39. Empress Wu: Games of Thrones & China's only female Emperor

Games of Thrones, China's only female Emperor 

In this episode of 'She Changed History,' Cara and Vicky go behind the curtain and delve into the remarkable life and legacy of Empress Wu, the only female emperor in Chinese history. They explore her determined rise to power during the Tang Dynasty, navigating a complex patriarchal society, and the controversial and often dark rumours surrounding her ascent. The discussion highlights her significant reforms, including the promotion of meritocracy, economic improvements, and the advancement of women's rights, and her influence on the spread of Buddhism in China. Despite the attempts to erase her achievements, Wu's impact on Chinese history remains profound and enduring.

00:00 Crafting Halloween Decorations
00:40 Introducing the Story of Wu Zetian
02:46 Setting the Scene: Tang Dynasty
07:21 Wu Zetian's Early Life and Rise
12:24 Intrigues and Power Struggles
16:21 Wu Zetian's Ruthless Ascendancy
20:05 Empress Dowager to Emperor
21:12 Imperial Imagery and Self-Representation
22:56 Meritocracy and Government Reforms
24:52 Strengthening Borders and Diplomacy
26:23 Economic Reforms and Tax Policies
27:32 Promotion of Buddhism and Cultural Influence
30:57 Advancement of Women's Rights
33:31 Legacy and Historical Perception
36:43 Conclusion and Reflections

Transcript

0:08

and they're in the garden like drying because it's air, air clay. So in the garden at the minute, there's just these little ghosts, like some babies ghost ski summer holidays too. They'll be all ready for Halloween. That's the idea. That's adorable idea. And then we've got some pretty napkins. Am I gonna. Cut out the flowers on the napkins and then like deck apart it. So there'll be flowery ghosts with little tea lights. That sounds adorable. I'm gonna need to see pictures. They, yeah, they dry. They're time. Yeah. Let us begin the completely begin previously unheard story of right. Hi Vicki. How are you doing today? Hi Kara. I am good. I'm fresh faced. I'm ready to rerecord this story. Let's go. You know, try my best. Well, in, in essence, recording it for the first time, aren't we? So, um, that's true actually. Technically, technically, we've, we've had a little sneaky preview, but we haven't actually achieved a recording yet. So this, this is a first um, cool. For everybody else. Just not for us. So I will begin it if you are ready. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's good. It's an uncommon commoner that can rise from relative obscurity to the pinnacle of power, and an even rarer woman who can do it in a society that would prefer that she stayed obedient and invisible. Today we're talking about W Zien, the only female emperor in China's history, ruthless and brilliant. She was a ruler whose story is both about ambition. And about the version of your story that people choose to tell after you are gone. So, sources for today are Asian studies online on an article in the newspaper India today. The BBC history extra website, world history.org. A YouTube channel called World History Documentaries and a book called The Golden Road by William Del Rimple. Um, that's where I first heard of her because he talked about her at his talk, so Oh, nice. We will. Yeah, it he was you. I, I love him so much. Yeah, I know. It's slightly creepy. How much? And, um, and Anita Anon just fabulous. Amazing, fabulous. Uh, they're my, my, uh, idols in this, in this sphere. But, uh, on to our lady. So we'll set the scene. We are in the Tang Dynasty, which is, in many senses, it's a golden age for China. It's the Seventh century CE China is a global force in trade, in arts. The capital Chang sees merchants and diplomats from all over the world coming to bring goods and to bring their own cultures and ideas to China. And maybe as a result of this, the. The Tang Court is more cosmopolitan than many other cultures of the day. So women, for example, are able to participate in local government in lower roles. They are able to ride horses in public, which doesn't sound like a big deal, but. Oh my God. Isn't a given. Right? There, there's a sculpture that I've got a picture of there where there's a woman playing polo. They are engaged in sports there, the lioness of their day. It's nice, it's a patriarchy, but it's not a patriarchy that utterly subjugates women. I guess compared to other patriarchies that we've spoken about, this sounds slightly. Slightly. Yeah. More relaxed. Yeah. And it's of its day. There are cultures on earth today that aren't so open. Yeah. To, that's fair. Equality. So, you know, considering we're in the seventh century, that is something, however, that openness has its limits. So in the Chinese political system. There is a really clear dividing line. There is somebody called the Huang who, and that is the empress consort that is the wife of the emperor. There is then the Huang D that is the emperor, the ruler, and that is a man. There is no, there is no concept of emper. It, it is just an emperor, the man emperor. So, yep. The role of emperor is the male role. Mm-hmm. End of it. That's it. Yeah. So when wanted to rule, she didn't just want to be the wife of the emperor or the mother of the emperor. She wanted to be the Huang D. She wanted to be the male. Ah, I'm the, that's very exciting. I'm not bossy. I'm the boss, right? So, yes. Her obstacle at the time was that although the tank court had had some foreign influence, the prevailing religion, the state philosophy, if you like, not really, religion, I guess is Confucianism and in Confucianism. There are very clear and defined gender roles. So there's a quote here to give you a kind of sense of the structure she'd be up against. Quote, women are to be led and to follow others. A woman ruler would be as unnatural as having a headrow like a rooster at daybreak, Ugh. F off. It's, I know, right? I, there is a thing that hen and rooster imagery I'm sure is in the Christian Bible as well. And I will never forget, I was out mowing my lawn one day, like in real life, actual mowing my actual lawn and this actual woman as I was, I was mowing my lawn. I was whistling, harming nobody. This lady came over and she went something like a whistling woman. A crowing hen is fit for neither God nor man. And I was like, excuse me, it's not your business. It's got nothing to do with you, me, just walk your ass away a little weirdo. But that, that, oh, unsolicited that nature tells us, you know, nature does a lot of things. Birds eat their babies. We don't need to be taking Epi cube anyway. So yes, unsolicited, Confucius unfortunately had quite a lot of sway, so that's what we're, that's what we're dealing with. Fine. However, Buddhism had traveled across from India and was starting to, make some incursions, particularly because the emperor of the day when Wu was born. Had had some, Buddhist monks and scholars join his court as advisors. They were helping him with some medical issues. They were helping him because he liked them with some, ideas, and he took a real interest and real shine to Buddhism and started to practice it within his court. So there's a little bit of openness here. Mm. But, um, I'm getting ahead of myself. We'll circle back. We'll talk a bit about w Zien. Uh, she herself was born in six twenty four ce and she was born into a relatively prosperous family, her. Childhood was a little bit unusual in that she was taught to read and write as well as the more sort of traditionally feminine skills of playing music or you know, being artistic. So that level of education was a little bit unusual and it gave her a leg up and beyond that she's said to also have had confidence. Beauty and great instincts. I'm reading this book at a minute. A called of Thorn and Roses, which is like very popular in the fantasy world. And this woman who reminds me so much of the main character in that and. But I don't think it's based on Chinese histories. I think it's based on British histories. Like that's where the inspiration comes from and it's like an American author. And it's so similar in terms of that she also becomes. Hi lady like, so she fights for this role of Empress, which is what you just said earlier. So I think it's very similar, which is very exciting. These stories obviously are just in the air, that this is something that has happened through history and to the point where it's being brought in as a fable to sort of show how things actually were. Yeah, that's so interesting. Despite circles, despite lands, despite timeframes. Yeah. Wild, wild, wild, wild. So that's what we're, that's what we're talking about. And I think you've said before, the protagonist in your book is quite young. She also has that in common because, oh god. Woo leaves her home. It is, it's the time. I guess WW leaves her home at 14, to join the Royal Court. And the Emperor is T song and he takes her on as one of his consorts, which, uh, consort, concubine, it's a word that has certain associations for us, right. In the Tang. Society in the Tang Dynasty, it wasn't a role that was only about procreation or sex. It was, um, a role that had status. Uh, it, it also was about those things. But in addition to those, uh, services, uh, the women who were cortisols concubines were also. Expected to participate in court life. They would be anything from, you know, cleaning or maintaining, the flowers to, playing musical instruments, to writing poetry. Engaging in gentle diplomacy by which I am imagining them to be along the lines of a sort of geisha who is pleasing to look at and hospitable. What a fascinating role that is. Like yeah. That you're not just a lady in waiting. You are a lady in waiting pro. Like plus, yeah. And you have, you have more to offer and I suppose in a really gross, patriarchal way, it's also a big flex for the emperor to go look at all these beautiful ladies who are falling over themselves to bear my children and to, to help around, you know, how lucky I am to have all these women like. Unlike cultures where that is maybe kept behind a wall, like you can't look at my women. This is like, Hey, check it out. Look at this. Yeah, Yeah. So in this case, and in many cases, the role of Essan was an honor, to achieve that role. I can see that. And in Faru it was because her dad was a super loyal servant of the emperor, and he was a Duke. He was like, he had status. Okay, okay. So this was a gift to him as much as a reflection of her abilities, but. Her abilities did play into it because she, once she was in the court was able to take an administrative role because she could read and and write. Mm-hmm. And they went of course. Oh, this is great. You know, and so there she paperwork, right? Like, but for her that's, here's complete training in statehood. Like here's everything that we do to run. Yeah. Fair. The machine of the state. Like, and Ana, who kind of through that education. Was able to just reach out and get a little bit more for herself and start, you know, carving out a bit of a role. It's one thing having the knowledge and one thing using the knowledge, isn't it? Yeah. Because it sounds like there's lots of women in this like light diplomacy role, but actually it feels like we was the one to apply, apply that know. Yeah. And I think nobody ever dreamed that any woman ever would or could. But yeah. This, this is where it gets a little sticky because there's a whole raft of stuff we're about to talk about, about how she transferred the getting of the knowledge into the using of the knowledge. And so. Very sadly for her, he, the emperor, uh, Ong died. And then she being a, a concubine who has never born him a child Would traditionally have been hived off at this point, sent away to religious service, head shaved. You are like an UN woman at this point. No man can ever look at you in, in a sexual way again. It was to. To make sure that any woman that had been the emperors consort could never be touched or seen by a man in that way again. I see. It was like a summary, like a, it wasn't a reward, it was like a Oh. Almost like in toing them with the dead dude. It was like, your life is now over. You'll meet him in heaven. Your life is over. Now. Off, off you go. Your, your life is over. She's at this time, 15, maybe 16 years old. What? Wild. Oh my God. So unsurprisingly, she had other ideas. They, uh, sent her off. This is where the rumor mill begins. Okay. So she's now in the Buddhist monastery of T Zg, the the dead emperor. And his son Ga Zg has succeeded him. He's Ga Z is the new emperor, depending on who you listen to. Mm-hmm. They either connected through grieving over their beloved ties on or. Ong and Wu already had a relationship. The time, little sexy time, a little sexy time by the time dad died. So one way or the other, when Tza dies, GA Zg ascends and Ga z has a wife crate. Um, a sentences ascends sentence. A sentence. Um. He, his wife is called Empress Wang. And Empress. So he's married in as well. He's married too. He's married as well. Oh. It's a whole statehood. They like don't have a choice. Right. It's just this is happening much like some of the royal families you've talked about in in St. Petersburg and so on and so on. They're married off from the time they're about four. Yeah. Right. That's just happening. So he's married to Empress Wang. This all is gonna get a little bit like made in Chelsea. Now Empress Wang is jealous of one of Gao Z's concubines. This woman is, that makes sense to, to me, an exceptional beauty. Her, her name means something like radiant pearl of the beauty of the sky. It's absurd. She's obviously like beyond stuff. La la Ula. Wang wife Wang is jealous. So wife Wang sees Woo over in the monastery wife Wang. Wife Wang sees Woo in the monastery, shaved head and thinks, look at this poor wretched thing. He seems a bit fond of her. I'm gonna bring her back and it'll. Dis it'll break up this interest he has in this, in exceptionally beautiful con con. Oh, so she's like the, she's like the distraction. Let's make this happen. We'll get her in as a distraction. Exactly. Unfortunately for Empress Wang, it all unravel. Yeah, it guess from bad to worse, Wu gets brought back and Ong is so enchanted by her. That she, yeah.'cause she's 15. She's, yeah. And, and she has an intelligence, uh, you know, that's fair. That's fair. I was judging him, not her. Yeah. It could be that he, you know, maybe it was a real soul connection, but what, for whatever reason, he, uh, leapfrogs her in status above all the other concubines who he had sort of legally taken on. Nobody likes this. Everybody's good that joint. W has several children with him, which okay, solidifies it, like just locks her status real even further. And then a really dark period, in her story. So this is a really controversial. Rumor and if you wanna read this quote, it kind of sums it up. Okay. Quote, according to official histories, written by those with a reason to BME Woo's name Wu herself smothered her newborn daughter and blamed Empress one. Who had been the last person to see and hold the child reportedly devastated. Gal Zg had his empress locked away soon, followed by the other favored consort who woo accused of being an accomplice. Oh my God. That is scandal. That is like, it is so dark. Wow. So wow. Yeah. Okay, so. This newborn has died, which is horrific, and, they're playing the blame game and it feels like Woo comes out on top. That is the, that is the rumor that w orchestrated it all. There's no nice version of this story because the poor child and then either. Emper Wang did do it, which frankly it was a girl. She would have no reason to do that, or w her herself did it. And in doing it, she disposed of the wife of the emperor and she disposed of the concubine who he had been. Yeah. All competition. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, Ooh, that's a bit dark. Let's just keep that in your head for the time being. Okay. Um. It gets, it gets even nastier if you'd like to hear. My gosh, really? Yeah. The really gross bit, which feel free to not include this'cause it is horrific. E. Not that that wasn't, it just keeps going bad to worse. It just keeps going. Wu, apparently the rumor is, was not satisfied with Empress Wang and her children being kicked out of the court, by the way. She wanted it to go even further. So as well as having them banished, she. Asked that they be killed by having their limbs removed and then being thrown into a vat of wine to drown. So, I'm sorry, utterly that brutal not true. It can't, God, keep it in your head. Put it like on a pinboard in your head because we will talk about these rumors at the end and, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that is just so outlandish. Also, these are her. Lover's children, right? This is like, why would they're his children? Why would commit this? Why would he permit They did nothing even if their mother was a murderer. Yes, they are blameless children, so they are also, however, threats to woo's own children. Taking this from I, yeah, I can kind of see that. But yeah, so it is expedient for her that they happen to be banished and even more expedient if they're dead. One to a hundred. Yeah. Yeah. So, alright. Whatever the truth, which we cannot know. W is now made wife of Emperor Ong and Ong really quickly becomes extremely dependent on her, especially after he suffered a stroke. So there is a quote here from my boy, William Fel. Oh, if you go for it, try and do him justice. Please do. Whenever the emperor attended to business, emperor SW then hung a curtain and listened behind it. There was nothing about government, great or small, which she did not hear. The whole power of the empire passed into her hands, reward and punishment, life and death. She decided, ah, woo. This is a rise, my friend. Yeah. She's, she knows what's going on and, um, Ong then dies and Wu, her official role is Emper Dowager. So she's like the queen mother. She is the mother of the traditional successor to the throne. One of her sons, but okay. Absolutely breaking with all tradition, absolute heresy. Wu bypasses her sons and says, no, they're not going to be emperor. I am. I am the emperor now. And that's exactly what Emperor's Matilda did, isn't it? Yes. They. For whatever reason, judged that their own offspring were not suitable. They knew what needed to happen for the best of the country or for the best of themselves, and they stepped up. There are so many parallels. Yeah. And also maybe it is that, and maybe it is like, I'm good enough. Why bypass me? Yeah. Like I'm, I'm going to do this. I know what you need. I'm capable to happen. I've been listening. I've been reading. I, I know what is needed. I've got a lovely, uh, painting here that shows her in full. Oh, I love it. Regalia. Oh, it's like Disney villain style. Um, she gives herself, yes. Is Disney villain like a new, it's the imperial title. Grace and just up a slight, you know, there is definitely an air of somebody who could, yes. Love this. Cut you love. I want this. That looks great. She calls herself, she invents a new Chinese character, symbol language. Okay. And this symbol that means her. Translates to celestial empress, like the sun and the moon illuminating the world., Celestial empress, my god, that's, that's beautiful. That's some big old boots that she's. Right? Like that's a lot. Feels a little Trumpy though, isn't it? Just a little bit, yeah. Yeah. There is that. There is that. And more parallels there too. More to come. She stepped out. She started to make changes in the state. She started to not just be a figurehead ruler. She affected her power and a lot of the changes she made. Outlived her. So I thought having heard some of the, the worst rumors about a human being, let alone this particular human being. Mm-hmm. Um, maybe we should hear some of the facts. These are things that we know happened from historical documents and. Were how she used her power once she had it. So as a history podcast, I would like facts. Facts are good. Rumors are delicious, but facts are probably what we should focus up on. So here's, here's some of them, they're facts. Uh, her, her first priority was meritocracy. So whereas. Roles within the court and within government. Had previously gone to high born people or were gifts like her own role, you're, the daughter of a loyal subject, so you get a leg up. Mm-hmm. She shifted that to a system where people were tested for proficiency in their area of expertise. Hired on the basis of that proficiency, irrespective of their family's status. So, oh, so if they were good at what they did, they got the job. Oh, come on. It seems simple. Seems simple. It's, I need more of this. It pissed off a lot of people. Oh, let me tell you why. Oh, well, the high born people who would've just been, oh, I guess drifted into the role. I know why. Really devastated. And it went in the face of that sort of Confucian wisdom of you are here, like almost like a caste system. This is where you belong. O only people of a certain, oh my god, social class, have the wherewithal. To rule. And when we've chatted about this before, you mentioned a certain prep school in Britain, there is that, yeah, Etonian, we know best. We know what's best for all of you, but you know who didn't mind it? Everybody else, everybody else in the country went, this is great. We all have a fair chance and things are getting better'cause people who know what they they're doing are in charge. Imagine how far we would be as a society. How much further along if we just let people who knew what they were doing, do their jobs rather than imagine some prep school. Boy, ugh, I, I can't, I could do a whole pod on this. I could just run for an hour. Maybe we should. Yeah. Well, we're good for her. That's huge. Wasn't having it. The next thing she looked at was the sovereignty of the Chinese state because it's a complicated geographical area. There are, Korea, Tibet, Japan on all the borders. Each of them with designs on some of Chinese land and historical arguments about who owns what. She strengthened China's borders, which again sounds a bit Trumpy. But she was making sure that she wasn't seeding any lands, and she tried to do that through diplomacy, but she was not afraid to do it through violence. She would step up when war was required. And again, a theme that we hear about a lot in our stories is that we, they, the women always try first. They always try diplomacy. The first and the. The greater good solution first, but if you push them, women have always been in war, have always fought in wars, always. So many fierce warriors like the African Queens that you and Luke talked about. There was no sense of anybody shrinking away. They step up and she did the same. And because she did that, she was able to reopen some of the Silk Road trade routes that had been closed during Ong and ONGs rules. Nice. Because they had been attacked by bandits. They were these lawless disease ridden dangerous trails that she made. Viable. And so economically things boost and that takes us nicely to her next. I love it. Accomplishment, economic reform. And this is probably the one that really resonated with everyday citizens the most. Um, so there's a quote here about how she shook it up. Woo. Ordered the compilation of farming textbooks, the constriction of irrigation systems, duction of taxes, and other. Ian Reform measures in 6 9 5. Wu offered the entire empire a tax free year. Her economic policies apparently improved the life of peasants, moving them towards prosperity and peace Tax Free year. Yeah. Yes, please. Truly. Yes, please, please, please. She was able to make savings. And oh, she was able to revitalize trade and stimulate the economy to the extent, or she couldn't afford it and thought, we're just gonna weather that and the government itself will pay the taxes.'cause this is gonna make people love me either way. Oh my gosh. She's shrewd. Operator. Yes. This is insane. These are examples. They are, I mean, yeah. So, um, on top of that, she promoted Buddhism beyond Confucianism as the state religion. Now, Confucianism, as we've said, saw women as inherently inferior. Mm-hmm. Buddhism, however, had no such rules. There was no concept of that. She, made it such a marker of status and prosperity to be, a. Reverent Buddhist that. Having sculptures carved into this massive, I think, limestone wall, this naturally occurring, mountainside, basically carving a Buddha was something that families of status did to sort of, again, it's a flex, like, oh yeah, I've got a Buddha on the Longman caves. How about you and how big your Buddha was, was kind of a, a marker of how. How, how devoted you were, obviously, but also like how cool and rich. Mm-hmm. How much money you, so, right. So Wu herself had a 57 foot Buddha erected. She's the Empress baby. She's the empress. She's gonna have the big old Buddha. Mm-hmm. This big old Buddha was, although obviously the Buddha himself was from India. This Buddha looked like a Tang Chinese person. They had Tang features, they had Tang clothing. They also resembled. Woo. So the facial features of this Buddha are said to be her. And um, oh, it's my ego. It is very ego, but it's also very shrewd. So there's a quote here about why she might have. Liked the branch of Buddhism that she was promoting and why she might have done this move with the statue. Okay. All right. Great. Buddhist SEC encouraged its followers to regard their earthly ruler as the representative of their Ana Buddha, Lord of the universe, a belief that we properly regarded quite favorably as Empress. Yes, she would. So like, like a Pharaoh, she's saying I am. God on earth, I have God on earth. And by making the Buddha look like herself, she's reinforcing that concept. So any threat to her rule is an offense to God. So she's like solidifying, doubling down. Okay. Understood. Understood. You'll like this one a bit more. She also being, an artist and a poet, she founded a group, a guild for the promotion of the arts. Uh, it was okay. I love that. We love a name. Here's a lovely name of the scholars of the Northern Gate, and their entire purpose was to promote the arts. She's very good at language, isn't she? Yeah. Like these phrases that she's coming out with Scholars of the Northern Gate and Celestial. The Celestial em, us. Yeah. They're very, higher being everything seems to be God-like. I think not, not by accident. I bet she, she would've had a good career in PR in a different time. She, she definitely would've been a brand advisor. She's very good.. So, this brings us to the last of the six points that thumb up her rule and, very germane to what we talk about. Women's rights. That was something that Woohoo, she woohoo. Yeah. She worked hard. She respected women. We think because of what she then did, we, see her elevating women's status right across the board. Nice. So this quote sort of sums up the steps she took to make that happen. Sweet. Wu began a series of campaigns to uplift the position of women. She advised scholars to write and edit biographies of exemplary women. Oh. To assist in, the attainment of their political objectives, Wu asserted that the ideal ruler was one who ruled as a mother does over her children. Oh, I love that. Right. She, that's the pod like in, that's a very dramatic way of what this pod is. The biographies of exemplary women to assist their attainment. Yes. It's what you were seeking to do and it's what you talked about with Maryanne and with so many of the others women's stories are. So often not documented, not forgotten or not remembered because it's assumed that who, well, who cares what you did? Who does? And she's stepped up. Like you stepped up and went, no. Well, I care and other people care and we should all care. We are going to be recording this. So thank you so much for comparing me to In the Celestial Empress, that's quite big. Well think about all the things she said to have done before you say thank you. But that's such the point though, isn't it? And this is where I'm heading with this. So important because you have. All those accomplishments that are documented, elements of a culture's history, this happened. But then you also have her detractors. The more salacious interest in history going, Ooh, she was a villain. She was guilty of sexual excess even when she was on the throne. Yeah. They said, oh, she forced foreign envoys into her bed before she would do any business dealings with them. Oh, for sure. She took these young lovers in old age, and it was, you know, age inappropriate, blah, blah, blah. She was rapacious, sexually hungry and so on. It's so like Catherine the Great, so like Catherine the Great. Yeah. If we can't stop you, we're gonna try to drag you down by making Yeah. Slut shaming rumors about you. I know. So what if you want sex when you're older? Right. How many male rulers did these exact things without anyone even questioning it, batting an eyelid. It's just normal, you know? It's good to be the king. Well, it's also good to be the celestial empress, so, huh. The other slightly more disturbing thing is the contrast between. The way she is said to a rose to power versus how she actually used the power when she got there. So we have to sort of try to square that circle of is this woman a violent, ruthless, murderous, or is this woman someone who cares for her people and the good of the state and what's best? Or is she both, is it an ends justify the means situation? It's very, very confusing to think about her that way. The stories don't match. Yeah. It does not add up. So whatever the truth of that is. What we can say is that woo ruled until she was 81, which is nice. It's nearly impossible to live to 81 at that time. Yeah. Let alone to rule, let alone to rule when you have pissed off all these powerful, rich people. So true. Yeah. She, she must have had like a protection or something like that. She had something going for her. After she died, however, the the emperors and people of status were, uh, celebrated after their death with a sculpture called a steely. And Okay. Typically the steely was kind of your greatest hits. Like, here lies so and so. They did this, they did this, they did this. Oh, nice. Woo. Steely was left blank. What, what do you mean? It was literally left blank. There's a photo there of it. It's just a great blank space. Just a sheet of stone. Oh. As though to say whatever she thinks she did, she did nothing. Oh, and I think that is some serious shade. Some of the scholars speculated that it was a bit like, oh gosh, I should know the names, but one of the female pharaohs was succeeded by someone who immediately had all of her temples, all of her monuments destroyed because he was just so butt hurt that a woman had done some stuff. So it, it's a bit like, doesn't matter what you do, ladies. As soon as, as soon as you can be erased, you can't fight back. You're, you're gone. But the people themselves didn't forget her. And there's a quote here about that. A Steely in She Shang. Province shows that in time of flood or drought, people pray at a temple in the name of the celestial. Empress Wu is still honored today by an annual agricultural festival there, especially on her birthday. Ah, so she the working class people. The one where she got the right information to, she was listening to the right people. The people who were affected by the tax free thing. All of that they remember. Mm, yeah. Yeah. Okay. This is quite classes then, isn't it? There's like two classes going on. Yeah, I think you're so right. I think there is definitely that and it's the, yeah, she did things that they would never have dreamed that they would see in their lifetime and they haven't forgotten. Wow. Yep. So, ah, uh, we're coming to the end of it now. The only other things I think that I wanted to say, that we have to think about whether we accept the version of Zain. The murder stories. The murder stories. So true. The rumors, or do we see her as a brilliant reformer?'Cause that was a baby girl, remember as well. And so she supposedly killed a baby girl and then fixed all these women's rights and, you know. Produce economic reform for children, including female children. I don't believe That's interesting, isn't it? It doesn't add up. It doesn't add up, but whatever we believe. I have a little cheesy line to end on, like I like to do and I love it. We have to admit that she was a fascinating figure she refused to stay behind the curtain. That is, she did. That is my cheesy ending. That's so true. It's very true and it's so right. The Catherine, the great parallels, the Empress Matilda Parallels and Ana Parallels. There were all of these women who ascended and made good changes and then were, oh, white. Yeah, but she, ugh, she did this or she did that. And it's like, did she though? Or are you just talking shit?'cause you don't like what she did? Like what fascinates me as well with these stories is how. Wiped, they are like, you are not even gonna write down. Those achievements on that steely. And it's just like Maryann last week where people were actually throwing her away. Her letters and illustrations, they were, it's such a physical act of erosion. And like with the paintings, like with Julie Le Leicester, they're physically, well this must, well this must have been a man. It's such a deliberate. It's not. They're forgotten. I think maybe we need to change our phrasing on the pod a little bit. Really? Yeah, that's a good point. It's been for forgotten. That's a good, it's erased, isn't it? They're very, very different. It's, I'm amazed at how deliberate everything is. That is such a good point and it, it makes me wonder in this case, like in the case of the paintings, you had scholars go back and very deliberately look for those erasure, look for those thefts, and I think in this case we have historical evidence of how China prospered under her possibly because there were open borders and trade. People from other cultures were able to say, no, I was there. People were living well, no, I was there. Women were being educated like this happened. Yeah, because the documentation in her own society probably would've been destroyed by people who would've benefited from saying, oh, a woman leader is terrible. They're just. Like every, every accusation is a confession. Isn't it interesting that all of the rumors that they start about these women are about sexual voracious and so on, and those are such, oh, it's so boring. Classically male. Traits like so basic. Yeah. Like, come on dudes. Like, do do better. Do better, do better. Yeah. Don't be mediocre. I love it. Oh my gosh, what a story. That was quite a rollercoaster. Kara Rollercoaster. There's a lot going on and I'm sorry for all the violence that's, unfortunately comes with this story. Important. Yeah, it's very um. Everything seems to be so dramatic. You know what I mean? Like the, the drama of the rumors and then the, the upswing of that, of the drama of a celestial impress, and then creating your own Chinese character because there's nothing that suits me in them. You know? Every attacks free year, everything's very extremist. Isn't it? Big in the story? Big? She went big, she mix it. The rollercoaster. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

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