EP60 Understanding Resistance - A Deep Dive into Child and Therapist Dynamics

Philippa and Julie introduce the first episode in a two-part series on resistance, focusing here on children and young people in therapy (with a follow-up episode planned on resistance from parents, carers, and other professionals). Drawing on their different approaches—TheraPlay (more adult-led) and child-centred play therapy (more child-led)—they explore what resistance can look like: refusing or tweaking an activity, avoiding certain play areas, repeated toilet breaks, zoning out, overly compliant behaviour, or constant chatter. They discuss how resistance can trigger therapist feelings of hurt, rejection, or self-doubt, especially early in training, and how experience and supervision help reframe it. A key theme is distinguishing resistance (a workable growth edge) from distress/terror (a signal to stop and back off), and responding based on what the behaviour means for that specific child (including children who take control to stay safe versus those finding their voice). They share examples from practice—including a young person who began therapy hiding under a table—and connect resistance to children’s histories of disrupted relationships, uncertainty, and fear of loss. The episode closes with the message that resistance is not failure but valuable information, inviting curiosity about what the child is communicating and how adults can scaffold safety, connection, and change.

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Transcript

Understanding Resistance: A Deep Dive into Child and Therapist Dynamics

[00:00:00] 

Philippa: Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me, Philippa, 

Julie: and me Julie. And today is the first part of a two-parter and the theme is resistance. This episode we are thinking about. Our experience and children's experience of resistance, particularly in a therapy situation, but also in life.

And then we've decided there's enough material then to think in another episode about experience of resistance from parents, carers, other professionals when we are working therapeutically with the family. So this week is children and young people. Another week will be. Parents, carers, and other professionals.

And something that you've probably picked up, if you've listened to a few episodes is Philippa and I come from different training backgrounds. [00:01:00] We have different forms of, therapy with our clients. On the whole, I do child centered. Play therapy, which is very much child led and adult follows. It's that model.

Not not all the time, but that's usually the arena I'm working in. And Philippa you are more usually working in a more adult led type therapy called Thera Play. And we both supervise, trainees and students, and also professionals in our, particular models. So in thinking about resistance, we're gonna hold in mind those two foundational practices, thera play.

And child-centered play therapy. 

Philippa: And I guess also Julie, you've got a teaching background and I've got a social work background, so we will have had experience there. That's quite different as well, isn't it? [00:02:00] That's our kind of foundation is those, early backgrounds of teaching and social work, then moving into therapy and there's resistance in, all those areas.

Julie: There is now, Philippa you, brought up this topic. This is one we started talking about. Or a couple of weeks ago, and then we said, oh, that's gonna be, that's gonna be an interesting topic. Can you define, not define, 'cause we don't do that here, but give me a, an outline of what resistance as being.

How, would you know to call something resistance? 

Philippa: So I think that's a really hard question, Julie, so I'm really thankful that you gave that to me. I suppose what, when when I'm talking to colleagues or supervisees or even social workers or thinking about my social background, we think about resistance as that thing that [00:03:00] when, so we are talking about children, so let's stick with children when children.

Don't completely follow our instruction, our guidance our request of them in a way that, so an example would be like, I'll just give you a really simple example. Is that in interplay, we balance beanbags on our head and we'll say 1, 2, 3. And they drop the beanbags in into, your hand, and then you put it on your, head and, you drop it into the child and parent's hands.

And the idea is that's just a connecting, structured, really nice way to do it. Now, nine times outta 10 there is a little bit of what we would call resistance so they don't drop when you say. Three or go, they just hold the head and they just sit there or they flick their head backwards.

So it goes backwards or they flick it to the [00:04:00] side. So they do what you are asking them to do, but there's this little bit of but I'm gonna do it my way. Yeah. And no, some of it could be yeah, some of it could be child child development, all kids. Give us resistance. You might say, put your shoes on to your 3-year-old.

They're saying, no, I don't want team. I won't play this. That, would be resistance, wouldn't it? You might ask your child to hold your hand when you are walking along the road, and again, that would be resistance in some way. So it's, that kind of adult led stuff that children then weave. Into their own their own way really.

Does that make sense? And I guess, there's a point in therapy where you are looking at that. I'm wondering what that's about. 

Julie: So can I pause you there [00:05:00] before? 'cause I'm thinking my, definition I think is, different to yours. I'm really curious that I think this comes out. Because of our different practices, I've, I also do thera play, but no, not so much now.

And I absolutely get what you mean when you, as the adult or the parent has set up something and the child resists either engaging at all sits on the sofa and says, no, not doing that or does it, but tweaks it and it, doesn't quite flow. 

Philippa: They might have their own ideas. They might 

Julie: have their own idea.

Philippa: Yeah, let's do it this way. 

Julie: So I suppose when I'm thinking about in a child-centered play therapy arena where I'm not. Putting forward any expectation for the child other than we keep ourselves and the toys safe and we end at a certain time. That's generally [00:06:00] my, that's the only instruction. If, anything, I'm giving the child, but I'm noticing the child has an internal resistance to playing with a certain area of the room.

So I had a child come in the other day, an older child, a young teen, and I could see this young person looking at the baby nurture soft area, but I. Immediately say, oh, of course I won't want to play with that 'cause I'm too old and you wouldn't expect that of me, would you? And I said everything's here for you.

You can but I have a feeling that young person really wants to play in that area. For now is resistance. So that resistance is coming from the child. The child is putting the brakes on themselves, they're putting their own brakes on for their own [00:07:00] desire. They want to do something or they're drawn to something, but they're resisting it.

So 

Philippa: I 

Julie: think there's also that type of resistance a nervousness or, an absolute panic fear. Touching something or coming across something that will them. 

Philippa: Yeah. And.

Sometimes my little people or big people, I'll go to the toilet four or five times in an hour's session, and that is resistance. Do, you know what I mean? That they need to break from and from, that intensity, from whatever's going on. And, that there's that resistance to being in that relationship that they actually, they need a moment on their own and going to the toilet is a really good way that they can just okay I just.

Need not to be in this relationship with these people for a minute. And 

Julie: yeah, 

Philippa: and I'm gonna [00:08:00] do, that. Do, you know what I mean? So it's that. I think, yeah, it's those, I don't know, blocks, breaks moving around that goes on that maybe. As adults, we are thinking actually, what's that about?

What, Because it can be quite undermining, can't it? If you think actually you've got an hour session and four times, this kid has to leave the room and go the toilet for five minutes. Do you know what I mean? What is going on? Why doesn't you they don't wanna stay in with me. Is there something wrong with me?

Am I doing something wrong? It can be quite tricky, I think. Feelings that come up when you and I think that is part that resistance brings some of that. It's more than. I think in therapy, in, in a therapeutic setting, it's more than what you would [00:09:00] expect of a typically developing child.

There is that resistance that comes with child development that you expect of them finding their own ways and understanding how they influence the world. All that is part of growing, developing, understanding, and I guess as professionals. And as parents, you understand that and, there's a room in your brain I think that says, okay, that's just because they're three.

They're four, the five. But then you get this other little bits when you are expectation, and I think it is about adults and what we expect children to do or not do. Or can do or should do or whatever it is that we as adults think and then they don't. Whether it's that they're resisting it themselves and you're thinking, actually you could play with that if you wanted to, but they don't.

Or you think, wow, they keep going out the room. Or Why have you just [00:10:00] smacked me in my, face instead of in my hands? And it creates a feeling in awes, doesn't it? About? And that, yeah. 

Julie: Yeah. That's for each of us. 

What sort of feeling does it create in us when say, we're both doing a each doing Thera play sessions.

Where you, write like a, little plan in advance, don't you, of your, entrance, your your couple of activities, and then your nurture sequence at the end, there's a little list which either you hold in your head or you stick up on the wall somewhere or having your basket. So you've got your little list of activities that in your, in our heads we've thought.

I'm hoping that might be helpful for this child and this parent. 'cause of course the parent is in the room as well. So we've got three people and, there may be resistance from any of them, but what does it leave you with? What does it leave [00:11:00] me with? If there is resistance, if there isn't a sense of flow, if there's a sense of.

And we'll think about parents next time if the if, what does that do to you? Philippa? When a child says Philippa, no, I'm not doing that. 

Philippa: Yeah, I think experience, I think what it does now is less because I've got much more experience of it. I do a lot of therapy play. I do a lot of playing, whether it's in sand, whether it's with teenagers and, I work a lot, so I think it's slightly different now.

But I know when I certainly started doing my therapy training and for a good number of years, 

And this kind of goes into the episode I talked about before, you think that you're not doing it, okay, what is it about me? And that's it. You turn it on yourself, don't you? And it's that thing of what is it about me?[00:12:00] 

That means that the child isn't doing these things, that they aren't doing the. Paper punch in the way punching it through the chopping it, or they're putting both fists through it or the headbutting it instead of any of the things that, that you don't want them to do, they're doing instead of the thing that they want, that you want them to do and you begin I would say, I would question my ability.

As a practitioner, and then you can start to think maybe the play is not the right thing for this child, maybe. And so then you take it from yourself and start to think, actually there's something wrong. With this, there's something wrong with, me, there's something wrong with the child.

Not in an awful way, but in a, this isn't the right therapy for them. You can go into all those questionings, can't you? Whereas now what I know is that if you get [00:13:00] 20% of a, the play session, that looks like a third of play session. You've done a great job as far as I can see. Do you know what I mean?

And, but that's experience and actually now. Resistant and we can come onto this. Resistance is something very different for me, and we'll talk about that towards the end. But yeah. What about for you, Julie? What do you 

Julie: think? Yeah I, think similar to you, when I started my Thera play training probably about 10 years ago I wanted the, session to go smoothly.

I wanted it to look like the videos I'd seen from the Thera Play Institute and from other people. And I wanted. For my clients, all of whom were early adopted, they were in their first year of adoption. And I suppose that was the goal often for the parent and the child to have what sometimes we call moments of meeting and there weren't many of those.

20% I think would've been pretty good [00:14:00] for some of those clients. But yeah, I spent a lot of the seven years that I did. Thera play every, all day, every day. Feeling that it was a gradual feeling. I think I often feel hurt and a bit offended or. That I've offered something for a child and a parent and they're not taking it, or there's part of me thinking if only if, you could just drop the beanbag into her hands, you'd see her eyes and then there'd be this moment of connection and why won't you do that?

So I can feel or could feel, I don't think I, I experienced this much now, a sense of. Partly, what am I doing wrong? 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: But also, although I'm hearing, I was hearing from my supervisor, you're not doing anything wrong over and over again, so stick with the plan, but a sense of [00:15:00] feeling hurt and pushed away and rejected.

I think I would quite often. Feel personally rejected. 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. 

Julie: And that's something I had to work on a lot in clinical supervision and personal therapy about how do I use myself as therapist? And I think I got that a lot more from my child centered play therapy because that training is very much about who I am as the therapist and knowing why.

I feel hurt and disappointed and rejected so quickly if somebody doesn't seem to take what I offer them. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: So I, I think like you, it's absolutely developed over many, years of practice. 

Philippa: I just, yeah, and I just wanted to just think about. Maybe like the social work and teaching role when you have resistance there.

I worked in [00:16:00] safeguarding initially for a while and you were working with families where it was tricky and you would be going in to spend time with children and taking them to do nice things and do you know, all these things. And they didn't want to, they wanted to stay in these. Or the places that you are thinking, actually this is maybe not okay, and that I think that hurt feeling.

I, didn't get during therapy, but I did. I think when I think back to my social work days, 'cause I thought I think very differently now, but in my in that naivety, I thought, I'm doing this really lovely thing for you. Do you know what I mean? I'm giving you this really nice moment, this really nice experience.

This really, and you, don't want it. You don't like that. That was like, I think then I was like, yeah. That, was like, I've thought about this, I've thought about you. I've thought about what we're gonna do and how it's [00:17:00] gonna be nice for you. Yeah. And now you are saying, no, I don't wanna go. I want to stay here, or I wanna and that I think.

I think then though, then I felt personally rejected or hurt or like when I was, I talked, I worked in a project that bridged the gap between education and being outta school really. So we, we did lots of inventive ways of trying to, help kids educate. So I'd get up really early in the morning and I'd plan and I'd go and fetch them to take them for breakfast, and then they'd be like, no, not coming.

And and I'd be like, like that would really, because I'd got Apex really? I didn't have to be there at Harper past seven. I didn't have to do an I'd think I've done all this amazing thing for you and now you're saying no, not coming. 

Julie: So that's really, because several times in that Philippa, you've used that phrase, I'm doing a [00:18:00] nice thing for you.

Philippa: Yeah, absolutely. 

Julie: And. We know that's not what therapy is about. No. We are not doing a nice thing with families. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Therapy is not a nice thing and I think, I dunno if you experienced this, when I explain I don't explain, if I say to somebody, I'm a play therapist, immediately the reaction is, oh, that's nice.

Yeah. Oh, that's lovely. Oh, that's great fun. Wish I could do that. You just play all day and I roll my eyes and think, oh, there's something, there's a problem about the word play and therapy sitting together. Together. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: Thera play is the other way round because that's not what we're after.

We are not after our sessions. Being nice. 

Philippa: No. 

Julie: And being pleasant and. Not, we thought, especially in, in, in CCPT we talk about the therapeutic relationship and it's different in therap the, [00:19:00] because you've got that triangle of the parent and you are really looking at the relationship between the parent and the child.

But I think a lot about the therapeutic relationship, the alliance. The trust between me and the child. But that doesn't mean that it has to feel nice all the time. No, it can be gritty, it can be angry. It can survive every emotion. And that's when I know the therapeutic alliance is very robust, is when the child can bring me everything, including their re.

Philippa: Yeah. And I think though that our jobs, when I think back now, our, those those young people that were in the, in this project that I was supporting, their resistance was their communication. It was like, ah, this is scary for me. Yeah, I might want to go and have McDonald's breakfast with you, that's great, but you are gonna ask me to do maths.

You are gonna ask me, and I don't feel [00:20:00] that I am able to do that. You might know that I'm able to do that because they were. They were, more than capable, but that's not their belief and I wasn't alongside them. And I think that's the difference is when I was in that early stage of my career in my late twenties, hopefully I had empathy and compassion, but I don't feel that I was alongside, I think I was trying to lead.

Julie: Yeah. 

Philippa: And when you are trying to lead, the resistance is just massive. Whereas and, in those early stages of the play, again, I was trying to lead. Whereas now if resistance comes up, whether it's with a teenager in my story work or a 6-year-old and thorough play, I just sit with it really and think, okay.

This is tricky for you. What am I not seeing? What do I need to [00:21:00] notice? What do, and actually what I would say to my. To anybody really is resistance lets me know I like you, I am doing the right thing. 

Julie: That's the work. Yeah. 

Philippa: Yeah. What you don't want is distress. And I think there's a difference between resistance and distress, and sometimes there's a fine line between that.

Resistance is no, this is not this feels difficult for me. This is tricky for me. Distress is. This is overwhelming for me, and this is is you don't want distress. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Philippa: You do want resistance. 

Julie: Yeah. And I think that's something I learned very much in my thera play training and, with my supervisor about the difference between a sort of triggering a terror, in which case you absolutely immediately stop whatever you are doing.

Resistance is, that growth edge is that [00:22:00] area of being able to grow a space and help the child? And if it's not terrifying, but it is, either feels a bit unsafe or weird or just really unusual because they've never done these things before then. I make the choice to carry on. And one of the ways my supervisor taught me to do that, and I'm incredibly grateful to her for that, is she, I'm a, singer.

I sing a lot in my Thera play sessions. Is to get to the end of the song, even if the child is going no, stop. I don't like that. But there's something about knowing when it's gonna end and that can literally, I think, grow the growth edge. So if you think about any nursery line rhyme, like Twinkle, twinkle, it's got four lines to it.

[00:23:00] I always get to the end of the phrase and then I've seen it happen over and over again where the child actually, 'cause they know I'm gonna finish my singing sentence, actually they can tolerate it a lot more. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: And I've used that so many times. But yet, if it's terror resistance, if it's absolutely fearful, then we, back off and give the child a bit of space.

Philippa: We just. 

Julie: But if it's that gritty, I just tussling. They're still in engagement with us, but they're saying no is can we help them? To go into a, tricky space and survive it and keep a connection going. 

Philippa: Yeah. And I think also there are different bits of resistance and it's knowing your child and young person isn't Yeah.

Yeah. So the example, and I think you and I have talked about this in, supervision is obvious sometimes in the play we [00:24:00] do like pillow, pillow stack. So we stack pillows, we send little people, all big people on, and they, jump off. And so resistance might look like I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick one cushion up, and then they say, no, we want this one.

Now I have, oh, 

Julie: this is ringing bells. Sorry. 

Philippa: Yeah, I have two different responses for that. So one of them is the child that needs to be in that adult role, that needs that level of control and actually really, struggles to be a child for them. I wouldn't take that cushion. I would say That's a great caution.

We'll do it next time. We'll do that. The next one, and I would continue with my caution, and then the next time I would do their cushion and say, this was a great cushion that you picked. Let's do this. But I would remain in the adult role. However, there's the overly compliant child, the child who doesn't have a voice that when they [00:25:00] say.

I want this cushion, I would then say, oh my gosh, that is the best cushion. Yes, let's have this. And I would celebrate their voice. So it's knowing that what resistance is, because it has a really great purpose, and for the child who goes into the adult world, it's kept them safe. It's kept them safe because they've used their head, they've used their knowledge, and they've kept them safe.

For the child who's been overly compliant, they've had to squash their voice, haven't they? So when they say, but can I want this cushion? We really want to hear their voice, don't we? And say Yes. So we respond to resistance differently depending on the situation that we're in. 

Julie: Absolutely. And that this comes up so much in child-centered play therapy as well, knowing.

The meaning behind a behavior. So it's not just the child is [00:26:00] saying, no, the child was, doesn't want to come into the room. The child is whatever. It's what meaning does this hold for this child and what meaning does it hold between me and this child and how can I help them do the thing that they are wanting to change?

But you are absolutely right. That sense of many of the children, young people we meet. Their strategies have kept them safe, has kept them together. They've they've done a fabulous job, and then they might be in a new family or in a new situation where those strategies are maybe not needed so much.

But that's absolutely unknown to the child because it's like they've learned one language and we're inviting them to consider another language. But we'll do it with them. And I'm suddenly remembering a young person I worked with [00:27:00] many, years ago to this, I think in year five or year six. So 10 11 in a school setting.

And I, saw her for a year in that school. I saw every child for about a year, and for the first term, the first 12 sessions or so, she sat under the table. In the room. I remember I started in the summer with you, so I remember it being really hot. But she came in with a big puffer jacket on, a big coat on with her hood up and would sit under the table and would pull a cloth over her.

And that's how she started her sessions. She would crawl on, she wanted to come to the sessions. I never heard. I'd pick her up and she'd say goodbye to her teacher. She'd come along, but the, she brought her coat hood up under the table and. In my [00:28:00] practice and I think now I would maybe do it a bit differently, but I would be reflecting what I was seeing and what she might be feeling.

I'd say, gosh, I notice you are under the table and it's a very hot day and you've got your coat on. I'm wondering how hot that must be for you, and you've got your hood up and, I'm just, I might have got this wrong, but I'm just wondering if you are a bit scared or if you're a bit. Unsure about me and I can understand that this is new.

So I was trying some reflecting and all that things, and she just kept shouting back, get out of my head. Get out of my head. 

My thoughts and my thoughts. You, how did you get in my head, she was terrified that somebody could do that. Mind mindedness. Yeah. I don't think she had the experience of a parent.

Being able to have a guess at what she's feeling and feed it back to her, [00:29:00] which in many other children that might have happened when they were babies and toddlers, and this was a refugee family. I can imagine that when she was very little, the family were in a state that they weren't able to offer her that.

So me doing that for her when how she was 10, was terrifying. And so I didn't move towards her. I kept at the other side of the room, but one day, one day I did just pass her a pen and some post-it notes, and I just left them there under the table. And then her resistance began to slowly reduce and she would write notes.

Like angry, fearful, scared, very articulate child. And then I would write notes back to her and gradually things emerged and, she blossomed in her therapy and it [00:30:00] included her. She wanted her dad involved and dad, bless him, came to the school every week and got involved in the sessions and ended up telling her stories of when she was a baby.

And he did the work of filling in these gaps. But her resistance was so huge at the beginning, and I, my heart goes out to that young person and she's been in touch. She's one of those children who found me about 15 years later and came back and said, that was really, helpful. And I, but we started from that massive resistance.

That if the school hadn't had the wonderful therapeutic head that they had, could have said we've done a term and she's not done anything. Nothing's changed. She obviously, it's not the right time for her or, but actually going at her pace and. This [00:31:00] little line of connection. And she led it I prompted with the sticky notes maybe, but she took up that pen and it's that how do we go with each child's experience?

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: And I think I can get it wrong along the way. 

Philippa: Yeah. I think that's a really important thing. 

A recent interview, which I've done with Kim Golden, we talked about therapy and certainly working with children who've had adverse childhood experiences and trauma. And that actually it's a long process.

It's, not. Just, we can do six sessions or six months. It's, an attachment relationship and and she used the term that you use in that professional love kind of thing that you, are creating this support for the child, for the parents. And we'll talk about parents like you say next [00:32:00] time, but.

The resistance you can understand, can't you? So like lots of our children have had lots and lots of breaks in relationships. People who. Gonna be there forever and they're not, or therapies that have come and gone. Some children have had nine social workers, five placement moves.

They've been to lots of different family members. There's been lot or they might have been in and out of hospital. It might not be about kind of care, but they've had health needs where they've had to come in and out of hospital. Nurses and doctors are great, but there's lots of different people caring for you.

You, you are not in your own bed. So you've got all the, this blueprint that says nothing's ever fixed in, a relationship. And what I mean by fixed, is it in permanent rather than fixed like mended. Like it's not, it's, there's no permanency in these relationships. So [00:33:00] how do you begin to. Trust people with these really big feelings that are inside, or big thoughts, whichever, wherever you are within that, because you might start and then they disappear.

So what is the point? And so, I would be resistant to that That is a completely understandable way of being. Or you might start to something so like in the play, you might like that you get creamed cream on your hands or that. Somebody kind of feed you your hula hoops or whatever, but your experience there in two weeks time they're not gonna do this.

So I don't want it. I don't wanna like it because it's not gonna stick around. It's better not to have it. And and so we would all be resistant to that, wouldn't we? You can understand that. 

Julie: And that's making me think about the. Do we right from the beginning of a [00:34:00] therapy intervention with a child, let them know how many sessions there are gonna be, or do we not, and sometimes we don't know if it's well at the moment in, in England or Wales that the funding for adopted and special guardianship families is very, uncertain at the moment.

So it, previously, I'd say to a child. You know there, there is. I wouldn't talk about endings at the beginning, but now I'm having to because I don't know when the next bit of funding is going to come. But with private pay families, I've got a couple of those. At the moment, I'm aware that the parent is paying and so we, we agree a certain number of sessions in blocks, and I let the child know that because I.

Think I want to have that congruence with them to say We've got 12 sessions mums and I met last night and we had a think [00:35:00] about what what might be going wobbly for you at the moment. But of course that's their idea. And I'm interested in what your ideas are about you and we've got 12 times to start with of doing this and then we'll all think together.

But absolutely for some children that. It gives them the agency to say, how far can I go in this relationship? How much can I protect myself from another loss? Because as therapists, we are not with children all the time. I've got one we won at the moment. I've seen a for I know, three. We're in our fourth year now.

And she'll say, you are gonna be my therapist forever. And every time I say, I know you'd really like that, but that's not true. I won't be your therapist forever. And there'll come a time where we will all decide together that we can pause [00:36:00] or we can finish, but I'll make sure I always stay. I your, your mums will always know where I am and the how to look me up.

You as a grown up will be able to get in touch with me if you want to do that. Yeah. But she, wants to know that I'm gonna be around for a very, long time. And she's beginning to work out that's, at some point that's not gonna be true. I'm not, yeah, not going to be that. But I think that allows her to decide how far she's gonna go.

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: And I think that's important that the, I suppose child has that power, that agency. 

Philippa: And I suppose I just wanted to, maybe think about when you are in, when we are in. A session, whether that's a therapy session, a social work session, whatever it is, and we get resistance. This is often a question in that you go back and you think about [00:37:00] oh my gosh, what didn't I do?

What? Why? Why was it so bad? Why was it and 'cause that's why it can feel like, can't it? I suppose it's thinking about how do we sit with that in the session? What is there are different ways aren't there? So for some I would just, like in therapy play, I would just carry on.

So the kid who wants to be the adult again, as long as they weren't in distress, as long as they were thing, I might do it with a parent. I might carry on doing it, saying that actually I am the adult, you are the child. You can join if you want. And keep inviting them to join demonstrator. So, I might do that.

Because I know that there, there's just this battle of who's gonna be the adult. There might, I might do that. Again, but know that the resistance is about anxiety. Do you know what I mean? That they, that this is a new game. This is a new thing we're gonna do. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Philippa: And the [00:38:00] resistance is about I don't know what this is, and I dunno what that's about.

So I might model it on the, so I'm doing the same thing, but for a different reason. Do you know what I mean? One is about we are having this battle and I'm gonna remain the adult. And that's the end of it. One is that. The, child, I can see that the child has got a level of what is this gonna look like?

What is this gonna do? So I might model it with the parent fit or on myself. I might say, this is what, it's gonna look like this. And I just sit. Sit with that and sit with those, feelings I might notice. Oh, it feels a bit funny when we don't know. I wonder what if you're doing lotion, I wonder what the lotion, it feels really cold.

What does it feel like for you, mum? And you just kinda work through knowing that actually there's a level of anxiety and just do the inviting. So I wouldn't I might just invite, do you want to, do you want to just touch it on my hand to see what it feels like? What does it feel like to you?

And actually in Fairplay, it's not [00:39:00] really a talking. Yeah, talking thing. But there are moments like that where the resistance, you can see it's about uncertainty. It's about, but we want them to get to, like you say, that top of that window of tolerance, feel a bit odd and know they've survived it.

They've done it, they've, yeah, they've felt the lotion, they've put their fingerprint on the card and they've absolutely achieved it. So you, so in those cases. I would just keep going and I'd do it. There are times where you might see a child has got a, big feeling and I might stop and just say, thank you for letting me know that you've got a big feeling about this and I can see that this is really hard for you.

So I would remain in that adult role and but I would do that acknowledging of. I can see this is really tricky for you, even if, I don't know why it's tricky. Maybe they've done it five times before, but today they don't. But I just do the noticing that this [00:40:00] is tricky and I might say. We won't do this today then, but I'll never say we're not gonna do it again.

What I'll say is we're not gonna do it today, but we might try it again in the future because in the future they might wanna try it again and we won't do you know what I mean? But I, there are times where I think that attunement that, the child needs to be scaffolded and held and I think so.

I think there's lots of different ways that we can. With resistance. Sometimes I just change if I've got a kid who's I'm doing the beanbag thing, whether they're chucking it across the room, I might just go with their game and say, oh, that's great. You've got really strong arms. Let's see.

And, again, take that adult role back, but go with where they are. Do, you know what I mean? Yeah. So I am working with the resistance alongside them they're, whatever they're throwing the cushions rather than jumping off them. Then I'll turn it into a game and say, okay, let's. See who can get the caution [00:41:00] onto the sofa, who can do, so you, rather than getting into a battle about I'm the adult, you are the child, I'll just go with where they are and slowly place myself back into that adult role. 

Julie: So when you are saying the adult role and the child role. Why, can you say a bit more about why that's important? That the adult, that the child sees you in the adult role in the sort of lead role why, in life is that gonna be important for the child?

Because that's quite different to a child-centered play therapy role where I'm not taking the lead and I'm not. Putting myself out there as the adult. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: So yeah. Could you just say a bit about 

Philippa: that? Yeah. So I for lots of children they that I work with and lot, I guess lots out there that they [00:42:00] haven't had safe, consistent, predictable adults.

So we should have as babies, as toddlers. All the way up until your twenties, you should, we developmentally we need adults who are bigger, stronger, wiser, kinder, yeah. Those big hands. Yeah. That guide us to guide us through life and they help us manage the big things so that, that are big for us.

So the best way that I describe this is that if you are in a swimming pool and you've got a toddler and you want them to jump in. Yeah, that's the goal is that they're gonna jump in. You don't stand on the side and push them in. Yeah. Or you don't just say, jump you. Because you are bigger, stronger, wiser, that they need to experience it slowly.

So you might. Sit them on the side and then just gently put them in the water so there's no splashes, no nothing. And then when they've done that a few times, you might then hold their hands, so you are just a [00:43:00] little bit further away. And then they, use their own momentum to jump in, but you stop them splashing and then you might let them splash and then you, they might stand up and so slowly.

You are helping them have the experience until they can stand on the side and say, mom, dad, granny, whatever, watch me. And then they jump in and then you do that cheering. But you haven't just expected they're gonna do that. We've scaffolded them all the way through and that helps. Them feel confident.

It helps them build their resilience. It helps them know that if they're, they get into trouble, that somebody's gonna be there. It helps them build their internal model of, I can do this because I've experienced all these other steps. And if we don't have that, if you just leave the child standing on the side at the deep end, they're just gonna build anxiety, aren't they?

And then they're gonna they're gonna be worried and anxious, [00:44:00] or they're gonna do it. And maybe we 

Julie: might just. Completely jump in and, survive, but be on their own. 

Philippa: Yeah. And, it's not gonna be great. So, we should have those experiences where we've got these adults and that's with everything, whether you are feeding, eating, sleeping, walking, and it helps us have this rhythm of life.

Where there's, and you've talked about it. It's that beginning, middle, and end. That's what we do as adults. We help our children know that there's a rhythm to life. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end to things. And that you are safe within that within your your, big people, your people around you.

So children who are coming to third play often for lots and lots of different reasons. Haven't had that experience. So they have and, we can, we don't have time, but there's lots of ways that they manage that. But for some children, they take the adult role, don't they? They go into their brain and they.[00:45:00] 

They think this is what I know. So then they have to, because that's what's worked for them, stay in this very narrow lane because they know that these things work. They know that I'm gonna be safe if I do this, and if I control it. It's gonna be okay. So they struggle to let anybody else because they've learned quite rightly that if other people do it, they let them down or they're unsafe or they're left alone, or their siblings are crying.

So they've had to look after their siblings so they've had to. For whatever reason go into this role where they've had to look after themselves, possibly look after parents or siblings or pets, and we want them to experience being scaffolded, being a child, having the joy, 

Julie: yeah. 

Philippa: Of just being in the moment and having somebody else.[00:46:00] 

Have that joy, that moment of meeting that delight with you, that joint attention, that joint cooperation. So that's why. But all children have so many different ways that it's feeling about the, I guess the feeling in the session is, how do I help this child? Because it's not always the same for some children.

You wouldn't, like I say, hold that, that adult role, you would let them have it and then slowly take it back. 'cause you wouldn't, you don't want to get into conflict. 

Julie: Yeah. You 

Philippa: do want them to have that experience. 

Julie: So it's, so it is the resistance of the relationship rather than resistance of the, activity or the toy or whatever.

Yeah. I'm thinking about that phrase again, it's a phrase I learned on when I was being supervisor, when I was being trained, is very often a child who's moved perhaps from birth, family, foster care into adoption. [00:47:00] They're often described as very independent, can look after their own self-care, very able to do this and that.

And, then you read, they're three and you're thinking, but a three year-old shouldn't be able to do all of those things or shouldn't have got to a stage of being able to completely dress themselves. And so when they move into adopt their adoptive families. It's, I can do it. I can do it. I can do it.

And a lot of the time we're in case. But isn't it lovely to have dad do it with you? Yeah. Isn't it lovely to have daddy put on one of your shoes and, the kind of melting that can happen and when they realize, gosh, actually, isn't it lovely? I know. I said I know you can do it. Yeah. And isn't it lovely that Daddy can do it with you too?

So it's not canceling out their old strategies, not dismissing what kept them safe in foster care or wherever they've been previously. [00:48:00] But isn't it lovely to be able to just melt into Daddy while he puts your shoe on the other? And 

Philippa: also that I'll say to them I know you can do it, but I really love doing it so that they know that you want to look after them, that you want to be able to do it.

And then as, I guess as a, the therapist should start with you and move to the parent but, but. they may be, haven't experienced that. That parents, carers, whoever delight in looking after them, delight in taking care of them. They are enjoyed and that's what we want. They're loved.

Yeah. 

Julie: Yeah. And 

Philippa: that's, and 

Julie: then just. Just before we finish, I was thinking about this the, tough resistance, which is really obvious to see the child that says no, the child, you throw something the that's really easy to see. But I think the one that certainly I miss sometimes is the kind of low window of [00:49:00] tolerance resistance, which is zoning out.

Yeah. Going to sleep. Just quietly walking away from something, or as you said, very compliantly, just carrying on with something even though it feels horrible. But I think that zoning out, I see that quite a, lot in the play cases as well as CCPT ones where the child is just really not connected with themselves anymore and they're resisting the relationship.

By shutting off. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: So not by organizing everybody else, but they're resisting the relationship by withdrawing. And again, because that's maybe kept them safe and has been a wonderful strategy at some other point in their lives. 

Philippa: Or chattering that chat. Do you know what I mean? Like that resistance? Is this delightful?

Chatter Chatter, 

Julie: chatter Yeah. Look there. Look there. [00:50:00] Don't look there. But don't look at me. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Julie: Yeah. Gosh, Philippa, there is so much in this topic. It's gonna make me really think about my clients this week in such a different way about what do I notice? Do I notice when it's happening?

Do I notice what's happening in me? Am I offended? Am I put off? And then that question all the time. What is the meaning? Having a good old guess what that child is communicating to me, and then making choices about how we engage in the relationship after that. 

Philippa: Yeah, and I think what I would like to end with is for practitioners, for parents, for therapist, for social workers, whoever is that resistance is a really positive thing.

It gives you information. So it's about, what it allows you to do is think what is going on? Why is this important for this [00:51:00] child? What is this child feeling? What is this child experiencing, and how can I, as an adult. Help them not have to do that in that way. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? How can I help them experience the relationship in a way that isn't so scary for them, or trust that we can have fun in this session today?

Or in this moment today. Whatever it is. It is. It's about. Yeah, resistance is positive, is what I think. It's absolutely a positive thing. And and in a third play session, I often think that they come in and they think they're gonna have some great fun and they, start to have fun.

And then they realize quite quickly this is a bit tricky. And then you start to build that resistance. So you get to the top and it's really quite horrific. And then it starts to come down. And then you have a little plateau where the, where everybody moves into [00:52:00] things and then you think actually, okay, we need to.

Maybe work on the next bit for them and then you start to get the next bit of resistance again. And then, that's the thing where I think actually now we can start to move and think about actually how we're gonna finish this. But I, think in the thirdly sessions, for me, there are two big periods of resistance that is really important because the first one is, this is odd, the second one is.

Is this, is it gonna stay? Do you know what I mean? I'm gonna resist now 'cause I don't believe it. And, you're just gonna stick with them all the time. Yeah. And that's so super important, I think. 

Julie: Yeah. So when we see resistance in our sessions, it's not a failure. 

Philippa: Absolutely not. No. It's a wonder.

Wonder what that's about. 

Julie: Philippa, thank you for bringing that topic to us, and next time we're going to be thinking about. Experiencing resistance when [00:53:00] within the relationship with the parents or other professionals working around a child, because that's a huge part of our work as well as child therapists.

Philippa: Okay. Thank you very much for the listening to this episode of Pond Dream Play and Therapy. And as usual, if you've got to the end, please subscribe, leave us a comment. We'd love to hear from you. Thank you very much. 

Julie: Bye-bye.