Ep30 Play and Child against parent aggression; an interview with Matt.

In this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy, host Philippa welcomes Matt, a senior practitioner at CAPA First Response. Matt shares his expertise on child-to-parent aggression, detailing different forms of violence and aggression, and the importance of addressing these behaviours early. Matt emphasises the need for understanding and strengthening the parent-child relationship through effective communication and play. He also discusses CAPA's unique online support services and his background in community therapy and pastoral care. This episode provides valuable insights and hope for families dealing with challenging behaviours.

Website: https://capafirstresponse.org/

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Transcript

Philippa: 0:00

Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me Philippa. And this week my guest is Matt. And Matt is the senior practitioner for Capa First Response. He supports families directly and supervises team of practitioners. He has been with Capa for two years and in that time has helped introduce their group work and drop in services, as well as launching the CAPA first response podcast. He has also worked with families and young people for over a decade in a wide range of settings, including pastoral roles in school, supporting victims and perpetrators of violent crime within the NHS. And as a solution focus practitioner supporting families experiencing harmful and aggressive behavior from children towards their parents. Matt is an accredited solution focus practitioner, as well as a Travis stock and Portman Foundation trained community therapy facilitator. He is dedicated to empowering families and individuals to find solutions that work for them and enable them to feel at their best more of the time. So welcome Matt to pondering and play, and we are really grateful that you've given up your time to be here.

Matt: 1:21

Thanks for having me, Philippa. It's good to be here. Thank you very much. Yes,

Philippa: 1:25

no problem. So I've used an abbreviation, capa. Yeah, but it stands for child. Against parent aggression can you just tell us just a little bit more about that, Matt?

Matt: 1:38

Yeah. It's a little bit, this is a bit of a wobbly area because the definition of this behavior is still a little bit uncertain, but essentially, so you may have heard of it as CAPA or CPA child to parent abuse capa. Child against parent violence and aggression. There's lots of different acronyms, lots of different names. Essentially it is describing the behaviors of a child using violence and aggression towards a parent or a caregiver. Whether that be violent violence in terms of. Physical violence. It could be verbal aggression. It can be financial it's, it can be sexual violence as well. Essentially it's behaviors that are harmful from a child to the parent. This is not, we're not talking about a child having a tantrum and every now and then, behavior that's really difficult to manage. This is regular and this is a pattern of behavior that, that is really harmful.

Philippa: 2:39

So it's more than typically developing child behavior.'cause all children, or not all, but a lot of children will hit out at their parents at all stages, whether they're toddlers, even in that mid age where they've got some frustration, they might slap a parent's hand away or even give them a little punch or something like that. But then there's, it's a behavior that's not repeated. It might happen once or twice in that parental child relationship. This is something that's more sustained and on a much more regular basis.

Matt: 3:12

Yeah. And it's also about the severity of the behaviors and the responses what we always talk about is, are you scared of your child's response? Because it may be a child pushes the hand away and you're there. Whoa. Okay. Where did that come from? And there's a kind of, hopefully there's a inquisitiveness and an interest. Wow. Okay. Something's going on here for you right now. If it's more of a one-off incident. There's gonna be a very different response to, if this is a something that keeps on happening and you become afraid of what may happen if you say the wrong thing or if you put a boundary in place that your child doesn't like it's about that feeling of walking on eggshells and being afraid of your child, essentially.

Philippa: 3:51

That's very difficult that eggshell walking in when you wake up in the morning and you don't know what's gonna happen in your house, in your relationships. And have you always worked in with families in this way or is this something that you've built expertise up, to end up where you are now?

Matt: 4:08

No, I haven't always worked. Exactly in this field, but it's something that I've been interested in and come across for almost 15 years in my work with children, young people and their families. And I've always been really interested in that parent child relationship and that dynamic and thinking when observing this. So I started off working in schools. Initially it was a really a stop gap thing. I got a job as a TA in a school. And then from there I very quickly was like, oh, Matt, you can do these interventions. It was pastoral care. Suddenly everything was okay. We didn't have learning mentors in the school at the time I basically ended up. Taking on a lot of that work.

Philippa: 4:52

So when you say pastoral care what's that?

Matt: 4:55

So thinking about our social, emotional, mental health support that we'd be offering to children. Children who were struggling to access. Education because they weren't able to behave in the way that teachers needed them to see them behave in a classroom to, to be able to stay in the class. So working with those children that there may be the possibility of them not being able to stay in mainstream schools. So maybe being moved to pupil referral units or more specialist schools. So it was working with those children on what was actually going on for them on an emotional level thinking about their behavior and their responses. And then I became in that school that I worked at initially community cohesion officer, so working with parents in enhancing engagement with parents in the school. And then, yeah, I think every school I worked at the heads were always right. You need to train to become a teacher mat. And I almost buckled and I almost did it. And I enrolled on a teacher training course. And immediately I was like, I don't wanna do this because I see the importance of making sure children are happy first rather than their academic achievement.'cause happy children will fulfill their potential. They want to do well, kids who are feeling okay and supported and feel like they, their needs being met in that environment are gonna do well. So yeah, I backed outta that and took a different path moved away from education and followed my passion in terms of thinking about those relationships and supporting people in terms of their mental health.

Philippa: 6:21

When I read out your brief, I read out about the Travis Stock com Portman Foundation trained Community Therapy facilitator. I've never heard of that. That, and I have been around for quite a few years and that is something, and so can you tell me.

Matt: 6:39

Yeah,

Philippa: 6:39

primarily.

Matt: 6:39

Tavistock and Portman Foundation is a found NHS Foundation in London. And they ran a project called The Thinking Space Project in Haringey in London, which is where I was living at the time. And it was launched by Dr. Frank Low, initially it was launched in response to the riots that happened in London. And specifically around the Tottenham area as well. And I think it was 20, 20 11 or 2012, I think. Wow. So quite

Philippa: 7:05

a way back.

Matt: 7:06

Yeah. And it was thinking about a way to help the community recover from what they'd experienced. And thinking of that the community there, they, there's. There was a high chance that those, the people in that community would not engage in traditional therapy. They would not for a start, probably have the resources but also culturally there's a high chance that's not something that they would choose to engage in. There was a lot of evidence around community therapy that was launched in in Brazil. And then there was a model that was built, and I can't remember the initial study and the person who set it up over there. But this was something that was picked up by Dr. Frank Low. And he was really interested in this especially working with black communities in in Haringey and in Tottenham. An ethnic, minority background communities there and it was proven to be something that was much more effective and that, that actually offered something that these communities could engage with. So as part of one of my roles when I was working I was working in a hospital in Soham. North Middlesex Hospital which had a program running which supported victims and perpetrators of violent crime. It's a very high it's, it was an interrupting violence initiative essentially because it has one of the highest, that area in London. And that hospital in particular has one of the highest. Rates of violent crime or patients coming in as a result of violent crime in the whole country. Yeah. So I was working with a lot of people who were affiliated with gangs or sometimes people were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the amount of violent crime there meant that. It was gang related or it was gang adjacent, if you get what I mean. Yeah. And through that work thinking space basically reached out to people in the community to train to be facilitators for these thinking spaces. So it's people who were working in the community had an understanding of the issues that the community were facing, people that could, facilitate these groups? Again, thinking about the people that were coming and I'm a white middle class man, so I'm not pretending that i'm from the streets and I grew up, in Hackney in the city of London. I've grown up around these issues. I've worked around these issues, most of my professional life. So I have an understanding of it. Anyway, so through all my work there, I asked if I'd like to train and that was trained by, Dr. Frank Low himself who launched the scheme. And from there joined thinking space Group in Haring Gay. And from there trained as a co-facilitator and then facilitated groups myself. I no longer live in Hering Gay now. So I'm no longer running those groups. But a lot of the skills that I learned there and that I developed there have been really useful for my work moving forward as well.

Philippa: 10:00

So did those groups take place in the community? In the community Yeah. The churches, the community hall. Exactly.

Matt: 10:06

Yeah. So it was run initially in a church hall in Tottenham. But actually this was around the time of lockdown as well. So it started off as a physical community. We then had to take it online which brought its own difficulties, but then it was at a time that was really needed as well. A lot of people who wouldn't be able to engage in who needed this? But a lot of other services and places where they would've otherwise interacted were taken away. They weren't able to meet people in those physical spaces. So I think it became really important space for people online as well. But yeah, and then back to, physical spaces afterwards. But I actually think now that the project has finished sadly which is a real shame because the benefit. And the need for it was really high and the engagement was really high.

Philippa: 10:52

That's what I was gonna ask. Did people engage in it because you Yeah. You can imagine that, Julie and I have recently done a. An episode on deprivation in communities that are disadvantaged. I live in the North, Julie lives actually not far from Hackney in London and all right. And we can see in, in some of our communities the. They are very disadvantaged by poverty. Really? Yeah. And by lack of resources and by lack of spaces and things like that. So anything I imagine that can create a sense of community and communities that are feeling. Fractured from maybe other parts of their own community and especially the country. Yeah. Can be helpful. So did you get engagement then?

Matt: 11:37

Absolutely. Yeah. No, and it was really positive. And I think it, the community aspect is so important. People just coming together, being in the same space. But equally the focus being this is a therapeutic. Community. So that is even more special because it's one thing to come together and we talk about this and maybe things, conversations will happen and there will be a therapeutic element to it and people feel seen and understood and they build relationships that are really enriching for their lives. But this was designed to create that community and for that community to be therapeutic and to be facilitated, but actually the therapy is happening between. Group members as well. And I think that was something that was so important because if you'd, if you come in as the expert and try and lead in a way that will turn people off or reject it, that unless you are properly part of our community. Then you don't necessarily understand. So we are gonna facilitate this space for you to understand and for you to move through it and for you to begin to process what's happened, what is going on, what are the challenges you're facing and explore that together in a really safe space, safe community where it's really held and it's, the focus though is on that therapeutic aspect.

Philippa: 13:00

And did that, do you think, help to reduce some of the violence around those communities? Some of those tensions that maybe have been in there within the communities? Yeah. Or did it help? Sorry, go on, Philippe. I was gonna say, or did it help them? Kind of create a narrative around what was happening for them. So in, in itself that shared experience, can it become therapeutic that we are having the shared experience that, that I'm not alone within this. Yeah. Even if you can't change what's going on, there's the, yeah, there's the share.

Matt: 13:37

That's something that we talk about all the time. There are things that you can't change. There are things that are just. Bad, that feel bad for you, that are a pain. It's a painful experience. It's difficult, but like you say, sharing in that difficulty and actually bringing it to light and, am I right to it? I feel scared here. What, what's going on? I, conflicting feelings about. People who maybe have had young people in their lives who had engaged in these riots what's your thought about that? This is my grandson, this is my son and I love them, but I can't condone what happened. Actually, can we hold these conflicting ideas? Can we hold these really difficult, challenging feelings? And how does that how do I relate to my, the rest of my community? Do you feel the same way? I do. Alright. How have you got through it? What's been useful for me? What's, will that work for me? I'm not sure we can explore it together though. What difference would it make if, for instance, so we've got someone over here who's saying I want to forgive my grandson, but I can't, can you want to, what? Why do you wanna do that? What difference would it make if you could, okay, let's explore that and let's, and then you can explore that as a group. And I don't know it. We'd have to look into the research to look at the efficacy of it and see, that the impact it made. But when I did my training, I was obviously working in the a and e department north Middlesex Hospital. There was a lot of other, there was youth workers who were working with a lot of young people who were affiliated with gangs. And, the idea being that we were going to start. Separate different thinking spaces within with our different cohorts. Again, COVID really came at the wrong time because as we were finishing our training and it was hard to actually be setting up these groups in physical spaces that were probably gonna make it easier for some people to engage. But it was a really interesting, really powerful, project, and I feel privileged to have been a part of it. And also to have learn from, Frank Low, who was just a really inspirational man. And his dedication to his work and his community was really inspiring to be honest.

Philippa: 15:44

I am definitely gonna go and Google this and do some reading about it. Once we've finished this conversation, Matt, but I suppose when you were talking about the skills that you were using and the conversations you were having in that community it made me think about families, where children are being violent with within an aggression towards parents because parents can have those feelings too, can't they, about their child. When you are in that moment of being scared about your child, not knowing what's gonna happen or having been hurt by your child, you can have those conflicting emotions, this is not okay. Put, you are my kid and you are my world. And how do you balance those? I'm guessing you're working with quite a lot with that now in the role that you are in.

Matt: 16:34

Yeah, absolutely. So my work now is directly with family. So I'm still a practitioner working, doing, we do drop-ins, which are weekly drop-ins that anyone can join. So people can just come in, drop in, ask questions, be in a space with other parents who are experiencing similar behaviors.

Philippa: 16:53

I should have said before that you are online, aren't you? So when you are saying anybody, it literally means anybody. Anyone. It's not in a community. Like it's not, there's no physical space for this. Exactly. It's so yeah, just tell us about where you are and how it's accessed and then tell us about it really.

Matt: 17:14

Yeah. So Capa first response was set up by our CEO founder Jane Griffiths, In response to the fact that it is such a postcode lottery in terms of what support might be available in your geographical location if you are experiencing child-parent violence and aggression. So in some areas there is great support available in other areas, there is nothing for a hundred, 200 miles. And then what do you do? This is a very tricky, thing to deal with, essentially. There's a lot of stigma, a lot of shame around this. Parents are afraid to even ask for help. And then what happens if you ask for help and people go, oh, I don't really know what to say to you. There's nothing we can do to, that, that's even more painful. So Jane set up Capa first response as a remote organization. So all our support is online, so it doesn't matter where you are in the country, we've supported people. In Australia in America, I think in different places in Europe. Our funding is for the UK though. So we are funded to support anyone anywhere in the uk. So essentially all you need to do is go to a website click on a button that says Get in contact. And we can take it from there. We do operate a contribution based service. So if you feel that you would like to contribute, then we welcome that. But you don't have to, and we will support anyone regardless because. This is an issue that we know people suffer within in silence. And it has, the ripple effects of this are so far reaching and it's just so important that people feel that they can get support as early as possible as well. We don't want people to wait until this is four, five years down the line, and we don't want people to say yeah, it was, it's always been difficult, but when they were 5, 6, 7. I could manage it, but now they're 13, 14, 15. This is now really scary. This is I can't handle this. We would much prefer people soon as they start thinking something doesn't feel quite right here, get in contact with us. We can support you. We can help you think about it and give you some ideas for things that may be useful and basically start building that relationship with your child start doing things that are helpful to reconnect. Because in most instances, 99 times outta a hundred, there is an issue in terms of the relationship, in terms of the communication. And that bond, there's something that is insecure, that there's something that's got a little bit wobbly. And our, all of our work is focused on strengthening that child, parent relationship and strengthening the communication both ways. So a child is more able to communicate what's going on for them. So a parent is more able to communicate that they are paying attention to that child. So that child's hearing and witnessing you get this, you can see what's going on for me. That's where we focus, that's where our work always starts.

Philippa: 20:12

Because I suppose I work with families where there's violence within it. And I think often parents feel guilt. A huge amount of guilt. Especially'cause lots of families I work with are adoptive families. So they've had been through this journey to. To prove, I'm saying that inverted comment. Yeah. That they're gonna be great parents so that they can have the family that they want, and then they have this child that they, fall in love with, want this family life with and then there's this. Aggression that goes on within it. Yeah. So often for lots of complex reasons but I think that families then find that really difficult to talk about. Yeah. And if they do, say, if, if. Extended family members see it or they'll say, oh, just do

Matt: 21:04

Oh yeah.

Philippa: 21:04

Just do stuff. Like they've been there, they've done that. And so they become isolated and stop talking about it.

Matt: 21:12

Yeah, absolutely. People, I think that's something that comes up all the time is, yeah. My brother said, oh, you just need to be stricter. My mum has said, if you just had some firmer boundaries, oh no, you come on, you just, it's. This is about what you've done. You are getting this wrong. And I think especially in those adopted families where this, depending on when that child came to not, look, we can be almost certain. There's been some trauma in that child's early life. They have lost, at the very least, they have lost their family, their birth family, families at the start. There is trauma there. That's not your fault. That will never be your fault. That is going to have an impact on their ability to connect with you and their ability to have a relationship with you. Their early experiences of being parented are in some cases more traumatic than others. But you can't do anything about that child will in all likelihood have a difficulty in connecting with you and trusting that parent figure. They may say, I don't want a parent, they don't want to be parented, because actually I've had an experience of that and I don't want to go through that again. And so it's understanding that this is, not your fault. And the behavior you are seeing is not directed necessarily towards you. It's directed towards maybe what you represent or the fear that child has about that kind of relationship and that connection. But I think that feeling of guilt and shame is always present in nearly all the families we talk to. And it's not helped by the fact that so many professionals that they talk to exacerbate that problem. They do say you should have done this, right? This is because you didn't do that, you're not putting in enough firm boundaries. You're being too weak. So then the parent tries to respond to that and goes, oh my God, I'm doing a terrible job. Let me put more boundaries in place. Let me be firm and the problem gets worse. And you didn't do it quite right then. Maybe you didn't. And then they're just, they're going in circles. And then so the parents starts doubting themselves becoming really self-critical and that doesn't help. And yeah, it's, I feel so much compassion for the parents who come to us because what they're facing is one of the most difficult things they can face as a parent. And the support when they do, pluck up the courage to ask for help, to ask for support. Sometimes it just makes it worse. And it's just heartbreaking, because in worst cases they just go I'm not doing that again. And so then they suffer in silence. And the problem either just stays as it is or it gets worse and things get to a place for family breakdown potentially. And in this situation, everyone loses the child loses, the parent loses, siblings lose. It's just yeah, a really difficult situation.

Philippa: 23:57

And I think can happen is that family's own support network starts to disappear as well. So the professional help maybe isn't what it needs to be, doesn't have the understanding, but then their own support network, so there's no respite.'cause they don't go to granny's anymore or they don't go out with aunt anymore, or they can't go to the Saturday morning club anymore because even if they don't misbehave. And again, I'm saying that in, in yeah. Yeah. In quoted commerce there, the parents know that when they come home that the wobbles are gonna be so big that the violence is gonna occur. It's not worth

Matt: 24:35

even trying to go.

Philippa: 24:36

So they end up very insular then, don't they? With this massive emotional I don't even know how to describe it, but emotionally, it must be so hard to be going through that with your child seeing your child distressed and that distress being displayed in violence.

Matt: 24:55

Absolutely. I think it's one of those things that I talk about quite a lot with parents though, and I think we might have talked about either ear before we started talking or earlier in the conversation, I can't remember. But that balance, finding that balance. I'm not even finding the balance, but on the one hand, you've got the parent is suffering themselves so much because you have a child that you love dearly using this violence and aggression against you. And often, I hear parents say, I love my child, but I do not like them. I don't want be around them and it's, so that's something really tricky to hold there. What does this mean? That I've, I know I love my child and I do want what's best for them, but. I don't like'em now because of the behavior they're using, because of what they're doing to me. But then also on the other hand saying I'm so scared for my child's future. I can see the distress they're in. I know that they're struggling so much and this is where this behavior's coming from, and you've, I. And the weight, you're just carrying weight all over the place. The weight for you as a person to protect yourself, the weight you're carrying for your child to try and protect them. Lot talk to lots of parents and they, the fear of their, of, criminalizing their child at times. We talk a lot with parents about when to call the police and how to call the police in a helpful way. And I completely think that there's times when you have to go calling the police is something. I may have to do if I cannot keep us safe in this home, if I know that actually this is gonna be dangerous for all of us, I may have to call the police. But parents fear about calling the police. I couldn't do that to my child because what if they, if they get arrested, the impact that's gonna have on their future. And then the impact that's gonna have on our relationship. That betrayal, it can feel like to call the police and,'cause it's seen as a punitive measure. A lot we talk about with parents is actually, this isn't a punitive measure. This is, you are not doing this to punish your child. You will be doing this to keep everyone safe. To make sure that actually maybe I can't keep everyone safe myself as the parent, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to say we just can't be safe at home. Then I'm still gonna do something to make sure we are safe. And that's a really powerful boundary that I think parents can set. But again, it's that conflicting idea of, I dunno what, what the best way course of action is to take it and how conflicting parents feel just adds to confusion. And parents shutting down in a way and just not being able to move forward, or not being able to make a positive choice for their family. Because of all the things they're balancing, all the things they're juggling. So part of our support is helping parents to think things through a little clearer as well. And actually what would look good for you? Let's imagine that. Things were going a little bit better for you as a family, what might that look like? And let's explore that. What could be positive for your family? What would be the next small step that we can take? And then start to move forward. And I think that ability to look at those small steps and actually reflect back.'cause I think parents are always really amazed at how quickly they can start noticing positive change through working with us. It's really incredible, like how quickly and how impactful the support can be. But a big part of that is reflecting on those small changes and the self-efficacy that builds and the agency that parent suddenly feels, I am able to make an impact Here. I can see actually there's a way out of this because hope is just so important for a parent to see. There is a different future possible here, just'cause I'm seeing this at my child is doing this at 11, it doesn't mean that I can, predict exactly what's gonna be happening at 1617. There are alternative parts shooting off all the time, which is we've gotta be aware and we've got to pay attention to the small signs that tell us a different possibility is there for us.

Philippa: 28:34

Absolutely. Julie and I would I guess from our perspective, think about how play could help in those small moments. We often talk about. The pressure that parents are under to do all this amazing parenting that you see on social media in TikTok. That actually just isn't real. No. At all. And just having, two minutes of playfulness can actually change the course of the next hour, course by blowing bubbles outta the when you're washing up or whatever it is. I don't know if play comes into to your. Suggestions or thoughts

Matt: 29:10

Absolutely. Yeah. So we talk about the parent child game quite a bit and doing that with parents. So setting aside some to boundary time to play with your child, to be present, to observe what they're doing, to let them lead bring that playfulness in. Because I think in that instance, what you're doing is you are building that connection. You are building that communication. You respond to what's going on, what the other person is doing, and there's that language building, okay, as I, when I do this, you do this. Okay, we can, but in a positive way. So yeah, absolutely. I think play is really important for the younger or the parents. With the younger children we, we talk with, that's something we talk about quite a lot. And then for older children it is just. We talk a lot about invites to spend time an invitation, not a, would you like to do this with me, yes or no? I'm not gonna do it if you don't wanna do it with me. But a kind of, oh, I'm thinking it'd be cool to, maybe we could watch this film together. I'm gonna get a pizza, or whatever it might be. But to have a connection that isn't problem focused because of very often families when they're seeing this behavior, they can find it so many of their interactions are based around this problem they're witnessing within their family. And so then that's all anyone sees, that's all anyone feels, that's all anyone knows about their connection as a family unit is this problem. That's the narrative that builds. So introducing those elements or those times of connection that are playful, that are separate from the problem that I just. This is just a nice thing and we can do that. I think it's massively important and I think, as I said earlier on, it comes back to that connection, that communication, that sort of, when you're playing that, oh, okay, I can see what you're doing there. Oh, I'm gonna respond in this way, and that it's so vitally important. All of our work is built around. Building that communication. That is, I am paying attention to what you are doing. I'm paying attention to what's going on in your world. I'm paying attention to what's important to you. And setting aside. So when we talk about that parent-child game is setting aside that time where you let that child lead to play and you say, I'm gonna observe what's going on, and I'm gonna see what's important to you. You tell me what we're gonna play. I'm not gonna correct you, I'm gonna just show you that I'm really there with you. Ah, okay. Okay so we're playing with the crayons. Cool. What would you like me to do? Oh, you need to draw a picture of a house. Okay. I'm gonna draw a picture. Not like that. I want it to be a house with, 10 windows. Okay. I'm gonna draw a house with 10 windows, and it's showing that attentiveness and showing that, proving that kind of communication is there intact in a way that is enjoyable. It's playful. It's super important.

Philippa: 31:57

And I imagine it's a different bodily experience because when you've got that aggression, frustration, anger going on. Your body is feeling one way, and we can get used to being in that way of feeling, yeah. And that fight, flight, freeze, that kind of really hypervigilant stuff. Whereas when you are playing, you can't be in fight, flight, freeze. You've got to be in your whole brain and your whole nervous system, and your whole body is experiencing something. Very different in the being. Yeah. As well as in the knowing you are experiencing being calmer. You are experiencing being connected in a different way because you are connected in that aggression point. It's a very different experience in the body

Matt: 32:41

absolutely. Yeah. And I think that can. It can be quite tricky though for parents. They spend so much time, thinking about the window of tolerance and being in that place where we are. Okay. Here. And then in that place of, hyper arousal where you spend so much time, like you're saying from that fight, flight or freeze response where you are on edge and i've got to watch what I'm saying. If I say the wrong thing, something's gonna explode. Looking for the signs from your child. Okay, here we go. Something's building here. And, but because of that, you can you do stop seeing other small signs. And there are bits of communication that are lost because of that, that need to be alert to danger. So yeah when you can introduce play and you can bring a different. Quality, to that awareness and how it feels for you in that moment. That's really important. But I think it can be really tricky for parents to get to that place where they can actually allow themselves or feel safe enough to, to get there really? To engage in that play. Because very often it may not feel safe. Yeah.

Philippa: 33:41

And the child then picks up that the adult is still in that hyper aware state. So that communicates back to the child while they must. Be something unsafe here because Yeah something's wrong here. Yeah. So I can't just relax and play. Whereas if you can both get down and play with the Play-Doh or run around the park or whatever it is you're doing in a different state, that you are both I suppose that communication to the child as saying, actually, you are now with a safe adult in a safe space. You don't need to have your kind of hyper-awareness up or your fight protection around.

Matt: 34:16

Yeah, absolutely. I think we talk a lot with parents about communication and how much we think about our communication in terms of the words we're saying. We try and communicate everything through what we're saying to our child, and we very often ignore. The bulk of our communication, which is happening through our, nonverbal cues and our tone of voice. And you might be saying, no, everything's fine, but everything really is screaming to your child. We are not fine. Things are very dangerous here. Things are very uncertain. We are on, really shaky ground and bringing an awareness to the rest of your communication that can actually say, we're okay here. This is all right. We can both allow ourselves to be with each other and we're gonna be safe. So yeah it's really important that we pay attention to all of our communication, the messages that we're giving off in terms of safety. Because for most of our, families and the children that we're working with, they do not feel safe, which is why we're seeing this response and which is why there's this. Very often, parents will talk, they need to be in control. If they don't get it their way, then they'll kick off. And it's where does that need for control come from? What's the root of that? All of our work, we're always saying, it's really important that we understand what the behavior is and what we're seeing. Name that and go this is what's going, we see going on. But why are we seeing that? Why is, why does this response exist? What purpose does it serve for your child? Why do they need to respond in this way? So yeah, I think that's always really important with all our work is going. Yeah, looking at the why, really.

Philippa: 35:50

So what, one last question just before we wrap up. What about families where children maybe are, have got neurodiversity? So things like fetal alcohol syndrome disorder, autism, A DHD are you. Still, you still offer support to those families? Absolutely.

Matt: 36:11

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's actually the majority of the families we work with the family's neurodiverse, whether that's one or more people in the family's neurodivergent. So yeah, we absolutely work with neurodiverse families. And really, again, it comes back to what was saying there, it's because a child is neurodivergent, does not mean that they're gonna be violent or aggressive. Okay. Autism or A DHD or, whatever it may be, is not going to make someone fine or aggressive, but the difficulty that comes along with that Can, that can be the problem. That can be the weight. That means they are unable to cope, but they go to that fight, flight, or freeze place. A lot of our work is, as I said, focused on that connection and that communication and that works regardless.

Philippa: 37:00

So I guess what you're saying is it's, so for somebody to say maybe who's been exposed to alcohol and neutral sometimes what we know is that when there's lots of demands on them, yeah it's really hard for them to process all those demands in one go. Yeah. And then it can. Create that feelings of frustration and oh my gosh, I dunno what I'm doing. And then from that can come the lashing out. But actually, if we can reduce how parents think about actually how do we reduce those demands? How do go on.

Matt: 37:32

Yeah. It's having that. Having compassion towards your child. Not as, say, obviously parents always have compassion, but especially if the parent is neurotypical and they have a neurodivergent child, they will never fully understand the experience of life their child has and so for them they'd be like what was the problem? There was no issue there. It was fine. Like I just told you to go and put your shoes on and it's thinking, what is the child's experience of that? Are they able to tolerate, is that too much what you've just done? It may seem fine for you and in your experiences that is not a problem, but what's the experience for the child? And I think it's stepping back and understanding your child's needs and going right. You are giving me signals that tell me that you've got a big problem with this, that this is too much for you. So am I able to communicate to you that I'm paying attention to this problem that feels unmanageable for you? You cannot tolerate what's going on and you are communicating this to me how do I show you that I've picked up on the severity of this for you? How do I make that really clear, and how do I then respond with that in mind? Do I then go, oh, come and stop making a fuss, and no, if we don't do that, then actually we're gonna be late for this. Am I gonna carry on talking? Putting more pressure on that thinking part of the brain that's already just going, oh, I can't cope. Yeah. Or am I gonna go, you are not actually coping with this at the moment. Let me respond in a more helpful way. Maybe I'm not gonna talk so much. Maybe we have to wait five minutes before we can continue with the next bit of our plan of the day of whatever that may be. But it's bringing an awareness of that charge, experience of life. The best way to help them regulate. And the brilliant thing is that as that child starts to experience their ability to regulate more, the narrative around that child changes.

Philippa: 39:18

Their

Matt: 39:19

belief in their ability to regulate, improves, their ability to regulate, improves their, the difficulty. They're not carrying the difficulty of, I'm a bad kid, this is what I do, I hurt people. And they no longer carry that, and they start to trust. Mom, dad, grandma, granddad, whoever it is. Do you know what? They know how to help me when I'm feeling angry. When I'm feeling really fizzy, they know how to help me so I can keep in control. There's that trust that builds again, that actually you can help me, not. The problem, you keep talking to me and I just can't bear and I explode. And then actually I start looking around going, no one actually understands what my experience of life is. I'm gonna actually, I retreat into myself and I'm the only one who can protect myself. And that, is a really sad and dangerous place to be.

Philippa: 40:10

I could ask you a million more questions about, but I know that you've got another appointment in a couple of minutes. So thank you so much. And maybe you'll come back in a little while and tell us a little bit more about how C'S going and how your podcast going and all those sorts of things. But I will put a link to the website on the bottom of this. Brilliant description, and people can just click on that. And there's a, there's, they all tell them easily. There's literally a button. It says, get in

Matt: 40:39

contact. You just click on that button. And we will get in contact and we can start, we can take it from there.

Philippa: 40:44

That's great. And you also do a podcast yourselves, don't you, about this. So people can also find that from your website if they want.

Matt: 40:51

The website or wherever you find your podcast. It's Capa first response podcast. So yeah, we've we are working on it all the time. It's a yeah, I think there's always a few more, seasons planned before we've even got the next one out. Jane likes to keep me on the treadmill, Philippa. Keeps me working.

Philippa: 41:09

That's good. So thank you so much for your time today and taking this doing this podcast with us. Thank you very much, Matt. Thanks.

Matt: 41:17

Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.