EP53 Behind the Quiet Child - Play Therapy for Young Carers; An Interview with Frankie

In this episode of 'Pondering Play and Therapy,' host Julie interviews Frankie, a recent graduate with a master's degree in play therapy from Roehampton University. They discuss Frankie's research on play therapy for young carers—children under 18 who provide emotional or physical care for a family member. The conversation explores the challenges young carers face, such as the burden of care, silenced voices, and systemic gaps in support. Frankie shares insights from interviews with play therapists and highlights the importance of early therapeutic interventions, advocacy, and awareness in supporting young carers. The episode emphasises the critical need for increased visibility and targeted support for these children within educational and therapeutic settings.

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Transcript

Behind the Quiet Child: Play Therapy for Young Carers; An interview with Frankie

 [00:00:00] 

Julie: welcome to this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me, Julie. And today my special guest, Frankie. Frankie, welcome to the podcast. Hello. Thank you. And Frankie, we know each other in another context. 

We do. 

Over the last two years, you've been one of my students at Roehampton University. What is it you've been studying at Roehampton?

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: So a master's in play therapy. Two years full-time. And 

Frankie: that just finished in July, two years full-time. And you did congratulations and you'll get to graduate in a few months time. Work-wise, have you managed to start a little bit of work? 

Yes, it came as a bit of a snowball, so that was quite unexpected.

But yeah, I'm working as much as I'd like to, let's put it that way. 

Yeah. Congratulations on that and thank you. So we are shifting now, aren't we? From student? [00:01:00] Lecturer into professional colleagues. And as part of that I'm gonna interview you this afternoon about your research that you did, so you and all your peers, and hello to all the Rohan graduates of 2025.

As part of your masters, you studied research and research methods so that you could read and understand articles and chapters about other people's research. Yes. We spent a whole chunk of time doing that, don't we? And then you get the opportunity to plan and carry out your own research.

And your research was about play therapy and young carers. 

Speaker 3: Yes. 

Frankie: Yeah. And it was an absolutely super piece of research, and I had the privilege of supervising that research, so I, know it quite well. Frankie, first of all, tell us if you can, what [00:02:00] does the term young carer mean? And we are working in a UK context, so tell us what that term means.

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah. So young carers are children under the age of 18 that provide emotional or physical practical care for a family member. Yeah, and it's mostly an agreed term. It's much more seen in western countries, but it is starting to get some traction in, in non western countries as well.

Frankie: As always, with thank you, within a research project, the first chapter is always about. Why you've chosen this subject. 

Speaker 3: Yeah 

Frankie: so what was it? What was it about your life or things that you were interested in that said, I want to spend. Eight months of my life studying this. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah. So I worked my previous life and my previous career was working with adults with lens disabilities and mostly in respite care.

And I spent a lot of time talking to [00:03:00] siblings and parents. And I had some really eye-opening conversations with siblings about. How they reflect back on their childhood as young carers and how they realized that it's affected their mental health and their relationship building. And that's always really stuck with me.

I then, I also have a close family member who's a young carer, so personal experience too. But when I in part of my placement, I had a young carer being referred. I did my due diligence and tried to research about young carers and play therapy and just found absolutely nothing. And yeah, I saw a gap, as you will.

Frankie: Yeah. A huge gap. Yeah. So that, that pers personal impetus something within your own family circles, but within your professional circles. Before [00:04:00] you did your training enjoy during your training? Yes. Actually meeting young carers. But it really interesting that you met Young Care Oh. People who had previously been young carers Yes.

Reflecting back on their now adults, but reflecting back. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah. And some of the conversations I remember them so clearly because the conversations. Some of them went along the lines of, I lost my parents the day that such and such was born. I remember not being invited to things because I knew I couldn't go.

So it's all of those kind of really big feelings. And, it's really important that they're going to therapy now and they're getting the support, but actually it's really interesting that it wasn't really a thing when they were younger. So yeah, it was something that's always really stuck with me, those conversations.

Frankie: So a sense that for you, looking back on that and helping them to look back on their young lives, that they, could have [00:05:00] benefited for some from something like play therapy when they were much younger and, in that role. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah, and the research talks about looking at kind of older adolescents and talking about therapy within adult, life and looking back, but actually play therapy's perfectly placed to support the children as they need it in the moment, so that maybe in later life they've been out to work it through already to a point.

Frankie: So our training, the training that you've been through, and I went through exactly the same training about 20 years before you, is primarily for eight to 12 year olds, would normally be our client age group, but of course we can work with younger children and we can work with adolescents, we could even work with adults.

But primarily we see play as the language in that sort of primary school age, four to 11, four to [00:06:00] 12. And you, saw the gap. The gap in the lit. Yeah. What did the literature tell you? Because there's that horrendous two and a half thousand word literature review. Yes. How did you manage to find two and a half thousand words to write about therapy in young carers when you knew really from the start there wasn't anything there?

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Luckily I had a really great supervisor. They helped me out. But yeah it was really tough. It, there's a lot of research on young carers and how difficult it is. There's strong links to depression and stress and isolation and interrupted identity development and all of those things.

And there's. The very short section was about the, positives. There are some great things about being a young carer personality trait development like young carers tend to be more empathetic, have [00:07:00] more maturity and resilience and stuff. And there's also quite a lot of protective factors that can protect the child when they're being a young carer.

There's also quite a lot about, young carers groups and the things that they are doing in policies and things, but there's just very little on therapeutic interventions and the therapeutic needs of these children. And there is a few mo more recent studies talking about early interventions, but nothing about.

What to do with them or who they are or what we do or how we do it. So yeah, there was at the end of the literature review view very nicely went, we don't have anything, we need more. What, is this? What does therapeutic interventions for children that a young carers look like? 

Frankie: So you really identified that gap.

There. [00:08:00] As you said, there are, certainly in the UK there are young carer support groups sometimes run by the local authorities, sometimes run by charities. Yeah, But I'm getting the sense that they, don't focus on providing therapeutic services. What, would, their focus be?

Can you just help us to understand that? 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah, so they are a wonderful provision for respite and there's a lot of research about how bringing young carers together can support our identity progression and their understanding of who they are and what, why they're maybe slightly different to their peers and celebrating that.

But. I've done a couple of talks with young carer charities in my local area talking about my research, and there are just some young carers in the books, on their books that need a little bit more than that. And [00:09:00] that's where it's important to, to look at what's there what's, more what more there is.

And some charities have kind of support workers for young carers. But. Therapeutically therapeutic interventions around mental health is seems to be a gap. 

Frankie: Especially I think as you said in the younger age group that might be thought about in later adolescence and early adulthood.

Yes. Therapeutic intervention. But there seems to be, or you seem to, find this gap about even play something like play therapy being thought about by the support workers. As a thing that exists. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah. And so when we went, when I went and did the talks in the in the Young carer network and charities, it's very much, oh yes, I didn't really.

Know about it. [00:10:00] I know that we can do talking therapies for adolescents and we can refer on to this and that, but actually there is something for that younger group. And that younger group is the ones that maybe don't articulate themselves and are struggling. And so it's important just to have that awareness that there are options therapeutically for the younger children.

Frankie: So you had your rationale reason for wanting to go and do it. You went and did a fabulous literature review, a sort of scope around to prove that there isn't anything that specifically looks at young, carers. And therapeutic interventions, and particularly the young, the four to 12 year olds.

Yeah. And so that very nicely led you into that wonderful sentence that we hope students can get to, which is there is a gap in the literature, which I now hope to fill. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. [00:11:00] Fantastic. So what did you do? What was your method? What did you, how did you go find something?

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yes. I interviewed three play therapists. I I used a creative method and I think it was really valuable. So at the beginning of my interviews, I asked the play therapist to create a sound tray. Now we do this as play therapists, trainees. We do it constantly creating sound trays to help symbolically express.

What we are feeling. And so I asked them to do a sand tray to reflect their experiences with young carers in the playroom. And I think this brought a lot of depth to, what we discussed. It they responded that it deepened their recall of their experience and help them access the memories and see themes more holistically [00:12:00] using the sand tray.

And it was very much an idea. That I wasn't seeking an answer. The study's aim was to allow the meaning to emerge. I didn't go in going, I know play therapists is absolutely great. Play therapy is absolutely great for young carers. So it was very much a Tell me about your experience. That led the way, which is why we went for qualitative rather than quantitative.

'cause it just didn't feel like it, it fit. The kind of exploratory nature rather than a measurement of, something. 

Frankie: Yeah. So I, and I think what you said there is so important for any research and, sometimes I think as a play therapist, I'm constantly a researcher and notice that. When I'm with my clients, I've been with clients this morning, and I'll be with clients almost immediately after we finish this interview today.

But that sense of I am not looking for [00:13:00] something, I'm not looking to prove something when I'm playing with my clients. Yeah. That I'm open to seeing what comes, seeing what emerges. Absolutely finding out, noticing what their experience of themselves is. So that phenomenological for the lived experiences.

Yes, absolutely. So that's because, it's not all researchers who are in the position that you are. You wanted to research something that was also part of your private life, part of your personal life. Yes, Quite closely. And. So was that hard then in creating your interview questions?

'cause you had as a loose questions that you needed to wander you wanted to wander through. Yes. 

Speaker 3: Yes. Was it 

Frankie: hard not to steer the questions in a direction to confirm what you've experienced? 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Oh do, you [00:14:00] know, it wasn't that because I just kept respon returning to, we know nothing about this yet.

So I just need to gain information. This is an information gathering rather than a decision of any kind. And actually the therapist that I interviewed provided such insight and experience into how they experience young carers in the playroom, that it was quite easy to take myself out of the personal and put myself following them through their experiences.

Frankie: So when you, when they created their sand trays did they do that in the interview or did they do that before the interview and then. Send you a picture of it or, you were in the room with one of your interviewers. Yeah. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: And so I sat there in silence and I did say you [00:15:00] can talk out loud.

We can do whatever makes you feel comfortable. So in each interview they did it while I was there. 

Speaker 3: Ah, okay. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: And some of them narrated and some of them didn't. And then the question at the end was, tell me about your sand tray. And that brought such vivid exploration and it, it was all of them.

Instead of choosing to be one particular child, I said, it can be one child, or it can be your experience in general. A lot of them all of them said I started off with one child, but actually they all have similar themes and they all have it's very similar. That was really powerful, I felt.

Frankie: So that sense of, even for them, their. Researching into themselves in the creating of the sand tray. Absolutely. And then in the exploring of the sand tray with somebody else, that is like layer after layer gets revealed. Yes. And can [00:16:00] be a surprise even to the person being interviewed. They don't know what they're about to say and what they're about to discover.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And Frankie, can I just backtrack a little bit about how, did you find your three participants? What was what was the rationale for them? Did they have to work with young carers? So what was, yeah, 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: so they had to have experience of working with young carers and B-B-A-P-T therapists, so British Association of Play Therapy.

And it was just through Facebook. So the university contacted BAPT, they put it on the Facebook page and actually. Goodness. BAPT just turned up. I got three people straight away. They were so humble and understanding of when I could do and what I could do, and they really did put themselves out there.

It was wonderful and I hoped to do that for the next cohorts to come [00:17:00] because it really was a fantastic experience. 

Frankie: Yeah. The sort of professional generosity that gets passed from one, one cohort into the next. Yeah. So, thank you to those three and to, to everybody else in the BAP community who has, contributed to research over the years because we, really need you and thank you for that.

And. What, so you had your interviews about an hour along each? 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yes. Some, a little bit more, some a little bit less, 

Frankie: but yeah. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah. About an hour 

Frankie: two on two on the internet, one face-to-face. And then eventually you get to some themes. How do you get from. This huge three hours worth of discussion.

How do you get from that to a couple of pages of, and these are my themes. It 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: is a very long process and it takes a lot of reflection and [00:18:00] self-reflection. It was thematic analysis. There's something, the work, there's a word before that, that I can't think of right now. Thank you. Okay. Do you know what that bit has been taken out of my mind 'cause that was the tough bit.

I think it's, been banished from my mind. Yeah, so continually looking at what has come up in terms of exactly what they've said noting the themes, noting which ones go together reflecting constantly on myself as a researcher because obviously. Because I have that personal side it's important to understand my biases.

And if, you, for example read the, interviews, you would probably see differences. So I had to make sure that I was able to really stand up with what came out and why it came out using the quotes and the themes. And yeah, what came out was quite poignant and quite [00:19:00] strong.

And hopefully makes sense. 

Frankie: Yeah, it did. It make a lot of sense. And I think what you said there is really important that it's not, that there are themes there waiting to be found by anybody, so that if you and another student had swapped data, had swapped all your transcripts, you'd have been able to come up with the same themes.

It's really important that you did your analysis and you are part of the. Developing themes rather than thinking of finding themes. And remember we talked about that a lot to develop things Yes. Things that are common between your participants, but also sometimes it can be things that are very different between your participants.

Yes. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it was really important to be transparent within the dissertation that there were some disparities, but also the, level of, a personal impotence I had in the data. [00:20:00] So I was very aware of that. So I felt at some points I was becoming like the fourth interviewed person.

'cause I kept thinking about my view on things. And I had to take a step back and go, okay, but that's not what I'm doing here. Let's just focus on what these three people are saying. Because obviously I'm not a play the, I wasn't a play therapist yet at that point. And also not a, yeah had a different, head on.

So it was really important that I continued to just be aware of where I was placing myself and my experience within the data. 

Frankie: But inevitably it's in there. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Oh, yes, a hundred percent. 

Frankie: Because you've noticed themes that are interesting to you and resonate with you. Yes. Yes. And you were, yeah.

You were a trainee play therapist, and you were working with a young carer, so you were working with it professionally. Yeah that's a, really tricky but exciting part of it is [00:21:00] not to deny that you exist as the anana, the analyst. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah. 

Frankie: Yes. But also keeping track of that and noting that, and I know you kept a reflective journal about where do young carers fit in your life, what are you drawn to?

And then going back to the colored pens across all those transcripts. Post 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: it's a lot of printing ink I printed out a number of times. 

Frankie: Yeah, and it's interesting 'cause I know you went about that manually. You, didn't get a machine to do that for you. You didn't submit it to AI and get AI to bring up your themes.

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: No, I am, I'm not a, I'm very much a manual person. I'm the person that sits there with a notebook, and so getting out and feeling it felt really important to me. So I didn't use the, there's certain reflective fanatic analysis programs and things. And it just didn't feel how I could work.[00:22:00] 

But other people did and it worked really well for them. So I think it's just. Personal impetus and yeah, what works for them. 

Frankie: So you came up with four things. I'm gonna ask you now what those will do. We've both got it written down, Frankie, so don't worry. Yeah, it's fine. This is a message to anybody who's ever does any research.

You're not expected to remember it all off by heart, and you can go back to your notes and find out. Just name those four themes for us, and then I'm gonna ask you about each one separately. Just give them their, main neck names. Number 1, 2, 2. Do you know, I 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: don't think I've got the names.

What I've got is the 

Frankie: okay. Let is the, 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: my version of the names. 

Frankie: Okay. I've got them here. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: You've got them in your. 

Frankie: Okay. Can I read those out to, you, Frankie? Yeah. And see if these make sense to you. So I've got the first theme you came up with was the burden of being a young [00:23:00] carer, that kind of emotional weight, having to be the good one.

The, hidden self. Yes. Yeah. In the interrupted childhood. That was all in that, first theme. Yeah. Sorry, I'm looking to the side. If anybody's watching this on YouTube, I'm looking to the side. 'cause that's where I've got it done. Up The burden of being a young carer. And then that second one, and I, just found, I remember when I read this one, I first saw it, it was really poignant because it, you've called it silenced voices.

Expressive play. Yeah. Yeah. And I was really interested that you didn't call it silence silent voices. It's silenced, yes. CED on the end. So I'm really interested in that silenced voices as though somebody else has imposed that silence. And I think that was really poignant. And then you have. On a much more [00:24:00] sort of practical basis, and I'm sure your participants talked about this, was the systemic gaps.

What isn't being seen, the invisible child and the systemic gaps that while it's meeting the systems are meeting many needs, they're not often noticing for young carers. Young, carers. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Frankie: Yeah. Their emotional needs. And then your final one. This was the surprise one, wasn't it?

This was the endings. And oh, it still catches me when I read it. That sense of it's never enough. The dilemma of ending therapy with a young carer because their caring duties have not ended. Yes, absolutely. Or rarely end. Sometimes they end with the death. Death of the cared for, yeah. The parent being cared for, the sibling being cared for, whoever that person is.

And sometimes that does [00:25:00] happen, but more often the young carer remains a young carer until the young disappears and the 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: They're just a carer. Carer. Yeah, absolutely. But 

Frankie: that sense of it's never, enough. Yeah. How, can I possibly end with this client when they're still in. The situation that's.

Potentially causing them pain and distress. Yeah. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: And, all of the people I interviewed talked about that emotional complexity and how difficult it was and when to end. The question of when to end was brought throughout every single interview. When do I end with this client? Because actually they're still going through it.

At what point do I go, okay, we, we've done our work here and we, I'm passing the bat on to the next thing. And quite a lot of talk was around what safety nets can we put in place, and also how do we support ourselves as therapi therapists? What [00:26:00] support can we lean on?

Because actually it was tough. It was really tough ending with these particular cohort of children. 

Frankie: So let's, that, that was theme four. Let's think a bit more about that then, because one of the things as. Play therapists and I expect lots of other therapists. When you're deciding to, begin work with a client, one of the things we think about is the stability in this family?

Are there other people in the family? Usually the grownups. Maybe an older sibling, but usually a parent, a grandparent, a foster carer who is able to support the therapy and bring the child to collect the child, support the child either side of their therapy really, be around for them.

And also we often look for has, the difficulty [00:27:00] the, experience. And is the child available for therapy psychologically? Yeah. Now with young carers, none of those are present. Yeah, absolutely. 'cause often, certainly is not in a safe, stable state because they have a, person within their unit that, that needs a huge amount of attention.

Yeah. And, so even, how does therapy even get started for a young carer? 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah, and it's, difficult and it was something that was actually put in the, third one that sometimes they're not turning up because actually someone else has an appointment that's more important because it's a medical appointment or something like that.

More important. It's not maybe the, right word, but there are those actual. Physical, can we turn up for this child? Can we attend reviews? Can we hold space for this child? Because actually we've got [00:28:00] so much going on. And I guess it's each, it's to each therapist's own understanding in each case and each family.

Are we, are they ready to take this on? And I know in, assessment meetings, that's something that is really important to look at with young carers. In terms of do you have capacity? Is it going to be to the detriment of this child to open all these Pandora boxes of how all these tricky feelings of all these difficulties?

Or do we need to wait a little bit longer and it'd be a little bit more steady? I don't think you're ever going to get to a hundred percent steady. So it's just working out where the time when the time's as ideal as possible, 

Frankie: so those. Perhaps unique challenges at the beginning of the therapy, but also unique challenges as your fourth theme said about the end of the therapy.[00:29:00] 

And, was there anything, thinking about that fourth theme and the, ending how, do endings work in therapy for young carers who are still caring? What were your participants saying about that? They recognized it, but what were some of their thoughts around that, that we could learn from?

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah, and I, think it, it was one very much. You need to have the support network for you in clinical supervision, something like that. So an awareness is, actually this is gonna maybe be tough, prepare yourself. 'cause I don't think any of them were prepared for how tough it felt for them.

But also things like safety networks safety nets for young carers. So then having. Real strong connections with the school, for the school to understand in much more detail than maybe they would do. The importance of young carers, what they are coming [00:30:00] to school with and having that person just catching them every now and again and going, are we okay?

Is this okay? So they've got that extra person at school just to touch base with and understanding that they might come back. And I know we feel that in, in play therapy in general. We say you could, we could, if it gets wobbly again we can, we are, we're not closing a door.

But maybe that parents and everyone else are aware that actually if it does start to get all wobbly again there is an opportunity for them to come back and have that space and that time. 

Frankie: Yeah, I that I can see that, how important that is. So being the advocate for the child, for the, in the family and in the school.

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah. And again, that went back to the finding three the therapist frequently becoming the advocate for, visibility of the child [00:31:00] how much they're bringing, how much they're coming. Yes, they're having difficulties with friendships and they just need to get over it 'cause they're right and everyone has difficulties with friendships.

Let's just think about what they're coming to school with and understanding that it's much more complicated than that. Or that they're the good child, if you will. And they're going to be quiet and they're going to say yes, and they're gonna be amenable and they're gonna put your needs before everyone else's.

But what that means to them and their emotional tolerance and resilience and stuff is really important as a, as a therapist for young carers. 

Frankie: Yeah. And I can see how it's almost like we're doing your analysis backwards, how the themes overlap. 

Speaker 3: Yes. 

Frankie: Yeah, absolutely. And I just wanna go back to that one about the ending where you said about the therapist.

Protecting themselves or the [00:32:00] ending with a young carer being particularly difficult. And I've never worked with young carers or I've never knowingly worked with a young carer. Yeah. And I, think we've talked about that. Why, would that be more difficult than ending with. Any of my clients, many of my clients, I feel, we've, not solved everything, yeah. Things have got better, but they're still not perfect. They're still, yes. Living in the housing. They're living, they're still, granddad is still dead, yes. Granddad died. Granddad is still dead. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Why, I'm interested why your participants said ending with a young carer client.

Particular protection and care for them as the therapist. Have you got any thoughts about that? 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah, I think it was that probably the funding didn't allow for maybe the ending that they wanted to. And, [00:33:00] or there was a few conversations about, just not knowing when to end and taking that to therapy for weeks and weeks going.

Are they ready? Are they not ready? Mom's got an appointment for something in three weeks and that might blow everything up again. So should we just hold on for a little bit longer? And I know the summer holidays are really tough and so should we just come back and see where we're landing? And so there was, I think there was quite a lot of.

When is the right time to leave and how difficult those conversations were. And then leaving and maybe feeling like one of, and this is spit balling, this didn't come up, but maybe feeling like you are leaving and you are being the biggest advocate for this child and that maybe taking away. That advocacy of is difficult if you're not leaving with a school system that understands them, maybe.

Because I think it's still quite an [00:34:00] invisible thing. It's still, it seems, oh yes, their young carers tick on the form. Okay. We need to be aware of that. But the awareness of the burden and the emotional needs of young carers is still 

Speaker 3: not 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: really understood and not really seen within the school system.

And so yeah, that advocacy probably helps you to feel as a therapist that you've been able to leave with someone still checking and still being okay, yeah. Keeping an eye on that child. 

Frankie: Yeah. And I get that then now about the pain and the, real discomfort when that isn't in place.

So you can't trust that is gonna be able to remain in place. 

Speaker 3: And 

Frankie: that's, 

really your third theme and your fourth theme together. The systemic Yes. Challenges and, then leading into that bit about the endings, and, what you said earlier in the introduction [00:35:00] about young carer support groups.

Just not being aware that something like psychological therapy using play. Is available, exists. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah. And then the funding to go with it yeah, is a perfect storm. 

Frankie: That's a perfect storm even knowing that it exists in the first place, that to be funded. Yeah. And then just thinking about the other, those, the other themes, the first theme and the second theme seem to be much more about.

Actually what's going on for the child? And the sec, that second theme, the one that you called silenced voices, and then the opposite of that expressive play presumably that came out of what your participants noticed with their clients in, the playroom, in what was happening in the room. Yeah. Tell us, a bit about [00:36:00] that.

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: And I don't think you said earlier about it being silenced from other people, and I don't think it is. I think it's them silencing themselves. Ooh. So it's, silenced. They've silenced themselves. They've suppressed their needs. They're so interested in being the good child. They need to be quiet while their sibling.

Has medical needs or has big feelings and behaviors that are, difficult and they just need to sit there in the shop when, it's difficult or they just have to be quiet while we're at the hospital. And what the interview the interviewed play therapist found was they found that non-directive part of play therapy really tough to begin with because actually I don't understand how to be the good one here.

I dunno what is expected of me in this [00:37:00] room. I need you to tell me the formula so that I can get your needs. Without and without really thinking about what their needs are and what their identity is. And so having that really, that space where it's so predictable. And you can do anything in here.

What do you wanna do? And they're going, I don't know, what do you wanna do? This is not how life works. I get told where to be and what to do, and my needs are suppressed by myself. And maybe others as well. Because I need to look after everyone else. And so having that space in the room has really enabled them to lay out what they need.

And, there was lots of talk around the emotions that they did end up playing out when they felt safe and they felt like they had that therapeutic relationship [00:38:00] around things like frustration, shame, resentment, all of those things that actually the interview Ease said that these children might never express verbally, but were able to express it through play.

And so that expressive play part of the, of the, name was how much they needed to express their feelings, but actually they were silencing themselves because their needs were seen as, as, quite far down and they didn't quite know, even know how to express their needs. Some, sometimes.

Frankie: Yeah. So that opportunity this is the, real crux of child-centered non-directive. Space where we say This is the time and space for you to do, I would always preface it with just about anything. Just about. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Absolutely. Yeah. 

Frankie: Yeah. You can do anything. Actually no, you 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: really [00:39:00] can't.

Yeah, we, wait a minute. Lemme put in these limits. 

Frankie: Yeah, let's keep an note on and thinking about our limit setting. Our limit keeping is so important for children to be expressive is to know that we will keep it safe. Yes. That we will say whoa, hang on. Okay. That's not okay in here, but I'll tell you what, you could do this and we re redirect.

We, we spend a lot of the training Yes. And practicing that with one another. Yes. But that, I can imagine what that's like then for a, young person, say an 8-year-old who is a young carer in their family, because say an older sibling has got. A, physical medical need and yeah, the parents are at appointments, their holidays are around the care and capacity of their sibling and picking up that it's not okay or there isn't space [00:40:00] for their voice.

And then how weird that must be to be in a playroom like you are sitting in, your playroom. Yeah, I'm sitting in my playroom. How, uncomfortable that in itself may feel. Yes. The young carer. Yes. To have somebody say in here you can do and say just about anything you like. Should we see what happens?

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Frankie: Yeah. Did they get stuck? 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yes. Yeah. And it took, I think it took a little while and quite a lot, including my experience. It took quite a lot to get them to express themselves and get and, help them to understand that actually. They can do almost anything. Lots of what do you want to do?

I've chosen that. Now it's your turn. And it's that beautiful empathy and the maturity and all of those things that is, a great [00:41:00] strength of being a young carer, but actually it also makes your own identity and your own needs go a little bit skewy, if you will. And so the non-directive kind of will just wait until you're ready to express yourselves how you want to express yourselves.

And then practicing that within the playroom in a non-directive way seemed like the power of play therapy with young carers. 

Frankie: So it was what was expressed. But way before that was that whole process of knowing and feeling and experiencing. That I as a young carer can express something to an adult without me needing to take care of that adult.

Yes. So that, that first chunk of the therapy, or it could be the bulk [00:42:00] of the therapy, could be just have finding your voice. Yes. A child with an adult, with that power dynamic that's there with, without that need to look after the adult. Yeah, absolutely. How powerful that must have been for those clients.

Then once they found that voice was there anything, I'm thinking about the second theme. Was there anything particular about what a young carer might typically express in their play that might in any way be different to children who are not young carers? Was there anything particular about their themes?

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: I, think it was there was a lot of words like shame. And the exploration of sometimes not liking someone and how that felt and loving someone that, [00:43:00] finding that difficult. And so all of these feelings that are really difficult for adults to understand and are in little little bodies trying to work itself out.

Actually I love my sister. She's really important to me. But also I don't love that we have to do this and sometimes I'm not allowed to play this or I'm not allowed to have this because of her needs or his needs or whatever. So I think it was exploring what that meant. And the, shame around feeling that 

Coming out.

Frankie: A sense of I ought not to be feeling this feeling. 

Speaker 3: Yes. 

Frankie: Yeah. And as we know in, in the work that, that the practice that we have as, as non-directive play therapists, that sense of, that's very rarely going to come out in a direct conversation that will come out through a story or a [00:44:00] role play or in figures in a sand tray.

It will come through a metaphor rather than when I see my sister, I feel this. It's like when the big monster comes against the little monster and the big monster is. Climbing the wall or whatever they're doing. Yeah. Little bit. It's, often in that symbolic distance, isn't it? 

Speaker 3: That, 

Frankie: that therapists will get a sense of what a child is experiencing.

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Frankie: Our clients very rarely sit down and tell us how they feel. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yeah, exactly. And I think what. Has led quite a lot of these young carers to be referred in the first place is they've pushed down their needs so much that actually it's starting to, bubble out and they can't keep it down. And so quite a lot of the people the interviews were obviously being, they were being, they, a young carer wasn't the reason they were for [00:45:00] referred.

They were referred because suddenly they're acting so differently to how. They normally act, they act as they're this quiet, shy person, but actually they're having these huge meltdowns that we don't quite understand. And being able to keep all of those emotions and suppress everything can be okay is a lot.

So just having that space and that time as someone in that trusting environment to have those big scary feelings. And the permission to do without judgment was, seemed to be really key for young carers. 

Frankie: Yeah I'm, always imagining myself as that young carer, what potentially a huge relief that is once that trust has been developed, that how hard it might be to get to that trust.

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yes. Yeah. 

Frankie: And then I'm thinking, going back, we've looked at four, three, and two, but that [00:46:00] first theme. That sense of being a burden. Being a burden. And also the burden of being a young carer, the emotional weight that you're carrying. That sense of having to always be the good one.

And you, came across a phrase that I, one of our previous students, I think, had researched on it the year before about glass children. Yes, absolutely. I've never come across that term. If you 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: haven't seen the Ted Talk, see it, find it on, find it. 

Frankie: Tell us about, 

the, this theme, which is around being a glass child.

As well, the burden, but also tell us what that term glass child means. Yeah. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: So not the point of my research, so I might get it wrong. I'm very sorry if I do Jill. But if it's being seen through. So it's not about being fragile, it's about being seen through [00:47:00] and having having to not be as seen within the family that you are in because of the other needs of, the people. And it's become a bit more of a a voice and I'm probably not explaining it very well, so apologies. But there's it, explains quite a lot of the children that, the people that we were talking about.

In the interviews It's okay. It's fine. Kind of me can mean and, actually how they're suffering from within. Some of them. And I think it's really important to say that young carers, it's a spectrum and there's some young carers that actually support from young carers groups and having that respite [00:48:00] and, they've got other protective factors in their life and, they're doing well.

But there. Those people that those children that just need that little bit more. 

Frankie: Yeah. So it's not making the assumption that because somebody is a young carer, they should have play therapy. Yes. I'm certainly not saying that. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: All children should have play therapy but no, that 

Frankie: an aside, that's another episode.

But yeah, that sense of, and I think you have explained that well, being a glass child. Doesn't mean that you are fragile that property of glass, but it's the property of being transparent, being looked through. 

And not seen, not being reflected back. 

Speaker 3: That 

Frankie: yeah. That you're not a mirror, you are a piece of glass that is being seen through.

And as you said there, there is a fabulous Ted talk about that. And so that sense of how as a young carer do you build your identity when you don't have others reflecting back to [00:49:00] you? What is being reflected back to you is that, oh, you are the good girl or boy, you are the helpful one.

You are the quiet one. Thank you for not being a nuisance. Yes. How 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: do you, and thank goodness for you, because actually. I, have enough to deal with the pressure to be the good one. Yeah. The pressure to be the one that mom doesn't have to worry about is, significant. 

Frankie: So how do you build your own identity as that child when you are being fed so much of your identity in a certain way?

So that, yeah, that first theme is all about that kind of the hidden self, that hidden identity and how potentially in play therapy for some young carers, that may be an opportunity to explore different identities, different sense, of self, different self worth for different values. Yes. 

Speaker 3: Not [00:50:00] just 

Frankie: the values that are being placed on you by family members.

In your role. Yeah. That, that you are more than a young carer. 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Yes. And I think that's exactly it. You are a young carer. We understand. Knowing that, and understanding that your life is at home may be slightly different to others. And that's why sometimes it's hard. Just like any label I imagine.

Identifying with that is really important, but also understanding that's not your own identity. And exploring the, other bits, the wonderful, other wonderful bits of you. 

Frankie: Yeah. Yeah. No, and so that leads us very neatly then onto. So record you, you did a wonderful discussion of how your literature and your own experience matched up or didn't match up with your themes.

So that was the big discussion part. And then eventually you end up with some [00:51:00] recommendations. Now of course, we could ask you if you were in charge of the budget if you were in charge of social services, if you were in charge of, the health service. What would under underlying underlie your recommendations, what came out of your research that you feel is missing and could be noticed?

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: I think probably the key is that for people to know that there is therapeutic interventions that would be helpful for young carers and. Young carers, so not adolescents, not when you get to adulthood, actually early interventions and be, and putting in the support in place when they're struggling, as within it, day to day is an option.

I think just having that awareness is key. I know that there's programs [00:52:00] going on in schools about. Identifying young carers and teachers being more aware of what that means. I think that needs to be strengthened. And therefore what they might present. So this idea of the good child, this idea of the glass child, what that means and how they might present in a different way, but that doesn't mean that they're doing fine 'cause they're quiet in your classroom.

And we don't need to worry about them. It's just that awareness of what that might. Beholding for them, and then again goes back to the budget to, to be able to provide sup targeted support for those young carers that are in need for it, in need of it. Because when I spoke to Young Carers group the big question at the end was, okay, great play therapy.

Amazing. I've got people on my caseload that I think would really benefit from this. How do we get the funding? And we all looked around and went, yeah, [00:53:00] I know it's bad, isn't it? So I think pots of targeted money that's going to the young carers charities or can be accessed by people in the know that understand and can identify the children that need more support.

Is really valuable. 

Frankie: So that, that having young carers, psychological needs for some young carers that have that notice to build the awareness amongst professionals and amongst families. Thinking about supporting families to notice without adding their burden. Yes. Having the information out there as therapists, as social workers to know that play therapy and other interventions for young children that involve play in some way using that child's voice.

Exist and are available. And that there are people in localities who can offer that. Yeah. [00:54:00] And then as always thinking, then how do we draw down some funding? Who funds that? Yeah. How is that made possible through charitable funding, statutory funding and so on. And if you had a message Frankie for therapists and professionals other, there's people on the, are listening into the podcast who are not therapeutic practitioners, but our other professionals working with.

Young people, children, and play in some way. What might be a message to them? 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: Oh, that's a good question. I think just notice and spend time noticing the ones that aren't shouting. I think that's the, thing that I got the most from my study was that that they're invisible [00:55:00] in society sometimes and they're invisible sometimes within their own families and they're invisible at school.

And so just having that awareness of how young carers might be presenting, and checking in and have, giving them some time is really valuable. 

Frankie: And I, think you've said too you've said many important things there, but that noticing the quiet ones, the ones that are not making a fuss.

And also using that word might, that speculation. It could be. That something's wobbling them. Could be that they're a quiet child and quite happy. Yes, absolutely. But not making presumptions that you are a young carer. Therefore, you might need therapy, but also not presuming because you're quiet, you don't need therapy.

Yes. Or you wouldn't benefit from therapy. So keeping that word might could be [00:56:00] possible. Potential in the mix all the time and seeing the individual child and their family. Absolutely. Frankie, thank you so, much. Thank you for getting your, dissertation published in an audible way. So hopefully now you'll feel that your dissertation is out there.

It's, I've learned so much from you about. Young carers about my practice as a therapist, thinking about families that potentially, and I have to 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: say, I don't put myself in the expert very much. The people that I interviewed were the ones that are amazing and I've taken my hat off to them and they've just been, 

Frankie: yeah, 

GMT20251127-141419_Recording_640x360: they were so generous with their time.

Frankie: We thank those three forever Anonymous, VAPT Play Therapists. You'll know who you are. And as always thinking about a piece of research you are [00:57:00] building on all the experts or all the researchers before you, you now offer this nugget of research and others will come after you to do more focused research.

So don't encourage you not to deny your part in that, that lineage of being a researcher. But for now, thank you for listening to or watching this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy. If you can subscribe or please send us a message, please do. We like getting messages, we like getting comments.

If you've got any comments for Frankie please put them in the comment sections, wherever you are listening or watching. But that's it for today, and we'll say Cheerio and thank you to Frankie. Thank you.