EP44 Finding your Inner Child with Play - A conversation with Greg

In this episode of 'Pondering Play and Therapy', host Philippa interviews Greg, an author and child advocate from 'Can I Go and Play Now?'. Greg talks about his journey from working in a scrap store to becoming a passionate advocate for play and autonomy in children. He shares his experiences and methods for helping teachers and adults connect with their inner child and incorporate more play into education. The conversation covers the importance of unstructured, imaginative play, the impact of political and educational policies on childhood, and the need to create more opportunities for free play. With a focus on the idea that play is an intrinsic part of who we are, Greg emphasises the importance of reconnecting with our sense of playfulness, both for personal well-being and for nurturing children's development.

Website: https://www.canigoandplaynow.com/

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Transcript

Play and Finding your Inner Child - An Interview with Greg

Philippa: [00:00:00] welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me Philippa. And this week my guest is Greg from Can I Go and Play Now? And Greg is an author and child advocate. He's passionate about play and autonomy for both children. And teaching staff. He really enjoys imagination, playing stories and works within a school setting to help us as adults find our inner child.

Which sounds super exciting. Greg. So thank you so much for being with us today. 

Greg: Not at all. It's lovely to have your company Philippa on up. I think Yeah, it's a study day. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it is really good to be here. Thank you for inviting me to come and and chat with you. 

Philippa: Oh, that's amazing. Have you always been interested in play or is it something that's developed over a lifetime?[00:01:00] 

Greg: Yeah professionally I, started my teaching career actually in key stage two. But before I became a teacher, I used to work in a scrap store. You have those up in the Midlands, I think. Don't you scrap stores where, it's, it was basically like a company that would go out and collect remnants, like card paper, plastics, bring them back to a warehouse, and then schools and settings could come and take those remnants and use them within their creative processes.

They're, all over the country. They're incredible. 

Speaker 3: Okay. And 

Greg: I ended up working with one of those before I became a teacher doing lots of different projects with local schools and PBIS and stuff. And as part of that, we went to Reggio Amelia out in Italy. And Immersed had a 10 day immersion in their kind of pedagogy, and I was really inspired by it.

And then when I became a teacher like I said, I was in key stage two. 

Philippa: So can you just say, because we get people who listen from [00:02:00] all over the world, what ages. Key stage two in the uk. Oh, of 

Greg: course. Yeah. So key stage two would be from seven year olds up to 11 year olds. So year three up to year six.

So I started my career there and then I was invited to go down into reception to go and work with the four and five year olds and never looked back. And it was there that I began to see that play was something absolutely incredible and I just went on an adventure into it. And I've never looked back.

It's been a wonderful adventure to have gone on. 

Philippa: Okay. And you wrote a book following that. Did you, do that while you were teaching or was that something that you, stopped teaching and then moved out, out to be an orphan? 

Greg: I wrote, yeah. No, I wrote it while I was teaching.

It almost killed me hair. Yes. Yeah, I used to have hair. No. Yeah, no, I wrote it while I was teaching. And. I, it was [00:03:00] a bit of a mold breaking book in a way because I mo most academic mo most books published by academic publishers tend to be quite research driven and da whereas can I go and play now with just me giving my opinion about education?

And they said that the publisher said, it's, lovely, but we don't think this will really sell because we imagine it will sell maybe 200 copies. That's what it was earmarked to do. And then the government. When, the book came out, the government released a document called Bold Beginnings, which was felt to many of us, quite anti childhood.

And my book was there almost as a reaction to that. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Greg: So it was almost coincidence and it just went and lots of universities started then having the book on their on their reading list. Then I was invited to write other books as well, so I've written another one called School in the Magic of Children, and then another one called Love [00:04:00] Letters to Play, and these 

Philippa: are books helping adults and guiding adults to think about actually when children play, why that's so important and maybe why it's important for us to connect with our own sense of play and playfulness.

Is that right? 

Greg: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. They're they're for adults and. Really it's, look, they all free really are paying to, to childhood, and to most importantly, to our own inner child. I believe that play is not what we do. I believe it's who we are. You cannot take it out of us. We are all programmed to play.

It's our, it's the most powerful way to discover, explore, not just learn about the world, but learn about yourself. 

Speaker 4: And 

Greg: so I'm a very strong advocate of that. And because I believe play is who we are, it never leaves us. Never leaves us. So that's why I believe in the eternal inner child. So I'm 53, but inside me I [00:05:00] have an a little child called Little Greg.

And when I play with children, it's little Greg that emerges. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Greg: And it's that reconnection, dialoguing with your own inner child that I talk a lot about to liberate adults to go and be with children. And go and play with them. 

Philippa: And that's something that Julie and I have talked about is that, and I know that my other, guests have talked about this kind of innate.

Innate playfulness that we are born with. So you born, you are born curious and that curious kind of turns into playfulness. I guess as babies we start to just look at our hands and our feet, aren't we? But that then you need an adult to engage with that though, don't you? To play.

And sometimes I suppose with children that I work [00:06:00] with, that playfulness hasn't been encouraged. Yeah. So they struggle to play. And I guess then we become adults that maybe have suppressed that, that part or have hasn't had it encouraged. What would that. 

Greg: I, would agree with that. And I think, very naturally we do play.

So I was reading the other day about, lots of people will probably know this already, but really when, young, when babies and very young children encounter the world, the first thing, let's say they encounter a to they encounter a toy. Their first thought is, what does this toy do? And that's what they explore.

The next step is, what can I do with the toy? That's the curiosity bit. That's the playful bit. So what can I bring from inside of myself to do with the toy? And then it goes on to the next step probably would be, what can I imagine this toy would do or [00:07:00] be? And that's the bit that I'm very fascinated by.

I, I'm hugely into the imagined world with young children. But I, yeah, I accept that there are some children that inverted commas don't know how to play, but I do believe as we gather around them as adults, if we can unlock our own playfulness, we are at least showing them what is possible.

Philippa: And that's 

Greg: a really important thing to show what is possible. 

Philippa: And I guess then chil my whole job is about helping children to. Have a different experience. So they may not have had that when they were babies or when they were toddlers, but now through play, they can experience something different and can trust that process.

Because I wonder if sometimes. Children and adults, we are in our head because that [00:08:00] feels safest. It's almost in the knowing, isn't it? And yes, and play is, in the being, is what I think. Yes. It's in our body, isn't it? We have to connect with something that. Is vulnerable because we have to not be in survival mode in order to be able to play.

And we are vulnerable in that position, aren't we? 

Greg: Yes absolutely. Absolutely. It's about that whole, again I, talk a lot about how play. Is a way of resetting our own nervous system. 

It's something that if we are in a state of chaos, if we can find those moments to bring the play out of us it can, slowly bring us, yeah, bring us back down in, into a calm.

But of course, we have to be able to bring ourselves outta this sort of, what I call chaos brain 

Speaker 3: to be able 

Greg: to do that. And many children. Unfortunately can be in survival mode a lot because they've not had that [00:09:00] nurturing adult that it's all the attachment theory stuff. But I do believe I strongly believe in play therapy and I believe that play therapy is also for the adult who's doing the play therapy.

As much as it's for the children, as is play. Children. When I play with children in school, equally, it's not just for the children, it's also for the teacher because all of us are carrying that in. A child that does want to explore and is curious and wants to communicate that curiosity to one another, create stuff, invent things, we all innately do have that some to a greater degree than others.

Philippa: Do you think that play in schools has changed? Because this is a conversation that I've had with kind of many guests, really about. Has play changed when you certainly in the education system, but I even think at home to, to be more cognitive as in [00:10:00] we'll play and there's a there's, a, goal at the end of it to teach you something to.

Give you a piece of knowledge rather than this imaginative free play. There's a difference, isn't it, between that structured play and free play. Yes. Have you seen a change in that over time? 

Greg: Yeah, and I think, yeah, absolutely. And there's also, I think there's also less time given over to that as well, so it's changed, but there's also, there feels like within a child's day, there's less capacity within it.

Speaker 3: For 

Greg: them to even experience that. There's many different reasons for that. Schools are under pressure to get outcomes, and that is an outcome that's driven by political dogma. And again, a lot of my work is, anti that political dogma. 'cause I believe in liberation from that.

Philippa: So can you explain a bit more about that? What, do you mean? What does that mean? 

Greg: So for example, [00:11:00] in, in, in England, children are from, almost from day one, they have to then sit through a program of synthetic phonics. Whether you are ready for that or an inverted comm is ready for that or not, it's subjected to you.

And at the end of that year you are, it's decided whether you have reached good level of development or not. But in the EYFS, which is what kind of predicates the the, early years. It talks about the unique child, and to my mind, you can't have a unique child and then have something called good level of development.

Those two do not go together. They, can't they're, taught logical. And I believe in the unique child you are who you are. Children are not on planet earth for the approval of adults. They absolutely are not. They are here to be themselves, and it's down to the adult to go in with the, to themselves, so their own inner child to realize that they have a value for who they are.

And together go on that [00:12:00] adventure. So you give children the skills, but I don't believe in the whole kind of testing, standardization of childhood. I, absolutely don't. I stand very firm against that. I accept it. I accept that it is in the world, but I do believe it is anti childhood. I. 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. And that creates this very structured environment where there is play, we have play times and break times.

But I guess the other thing that I notice as a practitioner, but also with some of the conversations I've had, is that if a child has been. Having a consequence, then it's those times that are removed from them, isn't it? Play times, break times, lunch times, or you have to stay in and complete your work.

You'll have to so it, it's not given the same value. 

Speaker 3: No. 

Philippa: As, maths or English or phonics or, whatever. Would that, do you think that's changed over time? 

Greg: I'd like to think [00:13:00] it had I'd like to think so. Whether it has fully, I don't know but those situations very much, it's actually less sounds strange to say.

It's less about the remover of play and more about creating within the child that they feel that they, have to do tasks for teachers and get their approval and that's when play becomes a reward. I am in inverted good, so therefore I get to play. And that, is a very powerful. Powerfully damaging thing to tell children.

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Greg: Because I am play, that's who I am. And now I've got to mask that to get your approval so that I can then go and play that. That is a very damaging thing to do to children. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Greg: Yeah. So, I hope it doesn't, I hope it doesn't go on play is not a reward. It absolutely is not. But only two. I guess it's 

Philippa: even things like fiddling, isn't [00:14:00] it?

That is play. It's, and how many times I know at school I was constantly told off of fiddling, but actually I learn better. When I am fiddling. Julie definitely does when we talk, she's always got an array of things on her desk that she's playing with. Really? Yeah. But you are told off for that, aren't you?

Yeah. When you are little. 

Speaker 4: Yes. 

Philippa: And we forget. As adults that actually we need that too. A piece of blue tack or a pen that we chew or a paper that you rip or that is play in a way, isn't it? 

Greg: Exactly. And the these attitudes, again, come from, so the attitude of you mustn't fiddle comes from.

The Psychoanalytic theory of transaction analysis, which kind of talks about in every, inside all of us, we have three ego states, the parent, the adult, and the child. I won't go into it, all of it, but one of the ego states [00:15:00] is the, parent ego state. And that's basically where it teaches us unfiltered messages.

So for example, a parent ego state might message might be buses always come late or if, someone overtakes you, you say they won't get there any quicker. Yeah. So these messages are given to children and they just take them on unfiltered and then repeat them when they're adults. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. And 

Greg: similarly, when we say to children, you mustn't fiddle, to me, that's an example of a parent ego state in the adult who's just repeating what they got told when they were little.

Just carrying it on, not thinking, does this child need to fiddle? Yeah. It's a bit like people say, you must be sitting cross-legged on the carpet. That is an example of an unfiltered parent ego state that's been given to the teacher and they're now just repeating it, unfiltered. 

It's really interesting.

Transactional is really interesting when you get into it, but it's that idea of the [00:16:00] unthinking, this that you just say it. Yeah. So like when you walk down the corridor, you have to walk in silence. That's just a parent ego state. That's been 'cause why It's like an Yeah, and like you have to do homework or there's a spelling test.

This is all the stuff that's where people, yeah, it's just. It's like a, it's just delivered to children. And then that of course goes to them. I must be still 'cause I have to have the, I have to my, the love of the adult is conditional on me sitting still. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. And 

Greg: now I'm in chaos Brain. 

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm 

Greg: now gonna fiddle even more. Whereas when I was teaching, I children could sit however they wanted. I didn't care. All I want you to do is listen when I speak and if I show you something, look how do you sit and where you sit. And teachers may disagree with that, I don't know. But for me. I knew my children, I knew what they needed and I loved them for who they were.

And they were not on planet Earth to approve for my approval to sit cross-legged. They absolutely were not. [00:17:00] 

Philippa: And I think you I think your thing that you were saying about we just have these expectations and I just remember, working with a, nursery with a little boy who'd. Who'd experienced high levels of IC violence and lots of being moved around because her mom, it was mom who was fleeing.

So he, this little boy had moved schools, he'd moved homes he'd, moved lots of things, lots of times, and he was really struggling at meal times and he was really struggling at. We can debate the fact that he was only three and a half. So play was actually what, is play when you're three and a half.

But one of the things was is he had some particular cause that he really liked. 

And the, they the idea was, is that he had to share. Now sharing is my biggest bug bear. I can't abide the fact that we tell children they have to share because I don't think they do. [00:18:00] We don't share our phones.

But I suppose that unconscious thing of he's got to share in these toys for everybody. So my question was to them. You've got other red and black toys. Red and black cars. Can he not have a little bag that he puts those in? And those are just for him. So when he walks in the door, he's got his own cars and he knows he's gonna have them.

'cause actually he's lost his belongings. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Philippa: Over and over again. And he's just really worried he's gonna lose those. Can't all the other children share all the other 500 cars in there? And he had the two on the road and it was almost like it was an alien. And they did it. And they, but it was, I suppose what I'm saying is it was that unconscious thing of No, we share, but once you have that different conversation, it was like, okay. We can try it. And, for him that was a big thing. And also he needed his costed before [00:19:00] his dinner because I get that he's worried about not having costed. Yep. And, often teachers will say, when you say things like that, yeah. But everybody will, and that after I will say. I don't think they will.

Why don't you try it once? 'cause I'm guessing most of those other kids know that they're gonna have the custard after their dinner and they're not worried about the cosd. 

Speaker 4: This 

Philippa: little boy's worried about the cosd, giving the custard first and then he'll eat his dinner. And he did. And that's, and but I suppose it's those, like you're saying, those messages of we have to have our food first and then, Agie say, actually, why do we have to do that?

Greg: Yes. And that's where part of my work comes in and where it's actually about the inner child of the adult who's saying, you can't eat your custard before. 'cause that's something within you that you are responding to. 

Maybe unconsciously of, oh, it's wrong to [00:20:00] eat your custard before. So it's not now a school rule.

It's you, your fear of an authority or your fear of getting it wrong or. And that's something that you have to address within yourself. 'cause actually that for me, that child eating their custard before they've eaten their mane or what have you, that's now bringing their chaos brain now into a calm brain.

Yeah. And you can't learn if you're not in calm brain. You can't, it's impossible. You can sit children down and shove an hour of phonics down their throats. But if they are in chaos, brain, nothing's going in Nothing. Yeah, absolutely nothing. Yeah. They're worrying 

Philippa: about am I gonna get the costed?

Greg: Yep. 

Philippa: They're not gonna learn anything, are they? But if they know they're gonna get the costed first, it might open them up for a little, or the the car or whatever. 

Greg: And, that's where with these kinds of children, I. They are, he all children are here. That we [00:21:00] learned from them.

But what I found was in my career, children who, let's say, hadn't had the greatest childhood. 'cause it is also a privilege to have a childhood. Yeah. Because I've met many children for whom, you know, terrible things have been done to them. That it's that case of I have to learn from you.

I can't just bring this blanket. This is what we do. This is my expectation. I've got to meet you and say, who are you? What is it that drives you? What is it that drives me? How can these, yeah how, can they, how can we meet together? I'm hugely into companionship with children. Hugely. I never really saw myself as a teacher.

Yes, I'm teaching you, but I'm, you don't need a teacher. You need a companion. All children do. That's what they want. 

Speaker 4: They want 

Greg: time together with loving adults. That's what they want. Along the way. I'm gonna teach you a ton of stuff and you are gonna teach me. It's a very much like back and forth. [00:22:00] 

Yeah, 

Play children's play. Teachers are so much, not just about the children, but about me and who I am. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Greg: It's a bit like when adults come into a, let's say they come into a nursery and there's. There's paper on the floor and adults will get very but it's messy, da And that's something within them, their own inner child that's now frightened. Because once upon a time they were told, you mustn't make a mess because if you are mess, you are unholy, or you're dirty, or you are. Yeah. Do you see what I mean? So it just passes that message onto the children without taking that moment to go, who is it that's speaking here?

Is it my frightened inner child? Or is it my adult who is in dialogue with my inner child, worked that through and now I know it's okay for children to, along the way, have paper on the floor. It's okay. It really do. You know what? See where I'm going with that? It's just about that internal work that I think, 

Philippa: yeah, 

Greg: I [00:23:00] think we need to do more of.

Philippa: Yeah. And it's our own. Yeah. Like you say stories and 

Greg: Yeah. The life switch 

Philippa: that are inside, aren't they? And how, what about for older children? So do this is, we are talking about little ones. Yeah. 

Does this translate when you're thinking about middle aged childhood and into teens? 

Greg: Yep.

Absolutely. In my work. It might sound strange. I do talk about play a lot, but I talk more about what play is. I extrapolate what it is. So for example, one of the things that play is, invention. So children are constantly, when they're playing, inventing stuff and they're creating stuff, and I, me personally, I believe that when you create, you are actually bringing something out of your soul into the world.

That's what you're doing. So if you draw a picture, it's not just a picture of a dog, it's actually you've brought something out of you, down your arm and in onto the page. [00:24:00] 

Speaker 3: Which is 

Greg: why children don't like it. If you, not that you would do this, but if you went and ripped their, Yeah.

Or threw it up, it's because they have put themselves in that in there. So I'm hugely into giving children open-ended possibilities for creativity. Which is why such an advocate of loose parts play and junk modeling, et cetera. And I talk very much about childhood. 

And when does childhood end?

It does not end at five, does not end at five. So if that's the case, childhood still needs open-ended creativity at the age of 11. It absolutely does. It's not about play, it's about open-ended creativity. So how are the adults giving that to children authentically? 

Speaker 3: Not 

Greg: just, here's your table, here's your task.

Complete it for the teacher so that they can mark it, and now you've got back into that cycle of approval. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Greg: I write for your approval. I do maths for your approval. How can we, it's an [00:25:00] open-ended question by the way. How can we be offer more childhood to children? 

Philippa: And would you say that in high schools as well, that bringing that into, high schools to charter, doesn't it, having that, because I guess we get art and we get pe, physical education in, the uk Yeah.

And those would be classed as their play, wouldn't they? But would you think it needs to be more than that? 

Greg: I do. I absolutely do. Because who's art? 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Greg: Whose art is it? It's lovely. Teach children skills. Absolutely. We want to do that. Yeah. And we want 'em to feel alive in the world and understand the creative world that lives all around us.

And I'm sure I know many, schools do it. They do give children am ample opportunities. I still think we need to give them more, 

Philippa: need more. But I suppose in some ways those, are then judged, aren't they? Your artist judged your course. Course DT is judged. Your pe we were even doing exams in [00:26:00] PE and they're judged, aren't they?

And I suppose what you are talking about is more of that. Just, create something that, yeah, 

Greg: just childhood. 

Philippa: Just for you. 'cause even drama has judged you, you're getting a, you're passing an exam in it, aren't you? Yeah. When you are at high school. 

Greg: And again, all these things are the, teachers are under a massive pressure.

Yes, of course. They are. Massive, pressure. And it's not saying that it's easy to do, it really isn't. 'cause a curriculum is a curriculum, but along the way, especially in primary school especially, and many, do, but we need more that give children abundant opportunities to be who they are.

Because that's the most important thing you, to my mind. You have one childhood and it stays with you for your entire life. 

Speaker 3: And 

Greg: all of the messages that you get given as a child stay with you for your lifetime. And it's very hard to undo [00:27:00] them as an adult. 

Speaker 3: Very 

Greg: hard, and it can lead to a lot of damage because you were told certain things about yourself, which again is why I, do so much talking about the inner child.

Because it's the, we often think about the inner child as the adult, but actually the inner child is also within every single 4-year-old. 

Speaker 3: It's 

Greg: in there. So how are we nurturing? How are we protecting, how are we making sure that children know that they are unconditionally loved? And that's my goal really in all my work, is how do children know?

So I don't have the answer for that. Only the adult in the room does. How do I make my 30 children feel like they're unconditionally loved? That's on me to, make sure that they are, whatever that looks like. 

Philippa: And you go into schools, do you, and work with the teachers and the I do teaching TAs and that.

And what does that look like? What, how are you, what do you do to support them? [00:28:00] 

Greg: I go in with a range of toolkits that I've created, that I used in my own practice. I, go and play with children, show them the kinds of stuff that I do, how I embrace the imagined world.

I've written lots of stories to share with children. I have different characters that that children can interact with as well. But primarily it's very much about being with adults and showing them that it's okay. It's okay to play. 

Speaker 3: Because 

Greg: that's one of the biggest things that you do have permission to play and that you actually do need to play.

Even though you are I'm 53, I still need to play whatever that looks like. I, still need to have it, I still need to have that wonder. Leaps of imagination, creativity connection. And it's no different now. 'cause I still have that childhood bringing bring me, bringing inside of me. 

Speaker 3: [00:29:00] Yeah.

Yeah. You. 

Greg: The teacher's no different. So that's what I do. It's about how to make sure that youi still are in inver teaching, but we are doing it in a way through play so that children know that they are accepted and loved for who they are, not the other way round. 

Philippa: And how would that be different then than what would be different about that?

Greg: A lot of my stuff is around through being with children. It's about showing them the joy say of Mark making the joy of mathematics. So rather than it being done through schemes, it's actually, as I'm interacting and being with children, I am sharing skills with them and they are sharing skills with me.

They're still moments of direct teaching, but they're much short, very short, sharp moments of teaching, very much pinpoint teaching to the unique children. So a lot of education's done through schemes. Schemes have [00:30:00] never met those unique, so what does that 

Philippa: mean? I'm not a teacher. Oh so, a scheme 

Greg: would be where someone externally writes a program for the teacher to deliver to the children, and the teacher then follows that program.

Speaker 3: Yeah. But the 

Greg: writer of the scheme has never met those 30 unique children. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Greg: So already we're doing education to children and we're also. Disconnecting the adult from their own creativity because they're just now in delivery mode. 

Yeah, So 

mine is much more about put the scheme down and be who you are and share the joy of who you are with the skills with your children, and be liberated.

So you'd still 

Philippa: be, you'd still be teaching Yeah. Whatever it is the you two times table or whatever. But you would rather than do it through the the way that most other primary schools are doing it because [00:31:00] they've got this, book that says, this is how you do it. You'd think about, actually for my class.

We could interweave it with this kind of play Absolutely. Or this kind of creativity. And so I'm still gonna teach you two times table. Yeah. But in a way that fits with me because I've developed it as the teacher And you, because I know you as my class. '

Greg: cause I know you. Yeah. And I would still teach the time.

I would still do that direct teaching of the times te I would still do that bit. But the, exploration of it. Would be done in a much more playful, creative, collaborative way, rather than all the children just doing a task for me. 

Yeah. Which is, yeah 

Because again, it might sound controversial to some, I don't know, but me, personally, I don't believe children are here for the approval of adults.

Yeah. They're 

absolutely not. Yeah. They're here to be loved, to be nurtured, and again many, schools and teachers do that. Yeah. [00:32:00] But I do believe we need to do it even more because as a society we've become disconnected. From one another and we, and we're crying out for, we are absolutely crying out for more play, not less.

And you'll know that with your own with your own role. 

Philippa: Absolutely. And I think the opportunities for play is so Les aren't they, play, Nation. There's one in, kind of England, Scotland, Wales. Yeah. They're really trying to drive that. We have. Spaces that are designed for play that are free play because lots of our play now is very structured, isn't it?

Yeah. Children go to dance, they go to swimming classes, they go to piano lessons they go, and do a lot of activities, but. They the free play that kind of just being in a space and creating something from the space, it is a lot less [00:33:00] and there's a lot less space. There is, I, again, I'm in my early fifties and I just remember going out and finding sticks and making bows for being rubbing hard and, just creating, using that imagination.

Those have gone haven't they? Or, reduced? 

Greg: They've reduced. There's an argument that we're losing the art of we're losing the art of being bored. 

Philippa: Yes. 

Greg: And really through boredom. Comes creativity. So when you're talking about going out and finding a stick, and it being Robin, Hood or whoever it's that thing of at some point before maybe you didn't know what to do, you dug inside of yourself and went I've got a great idea.

I'll do this. And again, that's one of the re one of the things I, talk a lot about, particularly in schools. Schools are under pressure. There's a kind of a culture where children have to be proving that they're learning all the time and proving that they're always doing something all the time.

And there's, very [00:34:00] little space given to what I call loafing. Yeah. So I do believe children need to loaf and come up with ideas, and it's not just when an adult walks in every single, they talk about being on task. What does that mean? Does that again, it's another kind of parent ego state of being on task, but actually it's healthy for children to not know what to do.

And to take a moment to dig inside of themselves and go, oh, do you know what? I found three stones on the floor. I've got a great idea. I'm gonna make a game up with them. But if we are too quick to go Yeah. To, intercede, that game gets lost. And I do talk a lot about, it's the adults that need to engage their curiosity, not children.

Children do need to, but more emphasis needs to be on adults. Switching on their curiosity, what is the puzzle that I see before me? What are children showing me? 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess then [00:35:00] that helps us to explore a little bit more about who we are then, doesn't it? And what we absolutely.

And what we are good at. Yeah. Because we're all gonna be good at different things. And I I do a therapy called the Play. And often what I'll what I'll talk with parents about is this is a space for your. Little person to practice with me. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Philippa: Because then they can go out into the big world and do it and and that's about relationships. We're practicing relationships, but I guess in play itself, we are practicing and figuring out lots of other things, aren't we? And some things we're gonna be really great at you might be really good at football but you're not very good at drawing hopscotch on on the ground.

And we find our strengths that way, don't we? 

Greg: Yes. And I Absolutely. And I, 'cause I talked about play being invention. There's two types of invention going on when we play [00:36:00] what we invent externally. Yeah. So if I build a tower, I've invented a tower, but I'm also inventing myself my own, what I call self architecture.

All the 

time you are self inventing. Who am I? Who am I in relation to this person? Who am I in relation to those people over there? Who am I in relation to outside, inside this space, but also who am I in relation to myself? 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Greg: What confidence do I feel when I go into this space? And again, that's why I'm so passionate about the adult UN is what I call the great unlocking, unlocking them their inner child and going and being this companion with childhood.

Because they, children want our companionship and they, want to know that they're safe, accepted, and, loved. When we have those conditions now, good stuff can happen. 

Philippa: And I guess when you are doing that through play and then you are getting it's that back and forth serve in [00:37:00] return, aren't you?

You are. You are co-creating with another person, whether it's with an adult, whether it's with a peer, whether it's with an older child. You are co-creating something. So you are learning a lot of life skills. Yeah. And you are also learning to fail. And retry, which I think we lose. We've lost a lot of failure really?

For kids. Yes. In, a way that's safe for them to do it to, fail because things are very structured or lots of things are done on an app or a game where you get all that instant gratification rather than thinking, okay, we've put these two things down for a, goalpost, but the wind keeps blowing it away.

Yep. What, how are we gonna fix this? And it's that. And then you fix it and it's oh, we've know and that feeling of togetherness to create these things and you sold you being the key piece that solves it. [00:38:00] Is really great. And when you are not the key piece, being able to celebrate somebody else's success.

Yes. Because that we need both, don't we? We need to be able to have our success celebrated and also to be able to celebrate other people's success. And yes, I think play is a very safe way to do that. 

Greg: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And, it's that thing of again, I talk a lot about play. Play is a question mark.

That's what it is. Play is, al is a, is almost like in a constant flow of seeking the answer. 

Yeah. Whereas the adult world, as I call them. The, so the adult world are the adults that have congealed themselves against childhood. They, it's all about the answer, get the right answer in the quickest amount of time so that I can move you forward.

'cause there's a curriculum coming here, Whereas childhood is not like that. Childhood on the whole, is this rolling question mark? It wants to take its time 'cause it wants to [00:39:00] explore. 'cause actually in, You were said with that example of the goalpost. In doing that, I might also uncover a different way of making the goalpost next time.

But if the adult is just get the answer as quickly as possible because you need my approval, even that's being eroded as well. 

Yeah. And we have to make time for play. We have to. It's not a choice. It's not a choice. It's again, it's like particularly with in the world of 4, 5, 6, and seven year olds.

We really do need to, turn up the dial of play because I, unfortunately, we are going to repay whirlwind if we don't more, you'll see it in your own role, Philip. It won't you. More and more, children are play deficient. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Yeah. It's yeah. It's, Yeah, it's really sad. 'cause I think also as a parent and as an adult, you miss out.

Yeah. If you don't have that play, [00:40:00] there's something delightful, isn't there? Yeah. And I guess that's what you're saying is you're connecting to your inner child, but there's just such a delight in just being is That's what I think. Yes. It's just being and not it's not a knowing. We don't know what's gonna happen.

We are just being in this moment with these delightful little people. Yeah. And we are just enjoying our time together, however long that time is, whether it's 10 minutes or an hour or a whole afternoon. And we miss that when we've got all this structuredness to life, haven't we or Yeah. We're so busy.

Just as we wrap up, what? Just my, on that, what hope do you have is, are you seeing that schools are taking this on board? Are you seeing that they're wanting to do this more? 

Greg: Do you know what? There is hope There is, and I think that's because there like I've said, there's lot, lots of adults are under [00:41:00] pressure, but there is a growing movement, maybe small at the moment, but there is a growing movement of educators who know that play is right for children.

There is also a growing number of head teachers who are also recognizing that something needs to shift and they are doing that internal work again, to come away from the unfiltered parental parent ego messages of this is what school should be, and they're disconnecting from that and saying, but what about my unique children?

There's much higher need. Society with children a much higher need and we cannot just keep repeating more and more of here's the pressure to learn from my, for my approval, that is gonna end very badly. So there is, I think people are awakening to this idea that things need to change.

But to my mind, the one thing where the hope does lie is actually in the children. 'cause [00:42:00] they are going to force this change. Yeah. 'Cause they're not 

going to inverted commas fit. No matter what education policy people want them to do, they are not going to, they're human game. And we can see that, can't we?

Philippa: Yeah. Because the cost of providing special education provisions. 

Speaker 3: Yep. And. 

Philippa: Is exponentially increasing and I just think then that must tell you that if you are providing special education provision, maybe that is the provision kids need. 

Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely. Do you know what I mean? That they need 

Philippa: something that is not, this.

So we can see that it's just, there is this shift that actually mainstream is meeting the needs of less and less. Children and young people, 

Greg: no. And again, that's not that's not the school's fault necessarily. Absolutely not. It's really not. They're doing I've worked in many schools that are doing everything they can and that they have very well-meaning loving [00:43:00] adults who are just doing a fantastic job, but.

It can't continue, 'cause there's going to be more and more So actually something does need to change. It really does. And that is about societal change too. And I do, I do have hope. Absolutely. 'cause there's no hope. What is that? I would but there is hope.

Absolutely. There's some brilliant teachers out there and brilliant child minders, fantastic people working, pbis, people like yourselves who are all connected. And we all want, we all know, don't we? We all want the same thing. We want this an abundant childhood for every single child.

And I do believe along the way it might sound a bit of a pipe dream, but I do believe that can happen. Absolutely. Yeah, I do. And even children, those you know, again, the children that might say that carry great trauma play is play, is the healing. It absolutely is. And I do [00:44:00] believe play is a healing for society.

But maybe that's too hippie for someone. No, but I, do believe it is. Everyone needs play therapy. Philippa. There you go. Look, they do. They do. They do. Yeah. 

Philippa: But I think play gives you the opportunity to connect, doesn't it? Yes. It absolutely It gives you the opportunity to explore. Yeah. And it gives you the opportunity to be your be.

Your authentic self in many ways without having to mask. Yes, absolutely. When we allow it to to, to, free flow when we're not putting, put into a box. And I agree. I work with lots of schools and there are some absolutely amazing teachers and TAs. There are. Who are trying, it's so many ways to filter in play and Yeah.

To support the, development of the children that they're working with. And 

Greg: absolutely we need more of them. So if you're out, if you're out there watching [00:45:00] this playing and, advocating for childhood, just keep the message to end is keep playing, keep advocating, because if you don't do it then no one else is.

So hopefully that's a good way to end Philippa. Absolutely. Nice rallying call around the flag of play. But yeah, that's what We need We need more play, not less of it. 

Philippa: Perfect. Yeah, that is a great way. I will put a link in the, description of the podcast to your website. 

Greg: Thank you. 

Philippa: So that people can, when they want to find out more about you and what you are doing, they can just click on the link.

Okay. So thank you. Thank you very much, Greg.