EP46 Parenting the Child in Front of You; A Conversation with Dr Vanessa La pointe

Parenting Insights with Dr. Vanessa Lapont

Join Philippa in this illuminating episode of 'Pondering Play and Therapy' as she sits down with Dr Vanessa Lapointe, a seasoned psychology expert turned global parenting advocate. With over 20 years of experience, Dr Lapointe shares her invaluable insights on parenting from a developmental perspective. They delve into the importance of focusing on the child in front of you, understanding the realities of child development, and building lasting connections. Learn about practical strategies for managing behaviours, fostering generosity, and ensuring that parenting is driven by empathy and understanding. This episode is packed with real-world advice and wisdom for parents, caregivers, and anyone working with children.

www.drvanessalapointe.com

Dr Vanessa Lapointe | Facebook

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:44 Parenting the Child in Front of You
01:45 Understanding Child Development
04:01 The Importance of Connection
05:35 Developmental Stages and Their Purposes
06:28 Neuropsychology and Emotional Regulation
10:55 Boundaries and Empathy in Parenting
15:40 The Concept of Sharing
20:11 Misbehavior as Communication
25:57 The Importance of Staying Connected
26:30 Handling Difficult Situations with Compassion
27:26 Setting Boundaries and Being Compassionate
28:27 Managing Expectations and Emotions
32:22 Building Micro and Macro Connections
40:11 The Role of Generosity in Parenting
45:35 Final Thoughts and Resources

Pondering Play and Therapy | Instagram, Facebook, | Linktree

Transcript

EP46 Parenting the Child in Front of You: A Conversation with Dr. Vanessa

Philippa: [00:00:00] welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me Philippa. And this week my guest is Dr. Vanessa Lapointe, and she is a parenting educator best selling author and international speaker. She transitioned from practicing psychology to global parenting advocate. With a psychology doctorate. With over 20 years of experience, she now leads the North Star developmental Clinic supporting families and helping adults view the world through the eyes of children. So welcome, Dr. Vanessa. Thank you so much for coming onto our podcast. 

Dr Vanessa: Such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. 

Philippa: Oh, that's great.

So one of the reasons that I wanted you to, to come on and to chat with you is that you've got some great clips out on YouTube and Facebook, and I often use them when we're doing parenting. [00:01:00] Um. Courses with, um, adopters, foster carers, birth families, and one of them in particular that I feel kind of hit home for me was one where you are talking about parenting the child in front of you, not parenting, kind of the adult or the teenager you want them to become.

And I think as parents we often fall into the trap of kind of saying, please or, uh, you know, uh. Expecting them to be more than they are at the moment thinking about this is, this is what we want for you in the future, but we have to guide them there. So, I dunno if you could explain a little bit more about that.

Dr Vanessa: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Development is a real thing, and I feel like that concept has gotten lost in the hilter skelter, results oriented, quick fix culture that we're raising children in today. We think about, you [00:02:00] know, we want them to grow up to be adults who are emotionally regulated, or we want them to grow up to be adults who are kind and generous, or whatever the outcome might be, and we think that we need to.

Be seeing some version of that in our 3-year-old or in our 13-year-old, we lose sight of the fact that what it looks like when they're 37 is gonna be very different. Mm-hmm. To what it looks like at three years old or at 13 years old. And. Really what needs to happen is that we need to align our expectations of the child in front of us with two things, the realities of child development, but also the realities of that child's path because our children.

Every child comes into the world born under their own star, and they have their own constitution, their own temperament, their own experiences. You've, you've mentioned, um, you know, foster parents and adopters and, and so that child is already, by [00:03:00] definition coming to them with a, with a break in the bond, an attachment rupture in their history.

And so we have to take all of those pieces into account. Blend them in with the realities of what child development is, and then be realistic. Put the bar where children can jump. Don't put it way up here where they're tripping over it all the time and become disillusioned and kind of disenchanted with the idea of becoming, because we make it so difficult for them.

Philippa: I suppose I wonder that parents worry that their children aren't going to be seen as, you know, as delightful and as amazing that they know they are. If they're not polite or if they have a temper tantrum in Sainsbury's or, you know, they're, they're slamming the doors and are being rude as a teenager, I guess parents worry that they're not gonna be calm.

The adults that they want, that they, I guess, know that they can be. [00:04:00] 

Dr Vanessa: Yes. And you know, when we're in the future, we sit in fear. With those kinds of thoughts and those kinds of thoughts, then take us away from being present right now and being able to bear witness to our children and to see and hear them and give the experience, uh, of, of being listened to and being understood and, and the experience of us carrying them inside our hearts and adjusting the way that we respond because we carry them inside our hearts.

If we can really make our peace with the idea that we are not here. To serve the world around us. I'm not in service of that judgey, mcj, rson parent in the lineup behind me at the grocery store. I'm like, I don't even know them. Why do I care what they think about me? And why do I care what they think about my child?

I'm here in the service of my child and I promise you if you shall up wholly. Said to be in service to your child to [00:05:00] really understand the truth of child development and to be connection focused in all things when it comes to how you're raising your child, you will not have to worry for even five seconds what it's gonna look like when they're 37 years old.

They are gonna be fabulous, and they will grow into the fullest extent of what nature intended for them because you cleared the path to make that happen. So you are not here. To serve all those people who be judging. You're just here for that child. 

Philippa: That's so, so do I guess often Julie and I talk about.

You know that there, there are these developmental stages and each of them serve a purpose. So, you know, having a temper tantrum may be seen, seen as negative, but actually it's got a purpose for that young person or that that toddler and the slamming of the doors of a teenager, it's got a purpose and, and all those sorts of things would, would you agree with that?

Dr Vanessa: [00:06:00] Not only do they have a purpose, they're essential. You can't actually develop the capacity to adapt, which is the precursor to becoming resilient. Uh, and it's very much a part of how we become capable of self-regulating our emotions and our impulses and all those things from the inside. You can't develop that skill if you don't have opportunity to enter into circumstances and situations that will have you flexing that muscle.

And so there's this rule in neuropsychology. Um. Um, called HEBs law. Neurons that fire together wire together. So your child is having a tantrum, they're melting down, their nervous system is going what? Overtime, right? And then you step in and you provide a calm, maybe firm presence. So it doesn't mean we're just letting them get away with whatever, but we, it does mean that how we show up as firm, we show up equally, intensely as kind, equally, [00:07:00] intensely as compassionate.

Equally, intensely. As I see you, and I hear you, and I get you, and I love you. Alongside the no or whatever it is. Mm-hmm. And when we can do that over and over and over again, I don't know, like if you have a 2-year-old, you're gonna do that 67 times a day. If you have a 5-year-old, probably 25 times a day, if you have a 15-year-old, you're back to 67 times a day.

Like you're gonna do it tens of thousands of times with them. And we need them to. Meltdown and fire up so that they then get the experience on the other hand of coming back to that restful baseline. If they don't get practice at that, then they're gonna be in trouble when they become adults. And so every time your child has a tantrum, every time they have a meltdown, every time they lash back at you, and then you hold presence and you provide that co-regulatory influence, you like pat yourself on the back.

You can be like High five kid well done on the tantrum. That's. So good. We just grew another little bit of your brain. [00:08:00] 

Philippa: That's a really lovely way of looking at it, isn't it? Because often parents will feel, you know, oh my gosh. Again, it's been a really hard day and all I've done is kind of manage these big crying things and they don't listen to anything I say, and, and they're not eating their dinner.

They're only one kind of Cheerios and, and, and all those sorts of things. All those are just part of that development process. Yeah, and, and the same with the teenagers who kind of almost revert back to that toddler, toddler stage. You know, that brain rebooting is I, I guess going on there as well.

Dr Vanessa: Absolutely. And when you can, you know, Dan Siegel wrote this wonderful book about our teens called Brainstorm, and if you think about what is actually happening inside that adolescent brain, it, I mean, it's almost like it's inverting itself. There's so much restructuring playing out and connected to that.

A [00:09:00] lot of chewing on very big picture ideas where, you know, you're 15 and having an existential crisis and you actually don't even have the wiring to cope with. How do you regulate around that? So of course they become reactive and slam their doors and retreat to their bedrooms for months on end because that's part of what they need to do to be able to, um.

Navigate and settle themselves in the face of this whew, extraordinary period of development. It takes a lot out of them. 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. And they will, if we are that persistent, consistent, you know, showing up, like you say, connecting with them, then that will help them eventually grow into adults that can manage their big feelings.

Absolutely. They may need support from a partner or a friend, but they'll know that won't they, without kind of, you know, exploding in, [00:10:00] in their workplace and calling their boss all names under the sun like they maybe did to you when they were 14. 

Dr Vanessa: Exactly. In fact, them doing that at 14. And you responding in firm, but kind and compassionate ways is what is going to pave the path for them to become that adult who doesn't have an implosion in the office.

And so we really want to just lean into all of that and trust that the longer term outcomes, when we are connection focused in the way that we raise our young, are always going to be on the positive side. Mm. And there's a lot of data to. Support that when you care for your child in a relationally centric way, you actually are buffering them against the development of mental health issues down the road, including anxiety and depression and other mood based kinds of disorders.

And so we like, why would we not? 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. So when you say relationally based, that means being alongside them. It [00:11:00] doesn't, we, uh, I suppose I wonder what your thought is about We don't always have to fix it, do we? Or solve it or rescue them. But we can be alongside kind of supporting the feeling that goes with what's going on.

Dr Vanessa: It's not about not being boundaried, and in fact, I would suggest that relationally centered parenting, you are very boundaried. You have, um, like a robust set of expectations and norms and standards that are reasonably and realistically aligned with the developmental needs of your child. Also take into account their temperament.

And when you are able to do that and be developmentalist in approach rather than behaviorist in approach, then that's what, um, has you becoming relationally focused. It isn't about making it all better. It isn't about turning your no into a yes. So everybody can just be happy. It's about, [00:12:00] um, holding the boundary.

Doing it with a really big and compassionate presence, um, so that our children get to understand that that's, that they're worthy, that the world is a safe place for them to be in, and that they can just, just be released to the developmental process rather than having to fight against all of this stuff happening in the relationship.

Philippa: So I'm just thinking for parents listening to this, that, or, or, or I guess anybody really, but that might be something around, you know, actually this is the boundary. You, it's not acceptable. You're not going, you, you can't go out or you, you're not having that cookie. But actually I get that this is really hard for you, so you can hold the boundary.

But provide the empathy for it. Would, would that be right? 

Dr Vanessa: Yeah. And I often will like, use this sentence starter. No, do, do, do. So fill in the blank, whatever you're saying no to. And I know, [00:13:00] do, do, do. Fill in the blank, the empathy part. So no, we will not be having a cookie before dinner. I know that's not the answer you wanted.

Those look really yummy, don't they? So it's like I say the no, and then I'm like, and I see you kiddo. Like, that's hard. And if I were you, I would've wanted a yes too. I get you're frustrated. 

Philippa: Yeah. Like that. Yeah. Yeah. And that helps to maintain the connection of the parenting while give, giving them kind of the, the structure and the expectation of what's going on.

Because I wonder if. If there's always a yes or there's always a no or the empathy's not there actually, if children maybe don't always know what's going on in the world or know what's expected of them and that can raise anxiety. I I, I'm guessing. Yeah. 

Dr Vanessa: Yes. And the challenge is like our children are looking, if you can think about us as as like being a steady backbone and our [00:14:00] children just get to rest, they get to rest into our presence, they get to rest into our leadership, they get to rest into our guidance.

But if we're being too harsh. Too firm. Um, then they don't wanna lean in, right? Like if somebody's always shouting at you or being really firm with you, with not enough kind, not enough compassionate, not enough heart, they're not leaning in. They're like, woo, they're trying to get away. Mm. Right? Mm-hmm. Now look at this.

When they're leaning in and I say, okay, we're gonna go this way. They just come with me and, and the lean in. It's a figurative stance. Of course. Yeah. But the connection is what allows us to guide them if we're, if we're too harsh, too firm, they don't wanna lean in because they don't experience us actually as being firm.

They experience us as being mean. On the other hand, if you are too, like if you're overly permissive and it everything's a yes, then you're, it's like your child goes to lean into you, but you're like amoebic, like you're, you're like a jellyfish. You have no backbone. So they go to lean in and they'll [00:15:00] just fall.

Hmm. 

And then again, they don't lean in. They're over here now because we haven't provided that, um, environment or that context that makes it easy for them to take our lead. Mm-hmm. And so that's the whole idea. We want our children to be at rest. We wanna make it easy for them to take our lead, which means we are in charge.

We are setting the rules and the norms and the boundaries and the expectations, and we are making. Easy for them to fall into wine and do our bidding. 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah, that that sounds one of the other things, certainly for me is a big, big thing is sharing. Mm-hmm. I really have a big thing about, actually we shouldn't be asking our kids to share.

They can have a long turn. They can, you know, what is your thoughts about sharing? 

Dr Vanessa: Oh, I.[00:16:00] 

Sharing's the whole thing. And I don't know why people just have this like whole hyper focus on sharing. And here's the goods. When your child is young, like under the age of five, they cannot share like they, it's not that they will not share, they cannot share. And the reason for that is the wiring required for sharing is a frontal lobe.

Function. The frontal lobe is the last part of the brain that really starts to kind of come online, and it hasn't really come online with any ferocity in terms of how you would be able to hold onto this skill until at least age five. And even then, it's only gonna be operational when the emotions are low level.

So I'm not super heightened. It's not my favorite toy. All of those things, and whenever I talk about that online, on social media, I always just get all this backlash. Well, I have a 4-year-old, like 900 mom, I have a 4-year-old and, and they share just fine. Your 4-year-old is not sharing. Your 4-year-old doesn't care.

[00:17:00] Your four year old's probably a very easygoing kid or doesn't have, you know, too much attachment to that particular toy. And they're quite delighted for everybody to have a go because it just doesn't get them the same way, but put an intense and sensitive child in that same spot, they're not sharing.

Philippa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Dr Vanessa: Because they can't. Um, so that's point number one. Point number two, I'm 50 years old. And do you know I have like favorite pairs of shoes that I would never let anybody borrow. Not my best girlfriend, not my sister's, nobody. 'cause they're my shoes and they're my favorites and I'm declaring like sovereignty over those shoes.

So I think also, wouldn't it be lovely that we could just be human beings and extend that same experience and right to our children around some of the things that might be very dear and important to them. 

Philippa: I, that's my point. You know what I. If you are gonna ask your kid to share, [00:18:00] then what I want you to do is when you ask your kid to share, I want you to pass your phone, unlock it, and pass it to a person to the left of you and let them go and play on your apps or, because we wouldn and would we, there's no way people are sharing their phone on, on the airplane going on holiday.

It really, yeah, I am. So, share of me is a big. Big thing because I think even as a teenager they might know, this is just my view, that they might know the principle of sharing that's been drilled in, that you share, but you really don't want to, if it's your, you know, if it's your switch or your favorite, you know, board game or whatever it is, or you, you don't wanna share, do you, like you say, I don't wanna share, I just.

Dr Vanessa: Yeah, and I don't think that that actually works well for the other child either. Like if other children are like, everybody must share all of their things, then we actually are robbing those [00:19:00] children of the opportunity to engage with an experience of adaptation IE to accept something that did not go the way that you wanted it to go and to come up with a new solution.

What a wonderful. Gift to give a child the opportunity to sit in a moment of adaptation and realize that not all the time does it go the way that I want for it to go. And then we can be kind and caring about, you know, the child that's disappointed that they don't get to have the toy. We can have compassion for them too.

Philippa: Mm-hmm. So when you think about, uh, kind of boundaries and consequences or, you know, misbehavior or whatever, whatever, whatever it's called, um, again, my view would be is that. Our kids don't really misbehave. They kind of give us a bit of information and we are gonna adapt to that information. And you know, it might be go the kid's way, it might go our way.

We might learn [00:20:00] something, we might not learn something. But I suppose as a parent we have to see misbehavior or naughty behavior or those sorts of things. What, what are your, what's your viewer on that, that kind of stuff. 

Dr Vanessa: Well, I don't believe that there's anything called misbehavior. I believe the word misbehavior is a misnomer.

Uh, all behavior is communication. And if you think about it that way, then you actually want for your child mm-hmm. To present to you with whatever behaviors are coming out of them, because that is how they are processed. That is how they're letting us know where they're at and what is working for them and what is not working for them, you know, um, young children, and to be fair, even our teens, there are times when accessing the full breadth of vocabulary that would be required to truly explain like the enormous.

Things playing out inside their hearts and inside their bodies. Inside their brains, they just would [00:21:00] never be able to do it. Mm-hmm. But you know, if you're, if you're having a meltdown, if you're really short and grumpy and reactive, it, it's like a breadcrumb trail and they're just leading us, uh, to this place of understanding that they have a need that's gone unmet.

Nine times out of 10, we won't know what that need was. And when we can respond all the same with an experience of compassion, even if it means holding a boundary, but an experience of compassion, then the child actually begins to be able to hear themselves as well. They can hear. Inside of themself, the message that they were giving us on the outside with their behavior.

And the more we engage in that dance, like tens of thousands of times whilst they grow, the more we engage in that dance, the more they come to understand who they are and, and what they need and how the world ticks for them. And so I think it's such a wonderful. Thing to be able to extend to our children, that experience of connection and to [00:22:00] not fall into the trap of thinking kids can be naughty or bad or whatever.

I mean, all of those things are ridiculous. 

Philippa: So can you, can you give me an example, I guess, for parents who are listening where, where you are thinking about kind of a behavior that maybe we don't want to see for whatever reason, maybe they are slamming the doors or they're, you know, refusing their tea or, or whatever.

How, what would be, I suppose. A way of thinking about that rather than sending them to the room. Like, okay, you're not gonna eat this and go to your bedroom, or you're not gonna have dessert, or, what would that look like, do you think in a parenting, roll it in an everyday household? 

Dr Vanessa: Yeah, so let's say. Let's take a couple of age groups.

So let's say you had a 5-year-old who's just refusing to sit at the dinner table and won't, uh, won't eat what you've prepared, won't stay seated in their chair, isn't cooperating at [00:23:00] all. So your first recourse would be to really think about, okay, is my expectation that this child aligned with what they are capable of?

Now I'm gonna suggest to you that a five or 6-year-old child probably shouldn't be hanging out at your dinner table for longer than 10. I mean 15 minutes at the very upper end, and if you get 10 solid minutes out of them at the dinner table, like that's pretty great. And so do you have a realistic expectation?

Another thing it, it may not be to do with their developmental agent stage. It might be that, you know what, they just had seven hours at school. Where they had to sit in their chair and they had to listen to all the rules and they had to cross their T's and they had to dot their i's, and they had to be kind to all the kids and da, da, da da.

And now they're at home and they've got like, whoa. Like they've gotta burn all of that off. And then you're like, sit at the table. Well, it's an unreasonable expectation given the setting events that came before it. In either case, we have a [00:24:00] child where it's, where we've put the bar too high. For age and stage, or we've put the bar too high for the certain situation.

Mm-hmm. They can't sit down right Now. The very last thing that makes sense is to take that child who is part of a social species and send them to their room. Because that's actually gonna make them more dysregulated. Disconnection leads to dysregulation, whereas connection, relationship leads to regulation.

So if you wanna make yourself crazy. Tell your 6-year-old kid who wants stay seated at the dinner table that they gotta go to their room now. 'cause now you're gonna have a very dysregulated child and maybe it will make them subdued in that moment and they will acquiesce and capitulate and do the things that you were asking them to do.

Um, but there will be a consequence for that down the road. It, it will come back to haunt you and to haunt that child because there is a cost to making the child's access to [00:25:00] relationship their most important need. Just as important as there. If you take it away from the child, there will be a cost. And you will see that play out.

And it probably, if it doesn't happen in the immediate moment, it'll happen in the days to come and it'll a hundred percent happen while they're a teenager. Yeah. So why would you set yourself up for that? And the, and you could look at the same thing. You know, let's say you have a 15-year-old who's like rolling their eyes to heaven, that you want them to sit at the dinner table with the family.

And this is. So dumb and, and, and I don't even like this dinner. And we have, we've had this, you know, five times this month already, whatever. They have all of these opinions. Okay, well, do you know that when your kid is 15, it's their job? To become their own person. It's their job to figure out how to take up some space in this world.

And sometimes for them to do that, they like, they literally have to walk away from us. And that's hard. So yeah, they push away from us. So now you have a 15-year-old at the dinner [00:26:00] table who's pushing away from you, and then you say, go to your room. Does that make any sense at all? Like you actually now have just put them into the exact situation or circumstance that we wanna pull them out of.

We want to stay connected. We want to have relationship be the foundation, because that is what leads to a mind that is capable of managing itself as the child goes and grows over the rest of their life. Course. 

Philippa: So it's that connection that staying with, staying alongside and, and I guess thinking about what is it that's gonna help my child in this moment, rather than what is it that I want from my child in this moment?

Yeah. And those are the difference. Sometimes we have to, you know, if we are getting them in the car and we've got to go somewhere, there's a what? And they, they've got to do that, haven't they? Yeah. Yeah. And I guess sometimes it's easier. To sit in a moment [00:27:00] and think, okay, yeah, it's really tricky. Okay, really, you don't need to eat your dinner.

As long as you eat something healthy today, then that's, that's okay. There are other times where you are going to your best friend's wedding or you're going to your grandparents and they literally do have to get in the car, don't they? Or they literally do have to get on the seat. And I guess those, those ways of managing that might be different.

Dr Vanessa: Yeah, I mean in, in, in the dinner table examples, like once you've figured out what's reasonable and what's realistic, then you can put a, put a rule in place, put a boundary in place, and hold it. Um, or you might think to yourself, this is crazy making, I don't even know why we think this is so important.

You know what, darling? It looks like you're done. Go and have a little run around. I'm gonna keep your plate on the table. It'll be here for an hour or so. So if you get hungry, you can come on back. So now you're still in charge and you've still said what time it is. You still said this is how it's gonna [00:28:00] go, but you've been compassionate about it.

You've been kind for your teenager. You might decide they just need to tough it out instead of the table. Or you might decide, you know what, darling? It looks like you're having a really tricky go today. And this is now where you wanna be. Go ahead and take a few more bites and, and I'll keep your plate warm for later.

Or you might say, you know, why don't you go ahead and take your plate and you could go and eat and we'll watch a show together while we eat, or something like that. So you take a little bit of the pressure off, but there might be other times like, you gotta get to the wedding or you gotta get to school in time, or whatever, where you just say, this is what we're doing and there's no other option.

And I know you're frustrated. Come on, I'll help you. And you might have a kid at that moment who's like, no. And refusing to put shoes on and refusing to grab their jacket and refusing to grab their bag and whatever. And so then you grab the the bag, you grab the jacket, you grab the shoes, and you take the child out to the car and you buckle up the seatbelt and off you go.

And [00:29:00] they can be mad and upset about that. You don't have to take that away from them. You just have to not join into the mad and the upset. You have to hold space for it. Be a safe witness to it so that the child is able to be brought back to a place of being more emotionally settled because you cod from the outside.

Yeah. 

Philippa: So would, would you kind of say, you know, say if you were kind grandparents and your teenager didn't want to go and they were really grumpy about it, you know, would it be something like, you know. It's okay to be grumpy. It's okay to feel inside that you really, really don't wanna be there. We're going for an hour and a half, we'll be back.

So you can do this. You can feel all that on the, on the inside. But we are just going to, you know, 

Dr Vanessa: and we're going, 

Philippa: yeah, we're going and you're going to be pleasant to grandpapa your grandparents. Yeah. Even if on the inside you are feeling grumpy and, and, and awful. Yeah. That's okay. [00:30:00] But yeah. 'cause I wonder if in some ways.

You know, you wouldn't, I'm guessing do that with a 5-year-old, because that would be a really difficult concept. But I guess the expectation of a a, you know, a middle child and a teenager might be a little bit, a little bit more s. Socially acceptable, um, because maybe they can manage that if they've got the empathy and the validation and the connection's would, would you agree with that?

Dr Vanessa: Yeah. And the more you have invited that lean in. The more they're gonna desire to do your bidding. You know, my boys are 18 and almost 22 years old now, and they're like enormous looking young men. They're six foot 2, 230 pounds, both of them. And yet, if I say jump, they both to this day will say How high mom?

Like, they're just so keen to do my bidding. They don't always like it. They don't always like the instructions that I have for them or the suggestions that I might offer [00:31:00] them, and they're, they feel safe in being vulnerable enough to receive that from me because I've made it easy for them to do that.

Mm-hmm. Um, and you can, you can have the expectation for a middle school child or a teenage child of, you know, you put the bar where they can jump. So a teen knows that if they go into their grandparents' house and they're also. Stolen and withdrawn and not participating in the conversation. They know that that's gonna impact the relationship.

And so when we've got the lean in, then what we can do is we set a boundary and then we land on their good intention. So it might sound something like, you know what buddy? I know you do not wanna go hang at Grandma and Grandpa's house. You are really looking forward to going to shoot basketball hoops with your buddies.

I really get that. We're going to grandma and grandpa's. 

Philippa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's what we're 

Dr Vanessa: doing today and I know that you love your [00:32:00] grandparents, so you won't want them to be feeling like you're all cranky pants about being there 'cause that's not gonna be very lovely for them. So I, so I'm gonna count on you to be who it is that you actually are and to show up with a big heart.

And as soon as we get back in the car and close the door, if you wanna go back to being grumpy, you go back to being grumpy. No problem. 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. And so you, you talk about, I'm just mindful that we need to start wrapping up a little bit, but you talk about kind of connection. So we've talked, I guess, a lot about managing behaviors in some way and, and all those sorts of things.

But building connection, what does that look like, do you think? And, and. How often do we need to do it and how important is it? What does that look like, I guess, through how important is it? 

Dr Vanessa: It's everything. Like it is everything. And I think there's kind of opportunities for micro connections, [00:33:00] but also the macro connections.

So micro connections would be like, you know when your child walks around the corner and you like. You have that sort of light up in you, that's a micro connection. Or your child walks by and you tussle their hair or you've got, you, you know, the, your teenagers sitting across the table from you and their dad is going on and on about something else, and you just give them a little wink.

So, so they know that, you know, that what, like, yes, we're all sitting, listening to dad go on and on, like those little moments of like, I see you. I get you. I'm here for you. Um, to the macro moments, what are the things that your child is interested in? Have you joined with them in conversation about that?

Have you joined with them in exploring that interest a little bit more? Do you set aside, aside time to, to be with your children? You know, maybe one-on-one every now and then if you can get some time for that. Um, but even every day, like, can you take. Three or four or five minutes to check in with them and have a funny [00:34:00] conversation with them about something random that happened.

Like, how are you fostering that? We want, um, frequency of interaction and also proximity. We wanna set ourselves up to be in the space. And so when my boys were still in high school and teenagers, um, they ate, they still eat a lot, which means that my evenings. My weekends were spent either in my kitchen or in the living room right attached to the kitchen, um, whether my children were there or not, because it sets me up to have proximity and frequency of interaction.

They're gonna come into that space. I know they will probably many times over the course of the day. So if I just am sort of around and present, then I have those opportunities. You know, to be able to join in conversation. And especially when your kids get a little bit older, there is this, um, draw I think for some of us to kind of retire.

You know, like they start looking like [00:35:00] adults. They've got beard and they're driving cars and they're, you know, they might have a part-time job and we think, ah, my job here's done, they're doing great. But, but you can't be retiring then you gotta keep showing up for work. Even if you're not put to work, there's lots of evenings where I'm very available in that open space, uh, of our home and my children aren't there.

Yeah. Um, but there's also gonna be that one moment, you know, when they came home from a date that didn't go the way that they wanted, or they're frustrated about something that happened at school or whatever. That I was there. Because I was there, I created the opportunity for the moment of connection and the conversation to happen.

So you just keep showing up in the micro moments, in the macro moments and, um, think about it as investing in a relationship. Mm-hmm. Because it's really, really important for them that they have that foundation. 

Philippa: Because I think that relationship, my, my, um. Son is 23 [00:36:00] and um, there was a moment where he is, he is been away from university and the first kind of year was like, I don't want to see you, I don't wanna talk to you, I don't wanna, but we, through, one of the things through, through our time was, is.

Um, from very tiny, I would say I love you lots and lots like jelly tots and there's, I don't know if you have in calendar, but we have sweetss here called jelly tots. 

Dr Vanessa: Okay. So I 

Philippa: would send him, I still do now packets of jelly tots. So text that say, 'cause I could never have said I love you, but I could send, I could say jelly tots and that was kind of, that he would accept that.

But what I've noticed is, is. He started to come back. Yeah. You know, so there was this real bit of, I'm independent, I don't need you. I don't, I'm not gonna ask you anything. I'm not gonna talk to you. But the showing up, I think has led to. [00:37:00] Now he rings me to tell me what he's cooking for his team. Yeah. Do you know, I mean, tell me what he's got from, from a, from the local shop or that the tutor's been mean to him and he's going to, and.

And that I think is, is the connection that you put in over that showing up that you are saying that even when mm-hmm. They don't need you. You still show up. That's that. Eventually. 'cause they do still need you, don't they? They just want to, yeah. To feel like they don't need you, but they just really do.

They really do. 

Dr Vanessa: And don't we all, you know, like I still, my first call if I've got something challenging in my life is, is either my husband or one of my parents. Like, and that's, that's just the right order of things. That's, that's the way that we are meant to kind of. Kind of go and, and I know, you know, even one day when my parents [00:38:00] pass on from this illusion into the next, that I, I will still look to them for guidance because that's what we're meant to do.

We're meant to be able to rest in the experience, the, the guidance, even just the, the expansive space of those relationships where we can just go, ah. Yeah. And so how lovely that, you know, a 23-year-old can find its way back to his mom for those kinds of moments. That's that's what we want. 

Philippa: Yeah. And that starts really from that very early bit of allowing the temper tantrums and sitting with the, because actually what they're, they're doing is.

Is understanding where they fit in the world, aren't they just the same as, you know, as my 21, 20 2-year-old was understanding where he fit in the world when he went off to university about actually where do I fit within the relationship with my parents, with the relationship, with my peers, with living independently, all those were [00:39:00] practiced.

Yeah. At those. Toddler baby stages, weren't they, with that scaffolding from the outside in that led to the inside out. 

Dr Vanessa: Yes. Great way to say it. Absolutely. 

Philippa: Yeah. So, mm-hmm. So I suppose I, if you could kind of give parents three key, as we wrap up three key things, what would, what would you say? 

Dr Vanessa: I, I would say, number one, stop worrying so much about what to say and what to do.

Start just dropping into how to be, so what do you have going on the inside of you? What kinds of terms do you think of your child with? Are, are you of generous heart and generous mind for them? Like, what is your being? Because Eckert Tole has said the doing our actions flow from our being, so get your being sorted out.

And a lot of 

Philippa: us, and I just, yeah. Mm-hmm. Can I just say one more thing I, I know. Yeah. Um, when I've listened to you [00:40:00] talk about, and I love this about raising generous children. Mm-hmm. And can you just, I, I just love the way that, that I heard you talk about it. Can you just talk a little bit about raising generous children?

Dr Vanessa: Yeah, from a place of being, if you are generous with your children, then what you exp, what you inspire in them is for them to be generous in return. Maybe not right away, but you know, you'll see the fruits of that labor five years down the road, or 10 years down the road, or 15 years down the road. So if we want children to grow up.

To be generous and to be full of, of gratitude. Then we must extend to them the experience of what it is to be on the receiving end of someone who's generous, what it is to bear witness to somebody who's grateful. Those things are not taught didactically, like we can't like create a manual. This is how you become generous or create a manual.

This is how you become [00:41:00] grateful. Instead, those are human experiences and we have to gift our children the. Experience of that. And so if you drop into like what do you have on the inside and how can you extend that to them on the outside, when they have that experience, the environment or the experience will shape their mind.

And then that they become, and this isn't, that 

Philippa: won't spoil them though, will it? 'cause lots of people worry about spoiling their children 

Dr Vanessa: opposite. So if you want your child. To develop a bad case of the greedy gimmies, then do not be generous. Be very stingy, be very harsh. Be very over the top firm, and they will develop a, an extraordinary case of the greedy gimmies.

But if you want your child to be generous, just be generous. The, the, the way that the human spirit. Goes and grows is that it's gonna lean into the conditions created for it. Um, and those old school ways of thinking, you know, like. [00:42:00] Um, there's some expression that they need, like all the weight on their shoulders now to keep their feet on the ground later.

La la la. These are, they just don't understand that child development's a real thing. Yeah. And as, as soon as we make our peace with that, oh my gosh. Freedom is on the horizon. 

Philippa: Absolutely. So, so sorry, I interrupted you. So the first one is, is knowing who you are. Being in the bean part of that is being that generous self.

Yes. 

Dr Vanessa: The second thing would be, um, that development. Like if you can't remember a single other thing, bring it back to whatever you say, whatever you do, have it, have it before the relationship, not against the relationship. So if you can think about it in adult terms, like if somebody spoke to you that way.

How would you feel if somebody consequence you that way? How would you feel? And all of those things, of course, are going to cost [00:43:00] the relationship. So do nothing, say nothing, be nothing that, um, injured the relationship. And then the final thing that I would say is if you're in a moment where you're like, ha.

I just don't know. I just don't know. Buy yourself some time. You don't have to know immediately. Um, and in fact, you don't need to know ever. Uh, you don't have to know the answers. You get to be the answer. And so if you need to buy yourself some time because you are spinning and you're about to blah. At your child, just like tell them, Ooh, I have to go to the bathroom.

I'll be right back. Or, Ooh, I forgot to call grandma. I gotta go do that, and I'm coming right back. And then, and calm yourself down so that when you come back, you can come back as an adult, not as a regressed form, uh, of like a child version of self. Um, we don't do so well parenting our kids when we're having tantrums ourselves.

Philippa: And I guess you can just say, right now I, I'm [00:44:00] feeling and, and I just need to go and kind of think about what I'm feeling. I'm feeling cross or I'm feeling worried, or, and then I'm gonna come back when I've managed, you know, we can own our own feelings, can't we? Absolutely. And say that. 

Dr Vanessa: Yes, and build a little bridge back to them so they're not, oh my gosh.

Mom's feeling worried or mom's feeling whatever you say. I'm feeling worried, or I'm feeling a little upset right now. I'm just gonna go take a minute and we're good. 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr Vanessa: And then get outta there and go, go 10 to yourself so that you can be whole in the way that you show up for your child. 

Philippa: Because I guess that modeling of our own, that modeling of not reacting kind of straight away again, helps our children, whether they're five, you know, 10, 15, to be able to think, oh, okay, we can just take a breath.

I can just say, I don't know. I need to think about this. You know, they're not gonna do it [00:45:00] at five, are they? But you hope by the time they get into those later teens Yes. You've modeled it and connected with them enough that they then are aware of their own emotions and aware that actually all these feelings are, are just as valid as one another.

Because we talk about positive and negative feelings, don't we? But they're, they're all just feelings. They're all okay. Whatever they are. 

Dr Vanessa: All part of the human experience. 

Philippa: Oh, that's absolutely, um, fantastic. Dr. Vanessa, I've really enjoyed talking to you. I will put a link, uh, that you've got a great Facebook page and a YouTube page.

Mm-hmm. Channel, YouTube channel, and I will put the links at the bottom of the, the. Bio for, um, this podcast if anybody wants to go on, and I would highly recommend some of your, [00:46:00] um, videos. I love them. Um, so people can go and find them there and it says you've, um, you've. Written some books. Do you, will that, will they be on your website if I put a link to the website so people can go and kind of have a look at those?

Dr Vanessa: Yes. Both books are on the website, um, and and largely available wherever books are sold as well as on Audible. 

Philippa: Okay. That's fantastic. Thank you so much for your time. 

Dr Vanessa: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on, and keep shining your bright light out there. 

Philippa: Thank you.