right I'm assuming you felt better versus if you were working and didn't do that you probably would have felt worse.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Yeah I So and when we watch Dynasty, I'm not always like this is late at night after like this is like before we go to bed, kind of. So like I play Roblox. I know it's these monotony, like you just keep you keep doing the same thing, like depending. Like and one, I'm like shooting zombies. I don't it's so it's goal, it's goal-oriented. So I have a goal to kill the most zombies that I can and you know save the universe. And you have zombies, so this is I hate zombies, so it's perfect and I'm killing those fuckers. Um, and then so yes, it's goal-oriented. I'm actively doing something. I never ever was like did get into video games or anything like that. And I don't know, like I like the idea of like I have to do this step to do this step to do this stuff, like in the game or whatever. And and then I like I achieved something, even though I don't really care about any of these games to be honest, and I'm not really stuck on like one like I used to be. I won't, I won't talk about that one, but um so I do feel bad, like yes, I'm not, but I also told her when we're watching like our show or usually I've watched it, so I'm like, Willa, I watched the I've already watched all of these. I'm watching it again because I know you would enjoy it, and she totally gets sucked into them. You know, she's like, and she goes, Mom, I just can't. So me and Willa have different flavors, similar but different flavors of ADHD. Her flavor is like I have to be honed in on this, or else nothing. Like she is you can just see it in her face.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

Like she is out in the wild, and you're like, holy, yeah, you're back though. Uh two, one, and now it's back, I think. So okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Anyways, just saying I I tell her all the time, she's like, you can multitask because we'll again we'll be and she'll miss like something on and I'll say no, this is happening because of blah blah blah. And she's like, How do you know that? You weren't even like you weren't even like paying any attention. And I'm like, I mean, I think that comes with age also, but yeah, I've always been good at like taking it all in, no matter even if I look like I'm doing something else. Do you can do that, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:01

Um, I am definitely more like your daughter.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Yeah, you you have to you don't like it so rambunctious.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

Yeah, like if I'm watching a movie, like I'm so into it that it's like I I have to be or I'm not, right? Like, just like we talked about with sports. It's like I'm either checked in or checked out. So there's there's no gray.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

I have the best story. It's I'll make it quick. It's about a movie. It's about me watching a movie. And we watched the movie Obsidian recently. Nope, not Obsidian. That is a app that I'm using to organize my life. Ignore me. Um, it's called Obsession.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Obsidian.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

Oh my gosh, the movie. Yes. We watched Obsidian. Oh, I watched that. Yeah, that was the new one. Like it just came out.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Uh yeah, like I had trouble sleeping after I watched it and was very um irritated by that because I kept picturing Nikki in the corner of my room staring at me. It's yeah. I'm a wimp, as you know, like I'm a wimp. I'm scared when stuff said I was scared of zombies. I'm scared of the thriller video. Yeah. My family's a bit of talk about that, but teases me. Yeah, it's a whole thing. And uh, anyways, so maybe we'll have to talk about the time with the edibles, and then I texted you and said the zombies are coming to get me. Um, anyways, uh hence the reason Shannon doesn't take edibles. Yeah, it's that I I yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:38

You kind of just go off the deep end a little bit with them. Like everything, you're very sensitive to things.

SPEAKER_01 48:43

Yeah, yeah. So, right, you're like a couple sips of alcohol. And I'm like, Woo! So just don't, I don't need a lot of it, anything. Um, but obsession that we watched it, and then we we asked my son, like, hey, do you want to watch this with us? And he said yes. And then he goes, but I and Scott, my husband hates when people talk during movies. And so my son was like, Yeah, but like I don't want like if you're gonna if you guys, you know, if you're gonna be talking, because Willa was watching it too, and she's a talker like me. And I was like, no, like we're gonna, and you, you know, Scott's like, no, we're not she's for good, like blah, blah, blah. So we get done with the movie, and I had I did really good, like really good for me. And I said, What do you think of the movie? And I said, and he goes, I don't want to say because I don't want to offend anyone. And I said, Oh, you didn't no, no one here wrote this or directed this movie. What do you mean, offend someone? Like you had you can tell your opinion of the movie. Like, I didn't know what he was talking about, you know. He goes, I just really don't like watching movies with people who talk. I was like, What? I was in rage. I'm like, oh, I thought I did so good. I tried so hard. I really did. And I just watched it and I didn't have any devices or any laundry or any. I tried not to get up and go to the bathroom 18 times and make popcorn and get soda and stuff. That all happened multiple times, but I really tried.

unknown 50:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

I was like, oh no one likes watching movies with me, is the moral of this uh yeah conversation.

SPEAKER_03 50:23

I would say I am more on the spectrum than I am ADHD.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

Oh, yes. I forget everyone's not ADHD. Sorry, I apologize for that remembering that.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

Yeah, I there's there's certain times where I feel like um I have I mean I run really well. Well, right, until you crash out. Having m multiple tabs open. Uh-huh. Um and that works for me, but some people with ADHD get like almost like tunnel vision where there's so many tabs open that everything gets stuck and nothing comes out, um, except for like the shiniest, prettiest object. And I don't have that kind of ADHD. Or I have more of like an autism where it's like whatever's in front of me, I'm gonna try to like fully engage in, or not at all. I don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Yeah, it's that's so the obsidian, this obsession. No, I'm back to obsidian. Okay, we're back to obsidian. Yes, the it's hard when you have you know words with the same effing letter, apparently. Yeah. Um uh it it's supposed to I I I set it all up. It's supposed to help you stay organized, on task. It can Claude can assist with all of that. And um, so I did, and yesterday I I sat at my computer when and I'm like, oh my gosh, I I can't like I don't even know where to start. There's so much, and I have like a sticky note over here, and I have this over here, and then I do have like my to-do list on on my computer on obsidian, and then and I just needed to like take a minute back and take the time to like really focus and bring it all in and like structure. And then I realized I had three meetings in a row and that never happened. So yeah, gonna see if I can get that today. Um, but yeah, maybe that's a that that could be a really good topic um to talk about how to stay on task. Um, especially when and I'm gonna use small business owners as an example because if there's a fire, how do you not put it out? Like it's your it's you, it's your business. Like it's right, and you might be have a small staff or none, no, you are the staff, or whatever that is. So, and I'm gonna for you, for example, you have an event coming up. So, when you have an event coming up, because I help a lot of agents, and I've I've event I always end up in this event organization and helping put on events and marketing events, and you can't not you can't ignore the deadlines, like you can't be like, Oh, I'll get to that tomorrow, because then the event's gonna happen. So if you're like over here running this, your business, and then you're like, Oh, I'm gonna put on event, and Lacey would be a great person to speak to this, because um she does she does both of those things, like you have to pause, you have to go put out the fire to it sometimes. Like if you have a staff member that maybe you can put it out, that's great. But if it's you and then it pulls away, I guess if you have staff, then you're like, hey, go do deal with the event because I'm gonna go deal with the fire, or I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 53:56

Yeah, I think that's well, and you know, for a single entrepreneur, solo entrepreneur, that's where um I get a lot of benefit from having a coach of some sort that can keep me um I want to say in alignment, but that's not the right word. That somebody, and again, I guess this goes back to the topic that is so funny because we literally never talk about it, but I keep bringing it back up. Like it's like somebody that can see a bigger picture and keep you on task. And I know you're talking about an app and Claude, and that's a whole nother subject because Claude, your Claude, like fucks with you hard. I know. And there goes back to the sexual reference again. Claude's fucking you hard, Shannon. Claude's penetrating you. Are you gonna let it fuck you hard?

SPEAKER_01 54:51

It's penetrating all the holes. It's penetrating all the holes, including like my ears, my ear hole, like all of them.

SPEAKER_03 54:59

Out of like a computer penetrating your ear. I mean, I'm just thinking of all the holes I have. I was just thinking like a penis in your ear. Ew. Imagine.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

I I actually can't, and I don't like go on the dark lab, and I am careful about what I Google. I feel like that might be a thing somewhere somehow, and I don't want to know about it. Dude, like sticking his dick in your ear.

SPEAKER_03 55:24

I don't want to know about it.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

Oh, it feels so good. I won't be Googling that to see if it is a thing, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:31

Um, they'll stick it anywhere. This I know, anyways. Um I know. Well, I mean, I'm we know men, we know boys.

SPEAKER_04 55:43

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:45

Like you want to know what men do. Like, just look at your six-year-old son when he figures out he has a penis. Like, they're just like so excited about it. I know. Or babies, even when they're like little, they're always reaching down there to grab it. I know. So stop touching your wiener.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

And we're not encouraging other people to look at six-year-olds or babies, but oh no, I just meant like your own children, like um, anyways, so And boys are always like on the cow, like the little boys, they're always like on you're like in the kitchen making lunch, and then you come out and they're just like ex were girls, would like would never do that.

SPEAKER_03 56:21

No, no. Um anyways, oh my god. So speaking of ADHD, um much editing are you gonna have to do on this? Um so my Riverside app does a pretty good job of like taking out crap, but um, I'll just finish this real quick. I think that um when there are fires to be put out, both like from home personal fires and work fires and all that stuff, it's really helpful to have a coach or somebody else that's gonna help keep you on track. And as far as I know, the only thing that really helps me, because I've tried to do different projects and in Claude and all that stuff to keep me on task, the best thing for me is to have a goal and have the steps that I need. Even if it's once a month meeting with a coach and you know, recentering is so helpful for me. That's that's all I got.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

Yeah. And that's what I was like thinking yesterday, like, oh, I need to recenter. Like, I was like, okay, I have one million things to do, and so I just should just jump in and start doing them. And I was like, oh my God, you will get so much more out of your day if you take the time, the 30, 40 minutes, whatever it is, to like really streamline and and I have a team that I work with, and there's some things that I can hand off to them right now that I was like, I just need to even like unbury myself from that so I know what to better like set them up, you know. Yeah. So I'm at the office, and that's what I'm gonna go do.

SPEAKER_03 58:07

Okay. Well, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

I feel like we I don't know. It was I don't know about this. It wasn't I like it. It was a journey. It was a journey. Whoever wants to go along for the ride can get in their fuel gas car, car, field of car. Yeah, get and then uh, but yeah, whatever cuts, whatever bits you have to um cut, I'm never offended. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:35

All right. Um, and listeners, thank you so much for listening and tune in next time. If you'd like this episode, please share it with a friend, subscribe, comment, and we will see you guys later. Thank you. Thanks. Bye. Bye.