EP42 Empathy and Attachment: A conversation with Dr Sharon Giblin

In this week's episode of 'Pondering Play and Therapy', host Philippa welcomes Dr. Sharon Giblin, a consultant clinical psychologist with over 25 years of experience working with children and families. Philippa and Sharon discuss the attachment cycle, the concepts of shame and guilt, and the therapeutic approach known as PACE (Playfulness, Acceptance, Curiosity, and Empathy). Sharon shares her journey to becoming a clinical psychologist and elaborates on the importance of consistent caregiving, even through the challenging teenage years. They also delve into practical parenting tips, emphasizing the importance of maintaining connection and minimizing shame triggers to foster secure attachments and healthy development for children.

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Transcript

Empathy and Attachment: A conversation with Dr Sharon Giblin

[00:00:00] 

Philippa: welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me Philippa. And this week my guest is Dr. Sharon Giblin and she is a consultant clinical psychologist with over 25 years of working with children and families. And this week have I shown to. Come along and talk a little bit about attachment in the attachment cycle about sham and guilt and about pace, which is.

Playfulness, acceptance, curiosity, and empathy, which we've touched on over the last eight months. So welcome Sharon, and thank you to the podcast. Thank you for coming onto the podcast. Thank you for having me, Philip. It's really nice to be here. Clinical psychologist, that always sounds really posh to me, that when somebody says you're a clinical psychologist, I'm like, oh God, they're so clever.

They know all this stuff. How it's quite a lot, a long training [00:01:00] process. But I don't think, when I was at school, I ever knew anyone who said there were gonna be a clinical psychologist. People do psychology, but it's a lot more than a psychology degree, isn't it? How did you end up being a clinical psychologist?

Sharon: Oh, absolutely sure. At school, I don't think clinical psych was. How I got into psychology was I took a GTC psychology course alongside my school, GCSC once, just 'cause we were interested in it. And that makes me sound like Yeah. Oh really? Brainy. But no, I wasn't doing well in all my psychology, all my G disease, but this one I was interested in.

And my school didn't do GS e psychology, so took it out of interest really. And then that probably was the door open. And then I, I couldn't take it for a level because my college didn't do it for a level. And actually I was hoping to be [00:02:00] a historian and archeologist and that's what I thought I was going to go on to, to study in.

But I had a change of heart and ended up applying for psychology degrees, which were open to me 'cause I had done a G Cs E in it even though I hadn't done a level. And then I guess whilst being on the psychology degree, they then explained to you how you can use psychology in future careers.

And it was from then I learned about. Clinical psychology and actually I wanted, again, to be a forensic psychologist, first of all. And I did a placement as part of my undergraduate course which was both forensic and clinical and decided I like the clinical more. And it was from then that I thought, okay, I'd like to.

Undergraduate degree, you then have to get on to do a postgraduate degree to do clinical psychology, and usually you have to [00:03:00] be an assistant psychologist first, which is in between your undergraduate and becoming, getting on the doctorate course. So it's a long process, but it's an interesting one is what I would say.

Philippa: And I guess in some ways certainly, 'cause you and I have worked together and have done similar work in some ways. You are a historian, aren't you? You do look at people's histories it's very specific, but there is history's really important in, in what we do. Yes. And certainly as a psychologist, I imagine.

Sharon: I think you're absolutely right. I once had a colleague say to me that that archeology is about the study of sort of dead people's lives. And psychology is really about studying people who are still with us and talking about their histories and their stories and where that comes from. But you're absolutely right.

It's about the stories of people, isn't it? And that's what's fascinating about the work we do, I think together is people's [00:04:00] stories. 

Philippa: And it's an honor really, isn't it to be able to listen to somebody's stories, somebody's narrative and you know that they will share that sometimes quite painful things that have happened in their lives.

They will share it, whether they're little people right through to adults, really. 

Sharon: Absolutely. I think the I think honor's a really good word for it, isn't it? When people are brave enough to be vulnerable and share some of the difficult stuff and some of the good stuff in their lives as well, and to come and talk about that with you.

It is an honor and a privilege to be able to hear that and to be able to help them make sense with stuff. And to be trusted that way. 

Philippa: And some of that history is thinking about their attachment, isn't it? Which is the relationship that they had with a caregiver when they were a baby and a toddler.

Yes. So [00:05:00] do you want to just explain a little bit about the attachment cycle and why it's important? 

Sharon: Attachment is is absolutely, like you say, it's that absolutely fundamental human need to be in relationship with a caregiver. When we think about babies, when they're even when they're being grown in the womb and then when they're born, that babies, human babies are a hundred percent dependent on their caregiver.

So they cannot exist without having that relationship. And attachment to the attachment cycle is about how that bond is formed and how that bond actually what we know now really creates the baby's brain actually and brain functioning. So that attachment cycle is something that happens millions of times a day between the baby and the [00:06:00] carer.

And I guess what we mean by attachment cycle is where the baby signals and it feels something, whether it's. Or tired or bored or pain and it has a need and it signals the need to the caregiver and then the caregiver that usually your parent carer or grandparent, whoever's there.

Then look at the baby and figure out, oh, hang on, the baby needs some attention. The baby has a need. Figure out what that is, and then meet the need in the baby, whether it's change the nappy or burp the baby, or rock the baby or play with the baby. And then the baby's. Feels understood and has had its need met and can relax and feel cared for.

And also the parent can, or the carer can feel like they've done a good job and can feel like, ah, I've done a good job leaving the baby's had its needs met. That feels really good. [00:07:00] So it's it's a, process for both parent and child. It's a 

Philippa: relationship between them. And does that, continues, doesn't it?

Whether you are a toddler in mid age, teenager, adult we, still go through that cycle with, important 

Sharon: people. Absolutely. So that cycle happens as a baby thousands of times a day or a week with a carer. But it's still happening when they're three, when they're five, when they're seven, they might just communicate their signals differently.

A five year old's gonna have words and you're gonna have to. But also will still cry or will scream or have those sorts of responses. And it's still the, carer's job to try and figure out what that really means and what they, what the child wants, and then meet the need for the child so that they can go around that cycle again.

And then as you say, that goes right on through to adulthood, doesn't it? [00:08:00] If we think about our teenage years, we might be like coming in from school and being grumpy and slamming doors, and it's up to our parents to go, either don't slam the door, or, oh, hang on, they've had a bad day.

Let's go and figure out what's happened and why they slammed the door. Yeah. Those signals right through to as. In our adult partnerships, it's when we coming from work or we're getting stuck with something. How does our partner recognize that we need something and help us through that?

Really? 

Philippa: And there's very basic needs isn't there that you need from a baby right through to an adult that we would want to be. To be consistently met, really. So like food, shelter, tho, those sorts of things. We even as a teenager, you still need to be fed sometimes. Quite a lot from my recollection with, my uhhuh head, there was a lot of food went in at times.

Yeah. Sleep, which you know, [00:09:00] is really important all the way through. Yeah. And sometimes it changes a little bit and as caregivers we can feel a little bit outta sorts in that cycle. Do you think as a teenager they start to go to sleep a little bit later 'cause that's naturally what they're meant to do.

But as a parent or a caregiver might think, they need to go to sleep at 10 and they're not going to sleep till one. And that can wobble that attachment cycle, can it a little bit. Oh 

Sharon: sure. I think that's an absent classic one isn't you're describing there. It's where the teenagers biochemistry is really telling them to go to bed later and to get up later.

But often there's things like school demands that they need to get up, so they need to bed early enough in order to get up early enough. And then it's on, the parents get them up and out to school and that can create lots of conflict, and then the parent has might not know about the biochemistry changes that happens during teenage years.

That means that they are gonna find [00:10:00] it harder to fall asleep, but also stay, wanna stay asleep for longer. They sleep a long time like toddlers do, really, don't they? Because they're going, their brain's going through such a phase of changing during those teenage years. It requires a lot more rest in order for that to happen.

But yeah, so that can then put some tensions on some of that cycle kind, that attachment cycle, because it's like the child has a need, but the parent is like, how does the parent meet the need when it might be in at odds with getting them up for school on time and creating frustrations in the relationship for each other.

Yeah. 

Philippa: And if you've had I suppose if you've been able to go through that attachment cycle on a consistent basis and then there's these moments of rupture and 'cause those might go on for several weeks or several months, weren't they? From my experience, I think it felt like about two years when my kid was kind of 13 and 14.

I was [00:11:00] like, are we ever gonna get to the end of this where it feels like there's this constant conflict going on? 

Sharon: Yeah. 

Philippa: Does that mean then that we've broken the attachment? 

Sharon: Ah, yeah I guess it can sometimes feel like it gets really sticky, can't it? Is that what you're thinking about?

And it can feel like all you're doing is butting up against this real sort of tension, can't it? And that can be really tricky 'cause then all the child can feel is a bit got at and criticized and all the parent can feel like they're doing as they're nagging and bracing and the joy can go out.

Actually some of the, playfulness and the care that seemed to happen when they were younger can feel like it's gone for a bit. And I think a lot of the families I've worked with have talked about when they've hit the teenage years that it's much harder to connect.

But there teenagers in that moment because a teenager naturally wants to spend more time with [00:12:00] friends and spend more time on their own in their rooms. There's less opportunities for the nice caregiving stuff and much more opportunity for that kind of relationship rupture that you're talking about there, where there can be conflicts and arguments as well, so it can So does that.

Philippa: Does that then mean though, that the attachment has been broken and that it that actually it's been damaged irreparably and that we are not that they, 'cause the teenagers not all, but some will say, I hate you. I don't wanna be here. Such and such's mom's just so much better than you.

Oh yeah. When I leave home, I'm never coming back and. And it can feel like a massive rejection, can't it? Yeah. And you've put all this work and done all this stuff, and then all of a sudden there's this rejection. Yeah. And does that, is that kind of breaking, that, that attachment that you've built [00:13:00] is it damaged or can it weather it?

I would say that 

Sharon: absolutely. No, it's not automatically broken. I would say it, it's challenged. I think the rupture is definitely the right word, but with rupture there can always be repair. I guess I would say that the stronger the relationship seemed to have been when they were younger, perhaps the easiest is to weather these things.

Would you agree with that in your experience? Yeah. So, if things have been rocky when they're younger. For many reasons that can happen, can't it because of illness or situations happening to make things rockier, then that might make weathering the teenage stuff a bit more difficult.

But I would always say that it's about how you go to repair that relationship. And also having that longer we can have the term view that the child might not be able to. It's a stage. It might feel [00:14:00] like a very long one, like two years or more. Yeah. It's a very long phase they're not gonna be the same at 15 as they are at 17, as they are at 21, as they're at 25.

People change and grow and develop. I think there is always that future relationship that you can aim towards. 

Philippa: Yeah. For the 

Sharon: care and getting it there. 

Philippa: So you mentioned that maybe when children are younger, that attachment cycle hasn't the meeting of that need hasn't always been consistent for whatever reason.

So that can create. What, I guess generally is called an insecure attachment, can't it? When maybe for whatever reason, from in the womb, from when there were babies, the toddlers, there's something that disrupts that, that. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? About the things that can disrupt the attachment?

[00:15:00] Yeah. And what I guess what impacts it as well what impacts that then can have on the children and the young people as they grow. Yeah. So the kind 

Sharon: of things that often impact that attached attachment cycle happening is if there isn't perhaps consistent enough care from the caregiver and the child.

And that might happen for a whole host of reasons. One of them is if the child is ill and it has to be in hospital, and can the parents stay with them? Can the parent be with them all the time, or are they having multiple. Carers, like nursing staff caring for them, how much touch they're getting.

You've spoken about the importance of touch on this podcast previously. Those kind of children are very physically unwell. There might be some difficulties in, in being able to touch them as a baby normally would, a rocked and soon, and all those things that have that attachment bond and that attachment cycle [00:16:00] grow, that can get in the way.

And then of course there might be situations where children can't. Stay in the families that they were born into. And they're having to move and they might have to move more than once from their birth families into emergency foster care, and then from emergency foster care into foster placement, and then from the foster placement sometimes into another foster placement or onto an adoptive family perhaps.

And that is all might be all very good care they've had, but the fact that they've. Series of different adult carers caring for them and actually interrupts the child's ability to be able to form a secure bond with an adult, 

Philippa: even if they were babies though, even if they're tiny babies and they can't remember it, does it still affect them?

Sharon: Yes. I think what we've learned more more recent sort of decades or so, is that there is [00:17:00] memories are laid down in what the body feels. It's a felt sense of memory rather than the memories that we might know, which is cognitive. And it's got pictures and it's got words to it.

It's got a story to it that can happen later on when you've got language and you can remember those things. But as babies, it's a felt sense, isn't it? It's a felt sense of. Predictability of safety, of knowing that if I make a signal, if I have a need, it's going to be predictably met and that the car is going to understand me and treat me kindly and I'm going to be safe and I'm not gonna be hurt.

That isn't the experience for every young person, every baby that's born. Unfortunately for many reasons. And if they don't have that predictable routine, consistent, good enough care, I think we call it good enough, not be perfect, but that good enough kind of care from an adult carer where they can learn that adults are safe and predictable and will meet their needs.[00:18:00] 

Then the child then struggles with to make attachment bonds later on. 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. I often think about just a simple act of having your nappy changed and if you are having your nappy changed. It starts in a certain way, doesn't it? So it might be that with me, they're laid down on a changing mat and then I gather all the things and then I do it in one way and it, and then there's a middle bit to it where you attune to that child or the baby, don't you?

They might be grumpy. So you are doing that. Oh, don't worry, it's nearly done. We're gonna get dinner and you're doing the soothing and the empathy. Or they might be playful, so you're giving them their socks or their tights to play with. So you are attuning in the middle bit, aren't you? And then they don't like the touch of the cream and you do a bit of empathy and then it ends in a certain way.

And I think that is [00:19:00] like the rhythm of life. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end, and you go through it 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 times a day over and over again. And I, suppose when you've got the same. Caregiver or the same two caregivers doing it, then you start to embody, don't you that are, they line me on the mat, I feel uncomfortable, but they've laid me on this mat and now that uncomfortable awfulness is gonna go.

But if you move to a how. Then maybe the next person changes. The changes you on their lap. So you've started to build that rhythm of, okay, so this is what it like. So when I feel uncomfortable in the beginning, the middle of an end and I'm gonna feel better and I'm gonna be played with. But now you are laid, you've got that feeling and you are laid on their lap.

Or you are you are a little bit older. So some people do it standing up. I don't know how people do it standing up, but some people do it standing up. There's [00:20:00] lots of different ways that you change your nappy isn't there? Yeah. In a lot of different, and so that, I guess that rhythm that you learn about that beginning, middle, and end, that predictable, consistent understanding of connection of changes, doesn't it?

It's not that the changing of the nappy is any better or worse in any of those households, whether it's on your knee, whether it's on on in a certain mat, whether it's on the floor. They're all meeting that baby's need, but it's almost like it, it doesn't, the babies will struggle to understand, okay, so this is gonna be okay and safe.

It feels unsafe. I imagine that all of a sudden you're now in someone's knee. Would Yeah. Yeah, I think 

Sharon: absolutely. And I think that that consistency and routine is about what builds that sense of safety and security, isn't it? I think we know now that even starts in the womb, doesn't it? So babies can [00:21:00] get very familiar with their mother's voice in the womb and differentiate that voice.

To other people's voices. So then when they're born, they already have that bond that, that familiarity with the, birth mother. In the room. So if any of that sort of interrupted at that point, that can be. Disruptive for the child. So if babies can't stay with their birth mothers and immediately taken, we used to think they're babies, they'll never know.

They'll never remember that. But actually we know now that in itself is a big rupture, isn't it? Because we know that they've already had nine months of familiarity with that voice and that, and the smell and the and all that sort of stuff come, from being grown in the womb, really.

Yeah. 

Philippa: And I guess just moving that on a little bit. And another thing I suppose the attachment cycle does is move children and babies from shame into [00:22:00] guilt. So can you just talk a little bit about shame and the purpose of shame and I guess why we don't want our children to stay in shame. 

Sharon: Yeah that's really important, isn't it?

I think we understand that shame is one of the sort of key emotions that we can feel. One of the earliest emotions that we can feel along with happy and sad and angry and those kind of feelings. Shame is also there too. And. It's really horrible feeling, isn't it? Shame. It's that feeling of, being really vulnerable and exposed and feeling people are looking at us and are thinking negatively about us.

And that we've done. Something something's really bad is happening. It's really frightening feeling and an awful feeling in us. And [00:23:00] we can feel that really early on as children. So very minor staff. Yeah. I actually remember my first instance of shame as a child or one of them.

I remember I remember I was preschool. I was being dropped to nursery and my mom was going off to work and I didn't want my mom to leave. And I remember getting very upset and kicking and screaming. I. Kicking and screaming like this. And she's picked me up and she's handing me over to the nursery, people outside the nursery, and they're having to take me and I'm kicking and screaming.

And then the bit that I remember the shame about is later on, I think I was playing at a water sort of table in the sand table quite happily, and the person came along and said to me, are you okay now? So it was a kind sort of statement, but I remember feeling that shame of feeling like having created a big scene or done something really silly.[00:24:00] 

Yeah. And I'm not even sure, I don't remember the adults particularly saying, or you were really silly or stop it. But I wonder if they were maybe in the handing over just don't worry, you'll be fine. Maybe they were dismissing. My, at that point, I can't really remember the words.

I just remember the feeling of shame when she came over and said, are you okay? Because I think they think it was paired with I'm Okay, so why was I making such a s? Yeah. Yeah. I think there was a shame about that. But, so I think children feel shame all the time about stuff that happens. If they break something, they might immediately feel ashamed if they've broken something.

And I think what you were talking about there is how is that handled with the caregiver is really important. 

Philippa: But can we just go back? 'cause shame is, I am bad, isn't it? That's how it's internalized into I am a bad person, I did something wrong rather than [00:25:00] this thing happened that wasn't okay.

Is that right? Yes. I 

Sharon: think that's the difference between the shame and the guilt feeling. I think we feel like the guilt feeling is the the more developed feeling that comes outta these things. So shame is that feeling of, I'm bad, I've done I'm wrong. This is awful. I'm the wrong thing here.

Whereas guilt is more of a feeling of I've done a bad thing. Which feels a bit different, doesn't it? And I've done a bad thing and it's, had an impact on someone else, but it also means I can maybe do something about it. Whereas actually shame is that feeling of I am the bad thing. What can you do about that other than feel awful?

I'm the bad thing. I think what happens developmentally is when children have these natural shame experiences for these everyday occurrences that happen. They can experience the shame and as long as the caregiver is able to offer [00:26:00] a kind and empath understanding response to that, like going, oh dear, you were really upset, or, oh dear, don't worry, we all break things.

Come on them. Let's clear it up together. It's okay. Then that will then move the child from Shane into a, oh, oops. I did a bad, but it's okay. Do. But if the caregiver isn't for some reason able to do that or isn't around or actually in fact continues the shame by saying, you are really naughty.

You shouldn't have done that. Don't drop that tea everywhere. You are a bad kid. Then that internalizes that shame. And if a child is left in those kind of situations. Do often than do long as a child where actually they're not having a helpful repair to their shame experiences, then that can lead to that feeling of deeply feeling shame that I'm a bad person, I'm unlovable, I'm unwanted, I can't do anything, those kind of feelings. 

Philippa: [00:27:00] Yeah, so being, I guess like when I was growing up, things like the naughty step and those kind of stuff. I remember being told at school to go and stand outside the classroom and face the wall. I was outside the classroom quite a lot at points in my school life, but actually that is.

That is quite shaming, isn't it? 'cause you are left with it. You haven't got anybody to help, to help you. I was really lucky because I had a balance in that I was really good at sport, so I had lots and lots of positive affirmation through my sport. So being sent outside and standing in the classroom actually got me a lot, quite a bit of kudos.

But I had a lot of resilience. Because I had a lot of, a lot, a huge amount of positive praise from being good at sport. But I imagine if you haven't got that buffer [00:28:00] being sent away to, to be on your naughty step or stand outside or whatever it is, you are left with that feeling, I'm guessing. 

Sharon: Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that's right. Philippa, our school systems I think, rely a lot on those kind of shame based strategies to help children to try and help children behave and stick to the rules. But how they impact on the child can very much depend on exactly what you are saying there. Fier is what else is in the child's life. So for someone who does have a lot of other positive relationships and other good things going alongside them, being stuck out in the corridor for a bit on their own with people walking past probably, it's okay, might not be the best, but it's not gonna be the worst thing for them.

And like you say, gave you a bit of kudos maybe. Yeah. But if we think about a child that has had a very difficult start in life. And is actually struggling to feel like they belong anywhere, struggling [00:29:00] to like they belong in the family that they're in, struggling to how make friendships struggling with all those kind of bigger issues that get and.

They struggle to stay in the classroom and struggle to keep to the rules because they've got all many, so many other needs as well that need to be met. That learning is well below. They're still trying to figure out if they're safe in this world and if they can make connection. So if they're then sent out the room, then that for them might feel really rejecting and really othering, and it might be much more damaging for them being sent out the room and then is much more likely to produce more shame-based behavior.

Which might be problematic for the school rather than them going, oh, I won't do that. I'll behave. So it's not a great system for, school or for children really, when it doesn. So when you 

Philippa: say shame-based behavior what do you mean by that? What, is shame-based behavior? 

Sharon: I guess we can see when shame's been triggered [00:30:00] in children, when they behave in sort of ways where I think it's Miriam Silver, isn't it?

We can put her book up at the end, can't we? But she talks about the shield of shame, so carrying a shield to try and protect herself from feeling shame. And within that, children can tell lies. So just. Say that it wasn't them, they didn't do it. They can blame other people. It wasn't me, it was Billy that did that and totally believed.

That was it wasn't them that did it. They can minimize the impact of their behavior, oh it was just one bite. It wasn't the whole thing. So it doesn't matter if I've stolen someone's sweets or something. And anger as well. So that kind of fails. And often there's an angry response, which is a way of.

Defending themselves and keeping themselves keeping other people away, isn't it? And they can just be raging and angry. [00:31:00] And often those behaviors are ones that as adults we don't like to see in children. They're the ones that attract consequences. And that get parents and adults really worried and school's really worried.

If a child's lying and deceitful and minimizing and angry that creates lots of problems. It gets them into more problem, into more trouble, and then they end up. Stuck the corner again. 

Philippa: And I wonder if sometimes, I'm just thinking about my, I think it's Dan Hughes that does the Shield of Shame.

Okay. I dunno. But I'll check. I'll check and we'll put it at the end, whether it's mi, but Miriam Silva does do a great book, doesn't she? Which is it, sorry, 

Sharon: it's in her book, the Shield, drawing it out. Maybe Dan talks about it and Maria maybe. Yeah, I think she does. 

Philippa: Is it attachment in doodles? Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. So we'll put that book 'cause it is a great book as well. We're gonna come on to talk about Dan News in a minute, but I suppose I just wondered that kind of, that deny, minimize blame and then the [00:32:00] rage sometimes. I guess what we are talking about here is that children maybe haven't developed into the guilt stuff about being able to separate themselves from their behavior.

I remember there was where my. I'm just gonna tell you a little story and then I'm gonna move on to my point. But when my son was little, he's probably about four. And I was learning about all this stuff, so I was really into, it's not him, it's his, it's the behavior you need to create, the behavior, you need to praise the behavior, you need to do all this.

Or, and he was at preschool just before going into reception and his teacher had, or preschool teacher had told him off. And he'd said to her, misses, blah, blah, blah, you really should be correcting my behavior and not me. [00:33:00] And so I was called into class for him and to, into nurse and being cheeky.

And I was like he is, he's right. It just makes me laugh. But I suppose what I'm thinking is that sometimes. We can see that resurface in in teenagers again, can't we? That shame response. Where maybe they, because their brain then is resetting and they're very emotional, so they might have been able to do that separation, but then there's all of a sudden where it feels that they feel that we are getting at them, that we are ruining their fun, that we are doing this on purpose and that, and you can get some of that.

Minimizing that lying, that blaming, it's your fault. If you hadn't said, then I would never have done. And, [00:34:00] some of that is, I guess they've got the foundations of guilt and all those sorts of things, but all of a sudden there's this reboot in their brain and they're having to relearn a little bit of these things.

And really what's left is that emotional center. Absolutely. I think you 

Sharon: said it all there. Yeah, absolutely. Teenagers, it does, they go back through some of that separation. And I think what triggers it is, as you've said, as a toddler, part of the reason why toddlers can get quite difficult is they are beginning to assert themselves as little individuals and wanting to make decisions and they're more mobile and they, so they're beginning to do that first bit of separation from being the really dependent baby.

Now ones. They're now able to move about, aren't they? And then that feels like a similar trigger to when you get to the teenage years, which is all about actually separating yourself from your core family and turning outwards towards your peers and trying to figure out who you are and who you want to belong to.

So I [00:35:00] think it does seem to have a similar sort of trigger point for those. And if there are things that have gone on. That have are unresolved again, as teenagers can't, and teenagers are. 'cause they're going through all that change and they're trying to figure out who they are and everything's a bit uncertain.

They become very self-conscious and they also are trying to figure out who they're as well, aren't they? So it's a very difficult process for them. So that can be in itself quite a shame inducing and make them feel more vulnerable as individuals and like you say, much more sensitive to criticism and all those kind of dynamics.

Go on. 

Philippa: So then what, how do we parent through this or teach through this? What, is helpful? 

Sharon: The first rule would be that we'd need to think about when we're dealing with our young people and teenagers, if we try and think [00:36:00] about how we cannot activate shame responses and try and avoid those as much as possible, that is not the same as saying we're gonna avoid implementing boundaries or consequences.

Children still need those, especially and teenagers especially do need those too. But it's maybe about how we choose to do it and it's about the language perhaps that we choose. And a really good attitude to take is the Dan Hugs approach, isn't it? That I think you've mentioned on here about being about the PACE approach.

Being playful being accepting of where your young person is at in the moment. Being really curious about what their experience is and providing lots of empathy for their experience as well. And then with that, you can then use that attitude or pace to put alongside any boundaries or consequences that you need to do in order to help shape the behavior to, to keep the young person safe or put them back on the right course.

But you can try to do it in a [00:37:00] really non-shaming way. 

Philippa: Which I guess is easier said than done, isn't it? 'cause when we are parents, we want an outcome. This is what I think we, are gonna go in and we're gonna be open to our teens or our 7-year-old, or our five year. We, are gonna, oh, they've had whatever it is, and we are gonna go in and we're just gonna have conversation.

But I think that we. Going in to just have a conversation in the hope that we get our outcome. So with our teens, we're going in to just have a conversation and hope that our conversation then leads to them doing their homework or going to bed on time, or the 5-year-old putting the dramas on or, and that really isn't what PACE is about, is it?

Sharon: I think that's the tension, isn't it? Is that we, like you say, we want to be task focused and outcome orientated as our parents because we've got certain things that need to happen, but actually [00:38:00] pace is more about taking the time and helping the young person ex explore what they're thinking and feeling about a situation, validating it with them and for them, having empathy for their situation, and then moving them to think about what can they be doing about that.

And thinking about it together. So it's more of a collaborative kind of process. And it's, and it takes a lot more time. Yeah. Which is often the thing that trips us up as parents, because we're on timeframe because we need to get out the door and we need to do this. We need to go to bed because we're gonna be tired.

So we find it hard to keep our call and to keep it calm, and to give enough time to have those ful conversations. And also the important part about all this, when we're thinking about play and pondering play and therapy is about keeping things playful and light as much as possible. I think that's a really key part of trying to keep children outta shame.

Because when you are playful and light and things are joyful, that is [00:39:00] activating a different part of the brain to the shame, the part that is activated from children and shame really. So if you can keep things light touch. And joyful you're gonna be really helping that young person with their thinking.

Philippa: And I guess using empathy, 'cause we can use empathy, it's almost a bit like a superpower, isn't it? 'cause you can use it in so many different situations, so you can be put in a boundary and a consequence in place. So in none of this always. Suggesting that we just let our kids get on with it and that we don't, so we don't say, actually that wasn't okay, or, yes, you need to do your homework.

Or I guess there's a point where you pick your battles and in my view, some battles aren't worth having. I homework was one that I really never felt was a battle I wanted to have in my house. I wanted. To spend time with my kid and enjoy my kid and not be arguing about whether they had completed [00:40:00] their history homework or not.

I would prompt them, but for me, that was just a battle that I just wasn't gonna have. There was other things that were really important to me that those, and those are the boundaries and structures. So no point in using pace or any of this stuff. Are we saying you just let your kids get on with it and you can use empathy, can't you about even when you're putting a.

Consequence in place. So you know, you can say it's now time to switch off your tablet or your tally and you know you're gonna get a thing. So using empathy, you would do that maybe first and say, I know this is gonna be really frustrating, or you're gonna be a bit upset now. However, we are gonna switch our tablet.

We are gonna switch the tablet off. So holding. And does that then help to keep again, the amount of shame and keep that connection as far as possible? 

Sharon: Absolutely. I think what you are talking about there is prioritizing the [00:41:00] relationship above other sort of demands as well. And I think that is absolutely key with our young people because if you can keep your relationship in touch with them or connect with them, they're much more likely for a start to listen to you.

'cause as soon as they feel that rupture in that relationship, they feel like you're getting at them or you're telling them off and they're gonna start to escalate. It's gonna trigger their themselves into perhaps a sort of a fight or a flight kind of response. It's gonna be much harder to then.

Have them listen to what you want them to do and you'll end up in a conflict and a row. But by predicting I know this, I'm gonna ask you something really difficult. I'm gonna ask you, you need to turn your tablet off and then you know, it's gonna be really hard. And we do need you to get your sleep because otherwise can be tired in the morning.

You can try and do it in an empathic way to try and prevent that escalating. Yeah. And give them a bit of time to say, oh, [00:42:00] for God's sake mom, that I don't wanna do that now. And have some tolerance for that and not, then just jump down 'em, say, don't be cheeky or do as you're told.

Or those that we might want to do and we might want think would give a quicker outcome. But actually that normally just escalates stuff, doesn't it? The only people that we work with you wanna just be able to tolerate some of there. Some, the grumpiness about it because of course going to bed's, much more boring than carrying on playing their game with the mates.

Philippa: And I wonder sometimes, I used to use it about giving a choice about when we would have this conversation. So if I needed to talk about. School because maybe the homework's worked on, or I needed to talk about we need to go out at the weekend and I know you're not gonna want to do that.

Or I knew the conversation was gonna be a little bit difficult, then I would almost prepare that I use the empathy around. I need to give you some information, is gonna be a little tricky for you to hear. I need you to be able to [00:43:00] hear everything I've got to say before you respond. Can we do that now?

Or do you want to do it in half an hour? So I would boundary it. So it wasn't like, we are not gonna do it, but I would say, do you want to do it now or do you wanna have a snack and do it do it in half an hour. So there's also that processing time, because certainly as team, the processing is reduced.

Is that right? 

Sharon: I think you to bring up processing is a really good point Philippa because often I think we, we make a demand on a child and then we expect them to act immediately, but actually they do need time to understand what you've. Said to think about it, to have the response to it and then to be able to do it, don't they?

And all that can, it varies from young person to young person perhaps as well in what space they're in at the time as well. If they're in a really energetic, good mood, they might be able to respond much more quickly. But if they're actually in a really difficult place, they might need a lot more processing time as [00:44:00] well.

Absolutely. I think you've gotta be aware where your young person is at and give them some space. As well between being asked to do something and I really like that sort of technique that you're using there about. They're preparing them for the information we're gonna do that in a bit.

And then giving them a cho a choice about when they engage with that. I think. And 

Philippa: I guess that's the same for five year olds, isn't it? When we give lots of instructions, they can't process all that, can they? One instruction at a time. And then I think that also gives you the opportunity to praise. Rather than four instructions in one go and they only do two and then you don't notice the two they've done.

You tell them off for the four, they the two, they didn't. Yeah. Whereas if you do one at a time, you can give them four bits of praise, can't you? Which is really Richard, really nice, I think. 

Sharon: Yeah. Yeah. And it makes it doable. It makes 'em feel like they're not overwhelmed and that they can achieve this. And also they can see that they're doing as an ask, which actually most.[00:45:00] 

Do that. They wanna know that they're doing okay, don't they? 

Philippa: As we just wrap up, 'cause we could talk about this for forever. What would be, if you had to give parents, school teachers, people working with, what would be your three top tips? I know I'm putting you on the spot, but three times.

Yeah.

Sharon: I was the top tip is focus on your connection with your young person, so make sure that is in place. Make sure they feel liked by you. Make sure that you can enjoy something about them. Make sure that you have that connection because if you have that in place already, then anytime you need to put in a boundary or make a demand on them, it's going to withstand that rupture or that slight conflict much easier.

Yeah. So if you don't have that in place yet, then just forget everything else and just play with them, or do activities with [00:46:00] them, or get to know them get that in place first. Which, that's what I would say for one. And then I would say think carefully about trying not to induce any shame responses from them.

Yeah. So that is about giving them as much power and control as you can over interactions and being as respectful with them as you'd want them to be with you in some respects as well. I think sometimes we, we trip into. Treating children like children, expect them to do as we ask, just 'cause we're adults and birds for adults.

But some of our kids need a bit more help than that to understand what, why they're being asked to do something. And they need a bit more time to buy in to do that. I think it's about figuring out what your languages as being really careful around how you're asking people, children to do things.[00:47:00] 

Philippa: So I suppose my, tip. I'll do the last one then. So you've done those two, so the relationship, which is really important. The second one, I think you're right, is that kind of how we're asking what we are doing? 'cause we can be tentative, can't we? But still clear. And that would be my last one. Is know the difference between a question and a nego, a negotiation and an instruction, because we give instructions as questions.

And if you say to your kid, do you want to shower? That is a question. And if they say no. Then you have to abide by that. You've asked them a question, they've said no. So then you need to abide by it. If it is that you want them to have a shower, then I suppose building on your set. Your second point is you can be really clear about you are gonna have a shower.

You can give a little bit of. You know you're gonna have, you're gonna have a shower [00:48:00] tonight. Are you gonna have it now? Are you gonna have it later? Are you gonna have a shower or a bath or something? You can give a little bit of choice within it, but the overall responsibility is you, because I think often we ask questions and what we mean is an instruction, and then we get into conflict when our children answer the question.

And then when we ask questions and we really mean it, our kids can't answer and we're saying, answer me. But they don't know if this is a question or an instruction. And how anxiety provoking is that imagine going to your boss and they're asking your question and you're thinking, are you tricking me?

Are you tricking me? And if I say something, you are gonna shout at me. So I, that's what I would say is know the difference between a negotiation, which is a question. An instruction which you're not gonna negotiate on for any child, whether they're 18 months. 'cause [00:49:00] we think we're being nice, don't we?

Do you want to? Shall we actually, you don't mean shall we? You mean you are going to do it? 

Sharon: Yeah. Yeah, and that can just invoke feelings of frustration in the child, can't it? Because when you say, shall we, and you are making it nice, but they actually know what that really means is you're gonna make me do it.

And that can be really frustrating. It's much better to be clear, isn't it? To say, today you need to take a shower, so let's think about how you're gonna do it. And that's where come in as well. Okay, let's see. Do you want the Green Foy soap for this, or do you want the Blue Foy soap or it's, you can introduce fun things with it to help them get over perhaps a bump of, oh, I have to go and have a shower something like that.

Or you can if they're an older kid, you can say, I'll make sure you've got a hot chocolate ready when you get out, or something like that. And you can what they call it, bribery, or they call it rewarding positive behavior. 

Philippa: Take. See, I [00:50:00] think even like with a teenager, you can still race them up the stairs, can't you?

Yes. You can still say, I can get up there quicker than you, my legs along, and you can still do that kind of playfulness around that. Or or we're gonna ta your room today, let's see who can pick the most so odd socks up. You can still bring playfulness within those, but they are instructions, aren't they?

They are. This is what you're gonna do. It's not, oh, you're gonna tidy your room today. It's, you are going to tidy your room today. I'll help you. Let's see who can pick up the most odd socks. Let's see. And then don't go into the shame bit of look what's under your bed. And it's really hard as a parent because it is frustrating.

I know.

Yeah. Thank you so much Sharon. That has been such a great conversation that I'm sure we could have talked more and more about and hopefully you'll come back and add to this. So [00:51:00] thank you so much for your time. Yeah, thank you very much for having me. It's been really nice, talking with you 

Sharon: Philippa.