4. Sarojini Naidu: Leader in the India Independence movement

The Nightingale of India: Sarojini Naidu's Fight for Freedom and Equality

In this episode of 'She Changed History,' hosts Simon and Vicky discuss the inspiring life of Sarojini Naidu, known as the Nightingale of India. Sarojini was a poet, politician, campaigner, and a key leader in the Indian independence movement and universal suffrage. The conversation begins with Simon and Vicky's personal banter about an upcoming fancy dress party and moves into the historical narrative. Born into a well-educated and privileged family, Sarojini's views on British rule were initially favorable. Her time at Girton College, Cambridge, however, exposed her to the harsh realities of British sexism, leading her to question and ultimately oppose British imperialism. She met Gandhi and became a fervent disciple of his nonviolent resistance movement (Satyagraha), advocating for both Indian independence and women's rights. The episode covers key milestones in her life, including her poetry, political speeches, involvement in the Indian suffragette movement, and crucial role in the Salt March and Quit India Movement. Sarojini's journey from admiration for the British to a staunch advocate for Indian and women's rights exemplifies her bravery and unwavering commitment to justice.

● King’s College London Biography https://www.kcl.ac.uk/people/sarojini-naidu

● Article on Aljazeera by Nick Dall

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/9/14/the-indian-poet-who-scared-white-south-africa-and-changed-it

● Cambridge University Library article by Jill Whitelock

https://specialcollections-blog.lib.cam.ac.uk/?p=28325

● Armstrong History Journal article by Madisyn Staggs

https://armstronghistoryjournal.wordpress.com/2021/04/20/from-poet-to-activist-sarojini-naidu-and-her-battles-against-colonial-oppression-and-misogyny-in-20th-century-india/

● Raman, Sita Anantha (2006). "Naidu, Sarojini".

00:00 Introduction and Casual Conversation

01:15 Introducing Sarojini Naidu: The Nightingale of India

03:27 Early Life and Education

06:36 Experiences in England and Changing Perceptions

12:05 Return to India and Entry into Politics

12:57 Advocacy for Women's Rights and Indian Independence

16:18 Challenges and Setbacks in the Fight for Suffrage

18:05 Colonial South Africa and the Indian Laborers

19:50 Indentured Labor and Gandhi's Arrival in South Africa

21:16 Gandhi's Transformation and Meeting with Sarojini

22:33 Sarojini's Political Journey and Non-Violent Resistance

26:25 The British Salt Monopoly and Gandhi's Salt March

33:41 The Quit India Movement and Sarojini's Role

37:01 India's Independence and Sarojini's Legacy

37:41 Reflections on History and Non-Violent Protest

41:52 Conclusion and Further Reading

Transcript

audio1515201822: 0:08

Hello. Welcome to She Changed History. I'm Simon. I'm Vicky. How are you? I'm good, how are you doing? Good, okay. I'm excited for our fancy dress party tomorrow. Oh yeah. Have you got your outfit ready? Yep, my outfit arrived on Tuesday. Oh very good. Doesn't fit. Okay. So I've had to um, cobble together something else. I'm supposed to be going as Kristoff from Frozen and it'll No! This is the cutest! Yeah, well Kat's going as Anna. And I think the only way you'll be able to tell that I'm Kristoff is that you'll be able to tell that Kat's Anna. Yeah, and if you ever separate throughout the party people will be clueless. Yeah, so I'm going to look a bit of a shambles, but whatever, it'll be a fun night, can't wait. Doesn't matter. Yeah. But I've never stayed at Speech House, so I'm looking forward to it. Did you see that time Alison Hammond stayed at Speech House for Ant Dec's Saturday Night Takeaway, and they convinced her it was haunted? It was so funny. Oh, she's a great one to convince of a haunting, isn't she? Yeah, it was brilliant. Okay, today's story, is about a lady Sarojini Naidu, known as the Nightingale of India. I'm actually gonna, isn't it, yeah, I'm gonna start out with a little poem. Okay, let's do that. She was a poet, um, so, Till ye have battled with great grief and fears, And borne the conflict of dream shattering years, Wounded with fierce desire, And worn with strife, Children, ye have not lived. Quite a deep poem. Yeah. Where are we going? These are the words of poet, politician, campaigner and activist Sarojini Naidu, a leader in the Indian independence movement and fight for universal suffrage. Standing a mere 4 foot 10, her life took her from India to Cambridge to South Africa, inspiring the fight for equal rights both for women and people of colour. she always spoke her mind, and her ideas on race, empire, and women were all well ahead of their time. As a close political ally of Gandhi, she advocated for non violent protests against the British rule of India, she spent her life in politics, becoming president of the Indian National Congress, Okay, so she's Ghandi's right hand woman. That's what we're saying. Basically, yeah. That is exciting. Okay. The sources for today are a biography on the King's College London website, an article on Al Jazeera by Nick Dahl, Cambridge University Library article by Jill Whitelock, Armstrong History Journal article by Madison Staggs, and excerpts from the Encyclopedia of India, and various other small, I mean there's so much to read around on this topic that you just, it just goes on and on because it incorporates, suffragette movement, university policy, apartheid, Indian independence, salt. And I know this is the point of the podcast, but I've never heard of her. No. How have I not heard of her? Okay. Yeah, because like Gandhi was leader of the movement, she was there by his side all along, sort of second in command. Um, and well, we'll, we'll find out. Okay, let's go. I'm excited. so born on February 13th, same birthday as my mother, 1879, not the same birth year as my mother, in Hyderabad in India. her father was a principal of the Nizam's College in Hyderabad. he studied in Edinburgh, oddly. and her mother was a singer and poet. Uh, she came from a family that was really well regarded in Hyderabad. Definitely an upper caste. I think it's pronounced, so India has the caste system, in way that historically over here in Britain we've had the class system. Oh, okay, okay, so it's similar. Yeah, it's very similar, and it's still, you can still see it today in, like Bollywood movies and things. And the sort of pictures of beauty in India, generally lighter skin means higher caste. Um, and so a lot of skin lightening creams, don't they, and things? Yeah. Okay. her family were, well regarded, well educated, relatively wealthy, um, her father was a principal of a college. they were definitely a sort of higher caste family. she was one of eight siblings. Shakespeare and Wordsworth filled their bookshelves. British intellectual and military icons were revered in her household and stories about them told. And she and her siblings You know. So this is colonization central though, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And they sort of, at the time, they looked down on, like the hired help spoke the local languages and they thought it very uncivilized not to have a knowledge of English. And she considered the British rule of India, which had been going for over a hundred years at this point, um, you know, fair and reasonable and justified. Yeah, the British were really well regarded in her household. You know what that made me think of it made me think of, When poor people are bilingual, it's a bad thing. And when rich people are bilingual, it's a great thing. Even though bilingual is bilingual, right? one rule for one, one rule for another. The, the fact that she's looking down on people. And it was sort of rich people. They're polyglots. Yes. Yeah. But yeah. Um, there's a, it was a privilege and sort of intellectually rich childhood. But, and she just hadn't been exposed to the harsher aspects of British rule. True. Come onto, but she's well educated. So well educated. Yeah. But maybe just sheltered at this point. Um, at the age of 12. just 12, she passed her matriculation exams to enter university. Oh. And in those exams, she got the highest rank possible. So she went to I was meaning like, she's educated. Yes, she is educated. She really is educated, yeah. Um, and then received a scholarship to go and study at King's College in London. Nice. and after that moved to Girton College in Cambridge. And during her time over in England, she was mixing with sort of a vast array of contemporary poets and artists and liberal free thinking households People such as WB Yeats, who himself was a supporter of Irish independence, and she had a sort of enduring friendship with. So she went to like the epicentre, so she had like this, yeah. opinion on British rule, and then she actually went to the motherland. Yeah, and she, you know, this was fantastic. She was, it was everything it promised. She was surrounded by these, fabulous intellectuals and living this life of poetry and art and, debate. The nice bits of Britain, yeah. The nice bits of Britain, yeah. Not the workhouses of Victorian England or anything like that, yeah, yeah. Um, so, Girton College. In Cambridge is where she ended up studying. Okay. And this was, a college founded in 1869 by two women, Emily Davis and Barbara Bodichon. Ooh. Or Bodichon, or something. It was part of Cambridge University and crucially, it was the first residential college. Which offered degree level education to women. same lectures, same setup, same learning experience as the men who went there, although it was founded by women and Women got taught there, could study there, they could take the exams, the same exams, and outperform the men. They weren't considered members of the university. Nor, Nor were they entitled to their degrees at the end. They didn't, they weren't awarded a degree after it. They would sit the exams, Pass the exams, and not get anything as a result of it. Simon. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. Um, you're gonna hate it even more shortly. um, in, uh, in 1897, the college held a vote as to whether to award women degrees to even it up, you know? And, uh, yeah, three to one the vote went, uh, against the idea I've put, I've actually, I've got a picture which I, sent over to you earlier, uh, which is photography from the time of the crowds of men stood outside. And there are some other pictures, you can find them on the, Cambridge University Library website. They've got an article and they've dug up these old pictures, and there's

video1515201822: 8:33

them on their

audio1515201822: 8:33

stick them on their Instagram or

video1515201822: 8:34

as well. Yeah.

audio1515201822: 8:35

We've got to get them up. The. My favourite, favourite's a weird word for it, but my favourite one is probably this enormous crowd of hundreds of men sort of cheering about it. They're absolutely delighted that the vote has gone, that women aren't allowed to grieve. This is the vote? The vote, yeah. There's so many of them. And then there's just a single woman in the middle of it who's actually looking at the camera, so sort of accidentally at that time catches the camera, just looking. Yeah, defeated. Defeated, yeah, defeated, flat. These are meant to be smart people. These are meant to be smart men. This is it, she's come over and she's in the absolute, you know, you think of intellectual Britain, I mean today, but especially around this time, And for a young girl from India to come over and be studying at Cambridge and surrounded by all these wonderful contemporaries, she thinks she's in the absolute heart of this British establishment that she's held in such high regard. And yet they don't give degrees. They're not members of the university. They're sort of shunning these women off to one side. There's no meritocracy And once They lose this vote, the majority, not all, but certainly three to one, of men are just delighted about this and there's what sounds like a sort of a war cry echoes out around the college and where the vote was happening. And all of these jubilant, male undergraduates and men associated with the university start an absolute riot of celebration. Get out, seriously. They have even prepared beforehand. banners that they hang from the windows. So in the photo here, this is actually a bookshop, and you can pick out, there's what looks like a mannequin on a bicycle. Yeah, I can see. So they made a mannequin, of a woman dressed in bloomers, uh,

video1515201822: 10:26

Yeah. uh,

audio1515201822: 10:27

to mock these, uh, Oh, you know, women are riding bicycles now, um, sort of thing. So they hang this out the window, it gets torn down and paraded around, and they rip the head off, and they rip the legs off it. You know, it's just, they've Hooligans, isn't it? They've absolutely lost their minds. Yeah. They've lost their minds. Incidentally, it wouldn't be until 1948 that women were finally given full membership at the university. It's been like 80 years later. 50 years on from this. Sorry, I got that wrong. So these events really shifted, Sarojini's perception of the British. It's changed, it's changed everything. It's undermined everything she'd been brought up to believe. It's quite a strong message as well, isn't it? I'm going to rip this head off this woman's mannequin because she has boobs. Yeah. That's it, isn't it? Despite her probably getting higher scores in them exams, let's be honest. Yeah. Yeah. Um, a Hindu role model of hers was once quoted as saying that, Man for man, the English are better than ourselves. And this is the sort of ethos that she'd been. Brought up on so it wasn't at the time that was a sort of a race thing like they are. better than us, but she was seeing not only are these Englishmen awful to us because we're women, how else are they awful to us? What's the truth behind how they're ruling India? So this sort of such a misplaced idea was totally smashed apart by all of these savages in fancy hats. Yeah. and her idea that the British rule of India was fair or justified in any way was just. Out of the window. Yeah. Yeah. So the following year she, 1898 we're in now, she returned to India. Um, that same year she married, um, Govindaraju Naidu, whom she'd actually met while she was in England. He studied, at the University of Edinburgh, same university as her father. Ooh, he was celebrating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh. I don't think he's they stayed together for a long old time. and they had lots of children. She seemed very committed to him. He was of a lower caste than her, so at the time, it was almost considered the sort of scandal that we'd get, 40 years ago for an interracial marriage sort of thing. It's like the idea that you would marry outside of your caste was just incomprehensible. their marriage was considered groundbreaking and scandalous. Scandalous. Scandalous, yeah. Just imagine the Daily Mail headlines. 1902. Encouraged by a close friend, she entered politics and had this fervent focus on both Indian independence and women's rights. She wanted independence from the British, and she wanted Women's rights, universal suffrage, and for politics she'd built up all of these skills because she was a poet. She was a great speaker, a great orator. She had this way with words that made her just perfectly suited to politics and capturing crowds. Yeah, totally. So did she get up and talk then? She, she did. Was quite public or Oh, yeah. She was very happy to sort of browse up a crowd. give speeches and she was already quite well known for her poetry. Oh, I see. Yeah. So at the time she had a platform already at Yeah. And independence and the fight for it. It was not an unfamiliar. idea to her at this stage. Turns out her brother, Birren, was a revolutionary who had been working, for a while to overthrow the British rule of India, but doing it by armed force. So he was out, he, around this sort of time, a friend of his was assassinated in Kensington, while he was out with him. And later in life, he would try and make friends with Stalin and would speak with Germany and try and make all of these links to try and then get the Brits out of India. But he was using armed force to do it. And so he's taking like the Les Mis approach. And it was about as successful as Les Mis actually. And she's taking You know, a more, More passive. Yeah. Yeah. she had these skills in poetry and orry, and she used these to promote women's rights as well as the nationalist movements. So she had these jewel campaigns going on. in 1906, she gave a speech to the Social Council of Calcutta to advocate for the education of Indian women, stressing that the success of the nationalist movement relied upon the woman question, and that women were true nation builders. Yes, I love this. And so at this point, she was starting to conflate these two issues, as you can't Sort of really have one without the other. And in order to fight for that independence, you can't just dismiss the political will of half of your people. Yeah, so this is like intersectional feminism. Yeah, I love it. She gave a speech in 1918 where she emphasised the influence of women in bringing about political and spiritual unity. She claimed that the right of franchise is a human right and not a monopoly of one sex only. Um, and argued that women had always played an important role in political life in India, and that rather than going against tradition, women's franchise would simply be giving back what was theirs all along. So she is, she's out there, she's doing these speeches. Yeah. Yeah. She's helping form these associations. She is, yeah. but her fight, it's sort of a funny one. If you look at the suffrage movement, maybe over here, the fight that they had was against the establishment. And the establishment here, in their own country, was saying no, they were saying yes. And that was the dynamic that was going on. Her fight was not against the Indian state or the Indian people, because they didn't have a say in it. This, this imbalance was imposed by the British rule. Yeah. And the timelines are so close. Like sva Yeah. 19. 19. Right. So the fact that she's making these speeches in 1918, that Yeah, she must have had some momentum behind her from the British channel. Totally. In 1919, there was something called the Montague Chelmsford Reforms, um, but they did nothing to enfranchise Indian women and completely ignored their demands, despite promises that had been made in the run up to those coming through. Oh, so they were just focused on the British talk rather than the encompassing everyone talk. Okay. Yeah, I know that rather than any significant change in India dictated from on high, the reforms left the decision on women's franchise to these provincial councils. And while some councils did approve it, they approved it with lots of caveats and restraints. So the actual number of women eligible to vote was very, very small. Even though on the headline they would say, you know, we've enfranchised all of these women to vote. But it was, it was, it was very disingenuous. Yeah. And that fuels people, though. Surely that fueled her to, like, if you say no to something, in that regard, in that way, will you say yes, then take it away? The anger and the pent up frustration and, yeah. Totally. If anything, it's doing her a favour, isn't it? By giving her more of a drive and more of a, I'm not taking no for an answer. Yeah. And again, this is a thread that's in, so many of the people we've, covered so far. I'm getting quite riled up, but I know Gandhi's coming. It's not the same vibe. Gandhi's quite chill. Now we're jumping around a little bit here, that's sort of a timeline up to 1919 for her on her own, her doing her own thing. But we're going to jump back in time and to South Africa just to see where that link comes in. Yeah, let's do it. Look out, we're going to meet Gandhi. Right. So, colonial South Africa, relied heavily on imported slave labour, but then slavery was abolished. And so I thought, okay, we can't have slaves anymore. What we will have instead to work on, on the farms. Oh, bummer. Yeah. Obviously not going to do the work ourselves. we will. shipping, indentured Indian laborers to work on our cane sugar farms. So from 1860s onward, over 150, 000, were shipped over from India to South Africa to work on these sugar cane plantations. Mm hmm, mm hmm. Um, I mean you sort of still get it now, you think of like the Qatari World Cup. Mm hmm. When they were bringing labourers in to work on the building sites there. I mean it's still, this kind of still happens. Yeah, fair wage is a very loose term, isn't it? Yeah. Even in modern day society. Totally. Like a fair living wage. You know, and also what reminds me of about the wage thing is like a 16 year old doesn't get paid as much as a 21 year old. Isn't that wild? And another thing. Yeah, and another thing. Isn't that just wild though that, you know, and it's just like. Working in Greggs, like you're doing the same thing, like someone being a cashier in Greggs doesn't magically improve when they become 21. No. It's insane. If anything, they're going backwards because they're fed up with being a cashier in Greggs. Yeah, maybe, maybe. I mean, these, laborers that were shipped over, originally they were on five year contracts. So they were supposed to come over, and then they would go back. A lot of them ended up staying, they might start a business after their effectively slave labor finished. I mean, they weren't given proper wages, they weren't given proper living conditions. They were beaten, just terrible conditions. quite a lot of them stayed and put roots down in South Africa. So there's, a not insignificant sort of Indian contingent. in South Africa, in 1893, a young Indian lawyer by the name of Mohandas Gandhi, arrived in South Africa to handle a legal matter for a wealthy Indian trader. so he was just going over there, poor work to help out. He was very shy at this time and he turned up in a, very young, turned up in a three piece suit and tie Coupled with a turban, so he turned up in 18 It's a bit Harvey Specter, yeah. Harvey Specter, but more meek and skinny, I think. yeah, so, Gandhi, Gandhi, Gandhi, Mm. Turned up in 1893 to do some legal work for a short trip, and 21 years later, he was allowed to leave. Oh, my God. So, he'd gone there and then been caught up as, um, Twenty four years. An indentured labourer. Yeah, so he left the country in sandals and robes that the labourers wore, and that's the sort of image of him that we now associate with sort of the classic Gandhi look. when he arrived in South Africa, Gandhi was this enthusiastic emissary of the empire, and he was a total racist. He was fully on board with Britain ruling India. racism was pretty standard for that, but by the time he left again, during that time, he'd had this sort of perception shattering, experience, and so he left as a real anti imperialist supporter of black unity. So you can see how when they did meet that their values would align, right? Because they've really aligned on this kind of, Value, like you say, value shattering journey. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And they, they ended up meeting, uh, in 1914. And she very soon credited Gandhi with galvanizing her commitment to political action. And she became a fervent disciple of his. Oh, so she's like, yes, Gandhi, whatever you say. Yeah. Yes. Yes, Gandhi. Yes, Gandhi. She's like, this is, this is brilliant. I love your dedication to it. I love your, um, approach, reviews. I found a little quote, she described him as looking exactly like a bat. Like a bat! Which I quite liked. Like a bat, yeah. I see that. It's the eyes, isn't it? So, she'd been in politics now for fifteen years, twelve, fifteen years, by the time she met Gandhi. She'd been fighting on sort of two separate fronts, one for, suffrage, one for Indian independence, but she more and more came to see these as intrinsically linked, um, asserting sort of women's ability to enact political change that she was looking for and linking them and their struggle to the struggle for independence from British rule. She's a clever cookie, yeah, yeah, yeah. and this is where we come to Gandhi's movement of non violent resistance. What he's maybe most famous for is, it was called Satyagraha, you know, which is two words together that means, holding firmly to the truth. he was very clever to have it called that, because having a strong value based identity to follow is so powerful, isn't it? Rather than just do as what we say, that's not, that's not exciting or empowering or it doesn't motivate you, For sure. In such contrast to both the way that the British had ruled India and the efforts to date, to overthrow that rule of India, it was very much done by force. I mean, you'd have slightly different levels of force around the country, but in many areas you would just have garrisons of military personnel with machine guns and rocket launchers and there would be beatings and any uprising with, was quashed big juxtaposition, yeah. Yeah.

audio1927901495: 24:01

So this idea of peaceful protest, was very different to what had come before. This movement actually later went on to inspire and was sort of the seed for lots of other social justice movements around the world, including Martin Luther King Jr's in the US and Nelson Mandela's struggle against apartheid in South Africa. It's like this was a big inspiration for them, that you can fight it in a non violent way and sort of take, take the high road, if you like. Sarojini was integral to this, yeah? Yeah, yeah, as, um, Gandhi's, well, partner in it really. Okay. Um, and she went to speak in South Africa. She wasn't particularly welcome in South Africa. Once she'd gone, many white South Africans were very glad to see her leave and her papers accused her of stirring up mischief. Which is actually one of my favourite hobbies. Yeah, well, me too. This is the mischief we're stirring, let's go. One paper said that her visit had led to a resurgence of aggressiveness in the Asiatic temper. Oh, so they blamed her? Yeah. Oh, But speaking of the struggle in South Africa, she said only one incident in the whole struggle which is taking place, oppressed black people of the world are linked together in the brotherhood of suffering and martyrdom. So she That's an interesting quote, isn't it? God. Yeah. Yeah. She was seeing conflating not just India's independence and, the women's suffrage movement, but this general suppression of non white people around the world. Mm hmm. Particularly in this sort of, still what was a colonial era. She's really brave, isn't she, to be saying. Yeah. Oh, she spoke her mind to anyone. And really articulate, yeah. Yes. she quoted as saying, I never hoped to hear an Indian woman say, I am different from the white woman, the coloured woman, the native woman. I do not care what your religion is, you are a woman, and women were meant to lead the earth. When women do that, the world will become good. Do not think only of yourselves, but fight for your rights, because you are women. Oh my god, we need that on a t shirt, we need that on one of those plaques, like, live, laugh, love, or whatever it is, we need, we need that there. That's a big, big t shirt, yeah. Big t shirt. Available in 4XL and above. I'm just going to cover a little bit about British rule of India. this British East India Company have been in control of India since 1757. And in 1858, the British government took direct rule. And the big benefit of this for Britain was trade. So Britain and its traders earned an enormous amount from this trade back and forth, and it all went back into Britain's coffers to fund the industrial revolution. So this was industrial change in Britain and a lot of that was funded from this, trade throughout the empire. an example of this was the British salt monopoly, like eating salt. Yep. and they, Like salt, it's an essential. It's an absolute essential. Mate, when there's no salt in the house, it's nothing tastes right. Do you have different kind of salts for different kind of things as well? Mate, we have a selection of salt now, yeah. Mate, I'm not savage. Yeah, we've become that kind of person where we've got different salts for different things. You're salt pricks. Welcome to the club. Yeah, hello. Of course, back then, you think, before powered refrigeration, for example, in a hot country, you need salt for preserving, you need salt for keeping your food safe, you need, you've got to have salt. But they took over all of the salt production, all of the salt mines, all of the salt facility, Britain did, yeah, and put in place their favoured Brits to lead it, and outlawed the production or sale of salt by anyone other than themselves. And having this stranglehold, a total monopoly over salt production, they could then tax it. So they taxed the sales of it. And they put taxes on which tripled the price of salt. So, people who are already in poverty, already struggling. And it's a necessity. The taxes on salt have been going on for over a hundred years. And they sort of, they just enforced it with force. They shot you if they found you assault, you know, and if you tried to raid or if you were found with it, it was very harsh punishment. in 1930, Gandhi organized the salt march, which was a peaceful bit of civil disobedience where he and his followers, marched a sort of a marathon length. um, as an act of non violent civil disobedience. Initially, he didn't want to allow women to join the march because of the physical demands of it. and as we know from, previous things, women can't run. They definitely can't march, Simon. They definitely can't march. For heaven's sake. Good lord. And the high chance that they would be arrested and beaten. But, Sarojini was insistent. Her and her associates persuaded him otherwise. So she and other female activists joined this march. And yeah, okay, so ostensibly this is about assault attacks, but it's about much broader issues than this. She manages to bring together and inspire people. on these smaller issues to see this bigger picture. You know what this is making me think of is, what's that environmental group called? Stop oil. Yeah, it's making me think of them because it was one of the words you used, civil disobedience, which is what they are, isn't it? And yes, they're making everyone's lives hell. And, but, I really hope that knowing what happens with the empire and women's rights, I really hope something happens on the back of Just Stop Oil because, it's so similar, isn't it? And, throwing soup at a picture they have had a longer prison sentence than violent crimes than domestic violent crimes than that kind of thing. And it just shows how messed up our priorities are. And this is like, just like this, how messed up is this salt situation? I really hope history kind of repeats that bit of itself. But in a hundred years, there'll be a podcast made about them. Well, this is the thing. The timeline is insane. This is like 90 years ago, right? 1930. Like, it's really concerning particularly in Britain, with our government really clamping down on peaceful protest. Oh, I really hope that something comes with it. Something meaningful, these individual acts of civil disobedience themselves might not get the change directly, but they're bringing the issue to a wider audience. They're gradually, the more it happens, the more people get involved until it reaches a tipping point, which we'll see later, It's fascinating that it's still applicable today, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. Yeah. Following this march, as he predicted, Gandhi himself was arrested and imprisoned and he appointed, Sarojini as the leader. Oh, okay, so she really was his right hand man. Yeah, yeah. Nice. Second in command, now leader of the pack. And as the leader of that, there was, of course, behind the scenes, we've missed out a lot of details here, but I've, I've got to be in work on Monday, so, you know, I can't, I can't go through all of it. We are trying to dissect many, many things There's a lot, it's a lot to cram in there. It is a lot. Yeah. We're like the Diet Coke version of, you know. Behind the scenes in all of this, there were lots of negotiations going on between the current sort of rulers, people in charge of India, the cabinet officials, in charge of India back in Britain and the Indian people and their representatives in this movement who were pushing for independence. And there were things called the Roundtable Conferences, between the Indian independence movement and British rulers to discuss potential constitutional reforms in India. So she was at that table? She was at that. Wow. She skipped the first one in protest against Gandhi's imprisonment. She then went to London. for the second one, and during these years she had been back and forth to London to have conferences and discussions with officials there in this constant fight, but she was at this second roundtable conference, and eventually they agreed to the following terms. Uh, they would withdraw all ordinances and end prosecutions, release all political prisoners, accept those guilty of violence. I mean that alone led to the release of 90, 000 political prisoners in India. I was going to say, that must be so many, yeah. And she did that. God, that's cool. Permit peaceful picketing of liquor and foreign cloth shops. Restore confiscated properties. Yeah. Permit free collection or manufacture of salt by persons near the seacoast. And lift the ban over the Congress. So this Congress that she'd helped build up had been outlawed. Right. That was no longer banned, so India had its own Congress. Although it didn't yet have independence and control, it was starting to get a foothold. Right. in that. And the next step of this, was the Quit India movement, which was launched by Gandhi in 1942 with, Sarojini up there with him. Yes, Sarojini. Demanding. I cannot believe, She's like, you see all these pictures of Gandhi and I'd love to look back at all of these photos and see how many you can spot Sarojini next to him. Yeah. the headline, is always Gandhi. Yeah. But she was there for, what are we, 30 years? And you know those negotiations were not easy. That was not a, this is what we want. Oh, okay then. That needed so much intellect, patience, strategy. It needed so many skills in that room for her to be the one doing that. And yes, I love that she was only four foot 10. Wow. Yeah. Small but mighty. Yeah. you know, I'm assuming the white people were taller and, broader because they're men and, you know, yeah, absolutely. And the disdain they probably had, even talking to that. And it makes you feel like really like linking it to today. We're hoping for a female United States president. we're hoping for women leaders in these positions. The people need the seats at those tables, yet she managed to manufacture her way into one. And that in itself is really, really special, wow. I did not know that. So this movement, which launched in 1942, the British jailed Sarojini for 21 months. For her involvement in it. So despite all of the sort of terms agreed to at this roundtable conference, before they imprisoned her, so nearly two years, but by this point So sorry, did this happen after the table or before the table? After the table. After the table, so it all kind of fell apart? After the table. Okay. Yeah, but think of the, the context now of the sort of world events and setting. We're in 1942, midway through World War II. So, on the one hand, Britain is trying to maintain its rule over India by force. On the other hand, it's fighting a world war. Yeah. Which, I mean, it's a world war because so many countries are involved. It's got all of these different fronts, tens of thousands of miles apart. It's having to fight and spread its resources out to, and alongside this, there was massive growing civil unrest across India. So this movement of Satyagraha was catching on. It wasn't just something that Gandhi and his disciples were doing. It was now spreading all across India. And the British Exchequer basically run out of money because of World War II. And the Labour Prime Minister at the time knew he lacked support at home for continued rule over India, lacked support internationally for it. The native forces that had been put in place to maintain this control on Britain's behalf at a distance were no longer willing. Or able to control it, because this civil unrest that was spreading everywhere had just reached this tipping point. So they preyed on that weakness. Yeah. Yeah. After the end of World War II, 1947, the Labour government decided to end rule of India. And following independence, Sarojini was appointed governor of the United Provinces. Because she was the first female. Governor of an independent India, um, and remained in office until her death in 1949. Oh, so not long. Jesus. Not long. Not long. So she had two years of freedom. Yeah. Yeah, but at least saw out her, well, the life's work really. That's kind of a shame though, And how old was she she was 69 when she died. Yeah. Wow. Oh my God. I mean, I tried to, I tried to write a conclusion for this, but all I could put was bloody hell. And I normally like a summary, but, there was just so much going on here and so much over so many years and they'd risked so much because they, at any point during this, they could have just been shot. There's such enormous risk, but they stuck with it. And I imagine people went, Indian people went to fight World War II, so not only are they fighting in the war, they are fighting for their freedom at the same time, yeah. And being very strategic about, okay, the government, they're a bit weak right now, they've run out of resources, like you said, now's the time to apply the pressure, and they chose to. Yeah. And, on top of probably reeling from so much destruction Um, wow. I didn't know those timelines cross so closely. I didn't appreciate that they overlapped. Yeah. And we've spoken about this before in like the Our view of history is very much concentrated, really, for most people, on what you learn at school. And it's this curriculum and you learn all about British history and you just get little excerpts from other places. You don't really realise or consider, unless you're confronted with something like this, the parallel histories, the parallel struggles going on in these other societies. And I was just absolutely blown away by it. Yeah, I feel good. It's a, it's a good story, isn't it? It's a good, I feel really, I'm relieved because you look pissed off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was. But again, we weren't taught things like that. We weren't taught that actually. There were mannequins of you. Being thrown around and jaded because you're a woman like I did not know that had happened like the absolute hatred Hatred for women. but you hear quotes and stuff. Don't you and you hear facts like yeah women got the vote, but you don't hear the absolute disdain No, it is. It does feel like this and these, particularly like the Girton College events, this real sort of animalistic behaviour, these otherwise, you know, upstanding young gentlemen studying at Cambridge. You can imagine them with their notebooks, yeah, writey writey. Yeah. Yeah, got all the equations, yeah. And absolutely lost their minds. Yeah. Because Heaven forbid a woman, yeah, got more in an exam than you did, but she didn't get the paper that you got. Oh my God. We're talking about it again. We can't, we can't. I've lost my happiness immediately. Yeah. So Rajini and I do. Wow. Thank you so much for teaching me. That's amazing. There's a lot that came out in the research that there just isn't time to include here. So I'd really recommend, reading up more about all of this. Yes. All of this and the history of, women in British universities. Yeah. Particularly the Oxfords and Cambridges and just how recently in history, things. have changed, if they have changed. India and its independence and both sides of the coin of British rule and colonialism and the empire. And don't get me wrong, there was outrage on the British side about a lot of this behavior that their proxies were exhibiting over in India. I'm just astonished that this, that they stuck so vehemently to this non violent protest for 30 years. Yeah, and I just think how long How much fate yeah, how much faith you've got to have that it will eventually work until you just think ah, fuck it Let's get a cannon Like to not Not go that route. Yeah Yeah. It's remarkable. And you know where you can learn more? You can learn more on our Facebook group that we've got. We've got a She Changed History Facebook group where women are shared every day and other people are sharing stuff now and it's just a really happy place of the internet where you can learn amazing things. So please come join that and rate, review and subscribe to this would be very helpful as well so more people can learn and yeah, just continue this really, really, really Wild ride. All our stories are mental. So wild. You just don't know where it's going to take you. Like today we've certainly covered some ground. Absolutely. So yeah, thank you so much for listening. Thanks everyone. And we'll see you next time. Bye.