Ep15 Play, The Importance of representation and EMDR; An interview with Dr Chanae Mayers

It was an honour to interview Dr Mayers and hear about her journey to becoming a clinical psychologist. She talked about her experience of play and the importance of having toys, books and figures in psychology to support her aspirations. She gave a beautiful insight into her childhood growing up in the west midlands, in a big family and how she and her siblings continue the traditions of play.

Dr Mayers has a private practice, and she explained about EMDR and attachment trauma and how this can support adults in their everyday lives. 

Website: https://www.mayerspsychology.co.uk/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mayerspsychology/

Dr Chanae Mayers is a passionate Senior Clinical Psychologist and EMDR Therapist,
specialising in trauma and attachment difficulties. She has over 5 years’ experience working
with children, young people and families within the care system. She is trained in several
therapeutic approaches including Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing
(EMDR), Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy (DDP) and many more, helping clients to
process complex emotional experiences, build resilience and develop healthy attachment
relationships.
Driven by a passion for trauma-informed care, Dr Mayers’ private practice stems from
wanting to support adults who have experienced significant childhood trauma. Through her
work, she highlights the substantial impact of unprocessed trauma on interpersonal
relationships, friendships and professional lives. Her mission is to raise awareness of
developmental trauma and its biological impact, understanding how this leads to attachment
difficulties and impacts mental health.
Dr Mayers is deeply committed to black mental health, understanding the stigma and
barriers to accessing services within the black community. She is an advocate for addressing
intergenerational trauma, racial trauma, and the systemic challenges that contribute to
mental health disparities. Her published Thesis, Exploring the Experiences of Black Men
Through the Decision-Making Process in Secure Settings: A Qualitative Study, featured in
The Journal of Black Psychology, highlights the experiences of black men in secure inpatient
services. The study focused on biased decision-making processes related to conflict
management and their impact on black male service users. It highlights how these decisions
affect care, including seclusion, the use of restraint, and the application of the Mental Health
Act.
Dr Mayers is also dedicated to mentoring aspiring Clinical Psychologists, particularly those
from minority backgrounds. Having faced her own struggles seeing few professionals who
reflected her identity, she is passionate about reducing the barriers to entry for
underrepresented groups in Clinical Psychology and increasing diversity within the field.

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Transcript

Please note that this transcript was created during the editing process, and unfortunately, we do not have time to edit it.

Play and the importance of representation and EMDR -  an Interview with Dr Chanae Mayers

Philippa: [00:00:00] Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me, Philippa. And this week, my guest is Dr. Chanae Mayers. She's a passionate senior clinical psychologist specializing in trauma and attachment difficulties. She has over five years experience working with children, young people, and families within the care system.

She is trained in several therapeutic approaches, including eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing, which is EMDR. Dyadic development, pyschotherapy therapy, DDP, and many more, helping clients to process complex emotional experiences, build resilience, and develop healthy attachment relationships.

Chanae is driven by a passion for trauma informed care. Chanae has a private practice which stems from her [00:01:00] wanting to support adults who have experienced significant childhood trauma. Through her work, she highlights the substantial impact of unprocessed trauma on interpersonal relationships, friendships, and professional lives.

Her mission is to raise awareness of developmental trauma and its biological impact, understanding how this leads to attachment difficulties and impacts mental health. Dr. Mayers is deeply committed to black mental health, understanding the stigma and barriers to accessing services within the black community.

She is also dedicated to mentoring aspiring clinical psychologists, particularly those from minority backgrounds. Chanae, thank you so much for joining us today on, Pondering Play and Therapy. So you've got a lot going on there in your life. I don't know where I find the time. You're employed in [00:02:00] one area and you've also got your own private practice. Is that right? Yeah. So I do that on the side. Okay. So that's lovely. This is podcast is play and therapy. So you've got lots of therapy going on there. We can talk about some of those as well, but what about play? Do you play In therapy, have you always been interested in play?

There's lots of questions here. And what was play like? Because you live in the West Midlands, don't you? In quite a built up area. A city, really. I live in a very rural area. You live in a city. 

Chanae: Yes. I'm from Birmingham. I just have on my accent. So I have a very big family and we all live really close to each other. Mom's five minutes from my dad. My dad is 10 minutes. So we all live within a 20 minute radius of each other, really. It's really [00:03:00] nice growing up, having family so close by. 

Philippa: And were you, as a family, playful? Did you play? What was it like when you were growing up in Birmingham, within your family and community?

Chanae: It was really important. So on my dad's side of family, like we've got a very big family. So there's about. 13 cousins. And then it's like I had a few cousins on my mom's side, but there isn't a lot on that side. So I'd say the play happened mainly on my dad's side and we'd all come together on a Saturday at my grandparents house.

And I remember it used to be like the adults downstairs and like the kids upstairs. So we had to entertain ourselves really. That's where a lot of the play happened, so it was like rough and tumble play, I think wrestling was out then, and we used to like, recreate wrestling moves.

We played a lot of hide and seek to my granddad's annoyance, because we used to hide in his wardrobe with his clothes, coming [00:04:00] upstairs and telling us off because somehow we'd managed to find little hiding spaces in one bedroom. There was this game that we used to play where we turned off the lights in the room and then we had to feel our way around and see if we could find people in the dark and then you had to leave the room we used to climb up the wall like spider man.

And then we used to go to the park together a lot. So it was playing cricket, playing rounders, football, being on our bikes together or, roller skates or rollerblades. So we did do a lot as a family, growing up. And then, sometimes it would be the PlayStation, my cousin used to have the first playstations the first games then we do competitions with the games because i'm the oldest granddaughter so i'm the second oldest out of the cousins and i'd say growing up as well my mom's been a really big influence so my mom was a youth [00:05:00] worker so there's nothing that we didn't do we went to alton tower straight and manor all the time because she used to just take us with her and the trips.

I was a very creative child when I was younger, and that's because I was so shy. So I was really shy. You wouldn't believe it now, but I was a very shy child. Absolutely 

Philippa: not. 

Chanae: Yeah, I'm a very shy child and because my mom, Being a youth worker used to have access to a lot of, arts and crafts supplies.

So she used to bring those home and, raid the cupboards. So I'd have, tissue paper, toilet paper rolls, all the pens and pencils and paints that you could think of, and I used to draw a lot of sunsets. I used to do, fashion designs and I had, something on my wall where I'd create, women and fashion designs.

She always used to laugh because she said that I used to draw in the cleavage. And she was like, wow, you could tell that would come from a big wrested family, so that's what she used to joke with. So yeah, so that was, what we used [00:06:00] to do growing up and, I don't know if you remember the days of Art Attack, Philippa. But she used to record those and then we used to, play it back and then she'd sit down in the living room with us and, do something from Art Attack, because she knew that's what I enjoyed, so there was a lot of that at home with my mum. And then obviously, just doing stuff with other kids because, again, she was a youth worker, so we always used to go to play scheme.

That seems to be a thing of the past now, which is such a shame, I'd get to do a lot of more activity based play, like table tennis, I'd play pool, I'd play basketball, I'd get to go ice skating, we'd just go to the park and play, Hide and seek and tag and British bulldog, we'd do that kind of stuff in the park.

On our own, like climbing trees, like we'd get up to all sorts. I've had quite a big exposure to play. I think through my mum's job and through just having such a big family as well, and being so close to that family. 

Philippa: It [00:07:00] sounds like play has been a really, when you were growing up, a really important way of how you connected as a family, doing things together playfully, whether it was on the PlayStation or playing in the park or, with your parents creating things.

So it sounds like that really helped you connect and stay together and have moments of joy, within your family. 

Chanae: Definitely, and I always remember, Sunday, so when my parents split up, my dad moved in with my grandparents. So then, when we'd go and see my dad, I got to spend that extra time with my grandparents.

And, yeah. When my nan stopped making us go to church, when we made the decision to not go anymore, my granddad used to take us to the park, so that was our morning thing instead of church. So he would take me and my brother to the park, just remember him giving us bumps and the seesaw, and then he'd, get us sweets on the way back.

And that used to be our Sunday ritual, which was lovely. And, those are like key memories for me, with my [00:08:00] granddad 

Philippa: Those are so important, aren't they? Those times of joy. I know that you've talked before, I think, was it about your aunt giving you the first doll that really represented you and your culture?

Chanae: Yeah, so my auntie used to, and my mum's side used to travel a lot, so she went to New York and I remember her giving me like my first black doll, and I loved that doll, that doll went everywhere, so it had these Ankle boots are, it was a very much a hip hop doll and I loved it and it had these little shorts, it had a hat and, bub limped hair and I was just so excited, to have that doll because that was like the first representation, of me seeing someone that looked like me, like we never had black Barbies then., it's amazing how far they've come now in terms of the variety that you can get now, but that wasn't accessible, back then. But I'd say my mum always tried really hard to get that representation. I remember [00:09:00] having a tooth fairy book and it was a black tooth fairy and I was like, oh, that is, and then my mom said that I used to write notes to the tooth fairy. So she said that one time I written notes, and I put it under my pillow and I said, Dear Tooth Fairy, are you black or white? Please tick the box.

Because I'd had that book in my head like, oh my god, like the Tooth Fairy's black. And then I wanted to know, and I remember waking up and she'd ticked the black box, and I was like really excited, because I wholeheartedly believed in Tooth Fairy, was probably the few things that I did believe in. So that book was really important to me.

And my mum always used to search out books that represented, me, represented us as a, as a black family. And that was always really important because she felt that we wasn't going to get taught properly in school. So she's I want to teach you beforehand. , in year four, I'd read The Diary of Harriet Tubman.

So I'd read that in year [00:10:00] four. I remember my auntie getting me a calendar of the key black figures in history. And they always used to make sure that, I knew about stuff like that, so, they would search out books where, you had black characters, where I had that representation.

So they did work really hard in that respect to make sure that's something that I had 

Philippa: You know, 30 years ago, that was quite a task for them to do, wasn't it? Because it wasn't something that was freely represented. And if it was, I imagine that some of them were quite derogatory in their representation.

They weren't a true representation of families. There were stereotypes more than, what families are really like, complex and mixed and all those sorts of things. 

Chanae: Yeah, I agree. So yeah, it was very hard, but they worked very hard to make sure that I did have access.

Philippa: And that, I wonder if that feeds then into your work now about wanting to be, supporting clinical [00:11:00] psychologists from ethnic minorities and, championing or having a voice for your community I wonder both kind of in an inner city and as a black person as well. 

Chanae: Yeah, that's really important to me, representation. It's important to me because when I was an assistant, I'd see like trainee psychologists come in and, clinical psychologists and they didn't look like me. And I didn't realize how demotivating that was, for me until I met my first black female clinical psychologist.

And again, that happened by accident. I took my mom to an event about black mental health. That was happening in Birmingham, and I was in a workshop and then, I had seen a raised hand and it was a black woman. She's like, Oh, I'm a clinical psychologist. And my head turned so fast.

I was like, Oh my God, like I've never seen one before. It was like, so I was like, Oh my gosh. So then I remembered going up to them after and saying, you're the first black female psychologist that [00:12:00] I've met. Please can keep in touch I'm trying to apply for the doctorate.

And that just added a whole new level of motivation for me and, making me realize that actually, okay, there are people that look like me I can do this, and I didn't realize, how important it was for me to have that representation and, meet somebody that looked like me I wanted to carry that on really because I've mentored people where they've said, Oh, you are the first black female psychologist that I've met. We're in 2025 the last year. I'm like. I shouldn't be the first that people are meeting. 

Philippa: Absolutely. And it's so hard for somebody like me really to understand.

I can, I suppose I can conceptualise an empathise, but feeling it in your body is something that you have to live through. Don't you? Do you know what I mean? I'm in quite a privileged position. I'm a white, middle class woman who lived on a white, middle [00:13:00] class estate. And so everybody looked like me and, yes, there's women's rights and all those sorts of things.

And but for to not to be able to see somebody in the roles that you want to be in that all look like you is you. It really is hard for me to even imagine that really. So the fight that you must have had to have with inside you, to really keep pushing through those barriers, not just of being a woman and a young woman, but also a young black woman.

And also we're from the North. And I think being in the north is also sometimes a bit of a, do you know what I mean? It's a bit of a barrier when you've got our accents, and those sorts of things. So there's, there's lots going on. So who were your role models? So you met that clinical psychologist, but what gave you that drive?

It sounds like your mom and your family were, but were there people outside of that, that you were thinking, actually, [00:14:00] I can do this. This is going to be how I'm going to push forward. 

Chanae: I think it's just my parents really because, both my parents have degrees my dad's a pharmacist, my mom's a youth worker and then worked her way up to be senior manager of, community centers.

And they always told me, there's nothing that you can't do. And maybe that you have to work harder because of the color of your skin. Because you are young black female. But you will get there and they always said you will get there. And, even when I felt demotivated, even when I felt low, feeling like life was passing me by, they were always there.

They always said, Chanae, you can do it you've got this. And I'd say they were my main role models. And then obviously when I've met them, black female psychologists, I do remember the names actually, Loretta and, And she actually trained at Staffordshire Uni as well. She remained a contact and, said that she would mentor me, to keep in touch.

And so Loretta Davies, her full name [00:15:00] is. And, yeah, that was really lovely. And actually then, we reconnected in qualified life as well. So then I got to thank her and say you really motivated me. Thank you so much for, your support. Which was really nice. And I'm also part of a kind of black trainee group as well of, trainee clinical psychologists and those of us who have qualified.

And it's just a really supportive space. And it's just really nice to see, other black psychologists connecting with other people and just really motivating, each other as well. When we're still not seeing people that look like us within the field. And I'd say that's been a constant, motivator as well that just keeps me 

Philippa: So you're passing it on through your mentorship. Do you pass it on to the younger generation of your family as well? Are you taking that role and building the younger generation and your family up? And do you use play to do that? 

Chanae: Yeah, so my young cousins have [00:16:00] come to me for advice and, What we've started doing as well is having games nights with all of us now, because some of my cousins have got kids, my brother's got kids, I've got two nieces, so we wanted to recreate what we had, when we were younger as a family, because I move away from electronics, because we just had a conversation, we said like, we miss that, we miss being together as a family regularly because it was always okay we went to my nan's every Saturday and you know that was our thing so we wanted to recreate that so we've made a conscious effort now.

to have games nights. We bring board games and we bring snacks. Uh, we bring a dish, we cook together and we sit down and we just play games and the kids get involved. We take away their iPads and we encourage them to actually talk and play with each other. It's so lovely to see, because we will go in the living room, say we have the kitchen and they have the living room, We'll go in the living [00:17:00] room and they're just playing with each other, they're talking, they're looking at each other, they're creating their own games.

And it's just, it's so lovely to see. And that's what we wanted to recreate for them that we had as children because they didn't get that. And so we're trying to give them that back as well. And then we're creating our own childhood memories by all of us, Coming together, sitting together, having a little drink, playing games, and really connecting with each other as a family, and that's really important.

Philippa: So those relationships are really important, and is it those relationships that led you into wanting to be a psychologist? Was it your mum's career path, your mum work with the youth and those sorts of things, or was it something else that led you to think, actually, I'm going to be a psychologist?

Chanae: I think one because I am nosy. So I've always wanted to know why we do the things that we do. I've always known that I wanted to work with children. I adore children. Again, my mom's [00:18:00] work, I've just been exposed to children as well. And I think wanting to help children. So my mom has always worked in the more deprived areas in Birmingham.

And so I've seen the struggles that other children have had, where they've come to play scheme and they haven't had enough money for lunch that day. And then my mom's taken money out of petty cash and, said, go and get some lunch, it's fine. She's paid for trips for some of the children where she knows that they wouldn't have had the opportunity to go and, taking that out, the petty cash and, making sure that they've had those experiences.

So that's always inspired me. I had my own experience of depression in, I'd say probably from year nine to year eleven. I didn't really know what it was I couldn't pull it into words because obviously mental health wasn't really spoken about back then. It wasn't as widely known as it is now.

And I remember [00:19:00] going to my head of year at the time and I was I just said, look, I don't know what I'm feeling. I said, I can't really put it into words, but I said, I'm just feeling very overwhelmed. I'm finding school really difficult and I just can't manage it at the moment. So my attendance wasn't that great, but I think because I was able to catch up and I was never really behind.

So I think school kind of let it slide a little bit because I'd always used to get my work done. And I remember going to her with that. And then I remember her saying. Well, Chanae, I get it, but I've got kids whose parents have died and it just felt really invalidating and I just remember just like a heart sinking feeling.

I was just like, well, what was the point then in me opening up and tell me how I feel to be told that it was just very invalidating. It was very minimizing. And that's something that's really. Stuck with me really not want to make other people feel that way. And so [00:20:00] made it my mission to help other people.

And I'm thinking like, if another child was in my position, that I'd want to be able to support them and, not invalidate their experiences and really listen. So I think that pushed me towards psychology. And then it's always been that I wanted to work with kids. I think, yeah, there's a lot of hope.

I find working with kids that, okay. If I can get you where you need to be, then, you're on your way. 

Philippa: And do you think mental health support has changed since that time? It's not that long ago. You're not really that old, are you, Chanae, compared to me, but I suppose it's 10 years or so. Do you think that we've started to talk about it more?

Do you think that there is more access, that access is fair across, community diversity, gender areas. 

Chanae: I definitely think it's spoken about a [00:21:00] lot more now. Like I didn't even know what depression was. I think when the pin dropped was probably in university when I was studying psychology and I looked at all the symptoms like, Oh, okay.

So that's what I was experiencing then. And then like the penny dropped. Is it fair? No. Is it accessible? Not always. I think you have to try very hard to get through the door. And I think also if you have family that advocates for you, that is able to advocate for you, it makes it easier.

But when you don't have that, it makes it a lot harder, I think, for people. And I know in the black community, there's still a lot of stigma it's very much kept within the family and, trying to deal with it as a family. So, I think it's raising that awareness as well that there is help out there, but again, it is, there is barriers sometimes and, I think when it's so hard, people give up trying 

Philippa: [00:22:00] So what do you think the barriers are, that prevent people, first of all, acknowledging it outwardly and having the conversation that you had, which was really brave at such a young age to say, this is what I'm feeling because lots of people wouldn't do that, would they?

Lots of young people wouldn't do that. But even as adults, there can be a barrier of saying that out loud. What do you think that, that is? And maybe in the black community as well, do you think that's, there's more barriers there sometimes? 

Chanae: I think maybe a lot of time people's issues are dismissed doing my thesis research and, speaking to black men about their access to services. A lot of them said that their concerns weren't taken seriously. There's still a lot of sometimes institutional racism in the system. We see it in, perinatal, mental health as well, black women's pain not being taken seriously or it's minimized and, black men being seen as [00:23:00] dangerous or more likely to be labeled with, psychosis or schizophrenia.

So I think, there's those assumptions and biases within the system as well. 

Philippa: And that must create, that, that must create a fear, mustn't it? Do you know what I mean? That if you think that somebody is gonna either minimise or maximise, that's what it sounds like, is either minimise it of saying, oh, you're paying isn't or your symptoms aren't, or they maximize it and say actually, oh yes, this must be horrendous because there's not that middle ground and that must be quite worrying for anybody to, and yeah, it's frightening really that you experience something and you can't go and talk about it.

Yeah, 

Chanae: and you just, you don't know what you're going to get. Is it going to be, like you said, minimize or maximize that can make people really, really anxious really about trying to access services and [00:24:00] being in the system. And I think there's a lack of trust as well in the system.

And, a lack of psychological safety as well that you're going to be held that you're going to be taken seriously, you know that you are going to be supported 

Philippa: And I guess, just linking it back to where we started in some of this conversation, if there aren't the psychologists or the, the support network that looks like you out there, then I wonder if when you're at your most vulnerable, that also gives a barrier to it, the other person might be as equally skilled and as equally, supportive.

I wonder if you're at your most vulnerable, you need that psychological safety, that trust that this person is more likely. I feel to understand or to get me, even if that's not true. I wonder if that's what it feels like. I suppose it's like being a woman and seeing a male [00:25:00] doctor, sometimes you just don't want a conversation with a male doctor.

They may be as equally skilled, maybe more. There are some things I'm not going to have that conversation with a male doctor about. And I wonder if that's the same. Also that there's not this representation in the services that people are accessing. 

Chanae: Yeah. And I agree. And I think, that plays a role as well. I have my own therapy. When I went to the black woman, because I felt like I could relate more to a black woman, they could relate more to me. And then there's certain things that, they will just get, and there's something really comforting in that. And I wonder how many people would like that as well to have, that similar experience with a clinician of a similar background.

And, if they can't get that, I think, it might then dissuade people and they might not want to then access those services. Because I might not feel, truly understood. [00:26:00] 

Philippa: So part of what your drive is and some of what you're doing is to support people to become clinical psychologists, to get into that, into this profession to support the, everybody really, because everybody's going to benefit from it, aren't they?

But I guess having that role. So how do you do that? Where are you linked? What do you do? How do you? mentor people? What's that like? 

Chanae: Do you mean like the platforms that I use or? 

Philippa: Yeah. So you, as your role as a mentor, so do you meet with them weekly? Do you give talks to their, talks? What, how do you do that?

What do you do? 

Chanae: Yeah. So I meet with them as often as I need really. So it might be through phone call, video call. So probably like weekly. And sometimes it's just as a motivator, just telling them that they can do it because I've had people that's come to me and they're just so demotivated and nobody looks like me, like I feel like this isn't for me. I've had [00:27:00] to, say no, you can do this. You can do it. There are people out there who look like us who are, working just as hard. And. You will get there and it's just talking through, what's the motivating them, how I can support with that.

And then thinking about, okay, what can we do, support them with their application form. If they're on the doctorate journey, thinking about, okay, let's look at what your transferable skills are, seeing if they're really, selling themselves in their personal statement, really getting to know them. What's their experiences, what's their background. And, linking that back to, okay, let's speak about this in the application form. Let's think about how you can come across in interview. Thinking about the different avenues into psychology as well, reflecting on their journey, because not everybody has the same journey, people may have not had that traditional journey in education knowing people who again, experienced depression, experienced [00:28:00] mental health difficulties family ruptures where they might have had to move, it's disrupted their education and thinking about how they can use those experiences, to make them, more individual, and I, it is that inclusivity, isn't it? We want people with lived experience we want people who've actually live life and experience things and that's not a weakness and that's a strength and it's helping them to see that we've all got our own stories, we've all got our own journeys and that, it's making the best of what you've got.

Philippa: So that's one part of what you do is mentoring people. Then another part is you've got your own practice. And so you do a wide range of therapy. So one of them I talked about at the beginning is EMDR. So lots of people won't know what EMDR is. Will you tell us just a little bit about that?

And do you use play? Cause this is a bit about play. So do you use play in EMDR or not? 

Chanae: Not as much play in EMDR. Probably I'd use it more with [00:29:00] children. So like getting them to draw pictures of. the memories that they want to process. So going back to what EMDR is. So it's a therapy model used to help, people process traumatic memories or experiences.

So what it does is help you to move the memory from one part of the brain to another part of the brain where it's easier for you to tolerate. So it's taking the sting out of that memory and it's then putting you in a better place where you can manage that memory. You can hold it in mind. You can not feel as much emotional distress anymore. You can be able to even talk about that memory, even if it's something that you've struggled to talk about in the past. And the good thing about EMDR is that as a therapist, I don't need to know a lot of details about that memory. I work a lot with, people who've experienced sexual abuse, physical abuse.

And those are really difficult things to talk about. So as a therapist, [00:30:00] I don't need to know those details. So what I get the person to do is hold that memory in mind. And then we'll do something called bilateral stimulation. So what that is either tapping. So it's like pressing your arms over your chest and tapping one shoulder and then the other.

Or it's through eye movements. So basically using a light source or my finger, the old school way is I then move either my finger from left to right or the light source from left to right. And it's getting your eyes to follow that as well. So through that movement. They say that it helps you to then process that memory.

Philippa: That seems quite simplistic though, Chanae. So, how on earth does that work? Just looking left to right and thinking about something that I don't, that, that makes me feel muddly or is quite traumatic and then all of a sudden that feeling's gonna go. That feels quite simplistic.

I'm thinking that our listeners are gonna be thinking. [00:31:00] 

Chanae: It feels really simplistic, and even EMTR therapists say that we don't know how it works, but it just does. And, again, it's the brain doing all the processing, and it's the brain doing what it needs to do, and it's activating, something in the brain.

That is helping you to process that memory through that bilateral stimulation. 

Philippa: It the memory? It's the emotion that's connected to the memory. Is that what's going on? So you might, so let's do something that's not too traumatic, but if you've had a car crash. And, every time you go to that junction, overwhelmed with anxiety or you can't get there.

It's not, it's, the memory is of the car crash, but it's the emotion that I'm feeling that becomes debilitating or overwhelming. And is the EMDI helps the memory to stay without the emotion being so overwhelming? Is that right? 

Chanae: Yeah. So it's then moving that, [00:32:00] that memory to a different part of the brain that is easier for you to tolerate.

So we, it could be that you have a strong emotional response to it, or it could be that you have a strong physiological response to it. So it could be that every time You reach that junction, your chest is tightening, your body's tensing up, and you don't really know what to do with that. And it can help with things like that, where you can't put it into words sometimes really, it's just a feeling, it's just something that's there.

And it can help with things like that, or it can help with thoughts that go with that, you could be approaching that junction thinking, okay, it's gonna happen again, I'm gonna die. Somebody's going to crash into me and really catastrophizing and it can support with those thoughts as well. We can also use it to, anticipate something in the future as well that you might be worried about.

So say you've been in a car accident and then you have to do a journey, then a two hour journey, say to London, and you're afraid of getting in the car [00:33:00] because that crash might happen again. Something bad might happen and it can also help with that as well by. Helping with the distress that comes with thinking about that.

Philippa: Okay. So the memory doesn't disappear. So we've still got the memory. We still know we were in the car crash, but what happens is through the EMDR process, we move it almost like from being this thundercloud that's creating all this stuff into another part that is okay, so this happened, but I survived and these are my strategies and I'm okay now.

So it's just shifting it. That's a really lovely way of explaining it. Okay. Thank you. Does this take long? Do you have to do this for years? Or what is the process of this? 

Chanae: It works quite quickly. So it depends how quickly you process really. So I, process some difficult memories for people in seven to eight sessions.

So [00:34:00] those sessions can be an hour long or an hour and a half long and, usually weekly. And yeah, depending on how quick you process it can work very quickly. Indeed. I've had one session where I have what we call clear the memory where they're then at the end okay, I can think about it now.

I can tolerate it. Yeah, I'm okay. I feel okay about it. The emotions aren't as strong. There's still, emotions are still there, but they're not affecting him in the same way. 

Philippa: Okay, and is this an in person, therapy, an online therapy? Where do you deliver it?

You 

Chanae: can do both, so you can do in person, in person I would usually use the light bar and what I call theratappers, which are these, buzzers. So they buzz, so I get them to hold them and then they buzz in one hand and then buzz in the other hand and I can change the intensity, the speed. So that's what I would do in person or sometimes get them to tap themselves as well, do what we call a [00:35:00] butterfly hug, or I can then tap their hands as well.

So if I'm with an adult or a little person, maybe I would do more tapping of the feet, maybe or tapping of the hands. Online, I Again, I found a way to mimic what I would do with the light bar. So there's a website that I use where it just comes up on their screen and then they follow the, a dot, a coloured dot across the screen that gets them to do the eye movements from left to right.

Or again, I might get them to do tapping on themselves as well whilst holding that memory in mind. So they, both work really well online, 

Philippa: sometimes not having to talk about all those experiences because traditional therapy really is what people think about is talk therapy, isn't it?

That you go and you lie on a couch and you spill all your history and somebody gives you lots of empathy and all those sorts of things. This is. An alternative to that, isn't it? For some [00:36:00] people, it's not going to be for everybody. 

Chanae: Yeah, 

Philippa: it's not one. 

Chanae: Yeah, it's not for everybody, but I've found a lot of people who struggle to talk about.

Some of those more traumatic things, it works really well and it's probably one of my main models now that I use quite often. 

Philippa: When I read out your bio at the beginning, I talked about attachment and your interest in attachment and trauma. So what do you do with that?

Do you, obviously there's EMDR, do you do other therapies or interventions? 

Chanae: Yeah, so I'd say DDP and, always seeing things from an attachment perspective and what I mean by attachment perspective is I'm really looking at what things were like for you as a child. And what was your childhood like?

What were your parents like? How were you parented as a child? And then figuring out what their attachment style might have been in a child and what their attachment style is now as an adult and looking at how that's transpired as well. 

Philippa: [00:37:00] So does it, when you're grown and you're an adult, does it really still matter what happened when you were a kid?

Surely you should have got over it by now, Chanae. 

Chanae: No, it does definitely still matter. I think it's getting people to see that as well. And, and then naming that for them. And that's really, really validating. I've worked with people and I've asked them to, talk me through their childhood and actually their parents have been emotionally unavailable and sometimes even emotionally abusive.

And they haven't realized that is what that was, in terms of their behaviors. And then how that then influences how they relate to other people, how they are in relationships, how they are in their friendships, even professional lives, because usually you'll find that sometimes when parents have been emotionally unavailable, some people, really then want to please others and then neglect their own needs through wanting to please [00:38:00] others and that's because they never had that as a child.

They never had that praise. They never had that love. Didn't have somebody that sat with them and talked to them about their feelings., their feelings were just ignored or their needs were never met. And then that plays out in, those adult relationships in terms of, either doing things to get their needs met or they're not doing things that then don't get their needs met. That people pleasing, that doing things for everybody else, but then not themselves, avoiding certain relationships, avoiding dating, avoiding the hard tasks that work because you don't feel that you're good enough, you don't feel like you can achieve, you've got low self esteem and all these things, come into play and actually a lot can stem from childhood.

Philippa: And if you're people pleasing all the time and doing things that meet other people's needs and not your own, because like you say, maybe when you were little, your parents were poorly, or Maybe some [00:39:00] addiction, had depression. So as a child, you learn that actually, if I give daddy a can of beer, if I put a blanket over mom, they speak to me, they smile at me, they give me a chip, they give me, so you learn that.

toddler, that baby that teen, that actually by doing this for somebody else, I get a very basic need met. It's not even a, a want, is it? It's like a basic need for connection or food. So then as an adult, you're repeating that pattern. Is that what you're saying? But I'm guessing that has an impact on your mental health because You're not really meeting all your needs, are you?

Chanae: Yeah, and this is when you see, low self esteem, you see anxiety, you see a lot of, maladaptive, safety behaviours that you engage in. So, to then self soothe because you're trying to get your needs met and soothe. Well then you're doing it in [00:40:00] a negative way, so that could be when the overeating comes into play, drinking too much, just not looking after yourself, avoiding close friendships that put more of a demand on you and, that make you feel uncomfortable.

And there's a lot of things that then, play out that people don't realize that they're doing. 

Philippa: So how do you support somebody when they come to you and say, Chanae, I'm really unhappy at work. I know that I'm drinking when I come in from work because I'm you know, I'm stressed about work.

So I'm drinking and then I'm tired when I'm going to work. So actually maybe somebody's thinking it's the work that, or the work environment that, that is the problem. And that's making these things happen. I can't find another job or this job pays me really well. But maybe you're thinking, well, Is there a little bit more to this than that?

How, what, what do you do as a therapist? What's your how? 

Chanae: I'll go [00:41:00] through, okay, let's talk me through what's happening now. So then I'll spend, a session on that and then they might talk me through, okay, what kind of behaviors are you doing? How are you managing that? So then I'll look at, okay, what things are they doing to manage some of these, presenting issues.

And, once I've built up a bit of trust, then I'll take it right back. I'll say, okay, talk me through. What's your earliest memories? What are your parents like? 

Philippa: I bet people think that's a bit weird though, don't they? When they've come, like, I'm really struggling at work and I know I'm drinking too much and you're saying, tell me about when you were two?

I bet they're like, really Chanae, what's this? Yeah, I do get some like 

Chanae: confused face sometimes, like really? I'm like, just, I said, just work with me. Just work with me here. And then, I get them to talk me through. I might even ask actually first what's their relationship like with their parents now?

And then take it back to childhood. Okay, what do you remember? How were you [00:42:00] parented? What were your parents like with you? And usually I will find something there in the childhood. And I'm like, okay. And then I'll make that connection for them then and then I'll be like, Oh, okay. So Chanae, do you think it's from this?

I'm like, yeah, I think it's from that. And then the penny drops then. And then what I might do is be like, okay, maybe we can do some EMDR to process that bit of your childhood to process, some of those memories that's actually linked to how you're feeling now and what you're doing now.

And then I'll tap into some EMDR to do that and then I'll see if some of the presenting behaviors, minimize a bit. So what I'll find is some of those things that they had issues with drop off. They resolve themselves from doing the EMDR and then we'll work with what's left and we'll do strategies.

We'll do behavioral experiments, start to challenge them because they're in the better space to be [00:43:00] challenged and do that more, challenging work, once we've done the processing, 

Philippa: what all you can do. Okay. So you do the processing. So tell me what's a behavioral challenge? What does that mean? Is that a, a more of a cognitive approach? Is that what you say? 

Chanae: Yeah, sometimes I'll bring that in. So yeah, cognitive approach. And it might be that if somebody has quite low self-esteem. Struggles to speak to people, I might challenge them. Okay, go to work and, say hello to this person, do something with that person.

Or if I find that they avoid conflict and they're having issues in their friendships or that a friend has done something that's bothered them, it's, getting them to okay, maybe you can express to that person how you feel, which is, might be something that they've never done before and just see, okay, just tell me how that goes.

And usually it would have gone really well. It's something that they haven't used, they're not [00:44:00] used to doing, and they've been scared of doing out of fear maybe of losing that relationship. But actually, I said you know friendships are like relationships, and it's about communication, and it's about also getting your needs met as well, and you know that's important, and to ensure that they're still getting their needs met as well.

Philippa: And they, they can do that because, I'm sorry, I'm just thinking this through, so they didn't, say to their friend, Luke, you're taking the mick by every weekend asking me to look after your kids or your dog while you're going out, I actually have a life for myself. Yeah, and they don't want to do that, but they don't want to upset their friend.

So without processing the trauma, every time they think about having that conversation with that. Actually what's happening is they're getting the feelings that came up when this past event in their [00:45:00] childhood was happening. So that prevents them from saying no or not all the time.

But once you've helped them to, process that trauma and those feelings aren't coming up. Yes. They've got the confidence then, it's still going to be, feel odd and feel difficult because they haven't done it, but they're not going to get those childhood trauma feelings. Yeah. They're just going to get the adult anxiety feelings that we all feel at some level when there's a conflict, but those are more manageable than being back to that child.

Chanae: Yeah, that's a beautiful way of putting it again, Philippa. So it might be that in their childhood, they had a parent that really shut down and minimized their feelings. They didn't handle conflict. It was stop crying, go to your room. And then the next day was a new day and nothing was ever resolved.

So then that, child got used to not communicating any issues that they had because [00:46:00] they knew that it would be shut down. And then those are the behaviors that get carried on into adulthood. And then that's when it feels really uncomfortable because it's taking them back to that place. where they felt like that in childhood. So once that's been processed, it makes the other part a lot easier. 

Philippa: I think we use a term now called gaslighting. Don't think that's a bit like gaslighting. And I'm guessing we can then inadvertently pass that on through our own parenting. So it might have happened to you and then you are uncomfortable with feelings and therefore you then are not only uncomfortable with your own feelings, But you're also uncomfortable with your babies, your toddlers, your children, your teens feelings, and that can go through generations.

Chanae: Yeah, and that's when we get that, intergenerational trauma, isn't it, Philippa? Because it's that trauma that we've gone through then, and then because of the way we've been parented and our experiences, we unconsciously then pass those on, and then, then [00:47:00] those children go on to have children and their parenting in a similar style that they've learned.

That is how some of that gets passed on through those generations, and even we hold trauma in our bodies, we can change our genes, our physiology, our brain, and even that gets passed on depending on the types of traumas that we've gone through ourselves as well. That is how that happens.

And it's okay, we need somewhere where it stops. We need somewhere where we can put some breaks in and be okay, how can we manage this? 

Philippa: And that's the work that you're doing, is trying to help families, individuals, and communities really, by the sounds of it, to put that break in there and say, actually, we don't need to keep going down this path.

 And you really, as a person, don't need to keep experiencing these things that are really not healthy for you. And it sounds like what you want to do is help. and support individuals and people to, to live their best [00:48:00] life, in a way that is guilt free and supporting their mental and emotional health.

Chanae: That really does sum up the work that I do and why it's important to me because again, there's a lot of trauma in the black community, that even stems back from, racism and, even slavery, and it's thinking about, okay, where can we put in the brakes?

Where can we say, okay, we're going to change the narrative. We're going to change this. We're gonna, we're gonna do things differently. 

Philippa: Okay, so my last question is it possible? 

Chanae: It is possible. It's possible with hard work, I think self awareness. And through having those open conversations, because again, if we're not being open, we don't know what's going on.

And it's creating that trust where we can have those more open spaces to have these conversations. 

Philippa: Oh, that's wonderful, Chanae. [00:49:00] So, I'll put a link to your website in the bottom of this podcast. So if anybody wants to get in contact with you. Is that the best way of them contacting you through your website?

Chanae: Yeah, my website or I've got an instagram page. I need to update it. But yeah, I've got an instagram page 

Philippa: okay, so I what i'll do is i'll also put your instagram page and when the podcast goes on to instagram i'll tag you in it So people will be able to follow you on instagram and see all the great work you're doing And also contact you if they want to through your website or through Instagram.

Chanae: Yeah, that's good. 

Philippa: So that's fantastic, Chanae. Thank you so much for your time. You've been a fabulous guest today. 

Chanae: You're welcome. It's been great talking with you. So thank you for having me.