13. Marlena Schoenberg Fejzo and Giselle Pelicot

Unveiling Strength: From Hyperemesis Gravidarum to Giselle Pelicot's Fight for Justice

Trigger warnings: Baby loss, medical neglect and sexual violence

In this episode, the hosts tackle two intense stories centered on women's health and resilience. First, they highlight the work of Marlena Fejzo, an American geneticist who dedicated her research to understanding Hyperemesis Gravidarum (HG) after her own harrowing experience with the condition. Marlena's efforts led to significant strides in uncovering the genetic basis of HG and advocating for better treatments

The second segment delves into the harrowing and empowering story of Giselle Pelicot, a French woman who discovered that her husband had been drugging and recruiting men to assault her for nine years. Giselle bravely waived her anonymity to ensure justice was served, influencing legal reforms and raising global awareness. This episode highlights the importance of addressing and respecting women's health concerns and the shame wrongly felt by victims of sexual abuse.

Resources:
HER Foundation: https://www.hyperemesis.org/
https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/finding-out/your-first-midwife-appointment/
https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-help/want-to-talk/
https://rainn.org/resources


00:00 Introduction and Banter
00:59 Today's Stories Overview
01:38 Marlene Fazo: The Scientist
02:17 The Reality of Hyperemesis Gravidarum (HG)
04:31 Marlene's Personal Struggle with HG
08:38 Scientific Breakthrough: Discovering the HG Gene
14:51 Ongoing Efforts and Advocacy
16:33 The Importance of Sharing and Normalizing Conversations
18:03 Public Service Announcement and Transition
18:12 Introducing the Story of Giselle Pelicot
19:32 Giselle's Life and the Horrific Betrayal
21:17 The Arrest and Uncovering the Crimes
26:13 The Trial and Giselle's Bravery
32:04 Reflections on the Case and Its Impact
35:54 Conclusion and Resources for Support

Transcript

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My god, you guys love the stress, don't you? You're like a wedding, baby, two house moves. Insane. I don't like messing about. No, but you're just like all the stress in a really small amount of time. Let's do it. All of it, bring it on. All of it, all of it, all of it. Funny. Um, okay. Hi Vicky. Hi Simon. How you doing? I'm good, you look very breezy. It's so hot in here, honestly. So, so hot. The nation is shaking. Shivering. It's just like an entire household of, of heat is just concentrated in this one room. So funny. I can't take my jumper off, I haven't got anything underneath, it's so funny. Oh no. Well that'd be, it'd just be a different podcast. A very different podcast, yeah. Yeah. Um, so, I've got two shorter stories for you today. Okay. the sort of, kind of women of 2024 sort of. neither of them. Well, actually one is one is quite positive in the end. The other is, you've probably heard about her and it was just heartbreaking and dreadful and awful and it's going to be difficult to take many positives from it. So we're going on an emotional rollercoaster. It's not even a rollercoaster, it's just emotional downhill for the duration. So if you want to tune out now, I'd recommend Ching Shih or the Champagne Lady. So the first lady is, Marlene Fazo, F-E-J-Z-O. Okay. And she is an American scientist. She, went to Brown and Harvard. it's called a PhD. She's a geneticist. Okay. Love that. Already exciting. I've always wanted to be that kind of scientist. It's insane. The fact that your DNA is a blueprint. It's just crazy. And that one, one little thing in DNA could make you a dolphin. It's so delicate, isn't it? Yeah, I'm one third dolphin.

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Thanks. Bye bye. Bye bye.

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So imagine waking up every morning, heart pounding with dread, knowing that the next 24 hours will be a relentless battle against your own body. Every smell, every sight, every thought, a trigger for waves of nausea that leave you gasping for air. This is not a horror movie, it's the reality for many women who suffer from something called hyper omesis gravidarum, or HG for short, conditions so severe it pushes them to the brink of physical and mental exhaustion. So HG is it was often dismissed as being morning sickness on steroids. So, morning sickness, very common. About 70 percent of pregnant women have it. and HG is a very extreme version of that. Okay. And I mean, morning sickness itself is almost a bit of a misconception, because yeah, you have it in the morning, but a lot of the time you have it all through the day as well. Of course. And it's a sort of spectrum of severity. Some people will get it minorly and it can be fixed with a biscuit. And then all the way up to, hyperemesis gravidarum, HG, which I think sort of only really came to people's attention when, Catherine, Princess of Wales, Kate Middleton had it. That's true, she was hospitalized, wasn't she? So she was hospitalized for it, yeah. It's serious, not just because of how debilitating the, sickness, the nausea can be, but also because that then prevents you from eating, prevents you from drinking, so you get malnourished, you get dehydrated, and you, it can sort of escalate to the point where it then, risks not only your health, but that of the foetus as well. So it's a really serious condition. But it's so often in the past just being dismissed as almost psychosomatic or otherwise just exaggerating the symptoms. Because it's women's health. Because it's women's health. A woman. Yeah. And it reminds me, I suppose the sort of closest reminder I've got is, with endometriosis. Yeah. Where that'll so often be written off as, oh, it's just period pain. Oh, you're just, you're just complaining, you're exaggerating the symptoms, et cetera. When actually it's really serious. Medical condition that needs an intervention and they don't get it. they just get dismissed by the doctor. So, Marlena she had two pregnancies. Yeah. Two pregnancies. Yeah. In her first one she had nausea, morning sickness. Okay. It was bad but manageable. But during her second, she then developed hg. Constant vomiting, inability to keep down water, really bad fatigue. It's just a constant oppression to being able to live any sort of normal life. You know what this is making me think of is making me think of our episode on Empress Matilda, who, even though it was in the 1100s, was not able to claim her, constituency, her monarchy. And it was never said, Why? But she was very early in her pregnancy and I You just think morning sickness, don't you? I didn't even think, you know, she could have had something like this. Absolutely. And again, it was just never even considered for historians that it might be something to do with her pregnancy. It was, she didn't want the empire. She wasn't bothered about it. She didn't have enough inclination to go and get it. And actually it could have been something like this. You just can't understate how crippling this is. I mean a lot of the symptoms seem in line with the sort of chronic fatigue symptom, which again has been dismissed for decades, but then post Covid we have long Covid symptoms, so suddenly it has become more accepted. Just an awful thing to happen when you're already feeling vulnerable, when you've already got a lot of stuff changing. And it's a big change. Yeah. Yeah. It's a massive change. Um, so she was sick in her first pregnancy, but then HG sort of hit, in her second pregnancy really, really bad. And. She saw doctors. She knew it wasn't, wasn't right. but the doctors were of no help. They dismissed it. They said she was exaggerating. She was offered little in the way of effective treatment. Um, it was this like cycle of, you feel nauseous, you can't eat or drink, you get dehydrated. That makes you more nauseous. You go downhill. And this is modern medicine, right? This is like 10 years ago. Wow. Yeah, modern medicine. And it's not even that these conditions just get dismissed as an exaggeration, it's that often, and throughout history as well, women are made to feel shame. Like it's their fault. Like period symptoms and things, uh, we'll, we'll shun you away. We'll shut you away for a few days. Cause we don't want to get it. It's a shameful thing that has to be hidden. Honestly. I've got so many flashbacks coming with my time with doctors and, you know, not being listened to and being scared to say what your symptoms are because you just know you're going to be judged and you just know you're going to be dismissed and, and I would say I'm pretty average. You know, I'm not one who's been to a doctor's especially mm-hmm And yeah. I've got so many little ding, ding, ding examples that are coming through. Yeah. Yeah. it was sort of written off as a manifestation of anxiety. No, she wasn't having it. It's like, this is not just in my head. Yeah. she refused to accept it and she knew that there must be some biological reason for why this is happening. There has to be something going on. I think I'm right in saying that she ended up losing that baby, because of this HG, which went untreated and the fetus just couldn't take the stress. She was hospitalized, hooked to an IV. But the doctors remained baffled, whether it was conscious bafflement or subconscious sort of discrimination against her. But She got through it and was just fueled by this harrowing experience she'd had during this pregnancy with a determination to help other women, with this condition and get to the bottom of what's actually going on. Um, yeah. Anger fuels action sometimes, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And. She had some training. Oh, so this was actually back in the late 90s. This happened. So about 25 years ago Which a long time in medicine. It's a long time. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So she started to research and HG Women's health issue. Of course, it was massively understudied. I'll tell you what else you'll find particularly surprising. funding was scarce. Simon, the revelations you're giving me right now. It's shock after shock, isn't it? Um, and like the medical, the medical community as a whole believe in its severity. They weren't convinced about it, they just put it down to whinging and, Marlena actually worked, for a cancer research. company. Cool. Very cool. But decided to leave that and focus her research on HG hyperemesis. So this was already, she was already science y, already stabbed. She was already science y and wanted to just pivot to putting her efforts into HG. And she knew that if she left the cancer research place, other people would research cancer. That would keep on going. But if she didn't leave, nobody else was going to pick up the baton of HG. Actually what it does remind me of as well is Viagra, which was, initially Heavily researched. Heavily funded. Well, it was originally, looked at as, something to help heart conditions and they gave it to so many drug trials. I remember this. Yes. They gave it to a group of men and said, see if it helps your condition and they came back and they said, well, it doesn't help my condition, but I'll tell you what, it has helped an enormous amount. Um. Sexy, sexy. Yeah, exactly. So then it got commercialized for that, but there has been research in recent years about how Viagra can help enormously. with sort of period cramps, period symptoms and everything. It's really effective used on women for, period symptoms. But they never spotted this cause none of the people in the drugs trial were women. Yeah. And it's every medicine. I can't stress this to the women listening to this podcast enough. Your health is not researched. There is nothing that it's getting better, but all the medicines you're having, all those trials they've been through, all men. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then when sort of a breakthrough to find that actually this could be useful, actually getting the funding to then have a full trial and the full research on it is almost impossible. Um, and it's maybe changing very slowly, but it's far slower than it should be. So yeah, Marlena scientific training behind a few by personal experience. She was. persevering with this, she was going to get to the bottom of HG. So she started reaching out to other women who had this condition, collected their stories, collected their medical histories. And with her training as a geneticist, most importantly, she collected their DNA. She thought the key to unlocking this must be hidden in their DNA somewhere, because this is a real thing that's happening and it's ruining people's lives. she wanted to get to the bottom. So initially she was just going around finding people who'd had it and asking them for a swab of saliva. The classic system. The classic system. In terms of, medical research. It's, this is quite a labor intensive way to do it and it's not enough of a sample pool. And it's not controlled either, is it? It's just these women have these things. Yeah. So she launched a campaign to get these saliva samples. She sent out thousands of DNA kits across the country, did what she could to research it, pulled over the data patterns and things. But her real breakthrough came when she came across, probably heard of it, an Ancestry company, DNA testing company, 23andMe. I do, yeah. Which is, I think, bigger in the States than it is here in the UK. She spoke with them and they really got on board with her, planned with her cause and agreed that they would include in their questionnaire, questions about HG. Okay. So, suddenly She went from having to post out swabs to get people's saliva, to having an enormous database of women reporting that they'd suffered with this. And she had their DNA, and she could use it for the research. So And it was all done legally, right? All done legally, yeah. Yeah, immediately my head's like So she began poring over all of this data, searching for these patterns, the sort of genetic variations, that could indicate and explain why some people, why some women are more susceptible to this illness. She pinpointed the gene. It's a gene, GDF15, which plays a really crucial role in regulating nausea and vomiting, and it's to do with appetite as well. And she found that women with certain variations of this gene are far, far more likely to suffer from HG. Like, she'd, was almost this watershed moment for her, because she had proven that it was a physiological condition, not a psychological condition, not something that's been measured. Yes! Pre measured in the day. Like, here it is, I've pinpointed, this is what causes it. and now we can do something about it, like we've, we found out what caused it, now we can start working on a fix. There's no better feeling than it's not in your head. Yeah. It's just nothing better, it's the best line. If you're unwell to begin with, you don't need to be gaslit as well. Yeah. Just 101, innit? Just a bit of empathy would go a long way. Yeah, totally. One of our main findings was that this gene is responsible for the production of a hormone which you produce. loads of during pregnancy. Ah, that's interesting. But with a variation in this, before you're pregnant, you produce very, very little of it. Yeah. And they suspect that this hit of going from very, very little to having absolutely loads is what sort of shocks your body into having this, this HG or this nausea, this morning sickness response. So she's now working on developing drugs that increase the production of this hormone gradually. In the run up to you getting pregnant so that when you do get pregnant, it's less of a jump and therefore has less of an impact on you. Mm-hmm. She's gone on to co-found, the Hyperemesis Education and Research Foundation. The her foundation. Yeah. Which Clever is just a real, has gotta be something, isn't it? Which is a real lifeline for women struggling with hg. she's sort of tireless advocate for it, raising awareness of the condition, pushing for better treatments, pushing for. a better awareness of it amongst healthcare professionals. She sounds an angel, like she sounds an angel. Incredible. Amazing. I'm just like giving a voice to these people who've been silenced and denied and gaslit for so, so long. Yeah. And where is this? She's American. She's American. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Whose health system is notoriously, even more difficult. Yeah. It's a beast. So yeah, good for her, that's insane. That's great, isn't it? So she's persevered, used her own personal issues in combination with her training and everything to really push on and she's still working on it today. and I suppose really the, the closer for this little mini expose on Marlena, if you are struggling with HG, check out the Her Foundation website and yeah. Now married to a currently pregnant woman who has had really bad morning sickness. It's such an isolating thing, but you are not alone. You're not imagining it. There is help. You should talk to someone about your symptoms. Yes. And tell your friends. Tell anyone that will listen to you because if you're suffering it, your friends might suffer from it. And at least then they know that that's an option. And this is the thing. Like so many, I say woman, so many things you, you think. It's just me. And it's never, tell your girlfriends, tell your mum, tell any female that will listen, that will listen to you. And, yeah. Spread that because, we're the first generation, I think, who talks about smear tests and talking about all that and try and normalise it because there's so much there that you need to know about your own body. So yeah, just talk and talk and talk and talk. Just a body and it's just a body that does things that bodies do. It's not something to be embarrassed or ashamed of. Just talk about it, get it out there. And you'll feel better. You'll feel better telling someone. Yeah, definitely. I do. Yeah. And it might be that they're suffering with it or it might be that they They know someone. They know someone and even by sharing it you may make someone else not feel alone in this. Or recognise something in themselves. and if you do speak to someone, I'm not knocking our local doctors. I haven't any complaints, but Speak to your midwife. Speak to the midwife. Find out the, there's usually like an emergency gynecology, section, unit in the hospital that will help with this, who are aware of it and will be on it, certainly here in the UK. Don't be a martyr. Public Service Announcement. We're very good at these. That's our little PSA for today. Yeah, absolutely. Fab! So, that's actually quite an uplifting one. I'm gonna, as the sort of second half of this double build mini, I would like to talk about Giselle Pellico. Yeah, I'm going to be discussing pretty severe, sexual assault, sexual abuse, the justice system, drugging. spousal abuse, all of these. So if you've got little ones or if this is going to be particularly triggering for you, I would advise, uh, rate, like, and subscribe and we'll see you next time. Anyway, and we'll see you next time. Absolutely. Yeah. It's an important story though. Let's go. Yeah. I think, Giselle Pellico, she's actually, that was her married name, which she's now dismissed. is my woman of 2024 just for her astounding, bravery and bucking the norm, bucking the trend and just the way she's conducted herself in, it's just horrific. It's absolutely horrific. It was about September last year. My main source of this from, for this is four months of reporting and following the story, really closely. It's been. compelling and horrifying in equal measure. Giselle was, lived in a small French town called Mazan, which from the outside seemed like a totally ordinary small town, full of totally ordinary people and builders and plasterers and bank managers and shop assistants and just a town, a totally nondescript, normal French town. And she lived there with her husband. She was a loving wife, devoted mother, son and a daughter. She was a respected member of her community. But behind all of this, and she didn't know about it, was just an absolute betrayal and violation, which when it came out has shocked, I would say shocked the world, but particularly shocked France. Yeah, it shocked the world, 100%. It definitely did, it stretched and you can see that in like the subculture movements that have happened that people are redesigning time of the year magazine covers with her face on and, if Instagram's your thing, there's a huge commentary on there of women who, from all different cultures all over the world, standing with Giselle. She was born in 1952, had a stable, stable, warm, earlier years, met her future husband, Dominique, in her youth and they built a life together, as many people do, many people wish to. They raised two children, had decades of what she thought was a happy marriage, normal home life, just very typical. But she didn't know that Dominique was a, a total predator. Just hiding in plain sight. in 2020, Dominique was arrested for upskirting. So, upskirting is where you take a photo of a woman's skirt. Um, he And got illegalized so late. Yeah, it was only a few years ago in the UK, wasn't it? Yeah, 2018, something like that, horrendously late. Yeah, I remember at the time there were lots of stories about, like people being upskirted at music festivals and Glastonbury and things. And off the back of that, there was a lot of campaigning and finally made illegal. I think it was made illegal in Scotland before England. Yeah. But yeah, the police arrested him over this. Okay. And he's Used his phone to take pictures. They thought maybe he's done this before. There was a criminal psychologist interviewed him over this particular crime, but just knew something wasn't right with him. Couldn't pinpoint it, but just got the impression that this was a man with two very clear and very different sides to his personality and that he was doing a very good job of performing as this. Typical, laid back, nice, genial. Bumbly man, yeah. He's lovely, but he really, he had such a strong inclination that there was this other side to him. So he, encouraged the police to investigate further. That's interesting. And the police then looked on his computer, um, and what they found on his computer was a very well catalogued, collection of videos and images spanning a period of nine years of him and other people raping his wife, Giselle, while she appeared to be, in all of the videos, unconscious. So the investigation got deeper. Obviously, this is a more serious issue now than upskirting. The word that really stood out for that, for me, that was well categorized. This is just a dirty little thing. This is like you said, a completely different personality, like a complete part of his identity. Totally. This is not an opportunist crime. This is not someone taking advantage of a drunk woman on a night out. This is. Someone who has meticulously planned and organised and arranged this over and over again. Yeah, that's, it actually sent me into a bit, like a bit of a shiver. Yeah, the idea that, like how many hours did he invest in that? Yeah. So it's like nine years that he was doing this for. Nine years that Giselle had absolutely no idea about it. So, what would happen is he would slip drugs into her food or drink. Giselle would go unconscious and he would then invite other men around within around a 40 mile radius of Mazan. And he would get men in, he would advertise on particular websites. to come and rape his wife. A particular website. And he would then film it and, he would film it, catalogue it, and we're not talking about one or two, this is dozens, this is over 50 strangers that he invited to do this. Giselle, such was the effectiveness of the drugs, had absolutely no idea that this was happening. She knew something was going on. was up, but she couldn't explain the medical condition. She couldn't explain why she was sore, why she ached, why she kept getting UTIs, these sort of recurring things. Hearing this straight off the back of Marlena is so, like, their stories match so well. Because again, it's women not being listened to. And, this surely should ring some alarm bells. If you have, I can't speak on behalf of the medical profession, but if you have something, something unexplained, there has to be an explanation. You can't just write this off as a, that science is a fundamental, isn't it? Yeah. It had to be a reason behind this. It might've been, I don't know if she, I don't even know how you could have an inclination that this was happening, such is the horrific nature of it. You would never think that. You're safe in your own home, in your own bed, with your own husband. Where on earth would your brain go? Oh, people are traveling from a 40 mile radius. Yeah. To attack me. You just wouldn't, would you? You just wouldn't. No. Um, so, these details were found by the police and investigated and the investigation took a long time because there were so many, so many abusers. Okay. there's over 50 men. Fortunately, Dominique had recorded all of them, so they could all be identified. They're all on film. And then finally, last year, 2024, the trial began. Now, the sort of the norm in these cases is that the woman has anonymity. Yep. And, and reporting is not allowed, particularly in France, reporting is not allowed on these cases. it's, so it goes back for me to this victim blaming, victim shaming, for some reason the victim should be ashamed about something that someone else has done to them. Even though this is not her, this is not her fault. She should not be ashamed of it, but so often, particularly with sexual assault cases, this is what happens. And people don't want to open themselves up to the usual accusations that come along of like, Oh, it wasn't, Oh, it's your fault for being drunk. It's your fault for wearing that is et cetera. But she refused the anonymity and allowed full reporting of the trial and for all of her details to be out there. Um, it's incredible. just the strength that must've taken to. Walk into that courtroom, and she was there every day. In that courtroom, sat opposite her husband, sat opposite all of the accused, listening to these stories, watching the replays of what her husband had done. And that was a big part of the prosecution is because these men have been recorded, so there's no, there was no possibility of denial by them that they had been involved. I think this is the reason why she's Woman of 2024 because that testament to that, her character, because she'll be ripping apart inside in ways I can't even imagine. She'll be absolutely torn down. Yeah. And then, to make a historically significant decision that, ripples. It will ripple through the globe of other decisions being made by other women to make sure that they're stood up for in legal systems. And that is awe inspiring. It's, it's out of this world she made that decision. Yeah. On her own, independently, no one coerced her into doing that, I think it's, yeah, it's uh, the gravity. Yeah, and she would have known what she was getting involved in by going to the court case every day. But to find that sort of inner strength and conviction to actually not hide away from it and show to the world that she is a, survivor of it and that she is coming out the other side of this. When her entire life, her entire world has been undermined, ripped apart. Yeah, like the whole concept of her loving marriage was a flop. She waived her right to anonymity, story shared around the world, I mean, in terms of true crime reporting, this was a hell of a story to be reported, a difficult read every day that there was an update, but just such a powerful statement from her, she actually said, I am not a victim, I am a survivor, One of the sort of biggest impacts that it seems to have had is the normality and mundanity of the men who were accused. These were not You think of like the image, I don't remember the sort of program Brass Eye from years ago and so, so many times like a sex pest is always pictured in an anorak and creeping around in an alleyway. With the moustache and the skinny and the yeah, I don't know. Creepy people look creepy. Creepy creepy. Actually, these people didn't look creepy. These were normal men. These were men who had, one of the things I find most sickening is they had daughters. And yet they were, everyone's, you know, got a mum, lots of people have daughters and sisters. But what she's done in making that decision that we just spoke about was the world, Women have known that sex pests look normal. We've known that for centuries. The world didn't know that. And I think that is just another, string to her bow of what she's achieved and now the world hopefully listens and should know because they were electricians weren't they, firefighters, civil servants, electricians, plumbers, firefighters, shop workers, Just, just your town. A normal, totally normal town, normal people with normal family lives. And then behind this, I mean, the main defense that a lot of them tried, some just, pled guilty to it. Because of the video. So they couldn't deny that part of it. The main part that they tried to deny was the rape aspect of it. And they claimed that it was part of a sort of sexual fantasy and she was pretending to be unconscious. That defense did not fly. And they've, yeah. I'm pretty sure that most, if not all of them have been sentenced to prison time. Yeah. and just the movement that she started, this sort of empowerment that she's given to women to reclaim their lives, question. Reclaim, love that, reclaim. Actually, this is weird, and I'm going to stand up for it. I'm not going to be the victim. yeah, I think it's led to legal reforms in France, so extra protections for victims of sexual violence, holding perpetrators accountable, the actual definition of rape in France was slightly Was it? Oh. So they had some work to do in the prosecution to fit the crimes into that definition. Oh, seriously? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. But So she's up against a not fit for purpose justice system as well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but came out of it victorious. I think both in the legal sense and dignified. Dignity is the big thing here. I don't really know how to conclude this other than she's absolutely incredible. I find it harrowing how I am a man. That's not the bit I find harrowing. Um, but like, I am a man, I would consider myself pretty normal. And I know lots of other pretty normal men. Yeah. And this case was full of pretty normal men. Yeah. And just how these people with. Families, daughters, sisters, mothers could dehumanize this and feel such a sense of entitlement and do whatever sort of logical leaps to justify this to themselves, to make it acceptable. Did they pay for it? No. No, it was just a ego grinding. I don't think so. I just wonder if there was any financial gain for him. Like, what's he getting out? I don't understand what he got out of that at all as a husband. I just, I don't. He did post the videos online. So videos and pictures posted on the internet. So for likes and follows and, um, validation. I don't know, like instant gratification, isn't it? Um, Hmm. I see. I see. I see. So yeah, absolutely horrific and she's incredible. And I think this will be one of those stories that's really lasting. I really hope so, because this is already a few weeks ago now, didn't it? It concluded just before Christmas. And you're right, the BBC did a great job of, Because I remember the day where all the convictions came and you know when they like tweet? Yeah, and it was just one after the other after the the the scale of doing it like that rather than here's boom here's a list they were doing it in lifetime and the scale was astronomical. It was just so, it's never ending. It's never ending. It really emphasises it. And of course there was an embargo on naming and giving details of the accused until the trial was over. And this was around as well when the Al Fayed Harrods accusations came out as well. And like that was, and when Trump got elected, that was happening. So we've got a U S president who has openly assaulted women and has been honest about that and open about that. Like this is what is interesting that you think it's going to last. I I'm less certain, but I really hope so. Logic dictates, it's got to. Yeah, logic, I totally get that. I think we should have like an annual Giselle day, like a celebration on the day that the trial ended. But actually, she probably doesn't want that. She probably just wants her life to carry on, to just stop. Yeah, let's see what sort of life she can now recover and make for herself. I did read somewhere that she purposely used her married name in the trial. So her grandchildren in particular didn't feel, so they had something to hold on to. Because. She has changed it back to her maiden name now, but she didn't want them to be ashamed of the name, and I think that, again, that is testament to her strength and the dignity and she must be stretched beyond belief, but she's still beautifully dignified throughout, yeah, we can't really do it justice, I don't think. Everything I say I feel is just isn't enough, like, Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. It's the sort of thing you need if you haven't followed it closely or read about it, if you think you can bear it. I would encourage you to do so, particularly our male listeners. It sort of pains me to say that, but give it a listen and just let it sort of mull and sit with you and realize the implications. Yeah. Really feel that. Feel that uncomfortableness. Yeah, for sure. Well done. Oh, there we are. for listening. If you stuck with us through that, thank you very much. please, comment, rate, subscribe, all the usual, if you've been affected by any of the issues discussed in this podcast, there are places to reach out to. And I think maybe it might be good if we put some on our website. Insta page and Facebook. We'll put some in the show notes. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, there's help. A hundred percent. You're not alone. Thank you. We'll have something a bit lighter next week. We'll find something. Thanks very much guys. Bye. Thanks for listening. Bye.