Thank you. Oh, awesome. Maybe, Rob, you want to play Moral of the Story? Okay. But you want to be authentic and sign your own CDs. Yeah. All now we get to listen to you. Here we go. I haven't heard this song in a while, actually. I was like, I've been re -listening and it takes me back and it's good. It's like we'll get in the head space. Aww. Yeah, I'm gonna play it at my Brooklyn Bowl show, my album release show coming up, and I'm like, I gotta rehearse. Oh Wait. Wait, where's my? Oh, wait. Then I can be like. Just kidding. The aquarium. yeah. It's the moral of the story, babe. No, it's OK. It matches the scene where it was used. Yeah. We can all dance. I can only hear it through your headphones. Sorry. No, but it's like I but I can hear it enough to be like, I know where they are in the song it for you. No. No, it's all good. is the best part. you That's so good. you So real life, I want to know how many ashes we're hearing there at the end. Like how many layers of ash are on top of you. OK, we're recording, right? Yeah. OK. All right. All right. Now serious. I'm just kidding. But that was a real question. How many ashes are there? I honestly, I mean, we've recorded that in 2019. Could have been even the end, because that song came out in 2019. It could have been in the end of 2018. There must have been like, boom, minimum 10 layers of vocals there, because we were trying to get sort of this like, anthemic sort of like choir feeling. Yeah. love that song, I really do. I'm just hearing it, listening to it with you guys. Especially not having listened to it in a while. We did a really good job. Yeah, there's a reason why that song, I feel like, can stand on its two feet or after all this time. Yeah, it's so special. Thanks for playing it. good. Well, Ash, welcome to the Sad Songs podcast. We're so happy to have you. Yay, welcome, Ash. Bah bah bah! Thanks for having me. so honored. I love you gals. we feel the same way about you. So we wanted to start off because so many times you listen to songs and the interpretation that you have is entirely different than the artist meant it to be. So we were listening for this big breakup song for... the second to all the boys movie and we knew it was gonna be big and we love breakup songs anyway so we're like we have to find the best breakup song possible and Laura found this song she pitched it for our production so Laura what did you think this song was about when you first heard it? Well I obviously felt the heartbreak I definitely thought it was definitely a sad song, clearly a breakup song, which was all the things we needed. But my without knowing, which I later, you we later found out the meeting, but I thought I was just, you know, I didn't know it was necessarily a divorce, but the lawyer part was like, huh, I have questions. But the fact that the lawyer and the mother were like, where did you find this guy? The curious person in me is like, what did he do? To bring on legal ramification. Yeah. So true. didn't know, this is like, I feel like this is really special for me because I don't think I knew the full story or like the behind the scenes of you discovering the song and finding it and finding the right moment for it in that movie. that's just like, yeah, this is so special for me. Cool, like a little window into your world. I mean, yeah, you definitely. heard that it was a breakup song. It's at its core, it's a breakup song. It's just, it's a little bit more intense in that it's like the ending of a marriage, but. Yeah, the lawyer line in particular I was really nervous about because I was like I knew my fan base was young and like most of these girls that probably listen to me are nowhere near even ready to be thinking about getting married and so I was like this feels like we're sticking our neck out in a way like we're being really honest and are we gonna sort of like cut off some of our audience and Still to this day people will be like that's their favorite line of the song and somehow find a way to like Connect with it like even with it being so specific But yeah, my attorney my attorney was so cutthroat she was like This guy sucks Where did you find him? Like that was an authentic that was a verbatim. My lawyer was like, where did you find this guy? That's amazing. Did you give her a percentage of the songwriting? You're like, I've paid her enough. Yeah, I'm sure. a fortune on her anyways. Well, it's that you say that because, you know, as music supervisors, sometimes lyrics help and hurt and sometimes being specific is not great. Right. Like, and I think what I liked about this song was the chorus is some mistakes get made. It's all right. It's OK. Like we're going to move on. Right. Some people make bad choices. And the generality of that message I really identified with. But. Yeah. get granular with the verses because the chorus had sort of like a more overarching sort of vague theme to it. No, I think we should. I I think what I like, and I think when we are hearing so many songs and listening, the fact that your song is so authentic and that it's so real and you are speaking to your human emotion, like your actual experience that happened to you, and we can feel it, like your performance, everything like. That's why we're like, whoa, what is happening? I have to know. Just as a viewer and having your theories and all that. But yes, I would love to hear more about the verses. Yeah, well, mean, so what does this song mean to you? Is it even a sad song to you? Maybe it's like a triumphant song to you. I think that it's sad that I was in the position that I was in and I think that if I think back to that, like that writing session when I was in the room explaining what had happened with, you know, these two other writers that are now such good friends of mine, I, that we were right on the heels of the divorce. I don't... I don't think it was finalized yet. I think I was still in the midst of the sort of chaos of it all. And so I'm sitting in a room with these writers and I'm just kind of like, yeah, and like, so, hey guys, here's my life update. I'm getting a divorce. And know, Casey Smith, one of the writers being like, yes. Like. Unfortunately, that's awesome for us because we're gonna write like a killer song about it. But I remember feeling really like liberated in the writing process because it was like this is... I remember thinking... Maybe no one ever hears this song, but right now it is required of me to put this to paper. Like, these words, these melodies record this because right now this is what's truly relevant to my world and... I think that's a special thing about when you're listening to your favorite artists, like, often times. If they're not just like, I'm out here trying to write a hit song, if they're really just recounting what's happening in their lives, it's like, these songs are little snapshots of emotions and circumstances and life chaos and joy and madness and trauma. And this was... This divorce was incredibly traumatic for me and I was in a very toxic, miserable relationship. So yeah, that was a long -winded way of saying, yes, sad, but also, you know, that's... It's all right, it's okay. It's like, that's how life goes. Life is not fair, life is not easy, and the sooner you swallow that pill, the better off you are, you know? So, yeah, that's kind of where I was at. after hearing it, making it, it being out in the world? you feel like, I don't know. Healed? Yeah, yeah. absolutely, yeah, total catharsis. I think I was at first, once I set aside, okay, that was very therapeutic to write, once I listened to the recording back, I was like, this is, I think this is the best thing I've ever written. Like really standing behind that and then putting it out and for a year. that song did nothing. I mean, I don't think it even had a million streams on Spotify in the first year. And I remember thinking, like my best song no one cares about. The best thing I've ever done, everyone could care less. And I was fully ready to like, kind of be done with music. Cause I was just like, well, if that's... the best thing I can do and no one gives a shit, then what am I doing here? Or like, I'll just keep writing, but for myself or, and then y 'all put that song in to all the boys and day one, it had kicked up to like, it did like 150 ,000 streams in one day or something. And I was like. streams in one day. 425, I believe. Yeah, in the first 24 hours that the film was out. Okay insane cuz I remember that happening and me being like, ah, I called my manager and I was like I think Something is happening Something very strange and then like within a few days it was streaming a million streams in a day I don't know you might you might have all like the actual stats or something but We got some at one time, but I don't know where it is. Yeah, we looked in our emails and I think we got like an update like day two, right, with what had happened in the first 24 hours. And then I remember the next week we were like, and now it's on star 98 7 or mix name or whatever it's called these days. and I still remember I was and we hadn't met you yet, but we were fans already. And then we just like fell in love with you more because I remember the video of you listening to your song on the radio and it was so lovely and so authentic and so I was such a baby. I totally cried. celebrate the good, so much shit in life, celebrate the good stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah, well and now that like I guess you kind of have context to like why that would have maybe meant even more to me, know, feelings so passionately about a song that's so personal, you know, and then people saying, yes, this is great. Like we do love it. Like, okay, I was right. Like I was right, this was great. And yeah, just the launch pad that, you know. y 'all gave this song such an opportunity. remember Phineas calling me because he was like, oh yeah, moral of the story is going to be in this movie. he obviously was an executive producer on that song, or like added production to it. And he loves me and he's just invested. he was like, I'm going to go check out the clip of where that song is in the movie. And he watched it. And obviously, it's our girls singing. bringing the lyrics to camera and he immediately called me and he's like, this is gonna change your life. And I was like, awesome. That'd be great actually, I'd love for it to change my life. So yeah, I could never thank you two enough and so grateful for you and so grateful for the song and yeah. I mean, you made the song, we only heard its greatness and wanted to amplify it, So let's go back to the songwriting process a little bit because you come in, you're like, you guys, like, I'm going through this horrible thing. So did you come in with the, that's all right, that's OK? Or was there someone in the session who was like, you know what, let's spin this positive. Or how does a song transform from. Mmm. from an idea to a chorus, from sadness to reflection, stuff like that. I think I was kind of joking around a lot in the studio. Like, you know how you sort of, a coping mechanism with dealing with, you know, pain or trauma is like, ha ha. And, and he's a horrible person, but ha ha. Like you just kind of are like, cry laughing through it, through it. And I remember. one of the writers, she was just like transcribing everything I was saying as I was sort of processing and telling her about the lawyer and telling her about my grandparents. I was telling her the story about, you know. my ex and I were painting the outside of our house. And I remember thinking, you know, this is my grandparent's grandparents told me that they did this. And yet we were fought like a horrible fight. And I was like, gosh, we. We took this, what was supposed to be a really beautiful memory and just like ripped it to shreds and I was like, wow. So I was telling her that and she was transcribing and I think I, at some point it said, you know, well the moral of the story is that, you know, you make choices that are... maybe sometimes not the right choice for you and that's all right and we move on and we're better for it and I think she was like, my god, moral of story is such a good little tagline to end on and I'm pretty sure Casey Smith, she was the one who found the, in the end it's better for me. That's the moral of the story and we were like, well there's the song. That's it. Yeah, so. Had you written with Casey Smith and Noah Conrad before? Was this one of the first sessions? This was my first session with Noah, which as y 'all know, Noah would go on to produce the second song that I did with y 'all in the next movie. Yeah. a tearjerker. We're like, want to come in and write for this really sad moment? Well, which was so cool because like we actually got to like watch it. That was so that was such a special experience. So Noah and I went went on to work with each other a bunch. That was our first time initially and I think Casey and I had written a handful of times and I remember my first session with her. her asking me about my husband and our relationship. She's like a digger. You know she's like, give me fuel for a song. And I remember telling her that he doesn't make me laugh. I never laugh. And that was before the divorce. And that was like, that is the tiniest, least important. reason why I had to leave, you know? But I just remember her being like, gosh, I can't imagine being with someone who doesn't make me laugh. And it was the first time I had heard someone else be like, that's not, you probably don't belong with each other. And I was like, no. But, so I don't know, when I went into that session with her and I was like, okay, I'm getting a divorce, she was probably like, woo! your subsequent relationships did they make you laugh now? Was that like a requirement going into new relationships? that's such a good question. I've never had it on the list, but yes, like I recently just got engaged and I know, yay, she's so pretty. I'm so, so happy. I just got back from touring the wedding venue this morning. But yeah, he cracks me up. He's a absolute goofball and so, I mean, just like accents and made up languages and jokester and yeah, he cracks me up. And it's such an im... Yeah, you do. I know. Y 'all have to come to Nashville. Mm -hmm. song queens. The in love songs. don't know. Love songs. will say his band writes some really sad songs if you need more, so. Always. Ooh, what's his band? Shout out. band is, ah, the Brooke and the Bluff, shout out. We actually, it's cute and then we can keep talking about sad songs, but we met on tour, his band opened for me in 2022 on my headline tour. And it was the last day of tour and I was like, I like you. And he was like, I like you too. yeah. Anyways. So back to the sadness. I know. No, right? No, it's the balance of life, right? The sadness and the joy, and you realize the other because you've experienced one. So we... Whoa, that was like accidentally so deep. So profound, that's what we're here for. We actually worked on a different movie where we had a director specifically say, I want to reflect both the joy and sadness of life. And we were like, my God, we love this. We're like, here's our saddest song. And here's a song that makes us really happy. And they ended up in the film. anyway, yeah. So I didn't make it up. I need like a, I selfishly need like a playlist from you too. I feel like you would have such good playlists. Some Laura Lindsay mixtapes, you know. that. Yeah. That I mean, I'm sure you did it too. But yeah, I mean, that was all our friends would always ask us before we ever did this job. Can you be me a playlist or, you know, back in the day, mixtape? So you voluntarily made one for them, whether they wanted it or not. yes, eventually. But then it would be like, I want that again. You're like, sure. yeah. seedy and sharpie like mixtape one? tape every semester in college I made for and I copied it I repeated it at least like five times because there were about five of us in the friend group who needed a copy. And recording off the radio like live. Yeah, I worked at the radio station at the time, so I went CD to tape, but yeah, the cassettes, I still have them. And they all had like a special name, and you would just, like the most honored spot was the first song of Side 2. I don't know, that's what I did. What'd do? Mine was always like number three. Okay. Like get into it, and then, you know, like you gotta do energy. Side 2. Yes. So also like... If you knew you wanted to listen, like you were, I don't, I mean, I don't know how much you listen to cassettes, right, like if you really, like if you wanted to hear the song, it was easier to find, right, if it was like the first song on either side. it was also like, then you could just rewind and get to it. And you were also like, if you were sick of side one, you were like, yeah, side two, like you, I don't know, anyway, we can, that's a whole other podcast. much. Did you have like a Walkman and everything? I think we should bring Walkmans back. I was in the seedy era. Cassettes were pretty much on their way out when I was entering the scene of listening or like where I could buy my own music to listen to. But I had one of the seedy Walkmans and it would just be constantly skipping because it was like every step. was that an improvement? And bigger too. And in your car, every speed bump, you're like, wait, the Fuji is like, because you would plug it into the cigarette lighter. Yes, exactly. Yes! I have one of those! So cool! Well... No, no, no. I had one of those. Those were so nifty. I remember... Yeah, I had an old 2004 runner. And I had one of the cassette. You stick the cassette in and then you plugged your phone into the cassette......ox cord thing? I don't know what those were called, but... I would buy a cassette Walkman if you sent me a cassette mixtape. pretty sure you can't, I like, I can't even put a CD in my computer, like I can only make a mix with. I know they stopped making CD players in cars too, but. I know, it's so funny, because I'm literally all my CDs are here, and I'm like, I can't even play these. Like... There are people that do. But yeah, mean, because we got sent some merch of like a cassette tape. yeah. Can you show us? where am I gonna, I can't even play this. It makes me feel like it feels like Britney Spears. Like the last time I held one of these, it was a Britney Spears record or like a Spice Girls record. Oh, both very good. Wait, can you show us it up close and tell everybody when the album's coming out? sure, oh yeah, wow, well played. Well played, Ash. Yeah, this one's one of the signed, I signed 500 CDs in there. But. doing it herself. I really did sign this myself. Yeah, a little ASMR. She's very Wilson, September 6th. If only you were more photogenic -ish, I mean. my gosh. mean, half of my face is covered by shadow, so. mean, right there you look very Taylor Swift. saying. yeah. Like with the... It almost looks like a mask from this perspective. know. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Which is cool too. Yeah, you look stunning. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yay. it was really fun to actually, I was a little bit like, I can't believe I have to sign 500 of these. And then as we were doing it, we were opening them up, taking the little slip out, signing it. And it was just like so gratifying. And like, I felt so connected to each. Like every fan that gets this is like, I held this. I feel very connected to it. Anyways. back in the day to have that access. Ash, touch the scene. I know, right? Whoops. Well, speaking of the new album, you graciously sent it to us ahead of time. And it is beautiful. And there so many songs, and I want to sit with it more. But the one that popped out to me the most, which I had told you, is I Want to Love You, But I Don't. And it just, another sad song, but it's so, so good. And I purposely didn't read what you wrote on Instagram, but you did, right, Lindsey? Yeah, I saw you post like, new song, and I won't. Yeah. Kind of saying what it was about. Because I thought it was about leaving one romantic relationship and going into a new one, who's your fiance. Mm But I guess there's another meaning to it. If you want to dive in and tell us. Yeah, well I feel like this is like the epitome of a sad song for me because it's not even about losing someone else but like losing yourself and for me this song was like a a letter to self of I just was in a place where I really didn't like who I was or who I felt I had become. I had a really distorted view of myself. And I had so told the world how confident I was, how authentic and real I am, and I would be preaching love yourself. And meanwhile, I was going through this period of time that I was just so, there was so much like self -loathing going on underneath the surface that I didn't even like really know was there. Until I did this like exercise where my therapist had me like write a letter from like, Ashlyn the human, the writer girl to Ash the artist, performer, public, you know, person. And then I wrote a vice versa, from Ash to Ashlyn and they were so savage, so mean, scathing, scathing report of self, just on both sides, like... Ashlyn to Ash was like... You, all you care about is attention and you abuse my vulnerability to leverage it into like popularity and blah blah blah and ashes like I'm so underappreciated I work my ass off and you have that beautiful home because of me you all these things ratted off this list of the reasons why you know you have the life you have and you don't appreciate me and I just had no idea, I hated myself. And so that was so therapeutic and I wanna love you but I don't was the song that kinda came of those letters and I was like I should appreciate you, I should love you. You get one body, you get one soul, you get one mind, and I didn't want it. So, so grateful to not be in that place anymore, but writing that song was definitely a part of the healing journey, you know? But yeah. I will definitely go back and listen with that perspective. Is verse one Ashlyn to Ash and verse two is Ash to Ashlyn or it's all of it? It's pretty intertwined, yeah. I'm sort of singing about being in this grand ballroom and all these people around me, but I'm just like, at the end of the day, you're so stuck with yourself. And was like, the lyrics, like, I'm naked on the dance floor next to you. Wherever I go, I can't get away from you. So yeah, it's kind of intertwined all over that song. And, you know, at the end of the day, I wanted other people to be able to relate to it. So, you know, I don't go, I'm not like, I'm singing about myself right now, you know? So I definitely have a level of like, there's some more vague, you know. Yeah. Well, and that's what's so great, too, because I mean, I on the level was like, I mean, because that's heartbreaking, too. And if you're in a relationship you're not supposed to be in and you know that it's not serving them or yourself, like to walk away is still so hard. So on the surface or just that's where I went with it. But I love hearing that. And I know you're you're right. It's like we are so hard, harsh to ourselves. Right. Like and it's so hard. think women as women too like to unprogram or deprogram that like, yeah, I know. Cause we look at other people and especially like with social media, we just like, these people are doing so they're killing it. And like, we all are walking around with, you know, these feelings and thoughts and imposter syndrome and you know, all that. But I'm glad that you. I'm glad you had that exercise and like got on the other side of it. I mean, what were some of the other things that helped you get through that? I mean, I canceled the tour and because I knew I felt like I had no business being a role model or an example or a public person when I was in that frame of mind. I was like, I don't want to rub off on a soul because I'm not okay. So I knew that I needed to sort of like... hide away and get right before I was processing it and writing about it. I think some big things is just separating myself from my whole identity was my career. Especially after, know, moral of the story from that moment on, from the moment it was in that movie on. my career was like whirlwind. And it was incredible. tell people it's so fun to be successful. It really is. But there's a lot that is attached to it. And if you're not prepared or you don't have a really good therapist, things can get sort of... confusing and out of control and so just separating myself from my career for a little bit and like You are not your job I'm I love what I do So much of the world sees me through a lens of like that's a music artist and so you start seeing yourself through their lens instead of like I'm a daughter. I'm You know Fiance, I'm a friend, I'm a sister. For a while, none of that counted and all I was was a music artist and that was a, I just needed to like find proper boundaries with that. And I garden and I bought power tools. I'm really good with power tools. Come on over. have a lot to be done in my house. Yeah. What did you make? Happy to. I made like this this stool in my basement because my laundry is in my basement and so I but it's like really tall so I have to like step on like a little ladder to get into my laundry machines so I built like a big bench looking stool and the Wayne scoting, scotting? Wayne scotting? I think it's called? Scotting? sounds good. Wainscotting I think it is. In the bathroom it's like these like panels you put up and it makes your bathroom look fancier than it is. I did that and yeah I just my life was very domestic and separate and wonderful and then I started writing again and I remembered how much I loved it so but yeah. Is that everything? that you're back to writing sad songs and wonderful songs. But I'm so obviously not to diminish what you went through and how brave that was to walk away. But we're happy that we have these beautiful songs. think we also like. you know, because you were, by the way, you were instantly amazing, I mean, at social media. I was like, wow, she knows how to take this wave and ride it. Like, I remember the day one of the To All The Boys movies came out and I was like exhausted just from posting like one post about the soundtrack. And I was like, how do people do this multiple times a day and tag the right people and... Hashtag, mark, the right thing. but I feel like, hash vibes. Shows you what, yeah. Exactly, mom vibes, hashtag. I'm so embarrassed. I like it. Yes. least I didn't say pound sign, right? Oh wait, what was it you were telling me that the kids are into? I have to ask Ash if she knows this. I don't know it. skivety toilet Ohio? Yeah, it's good. Just live in the ignorance. It's all good. But I was going to say, I think we saw you posting and posting and then suddenly like, I'm canceling my tour. I don't know if you feel this, Laura, but I feel like, you thank us for like helping expose the song with the use in the film. And then obviously you have this kind of meteoric rise and you're touring and performing with Niall Horan and all this stuff and... than when you're like, I need to go away for a while. like, I don't know. I don't feel responsible. But at the same time, it's also such a sad side effect of having success in the music industry. think a lot of people just posted on social media recently that Chapel Rowan started crying at one of her shows because she was like, sorry, guys. It's just happening so fast. And it's really hard. mean, did you call her? I feel like you need to show a girl how to do some Wayne Scotting. Yeah, think, you know, I think she has her head on pretty tight. It seems screwed on pretty well. I think it's just happening really fast. Like she didn't even have like a security guard on the tour she was on. And then like overnight things changed so fast and like suddenly she's got people, you know. being inappropriate and needing, she needs protection and those are, when things happen a little slower, you kind of are like, okay, we're probably at that point now where we should hire security to be at the shows. Whereas for her, I think out of nowhere she was like, like, we need security, we need the barricade, we need more separation from the stage because we're, like, people are. able to access me too much, people are throwing things, and yeah, it's a lot to process. I don't think everyone is cut out for it either. There are people that just, oh, just own it. Like, Billie Eilish is, like, hands down the most graceful person to handle. fame and success. Just, I mean, and I can also say like her being just a very unique special person and the support of her family, like her big brother has protected her as well. Like just has been, we all really need a Phineas. And like where's Chappell -Rowne's Phineas, you know? Like... where are the people that kind of, like you definitely need people to keep you grounded. And I think that's interesting of you to say, Lindsay, but I definitely would say like, you changed my life absolutely for the better in every way possible. I think that was my journey and... the lessons that I learned even from the sort of chaotic times are irreplaceable. Like, you you even think about like, like character is not really... changed or shaped or molded by the good happy everything's great times. Character is what's molded in the growing pains and the really the muck and the trauma and I... look in the mirror and I'm like, that is one strong ass lady. Like, I can really feel, I'm really, really proud to sit here in my body. And that's like part of going through all these crazy things and also let like... I feel like it's important to remember and you're the sad song queens and so I feel like I can talk about sad things. like, Moral of the Story 2020, February, was in the movie, took off, and September 11th my brother died of that same year. So not like... Very soon after I had just put out the version with Niall And I had a like a radio interview the next day that I Couldn't cancel or I didn't know I didn't know how to cancel and I called Niall and I was like I'm gonna need you to like pretty much carry the team on this one because my brother died yesterday and him being like you good? Like are you... Maybe we shouldn't and I was like honestly I just I'm I'm just right my head's just right above water let's just do it and you know there was a lot that I didn't process like because of that and so I put my head down and I focused on the happy part of you know the success but I wasn't processing what happened with my brother so Yeah, we all have our different stories and you live and learn and grow and yeah. Wow, got a little, got sad, sorry. no, that's what, is the, we want the authentic stuff. Like, you know, we can all talk surface, but this is the real stuff. But yeah, and it's like having gone through loss myself, like in some way it's nice to have that distraction, right? Like. But yeah, at the same time, you're not, if you don't check in with yourself and be like, how am I feeling? And I'm sure just you had all these new obligations in some way it's nice to not have to think about it. But then when you have your quiet moments, I'm sure it would catch up. you're in any way your body tells you to like it will can be a bitch like that. Yeah, I think it caught up for sure, but there's no right way to sort of like mourn or grieve or so. And to like Lindsay's point about being good on social media and all that, like I saw there was a window of opportunity that was going to shut. Like I saw like, regardless of brother passing away or not, I saw this window getting smaller and smaller and I was like, you either take this time and let it be a catalyst to having a 50 year career or you let this moment just burn out like a little firework in the sky and then it dies. And I just... I just wanted to turn it into a career and not just a song, you know? So yeah, I kept my head down and did interviews, kept doing interviews and it caught up for sure. But yeah. on your following album, do you play a voicemail from him or you write a song about hearing a voicemail from him? Um, I, both, I wrote a song, it was called Ryan's Song, and he, I put a voicemail from him in at the end. I still, can't, I like can't listen to that song. And no one from my family can listen to that song. I was like, I'm so sorry, it was really therapeutic to write, and it's a special song for fans, I'm glad they have it, but yeah, there's some ones that you just can't like, touch again. Yeah, yeah. my favorite sad song on that album, I'm obsessed with Always, but does that related to your brother? We thought so. We had talked and it's beautiful. It's really beautiful. yeah, that song was definitely dedicated to him. And when I'd sing it on tour, I dedicated it to him every night. And I, when I got to like the second chorus, I'd just let them sing it. And I'd just sit there letting, you know, a crowd of... 1500 people sing that song to me and I just sob. Some nights I just let myself just stand there and sob and then I'd be like, all right, get your shit together because you got to sing this high note at the end of the song. Yeah. about what you do and how you can just buck up and do that. I have so much respect that you can just stand up there and do it night after night too. It's your heartbreak, you know? It's really admirable. Thanks. I think it's it's also part of the reason why I can't do it as much as I did it before. think like that, you know? Yeah, like 70, I know now for me 70 shows is probably too many in a year. Oh, and for the way I do the show, you know, I think I put, if I'm gonna do it in the way that I do it, which is very like, here's my soul and we're gonna cry together and we're gonna laugh together. And if I do it in that way, which I think is... special. Yeah, I can't do it as many times, you know, in a row. But I don't know. I'll have to learn a new balance, you because I miss it a lot. Yeah, do what serves you and what's right for you, you know, like, and I think people will embrace that and your fans, you know, you're so open about it. So it's like we all need to be better about. And I know you can't see in here, but like the past five minutes of our conversation, I've had like the hairs up on my arm. I'm like trying not to cry. Oh, I mean, I don't know if you can see the tears that I've like welled up several times but so when you're feeling like that, I mean, as a songwriter and also as a human, so when you're feeling sad, do you turn to music or do you write music? Like, how do you deal with sadness? I think that for me, I feel, I don't know if it's like because I'm a music artist or creative, but. If I let myself feel deeply and go down a sad song, a hold, it could full on lead to depression. I know that about myself. So when I hear people talk about like, I'm feeling sad today and I'm gonna put on a playlist of sad songs, I'm like, that will swallow me if I let it. I can, like, if I'm doing okay, I can put on Joni Mitchell, both sides now and let myself reminisce about the times I felt sad. But no, if I'm not in a good spot, I'm either listening to nothing or I'm at the piano just playing. Yeah, I don't know, what do you guys do? Do you go down the rabbit hole and just soak in the sad songs? Yeah, I do. And I'll just have moments, like usually, I don't know, like the end of the working day and I just feel like, you know, my brain's swimming and then I just, I don't know, I like the melancholy and I have, you know, of course I have a list of those and I'll just listen and then it makes me think of another one. But also like sad movies when you just like need to cry and just have that like almost loss of control. Cause in some ways you're like, I got that release, you know, but. Yeah, I used to, feel like I haven't done it as much recently just because the life is so busy. But I used to, when my cats died in high school, and I laugh because my, I went to boarding school and my roommate at the time always makes fun of, she'd be like heading back to our room and would hear Tracy Chapman, The Promise or Bruce Springsteen's Secret Garden and be like, God, she's looking at pictures of her cats and crying again. And but I like did it purposefully because I was like, I need to get this out. Like I loved watching sad movies to like get it out. Like it was therapy to me. And they say like I think there's psychological research that because I have a teenager now and they say that listening to a song that matches your mood helps you move through that emotion faster. Hmm. Yeah. So it's interesting that you're like you don't quite find it that way because you're like, well, faster but deeper. Right. I wonder if for me though it's coming from a place of fear. think like, I think I'm afraid that, kinda like I said, it'll swallow me whole. if I have a aunt who lost her son and she's like, I can't start crying, cause if I start crying I'll never stop. And I feel that like, I think what you're doing is healthy and I should probably find a way to do that because I think it is more coming from a place of fear. Like if I go down that rabbit hole, I'll be stuck there forever. Which I don't think is true. I think probably, like you just said, scientifically can help you move through the emotion. Which yeah, so maybe this is a good chat for me and I should lean in a little bit. Yeah, maybe it's like, I mean, I sometimes like, I don't want to say schedule it, but you know, like, there's just times when someone's like, oh, you know, like right after I lost my dad, like some people would be like, don't watch that right now kind of thing, you know, like friends who knew and then be like, but I do, cause I like to be sad. Like, let, you know, I don't want to ignore it. And so I would be like, okay, now I'm in a place like on a weekend where I didn't have to like, you know, go. be in a meeting or something like that or before a review, like an interview. But then I have that and like, there was the, there's this, actually you might really like it. Anderson Cooper has this podcast called All That There Is and it's all about how we don't talk about grief. So, you know, like it's a kind of taboo and it's a weird thing, but like literally every single person goes through it. But every time I listened to it would be on the weekend and I would just like, but it was good because it was like, right, we're talking about it. but that I would have to program when I'd listen to that. And I still have his season two, there's still a couple episodes, but I'm like, I gotta be in the space for it. Well, because otherwise it'll like kind of just come out and like the steam will just like it'll like Like out of nowhere you'll be in a meeting and you're like, why am I crying in the middle of this meeting? You know, so Right. Sometimes it's unavoidable for sure yeah. Just kind of beginning to wrap up and like, do you think like, OK, not scientifically, but like, do you think they're like why? do these songs that we've been talking about today, why do they make us sad? Or they're like, do you think there's like a formula of chords that hit us in a certain place? I do think sometimes it's like a performance, like we can hear when you're going like hard on the, I'm okay, on the moral of the story, you can feel that like release from you. What do you think makes a song sad? Sorry to sing at you, that was awful. No, that was so good. So profound. What's feeling is this like an existential question. I don't know that I have a one simple sort of clean answer. I think that, you know, there are, you know, minor chords are called that for a reason. You can kind of like lean in. But, or like, I don't know if you've ever listened to Elliot Smith, but if you wanna get real sad, it's actually, my brother showed me Elliot Smith forever ago, and so that'll just, ooh, that'll ruin me. But. Yeah, they're like, it's slow, it's these like intimate little sad guitar chords and you can get, yeah, it's strange. It's like the music itself embodies this emotion. I think what probably is resonating is like what the person is truly feeling in that moment, you know? Like. I recorded the lead vocal of Moral of the Story the day we wrote the song. So, like I went back and we added harmonies and we added more layers and doubled some vocals and things like that. But the vocal that you hear as the lead is the vocal that was, you know, experiencing all those emotions of writing that song that day. which I always think is really, really important. Not every artist works this way. I've always thought it was really important to try, if the song is done, record the lead vocal the day you write the song. Because I think it really does kind of capture what headspace you're in. Because you can sing something. the same words and the same melody over and over and over again, but where you're at mentally, physically, spiritually does really seep into what's recorded. And so yeah, that connects to what makes a song. I don't know if you've ever heard a song that is trying to be sad, but it's like not believable. And I've listened to some artists that... I know, I'm just like, I don't believe you. And I think it's really, that's important, that's important. It's important to be authentic to where you're at. And if you're not sad, don't sing a sad song, you know? Like, you can wait, or whatever. Or be a really good actress. I'm a terrible actress, so. Oh, I bet we could put you in front of a camera and prove it otherwise, but you know. I don't think so. You know when you're like a little kid and you're staying up later than your parents want you to and then like they come into the room and you pretend you're asleep? Like my mom would come into the room and I'd just be like Like I'd start I'd start like giggling like I could not I can't lie to save my life And I feel like good actors are good liars. Maybe but I don't know is that no, I think it's amazing to not be a good liar. So that's awesome. Yes, I've been told I should not play poker. Like, can't. can't. So we should not play poker together. I don't play poker either, but. I'd like to watch that, actually. It's very entertaining. We'd be like. feel like Lindsay is probably so good at poker? Can you... No, I just feel like you're like, you can be like stern. You could like focus. You put the professor stuff on sometimes. OK, I do teach. Interesting. I was almost like, I kind of feel the opposite. I do not. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like if we're on Zooms with each other, you can kind of tell how I feel, Yeah, but I know. Yeah, I guess I am. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. We are. I was finishing her sentences earlier. I know. I'll be like, I know. Let's hope so. You want to ask Ash the million dollar question? Well, the sad song. Yeah. yeah. Well, I think you touched on it earlier. I just I know. I know. I think you answered it before, but what is your favorite sad song? did I say, I said Joni Mitchell, both sides now. That's probably, I mean, that's definitely a huge one, which it's not even like on the nose sad, but that song will make me cry. The other one I was thinking of was So Far Away by Carole King. Just doesn't anybody stay in one place anymore. I. Like if I'm not well and I put that song on, I can just sob. Because why doesn't anybody stay in one place anymore? Like why do we all have to have these crazy on the go, moving all the time lives? Like can we just cuddle and stay in one spot? That's... sad for you? Because Laura loves traveling. So maybe that's not sad to you. I mean, to her. Right. Right. It's all personal, right? Yeah. Well it's like, I don't know, being far away from the one you love. I don't know. Yeah, I mean a lot of people do love to travel. Maybe they're traveling with the person they love or, I don't know. for someone who like tours, I should be more comfortable with leaving home. I love being home. Like. you. I also think that's like a product of getting older. Like you're like, wow, my couch is so awesome and my bed. And the pandemic like kind of allowed us all to be like, right, let's get off the rat race. Like I remember when we went out to dinner, was like our first dinner when we saw you like, what was that? 2022 or 2021? we were at, we were in Silver Lake. And I just remember, I think I told you guys, but I was in the moment being like, Because it was like straining to listen to everybody because it was loud and music. And I was like, this is so much stimulation where I had never even thought about that before. But I was like, this is work. And then I was like exa like to de -program when you got home at night too. I was like, I'm going to need a minute. Yeah, I feel like that's never changed for me. I still am like, if I go out, like just the other night, John's, my fiance's cousin was in town and we met up with a few friends and her and it was so nice, but I got home and I was like, I have nothing left to give the world. Like a shell. I don't know. Maybe my coping mechanisms didn't kick back in after COVID or something. muscle or something, who knows. But I really, remember meeting with you guys and loving it. yeah, even if we were tired at the end. know. was so exhausting hanging out with you, Ash. my god. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We are so happy you wanted to be a part. And we thank the world of you. And thank you for having this space with us, holding this space with us. yeah, it just makes us all feel closer. We got through it without real tears. Yeah. They were definitely misty. We got the clumped. yeah, I got for Clutch for sure. I'd be interested to know how many episodes you do. If you are kind of tearing up every episode, that would be kind of awesome. But thank you so much. It means the world to me and obviously you know that you two had and have such an impact in my life. so grateful for you and yeah, I'm honored that you thought of me for this and yeah, maybe it'll be impactful for someone else to listen to. Well, thank you for being your awesome, authentic self and keep on writing those sad songs because we are here to listen to them. Thank you, Love you. my God, we are talkers. I feel like that went so well. was great, thank you. Yeah, we hit on so many things and I appreciate you telling some real stories. Yeah, I never know, I'm like, how deep are people willing to get? good to go, yeah. Like, that's, like having, I'm like the person at a party that'll just talk to the one person, and I'm like, tell me from your life trauma, but I just think that's interesting. I'm just like, yeah. I'm like, let's go there. So if you're not wanting to talk about trauma, don't find Laura at the party. Run away from me. OK, yeah, no, I love it. about grief And I didn't know, I thought your brother died like years ago. I didn't realize that happened. oh my God, during all that stuff. like right on the heels of it, heroin overdose, which was like a long, I mean, he had been an addict for years and years. So it was kind of a, yeah, a sad ending to a long time of sadness. But yeah, it was crazy. I had like driven up to my family's place. from LA and my manager was like, we still have these interviews, do you wanna do them? And I was like, I just felt like I couldn't not. I knew I could've, but there was like, like I said, that window of opportunity was passing her. like the hard, I feel like on your like the hard part of fame is like, well, and it's like that, I don't know, sort of that scarcity mentality. Not that it's not, but like just the like, I mean, we have that of like saying no to things like, you know, like I was still working the week my dad, I was like sitting bedside and then, you know, I mean, it's just like. Although my mama bear selves wanted to be like, no, you're not doing that interview. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah. With you, yeah. Yeah, yeah, to your story. I know. But I had to take whatever off of Laura's Yeah. No, I know. And Lindsay was so good where I was like, I'll show up to this meeting, but I was so underwa you know, like, you're so underwater. You're like, my brain is mush. But I'd like kind of be there. But like, you kind of led the charge. And yeah. Yeah, I think that's so sweet. I mean, like I said, like, there's no right way to grieve and sometimes, like... What you have to do is just put your head down and keep working or find the moments where you can be alone and watch the sad movie on the weekend and let out as much steam as possible, you know? But I don't know, I'm convinced like every trauma or death I experience I'll probably be different each time, you know? So, I don't know, life's weird, but. is. Anyways, I'm so, this was so nice and sweet to chat with you guys. So when I, don't, I'm not gonna click leave. All right, but we can press stop. We press stop, right Rob? And is it at 100? yeah, so you just have to wait. What does your video say? Does it say 100 %? Jinx. Oh. Oh, or do we stop recording? We won't use any of this. Yeah. yeah, yeah. And we're not going to use any of this part because that's our personal. Yeah. But you don't really want.