21. She Changed History LIVE! Savitribai Phule and Grace Hopper

She Changed History Live: Celebrating Revolutionary Women

In this special live episode recorded at the Open University's International Women's Day celebrations, hosts Vicki and Simon of the 'She Changed History' podcast present two inspiring stories of women who have shaped history. Vicki shares the extraordinary life of Savitribai Phule, an Indian social reformer who championed education for lower caste girls and fought against societal injustices in 19th century India. Simon recounts the groundbreaking achievements of Grace Hopper, a pioneering computer scientist whose work laid the foundations for modern programming languages and made computing more accessible. The episode features an engaging introduction by Jo Dyer, Director of Learner and Discovery Services at the Open University, and includes insightful discussions on gender barriers, education, and the enduring impact of these remarkable women.

00:00 Introduction and Special Episode Announcement
00:50 Opening Remarks by Jo Dyer
01:42 Introduction to She Changed History Podcast
02:33 Audience Participation and Famous Women in History
04:35 Savitri Bai Phule: Early Life and Marriage
07:39 Educational Reforms and Challenges
14:58 Social Reforms and Legacy
20:35 Empowerment Through Education
21:45 Introducing Grace Hopper
22:46 Early Life and Education
25:18 Pioneering Work in Computer Science
27:28 The First Compiler and Beyond
33:56 Legacy and Influence
39:27 Final Thoughts and Reflections

Transcript

0:08

Hi everyone, this is Vicki from, she Changed History. We've got a different episode for you today. So as part of International Women's Day, which was on the 8th of March, we were asked by the Open University to present at their International Women's Day celebrations last week. So what you're gonna hear is that episode, which, uh, was done live in front of an audience, um, we are very grateful to be Lon. We had a lovely time. You hear. An introduction by Joe Dyer, a director at the Open University, and then you'll hear the episode that we recorded. I've got a story for you followed by Simon's story and yeah, we had a great time. Hopefully you enjoy it too. Welcome. Thank you everybody for coming today. My name is Jo Dyer. I'm the Director of Learner and Discovery Services at The Open University and I'm absolutely delighted to be introducing this podcast as part of our amazing International Women's Week of events. Um, got some great people in the room listening and people online, so welcome to you too. This is just an awesome podcast. I was a real history geek when I was growing up, particularly loved the Tudor period. Not the men, not Henry VIII. I was interested in his wives, the women and what they were doing. Um, so nothing could be more fitting for me than to introduce this podcast of She Changed History. Hell yes she did. And I'm delighted to introduce my colleagues here who are going to share with you some of the things, some of the amazing women in the past and what they have done. So settle in. and listen to some great stories. Thank you. Hi, Vicky. Hi, Simon. Hi, everyone. Yeah, all right. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of weird and wonderful being here rather than I'm normally in my spare room surrounded by dirty laundry, well clean laundry. Yeah, yeah, so it's quite a different setup for us. We're very lucky, thank you so much for being here and watching us do this and yeah, it's gonna be quite a fun hour I think. Don't promise too much. So, The podcast, She Changed History, we've been doing it since November and it is exactly what it says on the tin, isn't it? We talk about people who have changed history, specifically women, but women who were written out of history either because men took their credit or either because, you know, people don't care. So we thought it's about time to shed light on that. Yeah, so if we think of audience participation already, if you think of sort of famous women who've changed history, does anyone spring to mind? Yeah. for you, however far back you want to go. Anything. Ada Lovelace. Yep. She's on the list. Yeah. Marie Curie, Rosa Parks. Absolutely. Yeah. We also put Betty Boothroyd down because that's where we are today. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And Jenny Liu. So there are certainly these, this sort of headline figures that get a lot of the attention, but also behind that there are Should have been Nobel Prize winners and just as we're finding hundreds and thousands of various women who've had no recognition throughout history. either at the time or since and they're the sort of people that we're really trying to to highlight and we try and highlight a lot of women who go against that sort of unconscious bias that tends to be in place. So if we think of a pirate you would tend to think of beardy, peg legged, rum drinking old man, not a Chinese pirate queen. Yeah. Or if you think of someone who saved thousands of Jewish children in World War II, you would probably think of Schindler. Schindler, yeah, rather than Irina Sendler who did one of our early episodes, I think that was the first one we recorded, wasn't it? And so she's an incredible Polish woman whose story only came to light because of two American schoolgirls doing a school project who then uncovered her decades long project to save thousands of Polish children during World War II and reunite them with their families after the war. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So, Bearing all that in mind, this is exactly what the podcast do. Shall we give you some women today to learn to? Brilliant. We've got one story each. There'll be 10 15 minutes and, um, we think they're pretty exciting. So we think hopefully you will too. So my story today is, Savitri by Fule and I've got a little intro for you. So, imagine a nine year old bride in a land bound by colonization confines. Savitri by Fule, born into oppression, ignited a revolution. From illiterate child up to To fearless educator, she shattered caste and gender barriers, defying a century of British rule. This is her story, one of courage, defiance, and the birth of modern India. So we're going to India, guys. Very exciting. It's a strong intro. No pressure. Sources today, I found an article in India today, in the Economic Times, in the India Express. Britannica, which we use all the time, love that website, and a BBC article as well. So, Savidrupoy Phule was born in 1831, so January the 3rd, 1831, in Naigon, which is a small village in the Bombay province of India. Um, It's a really poor, very highly marginalized part of India, uh, was back then. And as was common at the time, she was married at just the age of nine, just an absolute baby. She was married off to Jyoti Thao Phule, and she moved to Pune, which is now called Pune in India. And she was illiterate at the time of marriage, so it was very rare for children to get any sort of education, especially girls at that time. Uh, just to give you an idea of India at that time, do you know much about India at that time? Not a great deal. Okay, so we were there. Britain was there. We were ruling there. Yeah, it would be another hundred years before we got independence. Uh, India got independence. Because of that, the British East India Company kind of dominated that region. You had local rulers there. So some India rulers did remain in place and they had a little bit of autonomy. But that, it was a real power tussle between that and the Brits. There was a car system. So I'd say think of that like our social hierarchy, but much stricter with no chance of moving through that hierarchy. That's still a big thing today, isn't it? In India? Yeah, and sort of darker skin colours. Oh, is it? Tend to get more discriminated against, yeah. God. there was high taxes and land ownership. So, um, Zimmar, Zamindari system, which was implemented by the British, and it basically took land off traditional landowners, right? So, that is what Savitra buys up against right and she's nine and she's been carted off through marriage. She marries, um, Joe Tito Who was also a child at the time. I think he was slightly older Yeah, but he was one step up he had gone through primary school so he had a little bit of knowledge and he was so impressed With, uh, Savitribai's enthusiasm, thirst for knowledge, um, that he actually taught her to read and write as a kid. How cute is that? So you've got these two little kids, one teaching the other. Um, he encouraged her throughout and subsequently Savitribai went through training to become a teacher. She did two courses and became a qualified teacher in 1847. Some of the schools that she taught to be a teacher at are still there today. And, um, Because of this, which is probably not a surprise, um, Jyoti Thao's family ostracized them. So they were kicked out of their home for, um, Savitri by learning. Sort of the disgrace of her having the gall. Yeah. Yeah. How easy was it for her to train as a teacher? It's really, we'll go on to a little bit of her challenges. Um, but it is very, I imagine it was really difficult and I imagine because there wasn't any resources there. And I can imagine just in my head it's just two kids sat like by candlelight teaching each other. You know what I mean, that's where it started, that real innocent kind of vibe. Um, yeah, they did get kicked out and it was basically because of their attempts to challenge that status quo because they just wanted to be a little bit different and he could see how much she loved learning. Um, when they did get kicked out. There is another lady who this story isn't about, but I really want to give her a name check. Her name's Fatima Sheik. And, um, if Savitri Bai isn't known about, Fatima is really, really not known about. Like, she's like another layer down. Um, because she's so important because she supported them. So the reason that Savitri Bai has achieved so much is because she had her friend there helping her wherever she could. So women supporting women, right? Um, so she actually went to live, they went to live with Fatima for a little bit. Then in 1848, um, the couple, so Jyoti Thao and Savitri Bhai opened a school for lower caste girls in Bywada, Pune. And their first year they had six students. girls attend school, so they opened a school for six little girls. Even smaller than Forrester Deane schools. Um, but how I can just see these little girls sat cross legged on the floor, you know, amazing. So that's like, would have been the only opportunity that those girls had. What a lifeline. Only school. Such a lifeline. The next year, so 1849, you'll find throughout this story, the years go so quick. Um, they opened a school for adults next and they accepted children, sorry, students from all castes. So it doesn't matter. So they were dismantling that system that I spoke about earlier. Her work was, shocker, met with widespread hostility. Especially from orthodox barmen who did not want to disrupt any of the status quo. They were like, we've always done it this way, this is the way. Um, Savitri Dukbhai was often verbally abused. She, on the way to work, she would have stones, mud and dung thrown at her on her way into work. It just comes up so much, doesn't it? You can't just leave someone do their thing. We've got to try and take them, take them down. Yeah. Almost all of our stories. And imagine coming into work today and being covered with dung, right? It got so bad that she had to then go to work. bring a spare sari with her. So she would come get to work and then have to change her clothes and then start her day. You just can't imagine it, can you? It's absolutely disgusting. Um, by 1851, they had actually launched three schools, uh, with 150 female students involved. It's not 100 percent clear how they're resourcing this. Um, I tried, but I couldn't really find out, but they What they were really clever at as a couple is that they wanted these girls to go to school and they wanted them to succeed. So to minimize dropout rates, um, at the schools, they actually offered stipends to the students. So they would pay for the students to be there and make sure that they're not losing any earnings or anything like that. Yeah. Where did that money come from? I've written, my next sentence says, it's not clear where the money came from. It says, um, it's not clear if she was using her own salary as a teacher or if she galvanized other people or if it was like a community setting. It's really unclear. This sounds like a passion project. This is a lifestyle for her, isn't it? Not just a career choice. Um, And you're exactly right. It's who she was as a person. I'm going to share with you some other things that she did. And you can see that if we take anything, live by your values. So over the next six years, um, there was a period where, um, GT, GT towel fell ill and savvy true by was visiting her home family. So, and there's a letter from GT. Gigi t to um, saying, I'm really worried about the school. What are we gonna do about the girls? I can't get there. And she was like, don't worry, fat has got this. So, you know, that lady I spoke about earlier, I just wanted to make that there, but she was the underlying current that kept these schools going, which I thought that was amazing. Um, on top of building this community, they wanted to help, um, these C cars. So the next thing they did was, since lower castes were forbidden from using a common village well, So they weren't allowed to use the well in the middle of the village. They were like, well, sod this, we'll go and open our own well. And in their back garden, they built a well. So that meant that anyone, no matter what caste you were from, could use the water from that well, because they wanted people to feel included in society. These revolutionary acts weren't without backlash. And there was a lot of press. They were kind of getting a reputation for being this kind of couple. Revolutionary act being, um, Providing a well between suicide. Yes. So true. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but this courage and this determination became a cornerstone of savvy true PA's, uh, legacy. Um, despite all the sphere opposition, they opened 18 schools for girls in Pona, uh, in the region. And Savvy Trpa was declared the best teacher in the Bombay presidency, which was by an English. in 1852. So she was recognized and she set the foundations for women's education in India. So some recognition from the establishment. Masses. She's really, really well thought of in, uh, in India. And. Her work wasn't limited to the classroom, so she wrote and published poetry. So that little girl who was like learning when she was really young, just genuinely loved learning. And all her poetry covered things from equality, self respect, inspiring generations of women to rise above discrimination. Her writings weren't just expressive, um, for creativity, they were also revolutionary tools. Like that word again, galvanise other people. One of her, um, poems I've written down here was called Go Get Education. Which I thought was so lovely. Um, you could totally see her using that in a lesson, couldn't you? Absolutely. And it just shows that she had these consistent values all the way throughout her life. So, um, So, she's helping schoolgirls, she's helping low class people get fresh water. She's also helping widows. She affected all parts of societies. For example, when a disparate widow's health began to fail, Savitri Paiyoh did something remarkable. She didn't just offer compassion, she stepped in and raised that woman's child as her own, along with her husband. That boy grew up. His name was Yashwan and he became a beacon of hope for the region because he trained to be a doctor. Um, and he kind of symbolized everything she had been working towards, I guess, is because, you know, he was then going to have another generation in terms of health. Um, this story of her adopting Yashwan symbolizes her fight against the stigma surrounding widows and their children. That's because At the time, widowhood, if you lost your husband, meant social exclusion and it meant humiliation. Like it was their fault. And it, yeah, and that crops up in, again, we seem to have had a lot of widows in our story. We do like a widow. Yeah, we do like a widow. A Victorian widow. Yeah, we like it when the men go. That's our wheelhouse. Yeah. But often they wouldn't be allowed to carry on living where they are, couldn't run a business, all sorts that they wouldn't be able to do just because they're a widow. Yeah, Laurie's very good at that. Recognizing you when you're inside a marriage when you're outside of marriage. It's like you don't exist and Well back to back Victorian ish times And at the same here, so legislation was passed in 1856 to actually allow the remarriage So if you lost your child And after 1856, she could remarry. Hallelujah. So, um, she even fought against the practice of child marriage. Like I said, she was married off at nine. So, you know, she clearly wasn't happy about that, which is fair. Um, she built a large shelter for widows. um, and child brides cast aside for their families and provided education for them. So not only was she like, come in, she was like, come in, I'll educate you. I'll make your life so much better than you could ever be. Um, she also campaigned against sati, which is the practice of a widow sacrificing themselves on their deceased husband's pyre, which is where they burn the corpse. It's quite a dark practice. Sorry, I thought you said then that the widow would jump on her husband's pyre. Um, it was a practice that was abolished in 1829, but it was still prevalent in Sabati's time. But, all she was doing did trickle through all parts of society. So she's, like I said, children, facilities, older generations. And also, because this did trickle through society, other people followed suit. So the MP, um, Darbahai, Naya Roshi opened a school for girls at the same time and again even he earned a huge wrath of, a huge wrath from orthodox Indian men as well. Not only that, Savitri Bhai used her marriage as a blueprint and started the practice of marry, marrying without a dowry or without a priest, so marrying for love, heaven forbid. Um, and then she, This marriage that she, um, publicised was called Satya Sodhak, which is basically taking an oath in favour of education and equality. So it was like, yes, we can marry, but I want to value my education. Jyoti Thao died, her husband died in 1890, and then, so that made her her widow herself. But even in this moment, Savitri Bhai defied expectations and social conventions, and she was the one who lit the fire of cremation, which is normally a role reserved for men. And didn't jump on it. No, she didn't. Um, On top of that, she's just made on top of that. She then, um, a bubonic plague epidemic hit in 1897. She just carried on being a nurse in that time. She was like, well, now I'm going to look after them as well. Um, she had a shelter that she worked with her son, Yashwan, because he's a doctor now. And, um, she set up and cared for patients. Tragically, this is the end of the life. She contracted the disease while she was helping those patients, um, while serving others and died. But her life is a testament of selfless service, just helping other people, right? Um, her legacy, like we said, she was recognized in her lifetime, which is quite rare for some of our women that we talk about. Um, But also that carried on after she, she died as well. So in 1983, Poon City Corporation erected a monument in her honor. She's got a stamp. Oh, we love a stamp. She was given a stamp in her honor in 1998. Um, the University of Poon actually changed its name to the Savitribai Phule Poon University in 2015. And she's got a Google Doodle. Um, and her, this is my favourite thing, her birthday is now known as Girl Child Day in India. So it's a whole day dedicated to little girls in India. That's pretty cool, isn't it? And that is the story of Savi Chiray Phule. Love it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really empowering the, uh, seems a bit of an obvious thing to say when we're sat in the OU, but this focus on education and the power that that then gives these people to bring themselves up as well. and probably why it was so intimidating and people wanted to bring them down and not adjust that status quo. And it's interconnectedness, isn't it? It's all the, all the different parts of people's lives that she affected and gave to other people, gave a leg up. It's pretty cool. Thank you, Vicky. We got any questions or comments? Sorry about that. Any questions, any comments? Was there a practice for the husbands to jump on the pyre if their wives died? I'm not even going to build any mystery. I'm just going to talk about Grace Hopper today, who's someone I've been dying to do for quite some time. She was a quite remarkable woman, very small woman, but remarkable, um, who made these groundbreaking, groundbreaking contributions to computer science back in the days when computers were still large mechanical. Machines with mechanical valves. I think people know Grace Hopper. Oh, we've got Grace Hopper fans. Yeah in the house If I say Grace you say Yeah, she really sort of laid many of the foundations for modern programming as we know it now and had a great influence on, um, a couple of particular programming languages, some of which are powered banks up until quite recently. Um, and again, a real focus on education as well. We'll come on to that. It's like we planned it. It's nice. We're very good. It's all lined up pretty well. Yeah. So Grace was born Grace Brewster Murray on December 9th in 1906 in New York City. And from a young age she was always curious about Everything, wanted to know how everything worked, wanted to know how everything worked so much that she was keen to take it apart. So her mum walked in one day and found, I don't know why one house had seven alarm clocks, but all seven of them were dismantled on the kitchen table because Grace wanted to find out. And it's sort of difficult to be annoyed about that. You want to encourage your child to be inquisitive. But you also need to get up for work. You need to get up for work, yeah. So she was, um. She was allowed to have one alarm clock that she could play around with and dismantle. Um, her father really encouraged her to pursue a good, a good education and envisage a career and really push through with that. He was in quite ill health, so was worried he wouldn't always be able to provide for the family. Um, and then in 1928, so age 22, um, she graduated Phi Beta Kappa. Okay. Yeah. Woo. Yeah. Uh, from Vassar College, uh, with degrees in mathematics and physics, and, and, and a 1930 and a PhD in maths in 1934 from Yale. Which is a really key time, isn't it, for STEM, that kind of era? Yeah. And it was actually quite a, I'm not saying it was easy for her, but that particular time was quite a good time for women in mathematics and physics and coming on to, um, you know, Um, like the birth of computing, particularly code breaking. Um, a lot of the development around that, the companies and the researchers were just looking for people who were good at solving puzzles and it didn't matter what background you came from or what gender you were. If you had the right mind, you could get into that field. It should just be, yeah, it shouldn't be this strange concept. So while pursuing her PhD at Yale, she insisted that she still kept teaching at Vassar College. She wanted to keep educating others, even though she had her own thing to pursue. And had an admiration for the Navy, as some of her family had been in the Navy in prior generations. And she quit at one point, she also quite liked the colour blue, so was keen to join the Navy. But was Not allowed to join the Naval Reserves initially because she was too little. Okay. She was a very slight woman and she was 15 pounds underweight to be in the Naval Reserves. How tall was she, do we know? Uh, I'm going to say three foot two, but that's probably not accurate. Um, She fought back against this and then eventually in World War II was allowed to join the US Naval Reserves, where because of her background in maths and physics, she was assigned to the Bureau of Ordnance Computation Project at Harvard University. So, Harvard had an early computer that they imaginatively called the Mark I. It was their first, and it was an enormous electromechanical calculator that they used for calculations. calculating ordnance trajectories and other things. And we call it a computer, but it's very, very different. I mean, probably the picture most of us have seen is, um, Bletchley Park, things in there, but these are, still has transistors, but those transistors are large vacuum tubes and the computer is programmed mechanically. And so her combination of physics and her engineering expertise combined with the mathematics to. Come up with the algorithms. just made her absolutely perfect for this job. And she wrote the first ever computer manual, which was a manual on, a manual of operation for the automatic sequence controlled calculator. Um, yeah. Uh, which detailed how to operate, um, this machine. And incidentally, uh, although she didn't come up with the term, the term for a bug in computing and computer code, Came from this machine. Uh, it wasn't working as expected, and they found a moth trapped in a relay, and hence Computerberg. Computer moth. She was offered a full professorship at Vassar College after the war, but turned that down to continue her work with computers. It's like she had a lightbulb moment seeing that there's something in here that maybe computers could be the next big thing. Um, and this very sort of nascent field of computer science. And she wanted to pursue this more and educate more people in its potential. So she starts working programming, um, worked on the first commercial electronic computer, which was the Univac one, uh, around 1949. And then in 1952, she wrote the first compiler, uh, which is software that converts code that humans can maybe understand into the code that the computer understands. It's amazing. In order to run. And this was the first, um, having tried to write code on a self serve to do like it. No, it's so complex, isn't it? Yeah, it's really specialized. And I mean, machine code sort of the most basic you are telling each of those sort of memory locations and transistors in the chip what to do. So it's, it's amazing. enormously complicated and you do really need a doctorate in mathematics or Well that's what I was thinking, it's so high skilled, isn't it? It is like you have, especially in that time, you would have to be at the top of your game. Absolutely. Top. Yeah, so she made a compiler, which made it slightly easier for some other people. They could write in a slightly higher level language, which made slightly more sense. And then the compiler would deal with figuring out how to make the computer actually do what you want it to. So she wrote the thing, wrote the compiler. Yeah, but her big idea, the big sort of revolution that she kicked off was the idea of being able to program in a language that was In English and was words rather than before then it was sort of almost purely algebraic notation. You needed a degree in mathematics to understand all of these operations that you were putting in to understand what the code if a lay person were to look at it, it would make no sense. And she felt that this was a real barrier to a wider adoption of computers and what they could offer to all of industry. Is this related to what we spoke about with a little play? You know, she wrote the algorithm. So she did write it out. Yeah. Yeah. She's sort of This is like the next level. Or is it different? I guess so. Ada was slightly different in that she was not typing a language, but she was still having to figure out the algorithm. Yeah. So this is sort of how you translate that algorithm into something the computer understands. We did an episode on Ada Lovelace. Not long ago, did we? Not that long, no. And you had a fabulous time just geeking out about everything to do. I think it took us about three hours to record. It was such a long recording. And this other thing that she did, yeah. Um, oh, we even found the diagram, didn't we, of her actual algorithm. Oh, we did, that was really funny. Yeah, absolutely indecipherable. Um, so Grace had this idea that rather than just purely using what was essentially a very elaborate calculator at the time used for very elaborate calculations, it could have more use in business, for example, but the people in business who would want to. Use this to analyze their data to analyze their sales or their stockholding or things needed something far more accessible. These people had specializations in other areas, not in the mathematics that was needed to program. So she developed the first English language data processing compiler, which was called Flowmatic on. This was sort of her big, big. Achievement, I would say, and it made it just so much more accessible to so many, uh, different people and meant that computers could start to be marketed more to the private sector and have greater adoption in business. We love at the OU a Power BI, don't we? We absolutely love a Power BI, and I imagine this is, like, what she was thinking. She's often touted as the mother or the grandmother or all the creator of cobalt, which was the sort of follow on from flow. Matic. She didn't directly develop it herself, but she got together the team of six people who worked on it. And she was a real advocate and outside advisor to the Department of Defense who funded its development at the time, as it did on many projects that then came into public use cobalt common business oriented language. Was then used on mainframes, very large computers, um, in businesses around the world and there's sort of still in use in like quite a lot of banking software, uh, it's still there. That's partly because it's so difficult to figure out how it works and then convert it to something newer and most of the people who used to understand COBOL are now dead. So, yeah, yeah, um, I think it's probably good money if you want to like learn how to be a COBOL developer. to keep those up to date. So second career. Yeah. Um, yeah, so she, she had a big influence on that and her phlegmatic language sort of gave the groundwork for COBOL and then people expanded upon it. Uh, there was a lady, Jean Samet, who was actually part of the, the six who directly developed COBOL. Yeah. And she's very keen to point out that Grace Hopper wasn't on the team. Actually, she's very important, but a little bit of friction there, but still a lot of credit goes to her just for this concept of the English language and more usable. So Grace Diplomatic. Yeah. And that allowed Cobalt. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. On it went. Um, she remained a Navy Reservist, uh, throughout her career in the private sector and was recalled to duty a number of times, usually for computing based projects. Um, so she was responsible for standardizing the Navy's, uh, computer languages. Um, What? So they kept bringing her back in? They kept bringing her back in. So she tried to leave? Tried to leave a number of times, but they kept bringing her back to active duty. It's like, we've got a problem only Grace can solve here. Yeah, presumably. That's amazing. I think Gene Samet was furious about it, but, um, and various, um, various awards, National Medal of Technology in 1991, uh, Distinguished Fellow of the British Computer Society in 1973, and posthumously awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2016. Um, The thing I like most about Grace though is it was a great achievement, uh, to sort of lay the foundation for this, but she was always most interested in education and accessibility, um, of making, um, Computers accessible to a wide community, making them more usable to more people of educating people in how to use them, and she says, although she's sort of known for her achievement in writing flowmatic, she says. When asked about her greatest accomplishment, Hopper once said, it's all the young people I've trained over the years. That's more important than writing the first compiler. And she was always. They're there to try and make concepts. accessible. It felt like a bit of a gatekeeper situation having computing open only to those with very advanced sort of scientific degrees. She wanted these concepts to be accessible to more people because that the knowledge is power and that's what allows people to then not be an expert in computing but actually create something that solves a broader problem. It's also thinking 10 steps ahead. Yeah, it's not like we've got a water for when we need this thing to do this. It's, you know, how can it affect everyone in a day to day situation? Because if you, it sounds like if you've used a bank, if you've used an Excel spreadsheet, if she has in fact influenced your life. Oh, we've all used something or a company that has COBOL as its infrastructure at some point in our life. Yeah, apparently there's, I think, 200 billion lines of COBOL still in active use today. Yeah. Um, she was quite famous for, uh, a particular demonstration to try and make, um, Quite an abstract concept, more understandable. Uh, in the, when transistors and electronics and the processors went down to sort of nanosecond type response times, they could do a calculation in a nanosecond. She was like, I've got no idea what a nanosecond is. That means nothing to me. Can you send me a nanosecond? So she got the Department of Defense, whichever department she was liaising with, to send her a piece of wire, which was 11. 8 inches long. Think about that. We'll measure it later, which is the length of wire that electricity travels in a nanosecond. Wow. So it's just that if you take it out to a microsecond, it's something like 900 yards or something. But just as an actual demonstration, yeah, a real visual on just how much it's coming along. And she, Seemed to really see the importance of computers in the future, where it was all going. There was an interview that she did on 60 Minutes in the States. Yeah. And the interviewer was really sort of trying to push the point that he thought we'd reached the pinnacle of computing. Now that we've got'em down to the size of a room, um, and we've, to the size of a room, this is, it got COBOL that can, that can do 10 calculations per second. He was like, we've reached the pinnacle. And she's like, no, no, we've, we've just about. built the Model T. We've still got all of, all of this to come. And even pre internet days, she was lobbying the Department of Defense, while some places wanted more computers that were bigger, she was advocating for networks of smaller computers, more usable, more accessible. Just sounds like she knew, she just knew what society needed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, a couple of other quotes from a ship in port is safe, but that's what not ships are built for. Sail out to sea and do new things. Oh, strong. I'm not good at sailing, but I like it. No one's noticed. It's fine. Um, probably my favorite one is that if it's a good idea, go ahead and do it. It's much easier to apologize than it is to get permission. I'm sure there are many things that doesn't apply to. Um, yes, you're not a five at the OU. And actually tying in with your story, the humans are allergic to change. Yeah, they love to say we've always done it this way. And she tries to fight that. Yeah, it's a lesson for life, isn't it? And it's a lesson. That it's all that comfort zone stuff, isn't it? It's like just because it makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it's wrong. And I think that's something that we can maybe all take away is if it feels uncomfortable. It's a good chance that you're doing something right and that you're moving forward in some way. Quite possibly. Yeah. And this, uh, just disdain for carrying on because that's the way it is, because often the way that we do things has just been a totally arbitrary choice by someone who wasn't qualified to make it. And then people have forgotten to question it, but she was always questioning. She came up against so much resistance for putting in, you know, English words into programming languages that people can understand. It's like, why would we ever need to do that? Who needs that? But even up to not being allowed in the Navy because she was too little, um, to the programming languages to disagreeing seemingly with every higher up she came across. Um, but yeah, she just powered on, which is incredible. And that's Grace Hopper. That's Grace Hopper. Amazing. Any thoughts on Grace Hopper? I mean Looks like we've got two Grace Hopper experts in the audience, which worries me slightly. Well, thank you. Well, thanks everyone. Thank you. And thank you guys for being here. Yeah, we're She Changed History. Um, we are a podcast that is in the big wide world. It's not an OU thing. So we're on. Spotify, Amazon, wherever. This is our QR code. You can see all our, we've got 20 women today. Yesterday. I think we've got 20 episodes, which is brilliant. Um, and we'll keep doing more because it just turns out we've got a huge list. Haven't we? The problem is every time I research one, it adds four more to the list. Yeah, yeah. So I don't think we'll ever end because we've got all these women to get through. Um, but yeah, if you could like, rate, subscribe on that, on any socials and share us, we'd really appreciate it because, um, and we're so lucky to have this audience here, which is amazing. But if we could keep growing and spread the word to these amazing women, that'd be fantastic. And thank you. so much. I am feeling Grace Hopper because you might be able to tell I'm also little and probably wouldn't reach height requirements for a lot of things. Um, but that was brilliant, um, really great. Um, I didn't know either of those stories. So, um, really great. I've got a couple of takeaways that I think really resonate with what we've been talking about in International Women's Week. Um, so thank you for bringing those to life for us with those stories. Um, first of all, women supporting other women. Yes, lift them up, shout out about them and celebrate their achievements. sharing our knowledge, you know, I mean, you use that, that famous phrase, knowledge is power. Um, let's not make knowledge be power. Let's share it more widely. Just keeping, keeping on, you know, I've done loads already, but you need water. I know I'm going to sort that out for you. Just love that. Um, don't limit your, your ambitions. You know, there's still more to do. Um, get comfortable being uncomfortable. I liked that as well, especially around change. Um, I think they're takeaways that we can take away. Thank you. That's been brilliant. Um, I do follow, um, this on Facebook, highly recommend it. Um, so. So, um, just crack on and do it because there is so much to learn. And thank you for lifting these women out of history and bring them to life for us. That's been brilliant. Thank you.