22. Caroline Norton: Fighting for custody

Caroline Norton's Battle: Reforming Women’s Rights in Victorian England

In this episode of 'She Changed History,' hosts Cara and Vicky dive into the life and relentless struggle of Caroline Norton, a Victorian-era woman whose tragic marital circumstances led her to become a pivotal figure in legal reforms for women's rights in England. The episode discusses Norton's unfortunate marriage with George Norton, highlighting the domestic violence, legal battles, and Caroline's tireless efforts to change child custody laws and married women's property rights. The hosts emphasize Caroline's impactful writings and pamphlets, her relationship with high society figures, and her crucial role in the passing of the Custody of Infants Act and the Marriage and Divorce Act. Despite not being a feminist by today’s standards, Norton's advocacy laid foundational changes that significantly improved women's legal standing in the 19th century.


Sources:
Difficult Women by Helen Lewis 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/norton_caroline.shtml
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Caroline-Norton
https://law-school.open.ac.uk/news/meet-caroline-norton-fighting-women%E2%80%99s-rights-it-was-even-cool
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/blue-plaques/caroline-norton/
https://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/norton/nc-biography.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whigs_(British_political_party)


00:00 Introduction and Friendly Banter
01:54 Introducing Caroline Norton
03:43 Caroline's Early Life and Family Struggles
10:42 Marriage to George Norton
13:17 The Unfortunate Marriage
15:00 Caroline's Fight for Independence
16:01 The Affair and Legal Battles
20:32 The Male-Dominated Trial
22:26 Caroline's Struggle for Custody
24:25 Using Writing as a Weapon
25:26 The Fight for Legal Reform
31:41 A Heartbreaking Loss
33:01 Caroline's Continued Battle
35:56 The Marriage and Divorce Act
39:36 Caroline's Legacy
40:54 Final Thoughts and Reflections
43:20 Closing Remarks

Transcript

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Okay, shall we go? Yes, please. warning this episode does contain domestic violence. hi, Cora. Hi. How are you? I am very well, thank you. And yourself? I'm good, thank you. the sun is out. We're shining. Spring is here. Woo. I think March is one of my favorite months of the year. Is it that cusp thing where you're like, it's happening, it's light out after work? You feel the sun in your face and you're like, oh, I am human. Shake off that winter of Rest and gloom. Yes. I was very bold yesterday and I went outside without a coat. That was, I know, that was a big deal. Like out, like away from the home. I went to get my injection, good stuff. I did fall over yesterday though, oh no. I was clean. I was on a chair cleaning cobwebs and I missed my foot in and I slammed like on the floor and all my right hand side is now bruised. And and this happened, yeah, this happened just before the injection, right? So I was like, please don't touch this arm. I'm not happy with you standing on a chair. Nobody should be. I didn't even think about it, there was no risk assessment, this is why you need old people in your life because I'm here to tell you don't stand on a chair I love how you think you're old. That's so funny. i'm half a century old. I earned this. Hey I've been kicking around. Have you seen those t shirts that are about now, Greg Wallace has done his thing and it's women of a certain age versus the patriarchy. And I was like, yes. Yes, ma'am. Do you want to hear a story? Yes, please. Yeah. Brilliant. Hopefully our listeners will as well. Welcome to She Changed History. We didn't say that at the top. Hi, come along. Hello. Hello. You got me in Kara today. and I'm going to share a story with you about, a very Just wild, insane story from a lady, called Caroline Norton. Have you heard of Caroline Norton before? No, it's not a name that I knew. Alright, let's go on and write. got a little intro for you, Her children, her life, ripped away. Promises whispered, then brutally broken. This is the story of a mother's desperate fight to see her children. A fight against a husband, against a system, against the very laws that stole her sons. And in one case to never be seen again. Prepare to witness the heart wrenching struggle of Caroline Norton and how she used this torment to reform divorce law for all of England's women. Wow. Oh my God that's heavy. So sources today, I found this story in a. an amazing book called Difficult Women by Helen Lewis. a BBC article on Caroline Norton, a Britannica article, which we love using Britannica here. actually an open university article. and I actually know the lecturer who wrote it, which is really cool. englishheritage. org. and a few other ones. To learn about some of the context. We are in Victorian England. Suffragette movement is often seen as like the pioneering turning point for female struggle, basically. But The generation before that actually had done a lot of the campaigning Women's rights were actually fought long before the suffragettes and that's not taken away from anything the suffragettes did. It's just really interesting this whole foundational period that we don't really talk about. So we're going to be in high society because that makes sense that, women in high society are more likely to be in rooms where they can change the law So Caroline Sheridan was her. Maiden name. She was born in London on the 22nd of March 1808 she, it turns out she's actually the granddaughter of a famous playwright called Richard Brinson Sheridan. Actually her father died when she was quite young, so eight years old. That's not uncommon for our stories. There tends to be a loss of a parent quite early on sometimes, because what that often leads to is serious financial problems. Her father, he died quite young. He left, get this, four sons and three daughters. No savings and a modest pension. Oh my days. Oh okay. In high society. He thought I'll be around to provide for everybody and then one reason or another he Vanishes. And suddenly there's this family to seven children. I just seven children made that. Ooh, mother. Oh my gosh. Exactly. So the widow of Richard was quite lucky because she was offered grace and favor which came in the forms of an apartment in Hampton court. So she got lodged in Hampton court because the grandfather because this playwright was so well known and respected in society. She actually got lucky, I think, it's not like she had many options, yes, write up Schitt's Creek let's be quite honest, seven is a lot of mouths to feed. For sure. Caroline then grew up, so she was in her teens, she enjoys writing. She wrote a couple of novels and poetry and these were well respected within society. Some of them actually called her the female Byron. So she was very, it was good what she was producing, which is great. Caroline herself is known to be quick witted, vivacious, and an artan of the wig. Do you know what the wigs are? All I know is that it's spelled W H I G. So we're not talking about a headwear. We're not talking about that. Beyond that, not a clue. A whole part of history that I didn't know about, The Wigs, the name Wigs was derived from the English anti monarchist and opposed Catholic emancipation party in the UK but it actually was founded in the USA. It was a USA party between the, I don't know though, because I don't think they really achieved much. Between the 1680s and the 1850s, the Whigs contested power with their rivals who in that time were the Tories. Over time, the Whigs became the Liberal Party. And they merged with parties like the Radicals in the 1850s. So the Whigs joined these others and the Liberal Party was formed. But at that time, which was 1886, many Whigs left the Liberal Party over the issue of Irish Home Rule. So that's how the Liberal Unionist Party started. Eventually, they were swallowed up by the Conservative Party in 1912. So it's a really brief part of history. Where there was this anti Tory subculture kind of forming. I'm hearing between that and these women taking their foundational steps, it sounds like a time when there was an established norm and maybe no real organized movements to speak of yet. And these are the people lighting the touch paper. And this is where you start to gain momentum to resist these established, maybe unfair structural norms. Yeah. I'm going into the wigs a small bit just there because it's really important later on. And I think because of what you're saying, it's because they're seen as this unorganized left wing unfounded values, but it's really interesting. They do form into the liberal unionist party, which then forms into the conservative party as time goes on. Yeah. But just keeping in mind that wigs are anti monarchist and opposed Catholic emancipation. As with all high societies when the girls are old enough, they get entered into polite society in London. So we're thinking debutante balls, we're thinking very Bridgerton vibes, the ton, that kind of thing. because there were three sisters, they were known very well within society as the three graces. And because of that, there was quite a lot of pressure for them to marry off as well. So it was almost like the sisters were almost in competition with each other a little bit because the mum was desperate for the dowry so she could secure their future and, yeah. So there was a lot of pressure on these poor girls when they're entering society. So Helen, who is the eldest daughter, she's, there's a quote here that Georgie, Georgina, is the beauty, Carrie, Caroline's the wit, and I, Helen, ought to be the good one, but I am not. So she found that she was struggling, I think, with this pressure of society. These three women I think it's fair to say they're well educated and you can see that throughout Caroline's story, caroline wasn't a feminist. She didn't believe in equality for women. She was spoken about women should know their place, which is a kind of grating point on what we're going to talk about. So just have that in the back of your mind as well. So like I said, with lots of children and not many resources, it was really important that the three girls marry and they marry well. By convention it was the eldest sister must be married first. So that's how it should roll in society. And Georgina was the youngest but she was also the most beautiful. Like we said in Helen's quote. I think Caroline and Helen, therefore felt a lot of pressure to get married first because they knew that everyone was going to be chasing Georgina. Basically, they almost wanted to like, just clear the runway so that also that I must, I think that was me in that situation. I would have been so jealous. Yeah, it must have been incredibly difficult for them because presumably they probably really loved each other, but then there's that pressure that almost pits them against one another. That's terrible. Which you don't see in Bridgerton. There's not that vibe in Bridgerton because obviously there's lots of children. in the Bridgerton family but actually the competition between the children is something I haven't seen in that series anyway, so that's really interesting that this dynamic must have been there, like it must have been in my society at the time but isn't shown in popular culture. So everyone's focused on Georgina because she's the prettiest. Caroline herself was quite popular, but she was mostly popular with older men because they appreciated her wit. She was known to use sarcasm and the younger men didn't really know how to handle this, so they were less interested in her. Bless them. Yeah she met lots of people in the London season but Only George Norton came forward. He was the called the Honourable George Norton. He was brother of Lord Grantley. So he was quite high standing and he proposed marriage. So this is the only option Caroline has got. And she's got this pressure, like you say, to clear the runway for Georgina. The family didn't, the Sheridans didn't know much about him beyond the fact that he was well connected because of his brother in law Grantley. And therefore his income was vouched for. He was a safe pair of hands, it sounds like a business transaction rather than any kind of romance or it's just very practical. How can we, merge these two families and keep everyone moving forward. And again, I keep harping to Bridgerton because it's in the popular culture and people will hopefully understand it. There's a family in the Bridgertons called the Featheringtons who are much more focused on business. They're much more focused on trying to get the best for their family through means. Okay. And that's because their father died, so their financial resources are a bit shaky. And so I can totally get where. The girl's mum is coming from because that's Lady Farrington, basically, doesn't mean it's a good thing. It just means it's a sign of the times and she's working in the society they're living in. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Perfect. George Norton was trained as a barrister, but he didn't practice. He and his family were strong Tories whilst the Sheridans were more aligned to this Whig party and were seen as radicals. It sounds like Caroline didn't accept the marriage straight away. She tried to go another season because her younger sister Was coming up basically, so she was like, okay, she had a little time. He had a little time. But it didn't Make any difference and Caroline later made her decision to marry George Norton on the 30th of June 1827 in Hanover Square. She was 19 at the time. So baby and he was 26. So there's a slight age gap George Norton became an MP for Guildford which is like South London and Caroline knew that something wasn't right. cause she waited that year, she was trying to look at the field and I think she knew because their political opinions are so different. I think she had an underlying current that something wasn't right. So eventually she conceded because she wanted the well being of her family to be taken care of, basically. So it was a decision she made for the family, not for herself. In all the articles I've read, it's called an unfortunate marriage. Which I don't know if that's like a term of the time, but it was in most articles an unfortunate marriage. All I can deduce is that it was a marriage that was doomed from the start. Okay, so it's not a good match. Yeah, exactly. Norton didn't like Caroline's cleverness or wit. I think he saw it as a threat he would discuss None of like political or public or private affairs with her. He just did cut her out of all those like decisions completely Like I said, the political sources were a source of friction And also he didn't like how close she was with her family. Huge red flag. He didn't like her going to see them And because they encouraged this radical political stance within her. He was like, Oh my God, dude, marry someone else. You knew. Within a few months of their marriage, George started to drink excessively and he resorted to physical violence in some disputes. Sometimes these. Physical violence attacks, I will be calling them was so bad that the servants had to step in and intervene. And if we know anything about servants from that period, it is that you are seen and not heard. You are not meant to step in. yeah, so it must have been so bad for the to feel like they have to. A lot of their arguments were based around lack of money. Their financial pressures increased with the three sons that they had. So they had a boy called Fletcher, a boy called Brinsley, and the youngest was a boy called William. Their financial situation was so bad it got to the point where Caroline was forced to support the family with her writing. So she'd published a couple of books and they were well received. Like I said earlier, she was really talented in this area. She even had an appointment as editor of a magazine, two magazines, one's called La Belle Assemblée and one's called Court Magazine. With these appointments and publications came the idea that she could have money. She could earn her own money and that independence crept in, which I imagine aligns really nicely to this radical political stance she's been brought up with. And the fact that she has value it's. Financial, but also bringing something to society when he's trying to box her away and shut her down. So the circumstances let her be her for sure. With this independence and this really deteriorating marriage is. And this is important to note for the story, it's more than likely that she had an affair with the current Home Secretary at the time and later Prime Minister Lord Melbourne. There was gossip around the High Court that surrounded Caroline and this. understandably humiliated George. You're an MP and your wife's playing away with the big dog. Oh, that's, oh. Yeah, yeah that's icky. Although it is noted that he initially encouraged this relationship for political gain. So he saw it as like a. And like flirt, butter him up a little bit and she went, okay, all right. If you want me to, Georgie. I understand the assignment. Yeah. Okay. Which also shows that if that's all he's letting her in on. So if he's not letting in to any private and public affairs, apart from go and flirt with that guy, you can see how she would rise to that occasion. Caroline's relationship did deteriorate with George and she ended up leaving the marital home in 1835. but then she actually returned, which she knew she was returning to an unsafe place when George denied her access to her boys. So he said if you're leaving, you can't see them. In March 1836, after yet another quarrel, George locked her out of the house, so it is. It's bad. It's really unsafe and dangerous. Unsafe in a time when you have so few options if you're her, it's hard in any time, but in a time where you have no autonomy, no easy, straightforward path to an earning potential, and you have children in common and, that's desperately frightening. Yeah, for sure. And it's those children that are the catalyst to so many parts of the story. He also sold off her possessions, so anything he's doing to punish her, he will. So this is what, in a modern context, we're calling coercive control, isn't it? He's using the things that she loves and values to punish her or to steer her towards behavior that he wants. Horrific. Yeah. And imagine trying to leave in that situation like it's just To what? To where? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. What options? And then even if you had all the resources of a modern woman, there are children. And what then? Caroline refused to keep out the marriage, so she went back, she tried, and it just wasn't working. He then put Caroline on trial for adultery. Oh. And at the same time in June 1836 he also sued the then Prime Minister, Lord Melbourne, claiming he had an affair with Caroline. So he is just throwing absolutely everything at this I'm not sure he comes out of that as well as he might have thought he did. George wanted to prove his wife Caroline had committed adultery because this would be the first step of obtaining a divorce. He also wanted To plot the take down of the wig government. Lord Melbourne was a wig. He aligned with these values. Oh, so this suits his agenda right across the board. Yeah. There's a reason he's going full hog Okay. Situation. Yeah. This is, yeah, it's making sense. Okay, great. So this court case happens where they put Caroline on trial. Do you think the court case was fair or do you think it was sexist? It feels unlikely to be fair. Just on the face of it. Shock horror. So it wasn't. There's a few things that made it sexist according to The Difficult Women, the book that I found. if a husband was denied domestic harmonies and affections he was entitled under law to basically have access to Caroline's vagina through a marital contract. Oh. So Because she was playing away, it denied him access for domestic harmony. Oh my, I don't even know what to say about this. So they're talking about this in a court as though they're negotiating the use of a car. Yeah, 100%. Wow. Yes. Because you've denied me access to this vagina, I am going to ask for, in today's money, 10 million pounds worth of damages. That's some vagina. Wow. Okay. All the lawyers and the judges and the pamphleters in the trial were male. The only women that were in the whole case were Caroline's servants and That's because she had witness he beat me up The problem with having servants in a trial in those times were that servants were deemed an unreliable source So the only women in that trial were unreliable sources according to times The lead counsel promised George that this was to be a public case to bring down Caroline, so he made it as public as he could. So he wanted to humiliate her, he didn't just want, okay, yeah. And part of the case was that one of George's servants testified that Caroline showed a quote unquote thick part of her thigh when the prime minister was sat in a chair on a visit. So she could have done something as simple as adjust her skirt and suddenly we've got this little rat man saying, yes, she showed her thigh. That's enough for my 10 million pounds actually. Don't look. Okay. Yes. The book Difficult Women lists all these reasons as to why the case was sexist. Melbourne obviously was counteracting this because he's the Prime Minister, he wants a safe face, he was successful in his defence, but that didn't change the fact that Caroline's reputation was completely ruined. She was labelled a scandalous woman. She was written about in newspapers and parodied in cartoons. And even though The Nortons had separated. Caroline remained under George's property. All that this suing had done was make it harder for Caroline to divorce George. She was unable to divorce him because she had no legal rights. The other problem with this suing and the idea of divorce is that the existing law automatically gave custody of children to their father. Automatically. Oh, wow. This suing just did nothing to help anyone, by the sounds of it. Lord Melbourne has come out unscathed. Caroline was also worried that George thought that the younger two children were actually Lord Melbourne's and therefore he would inflict the pain that would have been on her because he used to beat her up so bad would be then inflicted on the boys. This is a nightmare. It's scary. This is an absolute nightmare. So at the point she's out of the house and George has the children. All those motherly instincts and all the things I've spoken about at the beginning of this podcast are just, she's desperate to make sure her kids are okay. She would hang around at St. James Park, hoping to glimpse her children if they were travelling somewhere. She would convince I put in brackets, probably bribe, footmen to let her see her children, obviously when George wasn't there. The summers, George took the kids to Scotland to see his sister, and Caroline would guess which Dock they were sailing from to go from London to Scotland to try and even get a glimpse of them and to see them from afar. Sometimes, heartbreakingly, she would get the wrong dock, so she missed them. It was all just a guessing game. And this is all she can do. This is all that is in her power to see her children. At the same time, George and his family, are actively turning the children against her. For example, one of the children was beaten for reading a letter from her mother. Sometimes the children were even whipped. This is horrific. Yeah, it's really dark and classic using children as a pawn. These tropes that you hear through society, even today, this is evidence that this was happening and men did this, george at least did this. So what did Caroline do? She used her skills. She had to make a change. She's a published writer, we know that because she financially supported her family when she could. And we knew that writing was a powerful, persuasive tool of the time. It was have you seen in Hamilton where they do the pamphlet song where they're like, that was the way you got traction and news back in those times So this is like your social media sharing, you're like sending these things out there. She was like, I'm going to do it. Yeah. I need to tell people about this. She wrote to her friend casually. She's friends with Mary Shelley. As you do. Of writer fame. Yeah. It's high time, she said in a letter, the law was known to at least the weaker sex, which gives us no right to see our own flesh and blood. So she was like, women don't know that this is what they're entering into when they enter a marriage. They don't know what contract they're signing, Her aim was to educate the public about. this law and how it affects mothers and also persuade MPs to support the case. So what she did was she wrote two pamphlets. The first one was published in 1837 and it had a very Jazzy title children as affected by the common law rights of the father Which is does what it says on the tin. I guess she wants to be taken seriously. She's putting it in serious terms Yeah It argued the pamphlet that all children under the age of seven should remain in custody of their mother and that the decision as to Where the older children should live should be decided by the court not the father in the case of marital breakdown. She made 500 copies of these leaflets, pamphlets, and then she circulated them privately. So she, she was like cherry picking, the right people to read the pamphlets. Sympathetic people who might be Persuaded or might already hold sympathetic views at the time people said, I don't think this is a good idea, Caroline. And when she showed people their drafts, people thought that it was maybe too angry. She kept that anger in the pamphlet. And the reason she did that was because she didn't want to sound weak. She just wanted to create awareness. She then published a second pamphlet, which was more focused on how children were being used as weapons in marriage, right? This one was called the separation of mother and child by the law of custodies of infants considered, which, such very jazzy names. Yeah, Siri, again, Siri's coming in with the kind of dry, non emotional, but I wonder if she's counteracting something there because the assumption is, oh, she's just a woman. It's going to be too emotional. And maybe she's deliberately choosing these things. It's a deliberate choice. I've got a quote here that I can read you. The father's right is absolute and paramount and can be no more affected by the woman's claim than if she had no existence. So she's saying the current law is I might as well not be alive. Like I might as well not be here. I think that's such an important piece of context, isn't it? Because it lays it out. There is literally no mitigation. There is no allowing for the fact that he might have done wrong and I might not have. I simply do not exist in this legal framework. Oh, so how depressing. God. Yeah. And then to top it all off, she also noted that there was like this double standard. So if you weren't married, if for whatever reason you had a child out of marriage and your child, children were quote unquote bastard children, that they are automatically given to the mother until age seven. So she was like, I was better off not marrying and having these children outside of marriage. Married men could forcibly seize their children even if they, quote unquote, were infants at the breast. So even if you're breastfeeding the dad can say I'm gonna, you're mine. I'm not giving you to the wife at all. But if they were unmarried, it would be completely different. I wonder here in a way she's leveraging that against the system and saying, look, this I'm not a feminist, this is just against nature, and, you've hit the nail on the head entirely, it's so true. And it also points out that there's no mechanism for leaving, because you've confined me to this marriage. I'm trying to do everything you tell me to do, I'm trying to be the good woman, but you've made this in I can't be the mother that I should be, and I'm trying to do what you tell me to do, society. Yeah. Yeah. She used these pamphlets to lobby, and she asked, because she is well connected, hi, society. She asked the lawyer and MP, Thomas Telford, to sponsor a child custody bill through Parliament. He did do this he was on board, the pamphlets were persuasive enough for Thomas to get on board, but the custody bill failed in Parliament. So she's trying to fight for these Laws to be changed and lobbying really big heavy stuff but at the same time she's in this ebb of flow of hoping to see her children. It sounds utterly exhausting and George would promise her a visit or Sometimes even custody give her all that hope and then He would withdraw. He would rip it away Liking him less by the second. He's awful. Sometimes he would organize a visit and not even show up. He sent the kids to boarding school and didn't tell her. And all the time these children are getting older and older. They're getting infected with all The stories that are being told about their mother to them. While she's fighting for this bill to go through. It's heart wrenching. She continues this struggle until finally in 1839 she wrote a letter to the Lord Chancellor. on the Infant Custody Bill. Because of this letter the Custody of the Infants Act was finally passed. Oh wow, okay. By which legally separated and divorced mothers who had not been found guilty of adultery were given custody of children under seven and granted regular access after that. Oh my gosh, so this is a tremendous outcome. And she could have easily given up. She could have walked away. She would have been exhausted, as you say. Yeah. Mate, she changed the law. That's incredible. She changed the law. This law didn't affect her actual home circumstance. It did not restore Karenai's access to her children. Because the law only applied in England, Wales, and Ireland. And where does George's sister live? Oh, Scotland. Scotland. So he took the kids to Scotland so she could not claim access. He was determined to punish her. Yeah. So the battle continued until one day when the youngest of the sons, William, fell off a horse and, whilst they were in Cattlethorpe Hall, which is a little fancy hall in Lincoln he fell off the horse, hurt himself and he developed tetanus. By the time the word got to Caroline, she races over to Lincoln. And by the time she gets there, the nine year old was in his coffin. Oh my god, oh the power of woman, oh my god. Yeah, that's according, that wording I've kept in, the nine year old was in his coffin, because it's such a stark word and I kept it in from the source because it was so good. This horrendous loss seemed to soften George a little bit, and he allowed Caroline to see her children at Christmas. So he, it softened him a little bit. Definitely not what we were hoping for, or what we were fighting for, but she was allowed to see her children. Caroline finally gained share custody of her children in 1841. Lots of negotiation happened between William dying and, 1841, where, they actually managed to get to an agreement, but it took one of the children dying to get there. Wow. And that didn't stop Caroline with her law movements, though. She kept pushing for law reform throughout her life, and this was heavily influenced by her experience with George. In March 1852, so like a good 10 years after. George cancelled Caroline's money, so allowance, and he refused to honour his liabilities for her bills. So part of marriage back then was that you keep your wife, you have to pay. And he also because she's a published writer, right? He managed to redirect that money from writing into his bank account. So not only is he saying no, I'm not paying for you He's saying whatever you create yourself. I want as well. He was legally entitled to do that Unless, the only way he wouldn't be allowed is if there was a prenup that was agreed, but there wasn't in this case all wife's earnings and property belonged to the husband. That was law. That's, wow, okay. And they're still not divorced at this point, I think it's important to say. Ah, I see, it's still up in the air, so he's got that hold over her financially, Because if she was on her own, she'd have no legal identity. So Caroline was unable to sue him, or be sued herself technically raise her own contracts, receive legacies, or even make a will. However, in 1853, she asked her creditors to sue George on her behalf. So she said, you do the suing, but do it on my behalf, which is a very clever switch around. Caroline defended herself in court, she represented herself and she, because of all the work she did with the pamphlets and the lobbying and everything else, she was supported in court, there were cheers of that in court. But that doesn't mean the case was won. George won the case on a technicality. That's unfortunate, given that she had that momentum and she had the charisma and charm of a girl who'd been a debutante. So she knew how to work a room. Exactly. And we said right at the beginning, she's got wit and she's got these political values and she clearly had skills and knew how to use them, right? Because they're in high society and, I said earlier that the press absolutely scandalized Caroline. Her time in court was also picked up by the press as well. the issues of their marriage, so George and Caroline's marriage, was written about in papers for weeks. Caroline used this momentum and began to campaign for changes in the law relating to married women's property again, she turns back to her trusty pamphlet. This one is called English laws for women in the 19th century, which I feel is a better title. I feel we're improving on the titles as we get through. Okay. This one was published in 1854 and then she used the power of her story to persuade. Parliament and the chosen people she's given these pamphlets to. She also casually writes to Queen Victoria at the time, and she explains very eloquently in her letter to Queen Victoria about what has been going on in her circumstance and this had direct influence on the Marriage and Divorce Act of 1857. This Marriage and Divorce Act abolished some of the inequities to which married women were subject to. It contained 68 clauses and four of those directly came from Caroline's pamphlets. So what she wrote in those pamphlets actually got put into law. That is extraordinary considering she's not a lawmaker. She's a just a human being who's gone through this. Absolutely unfair set of circumstances. It's amazing. Yeah. And it made me so happy to be like Di They directly came from Caroline's capitalist. These included women's rights to form a contract to receive maintenance as directed by the court to inherit property and to keep possessions of her own earnings. So she is now allowed because of this act to keep the earnings that she made from her writing. Oh that's wonderful news because it's just plain common sense. It's just fair. So go Caroline. It's really important that in this letter to the Queen, she is not seeking female equality. She even wrote the natural position of women is inferior to men. Amen. I never pretended to the wild and ridiculous doctrine of equality. So she's just saying within a marriage. women should have rights. She's not saying those rights are equal. She's not saying outside of marriage those rights are equal. She's just saying that the idea of marriage it doesn't give me any right. I'm probably better not being married. Can I ask you, and this is just purely speculation. Yes. Do you think that she truly believed that? Or do you think that she was playing the game? I hope she was playing the game. Because it shows a much higher level of intelligence. It's cunning, yeah. Yeah, but my good feeling is no, I think she did believe that because she was of her time. Because she fought her entire life to change acts and fight for law changes. Why would you not therefore for the law of equality if you're going to dedicate this much time to it? Why would you not go for equality? That's really interesting. That's my only reason. Yeah, I get it. Because this is a lifelong battle. Her youngest was nine when he died. This is not just a couple of years of, this is her entire life's work. And I wonder, therefore if you're going to dedicate that much time to it, you're going to make sure it's for the thing you believe in, right? That makes absolute sense. Yeah. But I don't know. That's just my gut feeling. It's a shame, but I think it's true. Like I said, She just wanted to establish that women be written into law. Basically because at the time they just hadn't been written in at all and were denied so many things. She just wanted to make sure that women had a place in law, which is a great starting block, isn't it? To therefore fight for equality. And it is very clear that none of the rights that we had today would be without Caroline. and her fight, right? We know that there's a very clear linear progression of women in rights and law. Because of her right for property that she now has, Caroline secured a lease to 3 Chesterfield Street, and wrote a really lovely letter about her move that she finally could own property, and it's described in one of the articles as a wistful correspondence. 3 Chesterfield Street actually has a blue plaque at the minute and it marks the house where she lived for over 30 years. She was never able to divorce George. it never supported that. Because Caroline had left George and gone back to him in 1835, she was never allowed to divorce him. However, in 1859, they eventually agreed like separation. So they came to, much like the custody agreement, they came to A deed, if you like, of this is how it's going to work from here leaving her to live as she wished, so freely, as long as she was unmarried. Okay. So I guess you're George, you're thinking I no longer get to garnish her income. If anything, she could theoretically cost me money. So I'll wave that away, but my ego won't withstand her remarrying. So those are my terms. He had his claws in deep. They were deep and they would not let her go yeah, that is the story of how Caroline Norton allowed women to be acknowledged in Wow, I I'm coming away from this with two kind of thoughts and one of them is that she is a kind of case in point that someone doesn't have to align with every single value. She would have had arguments with the suffragette women who came after her with, she would have argued against their theories, but she still advanced. the overall well being. She really did for so many women. It's so important to acknowledge those people who make those steps, even though they might not align with you perfectly, they still are doing the good work. It's very much how I feel about Churchill because Churchill has done so much for British history, of course but he stood against the suffragettes. He didn't believe in votes for women. And it's always such a tussle, isn't it? There's some tricky things about him with race relation with women's rights and so on. And yeah, so you see him lauded as a hero and you think, but you can't take away from the accomplishments at the same time. Yeah. I did say I had two thoughts, but the other one seems to have flown away. Oh, it's okay. I've got a little kind of finisher here. So Caroline's battle was forced upon her by unfortunate marriage but she was the catalyst for change for women in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, but we don't know her. She's completely written out of history, so it's such an important story to share. And it was just a mother's love, that drove it all. If he hadn't been such an absolute shithouse, the world might've been worse. Which is a terrible burden for her to have carried. He's definitely the baddie of the story. So I bet he had a mustache that he would twirl Oh, so quite an emotional one today. Sorry about that. Yes, it was. Thanks Cara. Thank you Vicky, I think we should plan a trip to go see her blue flak, a little field trip. Mayfair is in, Mayfair baby. Oh, yes, out we go. Yeah, let's go, let's do it, sounds great. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you. Please like us. Please rate us. Please subscribe. Please share with your friends. We are She Changed History and we would love to have your support. And we'll see you next time. Thanks very much. Thank you. Bye. Bye.