EP56 Towards a Play-Based Future - Eugene Minogue's Journey with Play England

The State of Play in England: A Deep Dive with Eugene Minogue, Executive Director of Play England

Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with Philippa and special guest Eugene Minogue, the executive director of Play England. In this episode, Eugene delves into the history, challenges, and current state of play in England. The conversation discusses Eugene's volunteer role in Play England, its evolution from the Children's Play Council, and the impacts of government policies on play opportunities. Eugene elaborates on Play England's new 10-year strategy to restore a play-based childhood and the organization's efforts in policy advocacy, including significant wins such as closing the smoking ban loophole in playgrounds and gaining statutory protection for play spaces in the National Planning Policy Framework. Eugene shares personal stories, insights into parkour, plans for future legislative changes, and the importance of community involvement in advocating for children's right to play. Tune in to learn about the importance of play and how we can work together to bring back a play-centered society.

https://www.playengland.org.uk/what-we-do

https://www.playengland.org.uk/newsblog/consultation-response-proposed-reforms-to-the-national-planning-policy-framework-nppf

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/proposed-reforms-to-the-national-planning-policy-framework-and-other-changes-to-the-planning-system/proposed-reforms-to-the-national-planning-policy-framework-and-other-changes-to-the-planning-system#scope-of-consultation

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:29 The Role and History of Play England
01:34 Challenges and Changes in Play Policy
05:15 Eugene's Passion and Background
05:28 Parkour and Play Advocacy
10:15 Play England's Strategic Reset
14:45 Policy Wins and Future Goals
33:01 The Importance of Investing in Children's Play
34:26 The Shift from Play-Based to Phone-Based Childhoods
34:45 The Role of Artificial General Intelligence in Future Childhoods
35:19 The Need for Systemic Changes to Support Play
36:19 Political Efforts and Challenges in Promoting Play
38:58 The Role of the All-Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) on Play
46:57 The Vision for a Play-Based Childhood by 2035
48:35 Strategies for Promoting Play in Deprived Communities
01:01:43 Encouraging Community Involvement in Promoting Play
01:02:32 Conclusion and Call to Action

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:29 The Role and History of Play England
01:34 Challenges and Changes in Play Policy
05:15 Eugene's Passion and Background
05:28 Parkour and Play Advocacy
10:15 Play England's Strategic Reset
14:45 Policy Wins and Future Goals
33:01 The Importance of Investing in Children's Play
34:26 The Shift from Play-Based to Phone-Based Childhoods
34:45 The Role of Artificial General Intelligence in Future Childhoods
35:19 The Need for Systemic Changes to Support Play
36:19 Political Efforts and Challenges in Promoting Play
38:58 The Role of the All-Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) on Play
46:57 The Vision for a Play-Based Childhood by 2035
48:35 Strategies for Promoting Play in Deprived Communities
01:01:43 Encouraging Community Involvement in Promoting Play
01:02:32 Conclusion and Call to Action

 Instagram, Facebook, | Linktree

Transcript

EP 56 Towards a Play-based Future: Eugene Minogue's Journey with Play England

Philippa: [00:00:00] Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me Philippa. And this week my guest is Eugene Minogue, who is the executive director of Play England. So welcome, Eugene. Thank you for coming onto the podcast. 

Eugene: Thanks for having me. Delighted to be here. And yeah, looking forward to having a bit of a deep dive on play.

Philippa: Oh, that's fantastic. Which is all our podcast is about really. But the first thing I wanted to ask you we have, interviewed both the CEOs and executive directors of play Scotland and the play board Northern Ireland, Alan and Marguerite. And, what I didn't realize is that your role is slightly different, as in it is voluntary.

There is not a, pay, it's not a paid position. So you work full time and so have a technically have a day job and then [00:01:00] do this on your own. And you don't really have a team, which is what England, where Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, they have paid positions and a team play. England is, you, is that right?

Eugene: Yeah, pretty much. But there's a lot of nuance to that. So to give a bit of a part history sort of playing England been around since the mid eighties really. Originally it was called the Children's Play Council. And for many years we was part of a bigger group in under the NCB or the National Children's Bureau.

So it was in that group in we had various sort of government grants that sustained the sort of organization to be there to do the policy and advocacy and the advice to government around, around play particularly in England and more broadly across sort of Britain at the time. And then things evolved particularly around sort of Blair government coming in and devolution [00:02:00] particularly to the home nations and other bits and pieces and things began to change where play England really became play England as opposed to the Children's Play Council was largely, but not exclusively in and around the development of the first and only national play strategy for England.

Okay. Which is almost 18 years old. So a whole childhood. It's now grown up an adult. In and around that, a time in the early two thousands, you had a lot of stuff happening. Dobson. Which went to Tess J and then there was work that was done particularly with the original A PPG on play, which was around in 2005 to 2010.

They really nudged that over the line. There was people like Ed Balls that were involved in the A PPG and then went on to become Secretary of State. And then we had the National Play Strategy published in 2008 which was a joint one [00:03:00] across, two, two government departments DCMS and what was the Department for Children, families and Schools or Department for Education in, today's money.

And wrapped up within that supported by 235 million pounds worth of funding. There was core funding for playing England at the time. Had quite a large team in and around that time. And then unfortunately the, sort of coalition government came in and put Red Line through the children's plan.

And the children's plan included things like the national play strategy, but also things like Sure start. So by the time plane got to 2011, that was. Pretty much it, no, no more sort of support from government or funding or other bits and pieces. And then the organization went through a bit of a, transition of seeking funding and trying to stay afloat and other bits.

But by and large, certainly over the last 10 arguably 15 years, we haven't had any funding from government with that. And then [00:04:00] conversely if you look at the other home nations and you've interviewed two outta three of them, they've obviously benefited from devolution. They have established relationships with their government and they do receive a level of, funding from that as well as our funding as well alongside that.

And their legislative context and their policy context is, different. In England, fortunately, or unfortunately, whichever way you look at it, we don't have an English parliament. We have a UK Parliament. So dealing with government is a little bit more complex. Through that can be a little bit more, challenging.

But as I'm sure we're about to discuss, we're we'll get there. So that's the context of play England largely. I'm in a voluntary role. I sometimes just about cover the expenses involved in my, role. But I do it because I'm deeply passionate about it. And I've got a, skillset which I think is adding value [00:05:00] and putting the organization back on the map.

And particularly with our new strategy has taken us back to our core purpose really and has now set the direction of travel, hopefully for the next 10 years. 

Philippa: Yeah, that was what I was gonna ask you. Why do it for free then on top of, your day job? You, must really love it or be passionate about it.

Eugene: I, 

do. Yeah. And I think. For me often I get asked this question a lot and I've, done something similar before. So for context some people may know me, but from parkour. So I've founded the governing body for parkour, which, and set that up from scratch. Ran it for 10 years, pretty much on a similar base of this complete startup.

Nowhere got the sport recognized both domestically across United Kingdom. I have to 

Philippa: say Eugene story are my secret passion. I love them every Monday. I look forward to their [00:06:00] videos so much. I love story. Yeah, they are fantastic. 

Eugene: Tiki Cappies out there. Yeah, I got a lot of time for 'em when I was involved.

Yeah, spent a lot of, time with them. And there's a bi di big disconnect between what they put out to actually who they are. They're actually. Quite a good bunch of lads. Really which is, you don't, that doesn't come across as there as well. But yeah, so Ram Park for 10 years.

Wow. Sort officially founded it in 2009, run it all the way through to 2019. Stuck around for recognition and other bits like that as well. But I did all of that over and above. The sort of day job got and then eventually it's, that's now core funded by Sport England being a recognized sport.

Oh, okay. So I had a couple of years of blotting around doing day job stuff, if I'm being honest. There was that burning desire in me around put my passion to purpose, and I've always been connected to Play England and the play sector anyway not exclusively, but [00:07:00] many, years ago one of my earliest jobs was a play worker and then I became youth worker and I wanted to sport physical activity and parks and recreation and wider stuff in local government.

So it's always been there. Plus whenever I introduce myself, I always say I'm Eugene from. Playing Linda, director, but former child and now big kid. And we are we're all, big kids. And there was something that shaped me quite early on with it all. I'm also the founder of a campaign called No Ball Games, KNOW Ballgame.

So a bit of a play on words really. And I remember quite starly, I was probably about 11, I think it was the summer that I was transitioning from primary to secondary. And the community I grew up was quite deprived. It was, I'm second generation Irish immigrant and it was Wind Rush and then some people that were displaced from the Troubles in Cyprus and other bits and pieces there as well.

So it was a real mix where we was growing up. We were deprived, but at the same time we had in hindsight now looking back, the opportunities we had around [00:08:00] play were endless and quite risky and really fun and the things that we used to do, children just. It's largely unimaginable to him.

I'm sure we get, onto that. But the thing that shaped me used to play outside my mom's house and there used to be a tree outside the front door and then one side of the house was just like a massive, literally a massive brick wall with the front door and a window above it with this massive wall chalk gold on the wall, basketball hoop, all used to play out on the street and do all of that.

The lady that used to opposite her house was there. She got the council to put no ballgame sign up on my mom's house. So I remember one day, it must have been about 30, this was a couple of years later after that summer it happened. And I got a knock on the front door, opened the door, and there was a man standing there.

He said, is your mum in who you? But he said to me, oh, I'm the local counselor. I said, oh, I'm campus. This what's that? And he explained it all to me and I said to him, that no ball game sign? I said, can you get it [00:09:00] taken down? And he said to me, he said, I'll make a deal with you. He said, why don't you come and do your work experience at the council?

Because I used to go to the local youth set of stroke sports center around the corner. He said, come and do that and I'll, I can take down for you. And, I played to him. He did. And that's how I got into local government and other bits of pieces. And it stuck. But it was this odd sort of conversation of a councilman knocking on the door and getting a snotty teenager go and do a you type thing.

But that, sort of shaped me really. And that was that thing around, okay. 'cause how he convinced me to do my work experience was really around if you worked for the council and they had people like you there who had the lived experience of growing up here, things like that wouldn't happen.

Philippa: Yeah. 

Eugene: I thought are you sure? And it, it did, and I'm I've been working in local government well since my work experience days since I was 14. So I've been there and you can, change these things and, society. So it's, really stuck [00:10:00] from that perspective really. So I think that's the passion to purpose type thing.

I need that type of thing to have a go at the system and 

Philippa: yeah, 

Eugene: come on let's go change the world really. One small thing at a time. 

Philippa: Absolutely. So, you moved from kind of park Hall then into to play and play. So what was the state of it? So in I remember sho start just ending and it was horrific.

It was again, I live in an area which is quite disadvantaged in places and sho Start had been. It had been a lifeline with toilet libraries and support staff and lots of resources really that went into communities and rural communities. And it just went, didn't it? They're starting to bring back now you family hubs and they are okay, but they're nowhere near on that level.

So that just ended. [00:11:00] How has it started to resurrect and where did you become involved in that? 

Eugene: Yeah like I mentioned earlier I've had this loose connection to play England for, many years, both in my day job. I'd often, referenced the really good work that they, they did particularly about risk benefit, the play chart.

There's endless sort of stuff out there from playing and that is still doing the rounds from, many moons ago. I've, got the privilege of coming into the organization and standing on the shoulders of giants who have been here many. Many, years before, before me. So I was connected and then there was this overlap between the parkour and the play world.

With it all arguably parkour is a form of play for Absolutely. One of the questions I used to get all the time when I was at Park was, how do I start? And the simple answer was, when did you start, excuse me? Used to run, jump, climb, put swing crawl all over all sorts of things.

Arguably that's parkour. But where it got a bit [00:12:00] formalized was one of the things that I had to do at parkour was write a brick standard for lease. The quid pro quo was, okay, you come to British standards, go and sit on SW 65, which is the one that looks after all the play standards.

So Ian 1176 and various sort of other bits and sit over there and you, do it. I was like it's, not really play. It's bit of plays, bit sports, bit of philosophy, all of this sort of thing. But anyway, I was there for. Sort of 10 years and then my transferable skillset. I was involved in like roller sports, children's play sort of stuff.

So I was there for a long time. And then, yeah, I used to go to things like the pace Play safety forum and the Children's Play Policy forum and other bits like that. So I was always connected and because I was play worker and a youth worker, I've always had that sort of connection. Like I said, I'm a big kid, so it's all the jots were just, joining really.

And then after I left Parker UK mid late 2019, I had that sort of transition of okay just doing the day job. And that was that passion to purpose. And [00:13:00] then I play England advertised for a CEO. So I knocked on the door and went, okay, I think I can, I think I can help you.

And then you get, yeah, but we haven't got anything. We haven't got any money, we haven't got anything here. I was like, yeah, that's fine. And they were like, you sure? I was like, yes. So I did this proposal and said, this is where I think we can go. We have to be brave and we have to be bold and we need to take people with us.

So we went through that process. So I joined late 22. We was having the discussions and then formally I joined in mid 23 on the basis of that strategic sort of reset, if you like what we was going to do. And then, yeah, it just went. From there, really.

So there was a, lot of groundwork that needed to be done with the organization, given the context that I've outlined. It was largely there. And great respect to the trustees for keeping the lights on, keeping the organization going with absolutely nothing, [00:14:00] literally buttons and fresh air.

And doing some fantastic work. It's not typical for trustees to do a lot of the doing with that, but they did and fair play to 'em and particularly to the trustees that have recently left the organization. Now that we've got some new governance arrangements and new board members that have come in.

But I do really want to put on record my thanks and gratitude to the trustees that were here even before I came in and kept the lights on and those that have been on that journey with us. I know it wasn't easy at times, but yeah, hopefully the proof is now in the pudding for us. So yeah, late 23 doing an awful lot of resetting.

Working with the board building relationships and other bits. And then where things really started to mo was when we published our manifesto for the election. And we had to get it out a lot earlier than anticipated because the election came pretty quick. Or a lot earlier people were anticipating.

So we published that on the 1st [00:15:00] of February 24. And between then and the election, we was having quite good conversations with what was the shadow front bench around where play is the gaps, all the stuff that we spoke about that it's just been abandoned. There's this vacuum what's going on.

Children have been left behind and particularly post COVID. And we was getting a lot of reception. And then obviously the election does, where the election does, it froze up a few surprises and other bits. So some people didn't get an elected that we were speaking with and vice versa. And then obviously people's jobs changed.

You have to start again, not start again per se, but you, yeah, you need to build new relationships. But we started to have some quick successes. So the early success that we had was, which really started the momentum we called for in our manifesto to close the smoking ban loophole for children's playgrounds.

So since the smoking ban came in, it's been perfectly legal to smoke in a playground, but not in a pub. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Eugene: So you point these things out and you get perplexed looks from ministers and [00:16:00] what do you mean? And then they asked me the question why I thought, I dunno, I wasn't in government at the time.

I said, but if I'm being generous whoever was made that decision at the time, it would've been it's outdoors, it's secondhand smoke. Doesn't really matter. But we all know children learn through learn behavior. They learn from adults. And what we do, and I'm sure you'll remember, you're probably a similar age to me, we used to grow up and used to have the old candy sticks that 

Philippa: Absolutely, yeah.

Eugene: Go round. And, we was mimicking mom and dad and other adults. Smoking biggest belief that you could, actually buy those now looking back, that you could buy fake fags made out of. Tab, but that's, where it was so rightly they said, okay, what can we do about this? You've got a smoking and vapes bill going through parliament.

Close the loophole. Okay, so you have these things and a real sensible sort of dialogue. And then that was hotly followed by some changes that we put forward for the National Planning Policy Framework. So we got a key amendment within that. We got formal play spaces recognized [00:17:00] within the National Planning Policy Framework, which was then published in December 24.

So it means places like adventure playgrounds, multiuse games, air escape parks recreation facilities, all the free to use sort of stuff that's out there for children and young people now benefits from the same statutory protection that things like formal sports places do. So pitches, courts, athletics tracks, wickets fields.

What 

Philippa: does that mean though, Eugene? What does that mean? 

Eugene: So there's a statutory protection now in there. So as an example for forever really forever and a day if you had say a sports pitch, football pitch grass football pitch, just generally a playing field, whatever it may be, or cricket, wicke, whatever it may be.

If a council or a school wanted to dispose of that or put housing on there, it has to go through quite a robust process to be able to do it. So it needs to prove that it is surplus to demand, which often these things aren't [00:18:00] 

Philippa: no. 

Eugene: Or that they will re provide equivalent provision in a suitable location as near as possible nearby with it all.

Now there are some exceptions to that. There are some cases where it is surplus to supply and we've seen that on certain sports, but those sports don't really affect two young bowls being one as an example. Yeah. Because trends change and other bits and pieces and you can see now things the boom like paddle.

But there's quite a, stringent process that you have to go through with that. Plus, local authorities usually have to have robust strategies in place to say, what have you got now? What do I need in the future and what do I need to maintain? None of that robustness has ever applied to children's playgrounds.

Philippa: Ever. Okay, so the park up the road from me before this, somebody could come along if the council and say, actually, we are gonna put 30 houses on there, or a supermarket. And the council, it would just go to planning and they would say yes, or [00:19:00] no. And without, but now what you're saying is, actually there's these safeguards, these checks and balances in place that are gonna protect that space.

Eugene: Yes, absolutely. So the same protections that have been in place for decades for sports facilities now apply to formal space, formal play spaces. Now there are limitations to that 'cause obviously it can, it needs to be designated. So venture playgrounds, multiuse games, air escape parks, they're defined play spaces within that.

So they're now protected in the same way with it all. So it means that local authorities have to comply with the national plan policy framework. Their local plans need to be what's called robust and compliant. I, it needs to mimic. The requirements of the National Planning Policy Framework. 

So that was a key sort of win for us around designating that and just getting those words play in there.

There was no reference to play in there prior to that. Yeah. There was only one other reference to children in the MPPF prior to that. Before yet we had statutory protection for [00:20:00] Batson Newts. It's just, so 

Philippa: what, just tell me, is the mp PF, just, 

Eugene: that's the national plan policy framework. That's the government's policy.

Philippa: Okay. 

Eugene: That is it. So every local authority has a local plan. Which must comply with the National Planning Policy Framework. 

Philippa: Okay. 

Eugene: Around it. So we 

GMT20260116-161013_Recording_640x360: got 

Philippa: power, so we're protecting bats, which are pretty they are important, but we're not, we weren't giving anything to our kids and spaces and things like that.

Marguerite was saying that they'd managed to get in that they have to provide certain amount of, space or 

Eugene: yeah, so they've introduced place efficiency legislation as part of the Town and Country Planning Act which I can come onto and where we almost got to in England. Oh, okay.

But we, are we've hit halfway points, so we got a bit of a concession with government. Yeah. So we had the MPPF change in December, 2024 which was really positive from our perspective. So I put a lot of, wind in our [00:21:00] sail shall we say. And then, 

Philippa: and those are big wins, aren't they?

I given that there was nothing, there was a vacuum, there was a massive, vacuum in England around play, spaces, around everything. Those are actually massive winds, not smoking in a playground and having that as legislation, it sounds simple, but I imagine that it's a lot more complex than just common sense prevails because you've got lots of things that go round it.

Yeah. And it's been there for so long. Change is difficult for ha to happen and it's been eroded away, hasn't it? 

Eugene: Absolutely. And this is about making children more visible within policy and legislation. That often the big mistakes that any government makes not just ours. And I'm generalizing here, but we as adults [00:22:00] design things for adults by adults through adults.

And we forget that we were children. One of the things that I said recently at DCMS select committee session was children make up 20% of our population, but a hundred percent of our future. But we don't design legislational policy through, through that lens. We often trivialize children and disregard them.

A prime example of that is if you if, you have had, have a look at the the Equalities Act, so the QUALITIES Act puts defined characteristics in there, age being one, but only if you're an older person. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Eugene: It doesn't protect you as being a child. If they had the same protection that they do by the definition of an older person as they did for a child, that would make a huge impact.

Because every local authority with big decisions that they make, they have to do an qualities impact assessment. Children are completely missed within that. So these are things that we need to [00:23:00] change. And that's where, we got onto. So mid 24, the play commission was launched as well.

I was fortunate enough to be one of the commissioners on that as well. So again, this started to build a bit of, momentum. And then by the time we got into January 25, we had the first parliamentary debate on play in 17 years. 

Philippa: Wow. 

Eugene: Just that is massive in itself. The first meaningful debate.

17 years. It goes to show how long children had just and, particularly children's play had not been spoken about at the highest, or even in our most democratic chamber. 

Philippa: Just wasn't spoken. And it's blowing though, isn't it? It's absolutely mind blowing when you think about the importance that play has for everybody really.

But for children particularly, it is the foundation of their life and to not have it [00:24:00] talked about in the most important decision making place for 17 years. It's not talking about breathing for do you know it re for children. It really is that important, isn't it? I mean it is. That's mind blowing.

Eugene: And that's a great segue into the next one, which is we published our new 10 year strategy called, it All Starts With Play because everything does Absolutely Learning music. Arts science or whatever it is, it all starts with play. And that is that was deliberate in terms of our strategy. And it's like this aha moment when you say to people yeah, that it starts with play.

Yeah. That it all starts with play. It should be the golden strength through childhood for all of our children in every space, in every sphere. Whether that's at home, whether it's in school, whether it's in the community, whether it's down the local youth club, whether it's at sports sessions, plays should cut across [00:25:00] absolutely everything with that.

So yeah we did, a parliamentary launch of our strategy. After spending a year diligently consulting on that, we went through a very robust process over the whole of 24 open sessions. Engaging with professionals from all parts of the play sector. Everything from indoor play.

Your play manufacturers play therapists. Obviously play workers adventure playgrounds and everything in between, really obviously children and young people as well. I remember that one vivid memory I've got of it is I, went out to Norfolk and done a consultation engagement session with children and young people.

It's their youth advisory board. And I remember getting there and they were going, csa could, can you, we, can we go first? Can we present our thing too? I was like, yes, as long as you don't call me Sarah anymore. So they've done their presentation and they told all about, we want more space, we want more time, we [00:26:00] want more freedom to do these things, blah, blah, blah.

And then I said to 'em, I said, look, I'm gonna leave my presentation, but I want, there's a few things I wanna highlight with you because I think you've not missed a few bits. There's some stuff that you just don't know. When I told 'em about my childhood, like what, like I was saying at the beginning, I said to him, I went there and did that and went here with them and this is what we did.

And they went, you did what? Square, square and you could see their mouths dropping. And they said to me, oh, I said, and social services weren't called, or the police said occasionally I said, the things I used to do in my childhood, absolutely. You could see 'em going, what? You went that far with your friends on your bike or you went down to the graveyard and picked conquers, or you climbed on the garage roofs and jumped off and it's Yeah.

I went to the local adventure play. What's an adventure playground? So you have to explain all of these things to 'em. I played in the street, we used to do run outs and Kirby in 40 40 

Philippa: Kirby. That's my favorite game. You can't really do it now 'cause too many guys. But Kirby is my favorite [00:27:00] game in the whole world.

There's not even curbs nowadays. 

Eugene: This is what I mean. Even my street, it's like there's only 30 houses, cul-de-sac. The whole street has been designed around, can I get a refuse collection vehicle down the street, turn it around and whip it back out. 90% of the street is drop curbs, parking outside, but people still park on the street as well.

Coincidentally, the hammerhead, which is. My industry, it's great for play and we put loads of stuff out there. There's play here, sign, there's basketball hoop, there's a football goal and other bits. And people come from streets around to play in our street because you don't through traffic and the others.

Yeah. But then there's not a single tree on the street. So the incidental, informal play spaces aren't quite there. Yeah, 

Philippa: absolutely. 

Eugene: And they 

Philippa: build on them, don't they? I remember in estate where I lived, we lived on a little estate, but there's lots of feels around. There was mineshafts actually because, I live in a mining community.

We, it's got in the old mineshafts, but there's housing estate now, and there's, it's just, there's nothing there. [00:28:00] It's all that space is gone. 

Eugene: Absolutely. And children need risk in their life. They benefit from it. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Eugene: If you can't engage with and benefit from risk, you can't learn how to manage it with it all.

And that's part of the problem where we've, just gone wrong as society. And I'm sure we've come on to. Some of that. So yeah, the our sort of strategy was published at a bit of a, Taz event in house of Commons in May. That was hotly followed by the play commission report month later on the second International Day of play in June.

So we had some real momentum and then a couple of weeks later we had our amendment to the plan infrastructure bill. So Tom Hayes laid that down. In there I forgot to mention, we relaunched the A PPG on play when we launched our strategy as well which I'm sure we're, we can speak about. So yeah, Tom laid down the amendments to the plan infrastructure bill to introduce place efficiency legislation on a [00:29:00] similar basis to what Wales and Scotland have got as part of the planned infrastructure bill in here in England.

Unfortunately, and or fortunately, whichever way you look at it, it wasn't voted for. It wasn't voted against. But there was a real debate in the chambers of 72 mps cross party back that amendment. So a real number of mps, over 10% of parliamentarians backed it. And it sparked a bit of a debate when it was laid down because the opposition were calling for a formal vote on it because they wanted to vote it through with it all.

However, the concession that we got from the minister at the time was that he would promise to make further enhancements to the National Planning policy framework to reflect the principle of place efficiency broadly within there. He didn't say that verbatim, but he basically said he would be further, can I 

Philippa: ask why wouldn't you like, as a, as me, why?

I can't understand why you wouldn't vote it, why you would not say this is, [00:30:00] why wouldn't you do it? 

Eugene: Okay. So me and you, so we are lay people. We know this. And the irony was. What we were saying to government, and it genuinely is, this is a no cost policy ask. 

The headline of doing all of this, children the whole purpose of the planning infrastructure bill is to make sure that government feel that they need it to make the amendments, and they do need to be reforms to the planning system to build the one and a half million homes that they've pledged to do.

However, we've been saying to government very clearly, to put this in a nutshell, children don't just need a home. They need a childhood to have a childhood. It all starts with play. The big thing with play sufficiency, it goes way beyond playgrounds. This is around getting the principle of play embedded across civil society, making sure that it's considered when we do big infrastructure schemes, small infrastructure schemes, how we design housing, incidental play on the way informal play, making sure that our streets are conducive to it, and we don't just [00:31:00] design around cars with that.

So the principle of place efficiency is, broad, but it's not this direct burden that it's going to do. And planning dictates so much of our built environment. Again the, going back to the evidence I gave at the c DCMS select committee in September, I said very clearly there it's the biggest leverage that we've got.

And that's something that we need to lean into and that I was advocating for place efficiency legislation, no cost policy asked, please implement it because it will reshape what we do. It's a once in a generation decision that would have generational impact. Going back to one of the quotes that I made there as well, I said to him at the committee, we must remember children make up 20% of our population, but 100% of our future.

But we don't design things through that lens. The easiest way to describe the impact that it would have us as [00:32:00] adults create the environment more over. We continue to curate that environment. All of us do. Some of us and the professional guys from planners, some of us right through to what we do on a day-to-day basis.

People like themselves and you, were you always creating the environment and continue to curate that environment with that. And that can be a small thing denying a play opportunity as a parent or professional, get down from there, don't do that. Don't jump in the puddle right through to a planner who would be designing a huge estate if they really understood the principle of place efficiency and built that in that is transformational.

Not just for children now, but children for generations to come. And children then grow up to be big kids or adults like us. And then you have the upstream impact of all of this. So one way of articulating it the national play strategy of 2008 was of that hill really, it was a 12 year strategy supposed to last [00:33:00] all the way to 2020.

Could you imagine if it was delivered for those 12 years? Funded to level that it was being what better state our children would've been in coming outta the pandemic. But we make these shortsighted decisions because it's adults making the decisions on behalf of what's best for adults. Not realizing children, you can't think on adults, you invest in children you benefit from it.

Upstream 

Philippa: and also the cost benefit. Even the cost benefit of it, you know that how much extra money has to go into schools and mental health services and family supports and all those things. Actually I'm not they're not all gonna be wiped away with play, but there's a substantial amount that if you can get that foundation right for children, that you can reduce a lot of those, things, just their body development, being [00:34:00] able to sit still, being able to climb up the stairs in in, in, a school, being able to hold a pencil play, does all those things, doesn't it?

It reduces anxiety 'cause you can make risk assessments 

Eugene: and more as our strategy says. It all starts with play. Yeah. That is the strategy in a nutshell, no matter what it is. That's where it comes to as our strategy articulates, you've got children grown up. Now, today, certainly the last two generations have grown up in a phone-based childhood.

Absolutely. We, as eighties babies was arguably last generation to grow up in a play-based childhood. And there's, opportunities within that. For the current sort of generations, arguably that's lost. We can get some of that back. But moving forward, children are gonna grow up in an a GI based childhood.

So an art, artificial general intelligence. Now, they're inherent opportunities with that because what is going to stand people out in the future isn't going to be what they can physically do in terms of their [00:35:00] labor. It's not gonna be their intelligence. Because if these two things are gonna be in abundance moving forwards, what's gonna stand them out moving forwards is their social intelligence and their emotional intelligence.

That all starts with play. 

Philippa: Absolutely. 

Eugene: And we need to get that back, not just in our education system, not just our children, but across society. Yeah. With that. And that's why we need to make some fundamental changes. But the irony is something like place efficiency. You ask me why they wanna do it.

Only the politicians can answer, that one. But I think there are some things here where it's not really understood. So the principle of place efficiency, you don't really need to spend a lot of money on play. What you need to do is fix the system, as we say in our strategy. Children don't need fixing the system needs fixing place.

Absolutely. Yeah. So we need to change the system. And if you have planners, transport planners master planners. Thinking about and baking in play. It's not just good for children, it's good [00:36:00] for families, it's good for intergenerational, it's good with those re reduced mobility and disabilities.

Largely, if you get it right for children, it's right for everybody else. Absolutely. In society. So this isn't just about benefiting, it's about benefiting people across that. So there's some bits there, but yeah. Anyway, so that was, June. Then it went to the Lords and Natalie Bennett championed it for us at the Lords.

So it got ret tabled there. Unfortunately, again, politics got in the way. It didn't get voted for, didn't get voted against. But that key concession that was made at the June amendment stage by Matthew Paddy Cook the mp, to be fair to him, he kept his promise and just before Christmas published further updates or proposed updates to the National Planning Policy Framework.

So they are out for consultation at the moment. So I'd encourage people to go look at those. There is a lot more references to play in there as well. Is it right? No, I still think there's room for improvement. It's good, but it's not great [00:37:00] in terms of that. So we encourage people to go read it, respond to the consultation, make sure you make your views heard.

We will be doing things where do, 

Philippa: where will people find that? Eugene, 

Eugene: on the Gov UK website. There, we'll also be information on the Play England website. We will give you some templates and other bits and pieces to, to do that, and we'll be doing our formal response. 

Philippa: And when is it open til?

Eugene: So I think it's open for a couple of weeks. Let me get let's see if I can get the exact dates for you. I know, 

Philippa: but if you just send me an email or I'll have a look on your website, so it's 

Eugene: open 

Philippa: to the 10th 

Eugene: of March. 

Philippa: 10th of March. 10th of March. 

Eugene: Yeah. So they're current, they're currently out on, the website gov uk.

So if you just search MPPF, you'll be able to find it there. We will give some advice to people to say, this is what we do. We'll obviously do our formal response, but below the line we can continue with government because we're actively engaged. [00:38:00] We've helped bring about, these changes, but this is part of the MPPF in whole.

This isn't just about play, but we continue discussions with government around how they can sharpen the pencil on this. Hopefully they listen. And, make good on the promises that they've made. But in hindsight, if you would've said to me 18 months ago huge, you would've got a change in 2024 and further changes proposed changes in 2025 I, would've bit your arm off, but how close we got place efficiency legislation was we within a whisker of it?

I was fairly confident if it went to a vote given the raucous in the chamber when it was first laid down I'm pretty sure they got over the line. Now, that's not to say it's dead. With that, obviously things are quite fast moving in politics. We've got king speech coming up in, in May.

Let's see what happens with that. So there's plenty, more opportunities to come, so we had, that was the summer sort of hiatus. And then we had the inaugural [00:39:00] A PPG on play meeting in September. So we did a bit of scene setting around all of that, set the bar quite high with members, said this is what the previous A PPG did.

But I was blown away by the response. We got 42 parliamentarians formally signed up as, members. It is in terms of sizes of APGs it's a big old one in terms of membership. In terms of that, so we've had three meetings now. So we had September, we had one in October, one in December.

Got one coming up next week, 21st of January. And are 

Philippa: they cross party then? The cross party? 

Eugene: Absolutely. So as the title says, A PPG stands for all parliamentary party group on that. So this is gonna sound strange. So in parliamentary language is an informal grouping, but there's a lot of formality around it.

In terms of the formality, you need a minimum of 20. You need cross party representation. And you need representation from both houses of Parliament, so Lords [00:40:00] and the commons, whoever the chair is. Not always, but typically it's someone from the government so we've got Tom Hayes mp, who's chair and then you have to have a vice chair from somebody else, one of the opposition parties.

We've got Norrel Howard from the Conservators. We've also got a couple of other vice chairs. So we've got Natasha Irons, who's also a labor mp. She's also chair of the A PPG on Youth affairs. So good link across there as well. And we've also got Vicki Slade MP from the Lib Dems, who's one of the vice chairs as well.

And then we've got everybody from all different parties and other bits and pieces. So it's, a real mix with that. So yeah, we'll have our fourth meeting on the 21st, then we've got another one in February. And 

Philippa: what is that for? What are you hoping that group will do? 

Eugene: So the A PPG is really around bringing parliamentarians.

Together around a specific, topic, so this being play. And then each meeting we have a themed topic. [00:41:00] So for instance, our inaugural one was seen set in mainly around Play England strategy the play commission, the historical context of the previous A PPG and what they did around the first and only national play strategy.

Then they agreed the terms of reference, which basically said we, yeah, we're gonna back all of this. October we had a specific session around place efficiency because that was a live topic at the moment. It was in the Lords and other bits. December we had one on playgrounds and the British play in the street, hot off the heels of the the budget sort of piece.

January we've got a session on early years and schools again, because of a parliamentary debate that is taking place on the 26th of January on making play statutory and continuous from key stage one. Yeah straight, away through. So that's had over 106,000 signatures. It's forced a parliamentary debate on it.

So we've deliberately brought that meeting forwards ahead of that debate to make sure, not just the A PPG, but we've opened it up to all mps if you [00:42:00] wanna know about this and. Come along to inform you in the debate, come along to it. And that's exactly what the APGs are there to do, is to give a broad spectrum of parliamentarians, real subject matter and expertise around the breadth and depth of the subject.

So each of our meetings are doing, the one in February's gonna be specifically on a venture playground of play work ahead of the National Play Work Conference. And obviously to discuss the acute issues that a venture playgrounds are facing. Again, that's something that I raised quite passionately at the DCMS select committee in September.

And then on the forward plan, we've got a few other things on, on the forward plan as well. So things like play in health services is gonna be have a specific session as well. And again, there was a recent parliamentary debate on the sixth, 6th of January, which was held on therapeutic play.

So we're aligning, with that and continue that conversation really. We've got some stuff coming up around [00:43:00] international Day of Play and also to highlight the home nations outside of Play England, because the A PPG is UK wide. It's not just an England Yeah. England one. So we've got our colleagues from Scotland and Northern Ireland joining us.

And also to put a bit of a spotlight on the International Day of play. We've got digital play coming up as well. So again we are, the way that I'd describe it is around building the corporate common knowledge around play because as we spoke about earlier, it hasn't been spoken about for 17, 17 years.

Yeah. And obviously. People only through politicians have limited knowledge around, around certain things. So when they speak about play, they don't have the full context and knowledge about it because people don't work in all aspects of the play sector. Yeah. And that's really our job as convener or steward as playing them to bring the whole of play together and go, okay, let's get the right things in, front of the right people so that they, we start to feel their corporate common knowledge cup around that.

[00:44:00] Because often, and this isn't wrong, it's just they don't know what they don't know. They default to playgrounds because that's, the lens that they viewed play through it all. That's not to say that's a generalization. So what we are now doing, particularly someone like Tom and others now, members of the APT have got a much broader knowledge and that knowledge is building out.

What we've gotta remember is people in the sector, we are quite impatient because we know what we know, but we, what we've gotta remember is we've got. They've got no knowledge of this. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Eugene: It hasn't been spoken about. There's been all this gap. That's why we're impatient, Eugene, is that 

Absolutely.

There's 

Philippa: just this massive gap. 

Eugene: Absolutely. And I think that's the bit where I'm taking a bit of brunt from it. And I say to people slowly, we're getting there. Let's build it out and build it out and build it out. We, I understand the anticipation. Everybody's yes, yeah, we are. But let's, we need to take stock and just, breathe and build out that common knowledge.

It is happening. And you can see now as a result of some of the things that I've highlighted, you have [00:45:00] other parliamentarians who aren't even members of the A PPG or even ministers now just freely talking about play. So Josh McAllister, who came in recently, he's the children for oh, I know minister, know Josh McAllister.

Yes. Minister for Children and family came in. He was on Sky News. We wanna get children off the screens. We wanna get 'em out playing more. Now where's he heard that? He's heard that from other colleagues. And his own lived experience. So just with that, you had a Alison McGovern doing the local government finance set, talking about play.

Last week you had he Helena DMO talking about play and playgrounds and in our constituency and how it's been eroded. You had, even as recent as this morning, you had Bridget Phillipson talking about the 200 million that's going into Send Investment being interviewed by a play worker, Amber, right?

Yeah. Interviewing her, talking about a venture playgrounds and where it, all fits. So the narrative is starting to build, a momentum is starting to build, and if you have these whispers and [00:46:00] these conversations, then it builds out. And I do have to put on record. My sincere thanks and gratitude to Tom.

'cause Tom Collar, all of his colleagues and others, and talks about play so much. So he, tells me these things that anytime he goes up to somebody that they go, are you gonna speak to me about play? He is yes, of course I am. That's, but that's his job as chairman. Yeah. A pt g on, on, play.

So we are there, but equally we need the sector to positively engage with us and the A PPG and also just be a little bit patient with we're there and we've got things on the forward plans and we have to respond to things that happened in Parliament and other bits like this week where we've had to bring things forwards and shuffle things around.

That's fine. But 

Philippa: yeah, it's gotta keep the place just as we come to a, close, what is the hope then? What is the vision for Play England over the next few years? What are you wanting? [00:47:00] 

Eugene: Ultimately the big prize is by 2035 that we restore a play-based childhood for all children in England.

That's the big aspiration. There's four key, so that's a 10 

Philippa: year plan. Then you've 

Eugene: got a 10 year plan. Yeah, it's gonna take 10 years for us to shift the dial on this because we've regressed so far with that, particularly in England. And England is quite populous compared to other parts of, the uk with that.

And they've got their own sort of challenges. But England, you're so far behind because we've like, we said many times, we've had this vacuum of nothingness for 15 years. A whole generation really. So we really need to, shift the dial and we can and it won't cost a lot. One of the things that I said at DCMS Select committee again was, and I keep begging on about it, so I encourage people to watch it.

But I said our ask as a sector is 125 million. Per annum needs to be invested [00:48:00] in play, not into play England in play holistically. That's where it needs to go. That is the uprated value of the original 2008 strategy or of the original 235 million, put 125 million context that is 20 pence per child per week.

That a pound a month. It's not modest, it's nothing. Absolutely. The benefits that we would reap upstream from that would be huge in our education sector and send in health and wellbeing and people's context. It's nothing. So for us it's around. We really need to change the narrative around stuff.

Philippa: Can I just ask you just a little bit about the disparities in communities really. So I live in the Midlands really and, so on transit. It's quite a deprived area. 

Eugene: Yeah. I'm in Darbys Shift, so Oh, 

Philippa: okay. So not, yeah, 

Eugene: and I grew up in one of the most deprived communities in London, so I know.

Deprivation. Yeah. Yeah, [00:49:00] it's quite 

Philippa: Versus my son is in university actually in Stratford, and they've got an amazing event. They, on the Olympic Park, they've got this beautiful space with, and you wouldn't really know you are in, London when you're there, there's a big adventure playground.

There's very few cars on the street. It's the, difference between there and when I go to work in Stoke is, Signi. I wouldn't let my child out. In, in some of those areas, there's. It's just unplayable. There's actually, Staffordshire is quite a green city. There is can chase and things like that.

But actually in the inner city there are actually quite a few parks, but they're not very well maintained in places. The the, just the street areas. How can, I suppose when you, I suppose when, I hear you [00:50:00] thinking about the money and things like that from being in the north, my first bit is, they're just gonna get in the South.

And how does that, how does, how do you balance those differences to how support children in play 

Eugene: play? Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that I can point to is I think what the current Go government is doing around pride in place is, welcome. And what I mean by that is they've taken a a process of allocating money.

So taking out a competitive bid process. And allocating it based on IMD data. Where are the areas that are most in need and how do they spend it? What is IMD 

Philippa: just 

Eugene: for people listening. Indices of multiple deprivation. So it's, on a needs basis an objective needs basis.

With that, then what they do is they allocate that money for a specific place within a place. So I spoke about this at the A PPG. [00:51:00] Some places like a borough or a city often have pockets or areas of deprivation. So some places have been allocated to lots of 20 million quid being able to spend.

So there's the big pride in place stuff, which was a I think there's about a billion or so that's been allocated in terms of that goes, out door. So then the place has to then put a program board in place, has to include the NPS to include the council, has to include local representation, and they make the decisions around what they invest that in, in that public change.

Where we've come in as Play England is to wave a flag, yes, for play, but broadly for children. We're saying, look, children make up 20% of your population, so make sure when you're investing in town center region, children are considered within that. Now, that doesn't mean don't put a tokenistic playground in over there.

What is far more impactful is if you design children into the region. The informal playspace is the play on the way the. The town center, [00:52:00] making it child friendly with that family friendly these are things that they can and should do. And we're saying to 'em, just have a bit of thought around these things with that.

Then there's a specific other fund with that. So you've got pride in place, impact fund. So there was 60 odd million that was allocated in England. So local authorities have got a dedicated allocation around doing some stuff around play, leisure, sport and recreation sort of stuff. So again, we've gone champion with play again.

Could they do playgrounds? Yes, but you don't need to, you can do other things for children. Children don't just play playgrounds with that, as I'm sure if you've got children in your own, you always had that up and down the supermarket hours where they all wanna play and skip. Yeah, absolutely.

Do everything. We need to give them the opportunity. So there's ways and things that we can influence government around. Things that will make things much more play friendly and more play conducive without putting the label play on it. So things like planning and [00:53:00] active travel schemes that are out there, region schemes that within there that's not to say that it's a either or.

This is about an and. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Eugene: So if we can get those infrastructure schemes right and designing children in, and then the end bit arguably where our sector needs the end bit is around the revenue stuff. And we want the same principle applied. Stop making our charitable and voluntary organizations go through competitive bid processes with this.

If we want to invest in play, let's do it on an evidence led basis, put it in the areas that most need it, and then build up and out from there. But we're starting from such a low base. We need to protect what we've currently got. So as an example, our venture playgrounds. Been absolutely decimated. The play workforce has been decimated.

We need to protect that first and then build out from there. We need to build that resilience back in to the communities that are out there, and also empower communities to do things for themselves and make sure children's voices are heard. [00:54:00] 

Philippa: And those spaces have been lost though, haven't they?

Because I remember there was an adventure playground where I, grew up in Stoke and there was an amazing adventure playground just outside. So Stoke City and we played there as kids, but it's houses now it's gone. So it's not just finding the money to do it, it's also then finding the space that's in an appropriate place for kids to access, isn't it?

Eugene: Absolutely. And it's not just about the space itself, how the children get from their front door or their school. 

Safely to there. Because if we can design our whole built environment round the car, surely we can fit, reverse that and build it round children. And if you build it around children by default, it's generally, it's good for everybody else.

So it's not just around the spaces, it's how we get from to and through those spaces that are safe, they're convenient, they support that, and they, they, lend themselves and they're connected. Whether that is to the bus [00:55:00] network, whether it is to their schools or whether it's through the park and it's safely lit.

These are things that aren't necessarily play per se, but they enable that play to happen. Not just on the way, but when you get to your destination or vice versa and on, on the way back. So the mobility of children is key for all of this as well. But we don't often join these things up. We do as adults.

We think about, okay can I, drive and get there? Yeah. Kids can't, drive. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Eugene: So these are things that we need to be and the greatest thing that happened to me as a child, my BMX, I was like, once I got that, I was like, freedom, yes. I can go, I can get there. I ain't. Get somebody else to take me now I can go do it.

And these are simple joys that we need to give back to our children and we've robbed them of our of their childhood and we need to give it back. So yeah, that's where we need to 

Philippa: back to. And that's just long term strategy. Is it, is that over that 10 years, is to find that play [00:56:00] is. Becomes integral into adults thinking in all areas to enable this play space play being walking through Morrison's car park, they can do the hopscotch on the squares or the whatever is, rather than just saying, we've got these structured play opportunities that you can be taken to and you can come home from.

And Yeah. And actually often there's a lot of pressure around to do it. Julie and I often talk about this free play, where there is no right or wrong. You can just be you can just figure it out. You can get it right, you can get it wrong and there's no stress on, it has to be in a certain way or at a certain time, or in a certain way.

And for children, they, their little systems need that, don't they? 

Eugene: Absolutely. Yeah. For us the easiest way to sum up our strategy, we wanna make play normal again. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Eugene: One of the key things in our strategy, we've stopped. Using the word permission, [00:57:00] children should not ask for permission to play.

Yeah. We as adults must accept they have the right to play. Moreover, we've got an additional responsibility that we are often a play enabler so we can enable these opportunities. And that's something that we need to, we need that whole societal shift around. And that's one of the key pillars within our strategy is around society and shifting that normalization that this is normal and then we should accept it.

Yeah. Not accept it, but celebrate it and enable it to happen more often, more freely and enable, like you say, children, to have those free play opportunities where it's freely chosen, self-directed, and it's intrinsically motivated by them, not by us or controlled. And that is the key difference between things like sport versus play.

Sport is adult directed. Adult controlled play isn't. And that's the unique thing that play has uniquely play is a, it's universal. Everybody has done it and [00:58:00] can do it. And b I'm yet to be proven wrong on this. Whenever you speak to people around sport or musical science, they tend to have a polarized now I hated it or I loved it, or they've got really vivid memories.

I turned up in my pee kit and I was made to do it in my underpants. At score, you speak to people about play and ask 'em about their memories, they light up straight away. They light up and it's yes. That real hu humanistic, altruistic, intrinsic thing that is inside of all of us is that instinct to, to play and that's what we've drum out of our children and that, and we need to get.

Back. I remember it was the opposite way round for me in the eighties. My mom would, as soon as I came in for school, she'd literally chased me out the house get out from under my feet, off you go, type thing. And then it was the other way round when the lights came on and it was dark, she'd often be calling me back.

It was my turn to go no, I'm staying out. Or can I stay out front of her 15 minutes? These are absolutely, 

Philippa: and there's nothing taken 

Eugene: away. 

Philippa: There's nothing nicer is there than being in your garden or [00:59:00] walking through the street and hearing children laughing, playful that their play or even arguing.

Yeah but there's play going on and you hear I'm quite lucky. I live in quite a rural village, so actually there is a lot more outdoor play that goes on. But when you are in cities or quite condensed areas, because that opportunity's not there, you don't, you, what you hear is cars really.

Lots and lots of cars, lots and lots of sirens, and you don't, we've 

Eugene: normalized that. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Eugene: And that is us as adults. 'cause we accept that as a societal norm. We the, way, particularly working in local authorities, one of my biggest frustrations is they see children playing as a thing to be managed.

Philippa: Yeah. 

Eugene: But they don't see things like cars or traffic to be managed. It's just, it's inside out and upside down. And these are things, these are cultural society norms that we need to change. 

Philippa: Yeah, and I think I just gonna sum it up [01:00:00] 'cause I'm aware we've been talking about, I do feel, I don't know if you do that it is starting to change, the conversation is getting through.

Julie and I have been doing this podcast for, 12 months now. And actually there are so many people that you talk to roots, Hillary Kennedy, she's on a parliament committee called the thousand and one Days about that, that very first early years that there are things that seem to be happening, but it's a slow process.

And I think when you are oh, you can remember what it was, and it's a shame that it's been lost, but it feels that there is some hope that it might come back. 

Eugene: Yeah. The irony is the memory's there. The, real opportunity around particularly the cohort has come in, they're broadly eighties babies.

Not all of them, but quite a lot of them. And they are the bridge between what was what we need to restore. [01:01:00] 

So they're in a unique position to be able to not only influence that from their own lived experience, but certainly they're in the corridors of power. So they have the leverage to go do these things and these are the things we need to point out to 'em.

Again, going back to my CMS select committee, I unashamedly told them you. Need to be the voice of children in parliament. Stand up and be their voice. 

Philippa: Yeah. And so people listening to this go along. I will put a post out and, put it on there, but go along and read that planning proposal, put their comments on, go onto your website, have a look at how they can support and play England to, to push some of the these forward.

And just maybe have conversations with their local counselors or local mps and just say, can we Absolutely. Yeah. Clean up this park. Can we do this? What have you got going on? And just be the voice of play of everyday people. [01:02:00] 

Eugene: Yeah. One thing I will say, our strategy is a blueprint, but it's also an invitation.

We cannot, nor should we deliver all of that ourselves. We can't. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Eugene: It's around systemic change at all levels of society. So use it, roll it up. Clip a council around the year with it and go have a look at this. All your mps and others rob it, steal it, use it, borrow it, whatever you may do it's there.

It's an invitation. Come, help us change society and restore a play-based childhood. 

Philippa: Oh, that's perfect. And I'll put all those links on the end of here. But thank you so much Eugene, I could talk to you a lot more about it, but we are running out of our time and I know your time is precious. So thank you so much for your time and coming on pondering play therapy.

Eugene: Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me.