Alvin Owusu (00:01.053)
And welcome to another episode of the Best of Three Podcasts. I'm Alvin. That's Tori. It is you know, we are somewhere between in grass season, Serena, Serena season, and I promise we're gonna get to the Serena talk. but today we're gonna spend some time just doing a little bit of what we call a mid year review, right? For the for the women's tour. We we opened our year kind of giving a preview of you know some players and what we th not necessarily what we thought might happen, but things we were keeping an eye on. And that was a

Now's a good time, I always feel like the three weeks between gr of grass season before we we get to Wimbledon is a nice time to take a breath, reflect a little bit, see where some dust has settled. but before we get into that, TH, how you doing?

Torrey Hawkins (00:47.318)
I'm doing well, Alvin. I'm doing well. It is you know, this is a great time for the for the purists like myself, the old school, you know, the the the triple OGs that love the Wimbledon, that love the the volleys, that love the all court games, the the whites and and all of the all of the points that everything continental. You know what I mean, with the grip. So I am really looking forward to this break.

Alvin Owusu (01:10.055)
Ha ha ha.

Torrey Hawkins (01:14.5)
it's it's been a great it was a great clay court season and a great clay court tournament. A couple of players who I felt were one in particular who's very much deserved and an and another up and comer who I feel like really announced her presence. But now that we are in the grass, I feel like we are in the it's a whole different set of skills, you know what I mean? I do have one thing for you and I wanna ask you how you're doing, but the second point is can you imagine?

How Borg won five Wimbies in a row and won six French Opens. Think about that. Now he didn't win them in consecutive years. I think it was three and three. But looking at how different the surfaces are in whatever that was, late 70s, early 80s. Can you just put your head? I mean, I know it's been done since, and obviously Rafa had has done it, and obviously a few of them have won it.

You know, multiple times obviously Roth with the French, but can you imagine him doing it back to back with less tune-ups than we have now, right? And just going from one into the next, going from the slowest and the grindiest to the quickest and the fastest. And he was from the baseline. It it makes you appreciate how good Bjorn was back in the day.

Alvin Owusu (02:20.998)
Yep, it's shorter. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (02:34.8)
Yeah, I was listening to Andy's Andy Roddicks surf podcast this morning and he they were talking about Bora Kurch Barbara Kurchigova, right? And she's won two Grand Slams, she won the French in Wommelin, but like he he he brought up the idea of like how many players have actually won both? Like it's a short list. And you you mentioned yeah, you mentioned Borg. you think about the greatest champions. obviously Serena won both. Venus did not

Torrey Hawkins (02:53.89)
Right. Very actually very short.

Torrey Hawkins (03:05.048)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (03:05.096)
Arena as great as she is has not won either. Ega randomly has won both.

Torrey Hawkins (03:10.966)
Either one, right? Shen one either one. Wow.

Alvin Owusu (03:13.648)
Right. Yeah. We're we're gonna come we're c we'll we're gonna get to Miss Sabalinka. Don't you don't you worry. But the idea of like winning the channel slam, right? It's like it the the skill sets are on paper completely different, right? The things you need to succeed on grass are very different. Things you need to succeed on clay. But I think there is something about the makeup of the athlete that has the ability to adapt. allows you to adapt to both. Like you need to be a fan one a fantastic athlete to

Torrey Hawkins (03:18.67)
Wow.

Torrey Hawkins (03:42.872)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (03:43.088)
to win on either. and then to win on both, like you need it you can have no holes in your game. Which is interesting. And that Ega did Ega did that Ega did win it.

Torrey Hawkins (03:50.072)
Yeah. And that's easier said than done. Right. It's easier said than done. Like, you know, and that's the thing about Borg, about how he wasn't the hugest server, had a had a massive forehand, backhand was all day. he's not known for his volleys, right? He's not known for his transition game, you know, and obviously Mac was. So I just looked back at it and I was I was just starting to think back, like, man, back in that era, right? You know, the balls were still white back in the day. You know what I mean? So

Alvin Owusu (03:57.584)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (04:19.352)
How was he able to transition from the clay to the grass and do so well and for the better part of six years, right? He had tennis on lockdown for those, you know, roughly five to six weeks, you know, up between French to in the Wimby. So anyway, it just it just got me thinking. Having said that, Alvin, how are you?

Alvin Owusu (04:42.235)
I'm well. I'm well. you can see me repping the repping the Black Stars, of Ghana Ghanaian heritage and descent. my team just put up a one zero win against Panama, so things are things are strong as a as a as a grinder. but we're here to we're here to celebrate. It's a great time of year, while we have our eyes on the tennis World Cup is happening, so it cannot it cannot be ignored.

Yeah. but yeah, so World Cup World Cup Spirit. Ghana's playing some good ball right now. Just got a squeaked out a one-zero victory against Panama. but we're not here to talk about the World Cup, even though it brings us all together. It's a fun thing. we're here to talk about tennis. So I am I appreciate it. It's fresh. It's it's my parents brought it brought it for me when they came to visit. So it's it's direct from the motherland if you if you will.

Torrey Hawkins (06:08.181)
Yeah.

Good looking Jersey, by the way.

That's all.

that's that's awesome.

Alvin Owusu (06:22.907)
But yeah, so I I have been, you know, the I always feel like after a Grand Slam the there's a little bit of a hangover, right? And I am I think I've been very public on this on this on this podcast. I I apparently people watch this podcast, so it's public. I appreciate grass court tennis for what it is. I don't love it. I don't love it. I can't get into it, right? It's a the very it's a v it's a specialized game. The points are short.

Torrey Hawkins (06:44.054)
Mm.

Alvin Owusu (06:50.833)
It's just not it's just does it doesn't get me going the way Clay does, you know? So I I watch it kind of like I I turn it on while I'm working, but like I'm I'm waiting for Wimble, then it'll have my full attention. but it it does make for a great time to have this conversation about like where we are right now with with the top of the women's game. And I say the top because we have seen, I think, six new or six six different Grand Slam winners in a row.

Torrey Hawkins (07:11.107)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (07:20.483)
over the last six grand slams. Which is kinda wild.

Torrey Hawkins (07:25.664)
almost hard to it's almost hard to conceptualize that you know because history I don't think this has happened before. I mean not that I remember in in recent memory, you know what I mean? We've almost always had a a person that's been hot, even if it's just been for that term or two or three or that year. Not so many concurrent ones back to back and you know and and

Let's face it, this past French was an absolute, you know, was a monkey wrench. As the English would say, a spanner in the works, you know what I mean? So it's a complete, you know, you know, I'm gonna say, it it just completely threw off whatever you thought you knew, you know what I mean, as far as who was gonna be last woman standing. So you're right. And and Alvin, I looking at the way it is, it could be another

Alvin Owusu (07:57.563)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (08:16.456)
six going forward. I mean, you know what I mean? There's nothing really to speak to me right now that says, Yeah, that was an anomaly, but it's gonna be this person from here on out, or these two from here on out. I don't know. I literally I'm looking at all the ones, the usual suspects, and I'm looking at it and I'm like, it's an absolute crapshoot right now. And so

You know, I I I'm interested to have this conversation because there's a everybody has a good chance and no one to me is just leaping off the page saying, It's my time to put it on lockdown. Right. And we

Alvin Owusu (08:50.287)
Right. And we've you know, we we can kind of look at this in two different directions, right? Like one parody is is great because you go into a grand slam and you don't know what's gonna happen, right? Like you you truly do not. And on the other side of it, it's like it's hard to really build on momentum as a sport when you continually have different champions. it makes it hard for the average fan to turn on their television during a grand slam.

back end of a second week and go, I don't know who that is. Who who who is that person? it's I mean for us for us, you know, tennis nerds, if you will, those who are following kind of week in, week out, it it's great. We know all these players. and before we got on, I mentioned like the top of the women's game right now is both wide and deep at the same time. Like of the top ten players in the world right now, five of them are Grand Slam champions. Like just

Torrey Hawkins (09:40.248)
Yeah. Hundred percent.

Torrey Hawkins (09:48.291)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (09:49.416)
Let that like like let that sit. Like I don't know the last time men's or women's that that was the case. I mean maybe in the nineties I'm sure at some point Davenport and Hingis and Serena and and Venus all

Torrey Hawkins (10:04.238)
And cellus kind of all coalesced.

Alvin Owusu (10:07.158)
Yeah, yeah. I'd have to go back and check it, but like we're talking they've all won recently. Like in the last ten Grand Slams, the last eight Grand Slams, those five women that I mentioned have all won one. So it's very it's it's a very unique place. and I'm having a tough time understanding like so I I pose this kind of question to you the you know before we started recording, who's having a good year right now?

Torrey Hawkins (10:38.082)
I'm gonna push back and say everyone's having a good year. I don't think anyone is having a great year. And I feel like I'm looking at these names and I'm looking at with the exception of maybe, maybe 10 players, I would say that as I'm looking down to the to the to the top 30, I would tell you that with the exception of a, you know,

and I'm gonna call out your one of your faves, with the exception of those that have gotten hurt, obviously. and those that you know, I look at Yelena Ostapenko. I'm looking at a obviously, you know, the

you know, Maddie Keyes hasn't been playing phenomenal, but still not not terrible, right? obviously, you know, you're looking at players like, you know, Naomi hasn't been playing off the the hot streak she kind of came into US Open with last year per se, but still not playing terrible. Those besides those handful that were, you know, inching into or just inside the top ten, you know,

I feel like, Alvin, I feel like everyone's having a pretty good year. I'm looking at, you know, I was before she took her little spill, Vicki and Boko was playing pretty well. Ivo Yovich is playing very well. You know, you can't say they're not they're they're playing terrible. They just haven't been dominant. And I think that's the parody in the game, Alvin. I really do. I think they're all have they've all kind of caught up to each other a little bit. we had a similar conversation, didn't we, with the NBA finals. We've had six different, is it six, maybe maybe more, different champs in the last so many years?

Alvin Owusu (12:12.75)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (12:14.698)
So to your point, it's who would have thought, right? Who would have thought that none of those teams would would have repeated? It was almost a thing in the 90s and 2000s. You almost always repeated. And if you were good, you won three in a row, right? I mean

80s, 90s, early two thousands, almost every team, even if they got back to the final that next year and maybe won the one they may they didn't repeat, but they were still in the conversation for the team to stuck together and so on and so forth. Alvin, it's happen it's happened there too. So I'm looking at this through a little different lens and saying everybody's playing some good tennis right now. No one's playing great tennis, no one's playing dominant SmackDown tennis. and and I'll be honest, I I think that's good for the game. I think it's good for the turnover. Marketing.

type and and fan recognition and all that. I hear that, maybe ratings. Not sure. I don't follow the Nielsen ratings, but I think it's been it also then leads to, in my opinion, to, well who's who might

get hot this next two weeks. And I think that's actually in some ways good for the game from my perspective, because you got a tournament like Wimbledon as well. To your point, not all play well on the grass. And now you walk into this tournament and now that this could really be a nice shake up for for people. as you know, Alvin, it's really two different weeks. There's when the grass is green, right? And things are slow. And the drop volley and the you'll see a lot of big serving and a lot of going behind and a lot of drop shots.

Alvin Owusu (13:36.218)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (13:44.15)
some easier volleys and then week two, week three, whenever, you know, depending on when when you want to count the start, when it starts when that when that grass starts to fade away and it starts to see a little more, a little more dirt, a little more a little more hard. And the people can actually turn on the ball and you know, center court starts looking a little more like an abstract painting than it does a a freshly mowed lawn. And that's when I think the real bangers start to kind of come back out. So it'll be interesting to see. And I I personally I'm predicting somebody else

who's yet to raise the hardware I think may raise the hardware this tournament. So and be that be that Sabolinka who hasn't won one yet or be that, you know, somebody up and coming, you know, who who who hasn't gotten there yet. I I I just feel it's that open right now. It's that wide open right now, in my opinion.

Alvin Owusu (14:32.356)
Yeah, and and you mentioned Sabalinka and I think that's a good place to start because we have, you know, we we've talked about her and her dominance as recently as, you know, leading up to the Australian Open, right? She finished the year rank year ranked number one in the world. She's number one the world right now. on the aggregate, you know, as the rankings go, you know, rolling twelve months, she has been the the outstanding performer. But

Torrey Hawkins (14:45.336)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (15:01.732)
But, right, we haven't seen I mean, she's won one of the last six grand slams. In the last six months, she's won she's won three tournaments. She won a five hundred. She won she won Brisbane, final US Open. I mean, pardon me, Australian Open. She won both you know a Sunshine Double. And then we just is it a is it a we're looking at the Clay Court season and it was less than seller from her.

I think and she would probably admit the same. and then compare it to her hardcourt success. But is that is that something we should start to expect from her? Because what she's never won French Open. She's never won Wimbledon. She is a hardcourt champion, kinda through and through, right? Are we I I I raised this question a couple weeks ago and I'm gonna raise it again. Are we con if if the decline of our of our champion

Torrey Hawkins (15:30.38)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (15:46.478)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (16:00.459)
When it happens, when it happens, what will it look like? And I I I contend that this is exactly what it would look like. It's a it's it's step by step. It goes from dominance, which is what she's been for the last two years, to still on top, but not dominant. And then it's when was the last time Marina won a Grand Slam? Or a couple around a sixty like

Torrey Hawkins (16:00.63)
Okay.

Right. What will it look like? Right.

Alvin Owusu (16:28.525)
She's been pretty she's been pretty much a bank as far as like semifinals of a Grand Slam prior to French Open. But it happened. Okay. What's one more?

Torrey Hawkins (16:35.768)
Right. Yep. What's the what what's the s what's the scientific term? Is it is it

Apergy or whatever when when a when a an object gets near the height of the descent and then and then and then right at that top part where it hits that terminal velocity and then and then starts to come down. Though the what do I call it, the maybe the other, what's another term for it? Where where where it visibly looks like it's staying still, but it's actually on the way up down. I I hear you on that. I from where I sit.

I see it being more they've caught up, and I see her dominance masking as consistency. She's just that much more consistent than they are. I don't, I feel like she's been caught in terms of her stride. Not necessarily she's on the way down. Now.

having the the results the same right the the act the end result is the same she hasn't won she's only won one of the six it's and and to your point it's it's difficult to kind of put into words when or if she will win that next one clearly you don't count her out right she's always there toward the later ends of of most tournaments 100% right and and and I think we'll be for the next four to six right

Alvin Owusu (17:42.092)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (17:57.903)
She's probably the betting favorite, like walking into every grand slam. Still.

Torrey Hawkins (18:06.292)
I'm not to your point, is she the lockdown favorite? And I would have to say no. But to me, that speaks more to the level of the rest of the top ten and other players. You know, we just had a grow quality that we got to the darn final of a tournament. So we know how good and and it happened last year's French to some degree with with the wild card with with Lois Boisson get to the semis. We are starting to see these breakout players, guys and and and and ladies, who are starting to make some moves, which to me just shows you.

The you mentioned the term aggregate, the tour is getting better every day. And I feel like that's a testament to the level. And I feel like that also is tougher on a lot of our champions because it's that much harder to dispatch them. It's that much harder to get through that match and not have the death of a thousand cuts. It's that much harder to play that. You know, the draw is well, she's the one seeing it that draw.

you know, one one loss completely, right? Completely blows that draw wide open, which which we saw we saw that the guys and and the ladies at at the French. So I I just see that happen more and more often. And you know, once there's blood in the water, Alvin, you know the sharks, the sharks do come out.

Alvin Owusu (19:26.19)
Yeah. And that's an that's an interesting point because I I think you're it it's kind of two things here. The the depth of talent in the women's game right now, I think is really the star of this conversation, right? Like we yes, we just had a qualifier make it all the way to the finals of the French Open, right? This is two years in a row. You mentioned Bessant wildcard made it to the semis. We've also seen like this week Donovekich like lucky loser.

won she wins Queens. Is that right? She won Queens or was it the other one that she won? Her talking Bosch. I think it Queens. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (19:58.222)
Yeah, I I think it was Queens and she she beat your girl Emma in semi year of the final.

Alvin Owusu (20:02.573)
Yeah, who I might owe a p an apology to. I don't know. I was talking smack about I was I was putting I was pressing Emma. I was pressing. We we shall see what comes of it, but I would love n nothing more than to look like a stupid podcaster and have her mess around in Wim Wimbledon. That would be awesome. That would be awesome. But yeah, the so the bottom is coming the bottom is coming up. or or

Torrey Hawkins (20:19.234)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (20:28.507)
As athletes get more athletic, like training gets better, talent gets, you know, it it's easier, maybe easier to reach one's peak. You're getting a lot better of a tennis player from top to bottom, right? The the talent is not concentrated around the top ten, it's all the way through maybe fifty. And anyone, given the right circumstances, has the ability to put together seven in a row. It's not just not just four of them. It could literally be twelve women.

Torrey Hawkins (20:39.182)
Yeah. So

Torrey Hawkins (20:53.358)
Mm.

Alvin Owusu (20:57.763)
Who could win a grand slam?

Torrey Hawkins (20:59.266)
Yeah. A at any given time. At any given time.

Alvin Owusu (21:01.495)
Any given time. And but the but the point about Arena, and and this is I think this kind of speaks to your point about it's not it's her consistency is the actual dominant feature. And

Torrey Hawkins (21:15.554)
That that's her mutant ability, right? If she were an if she were an an X an X-Men member, her her mutant ability would be her consistency on all services, on every part of the year, relatively healthy and and and injury free. Huge, you know, obviously. Don't we don't take anything away from the game. She hits she still has one of the biggest serves, one of the biggest forehands, certainly has one of the best backhands, has as all court game.

There's you there's there's not a lot of downside to her game. I just feel like her mutantability, right? we forget that Wolverine's mutantability was his healing of himself, not his cause, right? So my point being that's the in that same conversation to me, that's where Arena, that's her mutantability.

Alvin Owusu (21:54.851)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (22:01.613)
Yeah, and so we we start to think about like, okay, if that mutinability is the underlying factor, the underlying trait that makes her who she actually is as a as a champion, as a world number one, then what is it that could eat away at that consistency? 'Cause we're we're here, right? She is she is twenty eight years old, right? That is the we we've talked about it like for for a female tennis player, like that's she's technically on the back end of her peak, right?

And I I I kinda use like the loose term of like everyone's peak is about three years, right? Most players. Some some hit that peak a few different times. I think these the these weirdos, the the big three generation, like, you know, a couple of different waves here. But, you know, three years at your highest level is about what you get. And we are in year three of her being at the top of the heap. And she's twenty eight years old. So like

at some point you start to I would imagine if you put yourself in her shoes, you start to go, where does that motivation come from? Where is that that that little f that fire inside that drives you to do the extra blank or, you know, dig a little deeper and and find that X i in through the course of a not just a match or tournament, but throughout the course of the season. And now we're starting to see I think if you if you don't get there

Torrey Hawkins (23:16.482)
Yeah. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (23:27.543)
Now you start to see the weird the weird losses. The okay, I just went back to back to back events without getting scratch. It's like that's odd. It happens. But for a dominant world number one, that that doesn't happen often. Doesn't happen often.

Torrey Hawkins (23:37.656)
Yeah. Yep.

Right. Doesn't happen that often. Right. Right. For sure. For sure. And and I again I will stand by the next four to six tournaments for her. But to your point, do I feel there are that many more people that can beat her on a given day? That you used to be, and I love your word profile. Used to be a certain profile that was really on at that time. And it took a little bit of arena being a little bit off. That profile unfortunately has

has not changed, but there are more people that are playing that level that can't. Right. And so to me, you add into that, you know, what what cost is it to Arena Sabalenka to come into a tournament where she's not playing phenomenal? Does she still have the mentality that she that she can and will win a a Grand Slam when she hasn't won one? In other words, does that play into her mind a little bit that, you know,

some of the some of the old skeletals from her past of you know not coming through mentally from time to time. Does that play into her head a little bit, realizing that she has, you know, a limited window. Does that does that have any bearing whatsoever with where she's at? That's those are things that we don't know that might that might might might play into the into the mental side of a little bit. But I still feel for the next four to six she's easily the the one to beat and until until that changes and until there's another player that is

That is, you know, that kicks her out of that top spot. You know what I mean? And that that includes Rebecca. That includes, you know, that includes Marta. That includes, you know, Iga and JPEG and and and Mira now. You what I mean? It includes all of them. I don't none of them have shown me Rebecca. It's it's probably the the clearest favorite to dethrone her going toe to toe as far as can just absolutely take the the ball, the the racket out of her hand. But not many of the others can.

Torrey Hawkins (25:35.84)
And so that's why I feel like for the next forty six so she may eke out one more year in your, you know, in your in in in your in your bell curve. You see what I'm saying, as far as her peak. I I at least from where I sit.

Alvin Owusu (25:48.876)
Yeah, I I'm just starting to realize that I had this I had this idea, this thought or question. And yes you were talking, I was like, wait, Tori, we just talked about this, and then I realized we didn't because of my weird travel schedule during the French Open. We did not talk about this. Okay, Arena Sabalenka has this very and I'll have to go back and look at the stats, but her her three set record in Grand Slams is oddly poor. It's oddly poor. And what does that

Torrey Hawkins (26:14.946)
Yeah. Yep. Three sets, not so much. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (26:19.498)
Right, right. So wh what is that? What if you let yourself go backwards, okay, what is the contributing factor to that? And get let's get down to the tennis here, right? There's what she does well is obvious, but what she doesn't do well is not so obvious because it takes a very skilled either extremely a player with a lot of firepower or someone who has enough craft, like a like a Schneider, to pull it out of her, right? Arena does not

necessarily have a B game. And you've seen her add things like people have have have have celebrated her her slice and the drop shot and so on and so forth. And I'm like, okay, she can hit the shot, but it's not a it's not a tactic. It's not like if you if she knows that you struggle with the low backhand slice, like she's not gonna start slicing to your backhand. Like she's not gonna do that. It's it's a shot. Yeah, it's a it's

Torrey Hawkins (27:14.894)
It's still for sure.

Alvin Owusu (27:17.807)
It's a shot, not a new not a new part of the package, right? It's not a new package. It's just a it's just another tool. But as far as like when she gets into these third set matches, she's like, I'm going this way. And y you can it you can stop me, but I'm not going another way. You're just gonna have to hang with me. And you look at the Rabacana matches, right? Rabacchina will just stay there and bang with her all day and then

Torrey Hawkins (27:20.83)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (27:43.476)
Maybe i it's a toink it's a coin toss, quite quite honestly, at the end of the third step between those two, right? But w what I

Torrey Hawkins (27:49.174)
For sure. Or or or you might even, and you've seen this, or she backs off that A game from time to time, and it's not as big. It's almost like a safe version of her A game, is to your point. I've seen that happen in a few matches where she just lets up just a little bit, a little safer on the target, little she hits it big, but it's big down the middle, almost letting you lose a little bit. And that might be just the window, to your point, because of no true B game.

She goes to safe a game, all right, which by definition

Alvin Owusu (28:22.944)
A minus.

Torrey Hawkins (28:23.822)
And I don't want to stop your thought. But that's that's the the downside of having no real B game, to your point. And I think that also and that plays into the nerves slash the no closeout. I've seen her have several matches where she did not close the person out. And she was, and there were times when she when she was on in that particular match, she was absolute gangbusters, just blowing through. But at the end of that match of that contest and those three sets, she looked vulnerable.

or it looked like you could take it from her if you if you could do it. And that's again, I I feel like I stole your thought. So it stole what you but I'm saying. Part of that goes into that third set match result that's not as stellar as it as it you know as it could have been.

Alvin Owusu (29:11.96)
Yeah, and i it's almost like okay, she's she's the tennis version of like Mike Tyson, right? She needs to knock you out. Like sh sh she needs to knock you out. But if you if you find yourself in the tenth round and you're still standing and you're still hanging, it's like, well I can't knock you out, so I gotta wait until you either quit or or what? Or what? And this is the or what is troubling because the or what leaves room for

Torrey Hawkins (29:19.158)
And the four five. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (29:32.574)
or and the or and the oracle is is troubling.

Alvin Owusu (29:39.913)
Something else. Like it leaves room for for Coca Golf to to just kind of outlast her. It leaves room for someone like Dana Schneider to just kind of like throw some stuff in there and if you can't close out every single point, I'm I'm starting to find my range a little bit. I'm not I'm not I haven't swung myself tired this entire match, right? And that's a that's a real thing. That is a real that's a very, very real thing. And then this is as we have more

Torrey Hawkins (30:01.933)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (30:09.407)
more players, the Valkyries of her type, right? It it makes what she does less novel, right? You've seen it. So like exactly I go I go to Schneider, right? Who did Schneider beat right before she played Arena? I think she beat Madison. She Madison's 6-0 in the third, right? I mean, playing against Madison is a nice facsimile of playing against Arena, right? And what did she do to Arena in third set? 6-0 in the third. So

Torrey Hawkins (30:17.996)
More more normalizes it a little bit. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (30:35.278)
Right. Right. Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (30:39.485)
It's the more of them there are, the easier it becomes to play against them. So you need to be able to do something different. But I mean, nothing wrong with I she's got four grand slams, right? She's been numbering the world for two and a half straight years. It's it's to a certain extent it's working. But

Torrey Hawkins (30:51.64)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (30:57.343)
You would have thought she would have won more by now, considering

Torrey Hawkins (30:59.512)
Right. And and consider the dominance, the ranking, and and all of everything else. A hundred percent. Hundred percent.

Alvin Owusu (31:04.961)
Right. And so like so i I I I'll bring this back around with a question.

What how many of these left do we have? Like what is the next what is the next evolution of Arena Sabolinka? Or is there is there one? Like when I say when I say like what does the end look like, this is kind of my this is kind of my point. I like I'll we're here.

Torrey Hawkins (31:24.536)
question was well well positioned and and I'm not sure there is an answer. as I say my only pushback was in the wording not in the question you know because it looks like it is right now. It definitely looks like that and and that and it's unfortunate but it's also the evolution of the game.

Alvin Owusu (31:34.829)
That's fair. That's fair.

Torrey Hawkins (31:44.724)
Like Serena, we'll tease for we'll tease that out later. She has ushered in a level of a game and a level of of quality of play and a pace and of absolute smash mouth tennis that has made the tour have to catch up. The counter punchers have had to be counter punishers. The big hitters have had to be able to hit big off both sides. You know, you've had one two-time grand stamp that had to go back to the drawing board and fix her serving for him just to be relevant with that type and level.

And another three or four grand five times. How many did he go in? Five, six. And let another six-time slam champ to go back to the drawing board for the clay. So you know she is having an effect on the field, right? And they're making changes in real time just to stay competitive to try to be, you know, hold up for hardware at the end of the tournament. So that also has to count for something. She's making the tour better, you know, and and and

Alvin Owusu (32:18.433)
He gets one six.

Torrey Hawkins (32:41.962)
Why again I don't give the Serena comp comparison loosely. She's the closest thing to Serena we've had since Serena in terms of dominance, consistency, and has helped to transform the game and has kind of hyperspaced the game with where it was before when she found it and taken it another another level. And the tour, unfortunately for catching up at this very point in time. And I think that's actually it's a great thing for tennis. It's unfortunate for Arena.

Alvin Owusu (33:10.701)
It's unfortunate for Arena. It's unfortunate for Arena. but there is something to say about her her super her her mutant ability of being consistent is that I still think she's probably gonna win Wimbledon. Like it it it makes it makes sense. Like of course she should. Yeah, she's a better favorite.

Torrey Hawkins (33:26.05)
Yep. I again as you say, betting favor. You know what I mean? She's she's who I got winning it. I mean, you know, y just because of the and and I look at the people that won it last year and I'm a little concerned given their current level of play, their current sharpness right now. So again, I I I agree with you a hundred percent. So but I know there's probably a few others you want to kinda get to first.

Alvin Owusu (33:46.615)
Well no, I think that's a fantastic segue because last year's champion is was Iga Swiatec. And I I am probably a little more bullish on Iga two point than you are, right? I I I look at Iga and I go, Okay, you're giving me a six time Grand Slam champion, right? Who is twenty five years old. I think she might have just turned twenty five. She's and yeah, she did just turn twenty five a couple weeks ago. So

While she hasn't put it necessarily put it back together, I've been extremely, extremely pleased with what I've seen of her tennis now that she's gone full full Spanish, full Spanish mode in her camp, right? the way that she's playing gives me a lot of confidence about I'm more confident about her over the next four to six slams than I am actually about Arena because

Torrey Hawkins (34:31.402)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (34:45.949)
She's got the path down now. She's just trying to get comfortable with all of the tools working and in all the situations while going down that path. And yeah, though Go ahead.

Torrey Hawkins (34:49.368)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (34:53.666)
Right, the new tool. Sure.

Right, I agree.

Will it be? Will it be enough?

Alvin Owusu (35:05.901)
I think will it be enough for what?

Torrey Hawkins (35:09.474)
Will it be enough for Grass? One. Will it be enough to win a slam against an arena? An Elena Rubacina? You know, a you know, to go through an Anisimova, to to be crafty enough to

to withstand an an Alina Svidelina, you know, a Marty. So that's my point. Will it be enough? Is it enough for her to downshift and upshift to remain at that high level in the top five, top four? I think she's three or four right now, in the top three, or is it enough to overtake? And I would say it's enough for her to stay in the top four, maybe three. I don't know if it's enough to take.

The number one spot and to win one of the next six, in my opinion. I don't take anything away from her. And it though and the lady has won and proven herself beyond a shadow of a doubt. I just wonder: is the serve big enough for right now? Is her game with the heavy ball that she's getting better now, her tactics getting stronger? Does that help her? Also, like Arena, she's also been a great front runner, doesn't have a a phenomenal third set.

record or of the ability to hold off a player who's coming back. And after she hits you in the mouth with those returns and absolutely, you know, blood is your lip with those with those first two or three breaks, she also hasn't had a great B game to do something different. And so unfortunately for her, she's just a tiny just a tad bit shorter, a little bit less reserved, and not as big of a gun on that on that forehand wing. But again

Arguably the best returns in the game, right? So you can't say, you know, easy tied for top two, if not tied for tied for you know, for in and then easily in the top three. So there is a reason she won six slams. Is it going to be enough these changes to overtake? What say you?

Alvin Owusu (37:13.399)
to overtake. I I think once we get if you if you fast forward eighteen months from now, the number one spot for a while I think is going to change hands frequently. I I think we're I think we're past we're getting towards Yeah, well I mean yeah, I mean Arena's been number one for for years. and ego is number one for years.

Torrey Hawkins (37:25.238)
We're we're the

Torrey Hawkins (37:30.828)
Right. The more important thing as far as the as far as the Topsy turkey with the with the slams, at some point that's gonna affect Arena's ranking too. Let's be honest, is what I'm getting at. So numerically speaking, right, I mean UN

Alvin Owusu (37:39.604)
Right. Well, it it's gonna have an impact. The thing is it has an impact on everyone because like we talked about this ahead of time, like okay, like Amanda Anasomova, who we'll get to in a little bit, right? She's gonna have all these points coming off after, you know, she's got back to back grandson finals to defend. But that's true. But also, who's eating up those points from behind her? Like she's got a two thousand point lead over she's five in the world right now, something like over like whoever's nine, I in Boko. It's like, well, how who

Who's gonna take up all those points? Like, it could be anyone. It's gonna be they're gonna be dispersed amongst everyone. So like it's

Torrey Hawkins (38:10.935)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (38:14.968)
Correct. With with the with the Wolanska with Maya coming up scooping up points that brought her from whatever she was, one 147 or something.

Alvin Owusu (38:21.872)
Yeah, seriously. Seriously. She's gonna Maya's gonna eat for the next twelve months. She might be one in the world before the French open next year. You never know. You never know.

Torrey Hawkins (38:30.03)
So my point is those final points didn't go to anybody inside the top twenty is what I'm saying. So, you know, good for her, but not, you know, it wasn't like, that that's gonna really be the push that so and so needed. No, no, and those points straight to Maya.

Alvin Owusu (38:36.052)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (38:45.866)
No, like no. It's it's it it's really, really wild right now. But like about Iga, like to your point about like is it gonna be enough? I think, you know, enough for what is the question. Like enough to win Wimbledon. Like, well, yeah, she won it last year, so like it's enough to win the tournament. And I think what we've also seen is all those players you mentioned, she'd have to beat any of them to get to win the Wimbledon. And same thing with Mira Andreva, she'd have to beat anyone right ahead of her to win the French Open. Like that can also happen too.

Torrey Hawkins (39:15.694)
Hundred percent. And and likely and likely will.

Alvin Owusu (39:18.795)
We've had a we've had a lot of Grand Slams in the last, you know, on in the last I would say from all of twenty twenty five into the beginning of twenty twenty six at the Australian Open where you got a lot of chalk towards the back end of the women's tournament, right? And it it is great. Right. It's great. But that didn't happen at the French Open. And it when it doesn't happen, it's like someone has to win the tournament. Like someone someone's gonna stand there with the trophy at the end. And yeah, they're all they all they all count the same. Like

Torrey Hawkins (39:44.556)
Lee Travine. Somebody's gotta win these tournaments. Right? Why not why not me?

Alvin Owusu (39:48.85)
like Mira's Grand Slam counts like like Arena's US Open, like Elena's Australian Open. They're all the same. They all count the same.

Torrey Hawkins (39:58.712)
We we all got hardware.

Speaking of Ega, my question to you is, and we always mention this player because of her pure ball striking ability, because she can look so good at s at so many different times against some of the best. Make them look stupid sometimes. I mean, make him look like she's just playing on another level.

Her mental game, while it looked like it was very, very solid over the last three to six months, seems to be getting a little mental again. And I'm talking about a Kazakhstani finist. What what say you about Miss Rabakina is clearly she's been having some issues, and I there was some, you know, some scuttle butt about some social media being attacked, this, that, and the third. I don't I don't

meandering those circles per se. Clearly, you know, it would i if it were me or my family, I'd be more attuned to it and I don't want to dismiss it by any means. It just seems to me there's still the weight of expectations and there's still the weight of her

answering her own fulfilling her own talent and her own presence and being in the moment and I feel like she when she's playing well it happens. When she's not playing as well it it can kind of show. And there's a reason why with those winning the tour final last year and winning Australia while she's still at number two and hasn't truly taken over arena. And I and I my question more to you is

Torrey Hawkins (41:44.322)
Do you see the same thing? Do you see a and in that Atlanta's not showed you the consistency that you'd hoped given her recent run into the year, first of the year? And then the second follow-up question to that what will it take? Because striking wise, she might be the best ball striker, serve and return, on the tour. What will it take for her to move up to that spot and dethrone Arena?

Спасибо.

Alvin Owusu (42:16.287)
Let's let's let's kind of go back to the idea what does it mean to be number one in the world? And this is why I think Arena is a perfect match for the number one ranking spot. Because the number one ranking spot is a reflection of consistency over the course of 52 weeks, right? Which means you not only need to be able to manage yourself through the highs and lows of your performance, your tennis level, but you also have to manage that across different surfaces, right?

And then you also have to manage that across being a professional tennis player in a very in today's world, right? And being a young woman or in their the late twenties, they are full grown women at this point. But like there's a lot that goes into being a professional tennis player. And all of that, it's not how well you hit the forehand or how well you hit the serve or how well you return. That those are table stakes. Putting it all together over fifty-two weeks is what leaves you with the number one ranking. And so I think

Back to your point about Arena's superhuman or mutant ability, underlying mutant ability is her consistency. Her consistency is the reason why she's number one in the world. I think for anyone to usurp her, her consistency will need to come down and theirs will need to come up, or she needs to not be there and allow for inconsistency to be the norm. But if you have someone who is will who is going to be consistent all the time.

Torrey Hawkins (43:34.296)
Well, sure.

Alvin Owusu (43:45.097)
then that is the ceiling that you're gonna keep bumping up against to. I think what you're seeing out of Elena is normal. Also we're talking about a span a part of the year where she's on her worst surface, right? Clay Clay Court would be I'm not she's not bad on it, but it is her worst surface. Fair? Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (43:57.346)
Right. Right.

I I looked up just because you were saying it because I remember I and I think the men are still on the rolling sixteen, eighteen week or whatever, best of that. And to your point the women are the fifty-two, right? But best your the four slams, the best six of the one thousands, your best non-1000, and the next best seven from your you know, one thousands, five hundreds, two fifties, and so on. So the

To your point, you gotta put in a good body work. You know what I mean? One tournament does not make does not make a number one in the world. And with that criteria, it's easy to understand why Arena is still number one in the world, right? And but to my and to my thing, and I think I'm putting I'm now putting the question back to you a little more succinctly now. What will it take for a Leonard or Bacchina to have more success?

Alvin Owusu (44:43.659)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (45:00.942)
Throughout the rest of the year.

Alvin Owusu (45:03.723)
She probably just needs to nail the peaks. Like she's gonna have the lows, right? She's gonna have the lows. I think that's the and I I I always go back keep going back to Arena here, but when Arena doesn't do well, it's the final of a grand slam. It's the right. It's like it's it

Torrey Hawkins (45:19.116)
Her bad tournament is is not is not winning it, but she lost in the same as in the finals. You're you're right.

Alvin Owusu (45:23.08)
Right. Yeah. I mean she had a bad spell in on the clay course season. She had a clay course season. Like w flat out. Like let's see if she can if she can remedy things here and maybe, you know, final or or better in one of these warm-up events and then make it to the semifinals of Wimbledon. And then you take a step back and you go, Okay, that's that's that's that's that's fine. We haven't won a grand slam this year, but she's close, right? I think that is what it would take for I don't think Elena's gonna get to one in the world unless she nails the peaks, right? She won the Australian Open.

Great. She finaled Indian Wells. She semi finaled Miami. But we've kind of been now we're kinda trending trending backwards on the on the clay court. I'll give I'll give her the I'll give her somewhat of a pass on the clay court, but like if she pops a final at Wimbledon, that's that's where she's gonna have to like make her money. Like it's it's she's going to have to peak her peak's going to have to be high. And I think that's how like if she's gonna make a pat make r a true run at one of the world, like

Torrey Hawkins (46:02.008)
Yeah, direction.

Torrey Hawkins (46:17.314)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (46:22.569)
She's gonna have to win two slams in a year and probably two Masters one thousands. Yeah, or four or four three or four finals. Like yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (46:26.24)
And one thousand, a hundred percent. And and that that's what that's what saying. Right. Right. Either or both, right? And and to your point, and that's what I'm saying. And here to four, that hasn't happened, right? And so and and with that, with the way you just mentioned that, she might be doing well. She might be she might be floating off the off the slam, the WTA final and all that as to why she's so high right now, right? So, you know, that if if that were the case, you know, she may not

She may not duplicate that toward, you know, as I I could not I it's a fair bet to say she could replicate it, but not necessarily double it. In other words, two slams, right? Four four or five one thousands. That's gonna be that's tough sledding for her, at least here to four for what she showed.

And I think that's and that's why hence why she's two. So no, I I I it's a it's a tough I'm telling you, numerically there's a reason why you know Arena is where she's at, but I still feel Alana just because of what she brings to table and how she matches up to said number one, right? This is why I feel like she's got the best chance of the rest of them to dethrone. And by the way, she's only a thousand points behind Arena, you know, and at current at current numbers right now.

So, you know, that that could be a that could make for a very solid it makes Wimbledon be a very pivotal point, right, for both of You know what I mean?

Alvin Owusu (47:53.278)
Wimbledon's import Wimbledon is important. It's important. And if you look back at last year, right, we had four different Grand Slam winners, right? Which means everyone's got if you're gonna finish one in the world, you're gonna need to have a Grand Slam in your pocket, right? Effectively. But okay, if you have four different women who had a Grand Slam in their pocket, okay. That that kind of negates equals it out for everyone else, for those four. Okay. Arena finished well ahead of everyone because she tagged so many of those Masters one thousands, right? So and then

Torrey Hawkins (48:03.958)
A hundred percent.

Alvin Owusu (48:21.18)
also the ones that she the Grand Slam she did not win. She finaled two of them, Sammy the other. So like like that's the that is the body of work that you need to put together. If you're not gonna win two slams, you need to be in at least like three three finals, right? Like so, but that's that's kinda where we are right now. So it's I mean Anna Samova Anna Samova pulled a Paulini, right? She's like okay, back to back finals. That gets you there. That gets you in the top five. but she also won

Torrey Hawkins (48:34.648)
Two files. Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (48:40.674)
Yeah. I get it. And it's

Alvin Owusu (48:50.76)
two masters one thousands last year and she won one in one in Asia, one in Middle East. So like she sh put together a really, really good year. but did not win one. So like now because she didn't defend, I think it was Doha or whatever, and you know, we've got the summer, she's got a big summer ahead of her. but about Elena, Elena's gonna have to she have to win another one. Like she's win another one. And win one is her best chance probably.

Torrey Hawkins (49:12.546)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, I I think so. The way the way she strikes and with her serve and and and stature, no a hundred percent.

Alvin Owusu (49:20.395)
Fewer distractions too. Like it's probably not gonna be the Australian I not gonna be US. Like US is a it's a just shit show. And like if she has problems with things off court as is, like, don't don't bring those problems to New York. It's it it's a powder keg of all of of distractions. But like maybe at maybe at SW nineteen where like it's just kind of like it's a little it's a little more it's a little Yeah, it's its own little world. It's very relaxed. It's it's it's

Torrey Hawkins (49:36.575)
Really?

Torrey Hawkins (49:43.288)
It's own enclave, isn't it? It's its own

Yeah, both important part.

Alvin Owusu (49:49.222)
And she's won there before. I think that's what it takes. I think that's what it takes for her. speaking of of former Greenstime champions, Coco Golf. Okay. We're we're here now. Coco as of today, she lost to Paula Bedosa. You watched a bit of that match. but if we start to look at Coco's year

Torrey Hawkins (49:53.024)
I I yeah.

Alvin Owusu (50:15.23)
Some people say it's never with Coco, it's it's she's never as high as you think and never as low as you think. I think I stole that from from from the tennis podcast. but you're you're probably feeling the way about Coco that I feel about Iga. Things are pointed in the direction that you that you feel good about. Why why why is that why is that your your position right now?

Torrey Hawkins (50:39.606)
It's my position because those same skills are finally starting to fire. And that was to me always the weak link. And it actually caused her to play a different style that I didn't really feel. I felt that that the style was limiting. Now here's what I would also tell you, Alvin, and this would go for Ega as well. We were just talking about Arena not having a plan a plan B or B game. What you now have is both Ega.

And Coco will now have a B game. They will and they have the ability with their youth, relatively speaking Obs Riga, but obviously clearly for for Coco, that they now will have the ability to upgrade with an A game.

And so what I like about what she's doing now is that she the serve looks great, the forehand is looking great. She needs to start to trust it, use it and go for the shots and feel comfortable enough to go for the shots when she can, not revert back to playing counterpunch, counterpunish tennis, hoping to get ran, right? Because especially first week of a Wimby, you're not.

As as fast as she is, you know, she's not Venus Williams 6'263 that can just cover the court with three strides and hit down the line passing shots on you anytime she needs to. And so I feel like she needs to trust the serve, she needs to trust the forehand, the backhand is still all day. I'm positive I'm very bright on her because those same things that I was bellyaching for a while are now addressed. And if the only thing is for her to get comfortable with said weapons, I think we're in good shape. So that's

That's why I am, as you say, bullish on Miss On Miss Golf. And I and by extension, I would say the same thing for for for Iga because of that. And the B game to me would help her, maybe not in the nets. I don't see her dominating in the next four to six. I certainly say she could win one, if not more, of the next four through six. But after that, and once our current champion may, you know, may may tip the cap, so to speak, I could see.

Torrey Hawkins (52:49.55)
Coco then being well served to then have a really nice run coming into her prime, right? A as at that at that point in time.

Alvin Owusu (53:00.618)
Okay. That's fair. I I I still land on the side of Coco is twenty two years old. She she's twenty two. Okay. Two slams in the bag. She's real famous. She made a lot of money. It's pretty much all no, no, I'm just saying it's all upside here. Like all she has to do is work on her game and continue to get better as a tennis player. Yeah, I'm I

Torrey Hawkins (53:08.077)
Exactly.

Torrey Hawkins (53:18.222)
Are you are you watching the hunger? Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (53:27.059)
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And and you will get better. She's gotten better.

Alvin Owusu (53:32.405)
I'm with you. I I'm with you. I I I I like the math of the the same way I go, like, okay, if Irina Sabalenka is twenty eight years old and the prime for a female tennis player is usually somewhere between twenty four and twenty seven, okay, she's been number one in the world for this is year number three. Okay, the math the math says she should be she should be that that point of like you think she's standing still, she's yes, she's starting her descent. Okay. Then the math that same math goes, Okay, if twenty four through twenty seven is your peak

Torrey Hawkins (53:52.022)
Approaching up sure.

Alvin Owusu (54:02.152)
And I have a woman who is twenty two and already has already won two slams and already been two in the world. Yeah, and you can see the Yeah. And without a complete game. She did that without a complete game, right? So it's for her to hit her peak in two years, three years, all she has to do is continue to get better at the things that she's starting to show us over the last four months, I would say. okay.

Torrey Hawkins (54:09.422)
I am with the house money.

Torrey Hawkins (54:20.514)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (54:31.688)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (54:34.316)
Like it. I like it a lot. And and as I say, trending in the right direction, momentum's going the right direction. you know, today's match to me, I think there's a a tough matchup there. Paula Bedosa. She before she was hurt, Paula was was beating Coco pretty good. You know what I mean? Up up almost two years ago. That's a that's a tough matchup. I think Alina's Vidalina actually saw the same thing and watched some of the tape of that match, and I think they actually played fairly similar of Alina and

Paula, so that match is more of a matchup issue. But I really feel good about Coco's upside. I feel good about her upside here. I think I think if she started to really really trust

She's got great returns. She volleys better than we we forget she was top in the world in doubles before she before she won a slam, right? Before she was, so she's got the all-court game, she's got the passing shot, she's got the speed. She's taller than you think. So I think this, if there's a tournament that she could come, you're hard to say a two-time Grand Slam champ is gonna come out of nowhere. But if there was a tournament for a girl like her to come through and just absolutely surprise you, relatively speaking, surprise you, this would be the one. And I would say, you know, she just has.

the returns and now the serve that can actually help her be a full more or less a a no holes type of player in a in a in a in in in a top five where she's she's been in that mix with holes so to me I I only see her going her going forward and so you know that's I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna continue to to be you know to be yeah

Look forward to her to her continued ascent.

Alvin Owusu (56:15.347)
Yeah, I think that and I think that's fair. I think that's right. I don't know how fast I have to take last year's last year's Wimbledon performance and kinda throw it out because of her coming off the back of winning French Open. most players win the French Open or finish the French Open, stay in Europe, maybe get directly to you know, where the warm up events are, get comfortable on grass.

warm up event or two and then go into Wimbledon. Coco won Wimbledon I mean won French Open last year, left Europe, came back to the States, had a ton of promo to do for after winning the French Open, and then went back to Europe. So like, you know, that all not only are you missing time on surface to adapt, but you're also like flipping time zones ain't it's not easy, right? Like you just you're back and forth. I I'm almost I say that to say I'm willing to

kind of dismiss her performance at Womanland last year and and and and kind of take this one out of its face. but we we we shall see. A a a draw, the right draw can can can open up your world. The wrong draw can ruin your can ruin your time. You ruin your time. And that's and that's and that speaks directly to the depth of the women's game right now, right? Like you're gonna have someone like Donna Vecich who's gonna be probably just outside of being seated. You're gonna have someone like like Barbora Kurchikova.

Torrey Hawkins (57:27.118)
Oof.

Alvin Owusu (57:43.315)
former Wimbledon champion who is not going to be C A, like just kind of like floating in the in the in the sphere here. You've got X amount of time. she was in the final so she was in the final of one of those tournaments, maybe her talking her talking Bosch, and pulled out but not due to injury, due to illness. She was sick.

Torrey Hawkins (57:51.99)
Is Mark?

Torrey Hawkins (58:05.742)
Okay. She's always she's always nasty on the grass. I mean, you know what I mean? So there's there's a lot of players that have, you know, obviously Paula playing some decent ball right now. You know, there's a lot of players we can't we cannot knock out Alina Svetelina right now, who's playing who's playing some absolute ball right now. obviously and and Marta Kostic. So there's

Alvin Owusu (58:09.031)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (58:27.422)
I feel like there are more players we're speaking of now than we were speaking of before. And the previous haven haven't gone anywhere. You know what mean? So it's almost like it's just it's just continuing to heat and and superheat, so to speak. And it's just cut it's just turning over and turning over. And it's it makes for some great matches, you know what I mean? And I'll I'll I'll be honest. I'm I'm looking forward to it. So and and that leads us to your

Alvin Owusu (58:52.893)
Yeah, I'll

Torrey Hawkins (58:56.098)
To I know you're your your cherry on top.

Alvin Owusu (58:59.677)
Who who who would that be? What what what is my chair on top? No, I'm not ready yet. I'm not ready yet. I'm still not ready to talk about Serena yet. I we'll we'll get there. We'll get there. the the the rest of that group. I I feel like after Mira after Mira won the French Open and Alexander Zverev won the French Open, right? These are kind of two things like you know, Mira has been a top player for the last two years.

Torrey Hawkins (59:03.352)
Serena Williams. you're not really okay. All right. All right. All right.

Alvin Owusu (59:25.5)
She she won one. that's cool. Like it's it's early, but maybe it's right on time. I don't know. Zverev's been a top player forever and he finally won one. Okay. How who feels like the player that's left to win one? Like who hasn't won one? And it's Jessica Pagula. Like Jessica Goula is like the the next best player who has not won a Grand Slam on either side, men's or women's tour. And I start to think about her and

I I I don't know that I feel like one's coming, but maybe

Torrey Hawkins (59:58.926)
She'll she'll need for sure, right? Is she capable? 1,000%. Will she need some help? 1,000%. Just because the other people that are there are just that depth means it's a much tougher climb. You know what I mean? This is not climbing Stone Mountain right here. This is K2 and El Capitan and and you know, and Yosemite. This is we're we're dealing with the big time right now, you know. So I say it to say.

I think she should if she finds herself in a draw situation like Mira, absolutely. But if she has to if she has to be the one with the axe and chop down the trees ahead of her, I mean she she could l she could legitimately, if everything goes to the chalk, goes to the to the red ink next to the names, there could be three, there could be three

seeds ahead of her that she would have to take down to hold up the trophy. And that's that's that's tough Sledic. You know what I mean? And she has great returns and she and she don't I the grass is funny. I think the grass kind of because of her good returns and her ball striking, she doesn't have to move phenomenal, right, on the grass. You know, she just has to return well and be on balance. And I feel like, you know, I I I certainly feel I'm with you. She could. I I'm just

That's all I'll say. I and you know I love JPEG. I just feel like there she'll need she she'll need a little bit of help. Help from the draw, help from others in her side of the draw to help maybe lift help her load be a little less heavy, you know, to to truly have a shot, you know, to hoist the hardware.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:36.983)
let me be clear. I don't I wasn't saying I think she's gonna win Wimbledon. I do I do not think she's gonna win no no I do not think it's gonna be Wimbledon.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:40.462)
She's left. She's due. All that I I know what you're saying.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:45.735)
Yeah, yeah. If if she's if she's gonna pop one, I think it's gonna be the US Open. Like I think that's the one that she'll win. It will not be Wimbledon. I don't I don't think the the skill set required to do well on grass for seven matches is something that is it fits cleanly within her. I feel like you need to be able to step up and quickly snap off points like the ability to like pull winners from inside the court and that's not that's not the JPEG yeah, and surf big, that's not the JPEG recipe.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:13.378)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:14.001)
Unless she gets an Iga draw, like like Iga did last year, then maybe

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:17.142)
She'll need help from the draw. Could she is all I'm saying? I think yes. And again, if if if it just comes down to her holding serve and returns for a thousand percent, I just feel like the trees, unless unless her axe is very sharp and the tree is, you know, is not, I feel like it's just gonna be tough, tough sledding for her.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:35.165)
Okay. Okay, now we're gonna do it. Now we're gonna now we're gonna do it. I think I think the Anna the Amanda Anasimova of things I can it it is what it is. Mira, she's gotten a a lot of love on this pod in the last week or so. I will say that Jen can win. I'm a I am concerned about my girl. Like when when you come back from injury and you can't and you can't you the protected rankings, you don't you don't jump off the page with Like you get you get y

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:37.918)
All right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:46.882)
Very good.

Alvin Owusu (01:03:03.293)
Grigor Dimitrov is is is down here in the doldrums and you know things can go south quickly on the Pro Tour, regardless of your talent level. So I I really, really hope because she's one of those ones that can contend for slams, but I would hate to see her like having to qualify to get into Grand Slams, which is where we're we're pretty close to getting there right now. Okay, Serena Williams. This is the this is the Serena Williams portion of the of the podcast.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:24.878)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:31.414)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (01:03:32.329)
these these two brown-skinned men have not spent any words on Serena Williams and her comeback in the last month. We're gonna do it right now. Okay. So Serena is back. It's a thing. It's kind of strange. I'll be honest with you. I watch it on TV and I'm like, what video game am I watching where you just pull out a Hall of Famer, like you put in a code or something, and out walks like Serena Williams? It's very

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:40.844)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:58.734)
Exactly. Exactly.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:00.784)
It's very strange. Like I'm I am Serena is forty four. I'm forty three. I was in juniors when Serena was like a just a mythical thing and then like I'm in college and she's winning Grand Slans. It's like I've I've been there with Serena. Like and we we are you know, we are in a small Atlanta tennis circle where her coach now is the brother of one of our former guests. So Jameer Jenkins is Jameer Hans Jenkins is

The is the is the man on the bag for Serena Williams right now and it's it's just on one hand it's really, really weird. I'll say that. Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (01:04:40.236)
Yeah. That's a that's a good way of putting it. unusual to be sure. and and I have to say, I think it's good for tennis. I think it's great for them for the crowd. I think it's great for the terminal organizers to appreciate and acknowledge her worth, what she's meant to the game, and

As as we talked right before this podcast, I feel like for many, many years, especially for American tennis, she kept American tennis off of life support. You know, because of what she did, her style, her dominance, her we talk about arenas consistency. How about winning at times multiple slams a year and do it for the better part of 15 years? I mean, but that let's let's let's not let's not forget who we are talking about. The queen is the queen for a reason.

I will tell you, having said that, at 44, I will always say, Father, in this case, Mother Time, is undefeated. Do I feel that she is looking good in the best shape of her life, better than she looked when we last saw her? 1000%. She looks great. She and it's really good to see her back out there. I'm I guess I'm a little bit, you know.

I'm a little bit, I'm holding my breath a little bit because I have I have the vision of my of of my vision of Serena when she was at her absolute top. And I and the selfish part for me, the fan, doesn't want to see that image, that memory.

Parnished in in any way, shape, or form. I remember when Matt Michael was coming back and he was coaching the wasn't he coaching slash owning the Hornets and he was out there playing and some of the practices and the scrimmages and he was shooting that darn fade away from you know from from 30 feet on the sideline and the and I'm like, it's not the same Mike. You know what I mean? And and part of it, it was it was just it was it was tough to watch, not because you don't realize he's old enough. Of course he's old now. You know how good he is, how good he how good he was.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:54.668)
But I the the fan in me wants to remember that, not necessarily the now. And and I realize in even saying that that's very selfish of me. And I'm so happy for her to make this choice and to make, to be back on court again and

her her both her little ones can see her and and and that i'm sure it's a big deal. I I have no idea what what her goals are and whatever they are. She God bless her for it. And she's and she's she's entitled to do whatever she wants to do. She can she is the queen. I'm just wondering

I'm wondering the longevity of said move. I'm w I'm wondering, you know, what what the expectations, if there are any, that are there. And just, you know, are we are we is this, you know, what w what are we are are we just dipping our toe in the water to say we could, if if in which case, hey, even better. You know what I mean? If it's much more than that, I'm not so sure.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:51.048)
Okay. All right. I'm not I'm not gonna be as as buttoned up about the subject as as as Mr. Hawkins has been here. I'm gonna I'm gonna look at it. I look at it like this, right? I there's a couple things here and I might go around a bit, so bear with me. I use the same thing we talked about with the top of the women's game being both wide and deep right now. It's also a function of the t the total depth of the women's, let's say top fifty, right? They're all really good, right?

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:52.63)
Right.

I'm just I'm just saying. I'm just saying. I I got

Alvin Owusu (01:08:21.202)
But no one's great. Th there are a few a handful who are closer to the top five who have peaks of greatness, right? But between ten and forty, you could probably toss them up in a hat, right? But not great. I think that's one thing. Two, I use Venus Williams as a proxy. When you ask, like, okay, how is this gonna go? Right? Venus hasn't Venus has won one match, like

She beat Peyton Carns in DC last year, and has not won a match since then. Like just wild card hen, first round out, like over and over and over and over.

But look at that Peyton Cerns match. Like why did she beat Peyton? Peyton was a deer in the headlights. Venus is Venus is a Hall of Famer. Venus ain't Serena. Serena is a that's a whole that's a whole force of nature coming at you. not just on the court, but before you get on the court. Like, heaven forbid you draw V you draw Serena Williams in the first round of a grand slam and you know about it four days in advance. Like

We you can't practice for that. Like you can't you can't practice for that. And you have a whole generation of players who have no idea what it's like to play against Serena. Serena has a lifetime of being Serena. She is Serena all the time. Not just on the tennis court, but she is Serena in her real life. She's Serena in a in a in a conference room, right? She is always

Torrey Hawkins (01:09:33.752)
Those to work on the mind a little bit.

Torrey Hawkins (01:09:48.718)
Yep. Yep.

Serena gets two? You Serena?

Alvin Owusu (01:09:56.387)
Exactly. So when I when I think about like her ability to like I I I personally think this is gonna be she's gonna be playing singles. Right. I I have no inside information. I just I know what I I I know what I see and I I don't see someone getting in this in this kind of shape and working this hard and coming on off of like going through drug protocol and all that stuff to screw around and and and play doubles with different partners.

You know, th that's not that's not this is not this come on, we know it's up. She's gonna play singles. Yeah, it could be as soon as Wimbledon. So Wimbledon still has two women's grands two women's wildcards to handout left. It could be Wimbledon. It it will probably definitely be US Open if she's healthy. and if it if it is Wimbledon, it's also probably gonna be a few tournaments before the US Open, right? And I say when I watch her play tennis now, and granted it's only been doubles.

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:27.478)
Those are all matches. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:10:53.957)
But I I say this woman looks like a better tennis player than the last time I saw her, which was four years ago. Right? She can she's moving better. Surfs still looks like a million dollars. she looks ready. She looks ready to go. She looks ready to go. And if she's ready to go and she gets the reps in, I I don't put any limits on her. Do you think do you think if you okay, let me ask you this.

Torrey Hawkins (01:11:02.222)
Yep. Hundred percent.

Alvin Owusu (01:11:23.516)
Let me ask you this. If she went up against let's say I'll give you Alexandra Magdalena Linette's a tough one because Magnalinette's she's she's she's older and she will be less phased. Give me an Alexandria Yala. Okay. What is what is Yala ranked right now? 35 in the world?

Torrey Hawkins (01:11:33.656)
Give me magnifymet.

Alvin Owusu (01:11:50.607)
You think you think you think you think Alexandriala's beating Serena Williams? I don't think so.

Torrey Hawkins (01:11:54.806)
I think Alexander, 33 in the world. I think Alexander Ayala would, like Alexander Ayala does with most people inside the round of 16, would get smoked because Alexander Ayala's game is not yet complete. I see your point, and that's a great example you picked. I feel that Serena for one match, for two sets, two out of three sets.

I will I will raise you. I will see you on the one match. And I will raise you.

Torrey Hawkins (01:12:35.36)
I'm not so sure she will be

As competitive as I would like in a second, certainly not a third round situation with today's pace and speed. That's what and it is it is a concept, it's a consequence of age, time away from the game, etc. etc. It has nothing to do with talent, ball striking, it's simply age.

The aging process, she looks great. I'm not so sure her tennis is looking as great just yet. And I also feel at that while she's so much better shape and looks great. I'm happy for her and for her health. I'm not so sure if the tennis side, though, is there. And anybody who who knows this, it's Serena, who has willed herself through numerous tournaments and varying degrees of health and and and

And being ready for f for various tournaments and has done it for years. So I don't I don't put that part past her at all. I just wonder how I just wonder the recovery. I want and Wimbledon is the perfect tournament for it because it is shorter points, right? It is quicker. It is just pretty much serve and return, which she still can do with the best of them. And she's not gonna run down everything. You don't you don't have to. You can't. It's grass. You know, you'll trip and fall out there. I just

Alvin Owusu (01:13:44.485)
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:13:58.922)
I guess I'm just trying to be very cautious with my expectation, Alvin. And I and and I think that's why you see me, you see buttoned up. fair, fair point. I just love Serena Williams, and I would love to see. Should she win? I say great. If she wins another, I'll I'll I'd be impressed. Not for, you know, I I guess I come from a place of there is nothing to prove, period. So there is no other.

goal or or championship to win. So it's it's in my mind, I guess it that's where I'm at with it. It's like, I don't know, it's it's it that there's that's why I guess I'm so I'm so you know if there was something on the line, right?

This is not Novak trying to get number 25, right? This is not, you know, could he may just eat himself and find himself? This is not that. She's been there, done that, and bought all the soundtracks and there, and she is now the model by which we, male or female, are looking at the term goat.

and and I and I feel if anything, in some in some ways, I feel Novak is trying to replace her as the as the code of both sports. But I and that's why I'm saying it's just there's to me, I'm looking at what is you know, what what do we gain from all this besides, see, I knew I could do it. And if so, hey, even better. You know what I mean? She if anybody deserves it, it's her. I just don't know past that, right?

if there's anything else because she's already blessed us with so much great tennis. There's just, you know, it to me, that's where the level of ambiguity comes in. I'm like, We haven't seen this before. You know what I mean? So that's all.

Alvin Owusu (01:15:45.008)
Well, I I'm not looking at

not looking at past anything right I'm not I'm I'm just taking it as like okay right now she's gonna play one match at a time and in any given match I I just look at random random players do I think she can hang and it's the same way I get to get to get a chance to evaluate Serena Williams the same way I evaluate anybody else. It's like okay can you can you hit with this person? Like can you from a pace standpoint can you hang? check she can she can she can bang with anyone right and then

Torrey Hawkins (01:15:56.814)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:16:02.326)
You're

Torrey Hawkins (01:16:16.333)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:16:17.978)
Can you move with that person? Can you match that person's movement? That's where things start to that's where we are all probably unsure. At the highest level, I give you the there are but there are very few women who can bang and move. That's the thing. Like that is a that is a very limited skill set. Like the that that goes from a when I say a deep top twenty, right, but when we start talking about those who can actually hit big and move well, it shrinks pretty fast.

Right, pretty fast. like even someone like a man Annasomoba is not the best mover, right? Right? Ega's a great mover, hits the ball well enough. arena is the combination of all. Like arena hits big, moves well. JPEG hits big enough, moves well enough, but not great at either. Clean hits extremely clean, which makes up for any like that that gets her effective effective impact is the same, right?

Torrey Hawkins (01:16:48.11)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:17:01.72)
As well. Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (01:17:15.83)
Right. I I would I would I would push back on the terminology, but I would a hundred percent compared to the top. Yes. Hundred percent.

Alvin Owusu (01:17:19.983)
Yeah. Sure, sure. Coco Coco maybe on one wing does not hit as big quite yet consistently, but over indexes on being a an outstanding mover, right? So I when I look at the matchups like that, it's okay, well Serena Serena can hit with anyone. Can she move with anyone? She probably can hit and move with the best of the best, but n the rest of can't hit with her. There's that. And then she'll be w she can probably

At this, what I've seen so far, she could probably move well enough for the ones that she can out hit.

Torrey Hawkins (01:17:56.206)
for the for for the first round maybe too. And and I agree with that wholeheartedly. You you won't see me throwing any level of shade at the Queen, you know. That that ain't happening and and nor it I guess to my point, you know, i i it's I remember this funny saying one time, Sko we were determined, he made this funny comment. Why we even talking about this? It was such a funny comment. Like like it was like it was it wasn't even worth

It wasn't even worth debating, you know what I mean? It was what what what the and that and he kind of scroll, if you listen to this, you'll you'll remember what I'm talking about. But it was such a neat, it was such a it was such such a very concise and and simple, you know, like I can't even believe we're arguing we we're we're even discussing this, you know. So that's my point with Serena. This is there is every superlative has already been used, you know what I mean? So I I I think part of my curiosity, which I think what you're getting at, part of my curiosity is saying

And how good is 44-year-old Serena, right? Is she is she 20 in the world level, right? Is she 15? Is she 25? Is she 55? Right? Who knows, right? I I think that's where this, if I can kind of guess where you're saying, is going with this. Is she still hitting that ball? I have seen top players hit balls with their the next person they're they're coaching, right? I saw Saffin hit with Rubilev, right? I saw

You know, Denara hit balls with Potapov. I I've seen I at at various other tournaments I've seen some of the greats hit with McEnroe still hits a good ball. I mean, in Max 60 something. So we're we ain't talking. I saw a whole I saw my main man, not my main man, but South African dude, kind of short, top five in the world back in the day. I'm I can't I can't believe I'm forgetting his name. hit with one of the juniors at a tournament I was at, you know, probably two or three years ago. And

God, he was hitting the ball clean. his name, his name will come back to me. And he hadn't played, he played in the early 80s. I mean, this brother is still smacking the ball as big as day. It's not about the ball striking. Of course not. We're talking about the movement. We're talking about how sharp it is at that level, Alvin, at that level, these guys, these players are phenomenal. I mean, it's not even close. It's just now you're with other phenomenal and you're with younger phenomenal.

Torrey Hawkins (01:20:22.356)
And and I just part of me just kind of I see a little bit of the the cars three where you know you know what I mean where where where lightning is still lightning, but man, you know what I mean? I'm just I'm just wondering. I'm just wondering is is it is it enough? And I'm looking forward to watching like you are.

Alvin Owusu (01:20:35.846)
But the

Alvin Owusu (01:20:41.424)
Therein lies the difference though. We're not talking about phenomenal versus phenomenal. We're talking about they're pretty good against the goat. That's the difference. Like so has she come down far enough for them to reach up high enough? That's that's the

Torrey Hawkins (01:20:55.992)
Right. That I think that that's and that's what remains to be seen.

Alvin Owusu (01:20:59.674)
That's the documentary. Like not less the we can like there's also the like she's got herself she's got a a crew traveling with her filming this documentary, right? So that's also a thing. So you can also look at it from the other standpoint of like, is she just getting herself into acting shape? Like is she just getting herself to to point where she's in good enough shape to play Serena Williams on a tennis court? Like, there's also that too. because it would look terrible on on film if she if she effectively

Torrey Hawkins (01:21:27.904)
And she should play herself in her own ro she should play herself in her own document.

Alvin Owusu (01:21:28.194)
was a worse version of her twenty twenty two self. Right. Yeah. Right. She just needs she just needs to be a a decent facsimile of herself in order for this documentary to go off to go off fine. Which check. Yeah. Yeah. And her her the doubles match with with with Vicky where she she went like ace service winner ace to finish the match. It's like that's what I'm talking about. Like that's that's the stuff right there.

Torrey Hawkins (01:21:37.302)
Right. Right. Right. Did you get that shot too? Did you get that shot? You got to you got that for white okay, we're good.

Torrey Hawkins (01:21:53.772)
We know she can still do that.

Alvin Owusu (01:21:56.186)
But yeah, if Carlos is out st still for a little while, thank you, Serena. I'm I'm here to watch. I need something else to keep me keep me occupied. if I don't know who's gonna win my women's grand slams and we're we're it's it's center against the field and the weather, fine. We'll we'll take we'll take this little this little side quest while we've got it. So

Torrey Hawkins (01:22:14.84)
Yep. Hey. And and we're blessed to have her. I'm gonna say that one more time.

Alvin Owusu (01:22:20.059)
Yeah, it's fun. It's fun. I think we've gone on long enough. We'll put let's put a pin in it there. I'm Alvin. That story. Best three. We're out.