She Changed History

30. Catherine the Great: Furniture and horse mythbusting!

• Vicky and Simon • Season 1 • Episode 30

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Catherine the Great (and her Mum!) - more than just a scandal

In this episode of 'She Changed History,' the hosts delve into the fascinating life of Catherine the Great, the Empress of Russia. Dispel the myths and rumours surrounding her, and discover the remarkable achievements and challenges Catherine faced during her reign. Learn about her early life, her tumultuous marriage to Peter III, her ascent to power, and her transformative rule marked by progressive reforms in education, social welfare, and international diplomacy. This episode showcases Catherine's enduring legacy, her intellect, ambition, and significant contributions to modernizing Russia.

Sources today are:



00:00 Introduction and Banter
01:16 Celebrating Milestones
01:29 Unveiling the Real Catherine the Great
03:35 Catherine's Early Life
05:45 Joanna's Ambitious Plans
10:55 Catherine's Marriage to Peter
11:16 Peter's Struggles and Catherine's Adaptation
16:50 Peter's Reign and Downfall
18:51 Catherine's Bold Moves Against Peter
20:44 The Coup and Catherine's Rise to Power
21:15 Catherine's Lovers and Political Maneuvering
23:52 Catherine's Coronation and Symbolic Crown
26:09 Enlightenment Ideals and Reforms
29:31 Catherine's Educational and Social Reforms
32:18 Challenges and Rebellions During Catherine's Reign
33:27 Catherine's Diplomatic Achievements
36:17 Catherine's Legacy and Final Years

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She looks lovely. Yeah. Okay. I've got it. I've got it. Ready? Yes, ma'am. Hi car. Hi Vicki. Hi. How are you? I Very well, thank you. It is glorious today. I am ready. Full, full of enthusiasm. Ready to go. How about you? Oh, amazing. I'm good. I am slightly dry mouthed from too much Prosecco last night. Ooh, so we'll just have to see how this rolls. You are paying the price. Have you got a drink? Are you hydrating? I've got lots of water by me. It was just one of those times where they were topping you up and, Aw, I couldn't say no, and it's my, it's not my own city fault. It's my fault. I mean, you're only human who when they come round with the bottle, what are you supposed to do? Are like you mid-sentence and Yeah. But then, you know, don't succumb to peer pressure. That's what we were told at school. So not doing very well. Yeah. What they, we were told loads of stuff. Um, of course if you were my child, I would be saying something entirely different, but, um, yeah. Uh, but nevertheless, we've got a lovely story. So welcome to She Changed History everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Oh, we hit a thousand downloads. Did I tell you? Marvelous news. That's like, I can't even begin say how excited I am. And yeah, we're very grateful. Well done. So I've got a little story for you today. It's someone you probably know, right? But I want to do the story and it's because you probably know her for something that isn't true. And we're just going to myth buss this. This lady out. Amazing. Does that sound good? Yeah. So it's like someone we think we know. But we don't, yeah. Mm. Okay. Bring it on. So we're gonna be talking about Catherine the greats, and crucially her mother. That's the other thing. So two for one. Uh, nice. Got a little intro. Forget the whispers and the wild rumors. The real story of Catherine the Great. It's a griping tale of ambition, intellect, and a relentless drive to drag Russia from the medieval ages into the enlightenment. More than just a scandalous headline. She was a shrewd political operator, a champion of education in the arts, and an empire builder who left an indelible mark on history prepared to discover the fascinating truth behind Catherine the Great. So there we go. What do you know about Catherine The Great, when I say Catherine the Great you say. You say it? Uh, giddy up, giddy up gi. That's what I say. Yeah. Um, we like what we like, but that's not cool. So please dispel that rumor. Yes. Uh, we're gonna dispel that woman in particular and we are gonna add lots of layers to that about all the cool stuff that she actually did. So the sources today are mainly an article by world history.org. I rely heavily on that, which is written by Liana Mete, a BBC article on the history figure section Britannica Smithsonian magazine. Um, the true story of Catherine the Great, A medium.com blog history things.com. And, um, there was a little course on Catherine the Great on Lumen learning, and I took a little bit of the course fun. Oh my God, how cool is that? I love this. Did you get like a, a certificate at the end? Look Gold style. Yeah. Well done. You outstanding. So, Catherine the Great was born Sophie Friedrich Augustus on whole sub burst, um, on the 2nd of May, 1729 in Setin, which is, it was then part of Prussia, which is now in Poland. Her dad was a minor prince, a little bit like, Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie if they had children. So very minor, very distant royal kind of thing. So in that sphere, but not really expected to be. Not in the nuclear self, not in that bit on the, on the edges a little bit. She was related through her mother, to the Dukes of Holstein, which is in Germany. So her family is noble. Even though they are noble, it's not like they're rolling in money. One of her younger brothers Will Hay and Christian died at 12 from Scarlet Fever. And because of that, Catherine is said to have quite a close relationship with her father and her mother. So they're quite a little close knit. Um, they're just trying their best. She did have a governess, which is very privileged. It's very nice to have. Her name is, um, Elizabeth, but they called her Bbe and she apparently, she was like a great influence on Catherine growing up. And, word is said about Burette throughout history. She was the kind of ness that every child would wish to have. I guess, a little bit Mary poppin, I guess, kind of vibe. So Catherine was a very happy child. She played games, and she was quite naturally, quite ballsy, I think, in the games. Okay. She kind of organized all the others brothers and sisters. Catherine herself described her childhood as, um, an eventful. She said there's nothing of interest in it. When she comes of age, when I say come of age, I mean. 10 to 12, like back in the day. Whoa. Or coming of age back in the day where you were married or very, very young? I'm thinking 1730s. Mm-hmm. Lifespan is probably short. 35, 40. I guess they're thinking no time to waste. Let's, I think so. Let's get the show on the road. Yeah. And her mother was called Joanna and she is. She was basically not satisfied. She regretted marrying a man who she didn't think was good enough for her. And there was a lot of resentment there. And she was like, I'm not having this for my children. Joanna was on a mission. She was like, I'm not letting these children be like me. Which is a very parent thing to do, so Joanna is hell Ben on securing Catherine a well connected husband, right? That's her one goal. Ideally.'cause we're on the outskirts of Royal. Ideally she wants, she wants Prince, right? Climb that ladder. Gotta get there. Gotta get there. So in 17, 39, 10-year-old Catherine meets, 11-year-old Peter, who is the Duke of Holstein. And he's heir to the throne of Sweden, and he's the only living grandson of Peter the great of Russia. So, tiny pizza, well connected. Yeah, for 11-year-old, that's a very good network. Fucking quite a good cd. His LinkedIn is impressive for an 11-year-old. So he was considered very good match for Catherine and Joanna. And Joanna was like, yes, fill in this, this is it. Now. Joanna is like the secret hero of this story, I think because she's, she's giving me Chris Jenna vibes. She's giving me momager. She's giving me, you know, you will go to every beauty pageant you will could do. Absolutely. Everything's climb these ladders and be relevant, and there is an essence of meddling, and I don't think it's healthy, but we cannot underestimate Joanna's ambitions. And, uh, she relentlessness. Um, I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm just saying she was relentless and I like that it came from a place of love, didn't it? She wanted better, like you said, she wanted better for her kids than she herself felt she had. But yeah, that would be I. Relentless and tedious. I'm like, oh, are you really wearing that corset? I mean, oh God, come on, mom, back off. The pressure must be high, right? Yeah., she is the queen of meddling. So, um, she had connections with the Russian empress who was, is very into the connected, so who was Joanna's cousin, but also Tiny Peter's dad. Um, wow. Was married so tiny. Peter's dad was married to the Empresses older sister. Right. So this is like everybody knows everybody probably related in some tangential way, like they're all a big classic. So related of sorts, basically. Yeah. And the Empress had once been betrothed to Joanna's older brother. So there's even history there. There's a little bit of history. They know each other. The empress was betrayed to Joanna's brother, but he died. So there's a little bit heart right there. There's a little bit of trauma bonding I imagine. The one that got away through death. Exactly. Yeah. So Joanna, the mum, she encourages this, relationship with the Empress, who's connected to Peter, by organizing gifts and,, making sure that Catherine is in the right spaces and goes to the right parties and, oh, all this kind of, and she meeting you here like that Oh, oh. Oh, I happen to have brought you a giraffe. Yeah. Basically all that. Oh, those royals. And it takes years. So like I said, Joanna is relentless. She starts when Catherine's like 10. Like she really goes heavy on it. Um, but it does work. So in January. In January pageant Mom. No, I know it shouldn't pay off, but it does. It does. It really, it really does. So in January, 1742, so this is like 10 years or so of meddling, the Empress names Peter Little Peter. Of all the people she could have chosen just happens to choose Peter as the heir to the throne. Okay. Just casually'cause of all this like little mind games that Joanna's playing in the background. And then in 1744, Joanna and Catherine are invited to go to Russia. By King Friedrich II of pressure who expresses his wishes for Catherine's, become the wife of Peter. So it's very complicated, but she's in basically bottom line. It's Catherine's got him. So on the 10th of January, 1744, Catherine makes the, makes her way. For the, I guess it's like the formal approval of the match. So she arrives in Russia. It goes well. She's assumed the title of Grand Duchess, Catherine Atla Venia and marries Peter The following year I. So really quick, really Bish Bash B has happened, right? Yeah. John deal. Let's get it. Yeah. Joanna sat there with her Prosecco. She's having a little welcome me moment in the background. Here's to 10 years of meditating. Done Me. My future is secure. But sadly though, Peter wasn't really into Catherine. He wasn't that bothered, to be honest. Oh, Peter, maybe because he's still a boy. He's 11 years old. He's probably into like, I don't know what, like little, little toy horses, horses or whatever to soldiers, man. He's a little bit older now, but he's still not there. He's still not that bothered. He's not feeling it. No. Also now we're in Russia. Catherine doesn't know anything about this culture, anything about its language, anything about its customs and that I imagine is very, very lonely. And then she's got this little kid who's just like, oh, not even that bothered by you anyway. And he's not that bothered with me. That's such a difficult situation for a young woman to be in, right? But she takes it by the horns and she goes full on. I'm in Russian now, I'm gonna do it their way. So she learns Russian, she learns the custom, she takes it very seriously. She also enters the Russian Orthodox Church, which, you know, not easy to get into, she has to do. And she takes it so seriously that she actually becomes ill from all the pressure and all the, oh, how tiresome it is, and she actually becomes ill with pneumonia. so she's trying really hard. I guess also, if I was in this situation and you've got this kid who you're like, Ugh, you're gonna try and find your own thing, aren't you? You're gonna try and find your own path and make the best of a bad situation and focus on your own lane, I think, as well. So I think that's what she was doing. That makes sense. And I think it also would be an answer to some of the vulnerability you would feel because you might be thinking, um, Peter could just give me the flick at any point. And then who am I?'cause I'm only here under his purview and like if he's not into me, what then? So yeah. Good for her. Hold that thought. That is a really Yes. Great insight. So the marriage, it turns out a wedding is 10 days in Russia, just a 10 day ceremony. I was like, that's too many days. I'm sorry. Sorry, isn't it? So they had 10 days celebrating and then the actual marriage. But the thing after the 10 days was awful. It was steam, complete failure. Um, they ended up staying married, I think we're about 18 years, but it was., It wasn't great for Catherine. She was very disappointed. Peter Waster, just a, he's the bad guy for the story. He was physically and emotionally underdeveloped, which meant that he, those relationships didn't come very easily. And, in a modern day context, you would think, oh, maybe that's autism. Or maybe that's. A DH adhd, maybe there's something going on there and, but obviously in the 17 hundreds we didn't have this language. We didn't have this context or research to back that up. And he's remembered as being very immature. He just wanted to play with his toys all the time. He didn't want, um, oh, he wasn't interested in relationships with people. They didn't consummate the marriage for a really long time. Oh yeah, I bet. I mean, he's pictured Peter throughout history of as being just this petulant child, like throwing his toys out. If I'm spoiled, can't communicate, just, you know, it is my way or the highway. Very,, immature. But it's really important to note that most of what we know about Peter comes from Catherine. So it's very, it's very one sided, I'd say. Oh. Oh right. I do not doubt for a minute that there is historical accuracy here.'cause it's obviously so well supported by the research you've done. But nobody should be solely subject to history, remembering them in the words of their worst ex. Like the person who was the most hurt or disappointed by them. That is dreadful. Yeah, that's rough. That's pretty rough. So she described him as, um, many things, including extremely neurotic, rebellious, obstinate, perhaps impotent, and nearly an alcoholic. And this is after years of trying, I think that's really important. During the early years of Thera, she really tried to support him. Like I said, she was down with the customs. She understood her role. She really wanted to be what her mother. Had put her on this pedestal where her mother had done all this work. She really wanted to come to the party. Isn't that rough? I mean, for both of them on a human level, that their interpersonal relationships, the most intimate relationships in their lives are. Duty bound, and even down to their actual sex life. It's like you, you have to, whether you fancy each other or not, you just gotta get on with it. Ew. It's, it's terrible. Yeah. No wonder they were frustrated and disappointed. Absolutely. And from little Peter's point of view, when he, he was just 14. His, um. Closest relative who was his aunt, became the empress of Russia. She whisked Peter off then from everything he knew, she gave him a Russian name, she inducted him into the Russian Orthodox faith and proclaimed him as air to the throne. And so, and this happened all when he was in those really formative years. Yeah. And because of that experience, he hated Russia. He hated living in Russia. Oh God. Russia people. But from his point of view, he's just been plucked. And dropped, which is, you know, quite traumatic for a 14-year-old to go through. Yes, yes indeed. Yeah. So from that point of view, you can kind of see where Peter's coming from, but also from Catherine's point of view, she's like, I'm trying really hard. I'm, you know, I'm stepping up here. Where are you? And also that doesn't justify the fact that you then slag off the people you're leading. Yeah. So he's just resentful. Yeah. And bitter. Yeah. And you can see this isn't just hearsay, a memoirs, there's actual. Terms of what he did. So when he became in power, he withdrew Russia from a war, even though they were winning it. He then plucked them out of that war and then started a war with Denmark, um, which no one was behind politically. He tried to force the Russian Orthodox Church to adopt Lutheran religious practice because that's what he had been brought up here with. And this was, he was only on the throne for six months. Right. And in these six months. Wow. Yeah, he turned Russia air against him in those six months he was hated. He. And it was because he favored his native land, which was Germany. Right. And he was just trying to push this German way onto everyone, just his home. He's like, oh, you've taken me out of Germany, so I'm gonna make this, I'm gonna make this happen to you Germany. I'm king now. Let's go. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There was a little bit of that and a little bit of like. Trying to push Russia into the ground as well, because to him it was this huge part of his life that he hated. So you can see he wasn't very popular. Yeah, I get it., Then in 1762, exactly what you said earlier. Peter's going off on one, right? He's spiraling. He is causing havoc, burning fires, burning the whole place down. And Catherine starts to suspect that because they're not getting on very well, that she suspects Peter will divorce her. Which is exactly what you're saying. She could drop at a hat. Yeah. And in actual fact, she is known to be the opposite of Peter. So, in contrast to his immaturity, she's known as clearheaded. She's known as ambitious, she's known as intelligent. She's really flexible in her character'cause she's swan on over To Russia and then became part of Russia and because of all this, liked her, they could differentiate between Peter and Catherine, which I'm not sure that would happen today, but that's very interesting. That's really good, isn't it? Yeah. That's an interesting observation too. She must have charm, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And she was energetic and bubbly and all those things from her childhood that we referenced earlier. The other thing she was happy to do was call Peter out, On his shitty behavior basically. Also, I guess from her point of view, he's embarrassing. She's just sat there cringing while he goes out. Yeah. Like I, this is not me. No. So, sorry. I don't have any, but how, I mean, first of all, like, how. Brave. And second of all, how shrewd to kind of recognize, right? I'm meant to be married to this dude. He, we're not, it's not working. He's got complete power over my life. So my last salvo, my hail Mary, is to court the people directly that he's alienating. Like that's really risky for her to have taken that on. Yeah. And also this probably came from her mother, right? Who we know is relentless, who we know has instilled this a sense of in her who, is. A little puppeteer in the background. She's probably got some of those skills from Joanna, right? Because she did all that amazing hard work, which is really why I wanna reference her throughout this story as well. So I do think it's unlikely that Catherine would've been a bystander, a a hundred percent of what's happening. Like, like you said, she's probably stood there in the background, cringing, but I think she had more about her, um, to just not let dogs lie. She could, but at this point as well, she probably cares about her people and cares about her country and probably, you know, wants to, why wouldn't you wanna be successful? So I don't imagine that she would be a bystander if there was something going on to dethrone Peter. But there's nothing in history to suggest that she was part of the dethroning process that happens next. So, oh, okay. So she's, she's pumping the brakes on his worst ideas, but she's not actively trying to unseat him apparently. I find that hard to believe, but, apparently. Okay. So, there is a coup to unseat Peter, and part of that dethroning is to put her. His impress. So what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? And just as testament to how crap Peter was, several groups started plotting against him. So it wasn't just like a couple of rebels, it was like really ice. And, many want for Catherine to become Empress Region, which is the proper title. One of Catherine's most prominent supporters was her lover. Oh. We haven't really spoken about her lovers. So, you know, I said earlier that she, they didn't really consummate the marriage. Mm-hmm. And that is understandable. Children arrived. So there was three children who ha ha ha, mysterious. And essentially I think the story is She wasn't getting it at home. So, and she's in a powerful position. So it'd be quite easy, I imagine, to, you know. Flirt and get what you need from elsewhere. Yeah. There's like House of the Dragon vibes here because the, I don't know if you've watched that, but there's a storyline that's basically cut and paste from her life by the sounds of it. And in that, one of the angles that is explored is that it actually benefits. King because there's the impression of fertility providing heirs and so on when he is actually not interested. So he's like, yeah, what do, whatever. As you know, now we've got prince's amazing, so maybe there's like, he was just like, turn in a blind eye. Do what you want. Yeah, maybe, or I don't know. I wasn't there, but. Damn it. I was also thinking that maybe that was one of the reasons he was plotting to drop her and divorce her. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Fair. But then, I dunno. Um, but anyway, so she has lovers, which, you know, good for her. If she's been treated that badly, that makes sense. One of her lovers was Gregory all over. He was a Russian guard officer, and he was part of a big family who all had, um, really high up places in the Russian Army. So good. Great networking. Networking. Is that what we're calling it? That's what we're calling it today. The Russian officers plot to stage coup. And, eight days after this CO is successful. It was quite easy to dero it in by all camps. Oh, her husband Peter was then assassinated, so there's no chance of him coming back, taking a dark turn. But he really pissed, he pissed people off. You know, I think it was more the only way to really cement it, unfortunately, was to, to kill him. He was most likely killed by Gregory's brother Alexi. God. Contrary to the quite dark rumors. Catherine, like I said, there's no evidence that Catherine was responsible for the, for the killing, but whew. What this all means is Catherine is now in a position where she is ruling Russia, we're now in 1762. She has a lovely, coronation, on the 22nd of September, 1762 in, the Assumption Cathedral in Moscow. She has a crown made for her coronation and it becomes the crown that is used for every, suffering, from that point forward. Um, I just wanna talk about the crown because it's beautiful and I, I'd love to hear it. Tell me. I was like, yeah, I'll talk about this. I've been looking at met gala dresses all week since. Bring on. I'm loving it. Loving it. So yeah, this is Met gala on steroids. So you've got, 75 pearls, a diamond cross, a Ruby 4,936 Indian diamonds and gold and silver half spheres representing the Eastern and western Russian empires. Wow. I've got a picture of the crown there Oh, holy shit. Shit. It's magnificent. It's the subtlety that you appreciate, isn't it? Yeah, that is remarkable. It was designed by Jeremy Palsy, who was a Swiss French court, diamond jeweler. And, um, it's just stunning. So yes, we'll share that on Instagram as well,'cause I really like it. Gorgeous. I mean, obviously, obviously just exquisite. Mm-hmm. And should they just whip that up just for the correlation quickly? Just like 62. I've had a thought. How about, There it is. So, Catherine is in, uh, a huge position of power. Joanna is beside herself with excitement. I'm sure she wet herself. Absolutely. She's giddy., Look at that crown on my daughter. She's my, I did that. This is when really for Catherine, the serious work starts, right? This is when all that prep that she's done and all that learning and all that. Being at one with the Russian culture, she's like, well, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this right? And my God, her reign is so, it makes me kind of, in a weird way, yearn for this kind of ruling. It's really transformative and well, let's talk through it. Essentially part of Catherine's ruling was the idea of enlightenment ideals. Do you know anything about the enlightenment kind of era? Nothing, nothing to hang my hat on, so I'm looking forward to hearing that. Okay. Me neither. So it turns out enlightenment is a, um, like a philosophical movement and it was really prominent in Europe during the 18th century. So exactly where we are. It is a theory. It's a philosophy. There's two kind of strands to it. The first is radical enlightenment, which is all about democracy. It's about liberty. It is about freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and eradication of religious authority. So really strong. Wow, okay. This stuff, right? For some, for particularly for a country that. Hasn't experienced those things. And then the second strand is a lot more, it's like a tone down version of that. It's like, you know, we're just gonna remove the base so it's more moderate. Kind of finding a balance between reform and the traditional system. So it has the same ideals of democracy and free speech, but is a little bit softer in its approach. So this is what is underpinning Catherine's reign, right? And this is from her education. It's from her learning, she also listened to people. She would pull in experts. She'd be like, I'm not the expert on this. You tell me. You teach me. And she, it was coming from a real place of discovery, Why don't we all do that? That's amazing. Yeah. Yep. She did many other things. So she expanded the empire's borders, which is always a sign of a very good leader. She spearheaded, judicial and. Administrative forum. So this is basically things like setting up a justice system, setting up a finance system, and you know, really kind of dragging the country right up to modern day, right? the way she does this is using a document called the statute for the administration of the provinces of the Russian Empire. Whew. She publishes that document. It's a living, breathing document, as we would say in the world. And, it basically, well, I've got a little quote that I was hoping you could read just to explain what that document does. The statute set out instructions on the general care and wellbeing of the Russian people with boards of social welfare formed under the governor. In each provincial capital, the social welfare Board oversaw hospitals, workhouses owns houses, and the house of correction. So social worker, very modern. Yeah. Like big deal or we all have a consistent approach. This is what it's gonna be. It's been advised by experts and work non in collaboration and we will revise it if something better comes along. How progressive, how modern, how progressive. So cool. Also progressive. She dabbled in vaccinations. She kind of was an advocate of that. And she also was really. Fond of the art. So she created a vast art collection that formed, a museum, one of the greatest, museums, in terms of volume. And, on top of all that, she wrote children's stories. She was like, think of the children, which is, there's nothing she cannot do. And education. Children very much at the forefront of what she was, um, doing as a leader. So she believed that all Russian children should, um, be getting a European style education. And she was also passionate about equality in education. So not only were the boys taught, the girls were taught too, ah, yes. She appointed Ivan Besol as her educational advisor. Again, pulling in that. He advised her that you should probably set up a commission. And she did that. She met with other educational pioneers. So it was like a good variety of thought. So the educational system was one of her biggest reforms basically. It was really transformative. There's just a tiny little quote there about it. If you could read that, please. The Russian statute of national Education established a two tier system of primary and high schools free for children of all classes. Except surfs? Oh, yes. Oh. Where is this story heading now? Yeah. But so the first part of that quote, brilliant two to his system. So you know, the higher you get, the more complex your education gets. It's free for children of all classes. Brilliant. Final two words. So, serves are basically Russia's slave system. Right. And it was something that Catherine inherited., She didn't set out to make a slave system. It is just something that was happening in Russia at that time. Now, she didn't stop the slave system. It's really important to note that She wasn't an abolitionist, but she did make reforms to the system. So, you know, we can't sit here and be like, she was the best thing ever because she could have done more in this field, but she did make reforms in that field. She prohibited, former serves or slaves from being. Becoming surfs again. So once you were out, you were out. And she set up a lot of, formal bureaucracies, which meant that freedom was much easier to come by and much easier to apply for. So she kind of shook the system up, I guess, in that way. She also allowed slaves to make complaints against their landowners. And on the face of that, you think, oh, that's really good. That's brilliant. But what that really was, was a little bit naughty because okay, there's a complaints process for you. What that does is stop them from revolting and stop them from uprising. Oh. So it's kind of like in a bad workplace where they're like, oh yeah, we have a procedure for that with hr, and then it just vanishes into room 1 0 1 and basically it's like, we've dealt with that due to process, blah, blah, blah. I tick that box. Done. Yeah. Yeah. Ew. And. She didn't want rebellions and she didn't want revolt. She, but we, she was living in such a turbulent time and doing so much reform that rebellions were very much part of the course. Really. And it was something that I think was probably one of her biggest challenges as, a leader. And there was a rebellion in, 70 73 to 70 75, but this was quashed, along with so many more. I think there was 12 rebellions over her. Wow. 30 plus year reigns. That's like. One almost every two, three years. Right. That's a lot. That's of rebellions. And also, I guess that leads into the question that was everybody on board with the enlightenment? Probably not exactly. Like it's dragging people kicking and screaming out of their comfort zone because future, isn't it, I guess. Yeah. Still too many rebellions. So many rebellions and. But she, held power throughout the mall. She was very in control, very firm. And, she also is desperate for peace and diplomacy and her role. So that was, like I said, one of the pillars of enlightenment at the top. That was something she really wanted. And actually on a political international stage. Russia became known as an international mediator. So there were some wars that Russia was mediating, so the war of, Barian succession, which was between Priya and Austria, for example. And she also established the League of Armed Neutrality in 1780, which she was protecting the neutral interest from the British Royal Navy during the America Revolution. Right. So she was very key worse, a proto nato, like she's out there. Yeah. It's good. Yeah. Seemed to be the reliable, steady hand, like clear head. Mm-hmm. That's very cool. And if you compare that to what. Peter II was doing, which was just throwing his toys out the pram and dumping around, dragging people into war that they didn't need to be involved in. Yeah. It's completely different, completely the other way around. And it just shows that she had those skills, she had those leadership and those, world changing skills within her, and she was steadfast in that, which was really, and again, this is all stuff that you don't think about when you think about Catherine The Gray. You don't think about, I have no idea any of this idea. It was really fascinating and on top of all that, she was often known for her grace and kindness and dignity. Something else Peter didn't do. It's fascinating and I'm not saying she's perfect because we've got the slavery., And her love life was, known for ridicule and you know, many lovers, but I'm not saying that's bad, I'm just saying at the time it was seen as scandalous. And, she was also known to be egotistical, quite vain, pretentious, domineering, all those things which I imagine come with power. They're very things that you could describe some of the world leaders today as, so to me she was on par. Like it does. There's a shadow side that comes with a. A thirst for power and an aptitude for power. And I'm also feeling like I'm hearing echoes of Joanna there. Like you, you, the apple does not fall far from the tree, maybe. Absolutely. Joanna. And I, and she brought her daughter up to want more and want better and be the best. And you are gonna be e egotistical, vain, and pretentious. Off the back of that. And also I think no matter what realm you are in, because even all those words make me think of Walt Disney as well. Like he was, he had this facade of Walt Disney, the character that we know, world's happiest place, whatever it is. And now, and then, but on this flip side, he was, he was a ruthless leader and he was cutthroat. And that is, you know, it's the ebb and flow, I guess, of leading sometimes. So she did a lot, Catherine. She was very busy. She really did. She died at the age of 67 on the 17th of November, 1796 after suffering what is thought to be a stroke. But she has an outstanding legacy. She's known as Catherine the Great, and that endures to this day. Perhaps most impressively, she wielded power for three decades. Despite those uprisings. And despite that, she didn't really have any claim to the throne. She wasn't born into the throne. She married into the throne and then killed the person who should have been on the throne. Um, she, well, my client allegedly, allegedly killed. Sorry about that. Yeah. And me, you don't get that by. Sheer look, you get that through hard work and determination. She did, like you said, dragged Russia into the modern world, kicking and screaming. And she did largely succeed in doing that. And she got children loads of education because of that. She got justice system. Because of that, there's so many things that she did that have been forgotten, and sadly, the average person on the street is more likely to. And know her for the urban myth that she died having sex on a horse. So while the myths may linger, remember this, Catherine the greats was a force of intellect and will she seized her power. She understood what she needed, she. Absolutely modernized nation at that time and engaged with the greatest minds that she could find. Her true legacy lies not in sensational stories, but in her profound and lasting transformation of Russia. Well, thank you so much, much. I was one of the ignorant, benighted people who only knew, knew you, the fleas. Yeah. Isn't it just typical that a way to undermine a woman of accomplishment and power. Is to say something s muddy about her, you know? Yeah. Agree. That like slut shaming. Despite the fact that she was changing things and we all hate change, She was still in power for three decades in a time of constant turmoil and uprising. Yeah, that speaks volumes'cause clearly from what happened to her little Peter. They would depose a bitch if they did not. Like, if the people did not like it, that person's gone. So, clearly despite doing things that people would've found uncomfortable, she was benefiting the nation. Yeah. No, I like her. And an amazing crown. Yeah. What's not to love? On top of everything else, super du.

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