EP51 - Stories of self-doubt and Imposter Syndrome; Julie interviews Philippa

In this episode of 'Pondering Play and Therapy,' Julie interviews Philippa Kelly about her career journey in play therapy with children and families. Kelly reflects on her year-long co-hosting experience, her struggles with self-doubt, and how she overcame significant challenges. Key highlights include her path from a troubled school life to becoming a social worker, completing a family therapy degree, and ultimately, a practitioner at Gateway Psychological Services. The episode delves into her valuable lessons from mentors and experiences, emphasising the importance of communication, compassion, and critically evaluating therapeutic methods. Philippa candidly shares her ongoing struggles with imposter syndrome, offering a relatable perspective for fellow practitioners.

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Transcript

Real Stories of Self-Doubt: Imposter Syndrome in the World of Therapy. Julie interviews Philippa

Julie: [00:00:00] Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me, Julie. And this week my guest is Philippa Kelly. So Philippa, you and I have spent oh, a year doing this podcast together and a few weeks ago you interviewed me about how come I am a play therapist and I'm working in the way I'm working and so today is the return where I'm going to be asking you how come Philippa, you've ended up working with children and families with play.

And you're quite nervous is what I'm picking up. In fact, I'm more than picking up. I think anybody looking at me, if you were watching, you'd see Philippa has you've lost your bounce a bit this morning and even in our preparation I could really sense this is making you far more nervous than our usual conversations or your [00:01:00] interviews.

So there's something different going on for you when today the focus is on you and I am really picking up that's changing something for you. Tell us a little bit about that. 

Philippa: Yeah. When we agreed to do this, I thought, yeah, that's a great idea. We've talked, but we haven't really talked about.

Why we do what we do and how we've ended up where we are. And we've got 30 plus years of experience each. Yeah, that story seems reasonable to tell along the way, and that might be interesting to some people. And it was a really good idea and I interviewed you and that was no problem.

And then it was gonna be my turn and I was, yeah, started to think about how do I talk about myself? It's just, it's really hard for me. So then we had a we, we said, oh, we were gonna do a 50th [00:02:00] episode. So that gave me a bit of a break, uhhuh, because we've done that in between, haven't we? So that again was fine.

Yes. Yeah. Because we were talking about what we'd learned from our guests. And that for me, like talking anybody who knows me, hopefully people from the podcast realize that having a conversation. Is not really an issue for me. I don't lack in confidence really in any way. Obviously I get nervous about things, but I'm pretty resilient in being able to overcome any like niggles or that.

But the thought of talking about myself has, yeah, I've spent my drives to and from work thinking about how, do I say this? How do I talk about it? How, and that's not because nothing, but my career has actually been [00:03:00] very blessed. I've been absolutely amazing. I think what I struggle with is feeling that I have value in the conversation that my experience.

Like my, experience, not like when I'm having the conversation with somebody else or, my knowledge really, but my view, my personal view, I think that, and that my personal knowledge maybe isn't as valuable as, or that people might not be interested in it, or, yeah, I don't have much, I, so it's really made me think about how I tell my story and actually I'm gonna tell my story through how other people have supported, influenced and [00:04:00] what, I've gained from significant people along the way.

Julie: So for this episode, you've. You've planned or structured what you're going to say. And normally, although we do have a plan and we do have an outline structure, we never keep to it. So we gave up with that quite early on. We, get the gist of what we're gonna say. And it's the same with your interviews.

You, you don't have a structure and a list of questions, but you, manage very skillfully, I think to wander through a topic with somebody and it having great meaning. But there's something today about the focus being on you, as Philippa, and not just you as Philippa the professional that's causing you to act in quite a different way.

And one of those ways is you've needed to structure things. 

Philippa: Yeah. I've really thought, and you're right. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, I do my training [00:05:00] and I have I'm at, have PowerPoint slides, but I, have. I just know what I need to say through the four or five hours, and I know that I'll get there in some way.

Do you know what I mean? And the slides are there because people like slides and people but actually I really don't have any idea what's gonna come out my mouth and every training is, different. I know the general topic I'm talking about, and I know course generally the points that I need to get across.

But each each training I do each would be different because the stories I tell I'm like, oh yeah, that's a really good story today. And it just comes in. So it's, yeah, I very rarely structure what I do because my brain doesn't work in that way. But yeah, this one I've really thought about how, I want to tell this.

To tell. Yeah. Really have, and that's imposter [00:06:00] syndrome. And I guess we did have a conversation about that. And I think I think that was one of the things that maybe we thought we would share is about why, that is for me. And that is because I thought I was a stupid kid. I was really good at sports.

So that got me through school until I was 13 and I moved schools. But up until I was 13, I was really good at sports. I was not the best there was always people that were better than me at swimming, rounders, netball. But I was always good enough to make the team, I was always good enough to, go to away matches, to be included, to be one.

Yeah, so there was this, so I had sports that I was good and I knew I was good at it. Like I said, I was never the best in any of them. I was never gonna be professional, but I was good enough. But my family were really. Intelligent in general knowledge. [00:07:00] 

And I still, to this day, I have no idea who king, the kings and queens are in our country.

I have no idea of capital cities or rivers that run through, or sometimes even where some of the counties are in our, where I know the north because I live in the, the middleland of the north, but I have no idea like the difference between Sussex and ethics for as far as, do you know what I mean?

I know they're down the south somewhere, but I've not really much idea about it. I've so general knowledge, general things like that is really difficult for me. And I remember once pla we played Trivial Pursuit in our family. I never got a cheese, never. I just was, I was terrible. But I remember once answering this question about who wrote Winnie the Pooh and I knew the answer because.

My dad had read Winnie the Poo to me as a child and [00:08:00] I really liked Winnie the Pooh, and my family was so shocked that they were like, are you cheating? Is the book somewhere? And that they were joking about it, but that reinforced this, that you are not clever. 

Julie: Not clever in that way. 

Philippa: Yeah.

But that for me was that I was stupid. So I left school with no exams. I actually wrote swear words on my papers, on my exam papers. And yeah. And so I got, a uses and then, because, 'cause I'd put my name in this swear word, so that upgraded. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Philippa: I, did that for about four and then they stopped me at the gate and said are you going to answer the questions or do what you've been doing?

And I said, I. Gonna do what I've been doing. So we said maybe it's best that you don't, continue. 

Julie: [00:09:00] That's the exams that in the UK we do around the age of 16. Yeah. That it would've been O levels, CSEs. Now, GCSEs. And when you were writing those swear words, which we are not saying, but I know what the swear words are was that I noticed you, you're smiling as you're saying it, but you're also grimacing.

Yeah. At 16 you must have known the consequence of that, which is I'm gonna not gonna get any Yeah. Any formal exams. And they graded, 

Philippa: but I didn't think I was gonna get any exams anyway. 

Julie: What 

Philippa: we, I moved schools when I was 13 to a school that didn't do sports. So I literally stopped going. I did go I, liked the social side of school to a degree.

I'd moved to a new school at 14, so that was really hard. And I ended up. Having a fight [00:10:00] with the popular girls because they cornered me and I'd been friends with some of the lads, just because they were in a class that I was in, there was nothing, to it. They were just the people that talked to me that, that was it.

They just talked to me and I was just, needed somebody to talk to. I was 14 in a school. I'd moved across Stoke on Trent, so I'd moved. I was completely left. All my friends, I'd moved from one side of Stoke to the other, and when you lived in Stoke, you just didn't travel from one town to another. There's five towns that makes Stoke Hop.

And you just, it just, you just didn't do it in those days. You just stayed in your town. I did have some friends, but, and I made friends as it went through as I went through, who lived near me, who not really were in my school, but they pinned me up against a wall and said, leave these lads alone as girls do.

It was just so I ended up headbutting this girl. So they left [00:11:00] me alone. Then they, I stood my ground, I'd got the resilience, but sport had given me that I didn't I could have easily have been bullied and there was, I suppose it was that underlying meanness, but they never really, it didn't really go that far because I was confident in myself, I wasn't confident in my academic abilities.

Julie: And so there's a difference there between confidence in what other people are measuring, like in an exam or in a trivial pursuit game. And then confidence as. Yourself. Yeah. In not just your sporting achievements, but just you as Philippa, as a decent human being. It didn't rock that sense for you.

Philippa: It was hard. It was, hard and I hate, so I didn't go to school a lot of the time I did, I for the subjects where the teacher was engaged or I was interested, or [00:12:00] I'd got people in the class that talked to me. Then I went to school. We, I went to chemistry because the teacher just absolutely didn't teach us.

And these lads were in there and we just messed about and made all these concoctions and it was pretty dangerous. Really did things with that static ball and there was like, we just met, so I had a really great time in chemistry. And physics because this teacher just checked out for whatever reason.

So I went to those lessons, but for others I didn't. So I, so when the exams came, I hadn't done any revision. I didn't think I was ever gonna pass. There was never a moment in my mind where I thought I was gonna get a qualification. Even the school had said to me, the most you can hope for is to be a lithographic, which is so excellent.

So in [00:13:00] the pot banks, so we've talked about before, so where the pots are made they aren't, they don't exist really anymore. So stoke, but 

Julie: pots as in clay pots, 

Philippa: yeah. So Stoke on Trent was got Dalton and Spode where all your crockery comes from. 

Julie: Okay. 

Philippa: Yeah. And on there, on your crockery, you get patterns and transfers.

Julie: Yeah. 

Philippa: And a lithographer is somebody who puts on the okay. The detail. And it's, a quite a skilled job I have to say. So what they were saying was, is that's the best you are ever gonna get. It's to be that skill, that is, a level of skill that you are going to achieve. 'cause it wasn't even sports in this school.

If I'd stayed in the other school, I probably would've gone down the sports route. Because they did encourage me. They did take me they were really in the sports stuff. And I did the [00:14:00] classes because I had to do that in order to access sport. But it also gave me lots of time away from that I could swim at, yeah.

Lunchtimes. If there was training, I left geography and did tra, do you know what I mean? So I had lots of break from that academic stuff. 

Julie: Two s one question and may maybe I think I know the answer to this, that the reason you changed from one school to the other was that was your parents' choice, not your choice.

Yeah, absolutely. We had, 

because I think Philip I, think we've spoken about that in my interview. I also changed school at 14 and music was my thing, but it was the opposite way round. I hadn't done very well in the first three years of secondary school, and I realized I wasn't gonna be able to do music as a, as an exam or as a subject after the age of 14 at my school.

So my mom really pushed for me to go to another [00:15:00] school, and actually I really thrived in that second school. So we've, got some similarities, but that difference. But the big question that's in my head at the moment is how can, hang on, you became a social worker and a family therapist and a, therapy practitioner.

How did you manage that if you left school with no exams? So tell us, that story. 

Philippa: Yeah, so then I went to, I moved out of Stoke on tr I was never gonna leave Stoke, never, ever. And then I did, I was just like, oh, I'm out. So I moved to a hospital in Hartfordshire 

Julie: for 

Philippa: a hospital as a care assistant.

Okay. In Hartfordshire for adults with learning and physical needs who actually had, had been dete, you, we, these people wouldn't have been in, in hospital nowadays. They were [00:16:00] placed in kind of the 1950s where things like learning disabilities and that were deemed to to be a problem not, seen as just neurodiverse and maybe you need some support.

So the place as well. So I went there and actually when I went there I met my, I met the first start of the circle of my closest friend. So Emma, I was 18 when I met her, and she's still my bestest friend now. She, do you know what I mean? I still see her, we still walk together and she really looked after me 'cause I was.

On a path that was one way, and she was on a path that was another. And she just used to put me to bed and say don't, get out of bed until the morning. And really looked after me and supported me and was my friend regardless of anything. And I also met [00:17:00] my son's dad there and he's still my closest friend now.

So I made some really close friends there. And so I settled down into life a little bit. And the Community Care Act came in? 

Julie: Yes. 

Philippa: Where they were moving people out of hospitals into the community and these social workers. Remember I was only 18, 19 with the. With Yeah. And they were, I was just like, you, what are you doing?

You, are just putting these people that I cared about, that I really liked, into a community where they've got, because this hospital that they were in, they had a social club, they had shops they had a, village together in this place. And then they were moving them into houses in streets where they had nothing.

And actually in the hospital, they could just go, oh they had to stay in the ground, [00:18:00] but they could go to the shop. They went to work. They, did things and they were moving them out, and I was 19 and thought I can do a bad job. Really? That was, ultimately like, what are you doing? You are just n.

I can do a better job. I'm gonna care about these people. I'm going to help them. So I went back to college and did an access to university. Of course, I think you can still do it now. So I did. You have to do your English, your maths, but you don't do any exams. It's all coursework based. Yeah. And I did sociology, so I passed them all really well.

Apart from you it, because I did the sociology, a level coursework. They said to me, to everybody, you can do the exam if you want because you've done the same coursework. 

Julie: Okay. 

Philippa: So I was like, okay, I've done the coursework, I'll do it. So I sat there and I failed completely. I failed the exam, but I didn't make any [00:19:00] difference to going to university Coursework was the thing.

So I got the coursework and I ended up at Hartfordshire University, but my mom was a social worker. Okay, so I was in social, I was doing my social work training and my mom was helping me with my assignments and all my family, and everybody joked, oh, your mom's getting a second degree. 

Julie: Wow. 

Philippa: Ouch. Yeah. 

Julie: So that story of Philippa not being very clever we're the clever ones, not Philippa, and basically your mom's writing your essays for you, so it's not you really you doing it.

Philippa: Yeah. And they didn't think about it like that. I, think if my, hopefully my won't listen to this podcast. If she did it would, upset her, I think. Yeah. But really that was, yeah. So I got a personal social work qualification and I moved back to Staffordshire. [00:20:00] My, luckily my Emma, who I'd met in Hartfordshire also came from Staffordshire and she'd come back.

A few years earlier, so she only lives not far from me. Now we, moved back and I did social work and I was really, so this is, I guess the first time, like where I feel that I, just met some people that kind of really saw something in me that I didn't and really helped me.

So I ended up on, at the time it was called an intake and assessment team. So in social work, it was the changeover. At the time there was something called an orange book. So I used to do an orange book assessment, and just as I was becoming a social worker, it was moving from the orange book to something called the core assessment, which is what they [00:21:00] do now.

And they do, yeah. At the time there was seven, it was a seven day assessment. And then if children and families needed more support, it went onto the longer core assessment. So the team that I was on I have to say is when I went to university, I was never gonna work with children. I didn't go to any of the children's lectures because that was a one, that was the one area that I knew I wasn't going to work in.

And it's the only thing I haven't done. 

Julie: It's the only thing The universe was teaching you something else. Philippine. Yeah. 

Philippa: Yeah. So yeah so, I then met my team manager was called Richard, and there was three women in there, Jill, Faye, and Sheila. And it was an in, it was a, an assessment team. Intake and assessment team.

So anything that was coming in through the door came into our team and quite a big geographic area. So [00:22:00] some things were just we don't have any food. And so in those days it was something called section 17 monies. So we'd go shopping and help get some food and feed families.

Sometimes people needed help to get kids to nursery. We'd do that sometimes families needed support for lots of different reasons, and we'd do the assessment, do some support if they needed further support. In theory, it went to another team. It often stayed for a bit longer. And then there was the higher end staff of, Nowadays it'd be called safeguarding and then child protection. At the time there was, safeguarding really wasn't a word, it was just child protection. So it was the things where children were deemed to be at significant risk or significant harm, either in the moment or like at that harm was likely to occur.

So I was really what I got [00:23:00] from this group of people was one, I was very protected. I didn't know that at the time, but now with hindsight, I know that they gave me work and families that built my skills and they supported me really, well in building those skills. And the biggest thing that I think I got from them was about.

Communication and that communication is about listening to family stories. Even if you are having to say a child can't remain at home for whatever reason maybe 'cause of genetic violence or mental health, or there's the there's, been some physical or neglectful parenting, and you are saying, actually for this moment in time, a child's not safe to be here, not [00:24:00] just.

Kind of going through a tick box of, I've met all the criteria, we've met the threshold. 'cause it's the threshold criteria. We can now go to court and remove your child. The, import, what it taught me was the, what they taught me was the importance of listening and just listening to a family's story.

A mom, a dad, a granny's. And if that took all afternoon, then that took all afternoon. You just sat there and and sometimes it was hard 'cause people were mean to you calling you all the effing names under the sun. And because they were mad and they would crossed. But that's again, what they, what I learned from them was that.

That wasn't about me and I was only in my twenties then. And so it feels really personal when somebody's saying, you are this, and this, but this group of people really helped me to reflect on [00:25:00] why are they saying that? Would you say anything, any different if that was happening to you?

And maybe what we need to be able to do is I'm still going to go to, court or still ask them to to place the child in foster care for a little bit of time. But I can do it with compassion, with an understanding with a, view that these families are doing the best they can in the moment that they're in.

And unless you hear their story, you can't always hold that. And really that's what I learned. I learned it really well from watching them do it and then from them listening to me and really gently giving me this bit of reflection about why is that happening? Why? And that is something now that I still hold as [00:26:00] why, 

Julie: yeah. What's behind that? What is really being conveyed here? 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: And it's a bit of a sideline my, my knowledge of you over, I dunno, we've known each other about seven years, something like that. Is that's a huge part of your practice still now is listening to the story, not just as a child, but of the, wider family.

And I'm wondering is that. You were taught that not so much taught it as in a lesson, but taught it through the example of the more senior members of staff in that social work team. So that's such a different way of learning, which is the learning by practice, the learning through example, and that learning by somebody being alongside you and is that something in [00:27:00] your work as a supervisor, as a, I dunno if you've been a practice educator, but.

Is that something in how you work with younger members of professions now? 

Philippa: Yeah, I would subconsciously. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm doing third play supervision and somebody's got a list of, games at they're playing. That's one of the first questions I ask is why? Why are you doing that?

Why are you doing cotton ball hockey? What is it you want from this? What is the reason? What are you hoping the kids gonna get going behind 

Julie: it? Yeah. You know 

Philippa: what, why? It might be a great activity and it might be just 'cause you're having fun, but why? Why are you doing it? Yeah. 'cause the families I guess of that I worked with in that time also taught me that if you listen, you can connect and they will connect with you.

Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And they can still be mad at you and that, so you know, and they can still not want you to [00:28:00] do it, but if you've got a compassion for them. And that is not about excusing behavior, but you can be compassionate. And I have to say, there are some, situations where I know that I don't hold that there are and, within that team I learned what they talked about was omission and commission.

So omission being that you are doing the best you can at the moment. And the omission is, that you don't have the other skills, the other capacity, the other resources to be able to do anything different. And that might be 'cause of mental health, it might be because of addiction, it might be because of domestic violence, but there's o, there's an omission and you are doing absolutely the best you can.

Julie: Yeah. 

Philippa: There are some situations where it's never omission, it's always commission. And that is, and so that is, you have [00:29:00] on purposely. Created a situation to perpetrate that abuse or you've on purposely created that abuse to, to give you pleasure or entertainment and, I have to be honest, that bit, however much they taught me, even to this day I, find the commission bit very, difficult to have compassion for.

And it's very hard to, and certainly in my twenties it was, I think even in my fifties, it's, something that I find very difficult. Not impossible. I can work cognitively really harder at it, but I don't think I can feel it in my body. Whereas the emission stuff, I can, I really feel that in my in my soul.

Does that make sense? 

Julie: You did social work Yeah. In a children's team for quite a while in your twenties. What happened next? 

Philippa: [00:30:00] So then we had our son and I I'll tell you, I went for a job at camp, so I wanted to go part-time. And so this job in Cams came up. 

Julie: Explain what can just briefly explain what CANS is.

Yeah, so 

Philippa: CANS is a child and adolescent mental health service. So we've had done a few episodes back on it. So it's really where children who are struggling parents who want help around mental health or things like that get, are referred into. And it was an n it is an NHS body, but at the time there was a local authority, a social work post within it.

And one came up in Stoke, actually in, Stoke. So I went for this interview, but three days before they'd sent you, you had to do this presentation. And this is not planning this, really is, this is me. So they'd sent you this presentation, weeks and weeks before that you had to do, you had to [00:31:00] do I think a 10 minute presentation on, a book that was based in Cams.

It was like the working together document. One for social work, but it wasn't called that together. It was called something like, together We Stand, or something like that. But it was primarily like their guidelines for cams. I'd never heard of it, never seen, didn't even know it existed three days before and thought, oh, I better have a look at what I've meant to do.

And I'm like, bloody al, I've got to do this presentation. So I just ring this, social worker in, a Cams team in Stafford and said, do you have a copy of this book? And she's yeah. I said, can I borrow it? 'cause I'm going for this interview. So she lent it to me, but she, the woman who was interviewing me, one of the women was she obviously her manager and she'd wrong and said you've got this one coming, but she hasn't even read the book.

Anyway, I did read the book and I did do a presentation [00:32:00] and it went well. And they, the feedback was, is we were so surprised because you hadn't read the book, but actually it was a really good presentation, but the psychiatrist is there. So there was who he was named Dr. Lovet. So he was part of the NHS and he was the clinical lead of the team, and he was gonna be my supervisor.

So he asked, so they all, you know how they are, they take interns asking you questions? Yes. And he asks me something, a safeguarding question and I'd answered it, and I don't even remember what it was. And he'd give me a return a about it. And I, said, no, that's wrong. And interest, I see. That was, everyone's saying that.

Yeah. People were like, no, you're wrong. Yeah. And so he gave his view again. And I stopped my ground and I was, I don't even know what it was. And I gave him the reasons why I felt that he was mistaken [00:33:00] and that he wasn't it wasn't correct. Anyway, ed Harvey, who was the social work manager said, okay, we'll leave it there and move, on.

So I went back to my team and I was in, we were discussing kind of referrals and I was with the team manager and the some of the social workers and, somebody came in and said Richard, I just on the phone for you. So I was like, Richard, I'm really sorry. She's probably ringing up to make a complaint.

I, I didn't mean, I didn't mean it. I'm really I'm sorry. And so he is like looking at me. Anyway, he went. I had this conversation and came back and he said they were just asking for a reference for you. You've got the job. I was like, what? And he said yeah. Anyway, so the reason I got the job was because I'd stood up to the psychiatrist.

And that's, and what she was saying was, is that's what [00:34:00] we want, is that, and I wasn't rude, but I was like, clear about this was my view. This is your view and I think you are wrong. And that was what she wanted really was that, and I'd done the presentation and I'd done it I'd met the requirements and all those sorts of things.

So I got the job and I was there for a while. And so then you can do some training or at the time you could do some training. And I wanted to do family therapy training. And this was the next thing I learned really. So I learned about communication and then I went to this team and I, I wanted to do family therapy, and Dr.

Lovett said, no, you're not doing family therapy. I don't like fa family therapy. It doesn't add any value to, to to, to, the cams. I was like it does. He is evidence it. [00:35:00] If you want to do it, give me the evidence. So I went away, read a few papers and came back and give it to my, and then he just argue he was very skilled and he just poofed away everything I'd said he, there was a counter argument to everything that I was saying.

So I went away again, did a bit more, went back and again, he was really skilled at cancer. So then I went away and I really really found it and went back and spent a whole hour debating with him and I was able to hold my own and he then he said, yeah. Of course you can go and do family therapy and then absolutely supported me all the way through.

I had a supervisor and I did my family therapy degree. So he taught me about about knowing why you're doing so doing something and not just the surface bit of really being able to think about [00:36:00] what value is this gonna add to a family, to a child, to a not just the headline of it, but actually why are and it is a bit more about the why but about what is this gonna give to your family that, so that's what, that, what he taught me and it was very powerful I think.

Julie: And is that is that still part of your practice as well? So from the families and that first social work team, you were really learning about communicating, keeping an open conversation going, especially in omission cases and not in the commission cases, but recognizing that and thinking to yourself, why are they reacting like this?

Why are they having a go at me? So you've definitely carried that into your practice now, but Dr. Lovett, and he really pushed you to He [00:37:00] did. Yeah. To say the why, like to really know what it is you're doing and why you're doing it. And perhaps all along he knew full well he was gonna tick that box and say off you go to your family therapy.

But he really got you to delve into the depth of it so you knew it wasn't just the latest trend. Oh, I'll do a bit of that. To really know why. Have you carried that on in your career since then? 

Philippa: Yeah, 'cause I think again that it taught me to think about we are gonna turn up to families.

We are gonna, they're coming to us often in a moment where it's hard for them. They might be in crisis, they might be really struggling. They're very vulnerable, aren't they in those moments? Families, and if you are gonna offer something, if you're gonna do something, then you really need to [00:38:00] understand how that is gonna be helpful.

And that's what he taught me. Just think about how is family therapy going to be helpful? To a family, to a child, to a service what is that gonna add? So when I did Thera play, when I've done boss, when I've done leaflets I'm just learning the MDR. What is it gonna add to my practice that I can give to these families?

Now it's not that there are other things that are really great, but they're not gonna add anything. T for the families in relation to how I'm going to work with them. 'cause that was, that's the thing, isn't it? So I could learn CBT and do a really great job and learn CBT, but actually the families that I work with, that really isn't gonna be very helpful.

'cause often the younger, often they can't be in their body often. Do you know what I mean? So, I can give you a great argument for why CBT is really great, but I [00:39:00] probably couldn't give you a great argument for why it would be good for my little 5-year-old that I'm working with. And I guess that's what he helped me think about is why did I want to do it?

What was it gonna add to the families, to my practice, to the service that we worked in? So that 

Julie: it matters that it's you that's doing the training. 

Philippa: Yes. 

Julie: And that you are not doing another time for training that 

Philippa: Yeah. It's 

Julie: you, your clients and the practice that together is there's never any guarantees.

I'm noticing you are using quite a, quite it is going to help those families, but certainly my experience is I can have a real belief in my practice of play therapy and I have that foundational training and I have a real passion for that as a way of working with children and young people.

But I can never say, and it's going to do this and it's going to solve that problem, or, [00:40:00] and it's gonna support that challenge. I can hope it is, and I can believe that it's it's been helpful in other similar cases, but I'm always sitting with that doubt that, I'm, we're gonna give it a fair go.

Yeah. But I might, it, it might not be what this child needs but 

Philippa: it's, I suppose it's knowing that it's gonna be more likely to, isn't it? Than Yeah, like I say, ccb t's gray, it's a gray it is a gray intervention. Great. But it's actually for the client group that I work with right now it, wouldn't, add anything particularly people may disagree with that.

Certainly CBT therapies might, but for me, for who I am for, the families that I work with, it's a, lot less likely than doing the building under underdeveloped sensory systems or doing so something along those lines. So I suppose that's what he taught [00:41:00] me was really to think about, why are you arguing for this case?

What is it? And really understand it, not just do the headlines while family therapy does this and this, but why does it do it? What is it gonna bring to your practice? What is it gonna bring to Cams as a service? What is it gonna bring to your families? What are you hoping that they will get from this training?

And that's and I still think that now. Yeah. Yeah. 

Julie: So when you are in a, say you are in a professionals meeting and with a new referral, and there's a sense of okay we, know this about the child, about the family, or this is what we are seeing externally, this is what the school has said.

So we've got the kind of referral information sitting there. And then quite often, hopefully there are several choices in an organization or a charity [00:42:00] or within a school where the resources might. Be drawn from sh Is this a thera, a potential, the play case, a sensory integration case using the bus model or something to do with Sarah Lloyd's work?

Is it life story work? Is it non-directive play therapy? Is it CBT? We've got these several choices, family therapy and that being able to articulate why you believe something may be helpful to a family. Yeah. Is that part of, the legacy of Dr. Lovett for you? Yeah. 

Philippa: Abso, absolutely.

And why not? Why it isn't the right thing, or in my view, it's not and this is only my view, but yeah, it just, it really helped me to [00:43:00] critically think, I think is the, is, yeah. Would be the buzzword, is that critically thinking. However, my family therapy wasn't, straightforward.

Julie: Tell us about your training with family. Tell us. 

Philippa: No I went, yeah, I went to Darby University. They paid for me. And so when I'd done my social work training, I'd again, been unstructured in it and often the weekend before wrote the assignment and just, I've pretty much sailed through.

But I guess the story was I sailed through because I'd got my mom helping me because she was already a social worker and she'd got the books and she was doing a lot of the work. Nobody I knew did family therapy. Nobody could help me, but I did. I entered the first assignment in the same way with the weekend before.

Crack it on with it at the time you couldn't Google much. [00:44:00] You had to read books, get them from the library. I'd found a few quotes, write it or handed it in. That was fine. And then hand write it. Hand write it. I know, actually I had to type. No. I had a typewriter. I had a like an electronic typewriter.

It was Okay. So it was a bit fancier than a but yeah, so there was, I had an electronic typewriter when I was, yeah, I don't think I got a laptop until I did my masters. So I, I handed this piece of work in and then I still can remember it to this day, I was called in to see that my lecturers were called Hillary and Gary and, they were sat on this desk and I was sat, it was quite a small room, and I sat the other side and my assignment was, in front of them and they slid it a little bit on the table and said, if this is the standard of work that you are going to produce, then this course is not [00:45:00] for you. I can still remember that word that those words really clearly.

Ouch. And I looked at them and then they slid it a little bit more and said, if you want to try again, then you can, but I can't remember what they said then, but you've got to really up your game is really what they were saying. I don't remember, but I just, so 

Julie: this is the first assignment. 

Philippa: First assignment.

I just smashed it out. Probably with a few drinks of vodka over the thing and smashed it in. Yeah. They were like, yeah, if this is a standard, I can still remember. If this is a standard of work you're going to produce, then this course is not for you. And slid this thing. So I guess for me, that was a moment.

It was probably one of the most pivotal moments really, because I I'd fought for family therapy to do the family therapy degree in cams. I'd fought to get into Cams i'd, and now here I was failing my [00:46:00] first assignment thinking I was stupid. And this was just, confirming that I couldn't, I hadn't had any help.

I had my mom helping me and, any, I had done this on my own and I'd failed on my own completely. Like catastrophically. It wasn't, I wasn't like a few points on it with a catastrophic, absolutely didn't answer the question. Fail, yeah. Yeah. And 

Julie: yeah. Or was there something about your family's myth about you coming True.

It, was evidence that, yeah, no, I'm really stupid. I'm really not up for this. 

Philippa: Yeah. So what did 

Julie: you do? Did you stay on the course? 

Philippa: I absolutely did. 'cause I thought, f you I am doing this. 

Julie: Okay. So that other part of Philippa that is 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: Resilient, knows herself, has a voice, wants to prove people wrong.

Yeah. Not wants to prove people wrong, but wants to [00:47:00] say, actually I don't know that is true. You found that and you resubmitted that assignment. 

Philippa: Yeah. And actually they said to me, if I'd resubmitted it, I would've got over 80% if I'd done the resub. Yeah. 

Julie: 80. But you had No, I worked 

Philippa: Really hard.

Okay. I worked really hard and then I worked really hard on all my other assignments. And I I, some of 'em are, I didn't do great in some of 'em. I did all right in, and I came out with a two one, so that was, all right. And then, so that really to, and then I had a really great, in the second year, I had a really amazing supervisor called Julia, and I just wanted, she was a social worker.

She still works now in Staffordshire, and I just wanted to be her. 

Julie: Ooh, okay. Honestly, 

Philippa: she was, she just portrayed [00:48:00] everything like she was together, she was calm, she was compassionate, she was knowledgeable. She, there was, and she was just, and so she supervised me for my second year and. We set up a family therapy clinic in the North Stoke.

So we did that two days a week and watching her practice was just, yeah, it was just outstanding. When you're like in awe of somebody. Yeah, she was she really, I really was in awe of her. She was just amazing at what she did. And she went on to do the practicum and ended up in a, service called Sustain, which stupidly they didn't have any money for 'cause the government doesn't fund and that to get rid of it, but was a really great service based with family therapies.

But, so I did that and I did med degree and then I went to a tier four [00:49:00] service, 

Julie: tier four. Tell me what tier, so that's a tier 

Philippa: four in camps. And again, I went for this interview. It's a hospital for children. 

Julie: So this is higher level need. So tier one? Yeah. So there's sectioned under 

Philippa: the Mental Health Act, 

Julie: right?

So there 

Philippa: was sectioned under the Mental Health Act and a eating disorder unit and loads of people were like, don't go there, it's it's terrible. You'll never, it will be horrendous. Don't go. And that bit of me was like I'm going there, aren't I? 

Julie: So I'm going, yes. Yeah. It was like, I'm going a country.

Yeah 

Philippa: So, 

I went actually as a train. I went for the job as a trainee family therapist. That was what they offered that there was, the role was trainee family therapist. And I went for that and I went for the interview. But they offered me the social work manager role. And that sounds a lot grander than it was 'cause there was no social workers there.

They'd all left. [00:50:00] But I, went there and that taught me to be less certain. Oh which Jonathan, Dr. Lovett, it taught me to be very certain and very clear and very critical, that critical thinking. I then went to tier four and it was a medical model. It was completely a medical model, and I was supposed to be the, kind of the social voice.

And I learned there, I really started to develop my understanding of attachment and system. So when I'd done family therapy systems was, and narrative therapy was what I'd been interested in. So they, allowed me to do some family therapy and still do some tr training there, but primarily my role was a social worker.

But yeah. So that taught me to be less, less certain [00:51:00] and to be able to incorporate. Different models that you could have kind of a medical model and a social model together that often they needed one another at these times. And it was hard. That was hard because the treatment was very cognitive, like the opposite of where, I, I am really, I still am, which is the kind of, I suppose in my body in that connection and that's probably why I do Thera play and, those kinda little things.

So the medical model at that time, I don't know if it's different now, but was very cognitive, will give a tablet, we'll give some medication, we'll give an injection, we'll put a structure in place. We'll we won't touch. There was no touch and I went there. Lots of restraints. There was a school. It was very, [00:52:00] clinical is what I would say.

But there was lots of people there who were really invested and worked. Really. It was a really hard job. 'cause you've got children who were very poorly and often very violent with that, violent, with that with their illness because they were scared and they were frightened and they didn't know where they were and they didn't know what was going on.

Julie: They could have died. Did any of your patients die in that time? 

Philippa: Because I don't remember that. No. I don't remember that happened, but they were very, ill. Some were psycho. So some on the the initial assessment where they were under a 28 day section, they they were.

Had extreme psychosis or really horrendous self harm and things like that. And the eating disorder unit, there were children that were on death's door and needing to be [00:53:00] fared in a way that wasn't was intrusive, I suppose it was so, for me, coming from a place of we need to communicate, we need to sit, we need to be to a place of, we're gonna give a medication, we're gonna structure the day, we're not going to we're going to restrain these kids.

We're gonna, and that wasn't that was what it felt like for me in a very chaotic, high stressed environment. But what I learned was, is that actually you, can, have a both and do you know what I mean? That actually sometimes you need medication. Yeah, to help therapy, to help somebody access the therapy.

Do you know what I mean? That they're, yes, they're so depressed or they're so anxious, or their psychosis is so bad that they need that medication in order [00:54:00] to then access the therapy that you can do, you can bring in and they we, did, you can bring in kind of the, touch and care and all those, sorts of things, but sometimes being held in a way that restrained them from hurting themselves or hurting somebody else was still necessary because, do you know what I mean?

And that was always awful to see, but sometimes it was necessary. Otherwise they were gonna smash their head open 'cause they were headbutting it so hard on, on a glass and. The only way to stop that was to hold them. So do you know what I mean? So, there was the both, so you could bring in that actually we can give you a a hug in a very controlled way.

But you can have that touch, you can hold hands. You can, but there are, and that was really important. But [00:55:00] there are still times when there needed to be interventions that stopped children from Yeah. From really, seriously damaging themselves. So that both, and I think I learned there 

Julie: Yeah. That, that less certain and that professional respect for other interventions, for other ways of, being with a young person when they're in such huge distress.

And working alongside other professionals. 

Philippa: Yeah. And working alongside nurses and the knowledge that they had and bought into that. And actually, I met again, one there, another one of my best friends I met there. And she we was still, she left there and has gone into Cams. But yeah, so it was a really important, I wasn't there very long.

It wasn't a place for me to stay. Some people stayed for longer. I was only there 18 months. The intensity. Yeah. And also it was a long way from home and I'd [00:56:00] got a young child and, you definitely couldn't do nine to five. There were very long days and it wasn't, it didn't fit with the family life really.

Yeah. So I, left there, but it did, really teach me that, that. You can do both. And there's often reasons for both. And it's about, I guess going back to that early stuff about what why are you doing that? What is that gonna add? And not just thinking, oh, you shouldn't restrain, you shouldn't give medication.

You shouldn't and I was probably at that point when I went there, I was only in my early thirties and I was quite we shouldn't be doing, but actually that taught me that absolutely. Sometimes these things are very, necessary. 

Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And then what happens after the tier four hospital?

From that unit? 

Philippa: So then, yeah, so then I [00:57:00] went into a, so I met Monica, Mike and Bridget. And Monica. Monica and Mike. Ran a independent fostering agency. It was very small, and they just asked me to do little bits of work. And at that point I'd started to do my master's at King's College. 

Julie: What 

Philippa: was that? And I want, I wanted to a research, so I needed to do some research. So what was 

Julie: your master's in Philippine? 

Philippa: It was in mental health of adults, children young people and children. And an advanced award in social work. So it was a big thing. But the, wow. But the last year was you we had to undertake research, so I'd been doing little bits around supporting foster carers with, tricky.

With tricky behaviors and trying to help them think about it. And Bridget [00:58:00] Mike and Monica wanted to think about what is the best kind of training for foster carers. So I just incorporated and I wrote a program and actually published the paper on it. And we yeah, and now everybody does it.

Everybody does these nine week therapeutic parenting programs, but back then there was only one, another one called Fostering Changes. Oh, I remember that actually. Kings College had developed, and again, I was really lucky. My research supervisor was one of the people who'd been involved in fostering changes.

And I got to go to the Maudsley and do really it was really nice. And my Martin. It was my lecturer again. They were really, good. And I, actually got a distinction in my, on my masters. So that was like, from, that was the end bit. I was like, I'm never doing those again. [00:59:00] Can't get better than that.

Julie: I done. And to say to your family, I did that on my own, nobody helped that. 

Philippa: Yeah. But I then, yeah, I was then in foster care worked in foster care and there, I honestly, the kids in the foster care is just. Just all that learning came together. It was just, and they were just so generous. I think 'cause when we were doing this stuff, it really, what attachment really wasn't on wasn't like it is now.

When we talk about attachment, certainly not the brain development stuff or anything like that wasn't therapeutic parenting wasn't wasn't nowadays. Everybody does it, but at that time it was still very behavioral, very. Consequence layers. And I was going to these foster carers and saying, do you know, let's not tell him off.

Let's give him a hot [01:00:00] chocolate today. Or let's just why don't you feed them block more often rather than taking away the podding? 'cause they haven't had the so I was asking them to do all that. And they did it, Julie. And some of them I like, I still keep in touch with some of them now, and some of 'em will say, I did used to think she's just talking Alex, but I'll give it a go just to, keep her, just to keep her happy.

So they did it. But that was that connection, that was that all that stuff that I'd learned along the way that developed these relationships. Yeah. Yeah. And they, did it. And I'll tell you a story. So there's this foster care that I'm still really close friends with now even though I've left.

And her first pleasant, she had two, two teenage girls. One was 11, one was 13, and they'd come from home. So they'd lived [01:01:00] in a very neglectful household for quite a long time. And this was their first foster placement, and they were very streetwise, very on it. And they needed a lot of new clothes.

So she, she'd taken them to shopping and they'd gone into something like JD Sports or something like that. And she said I have a pair of trainers, whatever you want. So this one girl had said, I'll have these. So the foster coach said, yeah, okay, you can have them. And so she said, yeah, but they're like, 95.

Quit. So the foster carer said, oh yeah, they were, but now they're 30 pounds, so it's o it's okay. So she's I don't want them. Then she'd obviously the, what we know is that she was trying to, get the foster carer to say, no, you can't have them. Which would, that which would go into all that belief of you not being good enough and all those sorts of things.

You know what, but once the foster carer said, yes, you can have them. It was like, oh, I don't really want them anyway. So she was telling me this, foster car and said [01:02:00] go back and buy them and just put them outside her bedroom door. So she's okay I'll do it. We said, I'll do it.

So to say, she brought 'em outside the bedroom door and she rung me later on. She said, oh she took the trainers in. I said, oh, is she gonna wear them? She said she might do, but I need to get 'em off the garage roof first. I was like, oh, okay, do you think you could just get them off the Gary Roof and put them back outside the door again?

And she's oh, okay. Then, so they get them off the Gary roof and they put them back outside the door again and, in they go. And anyway, several days later she was going the, this child was going for contact and come downstairs wearing them. Didn't say anything to the foster care at all. But later on the, support worker who'd taken them, let the foster carer know that she was so proud of these trainers.

When she'd got to, she'd got to the place where she was going and was really showing them [01:03:00] off. But that was just, I suppose that's one example of where they stuck with me. That they didn't think, oh no, this is not working. They just stuck with me. The foster cares. The kids went, I learn Thera play.

They came along and they like, they helped me and I'd say, this is really new. We're gonna have a go. And they just stuck with me. Even when they didn't wanna come, they'd still come and they'd still do it and they. They, yeah. And so that, yeah, that was really powerful for me. Learn learning about what trauma really is like in an everyday family.

That I think that's what I got there. What it's like living every day. Yeah. With trauma with, abuse with, neglect. And the challenges that come along with that. And the lack of services that are available. [01:04:00] And that sometimes it felt like we were putting a stick in plaster on something, but the resilience that the kids had, the resilience that the foster carers had and that they just went with me.

I honestly sometimes, I didn't know what I was doing. I really, I was just like, this sounds like a good idea. Let's have a go. And they just went with me, 

Julie: I think. We're coming to the, last bit, which is gonna be about where you're working now, but just, you say you didn't know what you were doing, but you were trying, you were doing some new things, but it was all based on, previous knowledge, previous experience.

You weren't making it up. It wasn't pie in the sky. Let's, oh, let's just have a go of that. But you were using all of that experience that you'd built up in all those previous situations to create that [01:05:00] parenting program, to co to think about how you were gonna work differently with foster carers to the way they'd been work others had worked with them in the past.

And because you built things on communication then you had their trust. Yeah. They thought you were completely bonkers. Why, not punish? Why not do a behavior model? Because that's all we've been used for. And it worked fine for me or whatever. But because of your relationship with the foster carers, they were able to trust you, which is exactly what you were then asking them to do with their children.

Yeah. To build a relationship of trust. Even though for the child, they're thinking that's a bit bonkers. Why is she buying me trainers that are worth 95 pounds? Nobody's ever done that for me. Why? Why is she doing that? That eventually that young person trusted that it was okay to put them on and accept them.

So yeah, just in our, last [01:06:00] bit, just thinking about where are you now? What, yeah. So 

Philippa: now, yeah. So now I work in a really great service. So actually when I was at the fostering agency, Merrill, who is my boss now of a place called Gateway Psychological Services, she gave, she offered me. Supervision around attachment and pace and all those sorts of things.

So, I was at the fostering agency all while my child was, growing up really. And it was it was gr great 'cause I could be around for them. And then in COVID, lots of things changed. At the end I thought I probably need to go and do something else. Worked for myself for a little bit, but there was just so much work.

Julie and I'm not organized enough. I just like to go on a win. So anyway I, was doing some freelance work for, [01:07:00] Gateway and ended up being employed by them. And again, they, the staff that I work with there just every day just teach me so much. Do you know what I mean? Like we have new.

Psychologists coming into our service who are coming out of, their training and, they bring that into where we are now. And I, what I would say about, Gateway is that they're really, good at of allowing things to flow, float and flow around. Do you know what I mean?

It's not rigid and this is what we've done and this is the way we always do it. There is some rigidity to it, and I get very irritated with all those processes and it drives me crazy. But that's just because I would be with anybody. But actually that free flowing of learning [01:08:00] of, yeah.

Sharing is really again, my practice still learns and I work more now with adoptive families. And again, the families are just. Because you don't there's oftentimes, I don't really know and I have to be honest and say I don't know what I can say is from my experience 

Julie: Yeah.

Philippa: From the other things that I've had or the other situations maybe this might be helpful. Let's have a think that might be something you can and, that kind of working with a, within a family is with Yeah. It's that alongside them and saying, this is my knowledge. That's your knowledge. I know that I, and I always having to think about this thing about an expert.

This is one of the things I was thinking about, [01:09:00] in the middle part of my career, there was all this thing around families are an expert in their in themselves and we have to say that families are experts in their family. And actually I was thinking about that. I've seen a few read a few things about it and I was thinking they are in some ways, but actually they're coming to you to be an expert.

And that's not about saying we know, but if I'm having hope and heart surgery. I am going to somebody who knows what they're doing to my, they're not gonna say to me, oh, do you think we should put it in this way or that way? Should we, they're gonna say, this is how it is. And I need to trust 'em 'cause I am in distress or ill health and I need them to have a knowledge that I don't have.

And I think that's the same for families. And that's not about saying they're not experts, but I think it's, about not, it's about saying, together we create something. Yes. Together [01:10:00] there's, 'cause I think if we say you are the expert, we are putting it back on them, but they're coming to us because they don't know what to do or they're struggling with something and, our job is to provide them.

With information with adv, and sometimes it is about advice and about maybe go away and do this. Yeah. It might not work, but have a go and come back and let's see that. So they are coming for some level of expert knowledge. Yeah. 

Julie: Yeah, that phrase, and I, remember when I was at the fostering an adoption agency, that was very often what we were encouraged to, speak with families about.

And the way I got round it because I knew I had to use some of those phrases was they know the day to day routine of their children very well. They know what they like to eat, how they go to sleep, what toys they want to take to school, the things they dream about. They [01:11:00] are the expert, as in they, they know their child really intimately and really well.

But, and when they come to us as the professional, yeah, absolutely. They need, something from us. And that's something can be, let's look at this together. And then how can I use my previous experiences and the studying that I've been privileged to do, how can I use that to help this family who haven't read the books and the articles and written the essays and done the research and all the stuff that I happen to have done as part of my career.

But absolutely not for us not to be shy of our expertise, to not be shy of what we know. It's I've, I have an accountant and I feel really weird saying I've got an accountant, but actually I get to a point in my tax return and think where I really don't get [01:12:00] it, I don't understand it. So I do need to employ somebody every now and again to say, Ooh.

Did you know about this and I don't know. And, but I need their expertise. Yeah. And their university studies and the books they've read and I've got a leak under my sink this morning. Now I know how to change a TA and I know how to do a few things, but this is really big. And I need to call somebody who really knows how to take a whole cupboard out and redo the whole thing, because that's beyond my expertise.

Yeah. And so just think, I'm thinking back to the beginning of our conversation where you were very nervous about having the focus on you and you've told your story of your career through the people who've influenced you. And I, could list all those people. I've jotted them all down 'cause I'm sure I'll hear more about [01:13:00] them.

Do, you see yourself as an expert? 

Philippa: No. And that actually, as you were talking, that was the one thing that was coming back is, that really, that goes back to full circle. I still every day feel have that imposter syndrome every day. I, think they're gonna realize, somebody's gonna realize she really doesn't know what she's doing.

And. Yeah. And but I also am very grateful and that and it's hard to hold. And that's the, and in both, isn't it? Because it's part of me that really still feels like that there's this imposter syndrome and that I don't have value to some things, like when I started going onto the third place steering group, I really didn't feel like I had a voice to add there.

I didn't really feel like my knowledge or [01:14:00] experience would be, valuable with within, that. Community and nobody made me feel like that. That was about me. Yeah. And about what I feel inside. So I have that bit. The other bit is that I have all this amazing contact with all these amazing kids and families, and I could see the growth that they have.

It makes me cry now and I can see the growth that they have, and I can see the part that I've small part. But the part that I've played in that, and I have this week foster care that I used to work with has messaged me to say, I wanted you to be the first to know, because some advice that you gave us has led to this for this child, and this is what we did.

And we held your voice in our head all the time thinking, what would Philippa say? What would Philippa say? [01:15:00] And we've been able to hold our position. And now this, is happening for this child. So I also know that I have this part. Do you know what I mean? It's, and I, not, a few months ago, I was coming out of where I work and a young man walked past and I knew, him and he was looking at me and I was looking at him and he is saying it's me.

And I realized it was this little boy that I, he's not a little boy now, but he was a little boy that I'd done therapy with for quite a period of time, and he just run up and hugged me. And that for me was just amazed. Do you know what I mean? So I know that there's, this other bit. Yeah, I so, it's hard.

I, balance the two, I balance the privilege. And, like I say, I could cry like with pleasure. Do you know what I mean? And gratefulness. Yeah. [01:16:00] Because of what I get to do. But yeah, still feel that imposter syndrome all every day without a shadow of a doubt. 

Julie: And I wonder if lots of people listening are also thinking, yeah, that's me too.

I'm in this role at Cams, or I'm running this therapy service, or I'm a student on a therapy course, or I've just qualified as a play therapist and I'm offering myself and people are paying for me to help their families. And that, self doubt is there in lots of us a lot of the time. And I often when I'm, when we are teaching with students say if you ever get to a stage where you think you've cracked this.

That you know exactly what to do with the family, that you understand what the problem is and you understand how to solve that problem with therapy. If you ever get [01:17:00] to that stage, then stop. 

That, 

is not any, that's no longer the career for you. That, that, that doubt and that questioning about the practice that we're doing, but also us doing that practice.

I, I think that's really common. There's research and papers all about Yeah. The therapist's self-doubt and how useful that is. Because it drives us on and it allow, I think it allows our families to feel doubtful, too adopters who will often say I we got through the approval panel, we are approved adopters and we're making a real hash of it.

And that's really shameful. It is how they can experience it. Having, whether it's imposter syndrome, doubt what whatever's going on in our heads, I think it, I'm really glad you've talked about it this morning because I don't [01:18:00] think it's talked about enough. 

No. Yeah. We 

talk about how grateful we are to be doing the job and how well we've been trained and things that excite us and, good moments and those moments of pride and joy when a family comes back and says, yeah, I want you to know this.

But I think alongside that we, need to think about what impact is that having on us and that imposter syndrome, that self-doubt 

That, 

I think is there, certainly in me a lot, even doing this podcast puts me into a huge sense of self-doubt. And you are not doubtful about that.

So we, it can be different. I think Philippa, if that's okay with you, this is a good time to pause and to say thank you to Philippa. Thank you for listening to this episode of Pondering Clay and Therapy. As always, please subscribe, [01:19:00] send us comments, send us questions. Tell us if you also have imposter syndrome and self-doubt about your work with families and children or as a parent.

We'd be really happy to hear that and, get this dialogue going. But for now we're gonna say cheerio, and thank you for listening. Bye-bye bye.