EP 48 The Power of the Theatre: A Conversation with Sara Amanda

In this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy, Philippa interviews Sarah Amanda, a relationship manager for the Arts Council England and a playwright, director, and dramaturg. They discuss the role of a dramaturg in shaping and supporting scripts, as well as the diverse responsibilities of a relationship manager in connecting artists and organisations across various art forms. Sarah shares her experiences with different projects, including mental health workshops for young people and a powerful personal film. They also explore the significance of diversity in theatre and how art serves as both a reflection of society and a source of communal connection and healing.

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Transcript

The Power of Theatre: Diversity, Creativity, and Mental Health; A Conversation with Sara Amanda

Philippa: [00:00:00] welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me Philippa. And this week my guest is Sarah Amanda, and she is a relationship manager for the Arts Council England, a diversity relationship manager for London. And Sarah, Amanda is also a playwright, a director.

And a drama tech. So welcome. Sara and my first question really is what is a drama tick? 

Sara: What is a drama tech? A drama tech is. Okay, this is like how I like to say what a dramaturg is. I like to say that you are a dramaturg is a fairy godmother of a script. We help turn your pumpkins into carriages.

We support playwrights, artists 'cause you can dramaturg literally anything. And we support artists [00:01:00] and playwrights and writers to really find the magic within the script, whether that's themes, arcs, character development. We kind of work with them. Throughout that process, we're really quite process driven.

We can work in rehearsal rooms, we can work in devising, so we are just there. Sometimes like a critical friend, but also as a guide as well just to help shape the piece or the performance. 

Speaker: So it's like bringing the best out of Yeah. Of somebody and Sure. And mentoring them along the way.

Sara: Yeah. Like that. Yeah. A little bit of coaching maybe. But we are not, we don't drive the process. Yeah. We hold it, yeah. Yeah. 

Philippa: So it's the, it's whoever's creating it, it's their ideas, it's their thoughts. Sure. And you are just their kind of yes. Scaffolding them in a way so that they can Perfect.

Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. I never even knew [00:02:00] one of those existed. So you've got quite a diverse range of roles, really. Yeah. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Speaker: And so just tell us a little bit about what a relationship manager is. 'cause again, when they, when you think about the theater, I. That's not something I would ever think about really.

I just, yeah. So tell us a little bit about that. What, does that mean? 

Sara: Being a relationship manager for ace it's, so I'm based in the theater team and my job is quite split, so I'm a relationship manager for theater and diversity. And the theater element is where I support NPOs, which are national portfolio organizations.

So those are organizations, theater companies that, the arts, the arts council in England. Invest in. So they fund those organizations to deliver art in its various forms. [00:03:00] So it might be working with young people. Having youth programs, it might be supporting new writers, it might be putting on specific shows, and it, also depends on what the, sort of niche of that theater is.

And then the diversity side is I work across London across all art forms. That's. Whether it's visual arts, dance, combined arts, music diverse LED organizations. It encompasses all different types of organizations that we would consider diverse. That could be it could be say based on it's a queer led organization, or it's a queer artist, or it could be that it's an organization that works particularly with migrants and things like that.

So I [00:04:00] would. Reach out to those organizations or those organizations would reach out to me. I might go and watch some work that they do. It might some be something participatory, so I might go and go to a workshop or I might go to a sharing and stuff like that. So it's a really like diverse role, but it's really working with.

I would say quite grassroots community organizations and artists that we don't necessarily see. But then it could be something, say for instance that's on app, I don't know, saddle as wells and it's about world dance. So I might go in and see that and connect with that company as well. And what 

Speaker: would, what's the purpose of connecting with them to promote them, to link one another up?

Why are you doing 

Sara: that? So it's, really important and one of the beautiful things about the Arts Council is, about connecting and showcasing and celebrating the really [00:05:00] rich. Artistic tapestry if you want, around the country. And so by going out and seeing what what's being funded, connecting with people who may perhaps have an amazing idea that they want to, get funded, so they might want some advice and guidance.

And I think. One of the beautiful things that I love about being a relationship manager is connecting organizations to artists, connecting artists to different artists organizations, to different organizations, making introductions supporting organizations by going and seeing their work.

The same with artists. I think that's a beautiful part of the job. I've gotten to know. Organizations and artists that I just would not have known existed. You get to see a beautiful, a range of work and it makes me really excited because I [00:06:00] think especially given the time that we're in at the moment it is really nice to see how people are responding to that and they're responding to it through art.

And we are funding those organizations and artists. I think. It's, really quite beautiful yeah. 

Speaker: Oh, no, that's lovely. And so I'm guessing that you get money from the government, do you or do you have to fundraise or, yes. 

Sara: ACE is a, government body that it's funded by the department.

Oh gosh, I think it's the d sorry, I'm quite new as well, and I've got dyslexia. So it's digital culture. I think it's media and sports. Okay. That fund ace. So we are a public body that gives out public money. So their accountability for us is accountability For me [00:07:00] as a, as an rm. And so that's where the money comes from.

You can apply, people can apply for different programs. So there's developing your creative practice. So if you are an artist and you want to go and spend time developing your craft, you can apply for that. Let's say you've got an amazing project idea. You can apply for a national. Lottery grant, and then there are other organizations that apply for MPO status and all different things.

So it's and any austerity. Cost of living crisis. Money is very limited. Competition's very high. Yeah. But I encourage everyone to if you've got a creative practice and you want to develop that or you've got an amazing idea, then there is opportunity. 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. And.

I'm guessing it's not from what you were talking about there, it's not just the big productions, it can be the one person production or the community. Yeah. In [00:08:00] Islington or somewhere that might have an idea and, they can think, oh, okay, we might get some support from the art council.

Yeah. And, talk to you. Yeah. Yeah, And what, kind of things do you see? Just 'cause I guess Oh wow. Those things. 

Sara: So what kind of things do I see? I saw an amazing, absolutely amazing production by in fact, one of my NPOs, the yard the yard theater in Hackney Hackney Wick.

And it was. It was, oh gosh. It was a response to, I think it was a response to something. And this is the amazing thing about being menopausal, having dyslexia and a ADHD that I can be 

Speaker: That's okay. 

Sara: Just all goes. But it was their, youth production. It was led [00:09:00] sorry, it was directed by, an amazing director, Tristan. And it was these young people, they were political. They were, the acting was just off the chain. And one of the actors had literally jumped in on that day. And you would've never known. Wow. You would've never, known. They were on point. They, oh, it was phenomenal. So I saw that when I first started Ace.

That was, brilliant. I saw, what have I seen recently? I saw not your superwoman at the Bush Theater I saw. Oh my gosh. Oh, okay. I think, oh. Every brilliant thing by Duncan McMillan at soho Place Theater. I think it's coming to the end of its run and every, I think every couple of weeks they had a different they had a different [00:10:00] person doing it, so it brought a different energy.

So the first one was Lenny Henry Johnny Defoe, am Ambica. I can't remember Aus surname, south Asian and mini driver, so I think mini driver in it quite right now. So I saw Johnny Defoe, who was the original actor in it when it came out many years ago, and I saw Aika Aus version as well.

Beautiful. 

Speaker: Okay. It's lovely to see all that passion and excitement just from that one question that I can Yeah. I can see in you. And so the arts, I've interviewed a couple of people who kind of work in creative arts and and news, creative arts with young people or Peppy Hills who are interviewed not long ago.

She uses it with, people who've [00:11:00] been displaced and can't come to England and that homeless and trying to find Sure. Status here and, actually maybe don't have the words yet for their experience, but using the creative arts and dance. Yeah. And just gives them a way of expressing maybe some of those horrific experiences that they've had.

Yeah. In a way that traditional talk therapy and that just, isn't accessible for them at the moment, for lots of different reasons. Yeah. Yeah And I think we first connected when you were doing some work with around mental health and supporting children with, mental health and young people.

Could you just tell us a little bit about that? Sorry. Yeah, sure. 

Sara: So I think that's when I was at Lucian Youth Theater. And what we had done was developed a, some creative workshops that looked at [00:12:00] developing a sort of a mental health toolkit for young people ma who was our outreach producer at the time and is now the participation manager, she came up with this fantastic idea of creating this little toolkit and it was like, on days when I feel sad, I, and it has all these positive things, but they could fill it out themselves. So through the workshop, helped them put all these self-care tips and self-love tips into this little booklet. And the workshop was designed for, young people that weren't at the threshold for being able to access cams.

Cams is incredibly oversubscribed and young people can fall into this kind of this place where they're not quite, they're, they need [00:13:00] support, but they're not. The support isn't. As high as it would be for somebody that could access cams, and even if they do get onto cams, then there's quite a long waiting list.

An amazing director said to me once drama. Therapy and therapy is drama, which whatever you're looking at, you're gonna find something that you can create. So what we did was we had these workshops for these young people. I think it ran over a half term week, and they looked at character.

So they weren't looking at themselves, they were looking at another character. And then it was around, what would you do in this situation? How can we help that character? And they responded to it really well. They responded to it. The feedback was really good. Yeah it was, a, it was an interesting piece of work.

Speaker: Because I think that kind of movement, [00:14:00] creativity can really support people's mental health. Even if you are not in the arena of actually I really need some support and I'm struggling. Just just going out and moving and connecting and Yeah. And doing something a bit different can be really helpful, can't it?

Sara: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It can. I think that once, once you get a group of people in a room and you start working with and play, oh my gosh, I cannot explain how important it is to play as an adult. And I think we lose that because life takes over and then we are all adulting, but. One of the things that I love, one of the part of the practice that I love and I didn't initially like it, is devising and getting in a room and playing, doing some improv doing a check in a silly game or something just to get you moving and [00:15:00] present and in the space.

And then I think from that, I have a colleague who specializes in. In like self-care play and devising. So at the end of the session you will have devised something. When I lived in Birmingham there was an organization, I think it's called, oh, I hate this. I can, I can't remember.

Maybe why don't 

Speaker: you email me? I will. Yeah. We'll put it in the description. Yeah. So the, organization in Birmingham, we'll put at the 

Sara: air, we'll put in the, yeah, I think it's Open Theater. Might be Open theater. I spent three days so open theater work with young people with send needs and, a majority of the young people that they [00:16:00] work with are nonverbal. So what you might go in, 'cause my undergrads in theater sorry, is in applied theater with community and education. So I did a lot of work around theater and education and we typically, when you go in, you're gonna do a workshop, you're gonna speak to young people, we're gonna do some enroll, play or something like that.

But, when with open theater, because it's all nonverbal you have to do things differently. You can't necessarily go in and say, Hey, let's do this, I'm gonna do this. You have to reach them and communicate. In their way. So we might play with a scarf, we might play with a hack, we might play with an object.

And what we were doing, we this three days, no communication no, We [00:17:00] were communicating, but no, no verbal communication. Learning new new practice and new skills. And I thought I just had the best time and I'm neurodivergent I've got dyslexia and then whilst I was studying my masters and just turned 50, suddenly I just was like, I was really struggling and, I thought, oh my gosh, I think I'm getting dementia. I really got quite scared and quite frightened and it turned out that no, actually it wasn't that it was, I was perimenopausal or menopausal, I don't know. And yeah, we think that you are displaying signs of A DHD and I was like.

Oh, really? And then I was, I think partly to do with my age I was able to get my screening, my diagnosis, and yeah, [00:18:00] so being able to play and just be quite free and I just, I didn't realize either how much I masked. I just, I must have just. Coped. Obviously I was just coping, but when I got to, to uni and the pressure and the intensity of studying at that level, which I never embarked on thinking, oh my gosh, it's gonna be that hard. I, thought an undergrad was difficult, but a degree a, master's was even harder. And that intensity. So I think it just, appeared. But I've realized that I don't have to mask anymore. And that's why working in youth theater with young people who.

Equally as neuro spicy as myself was so much fun. I have to tell you this really amazing story. So when Wicked the film came out, I do love a musical. I'm a bit part, yeah, 

Speaker: I love a musical, I have to say yes, 

Sara: You can't be in theater and not love the odd [00:19:00] musical. It's guilty pleasure and I don't, I've already seen Wicked.

So the film was coming out, I was like a child and it came out and I went to go and see it and the first time I went to go and see it, everybody was singing and I was so annoyed 'cause I just wanted to embrace myself in the film. So I went to go and see it again and then came in and one of our young people had seen it as well.

So we were just getting, we were gushing over all the different scenes and then we got to the end and the two of us sang. So loud and we were dancing and where can you work where you can do that? 

Speaker: Yeah, Do 

Sara: you know what I mean? Yeah. All that energy that you've got built up and you're having to normalize being all quite conservative you work in an environment like youth theater, you get the opportunity to really bond and you bond over your, neurodivergence.

Yeah. 

Speaker: And that's just lovely, [00:20:00] isn't it? 'cause there is that. You can just create something from nothing really, or from whatever you've got coming up for you that day. Because 

Sara: yeah, 

Speaker: every day can be different for all of us. Can't, it. And we're all a little bit neuros sp I think. Yeah. Definitely.

So I, yeah, that's a, that's an amazing and just helping people. Build that confidence I work with, lots of young people who've often had tricky starts in life and Sure, Got lots of things going on and joining dance groups or theater for them. They may. Really struggle at school.

They may even, like you say, mask and struggle at home, but just that little bit of, they might never want to go on the stage. Yeah. And do the end performance. But doing all the bits that leads up to that performance for them is [00:21:00] so freeing and so positive and building that. Sense of Sure. Of self-efficacy and self-esteem, really.

It's just really lovely. Yeah. To see that actually I am good at this or I'm, even if they aren't participating in the acting, they're good at the lighting or the prop moving or there's just, it feels like in theater there's something 

Sara: Yeah. 

Speaker: Everybody can do. You 

Sara: absolutely don't 

Speaker: necessarily have to act, do you?

Absolutely. 

Sara: I think what was really interesting as well being at the youth theater was that you would tend to find and this is, it is a bit of a generalization, but it's, it was an interesting generalization. So you tend to find that a lot of the I'd say the young people with maybe higher, slightly higher needs would tend to go into tech.[00:22:00] 

Where they would just excel. They'd just be amazing. They would just be so phenomenal. There was one young person that really he stood out because he just he, was just I think he's gonna go off and be an amazing filmmaker. I really do. He's literally gonna be in he's, made for the camera department.

But yeah, so you tend to find those with slightly higher needs. Might be in tech, you would get young people who and again I have to take my hat off to to MAs who was the participation manager and the way in which she would. Work with young people. Someone might come in and they'd be really withdrawn and not really participating to getting them to the end of a program and just seeing a complete change in the young, that young person, even if they just had one line.

[00:23:00] And just to know that when they came in, everything was a no. Then through that process, that gentle process she has a skill that I have. I've her practice was so amazing to behold how she worked with young people. I would just go in and just be really silly and sometimes probably disruptive, but it was a nice creative break for them.

Yeah. But she like really worked and, how she was just, she could respond in any moment to any situation, to any young person. A completely different skill set to mine. But it was really beautiful to watch how she would guide and support young people through a creative process to, to participate, which was fantastic.

Speaker: Yeah, and I guess that's the beauty of something that is less structured. We talk about structure on the podcast all the [00:24:00] time, and actually that can be inhibiting in many ways. I just wanted to ask about your diversity role. Yeah. And how how, I'm trying to think about the words to ask, lots of things are very white, middle class orientated, don't they? Even going to the theater, it's a very wide middle class, orienta or upper class oriented. Yeah. That the diversity is less. Accessibility can be quite difficult and some older theaters, if how does that work? How, is the art, how is the theater kind of encouraging?

All, that diversity and with, moving for, gender roles, for for the for, all that kind of stuff. How's that shifting 

Sara: with I think, [00:25:00] theater is really. Creating space. I'm not saying it's perfect. I think there is still a lot of work that needs to be done, and I think in terms of representation, we're seeing a lot more diversity on our stages.

I think that. There could be more resources to support more, diversity. And when I talk about diversity, I'm talking about all the protected characteristics in terms of what we can see on our stages, we're seeing a lot more. And, a lot more radical companies whether that's queer companies, whether that's companies that are, looking at race.

There are companies that are coming out now and they're, doing things around. I, went to, oh my gosh, I went to my first deaf festival in Brighton. Your first one can just [00:26:00] say that again. Death. Death. Death. Yeah. Death festival. Okay. I've also got a lisp as well, so that probably No, that's fine.

So I went to my first deaf festival it was called Flair Wave in Brighton. So it's, it was a three day festival and I went for one of the days and wow. I learned about the deaf community. I learned about 'cause I would say someone experiencing deafness. And then I realized that, some people like the term deafhood and how that community functions and and there was a, an amazing academic doctor there, and he said that his research looked at the different binaries. He, approached deafhood as a piece of post, [00:27:00] post-structuralist, post-modernist. Post-structuralist. So that was his thesis, but it was rooted, that was the sort of like theory for it. And he was looking at Deafhood and one of the things that he stood out and he said it's actually an ethnicity because of how the community is structured and some really great I wanna read the book that he's written actually.

And so it's, supporting and it's looking at work like that from different communities that we, that are not necessarily mainstream, that are like growing. There's another festival in Wales, but I don't, think I'm gonna be able to make that one. So that was really important there deaf rappers, there's deaf raves as well I went to an exhibition called, it was at the welcome collection. And I think it was called Fingers Talking. Yeah. Talking Fingers. Or Fingers Talking. And that was a film that [00:28:00] you could put on a vest and feel the vibrations to the music. And that's how a deaf person might not hear music the way we hear it, but we'll feel this vibration and it would vibrate.

I just think being able to experience this is the beautiful thing about theater as well, is that it gives you you can have, a sort of, is it vicarious? Yeah, vicarious experience. Yeah. Yes. So it's not, your experience, but you can you, you, can make connections. I think theater, has this ability to be quite universal in the fact of what characters experience and we get a connection in what it means to be human.

I might not be a. I might not be somebody who is in a country where there is global conflict, but I get to see [00:29:00] what that feels like in a theater. Yeah. And I'm in it and it's happening and it's live and it's real and I can feel it. And I think that is the power.

And if we look over history, art has always told what's been going on socially or politically of the time. And it speaks to our times when we think about like in your face theater in the nineties, when we think about some of those more traditional plays I don't know even some of Shakespeare stuff in it, what.

The core of it is human emotion. And yeah. So I 

Speaker: just think it's brilliant. Yeah. It's amazing. So you have made a film around mental health. 

Sara: Yes. 

Speaker: Yeah. So we talked about I suppose the theater and the arts connecting to her, supporting us at all different levels. Yeah. And then I guess we [00:30:00] can.

It can then take on the more serious elements of, of some of life's experiences really. Yeah. And so could you explain a little bit about that? 

Sara: Yeah I wrote a film, it was called Red actually. And I had I, came across this really interesting article about, a woman who had basically she'd died in her house by herself and she'd been there for four years and I can't remember fully how she was discovered.

I think it was the way in which she was discovered was almost like a flute, but it was like, how in this day an age does somebody just die and nobody. 

Speaker: Yeah. 

Sara: Nobody knows anything [00:31:00] or no one rings an alarm or it, was just such a weird experience and I kept thinking about this woman. I kept thinking like, I wonder if she felt lonely.

I wonder if she, I wonder if she had any friends, I wonder. And so I, went through this sort of thought process. So I wrote this script called Red that looked at this woman who she was spiraling. She was spiraling her. She'd been let go from her job. She had a kind of like relationship breakdown and she, was like self-harming, but there was no dialogue in this film at all. It was just about what this woman was going through, how we saw her working, walking down the roads. And then in the end, she makes this decision to take her own life. And [00:32:00] I, didn't put the film out there because I felt like I've got a real big responsibility as an artist.

The material I put out there, and I think at the time. I didn't, feel confident that I wasn't glorifying something for my own artistic desires. I, and I didn't wanna do that. I didn't wanna do that. But the script was very strong and we did go out and we did shoot it, and it's probably, it's sitting on Daniel Alexander's hard drive.

I may revisit the script now. I've had a bit more life experience myself and maybe I can look at it in a different way and there'd be some hope that is the problem. There was no hope in the script. 

Speaker: Yeah. And 

Sara: I didn't want it to be so bleak. Yeah. But and I, do, I feel like I have a moral responsibility there, but I made another film that looked at paradox and it's called Where Is God now?

And where is God [00:33:00] now? Was about a couple that were they were they, were having a baby. And the baby, the doctors tell them that the baby's gonna have a, like a very limited chance of survival. And again, that was based off of a article that I read in The Guardian where a woman was su in the hospital because they, told her that her baby was gonna be okay.

And when she gave birth, her baby had, I think her baby had Down syndrome. And she said, had I had known I would've terminated the pregnancy? And I thought, wow, what would I have done in that situation? I don't know. Do you know? This couple are they're really navigating this challenging decision and the, woman who's carrying the baby, she decides that she wants to have the termination, whereas the, partner, he doesn't, and he says, come on [00:34:00] my mom, she prayed for you when you couldn't get pregnant.

And the partner says where's God now? Yeah, but the really sad thing about that film was our lead actress Tilly Tilly Coleman she ended up during COVID taking her own life and that was so sad. And I remember speaking to her prior and I thought. It's, so weird. 'cause when I was speaking to her, I was like something, don't feel right with Tilly, and our last conversation was, she had rang me whilst I was at work and, I said to her, oh, Tilly, I'm just at work at the moment. I'll call you back and. And then we went into lockdown and everybody was dealing with their own I lived by myself during, lockdown, and at the time I was working for rape crisis.

I was a trainer and I really didn't want to be delivering sexual violence [00:35:00] training in my own home. It's just so it's such a challenging time for everyone. And I said, Tilly I'll, call you back. And I didn't I didn't. And then when obviously she decided to do what she did. I just thought, oh my God if, I'd have called her back.

Yeah. So I think when it comes to like making films that explore quite severe mental health it's, we have a moral duty as artists to make sure that there is at least some hope. Sometimes there is 'cause there isn't hope in life is there. And I think that's one of the things as humans we need to see that there is some form of light.

Speaker: However 

Sara: small or the possibility of a, of an alternative. Yeah. 

Speaker: Yeah. And that can be quite powerful, can't it? I think when you see it portrayed, whether it's in the theater, whether it's in a song, whether it's on the tv, and you can connect [00:36:00] with somebody else's experiences that maybe Yeah. Resonate with maybe the hurt that you are feeling inside or the, yeah.

the the black hole that you might feel that you are in, and then you can see actually there is hope for this character. Even, like you say, if they don't go down that route there is this moment where it could be different. I think then as a person engaging with that you might be able to think, okay is there that.

That, that kind of hope Yeah. Connection for me. Is there that kind of different path. Yeah. And like you say, sometimes people choose for whatever reason that the the route that they go down and that's horrifically sad. But yeah, I [00:37:00] guess we all have those, and that's one of the things that Julia and I when we were thinking about this podcast was that we wanted to be honest, we wanted to have these conversations, but we wanted it to be without judgment or without saying, this is what you should do.

Because we kind. Don't know what somebody else should do. Do we? Yeah. We, can say this is our experience, this is what we've done, this is what's there. And, but we, can't tell people what they should be doing, but I think the theater and the film can give. Give a reflection, can't they?

That people can take what they want from it. Yes, for sure. Say this is you should be doing this. Yeah. It's this is, an event. You can take what you want from it. Yeah. Whatever's gonna be helpful for you. And I think that in itself can be very powerful to know that there are other.[00:38:00] 

Experiences out there that maybe reflect a bit about what you are going through? For sure, I think 

Sara: I think that theater sometimes can be like a bit of a mirror that we hold up to ourselves. We can see ourselves in it, whether it's through the protagonist or the antagonist, whether it's through the, tempo of a piece of dance, whether it's in a painting, whether it's in spoken word or whatever.

We can see ourselves sometimes. And I quite like. Experiencing new things and I, I also think that theater or film, more theater, that's where my heart is. It transports you. 

You can travel back in time, you can travel to the future, you can [00:39:00] travel to other countries.

You can step into someone's imagination. And it's just beautiful. It's just out out, of this world. And I've seen children's plays. I saw children's play. I think it was. Might have been the unicorn. Might have been the unicorn. It was it, and it was about a young girl going into foster care.

And so it was all about the house welcoming her in. Yeah. And it was one of the most heartfelt, heartwarming, be beautiful little plays that I had seen. And it was for children, but I really liked it. Yeah, I saw another play disabled led youth play that was aimed at young, people.

And that might have been, I think that might have been the unicorn as well. And it was [00:40:00] young disabled artists, almost like poking fun at. An ableist community. Yeah. And I thought it was so cleverly done and it was for young people, but it spoke to me as well. I felt seen, I felt visible.

A friend of mine Caza Rose, made avid documentary and it is called Visible. And it's about black queer experience and the fact that they are also visible. 

Speaker: Yeah Yeah. 

Sara: Which toured. So the beautiful thing about whether it is theater or film is that you get to experience things Yeah.

That you might not necessarily have ever been able to experience or see or witness. You get a glimpse into other people's 

Speaker: lives. Absolutely. And I think the other thing is that it [00:41:00] gives you an in the moment experience and it can cross generations, can't it? Yeah. One of my favorite memories. Of my childhood is that with my nan every three months we went to watch the amateur dramatic groups in our and some of them were outstanding, some of them were.

It was Sweetie Todd, the musical. It was the most horrendous thing I've ever seen in my life, but it's still. It still connected us, it still made us laugh. Do, you know what I mean? And I remember that, and we did that for years. And then when my son was born, we went with my nan, my mom, me and him and, saw theater, saw, like children's theater.

But we were all together in those experiences we had within that theater thing that you probably. There wasn't really anything else [00:42:00] that would've been able to bridge that, those GE gaps of generations going and seeing horrible histories with, my son. And, there was something in it for everybody really.

Yeah. And those are just, I think, things that you can hold on to, can't they? For forever. Yeah, for sure. Forever, really. For 

Sara: sure. You can, walk away and, a great thing that I think of, a dramaturg friend of mine, somebody Jones said, she said that for her, plays the work of the play happens in the car on the way home when you start talking about it.

And I think plays, especially the plays that I write, I want them. I want them to do the work. When you go home, sit down, have conversation about that character, have a conversation about that scene, have a conversation about what that character did. I think that's really important [00:43:00] that the play is like a conversation starter.

I wish I could write a play about all the conversations that people have after they've seen a play. Yeah. Because I think when I'm at, when I'm at work. We're theater buffs we love it. We'll sit there for ages talking about a plane or a piece of work that we've seen, and I think when we're.

When we're engaged in our conversations that suddenly went, oh yeah, but I thought, that character would've done this. Or, so you think it was this and Oh gosh, yeah. 'cause it really reminded me when I did this, and I think those conversations, that's the power of the space. That's the power of the, work.

Especially theater, I think because it's live, because you're seeing the characters right in front of you. I still though, because I, went to go see a sharing scratch, night sharing.

Somebody, removed their top. And I [00:44:00] just remember thinking, oh my God, this is so embarrassing. And then I was like, probably everybody's feeling like me how we respond to nudity or how we Yeah. You know what I mean? I'll tell 

Speaker: you, I went to see something that I wanted on some friends of mine in Bright Naturally.

Yeah. It was the Brighton Arts Festival and I can't remember the name of the dance company. It was not something that I would. Ever I've gone to see. And so this friend had said, I've got this ticket. Do you want to go? And Brighton for me is a long way, but I was like let's go. And it was non-verbal, so it was all dance.

And then this guy. The stage completely, utterly naked with everything out. And he was like there for a while moving around. But I have to tell you, it was probably one of the. [00:45:00] One of the best things that I ever saw. And that thing about the music in your body. Yeah. It was so loud. And I live in a really rural place and I don't particularly like a lot of noise in a lot of people, but you could feel the music through the floor and through your body and it was one of the most, I wish I could name, remember the dance company.

Yeah. But. Absolutely outstanding, but nudity, yes. There's, yeah. Yeah. Whole everything. I was like, oh my God. But you couldn't stop watching. Yeah, because we were all moving around. It was just amazing. But yes, those kind of things like you, those little moments. Oh, when a scene gets really tense 

Sara: and you're like, oh, what's he gonna do?

Yeah. I think. I think all of those you, experience it, yeah. I, think it's so hard. It, like I said, I think it's of both a visceral and a [00:46:00] vicarious experience that we get in theater that. You obvi, you don't get that with film because oh, I'm what? But in theater you suspend your imagination.

You suspend your belief. 

Speaker: Yeah. 

Sara: Like I've, if I'm in a show and I think this is not real, then I kind of question like, what was going on there? Maybe with the writing or the directing or whatever. But when I go in and I see a piece. I'm not watching somebody on a stage, I am in that moment. They are talking to me.

Yeah, I am with them. If they're in space, I am with them in space. If they are in 1920, I'm with them in 1920. If they're, if it's 2070, I'm with them in 2070, I really believe it and I can suspend my belief. And I think that's also within itself, quite calming, quite soothing. I think of theater like this, right?

This is gonna sound so weird, but I've got a cockapoo little co cockapoo [00:47:00] puppy. And yeah, she's she's about 10, 11 months. And when we go out, she just wants to sniff everything. But sniffing for her is really calming, right? So I make sure that when she goes out on a walk, I factor in lots of sniffing time and I feel like sniffing is.

What sniffing is for dogs Theater is for me. It, brings calm it makes me it, allows me to look at myself without looking at myself in an overtly therapeutic way. I can just see and go, okay, I remember that. I remember. What did that character do? How did that character feel?

And I think that is a beautiful thing about it. 

Speaker: Absolutely. And I think that is a great place to, to end our podcast. [00:48:00] What an amazing conversation, Sarah. I really love this. And at the end if you can send, we'll put some links weren't we've, of all the different things. 'cause you've got your own. Stuff going on.

You've, there's the art council, there's the, there's the the little play film of where, it's gone now. So we'll put all those at the links to them at the bottom of that. Fabulous. Fabulous. 

Sara: Thank you so much. 

Speaker: Thank you for having me. Thank you. Honestly, I've loved it. And hopefully we can maybe catch up again in 12 months time and hear a little bit more about what's happened over the last, 12 months in the Arts Council. 

Sara: Fabulous. 

Speaker: Alright, take care. Bye.