EP74 From Photocopiers to Pandemics - Managing Interruptions

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'EP 74 From Photocopiers to Pandemics: Managing Interruptions in Therapy"

[00:00:00] 

Philippa: Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me, Philippa. 

Julie: And me, 

Philippa: Julie. 

Julie: And this week it's kind of part two of something we started thinking about a few weeks ago, and that's interruptions. And we're thinking about particularly interruptions on a really big scale. Things like the massive interruption in all of our lives of COVID, of the pandemic, and also the micro interruptions that can happen, say, in a therapy room when a child suddenly puts the brakes on or somebody walks into the room.

So we're, we're thinking about the impact of interruptions. I suppose, Philippa, the kind of, it, you know, the, the everydayness of interruptions. Life has interruptions. It's not smooth. And actually having interruptions in therapy because of funding or something [00:01:00] else, you know, how do we work with that ourselves?

How do we work with that with the families, and work with the child to help them to navigate these, these things that happen in life? Life doesn't go smoothly. There are interruptions. Um, and, and, yeah. Well, 

Philippa: I suppose it's al- I suppose it's also how do parents manage that? Especially, you know, w- w- when we had COVID, there's, there's loads there, but there's also if your therapist's ill or the school teacher's poorly- Mm

'cause the interruption in lessons, if you've got a TA alongside your child or, you know, their class teacher that helps that fe- that, that sense of felt safety for a child- Mm ... and then for whatever reason they are not there, or they leave, or, you know, that interrupts the learning, the therapy, the connection, the relationship.

How do we, I guess, as therapists, teachers, social workers, manage that? How do parents- Mm ... foster carers, adopters, support the [00:02:00] child, you know? It's a, it's a big thing, isn't it? Last time we talked about, I guess, things that I would think about, more everyday interruptions. The moving from dinner, you know, from play to, to dinner.

From, you know, TV to school. Those kind of, you know, everyday rhythm interruptions. These are- Mm ... a 

Speaker 3: little 

Philippa: bit bigger, aren't they? A little bit more, um, I don't know what the word is. They're, they're, they're not your everyday thing that every kid is doing. 

Julie: Yeah. So they might be, excuse me, very specific to the children we're working with in therapy.

There are particular interruptions, regular interruptions, planned interruptions that happen within a therapy intervention, and then there are the unexpected interruptions. And I suppose if we, we can think about the regular ones first. There's the, you know, as, as you and I know, that the funding for adopted and special [00:03:00] guardianship children and families has been greatly reduced in the UK.

Well, not in the UK, it's in, in, in England this fund runs. Uh, it's been greatly reduced in the last two years. So there has been a big interruption into the, the regular pattern of therapy I used to be able to offer to a family. I can't offer it that regularly. So there's those interruptions. But also there's the regular ones that happen.

You know, school holidays, I tend not to offer therapy in school holidays just because it happens that the families I'm working with at the moment go away, they have family elsewhere, and that's where they're, where they're cared for, or they're in clubs and, and they want the break from coming here. Um, and then I suppose I'm thinking about sort of planned interruptions.

I, I... There's been two that have been in my head this morning. Um, couple of years ago I had a, a knee [00:04:00] operation, and it was under the NHS, and I had my date planned, and I had it all set with the children, and I did explain to them what it was about. So I did say, "I've got a really poorly knee." They could see I had a poorly knee.

"I need to have an operation to make it better." And, and so we had the dates planned in, and the parents knew about it, social workers knew about it. And then of course, the night before it was canceled. So then it was booked in for three months later. Um, and then I had to make this decision. Do I then, having said to the children, "I won't be seeing you for two months", do I, you know, not see them for three months up to the operation, then another two months, or do I get them to come back in?

So there was a lot of thinking with my supervisor and the families about a planned interruption which we'd worked towards, and then suddenly it wasn't [00:05:00] gonna happen. So actually, I did see them again, and then two weeks later I was offered a cancellation, and the operation took place the next week. So- You know, that, that interruption to the flow and the predictability, um, where I talked with the families, I talked with the children, and actually it was really interesting.

I felt the children... Some of them were very young, and so their capacity to know what week by week i- is, i- i- is a bit, is a bit less than, say, a 10 or 11-year-old. Um, but actually I found that sort of planned interruption, although it was a bit, ooh, up and down for a while, did work really well, and several of the children made potions in the week after I, I was back to, to heal my knee, and they still ask, "Which is the bad one?

Which is the good one? Right, I can hit the good one then." I was go, "Yeah, you can hit the good one. Don't hit the bad [00:06:00] one." And, and I think that interruption g- gave, gave them lots of opportunity to do a little bit of caring. I wasn't in any way saying, "You must look after me," and I, and I wouldn't do that, but I noticed that's what they offered.

I couldn't get on the floor for about six months, which in play therapy is a bit of a problem. But I know when I've had other things happen in my life, interruptions, uh, a death of a family member suddenly, I, I haven't conveyed that to my families and to the children. And I, and actually I've used my supervisor t- to make, make those calls, and she was primed to do that, as I am primed to do that with my supervisees.

So there's... I, I, I suppose then my families are sitting with a bit of a mystery. Mm. This unknown person calls them and says, "Julie is going to be unavailable for the next three weeks due to a recent [00:07:00] bereavement." That was the phrase. Um, and, and then getting back in with the children while I was sitting with that bereavement and that grief, you know.

So yeah, I don't know when, when you've had interruptions that are to do with you, something that's happening in you, how do... Do you plan ahead? Do you have somebody to voice that for you? How does that work for you? 

Philippa: I have to say it's never happened, thankfully. Ooh. Touch wood. I guess the interruptions are when I've left, so permanently.

Mm. You know, when you've left a place. Mm. You know, so the place that I, I, you know, I've worked- Before when I, I worked in a fostering service for a, for a very long time, and I'd worked with children from kind of, you know, quite young or for long, long, like years worth of, you know, not necessarily therapeutic work, but social engagement, just popping around for a chat, just seeing them, and I'd seen them grow and develop [00:08:00] and, you know, go to new schools, do GCSEs, do SATs, you know, learn to ride a bike, lose their first teeth, all those sorts of things that you get the privilege, I think, when you work with families to see- Mm-hmm

over, over a good 12 years really. Mm-hmm. Um, so leaving that is an interruption, I guess. Mm-hmm. But a permanent one. Um, and that's hard because one is that, I guess, you learn very quickly nobody is irreplaceable, and there's somebody else who does the job that I did and is amazing at it and is really good.

And in some ways, uh, um, I now supervise her, so in some ways I have an indirect connection- Mm-hmm ... so the interruption- That's interesting ... for me wasn't quite as great as it was for the families. For other families, for other ones, they've, they often will send me information still through, you know, through other means or, um, you know...

Yeah, they'll send me little bits or let me know how things have gone or, which is really [00:09:00] nice that that connection's been there, but I suppose there was a lot of preparation for that. Yeah. I think for 

me, the biggest interruptions is, is in funding. Um, and that has, in my present day everyday life now, it is, it is the, the funding.

Um, I guess majoritively through the adoption, um, and special guardianship fund, but also, you know, schools fund work and things like that, and they don't always have... They have a short budget, and you don't know if it's gonna, gonna r- Mm ... run again or you can see the child again or, you know, s- sometimes it's, uh, with other professionals that you're supervising, that they've got a piece of work that's funded through school or through, through pa- you know, um, privately pay- parents paying privately or stuff like that.

And again, you know, that funding can, can end, and you don't always know when it's coming back. So, like yous- Mm ... talked about the adoption support and guardianship fund, you know, uh, we can end in September because now the fund is so, so [00:10:00] limited. And it doesn't restart again until the 1st of April, and I know I am not gonna see my kids on the 1st of April because there's a process, and we don't know, do we, how long that process is gonna take.

Mm. Mm. Actually, this time it feels like things are coming back really quickly. And when I say really quickly, within a month or so, so that within April I have started to reconnect with some of my families. Mm. But there has been a big gap, and some of the families that I'm talking to are saying, "We can't have that gap again.

How can we, how can we make it last longer? Can we see you once a month?" Mm. And- Spread it out. Yeah ... and that in itself is an interruption because actually- Mm ... for things like therapy and that, my answer would be, be no. A month is too long for- Mm ... you know, for it to have, in my view, any effect. Because the gap is so great, things have happened, and each time you'll rebuild, you're spending the time rebuilding and reestablishing a [00:11:00] relationship, and you're not getting to the, you know, the nitty-gritty of the stuff.

I, I say the relationship is the, the stuff. But, but- Mm ... it's building that sense of felt safety within the room, isn't it? Mm. Because you've had such long gaps. Mm. So we need to do it in a short ga- a short space, but then you're, you, you're not gonna see me for eight months. Yeah. Um, and that, for little people...

And so then you spend the first two months building the relationship back and saying, "I'm present, I'm here. I remember." You know, I do lots of things to try and- Limit the, the disconnect that the interruption brings. So I send Easter cards, I send Christmas cards, I send birthday cards. I- if par- I ask parents and, and caregivers to let me know if they've done something at school or they've achieved something or, you know, just something.

Then I'll send them a little postcard that says, "Well done," or, you know, "You're amazing," or, or something so that I- Mm ... try and keep indirect connection to reduce the impact [00:12:00] that this interruption has. Mm. But it still has an impact. It still is tricky. Um, you know, for teenagers who are going through everyday stuff every day and, and their space to come is with you to say, "Oh, do you know?"

You know, "Do you know what this is like today?" And blah, blah, blah. And they can just offload, and they've got that space, and you've spent years building that relationship up, to then all of a sudden not see you for six months. Yeah. It doesn't matter how many cards I send , they haven't got the space to come and say, "Do you know?"

"Do you know Julie was doing this the other day at school?" Um- Yeah ... and that's unim- you know, it might feel unimportant to, to, to policymakers, but actually it's massively significant for children- Yeah ... and young people who've had all these interruptions already in their big people. Yeah. Our literal job is to be predictable, consistent, and nurturing.

That is the therapy as far as I am concerned. That's a huge 

Julie: part of it, yeah. Yeah. Just, just [00:13:00] turning up, opening the door, having a date in our diary saying, "I'm here just for you," that's a huge part of the therapy, and when that gets interrupted or put on hold, that's... Well, I'm thinking about, you know, different children seem to...

Not deal, that's the wrong word. They seem to navigate that in such different ways. So, you know, often if I'm working in a school, we've naturally got usually the six or seven-week break for the summer holidays, July, which July and August, bit of September, and it's, it coincides with their, their school transitions, moving on to the next year.

And generally, I can't go into schools. Some schools are happy for me to still come in and meet the parent and the child in the school if there are staff around. So we've... And some children s- seem to give the message or manage that [00:14:00] by almost completely cutting off. It's like I don't exist, the therapy doesn't exist.

They put it in a different box, and it's, it's as though they, they really shut down on it. And maybe what, that's what they need to do. That's their protective, um, capacity. Other children, I think, really desperately miss the therapy, miss me, miss the resources. But I don't always know that the first time round.

Mm. So I try and get clues in the rest of the year before we have a big break. Other clues. You know, how do they cope with the ending of a session? You know, just that small interruption when I say, "Five minutes left. Okay, it's time to go back to class now." How do they manage that? And if, uh, some children really rail against that.

Fight. "No, I'm not ready to go back to class. I don't want to go back to class. It's not fair. You never give me enough time." And so that child is [00:15:00] likely to deal with the big breaks, the big interruptions in a similar way. So I try and anticipate that. But I also know there are children who shut down because that's the only option they've got, is to shut down and not protest, and just sort of shrug and go, "Phew, doesn't really matter."

You know, "Am I getting a different therapist in September? You don't really matter." Which as the therapist, I, you know, hands up, I can feel really hurt by. But I absolutely understand that this child has, has not had those reliable adults in their lives up to now, and so it's just like, "Oof, when's the next one coming?"

But- Yeah. 

Philippa: I suppose it makes me think about what, 

what message do these interruptions give to, to our children? What do they internalize it as? Y- you know, that's the thing that I- Mm ... I think about, is what, what are you, what is your body hearing? You're hearing my words say- Mm ... [00:16:00] we're having a break for Easter.

That's, you know, with all the children that have come up to Easter that I saw, 'cause the, the fund runs from the 1st of April to the 31st of March. So anybody that's kind of ended in January, February, and March, I've kind of said, "We're having a break. It's nearly Easter. It's nearly the school holidays, and then we'll, we'll start again afterwards."

That, that's kind of been the story. Uh, just to give some structure to it, some, some narrative to- Mm ... this is why we're seeing. It's not that I don't wanna see you, it's just that we're going on the break for this. Because, uh, what, uh, you know, they, if you're seven, eight, 10, 12, 14, you don't really need to know somebody's paying for this for you, and you're, you know, that doesn't, it's not really important or, or, you know, kind of what, again, what would that m- mean.

So what I think, though, is is when I don't see a child for, for two, three, four, five months, what message- 

Speaker 3: Mm ... 

Philippa: do they internalize from that? And I often wonder if it just feels like, again, that they're just [00:17:00] not important. It doesn't matter how many cards I send, how many, um, you know, how man- how much the narrative I give them.

Uh, certainly initially, that must... I don't know if it must. I, I think I would feel that way she doesn't wanna see me now. She's seeing somebody else 'cause loads can say, "Who, who did you have before me? Who, have you got somebody after me? Have you got..." Mm. You know, so they know that they're not your o- only chi- child you see.

They see sometimes, because it takes so long to lea- leave the blinking therapy room, the next child's coming in, and you're trying to... You know, so- ... so children know that they're not the only child you see. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. And like, "Oh, you're 

Philippa: seeing those other children and not me. Why aren't you seeing me?"

Especially if you've had lots of disruption in your life, you know, maybe you haven't had the care. Whatever reason, it's not a judgment, that, that y- you needed as a baby and a toddler. You internalize, "I am not good enough. I am not valuable. I am not okay," don't you? And then we have these interruptions.

Does that, does that mean [00:18:00] the same thing to them, you know? Or I think you were talking about before being in a school and somebody walking in to get something from the room or do some photocopying. Mm. What does that say that actually this isn't valuable? That somebody doesn't, you know, that this space for you isn't valuable enough?

Mm. It isn't valued to respect it and to keep it safe. And, you know, so in therapy we try really hard to build a sense of, of connection, to build a sense of value, to build a sense of, you know, we are amazed in you, you are wonderful. And then we do these things that says, "But, yeah, but you're not that much," 'cause I'm not gonna see you for six months, and I can just walk in your room, or I can move your favorite toy, or I can forget that you use this in the sand tray and it, and it, and somebody else has taken it.

You know, that is an interruption in itself. Mm. And that communicates, you know, value thought about, attainment, attunement that maybe these kids have missed. [00:19:00] 

Julie: I 

Philippa: th- 

Julie: yeah, I think... I'm, I'm thinking about that, that incident with the photocopier, which I'll share a little bit more of in a second. But there's something about what I think I might feel in that situation might not be what the child I'm seeing is feeling.

And then I have this sort of thought about whether I ought to be changing the child's view of themselves. So if the child has a view of themselves that it really doesn't matter, I don't really matter, to what extent do I- Challenge that. I want to challenge that. But I also don't want the child to have all the feelings I have about being interrupted.

So, uh, the, the one I'm thinking about, about 

the photocopier in a school, sometimes, not all the time, I needed to change from the normal room

 I was in, which had a piano in it, which had its own [00:20:00] challenges, to a room that was also the photocopying room for teachers. And everybody knew. I put a notice on the door, "Please don't interrupt at these times.

Session in pros- progress." All of that. But inevitably, somebody has to photocopy something. And having been a teacher, I absolutely get that. You need another 10 of something. And so there'd be a little rap on the door. Child and I will be on the floor playing, playing with something, uh, of, of importance.

Always of something important. Little rap on the m- on the door. "Don't mind me, I'll just be ever so quiet. I just need to photocopy." And, and then the machine would be on and, and people would be photocopying. And it, it drove me up the wall. I mean, I, it, it used to get me really, really angry. And sometimes I would say, "No, you need to come back later."

And they'd say, "But I need it for my class." So, and but often, I s- I saw the child just kinda collapse and shrug their shoulders and go, "Julie, it really doesn't [00:21:00] matter. You know, let them do it. Doesn't really matter." And yeah, your face is saying, oh- I know ... you're sort of a sad face ... I'm just saying, 

Philippa: no, you 

Julie: don't want that.

Well, I don't want that. But at the same time, how do I not get into an argument with this other member of staff- Mm ... which might be actually more alarming to the child- Absolutely ... to hear adults with raised voices. Because I, it would really fire me up. Um, while I, I absolutely understood why the member of staff felt they could slip in, but also that the disregard for me and for the child, and I think the child was often trying to protect me by saying, "Julie, it really doesn't matter."

Like, "Calm down, dear." You know? And, and I, it w- it would make me re- I mean, really furious- Mm ... that this session was being interrupted. And the, I th- I think you used the word respect earlier on. My work, my role as a play therapist, [00:22:00] is not being respected. So I think in some ways I'm looking after my- myself in that interruption more than the child.

I think initially my, my feeling- Yeah ... is I'm being interrupted. But of course, I, I'm there with the child. And, and I think if that was a medical person, if it said- you know, medical examinations going on. Or maybe in a school actually somebody still would tap on the door and come 

Philippa: into- But I think it's that, I think for our, you know, certainly for the children that I...

When, when we're working with children, it, I guess under the, the, the Adoption and Guardianship Fund, they've often had lots of early life disruption, neglect, you know. Um, they haven't had all the care and attention for whatever reason that they needed, so they often haven't been delighted in and adored.

And, and that doesn't mean [00:23:00] the people didn't love them, but they- Mm-hmm ... it's just that it maybe can't be shown in the way that the baby and the child needs. So what they internalize is, "I'm worthless. I'm unlovable. It's my fault. There's something wrong with me." So they do accept that these things- Mm

happen to them, but that's not an okay thing. 

Julie: Yeah, 

Philippa: it's not. No, and it's not about me saying to them, "It's not an okay that you feel like that." It's about me showing them- Yeah ... that this is. And that is what the interruption doesn't do. It doesn't show them. Because the only way we're going to change that feeling of being unloved to loved, being unvalued to valued, is to demonstrate it over and over and over and over again.

Mm-hmm. Just like it was demonstrated over and over and over again that they were unlovable, unvaluable, and, you know, all those other things. So words aren't gonna change it, are they? I mean, the kind words and that. But it is our actions that [00:24:00] change it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what's important, is that those micro or massive interruptions, whatever they are, feed into this- This negative self-view and self-es-esteem and, you know, um, stuff of, of, of, of, of that they have of themselves rather than the, the, the, what we want them to feel is loved, valued, you know.

And then be able to manage interruptions because it is gonna happen. Mm. But if you're managing it from a point of I'm okay- Yeah ... the world's okay, relationships are okay, the interruption means something different than if you're experiencing it from I'm unlovable, I'm unworthy, relationships aren't trustworthy, the world is, is messed up.

The interruption- Yes ... means something different, and it's that for me- Yeah ... it's the value that we place on that that we demonstrate to these kids, to all kids, over and over and over again. To all kids. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. You 

Philippa: are the most amazing, important thing [00:25:00] in this world, and we value you. Yeah. So we're not gonna bloody photocopy.

We're not gonna get rid of your funding. We're not gonna just pop in because I've left me glasses on the side. I'm gonna live without me glasses for an hour. It's not gonna kill me because you are more important- Yeah ... than, than that. That is, for me, the most important thing as a therapist we can do. 

Julie: Yes, to protect that.

And, and it's, it's helping me think about, you know, what meaning is conveyed by a child who shrugs at an interruption. And it's not that the shrug itself is a, is something to, ooh, be a bit concerned about. Because actually, for a, a child who has experienced, um, a, a, s- a strong bond with the adults around them, a child who does navigate the ups and downs of life okay, a child who knows themselves and knows that life, you know, has its, i- its stresses, that child's shrug might be coming from a [00:26:00] place of actually, Julie, I'm really okay with this, you know?

I know it's a pain, but you know, we're in a school, and I know I'm valued, I know I'm loved, and I'll just stop playing for 20 seconds while so- Mrs. So-and-So gets her glasses, and I'll be okay. So their shrug might convey actually a real strength. Mm-hmm. But another child's shrug is the one that I'm more bothered by, the one that I feel, oh, what has life given you that means that, you know, if Mrs.

So-and-So is coming in to cook her dinner and eat it and phone her friends, you'd still be shrugging. Because you've s- got this internal model of yourself that says, "I'm not worthy. Other people walk all over me. I don't get to make any decisions. I don't have any control." So it's- It's what we're doing all the time as therapists, isn't [00:27:00] it, is- Mm

not just looking at and hearing what the child is saying and seeing their bodies. We're really linking it up to thousands of other experiences with that child, those micro experiences that give us clues into how that child sees themselves. Quite often, those interruptions can't be avoided. But if we know the child really well, we have a sense of how we might help celebrate the fact that they can navigate that.

"Oh, that was really annoying, wasn't it? Shouldn't have happened. Mrs. So-and-So should just remember her glasses." That would be the, the, the, the sort of solid child. And, but with the child who's got m- a more wobbly sense of themselves and their shrug just is a giving up shrug, then I want to work much more with them to say, "Do you know, that really wasn't okay."

Absolutely. "You are worth so much more than that. I'm gonna [00:28:00] work really, really hard. Do you know what? I'm gonna put a chair against the door," or, "Let's put a bigger sign on the door. That's my responsibility. I'm gonna make sure that doesn't happen again next week." I might go over... you know, overboard. It's what that child needs.

I might give a much bigger response. But we need to know our children so well t- to get a sense of what an interruption means to them. 

Philippa: Yeah. Yeah. And then I think there's the, just as w- we kind of come towards the end, there's the interruptions of the big scale, like COVID. Oh. I've just done, um, a- an episode, it, uh, will, will be out by the time this goes out, with, uh, Mandy, um, Jones Fisher.

And we talked about the impact of COVID on- Yes ... um, certainly for Mandy, she's working with those four, five, six-year-olds who were either in utero or, or, or newly born. And- Mm-hmm ... and really the impact that she has [00:29:00] seen on that cohort of, of, of children- Yes ... who are now hitting school. Um, so that's some, you know, the, COVID itself and, and everything that we lacked in that time, um, you know, has had a big impact, and it's not something we can talk about.

But it was also an interruption to everybody's life, to adults' lives, to, to children's lives, to, to everybody's lives. Yeah. And was real- it was a scary, scary, scary interruption. Um- 

Julie: Well, it's, it's interesting. I've... At the time of COVID, so this is March 2020, I was working in an, in adoption and fostering agency, and I was working with probably about 12 families on, on my case- Case list.

I, I don't like that term. I had 12 families that I was working with, and then all of a sudden I couldn't go to their homes, they couldn't come to the office, I couldn't see them. [00:30:00] And it was al- it also marked the end of the s- the whole service. It was gonna close in the July. So this, there, there were two massive int- interruptions for those families.

But in the time I had with them between March and July when it finally closed, most of the families I contacted actually really enjoyed that interruption. Mm. Because if there were two parents, I, I, I remember these two dads, they had just adopted two, sort of a four-year-old and a three-year-old, roughly that age, and they were just so delighted to all be at home all the time.

And it, I think for that particular family, and several others I was working with, it really helped bond them. It, they were in the first one or two years of, of, of adoption, and actually COVID was a real release because [00:31:00] the kids didn't have to go to school. They could have gone, done, 'cause they would've been classed as vulnerable children.

The parents didn't need to go out to work, and also they couldn't have visitors. Mm. And it allowed them to just be their family unit and really get to know each other constantly for that first, what was it, six, eight, 10 weeks. Um, so I'm also curious in, in think- curious about what are the advantages of interruptions.

Philippa: Yeah. You know, it- And I guess certainly for COVID, for kids who, you know, re- school is really h- hard, um- Yes, hugely ... actually not having to go to school, it was, was, was amazing, wasn't it? Yeah. And, and you could see anxiety come down. You can see connections build, you know, behaviors that, that were probably [00:32:00] trickier at home almost start to disappear because actually the weather was great, wasn't it?

People were outside i- if they had the space, y- you know. Yeah. So, so there are definitely some advantages to it. But that, that ends, and those kids that had a great time, or not a great time, but that stress and anxiety and that was reduced because they weren't going to school, they didn't have, you know, that s- you know, children who'd got social anxiety and stuff like that, all that was taken away, like you say, because they didn't have to do those things.

Speaker 3: Mm. 

Philippa: But then the world restarts, so then we interrupt- Yes You know, actually I feel safe now. I don't have to see people. I've ... You know, we interrupt that and you- Yeah ... have to go back, and, and you can see then how that impacts and- Yes ... and then you, there was no, th- there was no, uh, provision to support [00:33:00] that.

You were at home or then you were back in it, and there was no way to ... Because we didn't know. That was not a, you know- No ... it was not a thing. We just didn't know, did we? But- 

Julie: Yeah ... I- And then it all happened again, you know? Yeah. Uh, we were on, off, on, off. But yeah, that, you know, the benefits of interruptions as well as the difficulties with interruptions, and how we as therapists, parents, help children to notice that they're wobbled by interruptions, and also know that they are part of life.

Things don't continue in the same way all the time. I often think about children's bodies. They are forever being int- sort of interrupted. Their, their growth is- Mm ... constantly letting go of being a five-year-old to become six, letting go of six to become seven. They're growing at such a m- a fast rate compared to, to us as [00:34:00] adults.

They, their sense of balance is always being interrupted 'cause their body changes. Mm. But the, yeah, the advantages of having a break to c- come away from the intensity of therapy and actually try out, you know, t- how a child in a break, how I as an adult in a break from my own therapy can actually s- you know, almost sort of stand on my own two feet, try out life with the therapist on my shoulder rather than directly in front of me.

And that, that's where I feel I can get my muscles going. Um- 

Philippa: And I guess that's the same for school, isn't it? Like, the, the, the, the interruption to school during the summer holidays and, you know, and there's pros and cons I guess with work that we have such a long time. But actually it allows children just to be without those [00:35:00] pressures of learning, without those pressures of, of all the things that come with a school day.

That actually, that interruption into that school life is actually for some children the thing that they live for. That's, that's the best time, isn't it? Mm. 'Cause they can go and be and they don't have to get up, they don't have to do the homework, they don't have to put the scratchy, itchy school uniform on or...

You know, for other children, it's, it's a lack- It's really hard ... of stability, it's a lack of school meals. It's, you know. So there isn't one fits all, is the, that's the thing. No. I suppose for me, the biggest thing is, is about how do we value the child within the interruption that's about to happen. Yeah.

How do we know or l- leave them- How do we notice maybe? Think about, yeah. Yeah. What, what that is like for them. Yes. Um, and even if we can just name it to be with it, we might not be [00:36:00] able to change it. No. But we definitely can value it, and that for me is the biggest thing is about how, you know, and the stuff about the A, you know, the ASF, GSF, whatever we call it, the Adoptions and Guardianship Support Fund, is that it feels like there's a lack of value for the children, that we are focused on money.

And I know that there's, that there is financial considerations, and I know. But actually, how do we think about an individual child and the messages that we give to them, and the, you know, and their families about, you know, you, you are super important and super amazing. And, and you know, there is constraints to what we can and can't do.

You, you are gonna have a school holiday and, you know- Mm ... we are gonna miss you. We are, you know, I'm your teacher and you're not gonna come back to me next year. Mm. Uh, and that, how hard's that? And then so then there's, there's a lot. And then [00:37:00] you go through the summer holidays and it's great, and then the week before you remember you're not gonna have M- Miss McCann anymore, and you're gonna see s- you know, Miss Kelly, and she's- Ooh

not quite nice or as pleasant as Miss McCann, and you're gonna, you're gonna be a bit- Think it's the other way around ... sad about that. You know? That is nuts. That how do we honor and value that with, whilst knowing it's got to happen? 

Julie: Yes Do you know what I mean? We can't take it away. There are limitations, there are disappointments, there are disruptions.

But how do we help a child and their parents notice what's happening for that child and what messages from of old are still playing out? What old feelings are being stirred up by even the tiniest interruption? Mm. And saying, "Never mind," or, "Oh, everybody gets a bit upset when, you know, Miss Kelly leaves," and, "Oh, y- you know, that's [00:38:00] just life," that's not really getting to the heart of what's happening for that child, which is, "Gosh, you're really, really sad."

Or, "It looks like you really don't mind, and I'm wondering if actually somewhere you do mind that I'm not gonna be here for two months because of my knee. I think somewhere that might be feeling not very good." Even though the child's saying, "Pfft, I don't mind. Be nice not to come for two months." Oh. I just wonder, I often look up, uh, so I don't look at the child, I kind of look around the room and go, "I just wonder whether you might also, also be feeling a bit cross with me that I'm not gonna be here for you.

I've got to go and care for something in my own body, and I won't be able to see you for a while. But I might..." And then I often finish with, "But I might be wrong." 

Speaker 3: Mm. Yeah. 

Julie: I might have got this wrong. But I just sometimes want to plant a possibility of [00:39:00] another feeling that isn't just, not just because that is what the child has needed to use.

A, a, a shrugging, a pushing off, a never mind, or a, "Pfft, you know, well, that's life." Mm. Is to offer some empathy and to go that next layer with them. Um- 

Philippa: And I think it's also about them knowing. I think you talked about, um, in, in an episode before about professional love. It's also about them knowing, "Actually, I'm gonna miss you.

I, I- Mm ... value our time together. W- I'm gonna miss playing with you. I'm gonna miss being with you. I'm gonna miss hearing- Mm ... about your day or your week, and, and I will really look forward to hearing, you know, about what- Easter eggs you've got or what- whatever it is when you come back to see me. Uh, you might be feeling this and, and I'm feeling this too, because you're of, of value to me.

You're- Mm ... this relationship is- Mm ... important to me. And, and [00:40:00] I delight in you. That's the thing, is I, you know- Mm ... I delight in these moments that we have together. Uh, and I'm gonna miss those, those moments. I think you might- Mm ... be too. If, if you don't, it's fine if you don't. But, you know, um, I think it, it needs to be both ways in some ways.

D- do you know what I mean? 

Julie: Well, I ... I mean, we've talked about this before, probably o- you know, off mic, but you have an endlessly positive, delightful delighting in your clients. And I don't always share that. I notice sometimes I'm really relieved to have a break from a child sometimes. There are some children I feel, yeah, relief and release when they cancel an appointment, because I find working with them so incredibly difficult.

It stirs up some things for me. [00:41:00] It can be very attacking. It can be very scary. And, oh, you know, there are some children who I do deliberately only see once a fortnight because it's so intense, and it's like our bodies need quite a long time to recover from that, to go back- Mm ... into that intensity. So I also know interruptions can be valued by me as a sense of relief, because working with some clients and some families, some families are

I, I find much, much harder to, to be alongside because they're in a hurting place, they're in an angry place. The system's let them down. They're really cross with me about something. That can be hard. And so the breaks, the interruptions can sometimes be a relief. Yeah. So I'm just putting that out as an [00:42:00] alternative view.

I'm hoping there are other people listening thinking- I'm su- ... "Oh, yeah, that's me as well." Uh. I, I'm ab- Because otherwise I'm 

Philippa: on my own. Yeah. I'm absolutely sure, sure there are. Yeah. There are, uh, you know ... And I think maybe that's our next episode, is how do we ... Do we always delight in children? Do ... Or, or families.

Do we always have- Are we always able to find that thing? That's for me is, what do you find that you can connect with, that you can see and feel that empathy, and feel that delight? Yeah. There's very- All that- ... very, very few that I, I can't do that with. Yeah. But sometimes it's hard. Yeah. And I wonder if that's...

And I know that that's not for everybody. You know, there are things- Yeah ... that push buttons and, and I wonder if that's our next episode is- Yeah ... when clients push our buttons- That sort of- ... how do we find the delight? 

Julie: That, [00:43:00] how, how do we offer what, you know, Carl Rogers would say is that unconditional positive regard?

What does that actually mean? Yeah. And what does that mean to you, and what does that mean to me? 'Cause I think you and I have quite different reactions to some of our clients. We could be in the- Yeah ... room with the same client and, and it would do different things to my body and my psyche to it would with you.

And I'm curious about why that happens because, uh, you know, I've been seeing videos of your clients for, I think, probably about eight years. And so often when you show me a video of a Theraplay client, I'll go, "My gosh, Philippa, how did you even stay in the room?" And then you'll say, "Oh, he's a darling really."

And I think- ... gosh, that's hard. But where does that come from? What is it that's brought you to see your clients in that way, and brings me to s- to see my clients sometimes in a, [00:44:00] ooh, I'm, I'm gonna be glad to finish with that 

family? 

Philippa: So- And yeah, and I think the importance that sometimes you, you need to have not the delight in some ways.

Because actually- Yes ... that's how families experience these kids. So if I... And so always being able to find those moments, um, might, for the child, be amazing, but it's not always validating for a family or a, you know- No ... or a... So there is pros and cons to it, I think, and, and it's how we work that. But I think that's a whole other episode you- That's 

Julie: a whole epis- yeah.

What is it like for your families to see you delighting in their children and getting a really warm relationship going with their children when they aren't able yet to do that in their day-to-day life? Yeah. That can be really painful for a parent to witness 

Philippa: in that sort of- All that they feel Well, you don't seem like we...

You, he doesn't do in here what, what [00:45:00] she does at home Yeah. Yeah. And that's true. And, and how, how do you work with that? And how, how, you know, how do you have the delight, the joy, the, the connection, and still be able to validate that actually they hit, they punch, they kick, they swear, they refuse to do everything at home?

Mm-hmm. We want them to experience the delight, but we also want to honor s- the, the parent's, the family's experience of actually it's not this joyful and easy at home. No. 

Julie: How do we bring that into the room? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. The raging child, the child who arri- arrives, as one of mine did recently, at the front door raging.

I mean, really raging, and didn't want to come into the session. Yeah. And, and I said, "Well, you can come into the session and rage." He was like, "Oh, right. Okay." Yeah. And we found a way of doing that and releasing some of that rage, expressing it. So yeah, delight and rage. Whole other episode- Yeah ... Philippa. 

Philippa: Yeah, so thank you for listening to [00:46:00] this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy.

We are available on all major podcasts. Also, you can watch us on YouTube and give us a d- a like on Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok. Um, all helps us. Thanks very much for listening. Okay, bye-bye.