EP73 Beyond Borders: Healing Through Play and Therapy with Steph Hunter

Host Philippa interviews social worker, therapist, author, and international presenter Steph Hunter about her current work and career, largely supporting children in care and trauma-informed services. Steph describes preparing a Canada keynote, “Humanising Services,” through the international Children and Youth Care (CYC) Network, and discusses clinical supervision and training for children’s home providers, work with inpatient services, and association with Mark Finnis on restorative practice. They explore how systems can unintentionally dehumanise and re-traumatise people (e.g., being treated as case numbers, medical assessments, inpatient restrictions, frequent moves), and emphasise curiosity, story-based understanding, trust, and relationship-centred practice. Steph explains restorative practice as a system framework focused on working “with” people to repair harm, and both discuss inequities for care leavers, promising practices like staying put/close, and learning from international policy differences, such as Malta extending care beyond 18.

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Transcript

Beyond Borders: Healing Through Play and Therapy with Steph Hunter

​[00:00:00] 

Philippa: Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and Therapy with me, Philippa, and this week my super special guest is Steph Hunter. She has had a huge, long career as a social worker and working therapeutically, primarily with cared for children. She's a published author, and she's also presents both nationally and internationally.

And you've had a massively interesting, uh, career, Steph, so welcome and thank you for coming on to Pondering Play. 

Steph: Oh, thank you. I was delighted to be invited, especially, uh, I, um... when I listen to your other podcasts, I love the one with Dr Karen Treisman, so I feel in such good company. Mm. How lucky am I?

Philippa: Oh, that's fantastic. So you've ki- you've had this long career. Uh, [00:01:00] primarily, uh, your, your kind of base profession is social work. Mm. But you've done lots since qualifying as a social, social worker. What, what are you doing at the moment? Where, where are you now? 

Steph: Oh, well, I'm, I'm really privileged, um, the work I get to do.

Now I'm planning my keynotes. I'm presenting in Canada in four weeks, which feels really global. That's w- uh, with the Relational, uh, Network, and I'm very lucky I've presented with them in Dublin a few times, so feel very fortunate. What else? Um ... 

Philippa: So tell us, tell us a little bit about the Relational Network.

What's that, if people don't know? Oh- What does that mean? What are you gonna keynote speak about? 

Steph: Oh, thank you. Well, it, 

my title is Humanising Services, and it's, it's not that I think services are inhumane, but I think in the main as a social worker, as a therapist, any of that work, we work with people who have been dehumanised.

If [00:02:00] w- if we're really honest, you know, we... Some of the things they've experienced, whether it's domestic abuse, ch- um, trauma, harms, I think w- and then we really do have to humanise things for them. So that's the title. The network's the CYC Network, which is international, and they, they have a journal and, uh, globally they 

Philippa: have- What does CYC stand for?

Steph: Oh, do you know, I was scared that some of the questions are... 'Cause aren't we acronym-heavy? Mm-hmm. And I promised myself I won't. Children and Youth Care Network, I believe. Um, and I, it encompasses practitioners, many of whom work internationally with children in care, which is a passion. Um, and I guess the global part in Canada, America, South Africa, you and I might think of social work in different roles, but the CYC covers a variety.

I hope that answers it. Mm-hmm. But it's a, a lovely network to be part of. Um, John Digney's a great link if anybody was listening and wanted to, to look up [00:03:00] more. He's in Ireland, and his Dublin event which, do you know, I pondered with your lovely name of your podcast, Pondering, it's the first year in a few years I haven't applied to present in Dublin and I, and I nearly want to, um, email John and say, "Can I do it late?"

'Cause it's the most wonderful conference every November. Um, and then the global part is, the Canada is part of it, which feels an exciting step. I've presented internationally a number of times, but never quite as far as Canada. So planes, trains, automobiles, a boat round Niagara, and, uh, 'cause my children usually come, and I think we are zipra- zip wiring round Montreal.

Philippa: Oh, wow. 

We 

Steph: might as well- That sounds 

Philippa: amazing ... 

Steph: make the most of it. Um, so I've probably started on something exciting in relation to career, but so it is a real privilege to present and share knowledge. Uh, w- what else do I treasure? Every Friday for over a year I've provided [00:04:00] clinical supervision for Parkwood, um, who are a national children's care company, um, children's homes.

That's a real privilege every Friday, and I deliver training too for them, and we've developed a practice model to help, you know, em- embed the principles- Yeah ... of therapeutic care. What else? Um, oh, I was with a lovely group and their leadership team, Nova Vita, another children's home group. I was with them recently.

Uh, I was at Vita Nova. See, I, I told you I might... Maybe it's an age thing. Um, so I best stop saying names, hadn't I? And then, um, I've been doing a little bit of work in inpatient services for children, where inevitably is a, is a lot of trauma as well as acute presentations. Oh, what else? Oh, Mark Finnis. I haven't got that name wrong.

Love working with Mark, and I have for a few years as an associate for Restorative Practice. 

Philippa: Okay. 

Steph: Um, and they've- I've worked in associate for a number of, of people, companies over the [00:05:00] years, and he is probably my favorite. He's, he's- He's a great person to work for, and I think it's a privilege to be alongside how he, he's been part of many councils really thinking- How they embed really meaningful relationships with the people they, they work with.

Um, so they're probably... But it, the joy of, we were really kind and talked about a long career, the joy is every year there probably is something else that's interesting and meaningful. Um, and I can look back and think, "Oh, that w- that was wonderful." Last year's highlight was probably, uh, working with the children's homes in Malta.

Speaker 3: Okay. 

Steph: And that's Alexia Baldachino leads the social work input in the children's homes, and that was wonderful. And they've, I keep in touch with what they're doing therapeutically. Um, and what a privilege just to, to learn from another country. It's a, there's a duality, isn't it? 

Philippa: Yeah, 

Steph: it is. I hope I offer something, but I learn from them.

Philippa: Oh, 

Steph: wow. Such a privilege. 

Philippa: I've got so many questions [00:06:00] that have come out from that. Um, so, so 

the first one is, is really about dehumanization. Mm. Um, so is that, you know, often as professionals, and I try really hard not to, but I can slip back into it, we'll say, "My caseload," or- Oh ... "I've got a new case." I know.

Um, and that's- But- They're families, aren't they? They're children. They're- So the caseload bit- Children are people ... is the dehumanization. Is that, is that what you, you're talking, or like if you ring and you're talking about a particular family, the local authority might say, "Well, just give me the whatever number," the, the charms number or the, the whatever number.

So, so people are known by a number or a case number or- All 

Steph: right. Philippa, you captured it beautifully. And then if you think about the principles of recovery from trauma, and one of them being don't re-traumatize, respond, and- But don't re-traumatize. We think about it, and children come into care, and the systems we've created to reduce inequalities, quite rightly, can be [00:07:00] re-traumatizing.

Very early, you, you have a medical. You know, and for children who've been harmed, that's not easy potentially. And it was so lovely the, a recent leadership conference I presented at, there was such a resonance in the, the audience, 'cause they said, "Do you know, it makes such sense. That's why we know to support in depth with the..."

It was the residential team was saying it makes sense to how they are around the medicals, the young people. So I guess in that layer where some of the, the, the workforce in chil- children's children's homes may not have had access to significant training. They might just have that heart and that values.

And then you kind of talk about the inequalities the health assessment's trying to reduce, but equally what that must feel like. You know, that process of a medical for a child who's potentially been physically and sexually abused. Mm-hmm. And, and I think we forget because they become so everyday, and we understand the evidence base that the health outcomes for, for children in care have [00:08:00] been poor for decades, since, you know, pivotal studies in the late '80s.

So we think we're closing a gap, but we forget how does that feel to a little child. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Steph: We just, we forget in everyday practice. Um, you know, when children come into in- inpatient care, and they might be sectioned in the middle of the night, and they don't even have any spare clothes or toothbrush. Oh, yeah.

And their social worker, with the dispersal of children in care, might be miles away to bring- Items which are needed for dignity and humanity. 

Philippa: But- And sometimes in inpatients, they're not even allowed them, are they? You know, I've worked in an inpatient unit, because the risk might be assessed that actually they can't have a toothbrush or a

You know, because what, what are they gonna do with it? And it's all those, those, those things. Mm. I remember working, um, with a young man, actually during COVID, and he, he needed to move, move placement. And, uh, I remember him saying to me, "It needs to have lots of cupboards," [00:09:00] where he was going, "My bedroom needs to have lots of cupboards."

Mm. And I was like, "Okay, well, I can make sure you've got lots of cupboards. Um, you know, just wondering w- what it is about cupboards that are, are, uh," Right ... uh, you know, important for you." And what, what he'd remembered was, is moving time and time again from refuge to refuge or from- Right ... home to home and, and the next place not having enough space for it.

So if he was m- moving into a refuge, it was like, "I've had to leave all my belongings because we couldn't take anything with us because we didn't, we didn't have anywhere to put, you know, my train or my whatever it was," and then moved again. And, and so the, the cupboard space became really, really important because that meant he could take everything he owned with him and e- everything he'd accumulated.

And I just think that it's, it's those kind of things that we, we forget, don't we? 

Steph: Mm. 

Philippa: That, that there's a loss every time we do something, even if it's for the right and best reasons. Um, yeah. I think, and going into an inpatient [00:10:00] setting, you literally can come from the police station, can't you? Or off the street, where, you know- Mm

we had children who were picked up off the street and just, because they were, uh, you know, having a psychotic break or something, and going into an inpatient placement was the right place for them to be, but maybe in the wrong way it happens. 

Steph: Yeah. And do you know, I, I, I so warm to your story because I think fundamentally we learn from stories, so I try to have a lot of stories and presentations, conversations.

And what you did in that beautiful, Karen Treisman says, "Curious not furious." Yeah. You were curious about the cupboards because it's that capacity to, to gently try to understand. I remember years ago, um, when I worked a lot more in adoption, and I used to provide consultation to an adoption team in the mental health service I managed.

And I remember the, the workers saying to us- They were really thrown. They'd gone to visit a child in foster c- [00:11:00] care placement identified as needing permanence, although they're now questioning the term permanence. And they went to see him, and then they kind of said to him, "We're still looking." And he got really cross with them, and he said, "Can you just leave now and start knocking on the doors, and I'm gonna watch you out the window that you're knocking and trying every door, 'cause I don't think you're really looking properly for me for a home."

And it just, it's these stories of children, because we have these beliefs of what they understand. And for him, these two people weren't looking properly, 'cause why on earth wasn't the mum and dad found, the forever mummy- Yeah ... and daddy people had talked about. Um, and it's just, I think, kind of trying to stay alongside young people and understand their stories, and how we can try to reframe them.

Or if we're at a privileged position of experience, how we help others in that- Mm ... that really valuable consultation role. So, it's a privilege really, isn't it? The, the opportunities we, we have, 'cause I [00:12:00] think our careers sound like a similar period- Mm ... that we span. We'll remember periods in time. We were talking about when attachment came to the fore, and now it's just an understood, isn't it?

Mm. The children's attachments, uh, and how they've been wounded and h- what the impact and legacy of that will be, and how- Yeah ... we might help them recover. 

Philippa: And I always think, you know, the privilege and the honor that families and children still come and offer you, uh, you know, a moment of trust. And, and, and- Yeah

you know, it's our job then to hold on to that, isn't it? And, and I guess help them feel that we are trustworthy and that we, we do value their story. And we can't fix everything. You know, sometimes we, we do have to say, don't we, "Actually, I really see that you need that, but that's not in my, you know, that's not in my remit.

That's not in my power." But also being able to hold that and say, "But it's shit, really. You should be entitled to that. That, that is a right thing," [00:13:00] rather than whitewash, "Well..." Mm. 'Cause we do lots of buts as professionals, or we can, can't we? "Yes, but. You can't go there, but you can go here." "Well, actually, I wanted to go there.

I wanted to do this." And, but I think that, that families offer you those, you know, that, that sliver of trust is, is to me, always, even now, after 30 years, I, I, I'm mesmerized by some kids who, you know, come into the therapy room and, or, or just allow me to show them that actually- It might be okay if we do this together today.

And they come back each week even when it's hard and, you know, for lots of adults, we'd say no and walk away, wouldn't we? Or- 

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm ... 

Philippa: you know, and families who've been judged and made to go through m- millions of assessments and again, put through a system- Yeah ... and they still come and ask for help, that's, that's hard, isn't it?

Steph: Oh, you, you got me smiling because you're absolutely right. Every time that you have a, an encounter with a young person or a family [00:14:00] where you might have just softened an experience or made it a bit easier or helped in some way, it, it's, it is just, just, yeah, I don't think I'll ever tire of what that feels like.

As you say, it's a privilege, but I guess I didn't wanna repeat that 'cause it's a phrase what can be overused probably, but it really is. I know, it's interesting actually, uh, my friend Colin McGuinness works with cared for children. His second book was It's a Privilege, uh, the title, and he is right. It is, it's such a privilege, um, if they, if they'll trust or there's a little bit of invitation.

Mm-hmm. I try to say that to students or those kind of new in practice, try to remember we, we, if we can, try to frame it that it's an invitation from them, you know, that- ' Cause so much power is taken, isn't it? You know- Mm ... kind of like, "I could return the same time each week. W- what would that feel like?" Or, "Would you like to let me know if that would be helpful?"

It's huge, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it, it really is. [00:15:00] Oh, oh, that other joy of, um, the wonderful joy if you're part of a system early in career and you're supporting them, and they tell you, "Oh, this went well." You know, and the family connected it. Because it's, it's... Yeah, there's nothing greater probably than trying to make a difference with, for people, is there?

Philippa: Absolutely. And it's that when they don't need you anymore, and I guess you get that in residential as well as you do in therapy or in social work- Mm ... when you've worked alongside, and you've s- you know, and, and you know, with my kids and that, I, you know, I'll say, "It's a happy sad. Yeah, you know, I'm sad that I won't see you anymore, but I'm really happy that you don't need to come and see me anymore."

And that's, and that's the same for families, isn't it? Mm-hmm. I've worked, uh, you know, with... It's called safeguarding now. W- in my day it was called child protection. Um, you know, and where they've put the work in, and you've supported that. And you can say, "Actually, I don't need to come anymore. I don't need to, to come and do this stuff.

You've, you've cracked it- Mm ... for now." Uh, that, that in itself was also that, you know, it's, it's... There's an amazing feeling [00:16:00] that goes with that, for the family- Mm ... and for yourself really, that you've had part of that journey, I think. 

Steph: Oh, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. It's layered, isn't it? It's just layered.

Isn't it? Whether it's you supervise somebody and or they reach out for supervision or, or they... You can see its benefit. I kept thinking of, 'cause your animation is so catchy, the Nellie McPhee film that I remember a family using that analogy, you know, that... And it is a good one, isn't it? 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Steph: The, yeah, that we, you're going and we didn't want you in the beginning kind of thing, but now you're there, and we, we really want you and- But, yeah, no, it's, it's...

We're so lucky. And do you know if I've got things going on in my own life, as we do from time to time, you know, you get to a certain age, there's loss, challenge, health, different things. You have your own children and they hopefully bring joy a lot, but there's, you worry about them in school and different things.

Mm-hmm. And I, I think if [00:17:00] you have public facing work where you help people, it's, it's a great way to remind you of the fortune you probably do have. 

Philippa: Mm. Absolutely. 

Steph: Um, yeah, it really is. Well, it's like, it's like a little bit of reminiscing, this, isn't it? We've both kind of- 

Philippa: No, that's good ... thinking the same thing.

I think it's good for people to hear that. One of the other things that I wondered about, I, we have talked about this before. I had a, a guest called Ruth Hales from the Isle of Wight, and she's from the YO, uh, the youth justice team over there. Um, but you talked about restorative work, so she's talked about it within a youth justice setting.

So when a, when a young person's- Oh ... committed a, a, you know, criminal act or something, they, they kind of go back and, and apologize. I wondered how you are involved in it. Is it the same way or is it different? 

Steph: Well, do you know, there's nearly always in the audience, um, Mark has contracts with, I think, possibly a third of the councils, you know, have practice models helpful- 

Philippa: Yeah

Steph: to, to have a framework for, for your practice, and everybody in the council understands that. So [00:18:00] for example, some councils have signs of safety, some have trauma responsive. I think Jersey has an interesting integrative model, 'cause I, I think that's valuable. So Mark delivers the restorative practice, so there's a two-day training course, and then follow-ups to see if people have embedded it.

Um, but there's some really thoughtful principles. But the time and the training allows people to think deeply, like the social discipline window, how- You know, not working with people can be quite neglectful. The not doing So 

Philippa: what's the social distance for somebody 

Steph: who doesn't know 

Philippa: anything 

Steph: about- Oh, yes.

I know that that did sound, didn't it, grandiose, like everybody would know it. But it's, it's a model and we work with practitioners and it, um... So some social work or families or in education feel done to, that they have to do something. That's the to. There's, um, another window for, when we do things for people and they, we perhaps don't empower them, don't give them the skills.

Uh, [00:19:00] not, neglectful practice. You know, um, there was, I, I trained as an independent reviewer. In a recent review I, I read the only services that were really consistent was, um, somebody from the children's home stayed in touch long after sh- they left care. Other than that, services were siloed, didn't really provide what they needed, and there wasn't sufficient support for parents who are both care leavers, no family privilege, no social privilege.

And I guess it was quite neglectful. You know, if you, if the state's their parent, they didn't have great-grandparents, and then the intervention came too late. So the not, I don't think services are always honest enough that things aren't provided as deeply or as long or as intensively or thoughtfully as some families need And especially probably care experienced adults.

You know, I, I think there's huge gaps in, in mental health services. Mm-hmm. You know, in th- therapy you see it time and again in [00:20:00] court proceedings where care experienced adults, uh, risk losing their children, and the court judgment will be they need therapy, but it won't happen in timescale. But that, that would be the window, and I spent a lot of time on the not, 'cause I always think whatever we provide, we must do it to the absolute best we can, and really think carefully about what- what's needed.

That's the, the least we can do if people have waited for a service. Um, and then the best would be with. That would be the social discipline with. And, uh, would have co-produced participation, lived experience valued, and pathways that are truly respond to the need of services set up. Um- 

Philippa: So 

the restorative justice, the restorativeness that you're talking about isn't, is not the same as kind of a young person who's maybe done crim- It's-

you know, maybe vandalized someone's garden and then goes back and says, "I'm sorry," and repairs it. It's more about- It's- ... a system. 

Steph: I g- I guess it's a set of tools, [00:21:00] beliefs, ideologies, frameworks to deliver services restoratively that repair harm, that work- Yeah ... truly with people. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, 

Steph: yeah. So it's definitely the same framework as restorative justice.

There's a lesson to me, isn't it, given I train a lot on this, that I should think of how I deliver it. And I guess it's that training course with all these methodologies, and hopefully at the end of it people, it becomes part of their practice to repair harm, as you say. Whether it's youth offending or children in care, because I think 

Philippa: if- What, what the repair would be done by us as the adults, by us as the system.

Steph: Yes. Yes, 

Philippa: you're 

Steph: right. 

Philippa: Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So rather than the young person doing the repair- It's, it's- ... we're doing it ... our 

Steph: service- 

Philippa: We're going to the scene ... 

Steph: absolutely. Um- You got that. Um, and I think, I just think it's a great model for councils because it's, it really makes you think deeply, you know, like are we truly working with people?

Philippa: Yeah. '

Steph: Cause... And that, well, that, that's one example. I [00:22:00] think it's 'cause I really like the social discipline window, and we do that on the day one to help people really start to think. And there's been standouts with it. For example, those, it's always generally the course is multidisciplinary, but you know how people end up in the table or s- Yeah

part of the circle their discipline, and then in group work they'll gravitate to their own discipline 'cause it's c- familiar. And there were a group of midwives and they wanted to use the time really thoughtfully to think about the mums who came to them after a child loss at, at birth- 

Philippa: Yeah 

Steph: Often wanted after traumatic birth, uh, home births or least intervention, yet their experience meant they had to have more.

And then if you think the social dini- discipline after trauma, that's done too. 

Philippa: Yeah, 

Steph: yeah. So they really... Oh, it was just so beautiful the pathway they used the training to develop, and they thought of who could co-produce and how, what, what they could perhaps think about as a, a [00:23:00] name for the pathway, so the women knew that there w- was a trauma responsive but restorative pathway.

And that all came from an exercise. What- Yeah ... you know, committed women, that they wanted to repair the harm for, for the mothers that were coming to them that, that knew they wanted to have a, a better birth experience, but the how. Mm. So it, it's fabulous training because you see people evolve and grow and, and it contributes- That 

Philippa: would be my question really- Mm

is can, can you do that? Can you do, really do the with in these big organizations? I work in quite a small, you know, private- Mm ... psychological service, so we've got quite a lot of flexibility. The, you know, there are obviously requirements that we have to fill, but actually working with families there's quite a bit of flexibility.

Although limited, it's very limited- Yeah ... given funding. But I suppose with big organizations with [00:24:00] big, um- You know, with big systems, big processes. Mm. Is true, is it truly able to do the with? 

Steph: Oh, what a brilliant question. And I think you're right, because the years of lecturing, I learned you need to have criticality.

Not criticize, but a critical thinking mind of looking, can we, are we really managing the with? And I think if we're honest, some services are. It's tokenistic, and some are on a really meaningful journey. What I would say, when we check in with everyone at the end of the training, I don't... There's rarely anyone not enthused about trying to make ripples.

Philippa: Yeah, yeah. 

Steph: W- And, and beautiful ideas that they've... For example, another one, because they, it was another area that really wanted to deeply embed the reunification practice, um, children going home to families. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Steph: And they said, you know, with children care we have [00:25:00] life appreciation days, lots of events. Um, if they're going to adopters, we hold days so they can hear from everyone.

We celebrate their lives. And then we have parents who come to contact centers week after week, bringing their own food, sometimes contributing to costs, when they've got all sorts of trauma and worry, and they're worried about public law outlying. And they said, "We, we don't do any celebration- Yeah ... when they go home."

And they wanted to change that. So I, I think that space allowed, and then the opportunities and the practice and the freedom to, to have a council saying, "We want to work in this restorative relational way," I think you can see these ripples, ripples of, of beautiful practice. In answer to the bigger, 'cause I never like to be negative, but I think we've gotta carry some positivity.

I think it can be harder, and you need it to be leadership down. [00:26:00] Yeah. So Mark often has the, the, the work with the leaders, leaders first. So they, they're allowing the freedom of movement- 

Speaker 3: Yeah ... 

Steph: and voice. Um, I think it also has to have that lived experience commitment for the ripples to really work. Yeah.

Because they're the ones who know if they're, they are really the voices who... Are they really improving a pathway after loss? Are they really celebrating u- reunification, which is the best outcome you could have for children if it's safe? Um, they're the ones who can tell us if we're getting it wrong or right, the- Yeah

people who've lived and are still living, 'cause it's a living experience, isn't it, after trauma and loss. Um, but I, I, I, yeah, I, I see change, and, uh, yes, I've, I've been lucky over the years to see some real embrace. And, but you're right, you, you make a really relevant point. [00:27:00] Probably the s- the smaller organizations I see and work with, it, it's quicker.

There's less bureaucracy. Yeah. There's the- Yeah ... there can be that real, "Yes, let's do that." Um, I saw it at the conference I delivered in a children's home, and they had a care leaver I understand really struggling with housing, and so they, they invested some of the, the money from the children's home revenue and bought a house.

Speaker 3: Oh, 

Philippa: wow. 

Steph: And, uh, i- it's not gonna happen in the council overnight, is it? No, no. It would have to go through chains and chains of funding agreement and equity. But 

Philippa: I guess- And risk assessment and all that sort of stuff, wouldn't it? You, and y- Yeah ... they'd be, they'd have grandchildren by time that came through 

Steph: I know.

But if you think about it, that corporate parenting, if I could... Um, really lucky trust funds were around, so I, I saved and my... She doesn't realize she's lucky. She thinks she might listen to this. She's hopefully studying so- social work, so she might listen. But I really squirreled, despite being a [00:28:00] single mum, and she's enough to, for a deposit for a house at 19 if she wanted.

Speaker 3: Yeah, wow. 

Steph: But I suspect there'll be a car, a fancier car before that. But it's her money. Um, but the relevance wasn't for me to show off, 'cause I surprised myself with it, and I think the trust funds did, did help. 

Speaker 3: Yes. 

Steph: The relevance was we would... Why, what that children's home did for that young person- 

Speaker 3: Mm

Steph: that real corporate parenting, we probably all would, wouldn't we, if we- Yeah ... You know, that's, uh, I would like it socially leveled for young people who've left care. I'd like them to have every, uh... There was a local, um, there was a big festival at the weekend, and one of the local councils, they arranged for free tickets for children in care.

And I, I love things like that. Oh, yeah. Why, why shouldn't we level it out? 

Philippa: Absolutely. I think the thing for me, one of 

the biggest things for me is, is, is that when they're starting to get to that, you know, to, to 16, 18, and then the pressure is to o- you know, is to social workers to [00:29:00] have the conversation around- Mm

"So are you moving to independence? Are you moving..." It's like, y- you know, these kids are emotionally, sometimes 10, 11. Would you be placing your 10, 11-year-old in a flat in, in the YMCA, in some... Why are you having this conversation? You know, we know that childhood now. We know the brain doesn't fully develop until people are 24, 25.

Why are we having conversations 10 years early about are you gonna live i- independently? You would not do that with your... Even with a typically developing child, you wouldn't be having a conversation, would you, at 16 around, "So, have you decided where you're gonna live? What you go..." Like, my son couldn't leave his room at 16, never mind do anything else.

Do you know what I mean? Y- it's that, those things are just not, not... Yeah. Th- there is no equitability in that, is there, at all? 

Steph: No. And- You know, they're now looking [00:30:00] into, um, the, the early deaths of, of children in care, which, it, it long overdue because safe and adult, child safe and practice reviews, they have year in, year out been care experience.

Young people and people in... The inequality is more likely to be homeless. The, um, range of, of inequities and challenges, and yet for years we've placed them in deprived areas where they're vulnerable, where they could be targeted for abuse, without family privilege, with limited social privilege. So I hope we see change.

I think I've seen... I think it's great the staying put, and I really like the staying close that some of the councils are early piloting, where some of the young people are having a chance to- 

Speaker 3: Mm ... 

Steph: to have a, really keep in contact with services, go out on trips, regularly meet up for food. And I just, we've got to kind of replicate the disa- fa- w- w- [00:31:00] replicate the privilege of family for the- Yeah

children who don't have that family privilege. Um. 

Philippa: And there are some great- They want it ... practices out there, aren't there? Mm. I mean, there's some great foster carers who, you know, who have the children or, or young people on staying po- or even just, like, if that doesn't work, say, "They're not going anywhere, they're staying, they're staying with us, they're part of our family, and, you know, whether, whether we remain a foster carer or not, you know, these kids are, aren't going anywhere," or, you know.

And there are i- i- some of the councils around here where they, they do do test flats, so the kids think, "Oh, I want a flat," and they'll do a test for a week, and then they're like, "Oh no, I don't want it." And they're, t- you know, so there are some of, there are some really great practices, I think, that, that go on.

Um. Mm. But it, it's, the, the funding isn't there, is it? I don't, I don't think it's the lack of will. Mm-hmm. I think often it's the lack of resources. 

Steph: It, it's the housing. Housing's- Yeah ... a big issue. Um, lots of issues. Sorry, the, my little dog came in. The, if you wondered where my eyes [00:32:00] went, but she seems happy now.

I know, do you know, I could talk to you all day. It's, it's really, I feel like it's flawed because I think at the heart of what we're talking about, isn't it, it's trying to do the best we can, have the best values and ethics. And I guess we'll use the experience to have- To share the most knowledge we have- Mm-hmm

in terms of connection, relationships, to build capacity in those who need it. And how- And as you say, the system Yeah ... the system, the carers, everybody. 

Philippa: Absolutely. And 

how does it differ to when you're traveling to Malta or Canada or South Africa or America? Uh, do, are, are, uh, are they facing the same kind of challenges that, that we face?

You know, what, what is it that you take from them, I'm guess- 

Steph: Oh, do you know, I'd absolutely love global work. Um, America and South Africa are on the wish list, so I like, I like that maybe I can take that as a sign. Um, global work- So much, just so much. I've learned so much from Malta. [00:33:00] Tiny island. I, I think I've been there eight, eight, nine, 10 times.

I usually present at the International Mental Health Conference in the spring, so plug for there, 'cause it's one of the best conferences I go to, and obviously not just 'cause I generally present. Um, but what I've learned is, is just so much from... Because for example, the children's homes currently in Malta, they've bravely extended the age.

In the UK with Ofsted, you, 18 you should leave. If you can have a little bit of grace, if you contact Ofsted and say, "Look, there's a hiccup. C- we'll need a couple of extra days," and you know, you can say on balance they've lived here eight years, so they're not gonna change at their 18th birthday and suddenly cause a risk.

But you can't have an adult stay beyond. And in Malta they've piloted it, and they've had no hiccups, children staying beyond 18. 

Speaker 3: Wow. That's fantastic. 

Steph: So, it is, isn't it? 

Speaker 3: Absolutely. 

Steph: So you're, you're just always learning, because, uh, I think, you know, [00:34:00] developmentally, as you say, they're not quite 18, so sometimes some changes are learning some brave, brave policies and practice from other places.

Um, and I think it's having that mindset. It's wonderful to be invited to another country for us to share, but I always go with a mindset that I'll probably learn as much- Yeah ... if not more than I'll gain. Um, yeah, the- there's always some, some significant learning. Do- there always is. And the, the... Because I suspect the difficulties, the, whether it's as you say, used to be child protection, and on my, my ma- I have a master's in child protection studies, and, and then they changed the, the term.

Um, sorry about dog. Um, I hope the dog can be edited out. But I guess we face in different countries safeguarding, um, displacement, children moving around care systems. I believe Australia's got the same issues as ourselves- Mm-hmm ... you know, in terms of the scarcity of places for children. And I just think we, we, we [00:35:00] learn and, and that helps us develop, and we, we take the best from other countries, and we return, and we try to- Mm

to share ideas. And the interest, if I weave things in training from another country, it always peaks for people, because we are so much bigger than a small island of the UK, aren't we? We, we- 

Philippa: Yeah ... 

Steph: there is so much where we can learn and evolve and, and just try to improve services. That's why I am excited for Canada.

We've come a bit full circle, haven't we? Um- 

Philippa: Yeah. So that, my next question is really is how, 

how did you get into this? How did you end up where you are? What, what, um- 

Steph: Well, I always thank Paul, but I think he might be finding it cheesy now, but I worked, I went to London as a nanny at 18. I trained as a nursery nurse.

And then I think I was about 19 and I worked in a nursery in a mental health unit, but it was closing. Ironically, it was the one Spike Milligan was in, and one of the Cray twins. Mm. Spike's pictures were on the wall. Um, I don't think [00:36:00] one of the Crays left any pictures, but Spike did. But in the period of closing, 'cause it was like an old asylum, I'd just been offered this agency job, worked in the nursery and it was closing.

They said you can go to a, a children's inpatient unit in London. Um, and I, I did. I, I had, didn't know, you know, I was a nursery nurse, I didn't really know much about it, but I went as a healthcare assistant. Absolutely loved it. I loved the learning opportunities. The young people were just incredible. And my manager was so caring, Paul, and I just wanted to do more.

Speaker 3: Mm. 

Steph: I didn't think the nursing was for me because I'm not, I'm not squeamish, but I, I don't know that I could do the needly-type things to people. So, uh, I trained in social work, and then probably that five years of working before the degree, I think you then, perhaps I, I got into management quite quickly, managing the mental health service for children in care, and that felt just right because I remained [00:37:00] passionate about mental health services.

And then during university I worked in children's homes in Sunderland, and still have some contact with young people. Not, not... You've always gotta follow the channels. Mm. Um, but it, they would, years later, kind of get in touch and it was just wonderful to hear young people were doing okay. Um, which I'll come back to that thread, 'cause that's one of the...

I, I made a film with young people who, who grew up in care. Uh, Social Work England funded it, which I'm so passionate about. Um- The mental health service I managed for 10 years until public sector cuts. I, I always learn... Going as a lecturer helped me understand it. The time we build our bank is, some of the money came from public sector, so quality protects, I don't know if you remember that, and choice protects.

Yeah. 

Philippa: Absolutely. 

Steph: Yeah. The 

Philippa: Victoria Plan BA that came out of... It, it was 

Steph: that- Yeah ... that 

Philippa: one. 

Steph: Yeah. Improved quality. Yeah. But the money led to better provision, but then the [00:38:00] cuts after, I think, 10, 11, 11 years, even though it, we won three national awards, the services were cut. So that, I'd present, started to present nationally then, I think that was 2002 onwards, so it's nearly 25 years.

I, I was very young when I started social work. Um, and then the university asked me to apply for a role. I'd done a couple of conferences with them, presented a, a couple of keynotes. Then I lectured for a few years, started some publishing, and more presenting. And probably, I w- I was doing a PhD with uni, and probably personal circumstances then led me to take redundancy.

And a few other roles, but probably that's the bulk- Yeah ... was the lecturing, the, the children's mental health. I've, I've loved things since then. I've, I worked as a head of qual- practice and quality in a [00:39:00] council, um, director in IFA, and, and then more recently, more independent, a mixture. So I've had some great opportunities, but the last few years I'd like to belong, maybe a swan song where I belong.

So I think you could create more as a, as a team. We sh- we shall see. We'll s- I, I would like to do another 10 years. Um, 54, so I was quite young when I started out. 30 years of social work nearly. Next... Is it this year or next year it's 30 years? Which apparently we only manage eight years, so you and I, Philippa, are- 

Philippa: To...

You know, when I listen to your thing, I was a nanny in London at 18. Was 

Steph: you? 

Philippa: Yeah. No way. Literally, yeah. It's like- And I also went to work in a psychiatric hospital in, uh, just, uh, uh, in North London. 

Steph: Did you? Yeah. We've lived parallel lives. We'll have to 

Philippa: keep in touch. I know. Honestly, yeah, I went to a place called, it was called Huntercombe at the time.

Have you? No, no, Huntercombe is where I worked later on. It was called [00:40:00] Harper Bury Hospital in Radlett. 

Steph: I was, I was at Horton Hospital. 

Philippa: Yeah. So yeah, so quite similar. Yeah. 

Steph: Yeah. 

Philippa: And then went, I went to university in, um, Hertfordshire So I went to Hertfordshire University to do my social work. So yeah, quite a similar...

But you've gone into management, and I've kind of... I'm a very poor manager, uh, Steph. I'm very poor. 

Steph: Well, I, I think, do you know, I think it's whether you make a difference. 

Philippa: Yeah. And I use- I don't mind mentoring. I think there's a difference- Mm-hmm ... between mentoring and manag- the bureaucracy, um, I'm not very good with.

Steph: I, I can understand that. I th- I can understand that, and I think they're different times. I, I've probably got nostalgic for the 10 years I, I managed a team. 

Philippa: That's good, though. So I think that- Well, how, how do you think social work's changed over, over our time? 

How do you think social work's changed? 

Steph: I th- I try to be really balanced.

I think there's some [00:41:00] quality improvements. I do think there is. There has to be. Um, I think there's some councils and settings where it is encouraged to be therapeutic and creative. I do, do think there's improvements. I-

I, oh gosh, that was such a good question. I, um And I, I actually think that there's quality and opportunity for training's increased. You had to be really specialist to get opportunities. You know, I've been lucky that some of the places I've worked have funded lots of study. I think it's about 15 years part-time.

The uni made me always put the letters after, after, uh, my name. Um, but I think there's a bit more equity. I think some really interesting training. There- there's more equity. You know, lots of people get the opportunity to, to do PACE training that we, we both did, and that's great, isn't it? You know, standardized quality, like the restorative practice.

So where I, I think it was limited, I remember having to do, uh, an es- a competitive essay when I worked in one organization to [00:42:00] access post-grad training, and I was so thrilled my essay passed and I was allowed. And now I guess they, they probably had to with limited funds, but I think I get a sense that there's a good, good training, and I think supervision's improved to...

in some settings. Uh, but I, but I am lucky. I've, I've had s- great supervisors in the past and, um, ac- accessed some good training and some opportunities to really drive services. So yeah, 30 years has, uh, not been like- Mm ... it, it, 

Philippa: it's- I wo- yeah. I suppose I wonder if social work has changed in the way that certainly in the core of it, that there's a lot more around case managing rather- Oh, yeah

than the doing. You know, I- Yes ... remember going into houses, cleaning the houses, you know, getting the skip delivered, emptying it all out, y- you know, and redoing it, taking kids [00:43:00] out for the day, cook- Mm ... going in and doing breakfast with so... you know, to, to go alongside, you know, parents who maybe had low mood or depression and, you know, couldn't get that up in the morning or couldn't get established in a routine.

You know, I remember going into houses and, and just doing it with them. I think lots of social workers might like to do that now, but they are so limited by the unbelievable amount of paperwork and bureaucracy that, that goes with it. I don't think the caseload's changed. We still ha- well, I still had a very high caseload, but I didn't, I don't feel that I had the amount of paperwork, the amount of bureaucracy that, that social workers have to do nowadays.

I could literally go and cook someone's dinner for them and, you know, collect the kids from school with them and the... I think the, the... I don't know certainly, but that's what I feel is that hands-on literally- [00:44:00] The reason social work was invented has almost- Yeah ... gone in some ways 

Steph: You make me smile again, 'cause it reminds me of favorite...

I used to love making a roast dinner when I worked at a children's home. 

Philippa: Yeah. 

Steph: Be- because you, you... it's many things, not just cooking a meal, isn't it? 

Philippa: Absolutely. 

Steph: You're modeling, connecting. Do you know, though, I, you're ahead of me, because I don't recall cooking with a family, and it would've been lovely. So you sound like you w- I...

If I'd needed a social worker, I think I'd have wanted you. 

Philippa: Maybe not, but yeah. I mean, I had a great manager and a great... You know, when I started, I had a really, really good manager named Richard, and I had three very, very experienced, uh, well, two s- well, two are a social worker and one was a support worker, and they were so super experienced and so super kind that actually they let me...

Again, nowadays I think y- you're thrown in at the deep end, and you just have to get on with it. I mean, I thought I was in at the deep end when I started, but I literally wasn't. Do you know? I mean, they allowed me that time [00:45:00] to, to, to flourish and to learn and to, uh, and to, and to be, and were very, you know, very generous with their knowledge of giving to me.

So I think that enabled me to be along... I guess it's that where we started a- about being alongside a family. That didn't mean that for some children, you know, we still didn't have to make har- ha- you know, hard decisions, and they might, might not have remo- stayed at home. But I think I had more, as a social worker, I had way more scope to be with the family and really know them.

Steph: Yeah. You 

Philippa: know? 

Steph: Do you know you've given me such a lovely thought, that we talked before we went on air of, of who this was for, and do you know the great privilege, I said that I made a, a film with some care experience adults I'd known over the years and I'm s- still in contact with, which is, is wonderful to, to know they're doing well and albeit life can have [00:46:00] its challenges if you've got a hard start.

It, it's just a, is so good to know they're all okay. If anybody was listening to what me or yourself who we've touched their lives anywhere, I think, um, I'd probably want to say that I still think about them and, and that they meant an awful lot and still do. 'Cause the, their stories and their, the opportunity to be part of their lives were some really powerfully important good parts of my 30 years.

Philippa: Absolutely. I can still remember the names of all, certainly in those... I worked in child protection for two and a half years, and I can still remember the names of all the children, uh, that I... Yeah, because they, I was really learning. Their, those families taught me- a lot. They taught, you know, and I am who I am now because I worked with those families, and wasn't always easy.

And like I say, some children did, you know, have to end up being, [00:47:00] living with foster families or, you know- Mm ... extended family members because for whatever reason, you know, their, their family of origin were finding it tricky to care for them. But, uh, oh, you know, there was a grace in that that I think that they hopefully gave me the information and the, the experience that helped going forward, you know?

And yeah, I, I, yeah, I remember them all. It's tr- more- Mm ... tricky when I go into the hospital and therapy because the turnaround and the impact is- Yeah ... is less. Yeah, 

Steph: you're right. 

Philippa: But certainly those two and a half years for sure. 

Steph: Do you know there's a real humility there, Philippa, 'cause that w- we've gained but I, I hope if any of it was wounding, you know, for the, because we do the absolute best we can.

Children are moved when it's not right and- But I hope if it was wounding that the, things are better now [00:48:00] 

Philippa: Yeah ... 

Steph: you know, for anyone we've, we've been involved with. 

Philippa: And I 

Steph: hope- 

Philippa: I suppose, yeah. I suppose I hope that people felt valued even if I- Yeah ... I made a decision that they didn't want me to make, or we had to do something that, that I hope...

And even now that the families I work with, that they know that I value them as people even if I don't... You know, even now there are families- Yeah ... and we, I, you know, that I might say, "Actually, I think that's, that's a little bit tricky for your child. You might need to do something a little bit..." You still might have to have those conversations or, you know, or supervisees now or practitioners.

I think there's a value in a relationship, isn't there? Whatever that relationship is, and we should always hold that at the center of what we're doing. 

Steph: Yeah, definitely. Definitely there's absolute value. The, uh, whatever, I hope their experience was as humanizing as possible- 

Philippa: Yeah ... 

Steph: in circumstances that are [00:49:00] really dehumanizing, aren't they?

Philippa: Absolutely. 

Steph: Sometimes courts, services, poverty, mental health, domestic abuse, all of those things, we can just hope that what we try to be alongside them is as human as possible. 

Philippa: Absolutely. I think, I think we have systems that are... You know, even for adopters or, you know, foster cares, you're assessed all the way through to say, "Are you gonna be good enough?"

And then you have the most challenging of children because of their e- early experiences, and then you're judged because you're not parenting them in the way that... You know? Mm-hmm. And how would anybody know how to parent that level of trauma? You know, I've been doing it 30 years and, and I still don't know how to do it.

You just... But I'm more confident in thinking, "Let's give this a go." You know? Yeah. Maybe let's try this. 'Cause you don't know what, what the outcome is gonna be. But when you've been assessed through the way, or birth families who are reunified with their children, how scary must that [00:50:00] be? Because you've then still got authorities involved, haven't you?

And what happens if you make a mistake? Are they gonna take them away again? And whilst we need to protect children, we also need to know and acknowledge how hard it is for the adults around them at times, I think. 

Steph: Mm-hmm. Definitely. And all, I, I think since I've become a parent it's- My compassion's grown, you know?

Mm. 'Cause the- I naively thought I'd be a, a amazing parent. Is that terrible? Me too. We're 

Speaker 3: terrible. 

Steph: My children probably do need to listen to this just to, just to, to put me in my place. Um, you know, I, I hope I've been as good as I could be, but it, it's hard, isn't it? Absolutely, 

Philippa: yeah. 

Steph: It is hard. It's tiring, it's hard.

You, you think about them all the time, and you weigh things up, and you're just trying to do your best. And sometimes the structures in society ... Uh, when I lectured, that was really helpful for me, that we're very individualistic in society. We blame parents, we blame ... And actually, sometimes the [00:51:00] structures, if you're a parent where your child has additional needs, we all know that schools don't, with all the best will in the world, don't always have the capacity for the reasonable adjustments.

Mm. Um, if you ... It's just a lot, isn't it? The structures, whether it's childcare, education, health, they're, they're not always set up in the best way. Just your public 

Philippa: transport. Yeah. How d'you 

Steph: get 

Philippa: somewhere? You know, I live- I know ... in quite a rural place. If you don't have a car, you've had it really. You're not going anywhere.

Mm-hmm. Only, only once a day, and you can't get back. Uh, you know, it's, yeah, it's tricky. Um- 

Steph: Yeah, you're right. The structures, kind of adding housing instability and different things like that, really hard, isn't it? 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Steph: Mm. We do have to do that walk a mile in their shoes, really try to be deeply empathic and care and

Oh, do you know I found this so energizing. Yeah. I was tired. You know, it's been a ... It's hot in Durham at the moment. Yeah. I think you were saying it's hot. [00:52:00] 

Philippa: And I- I just want to say that when this goes out, we are- ... at the moment, this is the hottest day of the year at the end of May. I know we're not going out till probably the end of June, but we've, this is the hottest day of the year.

Steph: Well, it's probably raining then, and they'll think- Yeah ... "What are they talking about? These two middle-aged women will probably still be heating themselves up." 

Philippa: Yeah. Just having a hot flush right now. Add that into this heat wave, and it's not very, not very good at all. But 

Steph: y- I was driving and thinking, you know, should I

Why, why am I always volunteering for things? But I was so delighted when you asked, um, because it's just ... I've, I've totally loved talking, but it, it's just great to still have that, that chance to enthuse and feel- Yeah ... the energy about the trying to make a difference. Absolutely. And I feel like you've got that too, so it's been, it's been a real joy talking 

Philippa: to you.

Yeah, and your experience is just super amazing, so maybe when you've been to Canada you can come back on again and tell us all about- Well, I'd love that ... Canada. That would [00:53:00] be, um- That would be 

Steph: such a treat. 

Philippa: Yeah, absolutely. That would be fantastic. So thank you so much for your time, and we'll put links- onto websites or whatever at the end of the podcast if people want to, um, click on or, and, or find out about any of the things that you've talked about or any of the people you've talked about, then they can, um, click onto that.

So thank you so much, Steph, for your time. Oh, I've 

Steph: loved it. Thank you