EP67 Sarah Naish on Fostering, Therapeutic Parenting and More.

Philippa welcomes Sarah Naish, bestselling author of The A–Z of Therapeutic Parenting, adopter of five siblings, foster carer, agency founder and keynote speaker. Sarah explains how the book grew from real-life notes and emails into a practical guide that helps carers understand fear-based, trauma-driven behaviour and respond with firm, fair boundaries, nurture, curiosity and linked logical consequences rather than punishment. They discuss how therapeutic parenting differs from “gentle parenting,” the exhaustion and repairs after ruptures, and how Sarah’s children’s books (including William Wobbly and others) help families “name the need” through story. Sarah outlines training and accredited qualifications via the Centre of Excellence in Child Trauma and the Trauma-Informed Parents Hub, plus tools for professionals to prevent blame and placement breakdown. They explore trauma-informed schools, supporting “fizzy” children with exit plans, concerns about screens for vulnerable children, and an upcoming A–Z for teens and tweens.

Books - https://uk.jkp.com/collections/author-sarah-naish

Website: https://www.coect.co.uk/

 Instagram, Facebook, | Linktree

Transcript

Sarah Naish on Fostering, Therapeutic Parenting, and More"

[00:00:00] 

Philippa: Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me Philippa. And this week my guest is Sarah Naish. She is the best selling author of the A to Z of Therapeutic Parenting, a book for I use loads. She's an adopter of five siblings, a foster carer. A founder of a fostering agency and a keynote speaker.

So welcome Sarah, and thanks for finding the time in your busy schedule to come and have a chat with us. 

Sarah: Thank you, Philip. That's pleasure. 

Philippa: Can we start with the A to Z therapeutic parenting? Because that is a book that I use and recommend almost weekly, I would say. It's a really great book.

How did you come up with it? And all the. C really realistic, helpful things 'cause. 'cause you can literally do, yeah, the [00:01:00] things that it says in the book, often, there's a lot of theory and you think, actually how does this fit into my everyday life? But the eight is said, a therapeutic parenting, you literally can do what it says.

H how did that come about? 

Sarah: It came about because when I was raising my children. I realized as a former social worker, I realized there was a big gap between what we think trauma is and what we think the behaviors are and what actually happens. So I always say my children taught me everything I know.

And the reason I think the book is so good, I couldn't, I, oh, helpful. I say I couldn't write it when the children were young. I didn't have the time, but luckily. I used to write a lot of emails to the supporting social worker to myself sometimes. That was why of protecting ourselves from allegations.

I'd record a lot of stuff sent to, and when the children were almost grown up, I realized that I had quite a lot of material there. And when I wrote it, I did [00:02:00] a lot of talk type and I imagined a parent in front of me, a therapeutic parent who was struggling with all these things. And I was very conscious that I needed to keep it in the practical.

So I wrote the book that I needed that wasn't there when my children were young, that's how we did it. So 

Philippa: and for anybody who hasn't, as in, come across it or used it. Yeah. It literally is an A to Z, isn't it? Yeah. So if you are struggling with toileting or sleeping or going, getting in the car or something like that you, can look that up.

Is that right? 

Sarah: Yeah, that's right. I recommend that people read part one first, 'cause that's got all the underlying behaviors like it explains about. The fact that children from trauma have a lot of fear and a lot of behaviors are fear based. So it explains all the basics and the basics about what therapeutic parenting is, but then you can just dive straight into the bit you want.

[00:03:00] So yes, if you've got a problem with bedwetting, for example, you just go straight to bedwetting. And I thought it was really important to set out. What I'm actually talking about. What do you mean? Because say you're talking about controlling behaviors, people might have different ideas about what that looks like.

So the first thing I do is I set out this is what it looks like and then why this happens, and then what you can do to prevent it, what you can do when the behavior's actually happening and what you can do afterwards. So yeah so, all of that made that. I'm always very grateful. People do come up to me when I'm in conferences and say that they've really appreciated the book.

And I think that the best times is when people say to me, your book was the only thing I had. I was alone. And I thought, I so recognize that feeling. I so remember feeling completely isolated and nobody gets it. And I was there with the children and everyone left me to it. 'cause they said you are a social worker.

You know [00:04:00] what you're doing. And then if you do therapeutic parenting, you get criticized. So the fact that the book has become a friend almost and that's why we did an audio version as well, which I recorded because I thought it was important. Sometimes you can just hear a friendly voice that says, yes, you, you're doing this right.

Keep going. 

Philippa: Absolutely. And I think that that having someone there often I work with foster carers and they will say sometimes I think in my head, what would Phillip have said? Or I hear your voice. And it is that being alongside, isn't it? Yeah. You can't really change the, in the moment, but you can get alongside and, if people are feeling unsupported, then that, yeah, having that there is really great.

That really is my next question is the difference between therapeutic parenting and parenting because people. I suppose sometimes I come across therapeutic parenting, you're just giving in. You're just [00:05:00] you're just mumby pam being to them. You are. Yeah. You know what they need is, and they, and.

That conversation around do they really need that? It's, and and then for parents doing therapeutic parenting, I think it is the hardest thing in the world to do because you are doing something very different than what we have probably experienced in what society does. And it's not just doing therapeutic parenting, you are literally immersed in it.

Can you just talk a little bit about the difference and why it is so hard? 

Sarah: Yeah in the eighties said I have got a definition of it, which we did with Bristol University when we were doing the research in compassion fatigue. I think the first thing is that people often confuse therapeutic parenting with gentle parenting, and that's because both models use empathy.

The big difference though is that therapeutic parents would probably [00:06:00] be described as very strict strict, but fair. We have cast iron boundaries and we use logical consequences and extended consequences when the child is not fitting into what we want 'em to fit into. My children would describe me as very strict, but very fair.

So in therapeutic parenting, we are the unassailable safe base. We always know what's going on. We have our rules, however. We also always look behind the behaviors. So when the children behave in a certain way, instead of reacting to what the child is doing, we are curious and we look behind the curtain and we think why would I wonder why the child would do that?

And then we might even share that with them and say, oh, I see what's happening here. I think a bit wobbly because dah, which is a much more useful conversation then why did you do that? So. that's where I think it it's different because standard parenting does tend to react [00:07:00] to the child. It tends to say that's it.

You've done that. You're gonna lose your pocket money when therapeutic parenting, we know that our children live in the land of now. They are always on the crashing plane. So if you say to them when the plane is crashed, we're gonna go and do so and so they're not interested because they're on the crashing plane and they're always in that, nearly always in that survival mode.

So we have to be in the moment with the child and work with it that way. I think that's, what makes a lot of difference really. We can't use cause and effect. We can't say, if you do this on Monday, so and so will happen on Friday. Our children are not projecting forward. They don't care what happens on Friday, so it's too far away.

Philippa: And I suppose I wonder about therapeutic parenting. It's more about, I suppose that, I think Karen Truman would say it's like curious, not furious. That and that being alongside, and it doesn't mean that we let the [00:08:00] kids get away with stuff. 

Sarah: No, 

Philippa: but maybe we understand a little bit more and that.

There doesn't always need to be a consequence because actually the child themselves creates much more distress and upset and, wobbliness for themselves and than as a parent we would ever do. Really? 

Sarah: That's right. That's right. And sometimes we are looking at putting a consequence in to make ourselves feel better.

But what you've gotta think about is what, you're actually trying to achieve here. So where there is a deliberate act and you feel that you can allow a natural consequence to occur, like for example, the child breaks their phone, they throw their phone, the phone is broken. Then I'm going to allow that phone to stay broken.

I'm not gonna rush out and buy another phone. And, I think that if we interrupt that. And we say, oh dear, poor you. Here's a spare phone you can use that. There's no learning going on. There's no cause and effect [00:09:00] thinking happening. So it's really our job to grow the neurons in their brain, the synapses, to help them to develop that link of, oh, I did this and therefore that happened.

Philippa: Yeah. So it's like that's a logical consequence or an inconvenience, isn't it? Like actually, you're not gonna have your phone now for a little while 'cause we need to save up for a new one or we need to, whatever it is. But you wouldn't, I guess you wouldn't do that as a punishment, as in, now that's.

Serves you right? That's right. That's right. You can be alongside the child, can't you? And say, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry you haven't got your phone. Yeah. And we'll save up for a new one. And I guess again, that's a little bit of the difference between traditional parenting 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Philippa: And the therapeutic side. 

Sarah: Yes.

We always talk about our natural consequences with nurture, and if the nurture is absent, it's not therapeutic parenting. It does tend to turn into that. You did that so therefore. And all that does is push the child into shame and fracture your [00:10:00] relationship. The, child already feels like they're bad.

We don't need to reinforce that and tell them that they are, but by and punishment there's absolutely no point. 'cause punishment is all about trying to make us feel better, and it just damages our relationship. So the consequence has always got to be linked. Back to what has actually happened.

And if you can't think of anything in the moment, if something's just happened and you are furious and you're like, because we do get obviously angry. The best thing to do is say this isn't great. I'm gonna have a think about what we're gonna do. I'll tell you later what I've decided because you're much more likely to say something appropriate and to do something appropriate when you are not.

Furious and angry and upset. Go for a little walk have, a little bit of time out yourself, and then it comes to you and you can have that little pause and then you can say okay, I've thought about what [00:11:00] happened this morning and because you were punching your sister in the back of the car, I'm not actually taking you out in the car.

For the next couple of days that we are gonna walk everywhere because I don't feel like you're very safe in the car. And I know that's difficult for you, but we'll have a lovely chat while we're walking about, that's say bring the nurture back in. But we've removed, there's a consequence.

They're linked to the car. There's no point. Standard parenting often doesn't link consequences. I'll say, you were rude to me. You've lost your pocket money. Now, a securely attached child might well be able to make that link. Personally, I don't think, I still don't think it's a great method to be honest, but our children from trauma living in the moment on the crashing plane, they do not make that link.

They just think by the time it gets to Friday, you don't give 'em their pocket money. You are horrible. You hate them. So there, there's no learning going on at all? No, 

Philippa: and it's I guess that is what I talk about with the parents I work with, is that's about maximum impact that we think it's gonna have, [00:12:00] don't we?

So you're not teenagers, we use their phone for everything, but actually the behavior's not linked to the phone. We think it's having the maximum impact because they're upset and that's the thing they love the most. And yeah they, probably are upset, but they're cross with us, aren't they?

They're not, like you say, they're not making that link, are they about, actually, no. This is what happened. Yeah. I didn't do a chore or whatever it was. And now, so now I've lost my phone for, whatever time. Yeah. They don't link 

Sarah: that. 

Philippa: It just doesn't, but it, we feel that we are having the maximum impact on them and I, suppose that therapeutic parenting is different.

So the other thing that I was gonna just ask about is about. The carers and parents doing therapeutic parenting. 

Sarah: Yeah, 

Philippa: because it is exhausting, isn't it? And 

Sarah: yeah, 

Philippa: doing it all the time. I don't know. It is probably not possible. You, can try to do it a hundred percent of the time. Yeah. But sometimes we are in our own crashing [00:13:00] plane, aren't we?

Sarah: I think it, it changes actually over the years because of course when you start doing therapeutic parenting, you are consciously thinking about I need to look behind the curtain. Think where this behavior comes. You spend a lot of time thinking about it and doing it, but actually as you do it more and you start realizing the benefits, 'cause you see the changes in behavior and you see the improvements.

It becomes easier and it becomes second nature. So for example, with my grandchildren, I don't have another way of parenting now. Years ago I was super nanny, I was a nursery nurse and that's what I did. Standard parenting. And that feels so alien to me now I don't think I could do it, but of course, sometimes when you get frustrated, that's when you slip back.

Into standard pony, oh, for goodness sake, why did you do that? That kind of thing. That's just normal human exasperation. But the important thing there is afterwards we think, oh, I can't believe I [00:14:00] did that. I should have done it a different way. And, I think that. I always say that therapeutic parenting is the hardest, most rewarding thing you'll ever do.

And and, but I do think it's something that gets easier. Our children don't necessarily get easier. The trauma doesn't necessarily get easier to manage, but therapeutic parenting methods do get easier. They become second nature. 

Philippa: And I think that, like you talked about, that, that rupture, that does happen sometimes.

I've got a 20-year-old, but when he was a teenager there was quite a few difficult years and that frustration of the teenager. So I do all the stuff and then I just have to say what was in my head. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Philippa: And I'd say it and I would feel better, but by the time I'd got to the bottom of the stairs, that therapeutic voice would be back in my head of oh my gosh, why did I do that?

Yeah, but you can go back, can't you? You can go back and say, yeah. Yeah, I'm really sorry. Yeah, that was me. That was [00:15:00] my crossness. That was about me. It wasn't about you. And so again, even when we do those moments, the therapeutic parenting element would be actually, we go and own that, and we make the repair and use the empathy.

Sarah: Yeah, that's right. We can always go back and what I always found really interesting was that often if I did go back and do a repair, often my children would be like, we didn't notice what you talking about. It's always a kind of a bigger deal in our head than it is for our children, especially when you're looking after children from trauma because you know a bad day for them.

In their birth family, wherever they came from was absolutely horrendous. Here I'm apologizing to them for a bad day. 'cause I was snappy at them yesterday and they, with them it's, it was often just were you, oh so I think we've also gotta be a bit kind to ourselves as well, and realize often it's not making as much of a big deal as we think it is.

Philippa: Yeah. And so you, wrote the ERs at [00:16:00] Therapeutic Parenting, and then you've written other books alongside that, haven't you? Yeah. And have you, you've written books for children? 

Sarah: Yeah. In fact, I wrote the children's book first. 

Philippa: Oh, 

Sarah: okay. And then I was asked to do something, for parents. That came about because I do a lot of training and talks with foster parents, and we tend to call in our agencies, we call 'em therapeutic foster parents because of the level of training and the way we all work. And I would go in and talk to people about what I call naming the need, which is when you use, a story with the child to say I think that you are actually hiding under the bed because when you were little, this happened and dah. And the foster parents would say to me the thing is sometimes we don't know what happened and it feels a bit risky if the child's just come into us.

So I said I know what I'll do then I'll write a children story. A true children story, things that happened with my own children, and then you can read that [00:17:00] story to the child. So you as the parent figure, are reading the words that I said to my son. So that was what, when we did William Wobbly, the Very Bad Day, and that was an instant bestseller.

That was, that went down really well. So then I started writing calling on things that had happened with the children and so we've got Charlie chatty for stealing and lying and exaggerating and things like that. And Sophie Spy, he's always fine and doesn't need any help. And yeah, I think people find that really useful.

And a lot of people say to me I read it to my child and they said, oh that's like me. That's me. And I'm really glad that children see that. And when I do author days, I love those little kids come up to me and they go, are you really, William Wobbly is mom. And sometimes I take my adult children along and they'll say were you Katie?

Careful. And they love it. 'cause they see they're real people, yeah. They did those things. Yeah. 

Philippa: And it, those just [00:18:00] for people who are maybe haven't again, experienced them they're, quite short, very picture led books, aren't they? I, yeah. You use them a lot. And so William Wobbly has a very bad day.

He's at school, isn't he? Yeah. And he's got a big feeling in his tummy. And then he mommy comes a lot. He's outside the headmaster's office. And his mommy comes along and he thinks she's gonna be cross. And it's a little bit about the, what I like and, I think it's helpful for parents as well, is to think about how facial expressions 

Sarah: Yeah.

Philippa: And how the, how we communicate non-verbally to our children and Yeah. And 'cause in William Wobbley, when he sees the smile that. When he, his tummy starts to get a little bit better. Yeah. But they're really nice to read to children. They're short, aren't they? Yeah. It keeps their attention span.

And you can just have lovely conversations around, does this ever happen for you? And even, I think even if [00:19:00] they're not like William Wobbly, it can start a conversation of round, no, I'm not like that, but I'm like this. Yes. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Philippa: So you can, it starts, so some children are like this. What's it like for you when you get told off it can, help with those different conversations, can't they?

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And, that's why we cover lots of different scenarios and lots of different feelings within it all, the main behaviors really are, covered. And, we've also got, I did one called, katie Kalin, the very weird child, and that's written for a child who's. Already, pr probably the birth child of a parent and then a foster child is moving in alongside and it explains to the child about what's going on for that child.

But you can read it to both children. So that's that's how, 

Philippa: no, that's, I haven't seen that one. I'm gonna have a look at it. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Philippa: Yeah, that's really 

Sarah: great. Oh, sorry, that's, sorry. That one's [00:20:00] called Callum kindly. Callum. Kindly the very weird child. And the very weird child is Katie. Careful in it.

That's why. 

Philippa: Oh, okay. I'm gonna have a look. I've wrote that down. I, that's why I haven't got, I've got the Charlie chatty and all those ones, but not that one. So yeah, so that's great. So you, did these books, then you did the A to Z and there's a professionals I think yeah. I spoke to Sarah Dylan a few weeks ago and she talked about the professionals guide to this.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Philippa: And that's supporting people like me, social workers, play, therapist, whoever to think, to use this. Similar strategies within their practice and support parents. Is that right? 

Sarah: Yeah. What I did because of working in fostering an adoption for quite a long time now, I was very aware about the level of paperwork there is for social workers.

And sometimes I think [00:21:00] one of the hardest things, we have a lot of people, a lot of foster parents who transfer into to our fostering agencies at True and Safer because they. Are so fed up with getting into a crisis, and then the social worker who turns up doesn't get it, and they're just talking about things that that reward charts or whatever.

And I thought it's all very well having people transfer in and working with them, but actually it would be better if everybody got this and everyone understood it. So I thought what I'll do is I've literally written, we've rewritten the assessment process for foster parents. We've got the therapeutic fostering assessment now.

And when we did the A to Z for professionals. We've got tools in there which are absolutely for the social worker to work through. So one of the worst things that can happen to a social worker is when they go into an adopt foster parent care, and they ask, they I'm at the end of my tether. I don't know what to do.

The child's doing this. And then the, [00:22:00] parent looks at you like you have the answer. And unfortunately, social workers are not trained at college. They're not trauma informed. Unless they've done our qualification afterwards, they're just not trauma informed. So I thought, how can we get this so they can get the A to Z professional companion?

And then there it is. And it's if you've got the situation, this is the step-by-step process you go through use empathic listening. There's lots of tick boxes, and literally they can then use the A to Z to solve the problem, become more skilled themselves in 'cause otherwise what happens is the social worker withdraws.

They withdraw and they blame because they're out. They dunno what to do. And I've seen that happen countless times. So the poor family have waited all this time because they're pretty desperate. They speak to social workers and say, we are desperate what to do, that if the social worker doesn't know what to do, they will also withdraw and say they're not coping.

There might be a safeguarding issue. You know that. And that's [00:23:00] what we see and that's usually when people contact us, which is avoidable. 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah, and it's helping social workers, I guess even often family support workers are put in, aren't they? To support a family to start placement, breakdowns, things like that.

Then I suppose that then helps everybody think about what the foster care, the adoptive parent, whatever it is, needs and the child, because the need is in both, I'm guessing. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yes. My philosophy has always been that if you properly take care of the therapeutic parents, the child will actually be fine because it isn't you, the therapists aren't there in the middle of the night when the child broken smear poo on the wall.

The parent is. So [00:24:00] we have to upskill the parents. We have to e enable them and empower them to be really skilled therapeutic parents, and by making sure they're feeling mentally okay. So that's been my philosophy and that's what we do. So we have empathic listeners, child support workers, as well as a trauma informed social worker because that means that the.

Foster parent can pick up the phone and they know that the person answer isn't gonna go into blame, isn't gonna start saying I dunno what you've been doing, and I dunno about this. They're gonna have someone who says, this sounds really tough, this sounds really difficult. I think you've done everything right.

I'll, come around and see you in the morning, or whatever that needs to be. And that's the bit that's missing really. I, think in social work is there's a need to fix, a need to logically apply strategies. And actually 99 times out of a hundred, our parents need us to listen to them really listen to them, empathize with them, and help [00:25:00] them to solve the problem rather than judge and blame them.

Philippa: Yeah, and I guess that's about, like you say, skilling the foster care as well and giving them the information about the impact that trauma and early life adversity has on children, rather than thinking, oh, you are just the foster carer. Yeah. Because that can often happen isn't it that they, yeah.

Some of my friends are really amazing foster carers, and they'll often say they've got a professionals meeting and they haven't invited me. Yeah, and they are the professional really? 

Sarah: Yeah. They're the main person and we won't allow those. We won't allow that to happen. Unless it was a safeguarding meeting about the foster parent.

Yeah. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Sarah: We, if they say we've got a professionals meeting, we just invite the, obviously we invite the foster parent along because when they are assessed with us with the therapeutic fostering assessment and, other people use that now as well, other local authorities and stuff, they also [00:26:00] become qualified.

So part of the assessment process is they become qualified. Professional, therapeutic foster parents. It's all all done online. People love it. So when people say to us, oh, you're not gonna be professional. I say what qualifications do you have in therapeutic parenting? Because our foster parents.

Do, and they are the person who knows the child the most. They're the ones that have got the firsthand experience. How dare you try and make a decision about this child without the person who knows them best there. So we won't tolerate that at all. We just wouldn't go to the meeting. 

Philippa: Yeah.

Yeah, because I guess it's, it is that valuing of the. The foster carer's role and expertise, but it's also then helping them to have that knowledge, isn't it? Because a, again, it's really important that they do have the training. So you talked about a qualification and you said about a social worker having the qualification as well.

Yeah. What's that? Just talk. Just talk. [00:27:00] That's about that, 

Sarah: yeah, that's quite important. So at the center of Excellence in child trauma. Which we set, it's a not-for-profit organization that does all our training and it has a support network there. It's called the Tips Hub, Trauma-Informed Parents Hub.

You can get that at COE ct.co uk. So in there we've also got lots of qualifications and they're all independently accredited. So we are always looking at filling the gap. So what isn't there? So the one for social workers is also for therapists, and that's a level four qualification in trauma informed practice.

And that fills the gap between what people have done at university and what they need to meet the children's needs. Understand the behaviors. Yeah. And support the parents. For the parents, we have a level one for kinship carers. We have a. A level two in professional therapeutic foster care. We've got ones for schools.

'cause obviously we've written schools, books. We work with a team of [00:28:00] educators. So anybody, and we are just about to release in September, a qualification for residential staff working in children's homes. So all of them, that's all about getting trauma informed. They're nearly all done online. We do have the odd face-to-face day where we meet up and do some group work, but mostly people go through it at their own pace and and get qualified.

So a lot of our foster parents have also done a level three in diploma and therapeutic parenting as well. But that's a portable qualification. They can take it anywhere it is, not. Just like C-O-E-C-T led. Yeah. It's, accredited by cash yeah. 

Philippa: Okay. 

And when you talk about trauma informed what does that mean for, you guys really?

Because trauma informed can have a, lots of people say we're trauma informed. 

Sarah: And they're often not 

Philippa: I wasn't quite gonna say. Yeah, that, that's true. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Philippa: I was trying to think of a word around that, sir. [00:29:00] Yeah. 

Sarah: What they mean is they've done a two hour course. 

Philippa: Yes. 

Sarah: And now they're trauma informed.

But any therapeutic parent will know that you're three months in with a child and you're starting to go, oh, hang on, if I do it this way. You tend, you, you tend to be trauma practicing. Trauma aware, practicing. Once you have lived with children from trauma, but if you are a social worker and you've got lots of experience and you've seen this a lot, you you need to become trauma informed and trauma practicing.

So you need to become a trauma informed practitioner as a world of difference between say, roughly knowing that children from trauma are different. And actually understanding how long that takes, what that trauma means, how it responds to behaviors, how that impact that has on parents and the strategies that we need to use.

It's, not a two hour course. And it always makes me laugh when people say to me, can you come and do [00:30:00] a keynote or a talk? And I'm like, yeah, I can. Yeah. And they say what we want to know is we wanna know what therapeutic parenting is, what behaviors we see, what strategies we use, how, and I said, I can do that in five days. If they're there for five days, we can probably make a good start on that. If you ask me for an hour keynote, it is not possible and you've got to do and I think the best thing to do is, why our children behave the way they do. You can do that in an hour.

You know the why, because then that makes people curious. But yeah, I think that there's a lot of unrealistic expectations out there, unfortunately. 

Philippa: And trauma informed really means it permeates everything, isn't it? It's not just. Yeah. Like we are aware that children who've been neglected might have issues with food.

It's more of it's, the, okay, so what, then what does that mean? How does that work? How do we change our practice? 

Sarah: Yes. 

Philippa: To reflect that, how do [00:31:00] we support the people that we work with to change that? It's about, it permeates everything, not just. And I don't mean to diminish knowledge, any knowledge is good, but it's a very different thing, isn't it?

Trauma informed to being trauma aware. 

Sarah: Yeah. And I can give you an example of that. So when we started Safer fostering in Wales. The first thing I did with Alison Douglas, who helps, she's also an adopter. We sat and wrote the policies and procedures because the policies and procedures in a trauma informed organization look very different to an organization who say they are trauma informed, but actually do all the standard stuff.

So for example. With our foster parents, if there's an allegation, one of the first things we do is we make sure that the child social worker is aware about how trauma impacts on memory and how the child can confuse what's happened with what's happening. We make sure [00:32:00] that's within our policies and procedures and we have to make sure that.

People around us are aware about that. So that's just a very small example. But we have to also make sure the therapeutic fostering assessment means that everyone does that. And it means that when the children come in. The people who are looking after their child understand before the child walks through the door, what trauma looks like and what they might be met with.

It also means you have very high levels of stability because children don't move. People feel much more empowered. They know what they're doing, but you've gotta start with your policies and your procedures because if you don't have trauma informed policies and procedures, the second that something goes wrong.

People run around saying, oh we've gotta get the, child out. And actually we say, oh, what's happened here? How can we put this it's very different way of working. 

Philippa: Yeah. And again, that holds the child at the center of what you are doing, doesn't it? And the foster carer in that. 

Sarah: Yeah.

Philippa: [00:33:00] Actually the, this relationship is the thing that's gonna be the most. Healing for the child that it's, if we start to disrupt and move and change that actually we are damaging the healing that we want to happen for, the child. And even if it's only a short break, you know that they go into. I don't know.

Fat respite they call call it, but people don't. Sure. 

Sarah: Breaks, I call 

Philippa: it. Yeah. That's it. People call them different things, don't they? But you might think, oh, I'll just move them out for the weekend. But actually when this, when there's been something so big. Often the child needs their safe base, don't they?

Yeah, that's right. To help them. And if we move them away from that, obviously if there is a safeguarding issue Yeah. Then of course they should be re yeah. That they should be safe. But, like you say children disclosing things. We have to [00:34:00] be really clear about what that is. Yeah.

And the relationship they often need is with their safe person or their big person, isn't it? And if that's right, we take that away. Yeah. Actually we're doing damage, not healing. 

Sarah: Yeah. Because you've gotta think about what message we're giving to the child it, is the same with when we are working with schools.

We know that some schools are really great and skilled, and we work with some of those people and some of them aren't. And if you, get the messaging wrong with schools, you can do a huge amount of damage. So, what we do is we, when the schools get it wrong, and when they're saying things like he is been very naughty and he deliberately did this.

So we're excluding him when they start doing that kind of standard schooling nonsense, which doesn't work with children from trauma, rather than being angry and having lots of meetings, we send in free trainers. We put in trainers in the school and say, oh yeah, we still, you need to know about trauma.

You need know this is why the child thinks that way. You've got other children in school, think this way and this is what you can do about it. And that's a much better [00:35:00] way of keeping the child at the school by changing the school's approach, by looking at what is it the school's doing that's making the child feel unsafe?

Let's explain that to the school and help 'em to change. 

So some schools listen, some schools don't. And sometimes you do have to move the child because the school isn't. Isn't trauma informed and doesn't want to be. Often you can, get that's what I did with my children.

I used to go in and train the school. Because it was hopeless. It was hopeless at first. 

Philippa: And so can we just talk a little bit about schools? So the school, again, when we think about traditional parenting and therapeutic parenting, schools are very behavioral, aren't they? They have the things like golden time and the, red, green, yellow stuff, the home book that tells you all the things that they did wrong.

Yeah. Yeah. All that for children can be quite well for any child. I [00:36:00] think Quite shaming. Yeah. Yeah. For children with, trauma it's devastating really, I would say. 

Sarah: Yes. Yeah. There's no escape. And then we've seen a huge rise, haven't we, in children being homeschooled. Wonder why.

I, would have done that with my children had I not had five. I would, because I did need, for me, school was a break. That's really all I was. I didn't expect my children to learn very much, to be honest, that my children learn later on. I had realistic expectations. But a lot of the schools just don't get it.

And that's why when I met the people at the Winsome Trust in Norfolk, they had changed their schools from standard schools into trauma-informed schools. And that's what they practice. And you saw this huge rise in stability in the schools. So it was that team that helped us to write the a Z of Trauma informed teaching.

So it's like the a z, but it's four schools, it's four teachers, [00:37:00] and that's had a big impact because I think schools are starting to understand, it isn't about costing loads of money, it's actually just about a change in mindset. And taking the reward charts down and being with the child in the moment.

So, yeah, so that's been, really helpful. And we have seen more trauma schools popping up now. And can do when you were with with trauma schools. You, the fizzy kids do, can they manage those? 'cause often it's the fizzy kid the quiet kids like Katie, careful, they just sit at the back of the class and they just slide under the radar.

Philippa: Don't until there's a point where people think, oh my gosh, they haven't been learning, they haven't been doing it. And then, all of a sudden there's all this fluster and pressure put on. Or you get fizzy kids who just need to move around can't sit still. Yeah. And those are the children, and that often schools find more difficult and start to do [00:38:00] part-time timetables with start to move them outta the classroom.

All those sorts of things. Have you found with the work you've done that helping, I suppose the Izzy kids stay in the class and the the careful quiet children be noticed? 

Sarah: It isn't about helping the fizzy children stay in the classroom. It's about giving them an escape route. If their legs need to run out the classroom because they've got high cortisol levels, their legs need to run out the classroom and no, no amount of sitting down and talking to the child is going to stop that because the cortisol is still high.

Yeah. So for example, when my son used to run out the classroom and he was young school, first of all tackled that by chasing him, which surprisingly made him run further. And then they would give him detentions and things like this, and I would just have a little laugh about it.

And I speak to my son and I I, made sure that our relationship was intact and I said, oh school, don't get it. And in the end I, I sold that by going up to see the [00:39:00] school, because of course they were very exasperated by my naughty child. He kept running outta the classroom. He was 15 at the time.

And I went to see them and I said has, detention worked? No. Has. Has given him this work? No. Has this, yeah. Has standing blocking the door worked. Yeah. Good luck with that. No has chasing him work? No. And I said, I said, I'll tell you what hasn't worked. I said, because when his corsol levels are high, like any other child from trauma their legs are going to run outta classroom.

And his brain has no way of stopping that happening. His, it's not him doing it. His legs are going. And that's how I used to talk about to my son. So I said, so you need to let him go. You need to let him go and we need to agree a place he can run to and he's gonna stay there and no one's going to chase him.

So we would run to this tree in the field and the teacher would look out the window and wave at him. And then when he felt better, he'd come back. And and he used to have an exit card so he could go. And [00:40:00] surprisingly, of course, that completely, dramatically reduced the behavior. It didn't cost any money.

No. And it made that this teacher, the class wasn't disrupted because they could carry on. Teaching. Yeah. So what often it's just little mindset changes like that, that need to happen really to me and to you, that's probably like completely obvious, but the, a set of trauma informed teaching explains all that and explains why we have to do it differently.

Philippa: Yeah. And so what you said that what you've seen in the schools where that where you've worked alongside that the stability of Yeah. Of children and 

Sarah: Yes. 

Philippa: Those exclusions and and part-time timetables have reduced 

Sarah: Yes. And. The most important thing, the children are happy. 

Philippa: Yeah 

Sarah: That's the really, oh, I met an doctor the other day who's, who was transferred, who was coming to work for us as a foster parent, and she's got a 14-year-old child, and she said, and I said almost, with trepidation.[00:41:00] 

Oh, we know how's school. 'cause usually it's like you open the floodgates and it's, and she said, oh, he is in a really great school. It's a trauma informed school and they've read all your books and they know, and he's so happy there. And I met him and yeah, he's a very happy child. And you just think that's what makes a difference?

There's a lot of, out in a trauma school, there's a lot of exterior outside. Activities happening to help the truth, cordal stay low. So they're not just expected to sit in a classroom all day. There's lots of opportunity for movement. 

Philippa: And I, 'cause I think often I will talk to parents and carers about, what you are never gonna get the chance to do is be in a relationship with your child at this age again. And that's, and do that healing, do that emotional connection, do that presence, do that being alongside, what they can do is go and learn maths again at 25 or three. Yeah, that's 

Sarah: right. 

Philippa: That's right. You can never do that again.

You can't do the emotional [00:42:00] stuff again. Yeah. You can do it differently, but you can't do the parenting at that age, can you? Yeah. And sometimes. I would say probably more than sometimes it's actually our children's emotional relational health. That should be the priority because like you say, if they feel safe, if they are happy.

Even contented then. That is worth a thou, in my view, in my view, a thousand GCSEs. Because you can always go back and do that again, can't you? You can go and do access to university or whatever. You can't do your childhood again. 

Sarah: Yeah. And that's what I always say to parents, is that, do you know what the GCSEs and the learning it, it comes at a, absolutely the wrong time for our children, like you say, what we've got to do is we've gotta make sure [00:43:00] they can form relationships. Because if my children reach 16 and they've got 17 GCSEs and they're great at math, but they can't form relationships, they're gonna have a really sad and terrible life.

So my job, and that's why I didn't do homework I said to school, I'm not doing homework. You do, you just work schoolwork at school and unless you're gonna come around and get the kids to tidy their bedrooms, I'm not doing, I'm not doing homework. Because I can't change from, mom to teacher.

I can't do that, and my children can't cope with that. I've got more important job to do, more important, even in the nine times table. It's about making sure my children develop trust know what love is. Form a relationship with them and compare themselves. That's the most important thing. And all my children went on to do college and stuff like that later on.

They all had, quite three of them have worked for me at various times. One of them has written books with me. They all went on and, did stuff that they enjoyed. One of doing a psychology [00:44:00] degree at the moment. But absolutely they weren't doing that at 15. They weren't, that wasn't happening and I wasn't disappointed, crucially.

Philippa: No. And that's, I guess that's what we want is happy, healthy relational kids, don't we? Yeah. So just as we're coming to the end, I know just as we started, you were talking about your keynote speaking and that you are going to Australia to do this. Yeah. So just tell us some more about that.

Sarah: So I was in Australia in October, was it October, November last year? Yeah, November last year. And I was doing the, I was keynoting at the National Fostering Conference, which was really interesting because I was in Sydney and people were flying in from all over Australia and and foster parents in Australia don't.

They're not treated as well, I have to say, as they're in the uk the money is very poor. And [00:45:00] yeah. And, everyone was flying in and I thought, wow, this is exciting. 'cause sometimes I'll go and speak in Birmingham. Some Coventry will say it's too far. So, I thought that was quite an interesting mindset.

And what I was struck by was that it was almost like it was the first time people were hearing this stuff. 

Philippa: Wow. 

Sarah: And there was this sort of clamoring afterwards and said, we need more of this. We need more. And so yes, I've agreed to go back and do a tour. Of four cities in October this year. But I've said I would do it only with my friend and colleague, Sarah Dill, who you've spoken to.

Yeah, because the need is so great. It, needs two of us just to talk to people afterwards, so yeah so, we're gonna be very busy going around and done some keynote digital training, talking about therapeutic parenting, but most importantly, strategies and solutions for people. 

Philippa: Okay.

And you do that in the UK as well? You do, 

Sarah: yes. Yeah. Yeah. We'll, Doncaster next week. I'm off, I often go up [00:46:00] Hal we actually go everywhere. Reham. We go everywhere. We go all over the country. We work internationally as well in Malta, Estonia, Iceland America we've been Singapore.

We we, go all over the place. Trauma speaks the same language wherever you are in the world. And is 

Philippa: it. Is it for particular agencies or is it conferences that people can come along and buy tickets for? Or is it a mixture of both? 

Sarah: It's a mixture of both. When we do our own conferences, our national conferences, we've just done one on trauma and tech.

And that's available online now. But that was an in-person face-to-face, one in Cardiff. So tho those are like available to everybody. Usually we'll get booked by a client, by a local author or something like that, but we do run ones. And they're all on our website. The events that are coming up, we tend to run a very popular workshop that Sarah Dillon and I do together, which is called What to Do When Nothing Works.

We have no [00:47:00] preparation for that. People turn up and say, this is the behavior I've got, this is, and we solve it, break it down and solve that on the day. So that has to be in person really that one, because there's a lot, there's a lot going on. But yeah we that's my best thing. Best thing I enjoy most is, meeting other foster parents, doctors, kinship, carers.

We have support groups, we have coffee meetings all of that. Yeah. 

Philippa: Oh, that's great. And then just one very last question is you are involved with safer screens. 

Sarah: Yes, health professionals for safer screens. So we've done quite a lot of work with them. We've been giving them the advice around the effect of over use of screens on vulnerable children.

And that's what we did the conference and in card, as I say, that is available online. Really everyone talks about the impact of social media, which is absolutely right. It's very negative. People haven't been aware, haven't been talking about the very negative impacts. [00:48:00] On our children from trauma, they are much more vulnerable.

And because they need dopamine and the dopamine hits, they get more addicted to their phone more quickly. And that's also why we're seeing this explosion in this child has autism. This child has a DHD, they don't, they need to get their phones put down. Lots of research. On health professionals with safer screens and very interesting, something like 80 odd percent of children said, we wish someone would take our phones away, but we can't say that.

So I found all that really interesting. Yeah, 

Philippa: and but parents can find it very difficult. Can't, that is often the conversation that I have, I suppose with most parents now. It used to be. I think sleep and toileting is quite high. Yeah. But screens is starting to join that and when I'm asking them to end, 

Sarah: yeah.

Philippa: That's when the moment of that's right. Of conflict comes. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Philippa: [00:49:00] So, the safer screens thinks about that, does it for 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And, in our conference we tackled that and the person that spoke about that was Gareth Thomas, who is a parent SGI and Foster parent of three teens and, we gave all the tech solutions about how you can overcome that.

We talked about that dysregulation and the moment of loss of the screen and that kind of thing. It's a it's, a difficulty. We don't get into, if I, if my children were young now. And I knew what I know now about the way screens are damaging our children's brains. I would be taking their phones away and be putting up with the fallout of that.

I'm sorry I, literally now look at my grandchildren looking at their phones and. And think about the damage that's going on in their brains phones. Were not designed for developing brain smartphones. I'm talking about Yeah, no problem with the not smartphones. You keep in contact with those.

But yeah it's really damaging and, I think in, the next generation, they'll be looking back at this time and saying, what the hell were we [00:50:00] thinking? Yeah. Why did we allow this to happen? 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Sarah: So that you can see lots, you can, people can watch our conference online if they want to, or I've got all, we've got all the.

Research that's behind that and crucially strategies. 'cause like you say, parents need strategies for if you're gonna 

Philippa: Absolutely. 

Sarah: Screen time, that's really important. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Philippa: And it is that, I think now we are starting to see that research come out, aren't we? And it, yeah, it feels like there's a generation where we are shutting the stable door.

Too late. Yeah. Hopefully the ones that are about to come. Yeah we've learned some. Yeah. I think there's still more to go, but there is this whole, along with COVID, and we won't get into COVID, but they've got screens and COVID. 

Sarah: That's 

Philippa: right. I think this is a really. Tough time, not just for kids with trauma, but for a whole generation of children.

And then when you have trauma on top of that, 

Sarah: yes. 

Philippa: They, there's a lot of challenges going on, isn't it? Yeah. So foster parents and adopters [00:51:00] definitely, need and kinship carers as well need that, need support, don't they? 

Sarah: They 

Philippa: do. And what you are providing is a really great part of that.

Sarah: Yes. And actually a positive thing to finish on is that because we've become very aware of this and we've had a lot of contact from people, might be very pleased to know I've been, people been on at me for years. They wanted me to write a follow up to the A to Z for older children. So we are literally 50% through writing that now.

Fantastic. We'll finish it in June, the ages end of therapeutic parenting, teens and tweens. And within that we've got our tech specialists, all therapeutic parents talking about screens, social media, gaming. Suicide attempts, self-harm. All the teen stuff that we really struggle with, so that will probably be coming.

That is coming out next year, oh, that will be, yeah, definitely. It'll be amazing. 'cause the therapeutic preparing, I think you can use it all the way through, but there isn't those very specific [00:52:00] things. Yeah. And life has moved on since you've, like you say, that's with screens in that since you wrote it the first time.

Yeah, 

Philippa: that's 

Sarah: why we had to do it. That's why we felt we had to do it. Yeah. 

Philippa: Yeah. Absolutely. That'll be fantastic. So thank you so much for your time, Sarah. I will put some links at the bottom of the description for this so people can go and find the center of excellence. I'll put links to a few of your books so they can start to have a look at that.

I've got, thank you so much for your time. It's been amazing. 

Sarah: No, thank you. Thank you. 

Philippa: Alright.