EP34 Play and Play Therapy in Bangladesh; An interview with Mostak Imran

In this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy, Julie from South London welcomes Mostak from Dhaka, Bangladesh. They discuss their shared qualification in play therapy and explore how their training paths intersected at Roehampton University. Mostak shares his experiences working as the only BAPT-certified play therapist in Bangladesh, delving into the cultural perceptions of therapy and the challenges faced in a country where academic pressure often replaces playtime. They also touch on the differences observed in how children from different regions engage in play therapy and the impact of technology on modern children's play. Mostak's passion for promoting play therapy in Bangladesh shines through as he reflects on his future plans and the importance of trusting the process in therapeutic work.

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Transcript

This transcript is created during editing by the software. Unfortunately we do not have the time to make corrections to the written transcript; therefore there are mistakes. 

Play and Play Therapy in Bangladesh; an interview with Mostak Imran

​[00:00:00] 

Julie: welcome to this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me, Julie in South London with a special guest today, Mostak and Mostak. You are in Dakar, in Bangladesh, I believe?

Mostak: Yes. 

Julie: And Mostak, we, you and I share something in common, although I'm in the UK and you are in Bangladesh. We share a qualification. Would you like to tell us a little bit about. How come you and I have the same qualification, how that came about and, the sort of other qualifications you have and your work in Bangladesh.

Mostak: Okay. So thank you Julie for having me. And, uh, right now, as you have mentioned earlier, that it's, uh, there's a time difference and we are in a different part of the world. You are from, uh, London and I'm from Haka Bangladesh, but. We are also having a same I mean or [00:01:00] similar experience. And that is, I mean we are connected through the world of, play therapy.

So we, you are a uh, you are a professional play therapist and I'm also a play therapist, and we have the same body that, uh, under through.

Which we are being supervised. It's called like the big of a play therapist. So we are, uh, all connected though. We have joined online and we are from different part of the world, but, uh, we like to play with children. We like to work with children and that's the common thing.

And, uh, I. I graduated in psychology from DKA University. Then I did my masters in educational psychology and also in field educational psychology. Then after a few years, I went to Roehampton University, uh, in UK to complete my, uh, master in, uh, play [00:02:00] therapy. And after that, when I return, now I'm working as a, uh, certified play therapist or international, uh, professional play therapist.

Julie: We think, well, in fact, we know that you are the only BAPT play therapist in Bangladesh. 

Mostak: Uh, yes. 

Julie: So far 

Mostak: that that's true. Yes, that's true. So it's 

Julie: a lovely thought, Mostak that you and I have trained in the same room, that same room in Ro Hampton University on the second floor. Where hundreds and hundreds of other play therapists have trained, but we have trained in the same room, and that's where I'm still training the next generations of students is in that same room.

I don't think that room has changed for about 20 years, uh, which means we've touched the same toys, we've possibly dressed up in the same costumes. We've gone into the same drawers for our paper. And being trained in that [00:03:00] same modality. So I wanted to start off today by asking putting aside our training, putting aside that for a moment, the therapy part, but thinking about you, thinking about the young you.

Little you, however far back you want to go, and this is a question we're asking all of our guests. What was play for you as a child, as a teenager? What, was the feeling towards play when you were little? 

Mostak: Okay, so play was a fun part of me. So it, yeah, it was like an, uh, escape for me from not, uh, doing a study, uh, because, in our country it was not like a rule, but I think those who have grown up in eighties or nineties.

We all have the similar [00:04:00] experience. In the afternoon, there will be no study, so either we'll go outside or we'll go on the top of the roof or that is the time for us to play and after the evening we have to come back to home. And then, uh, we have to study till eight or 9:00 PM So, uh, we were very lucky that, uh, we would play a lots of things like, uh, running cricket, uh, football.

So, I mean, as I'm saying, mostly the physical play. But, uh, I mean we during that time there is a load shedding in our country, so there is a power cut, so when there is a power cut or load shedding during that time, that was also a fun part of us because we could utilize. That. Okay, now there is load shedding or power cut.

So now I, I have some time so I can play, so I can play with [00:05:00] my cousins and I could also play with my family members. So we actually really enjoyed that time. When we were young and we were very lucky that we didn't have, uh, the, uh, distraction of mobile phone. So that's why we could utilize our time properly.

We feel bored, and then we used to create new games or new kind of play. Now, sometimes if we think about that, it seems like, oh, there is no meaning. Like we used to play Monopoly. We didn't understand the rules, but uh. We used to make the rule by us that okay, this will happen and that will happen. So that was a really wonderful time for us and I'm also very lucky that, uh, uh, I born in in nineties, so I got get the chance to play a lot during my childhood.

Julie: And you mentioned there Yeah. Making up the rules of [00:06:00] Monopoly, which is quite a complex name game for a child, but just getting the board out and the pieces out and creating your own game. I, I really resonate with that. And where were the grownups in this? 

Mostak: Y Yeah, that time I mean, I will say grown up, uh, didn't join so much, but yes, they were also there.

So it's like, uh, a secure parent. I mean, if we think about like attachment or when we discuss about child and parents, so it seems like our parents were there in front of us. They were watching that we were playing. By us. Uh, sometimes there is a fight, there is a negotiation between the playmates or something like that.

Sometimes we used to solve by, uh, us sometimes yes. If we couldn't do that, then our parents, uh, used to help us. So our parents were there. [00:07:00] Sometimes they were not involved, maybe uninvolved. But their presence was there. 

Julie: Hmm. So they were like the containment for the play? Yes. They were there. Like sometimes we talk about the circle of security.

It's almost like those big safe hands around you and your cousins and your friends for your play. They weren't in the play, but they were there if you needed them. 

Mostak: Needed. Yes. Yeah. So they were there. Yes. 

Julie: Yeah. And, and as a teenager. 

Mostak: As a teenager I think then our play has quite changed. Then we started playing cricket.

Or football. And during that time the involvement of parents was uh, gradually I mean less they were busy with their own words. And that time we used to play by [00:08:00] our ourself and if there is a problem. Or if there is any, anything that, uh, then we used to solve by us. And that time our parents was not there.

Uh, so much, they were busy with their own work. 

Julie: So they withdrew more and left you to resolve things yourself. Yes. And it's interesting 'cause then cricket football, they have generic rules and I guess it's really important then to keep to those rules. 

Mostak: True. Yeah. And 

Julie: gender, boys, girls in together or did you play separately?

Yes. I 

Mostak: mean, when, I mean, when we were child that time there is no, I mean, such thing of like, oh, she's a girl or she's a boy. We didn't have that kind of thing in our childhood. We used to play together. Uh, so there is no, uh, differences, in, in terms of, uh, [00:09:00] gender. So our sisters or our cousin sisters, so, so they also used to join with us and we used to play together and we used to do fun together.

So there is no any kind of like gender issues during that time. 

Julie: We had a chat a couple of weeks ago and you were talking about where play is in your life now as an adult, as a worker, you, you work at the university, you teach and you also see clients.

But for you must stack when you are not working. Or maybe within your, your working relationships with the other adults, does play playfulness still exist for you? 

Mostak: Yes. Uh, if I say definitely play is always, uh, there with me because otherwise I sometimes, I mean, I. Uh, due to heavy workload, I also feel like tired.

So it seems to me like [00:10:00] play, uh, becomes a part, a part as a self-care or me time for me. So maybe I'm not playing, uh, uh, as any kind of game or such kind of thing, but maybe when I'm listening to music or when I'm spending time in the. In the garden with my plants. It seems to me I'm also playing with them.

I'm also talking with them, and I'm also, uh, enjoying the time with them. Yes. As you have mentioned, the dimension or the category of play are being changed, uh, gradually as you have asked me that, uh, yes. Uh, how was it in the, in our, in my childhood and it seems to me. After, uh, as you have mentioned, so it seems to me now the pattern is change.

So it seems like when I am by myself, maybe when I'm going to office, by the bus. So that is also maybe a playful time for me when [00:11:00] I'm, uh, reflecting or when I'm listening a podcast or music or that is also me time and I'll say that is also play full time for me. 

Julie: And I, I love that image of, you sort playing with your plants and talking to your plants.

Mostak: Yes. 

Julie: I've been out in my garden today just picking things. I was growing ettes. I'm not a great gardener, but I get such pleasure out of seeing this beautiful orange flour and then that withers, and there's this. Huge ette appears and then I can just pick it and eat it and that I've never thought of that as playing, but I'm with you in that.

I do talk to my plants. I, say goodnight to them. I say good morning to them. I water them. I make sure I touch them. Whether that makes them grow better or not, I don't know. Yes, 

Mostak: yes. It seems, uh, I mean, they also become an, [00:12:00] uh, attachment or like the transitional object, uh, for us. So, uh, I, and uh, we love to spend time with them.

Julie: Hmm. And I like to think that they love to spend time with me. He, she comes, will I get some water? Will I get a bit of pruning? 

Mostak: Yes. 

Julie: And yeah, the joy that, you know, the, the huge privilege of having a bit of land, tiny, it's a tiny little garden, but that I really recognize that that's not something that everybody has access to.

But the, privilege of caring for a bit of land and, and the care I put into that, and the care you put into your piece as well is self care for myself and yourself, but also. So something bigger than us. 

Mostak: Yes. It's like the co-creation. I mean, I'm also doing it in, uh, the plants. They're also maybe growing, so it's like the co-creation of play or togetherness.

Yes. 

Julie: [00:13:00] Hmm. Yeah. I'm gonna think about that as I go into my garden to water it later on. Thank you very much for that thought. Uh, I won't be able to send you a yet, but you. The thought is there. And you mentioned earlier on something about, you know, you feel fortunate to have been born in the nineties to have been a child in the nineties because you didn't have a mobile phone.

Tell me about children play Bangladesh now. 

Mostak: Yes. Uh, yes. Now, I thinking about the scenario, that's why I say that, uh, I'm very fortunate that I was in, uh, nineties and that time we didn't have any mobile phone or any kind of distraction and that time. Our parents used to say it like this. Yes, if you go to get if you [00:14:00] can done well in all level or a level, then you will have the mobile phone.

Uh, there was an expectation, but nowadays, I mean, it seems.

When they're very young, maybe sometimes they're two years old, three years old, or sometimes their parents are saying

they're very active and smart, they can use the mobile phone, but I couldn't, uh, I can't do it properly. So they're thinking it, part of smartness, but. Nowadays children's, they are busy with the mobile phone. I just read a meme on Facebook few days ago.

So I will say, uh, it's also quite same for, uh, uh, our country. So the mother found the boy was playing a tab in the house, in the room. So the mother said, uh, go outside and play. And after half an hour, mother found the boys sitting outside but playing [00:15:00] with the tab because the ma, when the mother said, go outside and play, actually the mother said go outside and do physical play.

But for that children, the child, that child. Doesn't understand what is mean by physical play or, uh, going outside and play. Uh, he only knows that playing with mobile phone or playing with tab. So nowadays, most of the children, they are, I will say, addicted. Towards the mobile phone. And so, uh, I will say that is the scenario in our country, and it's not only in, in the city, it's also in the villages.

Nowadays people have mobile phone and it's very easy to get a mobile phone. And we, all adults are also very busy, uh, with mobile phone or the technology. There are definitely advantages. Like for example, now we can do the podcast. Very easily with, uh, by using the [00:16:00] technology. But beside that, there are also some es for that.

And children are, uh, suffering because they do not know how to play without any object or they do not understand that. I will say that term free play. And because they only say, okay, I, I'm feeling bored. Mom, can you give me the mobile phone? Or when the mom is not there, they will go to the father.

Can you give me the phone, mobile phone? Or then they'll try to manage the grandparents. So it's the, uh, scenario nowadays in our country. 

Julie: So you've, you've seen that huge shift for, you know, a mobile phone being seen as a sign of smartness. Yes. In the family, and I know from conversations we've had before about how education, academic studying is, is hugely valued in your family Yes.

And in the wider culture of [00:17:00] your country. And the mobile phone is associated with that. So not so much about status, but about actually what access it gives you. To, to education and academics. 

Mostak: Yes. I mean I, as you have mentioned that, I will say it's the common scenario in the South Asian country, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, China, or other countries.

So our parents, they think that, okay, yeah, you have to do very well. Either you have to, either you'll have to become a doctor or a engineer. Or I mean otherwise there are no profession, so they just force them to do a study well properly or something like that. So actually they're also not getting time. It's also true the childrens are also not getting time after coming from school.

Maybe they're just going for a tuition or for, uh, coaching or they're just maybe finishing their um, lunch. [00:18:00] In the bus or in the car because they have to go to another, uh, teacher or something like that. So they're also not getting chance to play. I mean, during the afternoon, which, uh, we used to get. So that is another reason that, uh, because parents are, for, your parents want, you need to get a plus, uh, or 90 plus in your exam.

Then, uh, it's fine. Or your neighbors look at the neighbor, they're doing well. So I mean, that is also common, uh, in our, uh, country. 

Julie: So that drive to, to be a doctor, to be an engineer, to have a highly valued profession 

Mostak: Yes. 

Julie: Is having the impact of. Lessening the amount of time a child can have to play because they're being asked to study right through.

What was your old playtime [00:19:00] when you were small? You got that play period in the afternoon, but you're, you are seeing that diminishing, and of course you've ended up in a career that has the word play in it. Psychologist in it. What did your parents, grandparents, family members think of that?

Because you haven't become a doctor, you haven't become an engineer. 

Mostak: Yes. Okay. So that's funny. I mean, like when I told everyone that I'm going to do the psychological course um, my uncle, they used to say, oh, it's a lipstick subject. Lipstick subject means it's, yes, it's a subject for girls. So girls will do.

Psychological course. Men, uh, they will go for like B-B-A-M-B-A or business or banking. So psychology is the subject for girls. So why are you choosing to do psychology? You'll not be [00:20:00] able to earn money. Yeah. Yes. That was their perception. I mean, like 15 years ago. But I will say after the COVID, uh, after the pandemic.

And, uh, after the, like Rohingya influx in our country nowadays, people are understanding the term psychology. So once they used to make fun of the word or psychology, so he's a mad person or, uh, he can say anything by seeing the face. So now. Their perceptions are being changed and now they're asking, yes.

Uh, if I get, if I can get any help. Or can you give me some suggestion or something like that, or any tips? So day by day gradually, I will say, uh, due to the, uh, effect of the pandemic, people are now understanding the importance of having a positive mental health because lots of people [00:21:00] died during the pandemic and many people in our country and in.

So they also do, did suicide, uh, due to not having any job proper job. I mean, after the post pandemic or something like that. So I will say that is also, uh, maybe an impact that now people are understanding. Uh. The importance of, psychologist or I will say, uh, play therapy, something like that.

Because I know when I, uh, when I was, when I, I mean I told everyone that I'm going for, I mean, I'm joining play Therapy course. So they said What? Play therapy course. So you'll just play. So how can it'll be a course? I mean, so is it for the children who cannot speak properly? So you will play with them. So uh, what is mean by play therapy?

But day by day the situations are being changed. And I like [00:22:00] to mention here in our country, like earlier parents used to come to me, uh, as a client with their children. So they used to say. See, my child is only playing and that is their complaint because my child is only playing, he is not studying properly.

But I mean, earlier they didn't use to understand that children's languages play and they will play. And through play they will learn. Through play they will heal. But earlier parents used to say playing is a waste of time. 

Julie: And so have you seen that shift? Because could you say a little bit about how your week looks work-wise, because you've got several hats that you wear during the week.

And, and then, yeah. And then I'd like to take us a little bit into actually what happens with the parents and the children, but if you could just give us the context of what your working week looks like. [00:23:00] 

Mostak: Okay, so, uh, right now I'm working as a, uh, lecturer and, uh, play therapist, uh, in a university. So I'm basically working there, uh, five days.

And, uh, so I have another two days weekend where I am, uh, doing, uh, uh, I mean when, where I'm working as a psychologist or. A play therapist. And basically Friday and Saturday is a holiday or weekend in our country. So I'm utilizing those Friday and Saturday, uh, for my clients for doing play therapy and for working with the children and parents.

Uh, and other five days I'm quite busy with, uh, of, uh, taking. Classes or sometimes making contents for different type of projects. So it's also a challenging thing for me because as you have mentioned that, uh, [00:24:00] earlier that I am the only one play therapist. So if I just do play therapy with children, that will be a tough for me in kind, uh, in terms of profession.

Because still, uh, people are not much aware of taking play therapy nowadays. Counseling has, uh, become a common thing in our country. So adults are coming and spending their money, uh, for doing the counseling, but for play therapy. In our country, parents have to spend money for their children. So that's why like after few sessions they said, oh, I mean, I have to give so much money or something like that.

So parents want a quick solution for their children. So my, uh, child is not, uh. Behaving nicely or my child is not, uh, studying properly do something. So it's like a magic uh, for them. But definitely it's not for everyone. The situations are being [00:25:00] changed now earlier in our country. Uh, I mean, we used to live in an extended family or joint family, so I will say, which is quite, uh, different from the European life.

But nowadays, as everyone is being busy nowadays, a father and mother, they're also working to handle the monetary thing. That's why everyone is busy nowadays. The problems are also being arise, so that's why parents are also willing to take, uh, therapy 

Julie: for themselves. To take therapy for themselves.

Yeah, for 

Mostak: themselves. But for the children, yes. I mean, they're spending money, but like as in our country, there is no like insurance policy or there is no such thing like the government will pay, so they have to pay their own therapy bill. So that's why sometimes maybe [00:26:00] they're willing to do that, but they might not have enough money to continue for doing the sessions.

Julie: Absolutely because the training that you and I have done, the BAPT play therapy training in England we, we think of sort of 10 to 15 sessions as, being a minimum. And in, in the placements that you've done, you know, 10 or 12 as the minimum and then the second placement, you go up to 30. And certainly a lot of the families I work with, the children I work with.

You know, I, I always say, let's start with 12, see where we go. And then quite often we find ourselves doing 20, sometimes 30. Occasionally there's a client that I see for 2, 3, 4 years, and we get over a hundred sessions because the therapy evolves as the child is. Growing, growing and growing and reaching [00:27:00] puberty, moving into adolescence, then, you know, the, the therapy can take them through all those stages.

But what you are describing there, and I'm wondering how, how that is as the therapist because the parent is paying directly for it and they want something in inverted to be fixed quickly. After two or three sessions of play therapy in the style we do it, the child-centered play therapy, there's unlikely to be any noticeable shift.

In fact, there could well be a deterioration. So I'm wondering how does that work with your clients, you know? Yes. Do you have anybody who stays beyond two or three sessions? 

Mostak: Yes. That's the challenging thing. Like, uh, when I work with my supervisor as, uh, I took supervision, uh, online supervision from uk, uh, for doing the uh, play therapy here.

So I also [00:28:00] struggle in finding clients. So that is my main biggest, uh, problem, uh, in my country. So that's why I still, I'm doing lots of like orientation on play therapy training, or like, I. Foundation course on play therapy so that people will understand, the teacher will understand, or academician, they will understand.

So then I will get the referral from the parents or from the teacher. So I'll say day by day it's changing. Earlier it was really tough. It, was like. Four or five clients, but they're just taking one or two sessions. But as you have mentioned, it's quite difficult because, uh, then, uh, I mean, sometimes it might take six to eight session for do for doing a proper what should I say?

To understand the child properly or to make the rapport, sometimes it takes five to six sessions. [00:29:00] So that was a very challenging thing for me. But yes, luckily now I now I'm working with a child and yes, uh, he has already done like, uh, 11 sessions, so I am feeling really well that, and hopefully the mother has also understood the importance of play therapy.

And she's also investing the money and she trust, uh, on the therapy session. She, uh, has the trust, uh, on me. And that's why I think, uh, there's also an bond with the child. And I'm, continuing doing that, but earlier, like sometimes I couldn't say, uh, I mean goodbye to the child. I used to work maybe like after seven sessions, suddenly they stopped or so sometimes, and uh, as you have mentioned in child, uh, child-centered play therapy or non-directive play therapy, uh, it's quite challenging.

So [00:30:00] nowadays I'm seeing if you want to do a session, so you have to do six sessions. Otherwise, I don't want to, uh, start doing. Or maybe I'll just talk and as I am an educational psychologist, so maybe I will just consult with you as a psychologist, but not as a play therapist or something like that.

Because if I start doing play therapy, so I need this amount of sessions. Otherwise, I mean, there will be on, there will be no benefit. So I'm trying to psychoeducation the parents. I mean, they're understanding the importance and Yes. So, 

Julie: yeah. I'm curious about, so then how differently might you work with a child if you're working as a play therapist and working with a child as an educational psychologist?

How different do those [00:31:00] two look? 

Mostak: Yes. Uh, I mean, like when I, I still could remember in, uh, I mean, when I went for doing the masters in play therapy, that time our course coordinator say that you have to unlearn few things because like as an, uh, educational psychologist, we used to do assessment, like IQ test or adults use for, uh, uh, screening the autism children or something like that.

So they're more like assessment and assessment and assessment, but when I am working as a play therapist, so it's quite a different thing. Where I will stay with the child, I follow the, uh, child's lead and I will have a trust on the process. But. Uh, as, uh, in our country as I'm not getting, uh, clients, uh, sometimes and most of the cases, if a doctor says, if a psychologist, uh, referred to me, okay, do an IQ test [00:32:00] for the child or do something like that, do any kind of assessment.

So that's, I mean, where I'm getting the, uh, client and where I also informed them that yes, I'm a play therapist, so if you want to work with me. So you can continue doing that. But as a, an, as an educational psychologist, I also do like assessment for the children. But, uh, I mean, I'm not saying, uh, that, uh, doing assessment, uh, is a positive or negative thing, but nowadays, after doing the play therapy course or after working with as a.

It seems to me I'm, not helping the child. Yes, maybe I am just assessing the child, which, which will create a level leveling for the child. Maybe, uh, I mean, if the child has a lower iq, but what will happen? Yeah. And now, I mean we also know that this type of assessment, [00:33:00] there are a few questions which you might not be able to answer if you have not done it earlier.

So yes, that's where, I mean, I'm also, I also struggle sometimes and I also try to. Educate or self-educate to the parents that yes. Okay, that's fine. You can do the assessment, but this is not the end of the result. I mean, this is a, this is work like, as a process. So you need to work with your children, the teacher in the school, they need to work with the children, your cycle of this.

So it's like in, more as in holistic work or community work, uh, for the children. So then, uh, you will see the. Changes in your child, otherwise, uh, it you'll say, okay, I went to that psychologist, but he couldn't do anything. So then I change. So it's like doing shopping from jumping from one psychologist to another psychologist.

Julie: Yeah. [00:34:00] And I was thinking about, you know, thinking about the clients that you have been able to see for more than a couple of weeks, their play. Just generally, if there's such a thing. The play of children in Bangladesh in therapy. Do you notice or did you notice a difference with the way your clients played during your training?

In your training, you met five or six UK clients, and I'm guessing London based clients because that's where the training was. Is there a difference in the way little people play in Bangladesh and little people play in the uk and one was pre COVID, the uk one was pre COVID, and, and the, your current one is post COVID.

Okay. I'm just curious about that. 

Mostak: I would say for children, I mean for young [00:35:00] children I'll say there is no difference. Whether they're in, uh, UK or whether they're in in Bangladesh or I'll say whether in other countries, it seems to me, and what I'm also observing, uh, in the play therapy room.

That they like to play, they will do role play. Uh, they will like to play projective play. They want to play with Ry, and they like to make lots of different kind of thing. But I'll say in our country, those who are like around, 11 or 10 or 12. I found I mean, it's hard for me to play with them because, uh, I mean, when they come to the room, they say, so, so you don't have any computer or you don't have any mobile phone or can you bring a mobile phone or.

Computer so we can play together like Clash of Clean Free Fire or this type of, [00:36:00] I mean, group game or like fighting game. So those were in, I would say in 10, 11, and 12. They find it hard and sometimes they say, oh, these are four children. I mean, I'm not children anymore. And they're thinking of themself as a teenager.

And it seems to me I mean when in our time I mean like, uh. Teenage time nowadays, the teenage time is, uh, coming a little bit earlier maybe due to the advancement of technology and everything. So I, when they're in when their age is eight, nine, or 10, so it seems to me like they're behaving as in.

Adult or they're thinking themself as a teenager. And sometimes it's also true for the parents. So parents come to the room, say, oh, I mean, I, my play, my children will not live this because these are for young children. So, uh, can you change the toys? [00:37:00] Or can you do this and that? So, then I can understand that where the thought is coming from.

Julie: So it might not be from the child, it might be the parent projecting that onto the child that this is too babyish for you. This is too young for you. 

Mostak: Yes. 

Julie: And, and, and do you bring different stuff in or do you, do you keep the same stuff and see what happens? 

Mostak: Yes. I mean, gradually what I did, I introduced some board games like Uno UNO and different type of games, which is very common, uh, very common.

And childrens know about that. So it seems to me, so these are very helpful. So those, but uh, as, uh, when I discussed with my supervisor, I could understand these are not very like, uh. Nondirective play therapy tools or something like that, those type of board game. [00:38:00] But I will say those are the tools that help me to make the rapport with the children because those are familiar to them.

So that's my initial thing, uh, to move forward. Yes. So I bring UNO or different type of board game, uh, in my play therapy room. So, which they really like to play. 

Julie: Yeah. To build that therapeutic relationship. The rapport, 

Mostak: yes. 

Julie: To have something that's familiar and approachable for the child.

And yeah, I think in the, in the play therapy training, there are lots of different, or in the play therapy world, there are different thoughts about to have board games or not to have board games. Um, I'm with you. Must I? I have. Snakes and ladders. I have a pack of cards. I have a lovely one called Penguin Peril.

I dunno if you've ever come across that I'll, it, it, it is [00:39:00] a sort of iceberg of little hexagons that fit together. Little penguin sits in the middle and you each take turns. You have a hammer each, and you take turns to knock out a blue hexagon, an ice cube, or a white one until the penguin falls.

I. And, and I found, and my students love that as well. We, we found that it's a game that there aren't many, I mean, you make up the rules a bit like what you did with the monopoly when you were younger. Of course there are the rules, but. It's the conversations that happen around how I and the client have decided, or the client has decided how that, what they're gonna do with this.

Some children ignore the penguin isn't even part of it, and they just, they build blocks and patterns with the blue and the white shapes. And for me it's [00:40:00] a very non-directive, child-centered way of playing. Where the child, through the board game or through the activity that does have some set rules, when those are put to the side, I get a real sense of how the child feels able to be free in creating their own rules.

And those rules often for me, often. Give light to how the child sees themselves and sees the world. Yes. You know, the child who never wants to win a game, or the child who makes the rules, that they're all biased towards themselves, that they always win. They always put me down. They always make sure I lose, they always make it impossible for me to get to the top of snakes and.

That tells me so much about how the child sees themselves, sees the world, and then we've [00:41:00] got something to work with. Yeah, 

Mostak: as you have mentioned, it's like the joint attention. So the child is also looking at that object or that board game, which he is familiar. And so he is gaining the trust in the play therapy room and gradually he is also more interested to other, uh, other object, which he didn't explore earlier.

Julie: Yeah. So it's like a window into the room. Yeah. Come towards the end. I, wanted to get a sense of what next? How would you like things to be? What's your passion? What's your desire for play, for therapy and your country? 

Mostak: Yes, I will. Uh, I mean, right now, as I have mentioned, it's quite difficult for me to manage that [00:42:00] time because, uh, like after the COVID, the time schedule has been changed.

In most of the workplaces I. So nowadays, though the office times are like from nine to five, but sometimes you might have a online meeting which is from like seven to 11:00 PM or 9:00 PM or something like that due to the pressure and everybody is being accustomed to like Zoom or Google Meet or WhatsApp.

So like I will say WhatsApp has also become an office for us. So you have to check every time that you might have missed. Sometime it's quite difficult to give time properly because when you do therapy, so like you need to have some reflections, you need to have some time that, that what you'll do.

So I don't know when, but I'm thinking. That maybe I will, rather than doing full-time job, I will [00:43:00] do, uh, part-time, like maybe two days or three days, uh, job, uh, in one organization. So other days I will work as a therapist and I will also do the training because nowadays, uh, mean people are interested to learn they learn, they like to learn about.

Positive parenting or like importance of, uh, different type of play. So people want to join workshops or webinar or hands-on training. So I'm also interested to run more this type of. Sessions and there are opportunities, people from different districts and different organizations. They're also inviting me to do this type of things, but due to the lack of time, I can't do that.

But when I will have enough time, so I'll be able to, uh, utilize those time so when they will [00:44:00] aware. So definitely I will get. More clients and people and children. So that's my, uh, I mean plan for the, uh, future. And like I, I have also opened my one organization, it's called like. Kite Wellness hub, uh, kite.

From, I mean, nowadays I'm just, enrolling some volunteers from, uh, different university students. So we are doing different type of things. But yes, in the long, in the long run or in the future, I have plan to run. Or this type of training and seeing clients, uh, from the organization.

It's as you, I mean, right now I'm thinking as you told me that. Okay. Uh, I mean, nowadays how you are thinking, [00:45:00] thinking the play definition in your adulthood life. So I will say, uh, I mean that is also the part, like when I'm, when I think about the kite page, okay, what I have to post, okay, what I will have to post on on Friday.

So it seems to me I'm doing brainstorming or this type of thing. So, which also make me happy and which also make me playful when I spend time thinking about that. Hmm. 

Julie: So dreaming, brainstorming, being creative, daydreaming. Yes. Thinking about what, what could be, and it sounds like some of it has already started.

You are such an advocate for play and therapy and children already in Bangladesh, and I can see from your website and we'll post a link to your website. You've been interviewed on tv, you've put out, you've got recordings of trainings and you are from Bangladesh and you were [00:46:00] talking to your your fellow Bangladeshian, is that a word?

Bangladesh? Yes, Bangladesh. Sorry, I didn't know the word for that. Apologies. But the importance of having somebody from the same. Culture, culture speaking the same language. Thinking about the, particular issues of your districts and your areas the, same as I might do in South London, which is different to Philippa, um, up in Stoke and tr we live in different parts of England.

Yes. And we have different challenges in, in those two regions and how important it is to have somebody local. Passionate and I, I really hope that you find fellow people to work alongside you and that you will draw other people into the play therapy world, [00:47:00] into the, importance of play for the children and young people in Bangladesh, and that you enjoy playing with those ideas with yourself, but also with others.

In, in the months and years to come. 

25: I, I like, I like the quote and it seems to me, I mean, I always remember that the land word, the trust, the process things may get worse before it may get better. So I also believe that definitely, uh, if I trust the process, so definitely something better will happen for the people or for the children of Bangladesh.

Julie: Mm. And Gary Landreth is one of our sort of gurus. From from Texas. He's still going, uh, the University of Texas, Gary Landreth, who's seen as one of the pioneers of play therapy along with Virginia Ax Line. Those, those would be two of our, uh, key people that, that we listen [00:48:00] into. And that phrase, yeah, trust the process and that it may get worse before it gets better.

But I don't know how many times you and I heard that on our training, 

Mostak: trust the process and like, uh, I will say, I mean just if I just focus, change the focus from this topic that nowadays, if we think about the world I mean everywhere there, there are like political issues or other things. So I will say that would also fit here.

Trust the process, positive thing will, uh, happen. So it'll take time. So yes, I will say that was now nowadays, I, I, I think that that what is very powerful and we can use it, uh, and in our different part of our life. 

Julie: Yeah. Thank you so much for that. And thank you for giving up your late evening. Um, on a, what day of the week?

Is it a Wednesday? It's probably near 11 o'clock [00:49:00] at night for you, so I hope you sleep well. Yes, thank you for your time. I'm gonna go and have my tea and maybe do a little bit of playing in the garden with my plants. So thank you for all that you've offered to me and to our listeners. Today, and I'll say thank you and maybe in a few years time we'll check in with you again.

But for now, thank you for your time, for your thoughts. And that is the end of today's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy.