Pondering Play and Therapy Podcast
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Pondering play and therapy, both separately but also the inter-connectedness that play can in its own right be the very therapy we need.
Julie and Philippa have many years of experience playing, both in their extensive professional careers and their personal lives. They will share, ponder, and discuss their experiences along the way in the hope that this might invite others to join in playfulness.
Pondering Play and Therapy Podcast
EP59 Exploring Therapeutic Life Story Work with Katie Wrench
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In this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy, Philippa talks with Katie Wrench, a social worker, psychotherapist, head of service at BUSS, and an author. Katie discusses therapeutic life story work, explaining its importance for children who have experienced disruption, particularly those in foster care or adoption. She emphasises the need to help children develop a coherent narrative of their journey, integrating their fragmented memories to understand their identity and relationships better. Katie also addresses the role of social workers and caregivers, the challenges of involving children in life story work, and the importance of maintaining memory boxes and emotional regulation. She further elaborates on the intersection between life story work and sensory systems in therapy. Katie's insights highlight the impact of memories and storytelling on children's development and the critical role of caregivers in this process.
Exploring Therapeutic Life Story Work with Katie Wrench
Philippa: [00:00:00] Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy. And this week my guest is Katie Wrench. She is a social worker, a psychotherapist, and the head of service at BUSS, which is building underdeveloped sensory systems and also an author. So welcome onto the podcast, Katie.
Katie: Thanks for inviting me.
Lovely to be with you.
Philippa: That's great. So you've written four four books. And I guess one of the, you've written two, particularly around life story work and therapeutic life story work. And I think that's a often a, topic that loads of people get into if you work with children and families who've had disruption or in foster care, adoption life story work.
Is often something that's bandied around from really early on, isn't it? And we in our service, often get people in their twenties coming back to [00:01:00] think about it. Yeah. So it's a massive topic
Katie: future.
Philippa: Yeah. Can you tell us what is therapeutic life story work?
Katie: I think it, in its very simplest sense, it's about trying to support children, young people, and adults develop a coherent narrative account of their journey.
Yeah and, that's it in its simplest sense I guess, is that if you've experienced a lot of disruption in your early childhood or there's lots of fragmentation of memories, 'cause you've got a lot of moves and people haven't held those memories precious for you, then you're gonna have gaps in your understanding and that has an impact on.
Everything doesn't it in terms of,
Philippa: yeah,
Katie: your identity, your relationships, how you feel about yourself and the world. So it's about going back and trying to fill in some of those gaps, not only helping children understand who they are, why big decisions were made about them in their lives, but also to develop a more integrated sense self, really.
That's [00:02:00] not just, this is the story of your adoption. This is your story of being in foster care. This is the story of your birth family, but one integrated. Story where children and young people have the opportunity as opposed to, to think about, what does this mean for me? And integrate that story so it belongs to them rather than just these fragments that they're told.
That's, the nutshell bit, I think.
Philippa: Yeah, and I guess that thing about integrator and bring it together is really important, isn't it? 'cause often children will have some. Live storybook. And it might have some pictures in it. Might have a bit of writing. Yeah, it might. Yeah. Have this is the school you went to.
Katie: Yeah.
Philippa: And they might look at it quite on a regular basis, so they know this is what the school I used to go to looks like this is what happened from an adult's point of view, why I can't live with my mom and dad. But that isn't the same, I'm guessing is, really being able to [00:03:00] have a sense of what my story is.
Katie: And there's a very big difference, I think, between a grownup writing you a story. If you're a baby or a toddler who's gonna be placed for adoption or in a special guardianship arrangement, you have no input as a child to that story. So it's the story someone else is telling you about yourself, but there's nothing about you integrated into it or none of your memories or thoughts or feelings about it.
And similarly, if in some areas, I think still what happens with children in foster care, for example, is someone will write them something, they'll give it to them, and then they'll leave it for the foster carer to, to share it. But again where's, the ownership of that story for that child?
Where's the chance to, think, oh, I didn't know that, or, that's not what I thought was happening had happened, or where there might have been misunderstandings or where children are told. What's happened often they make it up, don't they? They'll fill in the gaps themselves, and sometimes that is how things were, and sometimes it's not, [00:04:00] helpful to grow up with those misunderstandings and misconceptions.
And sometimes, let's face it, children have been given misinformation, haven't they? They've not been told the truth. So it's about. That's if there is, I say told the truth, there isn't even a truth. Is there? Yeah, there's always gonna be multiple perspectives on a story. And so for children to make sense of the fact that they might remember this or feel this feeling about that, or one might say something different and the social worker might have another view and maybe a pediatrician thought something different.
Bringing together all those stories. Is the work of integration, isn't it? It's not just, oh, here's the truth, this is what the social worker said. So that's the truth of your story. 'cause it isn't, is it? No. And it certainly doesn't include the child's perspective on their story.
Philippa: Yeah. And like you say, they can often make those things up, aren't they?
And I guess you started as a social worker where I I'm guessing, I'm a social worker too. We see children [00:05:00] move from, different homes, don't we? And. Belongings, were always, for me, a big thing that you could get lost. Or they ended up sat in a social worker's office for ages under a desk because maybe there wasn't a permanent placement for a child, or it was really a long way away and you couldn't get them there.
And I suppose all that is part of their story. Is that where you started to begin to think about
Katie: it? Or even, to be honest, even before that, my first job. When I finished university and at university, I did nothing remotely related to. Social care. I did English and French.
Philippa: Oh, okay. But,
Katie: but I did a lot of volunteering during uni and met a lot of children who'd had a lot of disruption to their development in lots of different ways in women's aid, house hostels, in specialist provision, education provision.
Oh. I went all over. I really enjoyed it and I came away thinking, these, this is what I want to do. I want to work with these children. So I worked in a children's home to start with. [00:06:00] And I think I was very young, 22, 23, clueless really. But with some nice ideas, I think and a, good heart.
And I was, I couldn't, there were lots of things I couldn't believe, but I couldn't believe it didn't even have memory boxes or photo albums, or we're going back 30 years. It's a long time I'd back. That's what I remember. I hope, yeah, I'd hope things would be different, but it really upset me that if.
Something special had happened, where were we holding that for them? So that's what, was my first thing? Shoe boxes in the airing cupboard on the top landing. And I got little boxes for them all to start just put. And that was just a knowing that's what I'd had growing up. I'd had memories kept safe for me and it upset me that they didn't have that really.
And I also really early on, felt very, privileged to be sharing memories with these kids and sometimes doing things with them that maybe they haven't done before, [00:07:00] teaching them to swim or go into the seaside or going on holiday. That felt like a really special thing at the time. It still does now.
So that's, where my interest started, I was trained as a social worker and then I worked in Leeds, and Leeds has a therapeutic social work team, and that's where I really wanted, I always wanted to head there and I did. I got a job there and I did my art psych therapy masters when I was in that team, and I was at subsequently assessing children for therapy.
These children in care would be referred to our team and I'd be doing my assessments of therapeutic need just as I'd been taught to do on my training. And then honestly, over and over I just had the A of. Children where I do my assessments and think, this child doesn't need therapy. They need a good bit of, a decent bit of life story work.
Why has that not happened? And why don't, why doesn't anyone help them understand why their brother's been adopted and they've not, or they can't live with their sibling, or they can't see that parent that can't, no [00:08:00] wonder they're upset and they're angry and they're acting out. They don't. Understand why we've all made these big decisions about them.
So that's where my interest started and I started to integrate what I'm making it up really as I went along. 'cause we, I didn't have any training on my social work course. I don't know if you did on life story work. No,
Philippa: absolutely
Katie: not. So I, didnt even do
Philippa: children. That's I Oh,
Katie: did you not? I
Philippa: know.
That was the one thing I wasn't gonna do was work with children. Katie, why is it important? So before we go on to, when, why do you think when you were noticing it, felt like it was important? Because they kids and they know that they used to live here and now they live there and they know why are those memories important and that what is it that, that gives children?
Katie: It's not that I always think that, that kind of little phrase, do you remember when, do you remember when we did this? Or do you remember [00:09:00] that? That little phrase sticks in my head a lot when I think about these kids. 'cause who have they got to do that? Do you remember when with.
Philippa: You
Katie: know, if you've got a brother or a sister or a cousin that you've grown up with, you can still, I still do that with my brother now.
We're both in our fifties. Do you remember when? And you rework things, you revisit things. He's a couple of years younger than me, remembers stuff I have not thought about at all, and vice versa. And you've got that way of trying to make sense of things and you've got a shared understanding of your experience.
And as a result of that, your sense of self is more robust and it's more whole. Whereas if you haven't had someone hold onto those memories for you, it, it's almost like you've got a jigsaw puzzle and there's pieces missing.
And, ultimately if most children like to hear stories about themselves.
Absolutely. Yeah. The same stories over in many cases over and over again. And somebody [00:10:00] has to hold them. Precious. Yeah. Someone has to hold them safe. Yeah. And I think as social workers, certainly when I was working in area teams, the things I recorded were usually the things that weren't Okay.
Not Not the good stuff. So I always say to social workers when all therapists, when they're doing this kind of work you'll find everything that went wrong in that child's file. They will find that when they go back and they make a subject access request. As adults, they'll see it all.
What about everything else? What about all the other things that make a human life? Yeah. The stories that are just special to that child. The memories people have of them, the anecdotes, those are the, those things always tend to have a really special meaning for kids where there's been a lot of disruption and fragmentation to relationships and memories.
Philippa: Do you think that's about, that's something about us being seen, isn't it as well? It's about somebody saw that this made me [00:11:00] laugh, or this made me sad when we watched Bambi and it was the first time and it made me cry. Somebody know. Me, somebody held that memory,
Katie: someone held me in their mind.
Philippa: Yeah.
So that I was really important that was an important moment for me, but it was also an important moment for somebody else. So therefore. By extension, there's a little bit of me that's important to them and we all need that little bit, don't we?
Katie: Oh completely, There's one. When I worked in the therapeutic team, I ended up managing that service and somebody that hired, looked after when they were very little.
Came back for some support as a young adult. And fact, when we realized both of each, we were both gonna be in the same place. Said let's just say catch up and say hello. And I'd not seen them for many years and I was we both ended up in tears, actually. Both actually. Very moved by what the other one [00:12:00] had remembered.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: Yeah. And I was so pleased he'd remembered because I knew that probably no one had written those things. There were little things like when I was doing my social work training, this little one always liked to wear the same dressing up costume. And, they said, I always knew when you'd been on night care.
'cause I worked nights when I was doing my social work training swapped to nights. I always knew when you'd been on night care 'cause you'd have washed it and it'd be folded outside my door already for when I woke up. Oh
Philippa: yeah.
Katie: With these little, with little wellies alongside those little things like that, that I at the time felt were really.
It sounds daf, doesn't it? But I was so pleased that they'd remembered that. Yeah. And they remembered going on holiday and us all jumping out on the mini bus and taking a photograph outside the, in front of a sign as we were crossing into another country. A photograph outside that sign.
Yeah I, remembered that too. Yeah. Do you remember when did it's, do you [00:13:00] remember when again? Isn't it? Yeah. Is that, do you remember when. Yeah, it's such a powerful thing, really, and powerful to think that somebody's taken the time to. Remember that on your behalf if you're too if you're too little to remember to have a verbal memory of it.
Yeah. If somebody took time to write that down. Again, when I'm training a foster carers I'm always saying, if you were doing the memory box, brilliant, but where's the story attached to the item or the object in that box? It's no good just having a pile of cards or certificate. Get a little luggage label, tie it on and write the story.
Philippa: Yeah. Yeah.
Katie: Because we hope that you will be there to tell that story in the future, but you might not. That's the reality. You might not. So keep it.
Philippa: Yeah,
Katie: do it special.
Philippa: And I guess it also. For social workers writing in, their notes the good stuff, isn't it? Because often in assessments we'll get the child [00:14:00] placement record or something like that.
That's detailed. All the reasons. Why they've come into care. And if I can, I like to go and read the the actual file.
Because sometimes you find those moments that sad, they went to the beach this weekend, and that's not often in that placement record because
Katie: No,
Philippa: we are gathering evidence of.
Why a child needs to be kept safe. And that's not to take away from all that sort of stuff. We need to keep children safe and we need to do all those sorts of things. But I think that bit of having spread in that actually stressed this, it isn't all bad. It might not be good enough for them to stay there, but there's often moments isn't there?
Yeah. Where yeah. They've gone to the school play and been really proud of them in the school play. Or they've gone to Blackpool and looked at [00:15:00] the lights or parents have said, oh no, their favorite food is, and we always have that on a Friday. Those are moments aren't they, that say you for children who are being cared for away from their birth families.
Actually, my birth family. Did know me. They did value, even though they couldn't do stuff, there was still this other bit there.
Katie: Yeah. I always call them threads of positive connection.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: That you want to find those threads for adopted children and children in foster care so that the only stories that they have about the birth family and therefore that part of themselves are not all bad.
Philippa: Yeah,
Katie: absolutely. And sometimes you might find some lovely big things like the ones you've described. Sometimes they might be little things like, oh, your favorite tea is pizza. And I think you, I love a pepperoni pizza too. Might be something little or the color of your eyes, or I don't know the music yet.
It doesn't have to be something massive.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: But it does, there does have to, we do have to work [00:16:00] really hard, I think, to find that. The other thing I was thinking when you were talking though is that I train, social workers most Wednesdays to do. Life story work. And I do think, certainly since I was practicing as a social worker, the way in which records are kept and recorded has really improved a lot more.
Yeah. Social workers are writing the record to the child
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: And having much more awareness of the fact that this is something that they will, they have a right to see.
Philippa: Yeah. Yeah.
Katie: And that there is more strengths focused. Work happening than certainly when I was first trained. Which is all really positive, isn't it?
'cause it means that you've, got much more chance that child will have a. A much more rounded sense of themselves.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: It's not to say you sanitize the bits that were not great, but there were other bits too.
Philippa: There's an and both, isn't there? Yeah. There's both.
Katie: Yeah.
Yeah,
Philippa: yeah.
I suppose the other thing that I wonder is, about how we, [00:17:00] 'cause often like FA families or social workers professionals might think actually if we, Involve the child too much. It's gonna upset them, it's gonna, it's gonna make it worse. It's gonna hurt them. Yeah. Or whatever.
Katie: Yeah.
Philippa: What, but what about involving children in, the questions? 'cause sometimes I think as adults we think they might know, need to know some things, but maybe,
Katie: yeah.
Philippa: They have a different view of what they want to know at this
Katie: stage. Yeah. Yeah, and I think my sense of what a good bit of life of therapeutic life story work is and should be is that it's not just about information sharing.
So that, that thing that you just said about people worrying about making things worse, I think is the biggest barrier to good life story work happening that practitioners, families, foster carers. Parents, social workers think, oh God, it's [00:18:00] gonna really upset them to know this. This is really upsetting information.
And especially if they were removed when they were teeny tiny and they've not got verbal memories of what happened. Why, do they need to why do they need to know that they don't remember it? All of that kind of stuff. I think there's a piece. Initially that's just a bit around psychoeducation about the impact of trauma and how traumatic memories are stored and that idea that they don't just go away and just 'cause you don't have a verbal memory of it.
They are still there. It's stored in your brain and your body. And we work with a lot of adoptees here. We removed at. Birth and potentially placed on early permanence plans at days old and are still living with the repercussions of the Innu neutral experience and ongoing high levels of family time.
So it's not, if only it was as simple as they don't remember it. Life would be a lot easier for a lot of people, but we know it's not like that. So I think my kind of approach to life story work is very simple. It has three stages to it, and the [00:19:00] information sharing and integration bit the answer in the questions is the third part of that model.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: The first bit is about really focusing on how we help it feel safe enough. For children and their carers or parents to go back and think about very traumatic stuff, and that's all that stuff that we need that's important just for daily living, not just for life story work, but about how do we help those children feel safe enough in their brains, their bodies, and their relationships, that when we do start to talk about that really traumatic stuff, the world is not going to fall apart.
That child and their caregiver are well enough resourced. To be able to withstand any wobbles, any distress, any rage that comes. And unfortunately what we, know from, for lots of children in foster care and special guardianship and adoption is emotional regulation is tricky.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: Co-regulation is tricky of regulation is would be a really lovely to [00:20:00] have, but we're nowhere near. So that I think is where we need to start. And if we do that piece well and we look to see developmentally where is this child functioning in terms of relationships and safety and emotion regulation, bodily regulation, if we look at all of that first and we get that as good as it can be from that platform.
Yes they, may well still be really upset. We're gonna think and talk about difficult things, but the relationship they've got with their parent or carer should be robust enough to withstand that stress.
Philippa: And in some ways, I guess going through that with someone, having it witnessed is often important, isn't it?
If we, I often think about if you have a car accident, you have to tell that story over and over again, don't you? 'cause you need it witnessed by all the important people in your life and you need their reactions. And that helps you process your own [00:21:00] feelings, your own grief, your own fear.
Katie: Yeah.
Philippa: All those sorts of things and
Katie: completely,
Philippa: yeah. And that witnessing is really important. 'cause I guess kids know that they aren't with their birth families, even if it was at days old and you can you, fill the gaps in, don't you?
Katie: You do and I think it's one of the what for exactly the reasons you've just described.
It's why I think that in an ideal world, this is a diadic piece of work. It's a piece of work that happens with parent slash carer and child together in a room. You've got your parent or carer there, hopefully as. Shortcut to safety 'cause they're the ones available for co-regulation.
They're the ones available in between sessions to pick upon conversations. And once you do get to the bit that's about information sharing and trying to, think about unpick that child's memories as well and get their perspective on the story. We can't be silly enough to think that the processing of that material only [00:22:00] happens when they're in a room with one of us.
Yeah. Because it doesn't, does it continues to happen in the spaces in between, which is why it's so, important that parents and carers are seen as and appreciated as the main agents have changed in that process because they're the, ones that know the child best. They're the ones that are available.
I, I've made a complete kind of about, and I think when I first started as working as a social worker and a therapeutic social worker and a therapist, the idea of having an adult, another adult in the room with me was terrifying, frankly, 'cause I wasn't that confident maybe in what I was doing.
And there's another grownup watching me. Whereas now I've done a complete about turn and I just think. Here I've got another adult who knows that child better than me who could, who's my ally. You can think and plan together. You can work out together, especially when it comes to what are you sharing and how are you sharing it?
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: Making those decisions about what level of information is appropriate for a child. Of this [00:23:00] age and developmental stage, what will they be able to understand? What's enough that they can make sense of their story without being so much that it's not developmentally appropriate or it's too much information, they won't be able to manage it.
The best person to make those decisions with is their parent or carer. I'd ne I would never do that unilaterally 'cause think it's too dangerous. You risk doing harm, don't you, if you are not thoughtful about those things. And similarly, just the language you use to explain things and knowing what's already been said so that you can build on that and that whatever you do agree that you're gonna say with that parent or carer.
Is acceptable to them. They feel okay with managing that aftermath. Yeah. And managing what happens in between. So it's so important that parents are an integral part of that process, I think. And I know that's sometimes harder, but lots of different reasons, but. That, that for me is the gold standard where we can do it.
Philippa: And I guess gathering that information and [00:24:00] 'cause sometimes as a therapist you might gather, or even as a social worker, I suppose you might gather information that maybe the parent didn't have or didn't know at that and, yeah. So you want them to be able to process it first, I'm guessing completely for some
GMT20260116-142042_Recording_640x360: completely.
Philippa: Sometimes certainly working with adopters and foster carers, they might read the child's history initially, but then they just get on with the job of parenting them. And when you are coming back to do life story work and you then really have to think about the information, it can hit you hard.
'cause you are now in a different relationship with this child, aren't you?
Katie: You, know this child's parent and you love him.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: And it's upsetting enough just reading it, isn't it for anyone? But you can read it in that one step removed kind of way before you've met them. But then when you look, you love them and, you care for them and you're there every day.
I think I hear a lot of adopted parents experiencing a lot of upset actually, [00:25:00] that they weren't there to protect the child at the time. That somebody not so long ago saying we were just getting on with our lives just. Having fun, having going on our bikes, going to the pub, going on holiday, living this lovely life, not knowing that was happening to our daughter.
It's huge. That isn't it. So I think there's that bit to it that you've, but also I think quite often in. Foster care. What I've found is that I've gone and may pull together my chronology, got all my information together, gone and met with the foster carers, go through it before the session with the child, and found there's huge, big gaps in what they've understood, and yeah, you are absolutely right if they can't put their own masks on first and either be furious about it or sad about it, or.
You, they need space for that, don't they? Before you can expect them to be available to co-regulate their child in a session.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: Yeah. So that bit's really important. I think that collaboration with the [00:26:00] parent and or carer at the beginning to get it right for the child, but also making sure. The information you hold is shared and vice versa.
You're taking information from the parent or the carer to integrate into your work as well as making sure they know what you know, and that there's no surprises. And,
Philippa: I guess again, another thing that often all come up is we don't know. We don't have any information so how do you do life story work when there's big gaps or you, you don't know things.
Katie: Yeah, so I think it depends a bit on what the gap is. I think sometimes I think that part of the work is a bit like the work you'd do if you were doing work around bereavement or loss. 'cause it is a loss. I think what I'm much more confident about now. Because I've got more experience is sitting with that.
Sitting with the pain of not knowing. Sp giving it space, giving it time, [00:27:00] bringing a focus to it in the work rather than, I think my earlier practice, I might have been a bit inclined to. Just not pay it much mind and just think, oh, but we do know this. Look, duh, look at this shiny bit of information I've got.
Whereas now I'm a bit more I'm a lot more, no, actually this is important. And it's important that you have space to have a feeling about the not knowing and about what that means for you. And there's lots of creative ways of, doing that, of honoring it. A simple one is that I often do is you can just google like a blank jigsaw if you put it into.
Google images and then you can populate that jigsaw either with writing or with drawings of the things that are known, but you can honor the bits that are not known with that piece. Just having in a visual way like that can be really helpful. The other, way of managing that, some, and again, it depends on what the information is, to do a little [00:28:00] bit of curious thinking and imagining in, and just thinking I wonder what movie was.
What, so an example we, I was talking about on training recently, we were thinking about where. Parents have been involved in domestically abusive relationships, and they haven't been able to leave, or they've left and they've gone back, and the child says why? Why did they go back? Why didn't they leave?
If they knew that I would have to leave, if they didn't leave that man, why didn't they leave?
Philippa: Yeah,
Katie: and sometimes. Parents have been able to give an account of what got in the way of why they couldn't. But other times what you might do is a bit more let's have a thing. Let's try and put ourself in those shoes.
And let's think about, maybe not even just for your mom or for your dad, but in general, if somebody was very scared. Yeah. What do we imagine they might, so you're not saying this is definitively what happened, but you're just doing a bit of just that curious thinking. Yeah. I wonder if kind of stuff. Yeah.
What do you [00:29:00] think? Yeah, again, it's just the creating space, isn't it? Yeah. For having a conversation.
Philippa: And I wonder if you can also do some of things. So you might not know what was happening with a child, but you might know that there was other bits going on around the family. Yeah. You might, have information, you know that the police, there was an arrest.
And, although the child isn't involved, but you know that this was there or that yeah. Grandparent was, whatever it was, and then you can, I guess you can do that same thing as well. It doesn't say much. We don't know a lot written about you, but we know these things. This is what, wonder.
Wonder what's going on. Yeah
Katie: Yeah,
Philippa: For you and, bringing it back to them. I wonder what that was would've been like for you.
Katie: Yeah. And I do a lot of that very general thinking about what do all babies need? Yes.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: Rather than, necessarily you. We do that a lot in our team 'cause we're, very interested in.
Children's of very early histories [00:30:00] and their touch and their movement and relational experiences. And so when we might say, did they have tummy time? Did they crawl? Did the commander crawl? And people go, I've got absolutely no idea. That there was drug use or alcohol use or domestic abuse, or the house with very small or cluttered and there are lots of dogs and you can start to build that picture of,
Philippa: yeah.
Katie: We don't know, but we can guess that it was probably a quite a scary house to live in. And it's the same kind of idea, isn't it? That you just do that imagining in a little bit hypothesis hypothesizing about what. What might have been happening.
Philippa: Yeah. But I wonder if I suppose with your work, with the preparation and if you do that preparation with what do all babies need?
What do all little people need? What do all are, they all need these. I'm wondering what we might think if this is going on, was that so actually I wonder if that helps the child then create a. [00:31:00] An open narrative, not this is what was happening to me, but maybe this is what was going on for me.
So we as adults aren't prescribing that. Are we, are almost holding that curious space. Giving them the information they need.
Katie: Yeah.
Philippa: To be able and, validating that. 'cause I think validation is quite important, isn't it? Because they hold it in their own head.
Katie: Yeah.
Philippa: And don't say it out. And then they, don't know.
But once you can start to, to say, out as adults, we can be curious or we can say, actually no, that, that really didn't happen at that time. Might have happened later, but it definitely didn't happen then. And it gives them, things to hang their coats on. Really? Yes.
Katie: And the validation about
Philippa: that.
Katie: Permission. Permission to talk about it. Yeah. As well. That nobody's gonna collapse or become overwhelmed by it if they talk about having another [00:32:00] family, yeah. All of those things are so important, aren't they? There's a lot to think about, isn't there?
Philippa: Yeah.
And do you create, 'cause for some live story work, they create books or stories, would you, is that, do you think that's you know what, would your view be on that?
Katie: My preference is for this to be an end product.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: Always. And an end product that integrates the work that I've done.
Really seamlessly so that the process of the work is joined up with a product, the book or whatever it is that you create the reality currently, I think in adoption at least, where, children are doing therapeutic life story work commissioned through the A-S-G-S-F. Is that because of the changes to the fair access limit and the time it takes to do a good story?
There are lots of corners being cut in life. Story work. I was training some therapists, big group of therapists [00:33:00] a couple of months ago and they were saying basically all that information gathering stuff that you should do at the beginning. They haven't got time to do that. So they rely on the information that the adoption social worker gives them.
Yeah. So no interviews? No. Which makes me sad. And then they don't write a book at the end. 'cause they, when they were commissioning the training, they were like, oh, don't do the bit about writing the story. We haven't got, we haven't got the funding to do it. So I think there's been a real shift in this last year.
Yeah. Because people are rightly prioritizing the direct work with the child, but that then means you're end product. You might not have a end product. And I think that it's imp, I like the idea of having something at the end because I think actually it's a resource for the child, but it's also a really useful resource for the parent or the carer.
So just a reminder of how to talk about difficult stuff.
Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. '
Katie: cause I think it's the thing that comes up the most in training. Without a shadow of a doubt, at the beginning of [00:34:00] every training session, I always say, what do you wanna go away with? And everyone talks about how hard it is to think about and talk about difficult things without retraumatizing the child.
So we do loads of practicing of it. So I think that's, and that I think is often a real worry for parents and carers. It's one of the reasons they come and ask for help with, like with talking to the kids about their story, because they're just like how do. How do you find the words to talk about some of these things?
Yeah, They're so awful. They're so unthinkable. So that story then I hope will provide a useful ongoing tool. For parents to use. So quite often I'll hear parents say, we'll go and they'll ask a question and I'll say, let's go and get your story. Let's look at that little bit again and let's just remind our and so they've got it written.
They've got a language to use for themselves, whether they're physically doing it with a book or not. It's almost irrelevant really, but it's that reworking, the, replaying the chances to reimagine. Reinterpret [00:35:00] make sense of if that can take a long time, can't it?
Philippa: Yeah,
Katie: absolutely. And the re the, if you've got something at the end to sum up the process, I think that can be really helpful in the longer term.
Philippa: Absolutely. And I think the changes in the a s. GSF have really impacted that, haven't they? Because also you could almo, you could before almost do it over the two years, couldn't you?
Katie: Yeah.
Philippa: I think that would've been when I've done it, is do the information, gathering the parent work at the end of one part.
Yeah. And then the next bit do the, but because funding is so reduced. The gaps are too big to be able to do one and then the other, because the change that's occurred in between means that maybe the work that you were doing. Isn't isn't the priority anymore because it's impacted in another way and that has been a real, sadness I think, to this
Katie: kind of work.
It's incredibly sad [00:36:00] and I think I have a real, I don't wanna be teaching people or thinking with people how to do it in a short court way. But, we in lots of cases we don't have any option but to try to, like we are in every therapy actually. It's not unique to life story work, is it?
Every therapy play, DDP bus, we're all, we've all had to think about doing things in a different way to try to fit within that fair access limit. But it is what it isn't it? So I, I. I think the most important thing is the work is that you're not, I would prefer it that way. I'd prefer the work with a child and no book than a book.
And no work with a child.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: Every time.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: And having said that I've done a few bits of work a few years ago now where for one reason or another we started the work with the child and then they. It wasn't the right thing to carry that on with them. Different reasons. And in tho both those cases, I worked with their parents [00:37:00] and to come up with a product, a resource that they could use then to, yeah, because the children were talking to their parents about it and asking questions, but then not wanting to access.
The direct work, not being able
Philippa: to, and I think, yeah, I think sometimes as well, you start and you think you're gonna have this big thing and they just want a couple of I've worked with children and we think we're gonna do live story work, and we've got these questions. I've done all the prep.
And then we answer the first few and they're like, no, I don't want, oh, that's it. That's all I wanted to know. They're like. No. No, that's it. I'm fine now. I'm, okay. I just want, wanted to know that. And some of that is, is about wanting to know that they can talk about it and almost that mission is out there.
They've had those definitely. And you're like, yeah, it's not my priority now. I'm more worried about whatever and let's just move on. And, I guess that this part of that is. Is being where the child isn't it? And knowing that sometimes they might just have two questions and they need the answering and Yeah.
[00:38:00] And that's enough for them to
Katie: know. Yeah, that's enough for now.
Philippa: Yeah,
Katie: yeah,
Philippa: yeah.
Katie: I've, worked with a few children actually where we've, done lots and lots of work, maybe not covered everything that would've liked us to cover in order to really have a robust story. But they've had enough and they've said that's enough for now.
And then you've got that di that dilemma about what do I do with this? A bit of information that's really important. It's actually really pretty critical. That can be a bit tricky sometimes, can't it? But you equally have to just honor where they are and if, where they are, and if they're saying, that's enough for now.
Thanks very much. My, oh, but I wanna do it properly, thing doesn't really matter, does it? Because that's all, that's enough for now. And in those cases I've, written their story and I've put a little bit in to say something like, there's a bit more to this story that you might want to know one day and when you do.
Yeah, there's a special letter waiting for you with your carer, and I'll write that little bit separately so the carer's got it. They [00:39:00] can integrate it into the story when they want to. Again, they've got a bit of a language to talk about it, but that child doesn't have to be forced into thinking and talking about something not ready to talk about.
Philippa: No. And some, I guess for some children they just will never. They just, for whatever reason, they might be too traumatic for them. And that's they, manage by thinking, I'm never gonna go back there. And for others it's this is my family that's not gonna that isn't gonna make any difference to me, so I don't wanna know.
And so I suppose every child, young person, family is gonna be different. Yeah. In what And how they need,
GMT20260116-142042_Recording_640x360: of
Katie: course. Yeah,
Philippa: I guess the teenage years, that early teenage bit where you are finding your identity. And it can be just as simple as it, why am I so tall? Why have I got blue eyes? Why that is a 'cause that all teenagers go through that don't they, that understanding?
Katie: Yeah,
Philippa: Where they come from, [00:40:00]
Katie: yeah.
Philippa: For some that, that is critical, I guess for every, teenager. Be mindful of that. Then
Katie: there's some, there's a nice bit of research. It's quite old now and I've not found anything that's more contemporary that interviewed some adolescent adoptees and asked what their priority questions are, and they were things like, who do I take after in terms of appearance and personality?
Where there was a big question around siblings. So if they'd been separated, where are they now? Are they okay. What's happening with them. But the main bits were about biology. The genetics, yeah. Of who do I look like and who do I take after? They were the
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: The key things. And I always, tell people that.
'cause I think if you're writing the story or doing a bit of work, especially with adolescents, make sure you've got something Yeah. Of that, if you can, to share.
Philippa: Because both children are the same, aren't they? You
Katie: course. They're I
Philippa: dad or as,
Katie: yes,
Philippa: short as my mom or you, you're [00:41:00] comparing.
That's
Katie: how you find, out
Philippa: who you've
Katie: stumpy fingers from. My dad, my, my brother's got my mom's lovely long fingers. I've got long Palms, stuy fingers. Wrong way round. I should have those
Philippa: hands. Definitely. Yeah. It's not yeah, some of the genetics are not fair, are they? Definitely. So that's it.
So just in the last bit, so you also w work in BUSS building on develop sensory systems. And I know we've, Julie's interviewed Sarah. Yeah, not that long ago podcast. Yeah. Yeah. How does the sensory system and the live story work are, do they overlap at all or are they just completely two different entities?
Katie: I don't think they, I don't think they are, and honestly anyone that knows me knows that I don't need much invitation to be bringing life story work into anything, frankly. But if you are, there's two, two aspects, two ways I think they're connected. One, if you're thinking about stage one of life story work, [00:42:00] being about helping children be re regulated enough to access it, then our thinking in this team, any would be anyway, would be build bodily regulation first, and from that platform of good bodily regulation.
Emotional regulation will grow, then you can reach that higher level thinking stuff that you need for life story work. So I think there's a connection there. There's also a connection, especially when you are working with slightly older children, I often am interested in how much of the life story they know.
Because if we are trying to make sense of why in our intervention, we're going back to fill in the earliest gaps in their touch and movement and relational experiences. In order to explain why we're doing what we're doing, it's helpful to know what do you know about when you were teeny tiny? And so I am always interested in, has anyone, have you done any live story work?
Is this something that's thought about or talked about or not? And some parents. Worked with one much older adolescent who knew about their FASD [00:43:00] diagnosis and some knew why they struggled 'cause the birth mom had drunk. And so when we were doing that intervention, we were able to think quite, openly actually.
He was really interested in understanding, okay, so when I was in the, even when I was in the womb, I didn't move as much as another baby would've done because of the alcohol. And that's affected this, and that. Oh, right now for him that joining up of the docs of this is difficult 'cause of X, Y, and Z was so helpful.
Yeah. It really normalized some of the challenges that he was having and gave him a lot of hope actually, that we could do something about it and help. So there's that. And then we, I've worked with other families where parents have said, whatever you do, not talk about. This being connected with early adversity because they will not manage that.
Can we just focus on the here and now? He wants to join a football team. Can we just talk about how doing X, Y, and Z. We'll help his balance and his coordination and all. Can we just do that? And that's also fine. [00:44:00] So I think it, it's relevant from that, in that respect in terms of how we sell it to young people.
Yeah. Especially with the little ones, it's much easier 'cause they're just playing games and doing activities with the parents and sometimes it gets joined up with wanting to ride a bike or wanting to get a pen license for goodness sake or something like that. I know, But often it isn't.
You're just playing games and they don't know we exist even. But for the older kids, it's really important that we're able to have helpful conversations about why we're asking you. To play these games on his tummy or play these touch games or do stuff with straws. Why, are we doing that?
It's important they know and that the challenges are normalized and we offer hope that things can be different and that they can make that difference for themselves with their normal, the dad or their foster carer. So I think they are integrated and,
Philippa: and I guess it could be a platform also for moving on to live story work, can't it, in that maybe when you [00:45:00] were little.
You couldn't lie on your tummy as much for lots of different reasons and we're gonna build this. And then I guess that live story work can then think about why couldn't I lie on my tummy? What's that? Yeah. Yeah. And again, it's a gentle way of starting to explore it rather than all of a sudden write, we're gonna read your CPR and we're gonna think about what happened.
It's just oh, okay. So you didn't learn your tummy as often. I wonder what was going on in your house at that time?
Katie: I think I have, I spend a lot of my working week having conversations with social workers and families about whether our intervention is the right thing for their family at that time.
And I'm lucky that I, used to manage a team of psychological therapists. So in terms of kind of thinking holistically about what would be the right fit? Is it both? Is it there play? Is it, I I feel like I can do that pretty well. And quite often people will be contemplating life story work.
And the conversations I'm having is that sounds like a really [00:46:00] good step over there. But first, think about stage one. Think about helping them be regulated and all to be, and I'll say that sometimes. Do you think they've managed to be in a room and just to be thinking and talking about. And nine times out of 10 they say, no.
No. Yeah. No, they wouldn't. And, that's why we can then think let's start at the bottom, get the foundations right. And then hopefully we've built bodily regulation. We've built emotional regulation, we've built on the that attachment relationship. And you can go into that, those more insight orientated therapies.
Much more confidently.
Philippa: Yeah.
Katie: In that child. And fa the family's ability to engage in it really, and for it to be helpful, not harmful. Yeah.
Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. So you know, it is definitely then very overlapping with one another and supportive of one another. Just as we're wrapping up, you've written four books, so two of them about life story work.
Katie: Yes.
Philippa: What are the other two about?
Katie: You're lucky if you [00:47:00] write a book and it does all right. They always come and say, have you got any other ideas? So the, I wrote the life story one first, then I wrote one that was about protective behaviors. So we, I was working in a team where we've, we were often getting asked for ideas.
For direct work with children who'd exp experienced sexual abuse. And there was lots of, there were lots of resources about how to support children with protected behaviors if they'd not already experienced harm, like the panus type stuff, all that. And it's it's all out there and there's loads of resources in school, but I couldn't find anything that was helpful for children if they had already.
Experienced harm or a, significant risk. So I wrote something that was all about that really body boundaries and thinking about assertiveness and thinking about what's private and what's not, all that kind of stuff. So all very direct worky, gentle, playful kind of activities. And then after that, I'd got a little bit of a, be got a beam up on [00:48:00] it from again, from my time working in social care about how as social workers we do assessments of need and how, focused. We are on talking to people and we're talking to people about very traumatic things often when they've only just happened and we're expecting them to be able to give good, coherent accounts of what happened last night or what, and why should they be able to do that when they're in a really heightened state.
So I wrote a book that for that was aimed at social workers and therapists around creative assessment that gives you ideas. Creative ways of playful ways for working with children, adolescents and adults, parents and carers, to look at everything from family scripts, family history, strengths and protective factors.
How do you think about risks and worries? So every book is the same except for the last one, the last life. Three one's a bit different, but the first three are all dead simple. [00:49:00] And they're based on the, they're based on the idea that as social workers and therapists, we don't have a great deal of time for thinking and planning what we're gonna do.
So it just says, this is what you need, this is what you do. These are your resources. This is how you troubleshoot it. boom boom. Like that idea. It's six ideas. If you are thinking, exploring risks and worries, how might you do that creatively? Here are six ideas of how you do it. So they're dead. It's designed to be simple so you can just dip in and dip out, really.
Yeah.
Philippa: And where will people find these books? Katie? Because
Katie: I All on Amazon. Yeah, all on Amazon. And they're all published by Jessica Kingsley Publishers. You can get them on Amazon fairly straightforwardly or from there. Website could probably send you a website offer code if you want to add to your little
Philippa: Yeah, that'd be good.
'cause what I'll do is at the bottom of of the description of this episode, I'll put a link. So yeah, thank you've if you've got a an offer code then would send you a would be great for yes, I can do that for everything. [00:50:00] So that's really good. And BUSS, we'll put a link to the, there's a website, isn't the website?
Fabulous. So people can find you in all the great work that you're doing.
Katie: Oh, lovely.
Philippa: Thank you. So thank you so much, Katie. You welcome. That is so interesting. And I'm sure yeah, it'll be a great resource for, lots of people. So thank you for your time. Oh,
Katie: you're really welcome. Thank you for inviting me.
Always a pleasure.
