34. African History and Culture with Luke Pepera

Exploring African History with Luke Pepera

In this episode, Cara and Vicky welcome guest Luke Pepera, a Ghanaian-born, Oxford-educated historian and author of African History book 'Motherland.' Luke discusses his journey into African history and mythology, African American history, sharing insights about influential female figures and the rich oral traditions of the continent. The conversation highlights African queens like Injinga Mbande and Amanirenas, significant for their leadership and warrior roles. Luke also touches on his passion for storytelling, and how his work aims to broaden perspectives on African culture and history. The episode concludes with information on Luke's book and where to purchase it.

https://www.waterstones.com/book/motherland/luke-pepera/9781398707368

00:00 Introduction and Greetings
00:43 Welcoming the First Guest: Luke Peper
00:59 Diving into African History
06:35 Luke's Journey into African History
10:52 From Blogging to Publishing: The Making of 'Motherland'
13:32 The Evolution of Storytelling and African Folklore
18:45 Anansi: The Trickster's Journey Across Cultures
22:40 The Role of Oral Storytelling in African Cultures
27:02 Warrior Queens of Africa: Stories of Resilience and Power
34:14 The Influence of African Female Figures in History
42:00 Conclusion and Book Synopsis

Transcript

audio1473636161: 0:08

Kara is American, you see? So you've, yes. The exclusive time that I'll be happy to speak for my country at the moment. You don't, as an American, you don't wanna do that, but yeah, like, congratulations. That's really, really cool. Very cool. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. So yeah, so looking forward to, yeah. Getting stuck into it. Hi Cara. Hi Vicki. Hi. How are you? I'm well, thank you. How are you doing today? I'm very excited today'cause um, I, I get to speak to you most weeks, which is wonderful. But today don't play that down. That's Come on. That's true. Sorry. Uh, but today we have the wonderful loop of para with us. We've got our first guest on the sheet. Yay. Podcast. Oh, I might, oh gosh. Wow. I'm honored. Good pressure. Thank you. No, no. Honestly, it's a, it's a privilege. Brilliant. Really to be here. No, thank you for being here. And we're gonna chat about all the things. African history today. We've kind of, what have we done? We've kind of skirted on African history a little bit, but we can't wait to dive in, so I've got a little introduction for us, if that's okay. We are incredibly excited to welcome Luke Peper, a Ghanaian born Oxford educated historian. Luke is truly revolutionizing how we engage with African history. As an insightful author of Motherland, moving us beyond common narratives to uncover the rich. Diverse and often surprising stories of the continent's past. Prepare to have your perspective broadened and your understanding enriched. Welcome, Luke. Thank you. Really kind introduction. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank so we actually crossed paths, didn't we? The way our past across a Gloucester history which I think Karara was the main source of I think you introduced me to it, Karara. I've, I've wanted to go for a few years. This is the first year I've actually made it. And Luke, your talk was the standout thing that I thought. This is, this is the thing we're gonna plan our day around. So yeah, we were so excited to, to hear you and to learn some more. Yeah, thank you. No, yes, exactly. It was Gloucester and um, um, you know, it was a real pleasure to meet you guys. also had some really lovely photos as well, which I asked if I could, if I could like repos.'cause they were like really nice and, yeah. Organized me to come onto your, um, yeah, onto podcast. Um, you know, focusing on, on women history. And that is, um, you know, that's, that's a topic that, definitely fits very neatly into, into African history and African culture as well. Um,'cause it's full of, um, well just, well, first extraordinary female figures, but actually it's a, there's a particular historical and cultural. Attitude in many African societies, um, towards women, which, um, people, are a little bit more familiar, um, with let's say, you know, Western history you know, might not know about, and, um, something that's quite novel. Nice. Um, did you get any other photos? Was it just my dodgy Instagram? No, there, uh, the night, so I got, uh, I think, I don't know. I mean, I think maybe there was, um, one, one other person who took like, some of me on stage. So I got some really nice photos of people kind of afterwards and around. But um, on, you know, on on, on stage itself, they were kind of few and far between and I didn't really have the foresight to kind of had somewhere phone. It'd be all like a, you know, I would've tried a lot harder if I knew No, no, it was honestly, it was great. We were all, we were spell bound. Nobody was whipping their phone out. You should take that as a massive confidence. It was. I do take that as a, I do take that as a huge compliment, honestly. And, um, and it's so kind of, you say that, um, you know, you, that you, you enjoyed talk so much and that was the one that you were kind of looking forward to as well. Yeah, absolutely. That's really, that's pretty, um, well attended I thought as well. There was a lot of people there. Yes. Yes. And there was, yeah. So, um, yeah, no nerves at all talking to that, uh, a house that was slightly fuller than, than that I had kind of envisaged. But, uh, you know, as, as, as kind of a debut. And, and, and it's funny actually'cause I. You know, um, I'm sort of still working out how to do kind of talks. I would say that I'm probably better naturally in, in conversation and when I can kind of bounce off, uh, you know, what, uh, an interviewer and what the interviewer is saying and the points they pick up on. And it really helped spark like, fresh insights to me. And this was one of the, a few talks, I think even I potentially even the first one where I was actually just, you know, it was on my own notes presenting to an audience and I'd actually kind of written something and it was half scripted, half bullet points.'cause I couldn't really decide what to do. I think sometimes if it's, um, too scripted, you, you're not engaging with the audience enough. But you know, the, the trouble with things, something that's too bullet pointed you can swear away from main points. Um, so actually I did something in between and there was a script, actually a bit of a script that I wanted to follow. And, um, about half, about halfway through I realized that's something I planned to say later I'd already said. So that kind of like threw me off like a little bit, but I was just like, you know, I was kind of at the flow anyway. And I know I kind of break it down into stories and I know which stories people, people are interested in and, and kind of like as well, and, and that are kind of, you know, in, they're interesting in of itself, but they're also crowd pleasers. So, um, I think you're giving, um, Kara a heart attack. We, we approach our podcast very differently and Kara is a script lady, aren't you? You're, yes. I don't, I don't wanna engage with human beings. I just wanna read from a page and then go, go about my business. Vicky's approach is so much sim similar to yours though, the, you know, little blocks of main points, couple of bullets, and. Interestingly from the outside,'cause we're in the audience here on the stage and having that experience, I had no idea. I had no idea that things had gone a little, well, I should, I should have kept it a secret there. There we go. But no things, and you know, I think I realized that that was maybe actually just the natural flow and you know, the way I was doing it in the script was probably not as natural. So actually when I went with that, I said, actually this feels, this feels natural. So lemme go with that. Which is why hopefully it didn't come across as too, but then that means you guys compliment each other.'cause then you kind of all have, you know, I think has the sort of bullet points and it's a little more, you know, flow a little bit more loosely and then Kara the script. It's actually, it's actually, it's actually a great balance to have. So, um, yeah, yeah, definitely. But, uh, yeah, but it was, yeah, we cover all bases I think. Yeah, exactly. But I would know it was fun being there and getting to talk to, you know, about African history too, um, to, to such an engaged audience with, you know. Awesome members like yourself, and then to meet people afterwards. So, well, tell us more, tell us more about your, for the listeners, your background mm-hmm. What, how you got into this African history,'Cause this is your, this is your career now. This is your job. So how, how on earth did that happen?'cause it's very exciting. Yes. So, um, I, um, I was. Born in Ghana, um, and, and raised in Ghana, um, before coming to the UK at an early age. And then, you know, all the way up to, um, university. And I'd always been interested in, um, sort of history, mythology, culture, um, and also, uh, storytelling more generally, I'd say right story writing, but storytelling more. Um, and initially that was uh, Greek myths and, uh, Roman myths and legends, um, is what I'd been attracted to. And, um, as I was, uh, you know, ending, at school and working out what I what I, wanted to do, especially for university, et cetera. But it was actually. At the end of the school, we had to do, uh, like a personal um, which, um, you know, count towards our final grades. But the subject, we were quite open in what we could do it about. And I decided to do mine about, um, uh, an element of Ghanaian, of of, of Ghanaian African history. Actually no one really, um, has explored any African history. Um, so, um, you know, as you're going, you could have scope to do that. Um, so I thought actually, yeah, that, you know, I don't even know a lot about that, that history in particular, but then also the history of my, um, you know, a lot of, you know, you, a lot of my own heritage, the deeper history of, of, of the ethnic groups. Um, like, um, the Ghanaian ethic group, the shanty or the who kind of form my background and my heritage. Um, so I, I decided actually that, yeah, that might be quite interesting to explore. So I actually wanted to do a project on, uh, the history of the. Uh, of the, one of the ethnic groups, um, that I belong to in Ghana. Um, and my first point of call was the, national Museum of Ghana, where I thought I'd find some more general information. I. Um, and when I went, I found that there wasn't really much, much there apart information artifacts relating to trans-Atlantic slavery and colonialism. And, but I knew that there was a lot more to African history than this.'cause I just sort of encountered it, you know, always going back or traveling back to Ghana. You know, you see a lot of the cultural value, the sort of masks and drums and songs and, um, you know, stories. It's, it's kind of all there. So, you know that there was, you know, there is a deeper ha uh, deeper past. There is a deeper culture, but it wasn't really being brought out in any conscious or intellectual way. And, and the museum was kind of representative of that. Um, but, um, there was actually an element where, where it sort of was, and that was at, um, the university. So, um, you know, my second point of call is that I, I managed to get in touch with a couple of. Professors at the University of Ghana, and one of them, for instance, showed me this museum at the back of the, um, of the archeology department, um, which housed, uh, Ghanaian artifacts dating to, uh, 500 ad. And they were, um, they were iron working artifacts, so used to, uh, make iron implements and also uh, the instruments or the implements themselves. Um, and that, you know, all the, the information that I got from these professors and some of the resources they recommended me, et cetera, allowed me to kind of complete my, um. to, to complete my project. Um, but I'd kind of become, um, you know, I kind of got an introduction, um, to lead the, you know, to to that history and, and to that archeology. And that was just for one group of people or even in just one country. So I was exci, you know, I was keen to know if, you know what, what else lay beyond, um, even just gone, I mean more in Ghana, but then, you know, I knew that I'd be able to discover more in Ghana, but also what laid beyond that too. Um, so that prompted me then when,'cause this was at, you know, end of school year. So that prompted me want to study. Or, you know, it was end of my school time. So that prompted me to want to study um, at, um, at university because I thought that would be, um, one way to, um, interrogate, interrogate this past. And there I did a module on the formation of Sub-Saharan States, existed between the 11th centuries in Zimbabwe. And they built this massive stone city of concentric circles and were trading, you know, had trade links with, um, the Indians and the Chinese, and then also the East Africans coast. And, uh, the empires of Garsa and Mali between the ninth and 16th, 17th centuries. And their trade across the Sahara and the Met. There was just so much information Yeah. Um, there to, to, to dig my teeth, dig my teeth, teeth into, um. After I graduated, there was sort of this Venn diagram existing sort of in, in my mind, art, uh, of Africa, history and storytelling. Yeah. All kind of, you know, sort of, I, I wanted to do something at the confluence of that connected these things together. When I left university, I started, um, writing, but actually I was writing, um, sort of fiction stories initially, so that was kind of the storytelling side, but that were allowing me to kind of, um, develop my creativity, Um, and then that, and then that kind of transitioned into doing some about, you know, doing, doing some stories, um, including sort of a young adult novel, which was a. a novelization of this guardian myth. So that was kind of where the Africa writing storytelling came, uh, came into being. Um, and then this is very creative. Yeah, well, I was just trying at the time, I was just trying different things, but then that later on developed into a blog about, um, African history and culture. So those were kind of nonfiction you know, it's just think pieces about different elements of African history and culture that came to mind. And actually a lot of those blog pieces found, formed the foundation of the, of the chapters in Motherland. I later realized, I went back and looked at some of them not too long ago So I did one on, I did a, a, a blog piece on, uh, the Veneration of Ancestors, and then that kind of that, that's a chapter I also, I do in Motherland So I was, I was doing this blog, um, maintaining it and trying to kind of engage. People, you know, find a way to kind of break into, um, like I said, telling stories about Africa, And wasn't, wasn't actually getting much traction to be perfectly honest. During lockdown, actually in lockdown. was 2020. And it was also just after the George Floyd, uh, you know, the, the George Floyd incident and all the protests, et cetera. Kate Williams had basically posted on Twitter saying, anyone of. African Sense who's interested in getting into history, being a historian, she messaged me and I was familiar with her and familiar with her work. I've watched her on TV in particular. So I just got in touch with her, basically asking for advice. I said, I've written this blog. Her advice was that if you, you know, when I wrote to her, she said, uh, you know, your stuff on the blog is interesting. It's pretty interesting. Um, if you want to do tv, the best thing to do initially would do a, book. Um, and then you can go from there basically. And so this is just one piece, Midland is one piece with this mother was Exactly. Well, it was, but it was just, you know, how do I put it? I think it's, you know, I've tried to kind of, um, tell the story in, in as broad strokes as I can so that it's not too, um, you know, it, it doesn't become too boring or over detailed I say sometimes people that motherland as whether nonfiction history is one of the last things I kind of kept I, I'd, I'd kind of come to,'cause I'd, um, I'd, I'd, you know, I tried everything else. I'd even done a, I'd even done a, um. So just before I was in touch with Kate Williams and just after I tried with the novels and, and you know, I'd done the short stories, the novels and the blogs, I'd, um, done this part-time filmmaking course and it met film school in Ling and it was basically just a, it was a part-time course and at the end of it you basically made like a short film. And again, that film explored elements of African culture and heritage, including the Africa or Ghanaian Folklore Hero, um, and Ansy, who's sort of our god of mythology and storytelling. And he was also the main character of, of the novel. So again, that was. The confluence of writing Africa and storytelling, all these things that had kind of existed in me for a little bit. And I was just trying to get a structure and find out how to really, and just how to make it work in reality as it were. After I'd got in touch with, Kate and showed her my stuff and she gave me that advice and she was the one who me to, um, the people who could actually make, my plans or my, my, dreams and my ambitions are a reality. So, for instance, she you know, to an agent. And, and it was, you know, with them I was able, I worked on the proposal for what is now motherland, basically. Wow. So we just had discussions, to, to, to flesh out the idea. And then that was what. an editor was kind of interested. Oh, from a tweet. Oh, from a tweet, isn't that, or from a tweet. Yeah. Or from a tweet. But I think, you know, also wanna say is that yes for, you know, from the Twitter, but you know, again, I'd got in touch with so many people, like friends. I tried, anyone who I'd met friends. I'll say, if you, anybody you known in sort of documentaries or in, films, I mean, even in between as well, I'd done some like, you know, uh, uh, tutoring just to kind of, you know, just to kind of keep active. Um, but, you know, trying to, but then I get in touch with, like I said, producers, um, people who worked in journalism, um, academics. Just trying to find, you know, what, creative industries are so hard to navigate, aren't they? They're so difficult to find your place and what's keeping authentic as well. Yes, exactly. Through to what you wanna say and what you wanna do. Exactly. And I think it's, you know, it's basically because you are left. For the most part to kind of work it out for your, for yourself. You know, it's, there's no, there's no structure so much, you know, there's no graduate scheme as it were on becoming populist but it's just, I think, really important just to, to, I think having a body of material, like I, I, at least what I think what worked for me was having a body of material, IE the blog and then, um, and then, uh, just trying to get in touch with as many people as possible. Um, and oh, this started as a blog. This, right. Okay. Was a blog like. It's had many iterations, I guess. Actually some of the episodes have pulled directly from the blog much like you did because, you know, I know the stories are exciting. I know that they've got the wow factors and the moments that make people remember the stories and, you know, and it saves times to say, I've done all this research already, I think as, as well, you're, what I'm noticing about both of you is that you have a real clarity about what you're interested in and wanting to share that. You can afford then to be flexible about the how, like you're gonna attack it. You're gonna try every way that you can, because what you are really interested in is that story and sharing it how it gets to people. That's fine. Whatever works. That's really practical and very cool to just, you know, keep trying. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I think industries move on a little bit, don't they? Because, well, I say that books are stood the test of time, haven't they?'cause there was that period where it was like, was it eBooks or Kindles were like out doing like. Paper books. And now it seems to have flipped out the other way, but like podcasting is still quite in its infancy, I think, isn't it? And yeah, podcasting and audio for sure. And I think audio books as well, you know, will become probably the next thing that people kind of engage with and enjoy. And kind of what, with Kara said is that, you know, if you have a. if you know what you wanna share and you just have a passion of sharing something, I think you just, you just do that in, in whatever format and then you find the one that kind of works for you. I think I've tried probably, and often I will, I will do something just to try it. Um, you for the most part, you know, if the odd scene kind of presents itself, um, and working out if it kind of fits for me.'cause I think the thing that you're more likely, you know, you are more likely to succeed is the thing you're more likely to do more of. And the thing you're more likely to do more of is the thing that you enjoy. So I really like, writing and, and books for example. But as Kara said, it's all to do with just sharing, um, you know, sharing. For me it's about sharing stories and knowledge and information about the deeper African past African history and culture. That's kind of the foundation. I loved you mentioning Anande because we had a librarian when I was a very young girl who brought those stories to us, and that was like the best part of school. She would sit us all down and, and read these tales. And, um, your enjoyment and love of it just comes through, you know, like it, I, I wonder, this being. She changed history. I, I won't kind of crack on about Anan Saver too awful long, but I wonder if there are other figures from folklore who sort of resonated with you in that way and bonus points if they are female.'cause Well, it's interesting you mentioned the female'cause actually in the American South, and Nancy himself was transformed into a female figure, um, auntie Nancy. Ah, um, so he actually kind of trans, so he, he becomes,'cause what he is in Ghana and actually in Jamaica and then obviously in the American South, is that even in these societies that obviously are kind of culturally historically related, but um, have had, you know, the people who live within them have obviously had different, different experiences. Um, and, and the Africans and especially the AAN that the larger group of people who lived in the regional territory of what's now Ghana and who were, one of the primary groups who were, um, sort of enslaved in traffic to the Caribbean and then also to the American South. But in all of them and Nancy functions as a figure of, um, of, of freedom actually. So in. In traditional account society, um, in West Africa, it's a society that's seen as being quite, um, quite restrictive and quite hierarchical. It's quite like rule-based and, you know, there are different, codes of conduct and behavior and respect that you have to accord to different people and in the stories. And an is this chaotic figure who breaks all the rules and does what he wants. And part of the reason for that is actually provides a, a almost a catharsis for people who feel frustrated with having to follow all the rules in, in society. So that's one of the reason to tell the story. And then in Jamaica, he acted as this, um. Uh, as this disruptive figure. And so he's like the un I mean, even in, in a can, he's the underdog. But in Jamaica, he's kind of this underdog figure who is outsmarting all these figures who are much more powerful than him. And, and, and through that gaining his freedom, which is what the enslaved, um, a can in Jamaica were, were inspired to do, you know, with their masters. So it was, he was basically a figure of rebellion. He was this, you know, this figure of rebellion and, and resilience in difficult times. And it was kind of a similar thing in, in, in the American South. But then also, like I said, he transforms con female'cause he takes on a much more, maybe I would say like arguably traditionally maternal, aspect and instinct, and he's about looking out for his people and making sure that they're, that they're, um, comfortable um, and you know, again, there's that influence and importance of, of the female figure in African American culture. Um, as, uh, you know, The, the mothers of figure and so seen as foundational support, in the community. And I think that has something to do with, an Nancy's transition. I mean, in Ghana as well. There's a figure. I mean, it's, she's sort of the opposite. It's quite funny, but there's a folk girl figure called, um, mommy Water, um, who I think has also made, I don't know, um. Uh, she's not as international. I mean, and Nancy is quite extraordinary because he has this international, like you mentioned, uh, people telling, you know, sort of telling stories about him when you were young. I mean, he is, he's, he's achieved this kind of, international and even to an extent, pop culture recognition. You know, he exists in novels. He's in Neil Gamer novels and he's in comic books and he's in, you know, he's in loads of different media. I don't think mommy water, this same figure has kind of had, but she's basically almost like a water spirit, uh, who tempts, misbehaving men to their doom essentially. So she's, that could be obviously, if I remember correctly, we, we love a dangerous woman. That's, that's right. F it's, it's kind of, the men, who are kind of, uh, you know, they're, they're adulterers or my wife beats us, that kind of thing. She's, she's almost like that figure of like retribution, towards him. Okay. Um, and, that's kind of the influencer position she holds in traditional account society and just, and this quite, like a feared but also spiritual figure. And obviously she's connected with, um, this powerful, um, but also pure spiritual force, which is water obviously, you know, she said to reside in water formations. Um, and laws, these people who are prone to, um, misbehaving Brandon also mistreated women to a certain kind of Yeah. Certain kind of doom. Um, uh, yes, acts is nothing. So there's, there's sort of an anti transition and there's this one figure who's also quite well known in the a can context. Isn't it interesting that there's probably so many things like that in our society that have African heritage and of source from Africa, um, that you wouldn't necessarily, because there's something isn't rap from Ghana and as well. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Well I think it's very organized specifically, but I think rap and then especially, rap battles, the United States states share a lot of elements and features that can be traced back to Africa. Oral storytelling, the oral form, word games, riddling games, just oral literature is just, is so incredibly developed in Africa. I mean, we as a, you know, we as a, we as a, we as a species generally, you know, human being sort of storytelling and oral storytelling as a border. But in Africa, that tradition has been maintained. So in so many African cultures, you have hereditary storytellers, whether it's the Ochi army in, in Ghana, or or the Grios just above Ghana, sort of what's, what's subscribed as the, uh, as the Sahel, which is the western part of Sudan, ary storytellers and it's just, they're a, they're a group of people, a cast, a cast in society whose job it is to, Remember, or record, remember, and pass down, the history. And so, um, in African cultures especially just, um, orally, lyrically are very well practiced. And a lot of that, for lack of a better word, talent, but a lot of that history and a lot of that heritage, um, found its way obviously to, um mm-hmm. You know, to, to the United States via, the Africans who, who existed in that society early on and I do wanna stress that, rap is, very much an African American form. Like, it's, it's not, it, I think it, it has one can argue definitely for its roots being an African eye. And I, and I do think, and could put evidence, forward for its roots being there, but it couldn't have as it is now as Wrap is now. And, and as it developed, it couldn't have developed probably anywhere else than in that context, Of America and of, and, of the Africans in America too. Yeah. I was thinking how oral traditions they must bring such a sense of belonging because you referenced it there as a role. It was a role for people to do and gosh, the. That is, that is a very important job, isn't it? Yes, yes, yes. And, uh, you know, exactly. I mean, this even ties into the African, the entire African conception of history itself, is that,, what is recorded and remembered is, what's important for ensuring, maintaining, and ensuring social and cultural cohesion. It's about getting people to understand who they are, why they are, and why it's important that they understand who they are and why they are. And that's also doing with, with fostering. So, uh, you would notice a lot of the traditional, you know, in the narratives of a lot of the traditional storytellers, the people's whose job it is to, is to record. Yes. And, you know, and in, you know, I mentioned those West African storytellers, the Greers, in, the Saha, et cetera. What's interesting with'em particularly is that, you know, that role was not a role that was restricted to, to men. You had, female, GREs as well, but then they were actually, I mean, the GREs generally, both men and women were more than just storytellers or historians. They also performed other roles in society. So, for example,, in certain cultures in part of Africa, the female, GREs, would help to, for example, attend a bride during her wedding day, for instance, as well as remembering the history. There was, there was actually complete, Equality Greers. And actually even in Senegal in the 20th century, there were these, um, and I, me, I mentioned them briefly actually in But there's a group of women called, um, uh, que, which means, uh, like women living in opulence and elegance, and they're essentially wealthy. I mean, they're essentially wealthy. They're independently wealthy, well respected women, and they sort of travel around, you know, they're usually like, um, you know, they're usually involved in some kind of, um, business or commerce, and they travel around with these massive entourages, including female greers and one of their jobs. And this is a job for all Greers, but in this particular context, or this is a job all Greers do, but in this particular context, um, the female growers who travel with them and, you know, they're, they're kind of, um, patronized by them. So, you know, the, the durian, the, the, rich women will kind of pay them for these services, but one of the things they do is they go around singing what's called pray songs in honor of these women saying, uh, you know, you're so wonderful and you're so right and your ancestors, uh, wow, you know, are phenomenal. And, and, and it, and it's, and it all, it all goes to raising the woman's prestige such that when she, um, is in, you know, let's say a group with, potential contacts or business contact, she's seen as, as, as being a person with whom they would certainly want to do, want to do business. Um, nice sort of. Please. Sounds great. Um, so I could listen to you talk all day. It's ridiculous, do you have any women from either the research in your book or, from your, vast amount of knowledge, in African history that, we think people should know about more? I mean, yes, certainly. Off the top of my head I kind of have, um, two or three who kind of really impressed me. One is top three. The top three. One is the, one is the, 17th Century Queen of, uh, the Kingdom of Ingo, um, in Dongo existed in what's now Northern Angola. And her name is, inj and Bande. And she's particularly phenomenal because she was the first queen of her kingdom. I mean, in, in, in first Queen of Ingo, uh, in, in Dongo, women had always been, important and, and, and respected. They'd always taken part in, um. Uh, affairs, political affairs and, economic affairs and current affairs, they had always been, um, relatively independent, in the sense that, they weren't, that they didn't need to marry, for example, to to ensure that they could live or they were looked after. They could divorce, uh, for whatever reason they wished, um, they weren't viewed as property in any way. Um, but there had not yet been by the 17th century, a female king whose people sort of remembered. I mean, maybe in, in, in INGO's distant past there had been, um, female founders so, um, Injinga is the first. Um, but she is, um, well remembered in Angola today basically for almost single handedly ensuring the maintenance of the sovereignty of her kingdom in the face of increasing Portuguese, um, expansion, especially in West central Africa. Like I said, active in, in sort of uh, late 16th to the mid 17th century. And she fights against the Portuguese for about, you know, for, for close to 50 years. But she's,, often on the battlefield herself, directly engaged in the conflict, against them. So she's absolutely phenomenal. We find this with a lot of our women, you know, don't we Kara, they're always on the battlefield. They're always hands on. Yep. Yeah. They're so hands not afraid to get hands-on. Yeah. Yes, yes. That's why she just perfectly fits the description of a Warrior Queen. And I find that a lot of these figures, female, historical female figures were exactly that. I mean, they were. Queens in the sense that they were the highest authority in their kingdom and they governed their kingdom and they did all the kind the day-to-day running of the kingdom as it were, the day-to-day governance. But, um, they revolved in all aspects, including warfare. And when there were, in the midst of the fray, often a lot more than, some kings were in most instances actually. So the, so I would say in j more than the second. And these are, uh, you know, in Jingga write about in land. The second is Armani Rees, uh, about whom we don't know. Her name is Armani Rees, about whom we don't have as much, information, but she lived, um, around the turn of the millennium. So say, you know, 2020 BC to around 10 80. So around that time,, in Nubia, which is essentially what's now Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt. And she was one of Group of female figures that are collectively called ba, uh, collectively known as the kanke these were basically, queen mothers in Kush who at one point in the Kingdom independently. Yeah. So in Kush, oh, sorry. Uh, Kush is just for a, another word for we did an episode on. Yeah, now you go. So then your listeners will come. Yeah. We know a little bit, and then your listeners already be, um, ready, be familiar, So the Nubia was sort of the, the country in, in the location that I described, Northern Sudan, Southern Egypt. And in that country the Nubians had three kingdoms, so there was karma which existed from which, um, I mean it is as old as 5,000 bc It's crazy, crazy, isn't it? The timeframes insane. 5,000 BC to I think, actually, I think to around 15, 1500 BC. Correct. And then there was Napita, um, which was around 800 bcs, around 300 bc. And then there was, because that sort of the in between part is when the Egyptians kind of Yeah, the Egyptians sort of took, uh, invaded and conquered, um, Um, and then, yes, Napita, then me, BC to Um, during, the Napan period, so from about 800 BC I mean, and since Karma, women had always been important, but in, in karma, they'd have more like religious roles, socio religious roles. So they were important priestesses, the administration. And they performed rituals that helped,, deepen the king's relationship with the gods essentially. Um, and then in 800 BC their importance increase so that the founder of the, uh, nap and dynasty, a nubbin King, called Lara, basically made it so that, Pite kingship became elective. So before that, it was, probably, for the most part, primogenitor, so at least one of the sons of the former king would inherit, but, RA made it so that, um, there would be an election held between, sons of, uh, also his sons. But then also the sons of his sisters as well. So his nephews and the generals and the important officials in Kush, would basically, they would basically, uh, converse and, and argue amongst themselves as to who and they would elect them. And what happened is that when the king was elected and their mother took on the position of, uh, the queen mother and the queen mother was, was, was arguably in Kush. I mean, she had a really important role in deciding who the next would be. So the king, so the queen, mother of the king who just died basically would have an important role in deciding who the next elect would be amongst that dead king's, uh, children or his nephews, et cetera. Mm-hmm. And then when. The EE was chosen, that person's mother would become the new queen mother. And when the kings, oh gosh. Oh yeah. Would so change. So before the ee could be officially confirmed as the new King of Kush, you would have to travel around all the important cities in Nubia, and, um, at each, temple, in the cities, he would basically have to confirmed in his role by, by the God moon. And this took part, um, you know, this happened as part of a special ceremony, but one of the really important parts of that ceremony is that his mother, the queen mother, would have to come and basically give a speech asking Aman to consecrate her son, such that he could rule rule Nubia and. If that ritual that was done by the queen mother wasn't completed, then the king was not allowed to rule. So she was, she was directly using control. Yeah. Yeah. She was directly part of that process of making, of making him the next queen. And part of the reason for that is that Egyptians and Nubian shared a lot of their religion, a lot of their cosmology with each other, but in Nubia, the Godde ISIS was important and, obviously her son Horace was important. In the physical world where the new newborns actually lived, they saw the queen mother as isis, not even, as a representative, they saw literary as Isis and they saw the sun literaries liter as Horace. And as part of the stories is Isis she kind of, you know, she raises him, to take over his king. And that was kind of being paralleled in the Nubian world, was that the queen mother was raising her son to be an effective ruler. So in that case, she was phenomenally, phenomenally important. And this, I think this is important to mention'cause this is the foundation on which, um, that queen I mentioned the start, Armani Re and the Kandan case in general, uh, those kind of female autocratic, rulers of Kush came into being, is that, you know, supporter realized that female importance and, power was baked into, Nubian society mostly it's the queen mother and her son, but sometimes it's actually, the, wife, or the king and the queen, you know, husband. And this was the case with, Armani Renus, you know, she kind of rules her husband is uh, Tarica. And she rules mostly alongside him, So for instance, when the Romans, invade or invade and conquer Egypt, and they have this plan to conquer both Western Asia and Nuba at the same time. They want to you is they make, incursions into, then the Northern Nubians rebel, um, a movement and then the Romans kind of come back at them. But actually when the Nubians rebel, uh. Tarka and Armani Rena support the rebellion. Um, so they directly engaged in the conflict against them. And then when the Romans kind of push back, Amanirenas actually, takes over and she's described Greek historian Strayer, is being this kind of fearsome one-eyed warrior queen. It's just terrifying. You know, it was almost like this kind of, you know, the Amazon of legend. Yeah, and actually there, yeah, there are a steel line relief where the queen is represented as being, bigger and larger, more powerful than, or, you know, the, the kan than, than her husband, king. And she's often depicted with, um, these traditional Egyptian motifs, denoting power and conquest and control. So one of the favorite ones is, um, sort of sing smiting enemies as like a very famous motif of the Egyptians to show kind of dominance and power. And you see Kanke, um, uh, who are, uh, presented in this way. They're actually presenting themselves as both feminine and powerful. Yeah. Um, in that African context. And there's no contradiction between the, between the two. Amanirenas, you know, she's well known for basically having. Similar to Injinga having installed the Roman advance and prevented the Roman, um, incursion into Nubia. She battles against, the Romans for fears. And actually at a point, it's almost like war of attrition and they basically feel that it's not, pursuing this any further. So they actually sue for peace and Amanirenas organizes for ambassadors to. negotiate directly, with, Octavian, they're now known as Augustus. Augustus on the island of Samos where he's on holiday and she actually doesn't end up going herself. She just says, I'll leave it up to my ambassadors. Um, and the Romans agree, for example, when conquered Northern Kush state and post taxes, for example, and they agreed to push back, and then they're given only a sliver, of that Northern territory, which has agreed to act as a buffer zone between them and the Nubians. But then they agreed to remove the taxes. And they also, agreed to recognize Nubian sovereignty. Um, and, the Greek historian Shaer basically concludes that Nubians from, the Romans, they had just so successfully, uh, stor stored their advance and made it difficult to. Go further into Africa as wells. Fascinating, my gosh. And then the third, the third is one, um, about whom I, I have written in, in my book, but, you know, know a few details. Know a few de details about, because she's, um, you know, she's a can, she's a shanty, you know, I'm a shanty. Might as well as being a queer, I'm a shanty myself. And, um, her name is Ya and she's, um, she's a lot later. A lot. It is gonna have a spam. We have like the ancient rain, early modern, which is Inga. And then, um, sort of modern, which is, What is Shanti Ya? So Ashanti, that's a Exactly what, but Ashanti is just the name of the people who, okay. Um, yeah, it's the name of the pe it's the name of the people basically who, um, inhabit what's now, what's now Ghana.'Cause you know, ya San um, is, best known for fighting at the, at the turn of the century, the turn of the Best known for fighting against the, uh, British and what's golden stall, which is essentially when, um, the British are trying to conquer, the Ashanti Empire. Most of the male chiefs and kings had kind of resigned themselves to trying make peace of the British or reach some kind of agreement. And ya sanir, um, steadfastly refused in any way, shape or form to do so and actually led her people. And, she was elderly by this point, actually, you know, seventies But she led uh, the Ashanti against the British, um, in these conflicts. So it was kind of remembered as this, um, steadfast, warrior, Queen, refused to bow to, um, external pressure. Um, and actually sort of acted as the last line. And this is what I find quite fascinating. a lot of female figures who are history is that they're always remembered as, as sort of. Being the final defense in maintaining, integrity and sovereignty, sovereignty of their against or from external pressures, so in, I. In Jingga case, it's the Rain's case, it's the Romans. ya Sanwas case, uh, it's, it's the British, so that's something also that that Yeah. But those cases in Nigeria and in North Africa, and again, it all comes, I think it's interesting. I think the ones who, they find it quite interesting, the ones who always remembered actually are the Warrior Queens, especially in the African as well.'cause mm-hmm. I think women filled so many roles and so many important roles, even outside of warfare, when governance, law and order, um, justice, uh, customs and, and ceremonies. But the figures, the individual figures who are um, had this kind well, you know, they, they. Not, not necessarily there are martial elements in the sense that they were, um, war mongering at all, but they were the ones who, when push came to shove would, stand strong, in the face of external so I find that quite fascinating. And that seems to really be a female figures who were, who were sort of remembered. And it's kind of the opposite to, I would say, to the male figures.'cause a lot of the male figures who remembered for the most part, um, in African history, especially in, the ancient Medieval are usually the founders. So, like I mentioned, there's, we say Tutu, he's the founder of the Ashanti Empire. There's Sun, who's sort of, uh, who's this, uh, late 12th, early 13th century, but the female figures are remembered as the, the protectors, who, hold the line, kind of started and originated. the things at least, at least as far as concerned. That's so insightful. Thank you so much, Thank you ever so much and I think it's, it has kind of nicely come full circle because you started Luke by talking about how you wrote a lot of broad themes and then specific figures would kind of pop out who. Exemplified those themes, and that's exactly what you've ended on. You've talked about these themes of, of femininity or of masculinity and how, how these specific characters came out of those, those tales and, and are remembered through history for, for delivering those qualities. He, he knows what he is doing, doesn't he? To spoilers. Yeah. An embarrassment of riches. Thank you ever so much. Yeah.'cause I was, yeah.'cause you know, if we given more time, Michael would've love to go into more of n in Jingga story in particular. I'd spoke, um, sort of the broad strokes of ya wan You can always come back, you know, if you, okay. Maybe we'll come back hearing another visit, but Yeah. Give us a quick little synopsis of your, of your book. So my book, motherland, uh, a journey through 500,000 of African culture explores as the, as the subtitle mentions 500,000 of, African history. And it, you know, makes the point that there's so much African and we don't cover beyond especially years, but it's split into 10 thematic chapters, each of which covers, um, a different theme, uh, and a different aspect identity. So these include ancestral veneration, uh, multiculturalism, oral literature. And depending on the theme, I explore a So for trade and migration, Swahili coast and, um, the East Africans across the Indian Ocean and for literature, Mali, Niger in Senegal. And then I also look at, um, riddling and word in West Africa, and, you know, I move, I, I move around and just try and I give people a sense of the sophistication of the African past, which is exactly what you did today. Thank you so much. What's the best place to play your book? Um, I'd say online Onward Stones is great. We can link them in the show notes. Absolutely. Thank you so much joining us. Thank you so much both for having me. Hey, and we'll see you soon. Yes, thanks. Thank you. Thank you.

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