EP66 Pondering Play and Mess with Ellen Dempsey

In this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy, Julie speaks with newly qualified play therapist Ellen Dempsey about her Roehampton University dissertation, “Oh, What a Mess,” exploring messy play and therapeutic presence. Ellen shares how her own preference for tidiness created tension, shame, and distraction in the playroom when children used sensory materials, and how supervision and an embodied messy-paint exercise helped her reconnect with the felt experience behind her topic. Using qualitative interviews with three experienced BAPT play therapists and thematic analysis, Ellen examines how therapists stay present during messy play, highlighting preparation, time and space constraints, emotional grounding, experience, and limit setting, as well as refocusing on the child’s needs and meaning-making. She reflects on how the research shifted her from shame to acceptance and offers training recommendations for more embodied “messy” workshops.

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Transcript

Pondering Play and Mess with Ellen Dempsey

[00:00:00] 

Julie: welcome to this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me, Julie, and this week my special guest, Ellen Dempsey. Good morning, Ellen. 

Ellen: Hi, Julie, how are you? 

Julie: Hi, I'm good now, Ellen, you and I know each other. I'd say pretty well because for two years you were a student at Roe Hampton University.

And today we're going to be thinking about your dissertation on messy play and therapeutic presence. And you did that as part of your training. Could you just talk us through a little bit what, was your training? What did you come from Ireland to do in Rohan, which is in London? 

Ellen: Yes. So yeah, about two and a half years ago now, I made the move over to London to do my two year play therapy training at Ro Hampton.

So that was a pretty intensive but extremely rewarding two years. [00:01:00] Very difficult in parts, but also extremely enlightening in so many other ways. So yeah, two years and now I'm a qualified play therapist, thankfully after much hard work. But yeah, it was definitely a very formative two years in my life.

And yeah, this research was the final part of it and what really tied it up and tied it all together. So yeah it was a great experience overall, but yeah, definitely challenging in parts. 

Julie: Yeah, a real challenge. And you are still in the UK and you are beginning your professional practice and you've got clients and, we'll think about that in a moment.

We'll think about how the dissertation has, impacted your work. But the question I often have for people at the beginning of a conversation is, Ellen, what, where is play in your life at the moment? What do you consider play in your life? 

Ellen: It's actually an interesting question 'cause I'm currently [00:02:00] working on a blog from my website.

I'm one of the ma the first article I'm writing about is about how play isn't just confined to childhood and to children. It's something that is ever present in even our adult lives as well. And it's, when I'm trying to apply it to myself, I find it a little bit more difficult. But I suppose in terms of play in my everyday life, I, I firstly consider myself to be quite a social person.

I don't have the biggest social group here over in London at the minute 'cause a lot of my friends and family are back home. But I generally love getting out and about socializing with whoever I can. Meals, drinks out in Central London. That's generally what I consider my play. But in terms of every day, I suppose I've really, since finishing the masters and I've had more time to myself and less time studying.

And in the books I've really. Committed myself to a lot more exercise and [00:03:00] like physical movement. And that's something I suppose when we're thinking about play, it's really about how you unwind and how you switch off a little bit and just let go. And that's how I perceive it anyway.

So generally I've really gotten into weightlifting very surprisingly recently. So I, and there's a social element to that as well because it's small group classes and I'm chatting to people and I've met various people through that as well. So that's really how I kind of harness that social connection that I really need to like be playful and be just a little bit more at ease.

I think. So I never. Considered myself to be like a fits for or any sort of exerciser. But really in the last six to eight months, I've just really thrived off that quite addictive. And it's quite, yeah, it's just very much something that I absolutely love doing recently and I just never thought I'd be that person.

So not sure if that generally [00:04:00] encompasses play, but in my mind, that's what just came there first off. 

Julie: Yeah. And I think that's really interesting. It's what comes to your mind, what's play for you and for each of us as individuals within families, whether it's little people, big people, older people, what we consider play.

I interviewed somebody and play for him was. Clearing out his kitchen cupboards, sort, taking everything out, cleaning it, and putting it all back again. Okay. That felt really playful for that person. For me it's being in the shed and planting plants and just watching things grow. I find that incredibly playful and creative.

So it's, how you as the individual want to define it. 

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: It's very 

Ellen: person I suppose. 

Julie: Weightlifting. Yeah. Can, 

Ellen: and I'm not lifting anything heavy know. Don't be fooled, but it's very much start scratch trying to build up strength. But it's something that I'm [00:05:00] just Yeah. Very into unboxing as well.

I think I'm getting a bit of my frustrations. I do wish I had that during the Master's. I think it would've helped me, but yeah. Okay. 

Julie: So yeah, let's go back to this master. So as you say, it's a two year full-time training and BAPT, British Association of Play Therapists is, the professional body that you and I share.

And, I was with you and your cohort as one of your educators. And it is quite a journey. Students go on in that two years or three years, if they're doing it part-time. And I think it's now called an extended clinical project. But it what many listeners will understand as a dissertation, and it could be about a particular client issue or a particular client.

It could be a heuristic project where some of your colleagues [00:06:00] really delved into something that was important for them. It could be a big literature review, but you chose to do in it, it was an extended clinical project you were doing because you were thinking about something in the room with clients.

Yeah. And I love the title of your dissertation, which is, do you remember the title? 

Ellen: Pardon? Sorry, you broke up a little bit there. 

Julie: Oh, let me go back again. 

Ellen: Okay. Yeah, 

Julie: yeah. So thinking about the title of your dissertation, which I think was, oh, what a mess. 

Ellen: Oh, what a mess. Yes. 

Julie: Exclamation mark. And you were looking at do you want to tell us a little bit, why you chose this as your project and what was the impetus?

What was your experience that led into it? 

Ellen: Yeah, so this project was very close to my own personal experiences and was very much rooted in kind of my own personal [00:07:00] experiences as well as my training experience and what I had gone through or. It felt so far in some of my placement sorry, I'm after messing up that answer so much.

I felt like I was saying the word experience way too much, so I tried to not say it, but, alright, 

Julie: let's go 

Ellen: back. 

Julie: Let's, phillipa just, scrap that bit. So the title of your dissertation was, oh what a Mess. 

Ellen: Oh, what a Mess. Yes. 

Julie: Could be a sum and great title and it really does sum up what you explored.

Could you tell us a little bit about what was the impetus? What got you to think about messy play, therapeutic presence, play therapy? What was it that was going on for you that led to that? 

Ellen: Okay. Yeah, so this was definitely a very personal thing to me and it was definitely rooted in my own experiences in my personal life as [00:08:00] well as some of my experiences as a trainee therapist on the course.

So I really found myself struggling with mess in the playroom. And as I said as well, it's spills into who I am as a person as well. Like I generally am very tidy, very neat, orderly, like everything in its place. And I often found this to be quite at odds with like things that were happening in the playroom that involved messy play.

So anytime there was like paint being smeared or spilt or sand being like used or sand being made wet or anything that was that sensory intense experience was like very much a struggle for me. And I found myself this really at odds with kind of everything that we're meant to embody as therapists and to be present and engaged and focused on our ourselves as well as the child.

And to understand and to be very present with. What's happening in the playroom, and [00:09:00] I found that there was a very much an internal tension between remaining engaged and present and there with the child, but also focusing on the mess that was happening or any sort of, yeah, it was just something that I found really difficult.

And it was something that was always existing in the background. And it was something that I was a little bit ashamed or worried about as well because I'm thinking, okay, I'm training to be a play therapist. I'm meant to be accepting of all parts of the child, accept accepting of their process and their experience, but the minute I see them engaging in any sort of mess making or messy play, I find that I'm completely, I'm elsewhere and I'm not there with them anymore.

And it was just something that I really was like, I don't know, like I just, it, as I said, it made me feel a lot of shame and guilt because I was like, this isn't how it's supposed to be. And. When I was looking at different research topics and none of them were really resonating [00:10:00] with me that much and I was, I did give myself a lot of time to think about a topic and I had been jotting random ideas down here and there, but it sounds a bit cliche, but generally it did actually just come to me like a light bulb moment to look at mess and to look at messy play and what that experience was like in the playroom and how I experienced, and maybe how other therapists experienced as it as well.

So generally, it just was rooted in this tension that I felt between the. This mess that I knew was important and that I knew was pivotal to a child's experience and to a child's process. But also how I managed that and how I ma, like, how I was able to face that in the playroom. So yeah, that's basically where it started.

Julie: And that's that for me, that's quite a brave thing to do, to really look at the thing that caused you most tension and shame. Yeah. And, to write about that and to have it written [00:11:00] down and tell, excuse me, tell other people about it. Yeah. And that's part of the sort of bravery and the honesty, the congruence that's needed as a therapist.

Presumably your supervisor knew that this was bubbling away for you. 

Ellen: Yeah, absolutely. It's something that we had spoken about a lot and delved into a lot in supervision, and she's the opposite to me. She's bring all the mess. She loves it. She's, which again? She's, trying to coach me in a way or kind of help me in a way.

But then again that's just reinforcing shame internally for me. 'cause I'm like, okay, great. There's another person that's accepting and, really thrives on that kind of environment. But then there's me that's, that really it makes my, skin kind of crawl. It's just, it's something that really impacted me.

And yeah we did a lot of practical work as well and she introduced me to different types of slime and we did some corn flour mixes as well. And I think that really helped [00:12:00] me as well, because a lot of the time it was more so I was just afraid of the thought of these things. I hadn't actually experienced the kind of sensory impact or the kind of sensory properties of these materials themselves.

So I think exposure to them as well and that safe contained supervision environment like was quite helpful as well. 

Julie: So that, that's really because part of what you write about in the introduction is, defining what messy play is and something about almost the problem of the word mess.

Because Yeah. That can imply something distasteful or something that's a problem. Absolutely. Whereas you used just then the word sensory or explorative. And that, seems to have a sort of more generous feel about it. Oh, the child's engaging in sensory play. It's creating a mess for me to clear up.

But actually the child needs to do [00:13:00] this and yeah. In the end, I remember we had lots of discussions about the terminology. In the end you went with the word messy. 

Because you wanted to think about its impact on you. 

Ellen: Yeah, absolutely. 

Julie: But what you called mess, it sounds like your supervisor wouldn't have called mess, would've called engagement in sensory materials or something.

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: So even in the choice of your words you are, showing how you felt about this, experience. 

Ellen: Yeah, absolutely. That's a good point, Stephanie. 

Julie: Yeah. So once, yeah, you'd found your topic, you'd written your introduction, told us about what was happening for you, and did you have a sense in can you describe to us what you then, what were you looking for as far as a method?

Because you could have done a survey, you [00:14:00] could have done a heuristic project. What was it about what you chose to do? Could you describe to us what it was you, chose to do and why? Because I think that's really important to look at. 

Ellen: Yeah, so it was definitely, I definitely tied with the idea of doing a bit of heur or doing heuristic research instead of just a purely qualitative exploration, which is what I ended up going for, because there was quite a personal element to this.

But I ended up opting for a qualitative approach, which was interviews then with b play therapists. But I think I really wanted I knew about, my own experience and I knew how I, where I stood with the topic. Obviously there was a lot more that I needed to delve into, and there was a lot more that I did learn, but I wanted to gain the perspectives.

Of other more experienced play therapists who had basically been in the game a bit longer than me and who would have more experience [00:15:00] and more insight. And that's definitely what I think brought up more fruitful results in the end. But I just think I really wanted to, although I appreciated the personal impetus and that it was rooted in my own experiences and my own kind of perceptions, but I wanted to just get a better insight into kind of the bigger picture and to gain different perspectives from different play therapists working across different types of settings.

And basically, yeah, I was quite limited in my research as in my experience as a play therapist. So I think it was a lot more rich. I think gaining that insight from other people who had a wealth of experience. So that's really where that came from, that I, where why I opted for that. 

Julie: Yeah. So to interview, I think you did three interviews with experience.

Yes. Did they, was it five years or something? They had to be experienced. 

Ellen: Yeah. They had to be experie. Yeah. Over five years experience. So I think the, what it ended up being was a. One person had [00:16:00] 20, 23 years experience and then someone else had six years experience and equally rich and different and had different insights and stuff.

But yeah, it was, I really, yeah, I valued that kind of input from them as well. It was, yeah, it was very enlightening, as I'm sure we'll get to that. 

Julie: Yeah, we'll get to as we go along and just to not miss the, generosity that we all feel as the university staff, but also students to those who say yes to being interviewed for these projects because otherwise they'd never take place.

So thank you. Those three people thank you. I dunno, 

Ellen: you know who you're, 

Julie: you know who they're, I never will find out who they're, no. If that remains anonymous. But those three people, if you're listening, thank you so much for what you've offered. So Ellen, once you've put together your introductions and your questions.

What, okay. Can you tell, do you remember what your, the question was? What was the [00:17:00] main question? 

Ellen: It was some, I literally read it this morning. It was that water play therapist experiences with therapeutic presence when, messy play is happening during a session. I think something, like that.

I think upon reflection I probably could have been even more honed in with my question and maybe a little bit, maybe a little bit broad in parts. But that was what I eventually came up with. And then there was some sub que questions as well, which I definitely can't recite, but that's where you can really delve into the different layers and stuff like that.

But the, that was my main research question. 

Julie: Yeah. And think, yeah, I think you were thinking about what are the challenges and benefits for both the child and the, therapist. But it was mainly the impact on the therapists. Perception of the therapeutic relationship or, the presence that you are able to maintain as a therapist, even though you might be having [00:18:00] big feelings yourself about what's going on.

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: And I guess that could be like you, a kind of feeling of oh no, and I'm gonna need to clear this up afterwards. Or what, it sounds like your supervisor would've been more a, can I bring it on? Yeah. Let's, have more of this, which could also have an impact. So yeah, thinking from different angles.

So the next stage was then to delve into the literature. And did you find any previous research that had been done about this, that the therapists attitudes or impacts a around messy play? Did that exist or nearly exist? 

Ellen: It did nearly exist with the. Very lar a very big study by Sue Gas going she does quite a lot of work in this area, like sensory and messy play.

And she [00:19:00] did a research study on like emotional responses to therapist, play therapist emotional responses to messy play. And that was, I'm a little bit hazy on it now, which I probably should, I read over it this morning. But it's, that was a PT UK therapist and it was, overall, it's, I found a little bit of a confusing study.

'cause it was very, there was questionnaires, there was interviews, there was observations. It was very, there was a lot of different layers to it. But she found, she really looked at therapists emotional responses and how they react to messy play in the moment and how it was impacted by various external factors like therapists, mood on that day and the.

How the pace at which the mess unfolded. So if it was a very rapid, intense splurge of mess, particularly towards the end of the [00:20:00] session that found therapists found that more difficult to manage and they reported feeling more like uneasy with that. But really that was obviously very closely linked to my own research, but of course mine was the added layer of linking it then to therapeutic presence and that very specific kind of therapeutic process or that therapeutic like level state of being, I'll say, because it's a very multi-layered, pivotal kind of state of being within therapy.

So that's where mine added on. So gas coin looked at more emotional responses and whereas mine was linking. Mike messy play directly to therapists experience of presence. When that was happening, that was the clinical study in relation to me, specifically messy play. And then there was another art psychotherapy study that was also [00:21:00] very closely linked, but of course was linked to art psychotherapy instead of play therapy.

And that looked at the therapeutic presence for the art psychotherapist. And I think it was done in Germany, that study. And it found that various materials could really impact how present and the art therapist felt. So like the. Physical quality of certain materials. So therapist reportedly absolutely that like cold and powdery substances could make them, could impact their present in the presence in the moment.

As well as other things like level of training, things like supervision, preparation and emotional grounding were all found to like really impact how present and engaged therapists felt in the moment during sessions. So that, again, was very closely linked to my own, but mine was in a play therapy context rather than a art psychotherapy context.

Definitely. Obviously took me a [00:22:00] long time to actually come to, it took a lot of digging into the research to actually find these studies. Like they definitely don't just pop out at you straight away. And it's about being very creative in your searches, I think, and not just expecting the right piece of research to just jump out at you the minute you type into Google, which I think is what I expected.

So definitely you need to be like quite creative and a bit more nuanced in your searching. But yeah, they were the two main studies I think, that were very closely linked to my own research. 

Julie: Yeah. Thank you. And I think that's a really important point. It's playing around with the, search terms, with the, is the, what you put into your library search or your chat GBT or whatever your, ways are of finding these articles is having to tweak your terminologies or the combination of words.

Yeah. And as always, it could be there is something out there that [00:23:00] we didn't discover in that project. 

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: But ultimately you got to the end of the literature review saying there is a gap. 

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: I'm going to now fill that gap. And indeed you have filled that gap. Not quite published yet, but we'll work on that.

But one of the things I was, I remember we spent time thinking about is what is it? What part of it of the messy play is that is bothering you or other therapists? And I remember thinking about, is it in the observing of what's happening? And I'm interested in what gas coin is saying there about the speed at which it happens.

I don't remember as thinking about that but the pace or the sun. Yeah. So observing and then. The times when we are invited to participate. You get your hands in this too, [00:24:00] Ellen, Julie, put your feet into this, move this the actual participating in it. And then of course there's always what I think you called the managing the aftermath.

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: And can you say a little bit about that? That that's the very academic term, managing the aftermath, but Yeah. What was in your mind when you were thinking about that part? 

Ellen: Yeah, so there's a few different ways I could have worded that, but I somehow managed to land on that. But I think it was a, it was what made most sense to me, but definitely it's what I spoke about earlier, about being quite a orderly, neat, tidy person in all aspects of my life.

I think that is one of the main parts that really. That, that really impacted me with messy play was thinking about the cleanup time afterwards. And I think it was a more of a loss of control. Like I can control certain things in [00:25:00] the playroom, like how my toys are presented and how I have my room and things like that.

But when that's taken away from me and there's the mess being created, it's something that I just really struggle with. So the aftermath is really, it amplified kind of my struggles with things not being exactly how I want them, I think, and having to reset the room and put things back in a timely manner.

I'm quite, I can be quite an anxious person generally, but I can be very anxious about time and I can be. I can be anxious about as I said, losing control over certain things. So this is like the perfect combination of just stress for me. I think So I think managing the aftermath is really, it's like focusing in on some of the constraints that we face as play therapists as well.

So room constraints, time constraints. Yeah. And having that time to really reset yourself, reset the materials, reset the room, and I [00:26:00] think that can be quite a point of contention for me. So that's something that I wanted to focus on. 

Julie: Yeah. As you say, the very practical reality of the next client is coming in 15 minutes and how, can I reset the room and reset myself?

Ellen: Yeah, 

Julie: exactly. Be fully present for the next client. Yeah, that's a huge part of it. Yeah. And I remember there was something around when you were doing the literature review. Which is really like a massive essay. 

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: About the topics and about similar studies. That sense that you went into the sort of safety of your head.

That was your, area of control. You were able to write fabulous literature review, and then I think I would call it an invitation. You might have called it an instruction. 

Ellen: Yeah. I, 

Julie: I, [00:27:00] I invited you to pause for a weekend. And can you say a little bit about that because we've reached a point where you were so in your head and you were so immersed in your computer and yet were writing about messy clay, and I invited you to do something that I Yeah, but you want to just tell us a little bit about that sequence?

Ellen: Yeah, so it's as you said, I was just way too, in my head, literature and writing and academia and essays is where I just feel comfortable and safe. So I think that's where I kept reverting back to. And obviously that's very important, that's a very important aspect 

Julie: of 

Ellen: research and academia. But I think I needed to just go back to basics and I needed to pair it back and just remember why I actually chose this topic and what it actually means for me.

Because the personal impetus is I think what really drives what drove my [00:28:00] research anyway, and what really kept like my interest alive. And I was forgetting about that because I, yeah. Picked this topic, I think in September, October. And I was lucky enough to be able to keep the topic throughout, but I think I got a little bit exhausted with it.

And I was reverting back to just looking at studies and you were just saying, Alan we know about the studies, we know that there's literature there, but I wanna see you in this. And I was like, oh, okay. I don't forget how to do that. As you said, you invited me to put the laptop away for a few days, which back then seemed like a nearly impossible task.

But I definitely, I did do it and I got messy myself. And I did this at home in my tiny little flat, but I did it in a way that still made me comfortable. Like I put bin bags on the floor and covered my, lovely white couches with newspaper and stuff. But I just got very messy. I covered my hands in paint.

I splatted paint. [00:29:00] I used my feet at one point and had paper spread all over the floor, and I just really actually got into it. And I'm not gonna say it was the most enjoyable thing I've ever done. 'cause it was definitely, that's the whole point in the research there, it was a struggle, but it, reminded me, it gave me that embodied experience of, okay, this is what I feel sometimes in the playroom.

It's coming back now. And I just remembered what the whole point of the research was basically. And. Then that was followed on by words as well. I did more of a creative exercise where I wrote some things down 'cause that's how my brain works. Yeah, it was definitely important for me just to take a step away from the laptop.

'cause it's so easy just to get so fixated on it and just forget why you're doing it. And for me, mine was so personal and it was such a felt embodied thing that I needed to trigger my brain to remember exactly what that kind of felt like. So [00:30:00] Yeah. It was a difficult task at the time, even though some people might think getting, doing a bit of finger paint and feet painting is a, is an easy thing to do.

But it's, for me, it was definitely something that pushed me outta my comfort zone. And yeah, really what came after that was quite fruitful then. Definitely. And the break was needed. 

Julie: Yeah. And that, thank you for entering into that relationship of trust to do that. I think if I'd asked you to do that in your first year of training, that wouldn't have worked.

But by towards the end of the second year of training student and educator, we know each other quite well. And yeah, you took the risk and as you say, went back to the embodied experience and as play therapists or any of the creative arts, we work with our bodies. 

Ellen: Yeah, 

Julie: absolutely. We work with visceral experiences and, going back to that and [00:31:00] did you ever put them, and I think I did see the picture.

Did it go into your appendices in the end or? Yes, 

Ellen: that all went into my appendices. Yeah. Yeah, 

Julie: it was. So it's there. 

Ellen: Yeah. And I actually, I used one of the pictures. In the, a presentation that I did about my research for the arts and play therapies a couple of months ago as well. I used one of the pictures, I didn't give any context to the picture, but it was just alongside one of the slides.

But I just thought it was a nice way just to include that kind of, I think it was alongside some words about being able to take, breaks and being able to step away from the laptop and just, yeah, do whatever works for you. So I think I used it in that context 'cause it was relevant for me in that way.

Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And, different to somebody else might have created a similar picture, but, and that could have been enjoyable and releasing and playful in a different way. But for you that was uncomfortable [00:32:00] challenging, but the created picture could look quite the same. So without the context, it would be interesting to see how other people saw that.

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: Yeah, 

Ellen: absolutely. Yeah. 

Julie: Interesting. 

So you did your literature review and then discovered as we hope everybody does by the end, last paragraph of the literature review. I found this, I found that, but I haven't found exactly this and this is why my research matters. So how, showing how your research adds onto the long story of research.

So no piece of research comes out of nowhere. 

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: You are telling the backstory of coming to your research. And then yeah. What actually happened with your how, did you find your participants? How, did all that pan out? 

Ellen: Yeah. So finding participants for me, luckily was actually quite straightforward.

Something that I had a lot of anxiety around, [00:33:00] but generally, I think play therapists are, quite forthcoming when they see research invitations being sent out, which was yeah, it was, yeah, very it was good to see. So I basically, when I had all my ethical approval and I had my intro and my lip review largely finished, then I, at least actually the course convener sent out the invitation to all of the B play therapists, qualified B play therapists basically just my research title, which I think triggered the interest of a lot of people.

'cause I did actually have very. Like a very large response. It was like, it was quite reassuring. I was like, okay, maybe this is an interesting topic, or it did ignite a lot of people's interests. So I was quite lucky in the, response that I got to that and lucky in a way. But then I had to choose, I had to use a purpose of sampling method [00:34:00] to choose who I would actually interview for my research.

So it was based upon how people presented their interests to me in the email. So people, if they sent a response to me about my research, it was chosen about who seemed the most enthusiastic, I suppose about it, which I dunno if that's probably the most useful way to do it. But when there was such a large response, that was all I had to go by.

So it was, yeah, it was quite, it was a lot more of a straightforward process than I had anticipated. And yeah, and then I did three online interviews all probably about a week apart from one another. And it all happened very quick and fast. And it was yeah, it was amazing. I found that each interview to be like a mini supervision session because although I was asking questions and it was quite structured, [00:35:00] it was also open-ended in another way.

And it was a back and forth and it was a ping pong match of experiences and different opinions and stuff like that. And I really gained a lot from the participants before I even analyzed any of the data before I got into any of that. So it was a much more joyous experience than I, anticipated it would be.

Once again, me anticipating. That things will be a bit more difficult than they actually end up being. But that's just how I work. 

Julie: Yeah. So interesting that you had many more participant offers than you needed. And then, yeah, you had to think what method you were going to use to choose, and it could have just been the first three.

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: Could have been based on all sorts of other criteria, but you, found your own criteria and then interviewed those three. And there you, did you transcribe what [00:36:00] how did you do the next stage? 

Ellen: Yeah, so each interview was audio recorded with consent of course, and then transcribed and yeah, so transcribed verbatim.

So I used an app on my phone to basically to transcribe probably 75%. And then the rest of it was done like manually by, just by me listening back and 

Typing it all out, basically. A therapeutic process, transcribing interviews. I'm sure it would be a different story if I had 20 to transcribe it, but having three was, yeah, it was, and it really helps you to get to know the data even more by going through it all and Yeah.

Really going through sentence by sentence, word for word. So I think that's a really, you could probably get very sophisticated transcribing tools that probably do it word for word, but I think being able to have to go back and go over it myself, I think that really [00:37:00] starts off the first phase of the analysis, which is immersing yourself in it.

Yeah. Yeah. It's quite useful getting to know it. Yeah. Getting to know it. Yeah. 

Julie: Yeah. Really getting to know it so well, and then the coding, did you do what you what was the method you used? 

Ellen: So I did thematic analysis so that, God, I nearly forgot there that thematic analysis. Yeah. So that's done by formatting codes basically.

So as I said, I familiarized myself with all the data, so reading, rereading, and then I did it all actually on my laptop. Some people find it easier to print off, some people use online kind of tools, but I did it all myself manually on Microsoft Word. So sifting through the transcripts and whatever comes out, whatever pops out you, whatever you think is interesting.

I just highlighted [00:38:00] and did this with each transcript and then just made like initial codes. So like it's like labeling the different quotes and the different things that are coming up and then eventually you cross reference that between. The three transcripts or however many you have, and then you group it into, you start to group them, and then it just becomes more and more refined and you then change the names just to be a little bit more specific.

And I'm definitely simplifying it now. It's, no, yeah. It's a long process. Yeah, it's a long process, but it's just about finding themes and patterns and what, sticks out. And I think somehow, I watched a lot of YouTube videos as well. One quote from someone that really helped me was that they're, the themes aren't just sitting there waiting for you to find them.

They're not predetermined. It's like the themes are determined by you and how you engage with [00:39:00] the data and how you like your own reflexivity throughout. It's like there's no right or wrong themes. You can follow the steps and of course that ensures that you're doing it like correctly, but. The themes aren't sitting there waiting, like you need to come up with them yourself, and it's about how you interpret and perceive things.

And it's about, yeah. So it's a very personal thing and someone else could analyze the same set of data and get completely different themes. So it's very much about how you engage with it. So I think that really helps me in thinking that, okay, there is a specific way to do this, but the themes that I come up with eventually are how I've interpreted it.

And other people could interpret it in various different ways. As long as you're answering your research question and working towards your sub questions, then that's. That's all you can do, Rudy. That's what I, that's what I went by anyway. 

Julie: And, Ellen you've described that brilliantly there. Yeah.

That sense of it's [00:40:00] not waiting for you to go and find it, which might be if you were doing a qualitative, a more number-based statistical research there is data to be proved and to go and find, but when you are doing, I think it was reflective thematic analysis, Braun and Clark. 

Ellen: Yeah. You 

Julie: It's, you as the researcher are a huge part of the process and you are developing themes rather than finding things.

Ellen: Yes, 

Julie: absolutely. You they, they emerge because of what you also bring to it. 

Ellen: Yeah, 

Julie: absolutely. 

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: And, it reminds me perhaps of I dunno what you think of when I'm seeing a client and I am. In my mind and with the client developing themes in, in their therapeutic process that if, that client, that little one is working with a different therapist, something different would [00:41:00] emerge, or the words or that are used and the, way things are thought about would be quite different with a different therapist.

So it is I think even in our therapy we are. Developing themes rather than finding themes. And that's my thought today. I might change that another day, but something, it's a 

Ellen: nicer way to think about it, I think it's, it definitely helped me anyway, it's about the dynamic and how you're engaging with things and as you said with the client as well.

I can def I think it could definitely be applied to that, but it's just about how your own personal kind of interpretation and perception of things, which I think is quite comforting. And it's also a bit scary 'cause you're like, okay, this is actually, this is on me now. I need to, it's, yeah.

It's a bit of pressure, but I think it's also a nice way to think about it because again, it's your research, so you're the one that's spending all this time and effort on it. So it's, really about how you delve into it. Yeah. And 

Julie: I think what, and also what [00:42:00] you notice, what you declare as your biases or your limitations, that you, notice that and you're very open about that.

And so you, you got your, you did your coding, you got your themes, and could you talk us through some of those themes or have you, got a sense of what they were? 

Ellen: Yes. So there was, I think about four themes that were then further divided into sub themes. So one of my main themes was around like the effective facilitation of messy play.

And that was around, that was then developed in or further refined into I think four or five sub themes around different things like preparation, which kind of alluded to how therapists can. Prepare both themselves, can prepare the materials in the room to, let's [00:43:00] say, promote therapeutic presence during messy play.

So there was therapists who said that they might, that they would exclude certain materials from their play kit that would really, that could really impact how present and focused they felt during a session. So if someone hated slime and that really impacted them, then they wouldn't include that in their kit.

And yeah, a point that came up a lot was around paint as well and around preparing your paint pots so that you only have like small paint pots rather than five liter ones. And if there was any mess made around that, that it would be a little bit more contained and easy to manage. That was one of the sub themes there and also around emotional preparation of the therapist, which kind of aligned with some previous research as well.

And it was about how some therapists would engage in like grounding techniques before a session if they knew [00:44:00] that it was gonna be like super messy and to really ground themselves in the room and in the space so that they felt more just present when things were becoming a little bit less predictable and a little bit more chaotic with the child.

So I found that really interesting and also time came up as a really big factor as well that really impacted our present therapist felt when there was messy play happening. Really about, I touched on it earlier about having time after a session to clean up and how that really impacted how therapists felt when during messy play and their presence and kind of other aspects of time about having time to, as I say, clean up the room, but also to like clean up themselves in a way, or to, that's what one person said, but clean 

Julie: themselves.

Ellen: Yeah. Even like just [00:45:00] mentally just to decompress and be like, okay that was a lot, but now I need to see my next client in the next 10 minutes. So yeah, that was something that came up quite a lot just about having time and space just to really be able to facilitate this mess, messy play in a way that was really, that they were able to stay focused on with the child's process.

Yeah, another thing that came up that was quite. Another team I should say, sorry, nothing that came up was really about how therapists capacity to remain present and focused during messy play was experience. So a lot of, most of the participants said that during their training or even directly after their training, that it would've been something that they struggled with a lot.

But as time went on and with di exposure to different types of client groups, that they really under developed a more nuanced understanding of [00:46:00] What, kind of mess a child is engaging in. So that if they, what's helpful what might be helpful and what's not helpful for a child. And they really gained and when to set limits and when to come in with boundaries and things like that.

So over time they just developed more of an awareness around this and that experience really helps them in this regard, which I found quite reassuring as well because okay. Maybe, this is something for me that will grow a little bit with time as well. And I'm trying to remind myself of my other teams 

Julie: something about limit setting.

Ellen: Yeah. Yes. So yeah. Yeah. Limit setting. So really about therapists trying to find the balance between kind of permissiveness and setting boundaries. And it was more. Proactive strategies, I think, which is like limit setting is a very kind of concrete, proactive [00:47:00] way to I don't wanna say control, but to, help therapists in the moment when they felt that things may have been come, are going a little bit out of control.

So limit setting and setting boundaries was really important for the, for all therapists. All participants in remaining focused and therapeutically present when things were getting a little bit messy. So I think that was, really important. That was quite prominent for participants as well.

'cause I think that's quite important to have those limits in place, to be able to contain the mess in a way that the child can still, they can still have their process, but it's just done in a way that's, yeah. That the therapist can still feel like present with it as well and not completely just elsewhere.

Julie: Yeah. And you talked about that for yourself in the introduction about how you found it really difficult to remain present, and I think your [00:48:00] participants talked a little bit about what they do to do some self-regulation of themselves. Yeah, 

Ellen: yeah. 

Julie: Even not just before and after the session, but even within the session.

And is, there stuff you remember around what that self-regulation practice might have been for some of those, interviewees? 

Ellen: Yeah, so one of them, one of my participants spoke about how when things were getting a little bit chaotic and a little bit me, a little bit messy, that they really had to direct their focus back to the child and their story and their needs, and to really think about what was underlying that mess making need and participants spoke about.

Like messy play being like a, means of emotional expression and catharsis and expressing the inexpressible and externalizing what may be an internal mess for a child and getting it out of their system and [00:49:00] that coming out and a complete mess being made in the playroom. So when participants are struggling a little, bit there and then in the moment with a mess that's being created, it's about not focusing on the mess itself, but really diverting their attention back to, okay, what is this mess making need?

What's it communicating, what's happening here for this child? Which I think, yeah, which they said that really helped them just to focus back in on the child and their process rather than the mess that was unfolding in front of them. And that's something that I really took then from myself.

But yeah, that was more of an in the moment strategy is like, don't look at what's happening in the mess, just. Focus on exactly what you think may be happening for the child there and then 

Julie: Yeah. And that, and also that sense of when it gets too much, because we can get overwhelmed. Yeah. Is to say to the child, I think one of your participants said something about, oh, you just need to give me a moment.

Yeah. And I need to get myself [00:50:00] back together, or I need to calm, I can't remember how they phrased it, but I sense that it's okay to recognize what's happening with the child and to go, whoa, this is really big. What's happening here? Do you know? I think we should take a moment just to whatever you need to do to just balance yourself again as the therapist.

Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. It's that congruence as well. It's just being honest about what's happening there for you in the moment. And yeah, I think, yeah, that, that was, I remember one of my participants saying that as well, and another one said about, there was a huge mess made in the room, and they just had to pause for a minute and just say that they were just gonna clear a path.

So clear a path through the room so that they were still able to move around somewhat and they just communicated that to the child and that was fine. But it's just about instead of you sitting there like keeping everything in. And I suppose obviously there is certain things, you can't just say whatever you want, but Of 

Julie: course, [00:51:00] yeah, 

Ellen: about like I think when it is becoming too much in a therapeutic way, just saying, okay, I just need a minute here.

Just, and I think that's, yeah, that's a healthy way I think of moving on with things rather than just, which is what I would probably do sit in and be like, oh my God, I can't believe all this is happening. But it's just, I thought that was useful. 

Julie: Yeah. And, to have some congruence. Congruence isn't a complete, I'll tell you everything that's going on for me.

Yeah, absolutely. And we talk about that a lot on the training. But sometimes a sense of if I am having a big feeling and if that big feeling is really getting in the way of me being present with the child is to gently kindly, without revealing too much, just recognize that with the child, I need to just look out the window for two seconds, three seconds, just to get myself back together again so I can really be [00:52:00] with you.

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: And it's, okay to do that. And that might actually help the client at some point. And, that what, I'm picking up from you is a sense of. 

Having done this research and developed these themes and heard from your professional colleagues who are as yet more experienced than you, that it's made an, it is changed, it's had an impact on you and how you are in the room and in your recommendations there there was things around actually how, is life different for you as a play therapist now that you've been through this research process?

Could you say a little bit about that? 

Ellen: Yeah, definitely. So I think it would be remiss of me to sit here and say that I'm completely fine with math and that it's been a totally transformative experience. But it was definitely hugely, [00:53:00] it was transformative in so many ways in that I think that. What we just spoke about there, about bringing the focus back to the child and really focusing on them and their needs and what they've been through so, far in their short lives.

And just thinking about that mess making need. And that's what's really helped me because I could become so fixated on the paint that's being spilled or the glue that's being put on the table, rather than looking at it as a way of kind of externalizing what might be going on inside for the child. So I think that's something that's really.

Helped me. And it's something that as I'm going into my own practice now at the minute as a newly qualified, it's something that I'm really taking with me as well as the struggles as well, because I think they need to be acknowledged and thought about as much as how much I think I've changed as well.

I think that being open and honest about the struggles [00:54:00] that I've had, I think is what's really helped me in this, way as well. And it's what really underpinned the whole research. And I think as well, it's about understanding that there are various kind of internal and external kind of strategies or if you will that I can in partake in or engage in to really help.

Me in the moment and to help me in the room. So as I spoke about like having certain materials, like preparation, setting up the room in certain ways excluding certain things that would really, I think, impact how present I would be able to feel in the moment if they were being n So very simple things like I think really, but it was quite daunting when I was doing my research because a lot of my participants had the opposite 

About [00:55:00] to me. Yeah. But they, so when we did our interviews they're very much, the overarching kind of message from them was that they were very accepting of messy play and that they really thrived in those type of environments and that they really understood about the benefits and how amazing it was.

And that made me initially panic. 'cause I was thinking, oh God, here we go again. Like people with very different experiences to me, and maybe I'm the problem, but they were always, this overarching experience was always caveated with, oh, but I do this to help manage it. Or this is how it can impact me in these situations, but this is how I deal with it.

So it wasn't a pure, it was a, an acceptance of messy play and, but it was with terms and conditions. So it was, if that makes any sense. It was, a, yeah, I'm accepting of it, but I've done this [00:56:00] to be able to help me accepting of it over time. It wasn't just a, oh, I think it's great, but there's nothing more to say on it.

It was very much, it was a lot more nuanced and it was very Like Lined with a lot of proactive strategies and ways to manage kind of mess to make sure that you're able to stay present when it's happening. So I thought that was really interesting. And it was ways like a, like a manual of how to how best to sustain, maintain, and promote presence when there's messy play happening that worked for these therapists.

It may not work for everyone, it might not work for me, but it was just yeah, it was just ways to manage, which I thought was very helpful. 

Julie: Yeah, that's, and Ellen, I'm wondering if, was it disappointing not to find a participant who didn't like this? Like you? 

Ellen: Yeah, absolutely. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Ellen: Yeah, definitely.[00:57:00] 

Yeah, it was crazy 'cause I thought with the uptake on the research, like the, responses that I got, I thought surely, I dunno, maybe I was just naive. I thought that most people would've been triggered by the messy play and then that kind of anyone who responded would've just automatically had a similar experience to me, which is just obviously in hindsight now it's, not a very helpful way to think.

But yeah, definitely disappointed. As I was doing the interviews, I found myself a little bit, I wouldn't say disappointed in the moment, but just oh, okay. I wonder how this is gonna work. But that made the research, that made the whole thing even more, I think, constructive and helpful. I think that they were so different to me and I It made it, yeah, I had to delve into it even further then, because it was, yeah, it was different to the research that existed.

It was also different to my own experience. So [00:58:00] it wasn't straightforward, but yeah, it was, I was definitely disappointed not to have at least one, one ally in this regard. 

Julie: Yeah. And, I wonder, as I'm sitting here now, I'm thinking, I wonder if, in your flyer, in your advert, in your putting out there for, participants, whether we might have asked for people who also find messy, play distasteful or difficult.

But we didn't, and yeah. How that could have colored the whole research. That, that would be your next project, is just find some allies. And I'm wondering right at the beginning you were thinking about that you used the word shame. At having such a different attitude towards mess and exploratory play in that way in the room to your supervisor and [00:59:00] has that shame lessened?

Has it dissipated? Has that shifted somehow 

Ellen: in 

Julie: doing the research? 

Ellen: Yeah, I definitely think, I wouldn't use the term shame at all anymore. It's definitely just ave a much more heightened awareness of my own needs and how I, am in the playroom and what I need to do to help myself as well and to obviously inadvertently help the clients that I'm working with.

But I wouldn't use the term shame anymore because I think it has really shifted. And a deeper awareness of myself I think has lessened that. And it's not just, we all bring our own. We all bring our own like individual characteristics to the therapeutic space and relationship. And this is just one of mine.

And I know I'm not alone. I've definitely just, as I said, I've man, I've come up with different ways to [01:00:00] facilitate mess in the room, but more of an in more of a contained way maybe my, idea of mess, facilitating mess would be completely different to someone else's and what people would Yeah.

Have in the playroom is different to what I would, but that's just how it is. We all bring such different things and yeah, it's about how we bring in our own selves as well. So that's just part of my therapeutic self we'll say. 

Julie: Yeah, a huge sense of moving from shame to acceptance and understanding.

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: And how that is what we're so often offering to our clients as well. An opportunity to move from shame to acceptance. It doesn't make the thing go away wherever the thing is of the stuff. It, just recolor it and reframes it. 

Ellen: Absolutely. Yeah. 

Julie: So I'm so glad. That's what one of the things that came out of this research and just as we, we are moving towards the end [01:01:00] is I'm, aware of sitting here as your therapist, educator, and now a professional colleague.

Any recommendations for anybody who's training therapists, whether it's play therapists, counselors, anybody working with adults or children any, recommendations to us as trainers? That you'd like to make, 

Ellen: make. So for you as a trainer 

Julie: Yeah. Or within our training is there, something we might have done differently in your training that would've alleviated something or given you an experience or lessened that shame?

Yeah. Yeah. Be really useful to know. 

Ellen: It's actually something that my research touched on was was recommendations as well of how maybe university training programs could have more embodied [01:02:00] experiences and more and I understand there's various constraints in a university settings, there's financial limitations and whatnot.

But I do think that what really helped me and some feedback from participants as well was that exposure to different types of materials and whatnot. Really help them in that regard. And I know that's something that I personally experienced in supervision as well. And it's that learn by doing thing or kind of understand a little bit more by actually actively participating in something.

And I think having more just messy workshops or more embodied workshops. And I know the university probably touches on, probably dips, its toe a little bit into it, but I think having a full day of just coming in and old clothes and it doesn't even need to be anything too expensive. Like maybe like newspaper and water, paper mache, things like that.

Just PVC glue. But just to really [01:03:00] have that embodied workshop and just to experience what you're comfortable with, what you're not comfortable with. Yeah. And your own personal limitations. I think and I understand obviously that might not be hugely realistic, but it's just something that came from the research and it's something that I do think really would've.

Helped me because as I said before, a lot of it, it was just the thought of certain materials or the thought of where a material could go or how messy it could get. But if you're experiencing it for yourself, you just develop more of a deeper awareness around that, I think. 

I think more, obviously I know the books are important as well, but more of a, just a silly, playful embodied workshop.

I think one of the, one of the days would be, I think really, useful. 

Julie: Well, Ellen, you'll be very, pleased to know that. Having marked and moderated your research, we did change what we did with the first years this year, and they had a whole afternoon [01:04:00] of exactly that coming in, in, in messy clothes or clothes that it doesn't matter.

And we have covered room 2, 3, 6, which you can visualize. Yeah. A beautiful room that looks over Richmond Park. Yeah. And it got pretty, pretty messy and smelly in that room that afternoon. And Exactly. That really did honestly come out of your research, Ellen, that sense of, we can talk about it, but we need to do it.

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: And it focused not so much on the potential clients that, that students are going to see, but on how the student feels really, feels viscerally, feels about touching, moving, manipulating various materials, what it feels like to see somebody else. Engage in a material. 

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: So I have to say on behalf of Rohan, thank you for alerting us to that.

And if you were to come back on the course this [01:05:00] year you'd definitely be getting your fingers and feet and ha and 

Ellen: wow. 

Julie: Various body parts and involved in actually touching it. And re then really reflecting on, ooh, what am I drawn to? What am I peled by? What, and that was really our question to students.

What can't I wait to get my hands into? 

Ellen: Yeah. 

Julie: What, oh, am I just really repel by? And what am I just curious about? 'cause I've never had a go of it before. 

Ellen: Wow. 

Julie: There's been certainly a lot more sand play and there's been a lot more embodiment play and yeah. To say to you and others past students we really do look at your recommendations because they matter.

And 

Ellen: yeah. 

Julie: So as, we come to a close, Ellen, thank you so much for telling us about your research. 

Ellen: Thank you. 

Julie: And it's wonderful to reconnect with you and welcome you to the professional body of therapists who work with [01:06:00] this mode of play. And, to know that your research has an impact. Absolutely.

And, we'll continue to, I'm sure people listening. Maybe fall into your camp that Oh yeah. I don't know what, look, yuck. That's that camp or the can't, wait to roll my sleeves up. Yeah. And be involved in this and everything in between. And there'll also be parents listening who will have aversions and attractions within embodiment play as well.

And, other therapists, social workers, anybody who's working with children, school teachers, that would be another, interview to see how Mess is in a school. Absolutely. Yeah. And how that's thought about. But for now, Ellen, thank you very, much and thank you to our listeners for listening to this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy.

Thanks, Ellen. 

Ellen: Thanks, Judy. [01:07:00] Thanks.