36. Betsi Cadwaladr: Wales' unsung heroine and Florence Nightingale's nemesis

The Untold Story of Betsy Cadwaladr: A Trailblazing Woman in History

Please note the sound quality takes a little hit throughout the guest speakers but the story is still incredible!

This episode dives deep into the life of Betsy Cadwaladr, an adventurous Welsh woman whose captivating life story was brought to the stage by the Her Story Theatre Company. Founders Adele Corder and Claire Drewitt discuss their theater company's mission to elevate women's narratives through original plays, focusing on their current production 'Daughter of Bala.' The episode explores Betsy's incredible journeys, her clash with Florence Nightingale, and her unapologetic pursuit of justice and compassion. It also touches on Her Story's research process and their next project about Mary Frost. Adele and Claire share insights on bringing history to life, the struggles and rewards of working in period costumes, and the importance of giving voice to women's stories that have long been overlooked.

00:00 Introduction and Greetings
01:01 Meet Our Guests: Adele Corder and Claire Drewitt
01:52 The Story of Betsy Kader
02:31 Founding Her Story Theater Company
05:50 Betsy Kader's Adventures and Achievements
09:25 Betsy Kader vs. Florence Nightingale
14:33 Betsy's Determination and Journey to Crimea
16:43 Betsy's Early Life and Global Travels
20:03 Betsy's Strong Moral Compass
21:25 Adventures and Travels
22:08 Journey to the Crimea
22:47 Challenges of Historical Costumes
24:50 Betsy's Cleanliness and Self-Respect
27:03 Exploring Other Historical Women
29:53 Theatrical Production Insights
31:35 Audience Engagement and Reactions
34:18 Betsy's Legacy and Recognition
36:14 Upcoming Performances and Final Thoughts

Transcript

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Okay. So do we wanna just get straight into it? Yeah, if you, yeah, if you would like to. Okay. So, um. I will start by saying, hi Vicki. How are you today? I'm good. How are you doing? Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. Although technical difficulties, if anybody looks today, looks at video, you're not brand today. Today. So sad. You've lost your I'm off brand. I'm off brand and, uh, we'll lose sponsorship from the Velvet Curtain Company, but oh my God, we're gonna have to push on. Um, there our only income. We are, I'm probably just making mistakes because I'm giddy because we have wonderful guests. Not, not one, but two, so if you would like, I can do a little intro to set the, set the scene. Yes, please give me, yeah. Sounds, yeah. Okay. So today we are very happy to be welcoming Adele Corder and Claire Drewitt, both of the her story theater company and many other things. Um, her story is a group founded in South Wales to explore the lives of women in history and today through engaging theater experience. And they do this by writing. And performing, original plays with a focus on entertainment and elevating the narratives of women. You'll, you'll notice that I'm pulling these words directly from your excellent website ladies. You are all about putting these women center stage, so that just aligns so much with what Vicki wanted to do with, she changed history and I've been very glad to come along and help with. Your, current touring production is Daughter of Bala. And,, to give it the prey that, again, I'm a shameless thief. I've pulled this from the Glen goer workman's hall prey, where they say it is the captivating life story of Betsy. Kader, so we're going from her humble beginnings in Wales to her globe trotting escapades in service. And before we hear all about Betsy, I was hoping that we could learn a little bit more about you, So, how are you guys involved? What is your part in, in the theater troupe and in the play? Well, I, I am a, a writer, um, so I'm a playwright. And I, I was previously a copywriter and then I decided to take a master's degree in, in script writing. So, um, yes, now I'm a playwright, which is fantastic. I love it. It's lovely to explore the creative avenues and I have particular interest in writing women's stories.. And so I have, Claire, who was my wonderful friend and two other lovely friends as well, Alison and Linda. And we all got together and decided we'd like to make theater company to form a theater company to tell the stories of women, which, I would write. So. So the first one that we came across was Betsy Kad Wall's Story. And, I'm also a performer and director, which,, I have been for. since I was really little as a performer anyway. And, and I've known Claire through community theater production together as with Linda and Allison. We just decided, let's go for it. Let's make, um, let's make a small touring theater company and let's tour it to tell women's stories, especially women, of a particular age. Because we as performers, we realized that there weren't many roles for women of our kind of age and, we want those roles. You know, we want these, these strong roles and these strong women and we want women to be the main protagonist. And that was one of my main ambitions in my writing, to make women the center of the story and particularly an older woman maybe at times. That was my, that was my ambition in writing the play to begin with. And then, and Claire was absolutely brilliant and that I wrote it with Claire in mind to play Betsy, and she is absolutely an absolute star playing Betsy. Oh, I was so lucky to, be friendly with aal. We've acted together and I've directed Adele, she's directed me. Um, for years now. I've been performing since I was probably. Kneehigh to a grasshopper, and it was just amazing to be able to work with Ade in setting up this theater company and bringing Betsy to the stage. And her story was absolutely fantastic. It's been, it's been really, really good fun and an amazing chance to play an incredible character from history. I loved it. This is fascinating Absolute. What Kaa said earlier about being giddy. I definitely like, already I am like, yes, this is fantastic. And we were talking last week, weren't we? Kaa about Nicole Kidman there's kind of this, not a dramatic word, but there's um, there's definitely more how did you, whatever phrase you used? Certain age? Yeah, an age. I didn't wanna, um, drag the Greg Wallace thing out, but Yeah. The, um, but no, that's, it's so thoughtful, it's just lots threads that we don't normally get to see and get to peek behind like that. And actually we've done whatever, how many episodes like 35, something like that. And we haven't yet gone to Wales. Very exciting. Wow. Yeah. Amazing. You're our first Well story. So, um, yeah. Yes. I'd love to learn a little bit more about Betsy, sharing. Yeah. Well, we, we were really amazed actually that her story hadn't been told before in terms of as a theatrical production or film or tv. Really amazed because I read it, it's her autobiography. She wrote it herself, but a ghost writer with a ghost writer, if you like. So she calls it an autobiography, but she had this amazing, friend who was a historian at the time called Jane Williams. And, she asked her to write it for her because she was a lady working class background, from North Wales in ball and,, from very, very humble beginnings. And she knew that if this lady historian wrote it for her, it would be more believable. And also Jane Williams in writing this, autobiography as she called it. Researched all of the facts that Betsy told her about her life, which are totally incredible. I mean, you'd read it and you'd think that can't possibly have happened. She can't possibly have been at the Battle of Waterloo. She can't possibly have met a bishop when she was traveling around the world. She can't possibly have gone to Australia, literally. Countries all over the world, south America, everywhere that you can think of. She went in her lifetime. And you keep pinching yourself as you turn each page and think, no, this can't possibly be true. But Jane Williams has actually cross-checked all of the facts and made sure that they were true. Um. And put little clips of evidence in the book as well, which is really interesting.'cause there are footnotes on every single page giving evidence that, um, you know, that these things most likely did happen because they were, at the time that Betsy was traveling and that the people she said she met, she even said she met the Emperor of China. Oh gosh. Accidentally by accidentally walking into a hall where he was sitting on the floor smoking a pipe, uh, because she was on an adventure there at the time and she was very adventurous and just went exploring off by herself. So she was an absolute. Incredible character when, and I just read her and couldn't stop, read the book, couldn't stop turning the pages. And then, um, said to Claire and Linda Allison, we have got to tell this story. So the Battle of Waterloo is like 1815, isn't it? So was she born 1700? Born in seventeen, eighty nine. 89? Yeah. Born in 1789. 1789 in Ballor, to a family with 16 children. Yeah. Wow. And she's mostly known in Wales today only as a name through one of the house boards is named after her. So there's the Betsy Cardwell, the House Board in North Wales, but. Nobody knows her story. We found really researching with our audiences and everything that they all pretty much to a man said afterwards, gosh, I knew nothing about her. All I knew was she's the name of the house board and it's been incredible to learn something about her. Just to list the things that she did. She was a heck of a gal and she was, you know, so feisty and stood up for whales and for herself and for women and for nurses, and was absolutely an incredible woman. And for her to have been living in that time as well, and to have done it all in long skirts and corsets is something else entirely, you know. You've touched on two things one of the points that was made was that she wasn't afraid to speak her mind to, to say how say it like it was. And that led to a particular confrontation that was noted with a famous, a famous figure, which was interesting for. Us because we have covered another character in the past who also had a run in with this figure. So Betsy and Florence Nightingale, got into it,, from what I could see could you say more about that? Was that an example of her being out there and just being put into close quarters with someone who didn't see things the way she did? Yes, I think it, it was absolutely, I think she, they clashed, I think from the beginning, partly because of their backgrounds. You know, Florence Nightingale was an English lady, and, um, Betsy was a Welsh working class woman. And, so they clashed on that front. Betsy was very, determined to break the rules when it came to, the Crimean War, and that's one of the reasons why she wanted to publish her book. She wanted to tell the story of the Crimean War from her point of view, and she really wanted to speak truth to power. And she actually was really critical in her book of the government and of their handling of, um, the situation in the Crimean war because, they sent, they had lots and lots of free gifts that, the public had donated. For the soldiers, things like, food, food stuffs and, clothing items. Clothing. Yep. sheets, blankets. Yep. You know, very similar to people today, sending stuff out to water onn countries, you know, to help. Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. But these, these supplies were not allowed to be released to the men without signatures from, a doctor and then military men as well, so. The doctors were just all too busy. There was hardly any doctors there. And they were see, looking after like hundreds and hundreds of patients and soldiers who were very badly wounded, so they didn't have time to be signing requisitions and getting them countersigned. But Florence Nighting girl was very much, um, she was trying to control the situation by the book, and she, she had been sent there to be in charge of the nurses and to be in charge of all the supplies. So she was trying to keep everything under control, whereas Betsy was saying. Just let us go into the store rooms and grab these things that we need and, you know, nevermind the signatures. And Florence was very much following the rules and was like, no, no, we can't, we can't possibly do that. It's, it has to all be done properly. And, um, that's where they clashed. That was one of the things that they, they clashed over. The other way that they majorly clashed as well was that battlefield and nurse the soldiers in the Crimea. Whereas Florence Nightingale was mostly based in Scutari in Turkey, which was about 300 miles from where the men were actually being injured. And Betsy had a kind of, complained that the nurses weren't allowed to go on the wards and help the men in the hospitals Atari. And she felt like she was being useless. And so she, campaigned and fought with Florence Nightingale to be sent out to Balaclava, actually to the Crimea so she could nurse the soldiers there. And I think when she did get there as well, she just took over and, got things going for the men. Got them, you know, turned her horror at what she saw there into action and got, you know, beds for the men. Got them organized, started a kitchen, started cooking, on braziers for all the men, and making sure that they had a good diet. And then making friends with Lord Raglan, who was very supportive of her efforts in helping the men up the front. She was very actiony. Very, yeah. Just wanna get stick in and do it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. She was, she was incredibly frustrated when she first got set, got to the crime that she didn't actually get there. They kept her on a first, they sent her to, um, uh, they sent to her house. Yeah, it was Therapi, wasn't it? It was the house, um, belonging to the local ambassador. And they sent them there for a week or two. They kind of kept, kept them away from the, for, even from the Scutari base, um, for weeks on end. And she couldn't understand why. She just wanted to get straight to the men and, and get to work and help and nurse them. And, um, she discovered later that it was because Florence Nightingale didn't actually, um. Want anymore nurses, she went out with a group of 40 and she didn't expect anymore. She didn't have facilities for anymore. She felt she didn't have a budget for anymore. She didn't have anywhere to, to, um, oh my God. Sort to sleep. And, you know, so she was, she was in a, she was really angry apparently when she realized that this extra party of nurses had been sent and she didn't know how she was gonna cope. With that because she, she was barely coping. I think with having 40, it was too much,, because of the situation there and the conditions which were horrendous. And, yeah, she was horrified at having to cope with more nurses. Mm-hmm. And, uh, yeah, so Betsy didn't discover that until. She actually arrived later after petitioning and petitioning. The lady who was kind of looking after them all and saying, we want to go, we want to go. And she was getting very, very frustrated and angry, her age in order to get there as well, I think. Incredible. She said that she was 55 in order to be sent out there, but she was actually 65 when she traveled out. Wow. Which is, yeah, really something. Absolutely. And she worked herself to the bone. She slept in the kitchen, um, so that she could be on hand if anybody needed her in the night, And just exhausted herself in order to serve her fellow countrymen. She was, she was from the minute she read it in the newspaper, she was living in London at the time and she was, uh, working as a housekeeper. And she had recently trained as a nurse at Geis Hospital in London. And, she'd had a whole lifetime of travel, which we can tell you about as well, because she spent literally, up until that point, shed traveled the world on a ship and worked, as a housekeeper, as, as a nanny. She'd done so many different jobs and, she was working in London and read about, um, the Crimean War in the newspaper and was really horrified at what state, the soldiers were reported to be in. And this was of course, the first time that, that battlefield reporting happened. You know, that we actually had reporters who could tell the story of what was happening there. And, everybody was horrified, apparently in the country when they read about this and the poor soldiers being treated so badly. But Betsy was like straight away. Her first thought was, I'm going, I'm, I've got to find out what's happening. I'm going, I'm, I'm getting on a ship and I'm going. And she just did absolutely everything to get there. She literally went to see anyone. She could think of any friends and, contacts that she could think of that would help her to get there. She would, she would walk to across London to find them and, persuade them to, to let her see the lady who was organizing the nurses. And, and I just can't believe she actually did that and actually got there outta just 14 nurses. Yeah. And a lot of them were nuns as well, so it was a very, very small number that she managed to persuade them that she was. A good nurse and that she would serve well, and also that she was 10 years younger than she really was. Love it. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm, I'm hearing tenacity, I'm hearing courage and I'm hearing excellent skincare routine because Yeah, she's pulling off saying she's 10 years younger. That is not nothing, let me tell you. Yeah. So the, the, the courage to throw herself out there and get into it. You've just mentioned that she traveled before. Uh, the Crimea, which I hadn't realized. So she was already out exploring the world as a woman at that point in history. That's crazy. Can you say more about that? So she ran away from home when she was about nine and went to, um, live with, um, some people who were still living in Balla, but in a, in a big hand, a reverend. And his wife, and she was a companion to the wife who taught her to read and write, to speak English, to play the heart to, you know, but She wanted to stay independent. She wanted to do something for herself. So she ran away from that house and got a passage on a ship to Liverpool, and went into service there. She had various jobs in Liverpool, then she, came across, she was working for a pretty nasty woman by the sound of it. And told her story to a passerby who turned out to be an Indian princess who was married to a noble man called Sir George. And. She went to work in their household and she traveled with them on the grand tour around Europe, which is where she went to, the aftermath of the Battle of Waterloo. And she met the young Napoleon. She was in Paris when King Louis the 18th was restored. She climbed Theus. She went to Spain. She had an in incredible journey there and that gave her a real taste for travel. And she then got a job on board ship. I see why you were like, we need to fact check this autography. Absolutely. Yeah. It's so random. Yeah. So she, she traveled all over the world. She spent quite a long time in Australia. She had lots of proposals of marriage from people all over the world, but she never wanted to lose her independence. She always decided that she would stay single. So, um, there were apparently a lot of proposals in Australia where there were 30 men to every woman there. She did, she did well to turn those. Then some, one guy kidnapped her and, uh, tried to marry her by force, but she ran away. Again, that's not a proposal. Yeah, that's not okay. That's not how we do things. That she stood up to him. She was in India for quite a time. She had, there's a lovely story that we tell in the play where she was sent with three Burmese ladies wanted to go from the ship back to their home in a village. And Betsy was asked to accompany them'cause nobody else would go. So she said, well, I will. And it turned out that they were sent on elephants. Somebody just whispered in the ear of the elephant. They set off through the jungle for a full day and evening, then stopped at a random posting house where they spent the night, got back on the elephants. The next day, whispered in their ear off they went again to the, the place where the Burmese ladies were going to. And then Betsy was sent back on the elephant by herself all the way to the ship. It makes Uber look pretty weak, doesn't it? Yeah, I, exactly. She would look for a Welsh chapel as well, or a Welsh speaking community, and invariably find one as well, which was really incredible, because she was, Welsh speaking, obviously from birth. And her father was also a very famous Welsh preacher. So, religion was very important to her. The Bible was very important to her, and she actually had the first copy of the Welsh Bible. The same one that Mary Jones had. You might have heard the story of Mary Jones, who had the first Welsh Bible, that was published. And the man who published this Bible was actually a family friend of Betsy's, so she got the same one as well. So, so she carried this Bible with her all her life. And, she lived her life by the Bible in a very, very honest, you know, really, really honest, fiercely honest. And, she really hated to see anything that was dishonest. And, if any of her, any of the people that she worked for were ever, ever treated her badly, she wouldn't te accept it. She would actually stand up for herself and confront, you know, the problem. And if she was ever accused of anything that she was innocent of, she would. Absolutely deny it and stand up and say, no, I did not do that, and I can prove it. And this is what happened. And she gives quite a few incidences in the book and in one case, I think she walked away from one of her bosses when she got accused of something and she was like, Nope, I've had enough. I'm going. And you just went to the left. That's good. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Because many servants, I think at that time were probably very badly treated. You know, especially the, the working class women's servants were probably at the bottom of the pile, I should imagine. But she wasn't having any of that, you know, she was always very, she had a lot of self-respect, I think. But her travels, the, the animal, she describes me, you know, seeing a serpent. Yeah. It's a huge serpent that gets chased by horses and men on horses to get killed coming through, through a village. And she describes seeing a panther on a remote beach. And, oh gosh, oh camel, she went on a camel ride as well. She, she, she went, got sent off on a camel and again, just got on the camel and had. The camel's back was slapped and it just kept going. And she had to ask somebody, how do I stop after she'd been going half a day and they just turned the camel around and slapped it and sent it back. Oh my God. So yeah, she said that she, but she was so brave and so utterly fearless, in all her adventures. It was quite incredible. So I think that led into then going to the Crimea. By the time she'd had all those adventures and then decided to come back to London and work I think she thought she wouldn't travel again at that point, that she'd had enough. But then when she saw, the problems in the Crimea, she was desperate to, to go and get back on the ship and, go and find out about it. And she didn't have any fear because she'd already survived several storms on board these huge wooden ships. I just can't believe she survived half of the storm. She describes'cause they are horrendous and the ships have had to put into port for months and months to get repaired and, she's not phased. She just gets back on when it's repaired and ready to go off she goes again. Yeah. And was she doing all this stuff in like the like costume, like the wear. she doing that in That's amazing. Yep, She was literally wearing her dress door all through the, and when you are on stage. You are wearing these elaborate costumes as well, and you look wonderful. Did it however, give you a sense of, good God, how did anyone get anything done? Because it looks like an awful lot going on, you know, layers and corsets and bustles, and who knows what. Yeah, it, it is a lot, you know, and it, and it does make you think, good grief, you know, I'm struggling here, I'm boiling hot'cause I'm running around for an hour on stage. But this was, this was her life and she was in, you know. Turkey and India and Australia, not in temperate places at all, I, I honestly don't know how women did it back in the day. And I think that that feeds into the whole idea of telling their stories because they were doing it with an incredible, mountain to climb before they even started doing anything because the whole, you know. Hygiene and costume and everything was so difficult for them to overcome that anybody doing, any woman doing anything in those days, I think is really worthy of praise. It's quite incredible. Especially when you add like Yeah. And also time in the morning. I need somebody to help me get dressed. Yes, Claire does. Claire has to be, yeah. Tied into the corset every, for every performance, and then obviously loosened out a bit because Yeah. Claire can't get in and outta her costume by herself. It's possible because we have to tie the back and, it is quite a. You know, quite a lot of layers and a lot of complications. And have pet coats and boots, you know, which they would've worn. And bonnets you know, her head was always covered. And even if it was a light cap, she would've always had her head. Covered,, it was a lot to bear, but she never complained about that. She was quite proud, I think, of being, very clean and tidy. She talks a lot about, clothes when she goes to the premier, because they only gave them one uniform to begin with. She was like, oh. I can't manage with that. You know, I, I, I need more. So she would take, she took all her own for spares, but she said, that some of the nurses wouldn't have had spare dresses to take. They were told that they couldn't keep their, um. On board the ship. They had to travel in the hold, so they had no access the whole time to their spare clothes. They just have what they were standing up in. Oh dear. Yeah. All the way there. And that was for journey of weeks and weeks. Yeah. Yeah. But it was very smelly. Yeah. Absolutely. Must have been. Can you imagine? Yeah. But she, she was very annoyed about that because she liked to be clean, especially, you know, when she was nursing. Nursing, well, in all of her jobs, actually, nursing. Oh my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and even as, as a housekeeper, she was very particular about being clean and tidy and presentable. You know, that was, Something she was very, very conscious of. And, uh, yeah. So that really frustrated her when they gave her very minimal amount of clothing and uniform. yeah. she did make a point of that. It's very interesting to hear the things you're saying about her being particular, about being honest and scrupulous, And I think, in common with a lot of the women we talk about, she has come from such a humble background and she has decided a standard for herself. She said, this is, this is what I'm going to work to, that hasn't been imposed from the outside. And I wonder if that gives a kind of flexibility that maybe your Florence Nightingales might not. Have because they've come through a system where everything is orderly and everything works, and so you just follow the rules and then everything's fine, but. I find it so interesting that she is a self-made woman in, in a very literal sense. She left her family home at nine and got out there into the world. I can absolutely see why you read this book and thought this is a story that needs to be told. Are there other women on your radar right now who you're starting to kind of think that you might like to do something about in the future? Yes, we we're, we're currently, um, hoping to do a production. Now we've started our research and thinking about to play about Mary Frost. Now she is, the wife of John Frost, who you may have heard of we've read a wonderful book by Sylvia Mason, who has told her story really. So we've been speaking to Sylvia about that and asking her if she would, you know, if she thinks it might, would make a good play. And she's very excited as well about making that into a play. So she's, on our radar now at the moment, and we're hoping to, um, turn this into a production in the near future. So that will hopefully be our next production. So, um, yes, Mary's story was, is very much untold because obviously John Frost has, has. Strong fo story has been told many, many times that Mary was the, the silent woman behind him for the whole of the chartist, um, movement's time. So, um, yeah, we thought it would be really interesting to explore a story from, from that angle. Quite a different woman to Betsy, I think. But, um, yeah, very interesting in a different way in that she's, she's playing a role, um, in the background the whole time, but, um. Because that was how ladies had to be at that time. You know, most ladies, even for when we talked about Florence Nightingale as a lady, she had a an absolute battle to, to get accepted. I. As a nurse and to, you know, to, but from her family, she, she had to really rebel against her family to get to where she did. It was just not the done thing for a lady, you know, to Oh, to go in hospitals and to work. Um, yeah, and to be at that close, close proximity to men, especially to work with men. So in her own way, she also had a, a, a class battle. Florence Nightingales comes up a lot and Ever take away Like she had her own Oh yeah. Light and her own like say battles I think she's especially in English I swear we did like six weeks on her own primary school. Yeah. Like she's such a prominent figure. So anything that goes against that you realize how complex how. many layers there, there and then trying to tell those in a is very, um, it's, I wouldn't say it's hard. I enjoy it, but I wonder like, how is you read, about Betsy that, do you have a set system or is it quite organic? I think, yeah, I think it was quite organic really. We, I started out writing a one woman play, and it, that was sort of how it first of all came to me as a woman, woman play, because I just saw Betsy as such a driving force. I thought she's, she's just going to literally speak the narrative and tell the story almost as she does in her own book. But then, um. When we presented it like that, I, we, we had a read through of first reading of the, first of the very first draft. And Claire, you, you, you can say what, how, how you felt about yes. We, I think it's safe to say that we heard me read it and thought we need more people in this. No, when, when we read the story, we realized that there, there were so many things that. Had happened so many events, so many other people involved that we decided to do it as a two person play. To have Jane Williams who wrote the autobiography bookend the play at either end, um, and to have Betsy then telling the story with a series of flashbacks, which. Jane Williams would then become other people in that story. Mm-hmm. So in our production, played Jane Williams and played 14 other people who Betsy meets throughout her life, male and female. And that, um. Brought a real sense of liveliness to the production, I think, and a lot of humor as well. You know, it's nice to see a Adell with a mustache on a stick, you know, that kind of thing. And it, and it gave the audience permission to find these things funny and to engage with it a lot more. And, and that was really important to us, was to be able to speak to the audience and be able to really bring them in. And feel their emotions through it as well. And we've had lovely experiences with audiences, you know, laughing throughout and crying as well at the sad bits and, and really engaging with us. It's been lovely to experience and lovely as well, to feel that you are bringing a woman's story to people, to women and men who have had no idea about it before and who can really appreciate it. Yes, and we're hoping to do that with all the plays that we produce, you know, with Mary Frost as well, who had a real quiet strength, but who was, um, a, a kind of in the eye of the storm of the charter movement and keeping her family going and keeping everything going with a real quiet strength, as I say. And again, that's something which I think can really engage audiences in which you can feel a sympathy with. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think the, the audience engagement was really important. Yeah. For me as well when I was writing it. And, and for Claire as well as a performer, and Claire actually does go down to the audience. We, we've performed in, in sort of small studio type. Venues where we have been able to get quite good eye contact with the audience and to go up to them. And Claire involves them in, in a dance and, um, in the storm scene. And, you know, she really brings the audience in and it's, you know, the reaction that we've had has been amazing. People have really enjoyed. That connection and I think it's really helped them to understand the story and to understand Betsy's character. And people, quite often people have said to us at the end that, um, Claire really is Betsy. They've said, oh my gosh, it is like she is actually here, you know, in the room. It's so, uh, yeah, we did a lovely performance for a school as well, a primary school, which was lovely. They were only six, six and, uh, and seven, bless them. And they, really, really believed that Claire was Betsy. And, they asked her lots of questions afterwards about how do you like to traveling? Gosh, the country she liked best. It was absolutely adorable. And they, they were really, really engaged in the whole story and, uh, wanted to know more. And they loved all the history and all the facts. They were so interested, weren't they, Claire? They were. Oh, it was, it was really lovely. We've done performances to, um, smaller sort of community groups, and we've also been lucky enough that we've engaged a lot of nurses as well. Mm-hmm. And you well very often find that people will say afterwards, oh, I was a nurse. And I never really knew much about Betsy, but gosh, it was so right. Yeah. She was ahead of her time in thinking about hygiene and food and everything. It was, it was wonderful to hear how she stood up for nurses and, and for nursing and for the training of nurses as well. We were very lucky to have support from Donna Mead, who, has done extensive research on Betsy, she was amazing. She gave us lots of information, background information. She had actually found Betsy's grave in London because Betsy, was actually buried as a pauper. Very sadly. Although she published this autobiography, it was literally ignored. It was completely ignored. It was just written off as the, as the lies ramblings of a crazy Welsh woman and, um, completely ignored and buried because of course she was speaking truth to power. She was criticizing the government. She was Welsh. And at that time, the government was trying very hard. Hard to suppress Welsh nationalism and the Welsh language. And they were installing English priests in Welsh churches. They were trying to suppress the language and put the English language in all education and stop Welsh language teaching. And the last thing they wanted was a revolutionary Welsh woman publishing of this, um, autobiography about her time in the Crimea. And, so it was literally pushed aside, written off, buried in history for literally. Years and years and years. And, and then eventually, Donna Mead, who, works for the RCN um, she decided to do a lot of research on Betsy and she went and found the grave in London and had a, had a lovely service for her and put up a lovely stone with her name on. And,, the nurses went and had a service and, commemorated her life. And that's how then they campaigned for her to be, for her name to be on the health board in North Wales. So it's now named after her. But that was apparently quite a battle as well because people didn't know enough about her or her work. So sounds really collaborative. Like you were all, all lifting her up Yeah. Bringing really, maybe a bit emotional. This is really lovely. Yeah. That is gorgeous. Yeah. And, you know, however long it took and that she didn't see it in her lifetime Um, I spotted that you have got a partnership, I think is the right word, with nights out. Where, where would people be able to,, book you to come and do a production or where would people be able to come and see a production of Daughter of Bala? Yeah. the Night Out scheme is actually run by the Arts Council of Wales. It's a scheme that allows, um, volunteers or community groups to actually book, production, without having to worry too much about the, the whole cost covering the whole cost of it. So, um, the idea is that the, it takes theater to communities all over Wales. Small venues and they don't have to worry about covering the costs with their ticket sales because the Arts Council will subsidize the production. So, um, it's available to all organizations, all volunteers, maybe Village Halls, Ws, anywhere really that has a venue that we can perform in. And we don't need a huge space. We're quite happy with a small space and our set is completely portable. Yeah, that's, this, it's a really great scheme actually run by the arts council and we're really delighted that they accepted our production onto it. And, um, yeah, people can book, um, book well via the arts council, but we have a link on our website as well. Yes, that's, um, really drive about Yeah. Arts and stuff. Yes. They're very good at that kind of thing. Yeah. I think we're a very creative nation. We've, we've also got another couple of performances coming up, which is very exciting in August. And, we're part of a theater festival that's gonna take place on the ninth and 10th of August in Newport at, the Phyllis Mord, which is a tiny little theater space,, which has been adapted from a gentleman's toilet to a historic building. It very, very tiny would feel about this. I. So yes, we're, we're going to be part of that festival and, uh, have, you'll have to look on our website for more details about that. But, uh, yeah, excited about doing that as well. We'll link it in the, um, show notes so we're quite happy to, we're very flexible and we just love it. It's'cause we love it. We love what we do. We are really. Privilege to do it And we just love telling this story. It's been so much fun and um, and Claire is utterly brilliant as Betsy as well, and it is utterly brilliant. Everybody else. Aw. I love them talking to other people things.'cause it is quite a niche thing, isn't it? These women from history that you dunno about. Um, been our toe, learn different love it. for spending I'm sorry Art. as good as those six I'm, sorry about that. No, you've got nothing to bring to the table. Nothing. This has been wonderful. Thank you very, very much. Both of you. As Vicki said, it's just, uh, a joy to meet other people who are excited about this and, and, want to tell these stories. So I am super, super looking forward to seeing the play. Um, whether that is in a gents toilets or not, wherever it may be, I'll be there. Um, so thank you so much for, for being being our guest today and you're more than welcome. Oh, thank you. Really do appreciate it. Thank you for inviting us.

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