EP69 Understanding Attachment: Tools for Families and Therapists; A Conversation with Viv Norris

Julie welcomes Viv Norris, founder and CEO of the Family Place on the Welsh borders, supporting adoptive and other families across Wales and parts of England, and co-founder of Theraplay UK. Viv traces her path from intense residential therapeutic work with adolescents, through music therapy training and clinical psychology, into 20 years in the NHS and later fostering and adoption services. She explains why she built an independent, team-based service centred on carers, group supervision and video review, and approaches like DDP and Theraplay to support regulation, attachment and relationship, often as “therapy before therapy” for highly dysregulated children and families in crisis. Viv also outlines her “By Your Side” transition model, using predictable play rituals, shared language and adult support to help children navigate placement moves and multiple losses.

Website: https://thefamilyplace.co.uk/

By Your Side Model: https://thefamilyplace.co.uk/by-your-side/

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Transcript

Navigating Adoption and Transition.

[00:00:00] 

Julie: welcome to this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me, Julie. And this week my special guest is somebody that I'm very fond of and have spent many years having these discussions with. And that's Viv Norris. Viv of Warm. Welcome to the podcast. 

Viv: Thank you. 

Julie: Viv, you are the founder and I love this title, the CEO of the Family Place.

And my understanding the family place is on the Welsh borders. Yeah. But you have a service. It's an adoption support service. Particularly for Wales, but also you see families across the Midlands and other parts of England. But you are also a co-founder with Fiona Peacock of Thera Play uk. There wasn't a Thera Play organization in the UK and I think around 2018.[00:01:00] 

2019, maybe around that time, thera Play UK got going. And you have been one of the co-directors of that until very recently. So Viv comes with a huge amount of expertise about child, particularly children who've experienced trauma and neglect, and particularly with adopted children, that's been your, particular expertise in recent years.

But can you take us back to the beginning? How did you end up setting up the family place in Hay on y? Where, did you start? Tell us the story, Viv. 

Viv: Oh gosh. I started in the before the NHSI started in residential services. I. I had no idea what I wanted to do. In terms of, a career.

I accidentally took a psychology degree. At the time at the [00:02:00] time there was no a level psychology and I didn't really know what psychology was, but I really enjoyed, through the, it was actually through the Duke of Edinburgh scheme that I started looking after people with at that time learning difficulties.

So there was a, whole there was a whole movement of volunteering so that in the summer, young people would volunteer. And I started to do all of that work and it made me. I very interested in how could I find a career where I could help and be involved in supporting people. And, a family friend said, you should do a psychology degree.

So I really didn't know much about it, did my psychology degree, and then worked for the next, oh I traveled for a while and then I worked in residential services so I worked at pepper Harrow Therapeutic Community and then moved on to another one when that one closed. So that was my initial experience, which was incredibly intense.

So [00:03:00] anybody who's worked in these therapeutic residential settings will, understand what that experience is like. And I think it had a very just a profound impact on, the direction I took after that. And 

Julie: was that with children? Were, they the residents in, those communities? 

Viv: Yes. They, were adolescents.

They were age 14 and up. Yeah. 

Julie: Gosh, with no professional qualification as such, but finding your way into that setting and yeah. What was your role? 

Viv: I, I don't know how, other people's careers have developed. Mine feels quite organic and not accidental, but following, my heart into things.

So I didn't I didn't really know what it would be like. In fact, I applied for two different jobs and happened to get this one first. It was [00:04:00] it, was all adolescents and there were people with formal qualifications there. So the leadership it would be group analytic would've been the main qualification that people would've had.

But most of the staff had no formal qualifications. There might have been some teachers amongst the group and a couple of social workers, but we were mainly recruited without formal qualifications. For those three years, the quality of supervision and the the work amongst them the, different adults there was extraordinary.

It was, absolutely fantastic. 

Julie: Huge journey. So you 

Viv _Recording_640x360: were 

Julie: quite young then in your early twenties? 

Viv: Yeah, mid twenties. So I went abroad and I taught in Spain for a year, and I went to Jamaica for a year, worked in a children's home, so I did various other things before and I'd taken a year out.

So I did various other things before that, but that would definitely be the formative beginning of my career [00:05:00] i, have no helping professions in terms of therapy in my family. Yeah. 

And didn't know anybody who was a therapist or a psychologist or anything like that. Yeah. Yeah, I was just following my nose, but I think it was there that I thought actually this is something that is incredibly interesting Uhhuh and also compell.

Yeah. 

Julie: And you said earlier on, you fo you know, it's more than following your nose, it's also following your heart. There was a, 

Viv: yeah. A, 

Julie: a sense of that being a place for you to go. 

Viv: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. I couldn't see, I couldn't see the path and I didn't quite know why. Obviously I've thought about that much more since.

But, I found I've, found a very strong draw to it. Yeah. And, particularly doing it in an intensive way, I think it's really it's really influenced my direction o over these, the next sort of [00:06:00] 30 years, because working as a, in a residential setting, you just see the impact that you're having on young people's lives moment to moment, day and night.

And so then moving later on into a therapy kind of qualification, it's been a big frustration to me that you can see people maximum once a week once a fortnight. So it, that's never really, that's never really made that much sense to me, which I think is why why I've always worked incredibly hard to have parents and carers centrally involved because they just have, and schools, they just have so many more opportunities to influence the child.

Julie: Yes. And also, and maybe this is something we'll talk about later, is as part of your work at the Family Place, having residential camps Yeah. Doing those intensive weeks. Yeah. That, that I've been involved in once or twice. The play with chickens is what I remember of that experience. But that makes, that, that makes more [00:07:00] sense to me now that, where that impetus might have come from for you.

Viv: To 

Julie: actually have everybody in the one place for effectively a residential, a mini residential. 

Viv: Yeah. And, the impacts that can have can really last a very long time. 

So I think when I look at the work I do now, it's all family based and it's very much, we try and do as much wraparound as we can, as much support to parents and carers as much training if they can come on a residential camp too, that's fantastic.

So really looking at all of the adults around the child as their main. That their main resource in particular the, person who they're most attached to, obviously Yeah. Rather than, me being their main resource Yeah. Rather than the therapist. That, the main resource is their carer.

Julie: Yes. So then from the residential school or No, the residential community. Therapeutic community. Sorry. [00:08:00] What happened next? Where did you go? 

Viv: I was planning I wasn't really planning anything, but I probably would've ended up going in a group analytic route. But pepper harrow sadly closed very abruptly and.

So I had to decide what to do next. And I'm a cellist, and when I was 18, I was trying to decide whether to do music or whether to do something else. Okay. So in a way, my choice was between psychology or going to music college. And I decided on the psychology. But when Pepper Harrow closed I decided to use my redundancy to to go and do a music therapy qualification.

So I went to the Guild Hall school of Music and Drama in London and did a, music therapy qualification. But really my underlying motivation was to get good cello lessons. I was like, I really wanted to have an excellent teacher and thought this would be the [00:09:00] way to do it. 

Julie: And did, you get cello lessons As I 

Viv: had a fantastic teacher.

Julie: Oh, wonder. Wonderful. 

Viv: Yes, he was called Professor Popov. He absolutely fantastic, but I was ne at that point, I was never gonna be a professional musician it was a sneaky way to get the best teachers. 

Julie: Yeah. So having your needs met as part of your therapeutic career, we could say. 

Viv: Yeah. 

Julie: Yeah.

And do you still play the cello? 

Viv: Yeah, I do. Not as much as I did, and I absolutely love the music therapy training. But at each stage, I haven't really known what the next thing was. E even when I, a lot of people seem to if they want to train as something like clinical psychology, for instance, they do all these assistant psychologist jobs, so by the time they apply for the training, they know what the role is.

And that just hasn't happened to me at all. At each stage, I feel like I've gone into the next thing really. In quite an [00:10:00] ignorant sort of way, but I've just carried on, 

Julie: yeah. And it's worked out. 

Viv: It's fine. Yeah. Encouraging people that don't have a straight path. 

Julie: Yeah. Or that sense of going into something without.

An expectation or a big understanding of what it is, does that effectively leave you as the student or the new person more open to what's coming? Yeah, I think it definitely, you've gone into it with lots of reading and lots of talking to friends and family who've done it. I dunno that one's better or worse than the other.

But you've, 

Viv: I I've I, and maybe this is more my temperament than than anything, but I've, I found each stage just incredibly interesting. And I the music therapy was a really brilliant grounding, I think for being creative, feeling confident, improvising, and just making things up.

There's something about [00:11:00] an improvisational kind of training that has come full circle now. I think if I think about the trainings now that I've become more experienced in. The whole idea of being with someone, seeing what's gonna happen and picking up on the minutiae 

Julie: Yeah. Is 

Viv: definitely is definitely something that I still do.

Julie: Yeah. So that in my, with my play therapy hat on, I'm thinking of the I, would say a lot of my play in the room with the child is, in, is improvised. We are creating it in relationship as we go along. We are attuning to one another. I don't come in with a, story. The child rarely comes in with a story to tell, but it evolves with each of us playing our part.

And I suppose that's very similar to how music therapists, I guess are working. 

We tune in to what the needs [00:12:00] are of the other, but also we are in relationship all the time. And it's that to and fro that can happen. 

In a musical dialogue, but also in a play dialogue. 

You do this 

Viv: well.

That, that kind of that central reciprocity in a way would be a theme that, that runs through runs through the work that I've, done over this last years. 

Julie: So did you go on then to work as a music therapist? 

Viv: No, I did. I did throughout the summer that I qualified, but I was in a because of the, closure of Pepper harrow, I was in a.

A conundrum really about what to do at what time and the, in terms of the timings for clinical psychology training the, way it came about is that I actually applied for the clinical psychology training before I'd really established myself as a music therapist. And [00:13:00] I did that for all sorts of sensible reasons, really thinking it'd be good to get a doctorate.

I've got a psychology degree now that I'm not moving in this group analytic direction it felt to me like the, just the sensible the, sensible option. And I always thought I could integrate the music into my work and I have managed, that Yeah. So I went on to do clinical psychology training at Solomon's in, the southeast.

Julie: Where is that? Say again? I did, 

Viv: it's near Tunbridge Wells. It's called Solomon's. It's a particular clinical psychology training scheme. It's linked to university of Canterbury, but it's actually based in Tunbridge wells. 

Julie: Ah, okay. So yeah, that's, so you, did the music therapy training and then straight into the clinical psychology?

Viv: Yeah, and that was, I didn't, that was difficult. 

Julie: Yeah, 

Viv: that was difficult 

Julie: because was it such a, was it a very [00:14:00] different training? One is a creative arts person centered 

Viv: Yeah. Very, different training. I think the bit that was, that, the bit that was more difficult probably than switching trainings was coming from an intense residential work environment where there was a really high level of group dynamics and exploration of group dynamics and all of, the things that come with a therapeutic community.

And then both trainings felt j just felt more distance in a way from that intense experience. Although they would, so the bigger challenge I found was going from that residential situation into a formal therapy training, I think, than switching between the two. 

Julie: That's interesting. It's making me think about my own path and, [00:15:00] yeah, the choices we make or are they choices or do we just, we fall into things perhaps sometimes and it's looking back as we are doing now that we can maybe make something of that. 

Viv: But I think maybe it just takes time in your career to find the models that work for you.

So what was really, I really appreciated about the clinical psychology training was the way in which you were trained in lots of different models. Yeah. On the one hand, it's frustrating because it's not deep enough, because you're moving from maybe one idea to another, but it's very it feels quite grounding so that now I, have a good basic knowledge of most kind of approaches in enough to feel that I can make an informed.

Thoughtful decision about things. So I I really appreciate that, that sort of background. That training gave me. 

Julie: So that was [00:16:00] over several years. I guess 

Viv: That's three, that's, that was three years. And that was including placements? Yeah. 

Julie: Yes. And that was, and then yeah, there must I, first got to know you at the family place, but of course that didn't exist at that point.

So there must be a story to tell about the bit 

Viv: I did. I, did, what most people do when they finished clinical psychology training, or they did at that time anyway, which is, I entered the NHS and I did that for 20 years. So I I started local to where I was living, and then we moved to Wales. Yeah, so I worked for a long time in in Paris, in Wales, and I moved to a different Welsh.

NHS department and then back, but I've always been in children and family services. 

Julie: I was gonna 

Viv: ask throughout that time. Yeah. 

Julie: So was your training with adults as well? 

Viv: Yes. The train, the training covers adults learning [00:17:00] disabilities, older adults and children. Ah, and you you have compulsory placements in terms of your training and then you specialize.

But I always, knew I would end up working with families. 

So I didn't it's not a surprise to me that I've ended up in family services. 

Julie: Yeah. That's where you started. 

Viv: Yeah. 

Julie: And then you've come right round to it. Okay. 

So the beginnings of the family place, tell us 

Viv: how that came about.

I was working I was working in Cams in the NHS, and then I moved sideways into a post. With the local authority working with fostering an adoption, which I really, enjoyed. And in a way the sort of umbrella of social care gave me a lot more freedom, I think, than I'd experienced before [00:18:00] to develop services in the way I wanted to.

And I was running workshops with foster carers. I was running I did some therapeutic work and then I I led a project which was for intensive support for a small number of foster children. So a kind of wraparound support service for a small number. I was really enjoying that, that role.

And then that closed, so that was my second time that I was in a very intense environment and the kind of rug was pulled away just from a service point of view. And the combination of. Not being able to do much therapy work and having that lack of control. I think what happened over that time is I, suddenly thought if I don't run a service or if I don't create my own work life, this is gonna keep happening.

I'm gonna be established, develop something, or be part of a [00:19:00] team, and then for, reasons completely outta my control, it's going to something big is gonna happen because obviously it happened to me twice. And and the other reason really was that I'd come across DDP training with Dan Hughes and the play a couple of years before and I just really could feel.

Just how drawn I was to them and how it made much more sense to me than models I had been using. And so I self-funded and decided that I was going to go through the go through the supervision. And I don't like not being good at things so 

Julie: clearly, 

Viv: so if I start something, I have to finish it like I, I don't wanna just do one level and leave it at that.

I feel and actually I think that is why I am, I moved away from the music therapy because I didn't think I could ever be a really good music therapist. 

Julie: And, 

Viv: and I would always be an [00:20:00] average music therapist. 

Julie: But you want to be top 

Viv: girl. I want to, bere. I just want to be really, I just want to give the best of of what I give.

And yeah. So the DDP and the Thera play, I came across at quite a similar time and I decided this is where, I want to go. And so I, I paid for all my supervision. I paid for the trainings. And at the same time, my project, the rug got pulled away from the project I was involved in.

And so I thought the only way I'm gonna be able to deliver therapy is to do it independently. It was never my plan to be outside of the NHS. I still feel highly ambivalent about it. 

And I think all services should be free. So that the whole thing of running an organization which involves, funding dilemmas and charging people sits really uncomfortably. Yeah. After all these years. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Viv: But I simply at that time, couldn't [00:21:00] deliver either DDP or Thera play within my social care or NHS work context. So I held onto the NHS for another few years, one day a week. But basically I started taking on local authority funded therapy in, Thera play or DDP, and I've never wanted to work on my own, so I immediately found some friends.

So there was no, grandiose plan. I just basically found a couple of colleague who I trusted because I don't think I think when you work with very complex families, my, my experience is that you need a team. That there needs to be more than one of you when you start to do this very complex work or, you need to find some kind of virtual support system.

Julie: Yeah. 

Viv: And I met you then. Yes. And I yeah and basically a, an organic development happened and it grew much more rapidly than we could [00:22:00] keep up with. And we moved from this tiny, it was very it, had lots of wood lice in it and it had a very unhygienic kitchen and the toilet wasn't attached.

And it was really quite a bit of an environmental nightmare. This building we were working in. And 

Julie: yeah, I remember 

Viv: it, but we all made the best of it. It was orange gloss and we all paint. I got my friends and we all painted it and yeah, it was very exciting. 

And then we moved and we moved to a beautiful building.

So things have moved on since then. Obviously 

Julie: they have. And I remember my relationship with you grew because you became, I think I did my. Thera play training 

Viv: you? Yeah, I was your trainer. Yeah. 

Julie: I just started at an adoption agency. I was looking for a Thera play training. I was living in London, but the next one happened to be in your place in Hay on Wise.

So thankfully my work paid for me to come over there and I did my training with you, and [00:23:00] then you became my supervisor. And I used to come over to Hay. 

Viv: Yeah. Quite regularly. 

Julie: Yeah, quite regularly. For supervision 

Viv: groups. 

Viv _Recording_640x360: Yeah, 

Julie: for supervision groups. And I, really valued having supervision in a group because we got to see each other's practice.

You always provided a great lunch. I used to stay overnight with somebody and then could travel back, and it gave me that time to digest what would be 

Viv: What 

Julie: we've been doing. I found it really, rich. So thank you Viv for that. 

Viv: So you I think supervision groups and team discussions, like they're so rich.

And if you can, there's something about the, Thera Plaine, DDP obviously, which is the direction I went in, where you video your work, which I know is not. Popular with some people that you would video a piece of clinical work, but the learning is just incredible. And to watch yourself rather than talk about your work is a really [00:24:00] different experience.

It's very humbling. It's quite embarrassing. And you watch yourself repeat your mistakes over and over, and you, see yourself, I think, in a much more accurate way than if you just talk to somebody about your work afterwards. 'cause the way you look back on your work in a supervision session is very different than if you actually observe a video.

Julie: Yes. 

Viv: Yeah. 

Julie: Yeah. Especially when there's a time lapse between actually having the session and maybe having supervision three weeks later. 

Viv: Yeah. 

Julie: And you're, just relating it, but yeah the, showing one's videos of therapy to, a group of other novices was, a, yeah. A really rich experience.

And you, so you have created this organization, is it an organization, charity? What's 

Viv: It's an it's, a limited company and we have a charitable arm. So it's, I'd say [00:25:00] it's both. It's 

Julie: both. 

Viv: It's both, yes. But it is, yeah, it's it, grew and, but I think going back to what you're saying about the group supervision, it feels like the models that the family place has developed an expertise in are very are very specific.

So it, it's strange because obviously I live in quite a rural area, but we must have one of the highest intensity of fully qualified. Thera play and DDP people in one place. 

Julie: Yes. 

Viv: Because of the because of the family place and then people who are interested in a similar kind of integration of work models are drawn towards it.

And we've had such a high quality of team members come towards us. And if people are not employed we've got people who work as associates and they tend to be quite senior people who've got many years experience and they want they want a dose of [00:26:00] something that's specific to what we do, which is a lot of whole family work and, you 

Julie: know, so yeah.

Describe to us a sort of, I was gonna say a typical week. There will never be a typical week. But what where do your families emerge from? How do you get referrals into the family place and then what. What would you do in your support of that family? Just, to give us a sense of the model that you work with.

Viv: The, referrals will all come almost all from local authorities. Not, all, but that would be the main, route. Obviously there's, funding challenges across all services aren't there, so we won't, go into that. But in terms of the model the, model we, thinking neuro sequentially.

So if we think about Bruce Perry's work and thinking about the the, brain development and the impacts of [00:27:00] trauma at different stages, I often think about what we provide as almost like a therapy before therapy. So when you're working in places like Cams A child who's in an unsettled placement might get referred in.

So if we think of any CH care, experienced child who's bouncing between different families and the, and they won't be able to be seen because they're not in a stable situation. And we know that once we provide any intensive therapy, it often wobbles things. And so my experience of my role within children looked after an adoption was that it's very difficult to find a therapy approach that can be impactful when things are really highly unstable. And in a way that was our, client group. Our client group is children and families who are inherently unstable. They might be moving from one [00:28:00] family to another.

The family might be in crisis, they might be moving into residential. And so from a. From a developmental point of view, the approaches we were looking at were always centrally, including the attachment figure. Whether it's a foster carer, a kinship carer, an adopter, they would centrally be involved in everything, which was not always their experience before they would, come to us.

And we were looking at anything relating to regulation. So we are all trained now in Sarah Lloyd's bus model, but before that, we we did a lot of work with Aine Breck, with the SAI Sensory Attachment Intervention Model, and we've worked with a number of OTs, so thinking about bodily regulation and then thinking about relationship development.

So just, in terms of how hard is it for a child who's experienced adversity and a, break in trust. To actually trust [00:29:00] anybody. And they may have moved three or four times, if not more. And then we put them in a situation with a new family and say this is where you're staying. 

Julie: Yeah.

Viv: While maybe and that group, this group of children it would, of course, they're gonna find it extremely difficult to trust and to have reciprocal relationships and to, actually have a felt sense of safety. 

So the, that, that's where, in a way, the Thera play has, come in. And it's incredibly impactful.

It's not for everybody. And the DDP, which I don't know if all the listeners will be. Familiar with what these approaches are, but DDP and Thera play really share very coherent theoretical underpinnings. So although they're very different styles. Yeah. And, DDP is, much more thinking about story and the past and the future and what's happened [00:30:00] today and talking through things.

Therapy is very much non-verbal and to do with moment to moment connection. So they're and it's much more structured, the play than the other approaches. But it's people who come across it often, quite surprised how how structured it is. But they have a real, those three, and we have creative therapists too, who I think span, if we think about brain development in terms of thinking and reflecting or.

Attachment styles or regulation. The creative therapies kind of span, span across all of that. Yeah. 

Julie: Yeah. That makes sense. 

Viv: We work very closely with music and art therapy as well. 

Julie: Yeah. So that sense of Yeah. The, body then the relationships 

Viv: and then the, 

Julie: reflection about it. 

Viv: Yeah. That that, that, kind of movement between your emotions and your thinking.

So the affect and the reflect, which for many children, this is what I mean about therapy [00:31:00] before therapy sort of thing. Yeah. For many children who we see, and we tend to see the more chaotic end. So people weren't refer generally speaking to a service like ours until they've tried everything else.

Julie: Yeah. 

Viv: We would tend to get a very dysregulated and parents in cri parents who struggle. Yeah. That would be our typical families that get that, that get referred in so that they're not gonna sit and, do EMDR or be able to talk about. History. The children often can't talk at all. In fact, it's a it's, a victory to keep 'em in the room.

Julie: Yes. 

Viv: In a way, yeah. So I feel like we are, in a way the building blocks to help children manage their bodies to start to be in a relationship to start to be able to tolerate maybe somebody reflecting about something like they hit their parent, so it their, beginnings really.

And I think through a child's [00:32:00] life span they they often need different things at different times. 

Julie: Yeah. And what you've described there is that sequence is the natural sequence from, pre-birth and birth. It's the body that, that becomes the relational tool.

Viv: Yeah. 

Julie: And it's the relational tool that then develops language that then becomes the thinking. And so what you are, it sounds like from what you've described and it's your, model, but also in other another set of other 

Viv: places absolute other places are using are using these principles too.

Julie: This, that principle of Yes, you've got an 8-year-old that their body and their emotions are still way back 

Viv: Yeah. 

Julie: Are, right back at the beginning. And, I remember learning this from you in the, training but also in [00:33:00] supervision and also from other people. You know how you can't always remember Exactly.

Yeah, no, I know it comes from all 

Viv: sorts of places. Yeah. 

Julie: But that sense of say you've got an 8-year-old who some something is, hasn't yet caught up in, in their body and, their psyche. And is it because they had an adverse experience of that when they were little? And so they're shutting off from it.

So I'm thinking about in therapy, you invite a child to engage in an activity and all hell breaks out. It's, just, woo, okay, this is not okay for this child. 

Viv: Yeah. 

Julie: Is it because it's just weird and they've never done it before and so they're rejecting it? Or is it because when that thing happened in a similar way when they were younger, it went badly wrong or it caused pain, or it was related to mistrust?

Yeah. Thank you for helping me understand that, and I guess that's a [00:34:00] big part of your work. 

Viv: It, and it's that that question's really, it's almost like every family. And every child because they're unique. The answer to that question's never straightforward, is it? Because the answer is it depends.

It, 

Julie: always is. 

Viv: It depends. It always depends. It depends on the the inro experience and, what happens in those early months. But the, I, there are a few kind of theoretical pieces and, I find it really helpful to come back to theory, to stabilize you as a practitioner to think why am I doing this?

Because when you're in a situation, it often feels counterintuitive, confusing, chaotic, and you, have your approaches, whatever they are, but it when, you're working with with early years trauma it, can be quite discombobulating to you as a practitioner. And the, one of the pieces I come back to you over and over [00:35:00] again is is about primary and subjectivity.

And if we think about newborns. Infants, and of course in in uterus as well, the way in which those reciprocal interactions develop from infancy with the adult body and the adult person as the play object. Primary and subjectivity, which when you are when you are looking after or around a healthily attached baby developing, it's, it is absolutely extraordinary what they can do.

And when that's been missing for what, for whatever reason Yeah, of course. I think there's lots of reasons where it, it goes awry that we don't focus on as well. So if we think about medical trauma or severe reflux or bad eczema or prematurity, that there's lots of reasons where that arise where these things can be knocked off kilter through, through that.

There's lots of stigma aren't, [00:36:00] isn't there around attachment difficulties as, if the parents to blame. Whereas actually to get that the interactions and the dance going well a lot of things have to be lined up. I was quite influenced by the work of Barry Brazelton. 

The fine observation of.

Infant interactions. And also I worked on one of my placements at Guy's hospital where they, had a feeding program for vulnerable birth parents who, were the, babies weren't feeding properly and you only have to get the timing off a tiny bit for it to start to to, to escalate into something.

And so that primary res, that primary in subjectivity, I think if we look, our, look at our care experience population, nearly every, one of those babies hasn't had that experience. And that underpins ins [00:37:00] everything. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Viv: Whereas if you if, you can't, if you can't feel safe enough to be able to have that inter subjective experience it forms the cornerstone of being able to develop attachment to being and of course that underpins huge number of other, o other things that come along with it. 

So this is where we see the impact of community parenting or having other people around that can pick up the bat on if the main carer is unable to do it. 

Julie: Yeah. For whatever reason, 

Viv: say for whatever reason so important. 

Julie: Yeah. Yeah. The illness or the absence for some reason of the parent, or huge family stress, which might be a refugee family or a family escaping war, or a family whose priorities are more about food, shelter they're at that bottom part of the triangle.

Viv: Yeah. There's so [00:38:00] many, there's so many reasons where it can where it can not just not set off on on, on a. Growthful path. And, but when I think about, so if you think about the 8-year-old or any age child really it's any age, it doesn't have to be a young child. And they might function relatively well in a surface level at school, or they might be able to play with toys.

People might not be that worried about them, but you try and get any spontaneous interaction going and it becomes extremely difficult. And I really was affected by a young girl I worked with quite near the beginning of my Thera play journey, who very bright girl, really capable. And she would play quite happily, but she wouldn't let her parent comfort her.

Be close to her. And she was incredibly [00:39:00] oppositional I dunno if it's the right word. I don't like any of those words that have a kind of denigrating feeling. Yeah. But if if you offered her two things, she'd say the one, and then if you offered the other, she'd change her mind and it for this parent, it was so difficult to provide anything that felt just comforting to either of them.

And yet this girl was incredibly capable and what she couldn't do, she couldn't do the kind of intimacy demand required in being together with another person. It was too frightening for her to, so we in order to do any kind of reciprocity, you have to feel safe enough in a kind of dependence that somebody can influence you, that somebody might impact you, that it might be somewhat outta your control.

Yeah, that, and this girl was particularly impactful to [00:40:00] me because it was early on and also I was questioning, is this the play a good idea? Why am I doing therapy play? Wow. She could have done play therapy for years and played happily. You mean she 

Julie: could have played but she might not have got the we of play.

Viv: No, exactly. She wouldn't 

Julie: have, you can do the I. 

Viv: Yes, exactly. 

Julie: And she could do that sort of playing about things. But that and that sense of the we is what's missing from, that's what's missing. I think all of our clients, even when I'm doing child-centered play therapy Yeah. I've got a real sense of the children who've got an immediate capacity to do the we and then we're off.

Viv: Yeah. 

Julie: And then there are lots of children who can play on their own. They can even involve me in a play game. But there is no sense of, we, yeah. There's no sense of me being able to change things, influence things. They [00:41:00] find that hugely threatening. Yeah. And then will go back in their shell. So I think that sense of the we is what's missing for many children.

Who, as you say, won't be picked up in school or anywhere else, could often be actually quite compliant and achieving very well in lots of ways. But they don't have that sense of together, we 

Viv: Yeah. 

Julie: That, that dance. 

Viv: Yeah. And I, think it is very interesting when you, when thinking about children who've had to move family.

Just the impact. 

Julie: Oh, 

Viv: of that is so profound. Whatever age. Yeah. And of course our understanding from a neuro neurology point of view has moved on, but just the overwhelm of that experience and how we can support them to recover from that and to to gain some kind of felt [00:42:00] safety and trust in another person and in, in a way, I think that's probably at the heart of all the work that I'm doing and the family place is doing is, all to do with that at whatever level, whether that's training or whether that's an adolescent who can talk or whether it's a little one who's who's completely out of control of their body.

Julie: And that this is making me think then about the program that you've, put together or, protocol that you've put together, the by your side. 

That, could you tell us a little bit about that and how that came about? 

Viv: That, that came about because I was asked to do some transition work.

So I was it was, it started before I set up the family place actually. So I was still working in the NHS and I was asked to do. As part of my work a piece of [00:43:00] transition work. And there didn't seem at that time, so this is a while ago, there didn't seem to be a sort of framework for doing it.

People were doing very different things. So some people were doing they, the family support work would go in and they'd, do a bit of life story work or they do a tree or a river or people would do different kinds of things around transitions. But there wasn't a framework with a, sort of theoretical coherence as I saw it at that time, to, to latch onto.

And I had done, at that point, I'd done the Thera play training. I'd done the DDP training. And what I thought is that what you really want is to. Look at who is there to support the child the best. And that is the person who there, that is their main attachment figure. How can we provide some continuity for that child across context?

Because it's [00:44:00] totally overwhelming. And so the by your side model that the, idea behind it is that the whole team around the group share. An attachment to trauma, understanding about what it is we are seeing which often isn't what's on the surface. So a lot of things happen between the adults.

So for instance, a child will fling themselves on the new parent and want to go home and push the foster care out. And if you're not careful, people will see that as good news. And it's a strange, it's a strange situation because if you thought of any of your relatives and if you were in the tragic situation, which obviously some families are in where you have to let go of a child and hand them over to a stranger, you would work extraordinarily hard to prepare them to to show the new person all the special ways that you need to be looked after, to do detailed notes, to to think of all the rituals that the child uses [00:45:00] to settle to bed, and all of those sorts of things.

You'd work so hard to do that, and you'd. You'd make sure it took time and that you checked in on them and that the relationship didn't disappear. And yet somehow our systems, there was this idea that a clean break was a good idea. And for a young child not seeing their foster care carer again, as if they've died they don't understand that the system is saying that this is a settling period, for instance.

So the whole model is based on using that shared understanding, supporting the adult dynamics, because anyone who's supported transitions the adult dynamics are really intense. And once you focus on the child and how overwhelming it is for the child. This, that the adults often get overwhelmed because really what we're doing is unbearable.

It's so unbearable. And so as we move towards thinking we don't want the child to be on their own, how can we stay by the [00:46:00] child's side? The adults then get overwhelmed. So we are having to do support for those adults and normalizing dynamics alongside what are we gonna do in practice? So what the model does is uses Thera play sessions as the main kind of structure, because it's very predictable and you can start it without talking about the move.

So you can introduce a really simple. Culturally appropriate sequence of activities that are the ones that the child is familiar with. That you can create a repeated kind of ritual of play that then can pass over time, be used during introductions and continue in the new placement.

And that, is really it's just very stabilizing. It's amazing. Now, we, I've done a lot of transitions now with really quite complex families and. [00:47:00] The power of that ritualistic play and it's tiny sequences. It's it's literally Yeah. A blanket run or a particular song and a beanbag drop.

Yeah. Three or four activities sequenced together that the child then can take through with them. So that, would be the defining predictable structure. And then in that, we would have around the quieter part of the session introduce some narrative about what's happening in a child friendly manner, and make sure that we agree how we are gonna communicate the story in phrases that can be shared with school and with all the adults, so that the child is getting some kind of sense about what's happening to them.

Julie: So again, a sort of ritual around that language. Something about keeping the same phrases 

Viv: Yeah, 

Julie: the same tone, the same language, 

Viv: and talking about what the un talkable is. Yeah. Like nobody wants to say to a 4-year-old [00:48:00] why they couldn't stay at home and why they're moving, and that no, they're never going back there, and that they're gonna lose the, pets.

And people don't, oh, and that they've moved six times already. People don't know how to have those conversations with children. Because it's too, difficult. So we've found some lovely ways, and obviously this is a group effort. Lots of people have contributed to this, but we use a treasure box and a candle ritual and various drawn from other kind of approaches to really help children know and have time to process that something really big is happening.

So the whole idea is that. They have people by them si that by their side rather than being left on their own to manage. 

Julie: Yeah. It's, a bereavement that they're experiencing or multiple bereavements. 

Viv: Yeah. 

Julie: And as well as 

Viv: It's, huge. And people, it's interesting. People almost have this idea about swapping [00:49:00] attachments and of course each loss of attachment is, a huge grief.

But they might not. And they and their birth family of course. So if we, if you track back, so we would always track back to the birth family situation and it could be that a 4-year-old has had eight different families. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Viv: And that it's just multiple loss, upon loss.

And, it's no surprise that what often happens is that they hunker down into a default position of I'm on my own. I'm on my own. 

Julie: The. Yeah, 

Viv: I'm on my own. How can I survive? I'm gonna pretend I'm okay. And they smile and they go into a new family in a very false, compliant kind of a way.

And we often, with our work, even with much older children when they talk about where things start to go wrong, they very, often start [00:50:00] talking about the transition. And parents will say it was like I stole them, or it, didn't feel it, it didn't feel right at the beginning, but there wasn't a way to process that or the foster carer was devastated, but there was no support for that foster carer.

There's so much loss around it 

Julie: And the language around. Around that transition. And then the celebrations that are sometimes brought out the ending party, the goodbye party with the family, the foster family, and then everybody gets new clothes and the excitement of moving into your forever home, all of that language.

This is reminding me of my work in the adoption agency or the adoption charity and how shocking it can be for the adults and the social workers for me as the therapist to introduce the idea [00:51:00] that maybe that's not so helpful for the child. It's not a great day. It's not such a cheery event.

It might be a very longed for event that final, move. If it is the final move it. But where are all the other feelings. 

Viv: It, 

Julie: it's hard 

Viv: to express. You express know. It reminded when I started to do transitions, it really reminded me, this is a quite a, bleak sort of example, but I did a PA big piece of research on the Asian tsunami with the, it was, to do with the foreign office.

And I headed up a piece of research and one of the things that really shocked me was when. Very, at that time, it was very difficult to, get a birth, a death certificate given because because the, bodies [00:52:00] were, lost at sea so that people didn't have a death certificate. So there was a and they were getting all the bills and the banks, and so we were working with families who were receiving long time after their their loved ones had died.

They were receiving all of the paperwork around somebody who was still alive because there wasn't a death certificate. So there was a big push to try and help people get the death certificate. It was a really, it was a really big practical problem as well as a, an emotional closure grieving issue.

But I remember really. Clearly what one, one professional who was supporting a family who woke up really excited because they'd managed to achieve getting this death certificate. And it had been such a, sort of fight to get this death certificate. And I was just so shocked and saddened by like, how could this possibly ever be felt as a good thing.

But you could see that [00:53:00] the people who were fighting so hard to get it and it was really important, the fight, and it was really important to get it, but where they were was so entirely different to where To the meaning of it. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Viv: For the family member. And it adoption sometimes feels like that, where the meaning from some professionals is that excitement we've found somewhere for this child to be safe.

This is like our golden outcome. And so you've got a group of professionals, so pleased. And yet, and parents. And yet food hired. And parents they're yearning and so excited and desperate and they love their child already. Of course. Absolutely. That they've had a long lead in Yeah.

And which the child hasn't had. Yeah. It's a, big mismatch of very strong emotion. 

Julie: Yeah. That huge expectation of the final move in day and our life begins as a family, which it's not to say [00:54:00] that doesn't exist, that it, is ex for the parents and sometimes for the child. It can be exciting, it can be a sense of new beginning, it can be all of those things, but how can we hold all sorts of feelings together?

How can we give space? 

Viv: Yeah. It's almost like a healthy ambivalence. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Viv: But if you, if we think what, would we want? Ambivalence I think is a good. A good summarizing kind of word isn't it? Because why would it ever be one thing? 

Julie: Because it's always a story of loss and it's often a story of loss for the adoptive parents as well, because they'll have often a story of loss that has brought them to being parents in adoption.

Viv: It's very similar with with kinship carers as well. When and one of the things that I find quite interesting is sometimes with kinship families, because the [00:55:00] child has always had from birth, maybe the grandparent or the aunt or the uncle there in the background, we might see all sorts of difficulties, but sometimes there's more of a, stable core in terms of the child has a feeling that they can be loved.

Because they've had something you they've, had something there. Does that make sense? 

Julie: Yeah. But there's also the loss from the grand, say the grandparent, that it's their daughter or son 

Who in some ways, and I'll say an inverted comm has failed in their parenting or something has gone awry.

That has meant these children on their grandchildren are not able at that time to be cared for by their own parents. So what is that as the, other adults in 

Viv: that Oh it's, incredibly complex 

And, all the parents and carers we, certainly that I work with they're extraordinary that [00:56:00] the lengths that people go through to absolutely try and do their best.

It's yeah it's all very humbling and, Heartbreaking. And difficult and hopeful. It's, it's, very complex. 

Julie: It's, I think that the most complex work we can be doing. And, for another episode, 'cause I know we're gonna wrap up soon, but for another episode, is thinking about us as the workers, what impact this has on us.

To be working in that complexity, to be working with that pure joy one moment and absolute confusion and sometimes fear another moment how are we cared for as the practitioners in order to su sustain our work? Yes, we've in the UK at the moment, or in England at the moment [00:57:00] there are lots of issues to be thinking about, funding for adoptive families and special guardianship families.

So there's a whole sustainability question going on in, in, our region at the moment. But there's also the emotionals. Sustaining of ourselves in the work. How, do we turn, how do you turn up for work every day? 

Viv: Yeah. 

Julie: How do you, it's a very, 

Viv: it's a very interesting question. Yeah. And it's obviously for a separate conversation, but I've been thinking a lot about for leaders of organizations how does the trauma and the parallel process get managed?

How can we sustain healthy teams when our every day is trauma and the context around the families is not functioning well? It's really it's really [00:58:00] worth thinking through how it can be sustainable and how how the dynamics between. Between team members and you, you know how the whole thing can work in a healthy way.

There are so many like, we see trauma almost. It's like smoke signals, isn't it? This brings me to residential. We used to, we always knew something was going on when there'd be a fallout or some vulnerability, you'd be thinking, what is going on in the community? Yeah. Something is going on and it would be like the distress would come up or down, but there'd be smoke signals coming out that, something was amiss.

Julie: So 

Viv: I think from an organizational point of view, it's very interesting as well. 

Julie: Yeah. To think how do we keep going in this work? How do parents keep going in their parenting? Oh gosh, 

Viv: that is huge 

Julie: in all of, many of the parents I work with. And a, as I'm sure you are with many of your families how [00:59:00] do we.

Put that care around them, those big kind hands. How do we help that with the parents as well. Because they'll also have their stories 

Viv: Yeah. 

Julie: And who's caring for their stories. But ultimately you've kept going, 

Viv: I have kept going against the odds. Yeah. 

Julie: You've kept going, bill. 

Viv: No, I feel, I do feel like that is a good thing to say at the moment because keeping developing something and keeping some, something going in this current context that we are in at the moment feels like a proper achievement.

And the, people who are, that, the people who are in this field they're properly dedicated. They're a very, passionate group of people who are absolutely trying to do the best they can to support this group of families. 

Julie: Yeah. And you, Viv, have done. Years and years of this, and thank you for that with your families and thank you for all the training you've done.[01:00:00] 

And I've certainly benefited from that. And then that bleeds out into all the people that I've trained or supervised my students at Ro Hampton. It's never one person's works. Yeah. So 

Viv: we remember we talked about, we worked some, we worked a strategy retreat, weren't we? And we talked about the cats and the kittens and it, is a bit like that, isn't it?

You've got all of these, and of course everyone's influenced by their, teachers and the people Yeah. That have influenced them. 

Julie: The families, the children we work with. And at some point we'll hang up our. Whatever, uniform, whatever we have. Hang up your hat, is it? Yeah, but I know that there are others coming after us who may not do it. Oh, I hope don't do things in the same way you've done them. I've done them. But there will be essence of that that will go on for a very long time. But Viv, thank you so much. I could talk to you for [01:01:00] hours and it's lovely to see your face on this. It's a Friday afternoon.

We're getting to, I 

Viv: know we're doing well Friday afternoon. 

Julie: We've done really well for a Friday afternoon, so I'll say thank you for listening to this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy, and I'll say a very warm and grateful. Thank you to Viv Norris. Thank you, Viv. 

Viv: Thank you so much, Julie.