Alvin Owusu (00:00.916)
And welcome to another episode of the Best of Three Podcast. I'm Alvin, that's Tori, and we're back from our little it's a it was a short hiatus, but with the with the World Cup coming to an end, I've been thinking about soccer and tennis kind of hand in hand. Obviously, TH soccer is the world's most played sport, but I think the numbers would bear out that tennis actually globally is right behind soccer. maybe not here in the United States, but it's a global sport and a lot of people play it.

Torrey (00:26.376)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (00:30.534)
here in the United States, which is where we are, so I'm gonna I'm gonna kinda speak from this standpoint. after the US men's team lost in the I think it was around a sixteen of the of the World Cup, there were a lot of a lot of attention was put on what American soccer needs to do to kind of close the gap with the rest of the world. And I would say a lot of the finger pointing was towards our youth.

programs and how we handle youth soccer in the United States. And you know, I heard a lot of a lot of things. And my kids are young. Your kids are are older. You've been through the soccer process. I'm now looking at it for the first time. And a lot of the emphasis is or a lot of the fingers are being point pointed there. It my my biggest takeaway was that out of out of all the things that people are calling out, I never really hear anything about the

culture of s soccer within a particular nation, right? Like I like we were talking ahead of time. If you're in South America or if you're in Europe or your my p my family's from Ghana and Africa, like I've I've seen and when I was a younger kid, I played soccer in the streets barefoot with with other kids in my parents in the town that my parents are from. And it is part of the culture there. It is not something where the the parents put you in the car and then drive you to the soccer field and you play two or three times a week and you've played a lot of soccer. It's it's

Torrey (01:32.187)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (01:58.772)
it is synonymous with going outside and just being a kid in these soccer crazed nations. It's a sport of the people, right? whereas here it's very it's very formal formalized, very almost privatized in a lot of places. But like a lot of our sports, and that's the kind of the part I want to come I kinda come around to is that when you it got me thinking about US tennis, right? And how we train our players a kind of a specific way.

Torrey (02:02.374)
Sure.

Torrey (02:10.159)
Yeah. Yeah.

Like a lot of our sports, unfortunately.

Alvin Owusu (02:27.051)
I would say we spend a lot of time on how to hit shots as opposed to maybe less time on how to play the sport. Yeah, so today is kind of an an open ended conversation about, you know, what does and you thinking about the soccer aspect of it, like what could we maybe borrow from other countries or what what are we n not necessarily nailing when it comes from a training champions for the for the professional ranks of of tennis?

Torrey (02:32.72)
how to play the actual game. Sure.

Torrey (02:55.298)
Yeah. It's it's I've got a lot of thoughts on it. I'll try I I'll try to I'll try to strike my thinking in a in a in a l in a w in way that you can follow. Number one reason I think soccer and I'm going I'm going out on limb here because I know a little bit about soccer, but just enough to be dangerous. My kid played

Alvin Owusu (03:00.332)
I hope so.

Torrey (03:24.972)
I follow he follows soccer a lot to this day. And I'm going to, you know, extrapolate, right, for for tennis, which I know pretty well.

Soccer isn't getting the USA's best athletes. As I know tennis is not. There's no, that's a whole different conversation and unto itself because I feel other sports either A got there first, B are more popular. C have a they have a I hate to call it a pathway. All of them have a pathway. Have a

lucrative destination in the pathway or at the end of the pathway, should you make it that that person, those persons, those teams now become what all the little kids look up to and want to be as they're growing up. Whether they never make it or not, they know that that is the path that they were headed to or are going. So I think those are the first couple of highlight reels. We're not getting the best athletes because another sport got there first. They are

Alvin Owusu (04:11.959)
Okay.

Torrey (04:35.616)
a little bit more accessible potentially for I say potentially I know it's a lot more exp accessible the other sports are. And their destination a little more lucrative, therefore more popular, therefore more you know, little kids not going to want to grow up to be Ben Shelton. He's gonna want to grow up to be, you know, Jason Tatum or SGA or s or to the or or or in the football side of things, right? You're gonna wanna grow up to be, you know, that that top running back, that top quarterback, and you know, and and so on and so forth.

I wanna start there I wanna get your thoughts on that because I think that plays into a little bit of the, as you said, of the people where I know baseball, there's a lot of former baseball players, you know, MLB players at at the club where I work. And like you explained soccer, they explain going up playing baseball. Right. And a lot of them lot of those players are from the Caribbean, right? Be it Curaçao, be a Puerto Rico, be it

Alvin Owusu (05:25.101)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Torrey (05:29.739)
Costa Rica, be it, you know, a lot of the islands, you know, in the in the Caribbean and obviously South America. That was just what they did. Of course, they grew up growing up playing baseball. Like I was talking to Javi Lopez, you he's a pitcher for the Giants and others that like play baseball growing up, that's what I did. It's just what they did. You know, so and I and I say that to say so it sounded very similar to what you were describing soccer as, right? I don't know if you can say that with a sport here in the States, Alvin.

You might be from up north, you might say hockey. You might be, right, you might play soccer if you're in the, you know, maybe if you're in in in from Miami or from one of the other, you know, more heavily Latino, you know, based communities. But to be honest, can you really think of a homogeneous sport? If you're from a if you're from a small country town, you're probably playing football, right? you know Texas is huge for for its football there. And so I think it's just a it's just a bit different here in the States that

There may not be one sport and there certainly isn't we're certainly not getting the best athletes for tennis as a result. What what say you?

Alvin Owusu (06:34.029)
I'll I'll I'll go kinda go I'll kinda go backwards, like maybe from a it's probably regional, right? So if you are from, you know, the Minnesotas, places closer to Canada, right? I would imagine pick up hockey is a thing that that gets played a lot, right? Things freeze over or you can kinda get down to the local rink. There's probably a lot of rinks and it's i accessibility kind of gets the barrier to entry becomes a lot lower because everyone's doing it, you can just kinda go do it. understanding that the sport itself is expensive.

Torrey (06:58.441)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (07:03.361)
like the equipment. I would say basketball is probably the closest comp and and the the rest of the world is catching up there or has caught up there, I should say. But the the beauty of basketball is it's it's extremely accessible. You can you can do it in a lot of different variations, right? One on one, two on two, three like whatever, all the way up to you don't necessarily need to be playing five one five full court to be playing basketball and getting better at basketball. there's one part that I do want to push back on is the

Torrey (07:24.383)
Right.

Torrey (07:27.773)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (07:31.958)
And this goes not just for soccer but for for for tennis as well. The part about the best athletes comes up a lot, right? It comes up a lot. And in US culture, we look at we kind of quantify our or qualify our best athletes by bigger, faster, stronger, right? And you add in some agility in there, and maybe you can use Spark if you want to, right? To kind of codify what we mean by athleticism. But I don't

Torrey (07:38.162)
Mm. Yeah.

Torrey (07:53.533)
Yeah.

Torrey (07:57.531)
Right. Right. Adding a adding a metric to what that is.

Alvin Owusu (08:01.069)
Sure, sure. But I don't necessarily think that it is that's the end all be all in soccer. I think it's more of there's more of a genus around what it means to be a good soccer player, to be a a a a part of a good soccer team, a unit that can move and play well together. athletes to be damned because I think if you were if you watch the World Cup, right, we've got athletes like we've got we've got brothers running up and down the sidelines like faster than anyone else in that field, but it like touch is a little less something to be desired at times, right?

You go over to the you go over to the tennis side and I I athleticism to a certain extent, there's a limit to which athleticism in tennis matters, right? You need to be athletic enough. But if you can run a four one forty, like or four two forty, that's not gonna serve you very that's not gonna serve you at all. Difference right, yeah. Like if you're if you run a four two forty or a four nine forty, like

Torrey (08:31.099)
Sure.

Torrey (08:43.207)
Yeah.

Torrey (08:53.594)
Not giving up the pro shot. Right.

Alvin Owusu (08:58.953)
It doesn't matter, of course not that big. Like I'd rather much rather you be better at changing directions. So it's like, I I think the athleticism part gets gets gets that bell gets rung a lot and I'm just like I I think it's more the the accessibility which gets you know, I think this word tennis gets nailed pretty pretty big. in that a lot of the stories you hear, especially with with the Czech women doing so well in Wimbledon, there's been a few different deep dives on what's going on over there, like what's in the what's in the water, what's in the training, what's in the programming there.

Torrey (09:01.644)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (09:28.785)
And by all means, it's or by all accounts, it's like they keep it it's pretty small. Like the the clubs that they have there, and I'm saying clubs in parentheses here are like they're just like they're kind of in your neighborhood, they're extremely affordable, and people kind of do everything in and through the club. It's like you're playing tennis, you're playing Padell, you're you're going to you're doing lunch there. It's like it's kinda like our country clubs here, but it's not not country clubs. It's very

Torrey (09:49.348)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (09:57.279)
accessible and the and they keep it fun. They keep it fun. They keep it light. They had the kids playing games. It's very game based as opposed to skills and drills based until, you know, that that that certain level. So I I wonder how much of it is the way that we try to build tennis players as opposed to the tennis players that we are given, if that makes sense.

Torrey (09:59.854)
Yeah.

Torrey (10:23.406)
W once again, we probably are coming to one of our classic Overton windows. One of the one of my coaches who you know well is from Venezuela. In numerous times talking with with her, she explains to me how growing up that the bus dropped all the kids off at the to your point earlier about and back in the Czech Republic, the local club. At the local club, there's a playground.

There's an area where the kids can play and run. And there's two sports, Alvin. There's a soccer field or two. And there's about eight tennis courts. The kids play tennis or they play soccer. They play on their own a lot. It's not drills per se. Drills are later when the parents can, you know, those kids that wanted to play can stick around and play more. But

The kids play pickup, the kids hit maybe on the wall, the kids can play soccer. A lot of it, as you say, very unstructured, very inexpensive, it's just part of the quote unquote after school care, if you would what we would term as right, is after school care. They're just they're just it's best basically supervised, you know, supervised play, in in terms of but very loosely supervise at that. She says every day, that's where we went.

So you've just picked it up. Now I'm laughing at this. Of course, it's clay courts, right? I'm laughing at the just picked it up because a lot of this is, you know, it's foreign to what most people would think of how to play tennis today. Where I'm going to push back on the better athlete is there are less sports to choose from. So the better athlete is playing one of those two a lot. They're not doing one of 20.

And by so doing, bifurcating the well or the pull the talent pool of kids in the states, you're gonna have six easy sports that might take some of the quote unquote better kids that direction, not the least of which some of these sports, especially nowadays, are monopolizing some of the kids' time, right? Three or four days a week, two games.

Torrey (12:44.863)
And and and we have a game out of town as a travel day. And I hear these coaches talk all the time. And I'm like, man. A, that's why you know we were those better kids are going that direction for this conversation. But for me as a parent, I'm also thinking that's why these kids are getting burnout, that's why they're getting these overuse injuries. These kids are starting to specialize by shoo, by the tender age of seven or eight years old. And I'm like, wow, that's God, that's early. So I mentioned it to you from that standpoint, the better young hotshot kid.

that has an arm is already been picked by that baseball team. The quick little fast kid that's a little bunny rabbit. I think he's just the little water buggy. He's just so fast, so quick. He's already been snagged up by that soccer team. You know, the kid that's pretty strong, pretty fast, is probably playing Pop Warner football and so on and so forth. The kid that's pretty tall, got got a you decent, you know, decent size on, is probably playing basketball and so on. So I say it to say the kid, the other sports got there first or

Kids got in that situation first. As a result, you tend to get the next best kid, the fifth best kid. Sometimes the 20th best kid is one playing tennis, and now you enter in accessibility, means, as well as the ability to throw some lessons behind that, and you might be, Alvin, at 20 or further out for getting a kid to that level, going up against in some cases.

Not the same talent level of athlete across the net. So that's why I push back. And again, I I like the conversation. I like when we don't agree. This is good stuff. And I don't think, but I don't think it happens purposefully. I really think the other sports have more to do with drawing that kid. And then thus as things are going these days, you just tend to specialize, unfortunately, because everybody else is specializing.

Alvin Owusu (14:35.852)
Okay, that's fair. And it's not that we don't necessarily agree. I I I think that it's it's not that we disagree. I think we maybe just see it from two different perspectives. And then they might end up being in the same lane. Let's see let's see where we get to. I remember some years ago, many, many years ago, you once t we were having a conversation and you told me something along the lines of America's next champion will not come from a three car garage home, right?

Torrey (14:49.364)
Good. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (15:04.932)
And I I I've never forgotten that, especially when I think about all the players that have you know, are the best players in our sport, the internationally in our sport. They all seem to come from it's not a take good athlete, throw money and coaching at it and you end up getting, you know, Yannick Center or or or Carlos Acaras or or Arena Sabalinka, whatever, whatever. It's we always talk about like with center and and with Sabalinka we're talking about their other back.

Right, their other athletic background, like center and his skiing. Novak's similar. Sabalinka and her, you know, her father was a boxer, right? Similar to Agassiz's father. So like yeah. So it's it's I I feel like the way that we go about it, and I think maybe what you're talking about is the very beginning. Like, well, okay, which which players are showing up to the local club to play tennis? not necessarily the leftovers, right? We are not the leftovers, but there is a

Torrey (15:44.69)
Andre. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (16:04.837)
you maybe you would have liked to had a little more athletic background, more w more well rounded athletic background before you get these players. But I still feel that there is something to be said about also the also maybe the coaching as well. Coaches in the United States are very well compensated for the work that, you know, the work that is done. thus making it harder for for people to afford

Torrey (16:11.154)
Sure. Sure.

Torrey (16:31.282)
Two a two excess. Sure, sure. Double edged sword. For sure. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (16:32.315)
Yeah, for for people to to access that coaching. it's necessary. Like if you really want to go somewhere with tennis, right? You need to be able to hit the ball properly. Right. There is some insider information that is definitely required once you get to a certain point. But it's also kind of similar when you get started. There is no it very rarely do you see a like the situation you mentioned with our our our Venezuela friendly. We just drop off and let the kids run around and run around and play.

Torrey (16:40.934)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (17:01.989)
so and then I'll kind of juxtapose that to some of the things we've been hearing about, you know, parts in places in Europe where coaches are, you know, they're all kind of like within a system at that club and they they stay there. It's not overly expensive. They kind of do it because they love it. Not just because they love it, they do love it. I'm not saying that that is a differentiator. It's the competition structure is very much so different. how does that how does that play into this conversation?

Torrey (17:16.465)
Right.

Torrey (17:30.97)
Think I think it's twofold, and I think it's actually a larger conversation about sports in in America in general. the more we are to democratize. I'm sure that after school care situation was somehow born off of all the parents that either joined or were part of that neighborhood/slash club, right? I'm sure that whole club was sponsored, supported, right, paid for by said residents in that area, right? We're not talking about the slums.

of Caracas what we're talking about. Decent decent area town, obviously. And and they have a tennis club, right? And and on top of that, they weren't the only ones, right? There was there was every neighborhood or community had something very similar. So I think that goes to the to the the culture and the setup. Speaking of the culture itself, they also followed tennis. Tennis was very popular, those things was much like soccer was and is. What was striking to me was was the recognition that

Carlos Alcaraz got in this in the game in Spain. I mean, everybody not only knows who he is, right? But he was as much of a top fan and top recognized player in Spain as as Jamal was. So I see that to say you also have to appreciate the culture recognizes those athletes as well. No different than you and I would be, you know, at Starbucks and you know, we'd run into a, you know, we'd be, you know, we'd be like,

There's Jalen Brunson right there. You know, I mean, just as as we would, you know, it would we would just recognize that person as as anybody else would. Well, I don't know if I would, you know, if I would know Dalagon or whatever, I don't know if I'd recognize him, you know, straight up, you know, at at at my local Starbucks. Not that he goes to my Starbucks. Just saying, I feel like that's also part of it, is that the culture and the accessibility to me all are are kind of one and the same in the sense that you grow up watching it, you grow up following it, you grow up.

you know, being immersed in it. And I don't know if there's too many other sports that are kind of like that internationally. there while they may dabble in, let's just say, let's just say you went soccer, tennis, and let's say you filled in the third blank, right? Maybe you'd throw basketball in there. Maybe you throw hockey if you're from one of the more you know Scandinavian type countries, right? Maybe you throw you wouldn't throw baseball from a Scandinavian country, nor would you throw

Torrey (19:53.887)
skiing or to cross country or downhill in a in a in in a in an Africa country, right? They don't have it there. Don't that's not a local thing. You wouldn't throw marathon running, right? you know, any two where the Kenyans and and the others have and and Ethiopians have it on lockdown, right? You probably wouldn't have too many of those up in from from Finland. So I I say it to say it it is a little regional as well there, but I don't think there's as many either to bifurcate. So

Alvin Owusu (19:58.732)
Right.

Torrey (20:21.426)
In the States, and I think this is a a a bit of a thing that that you cannot while while nuanced to region, I hear your point, it's also you're still taking l let's just say there's a hundred million kids, right? Out of the three hundred million people in the country. But let's just say there's a hundred million. You're still taking, in a sense, each of them to a different in a down a different a different avenue at some point. Some for regional purposes, others just off of accessibility, and a third

The kid that has maybe the has options is probably the kid that's well healed or parents are well healed enough to afford set option. So I just think at that point, what you get left is you get less volume, a little bit of a lesser athlete. Not to say the kids we have are bad athletes. They're just not the quote unquote best athlete because that player, at least at that time, went to a different sport.

earlier for same said reasons. And I think that's where I'm getting at is that the others are quicker to pull, they're quicker to talent ID, they're quicker to just recognize and and provide a pathway for that kid. And then said 10th best player, who's still a darn good athlete, is now having the choice between soccer, tennis, whatever, and his training is now split amongst three. And I think that's more what I'm getting at. They have three, give or take, maybe five.

We have 15, maybe 20. And I think that that's where things get a little dicey. Now you got a parent spinning their wheels, chirping their tires over the speed bumps of the school, getting little Johnny and little Joanna to every little after school activity they can. And I think over there in some of these in some of the countries where it's a little more popular, the options are more limited. They and therefore a little more successful because they are getting a little bit better a little earlier with accessibility to fewer sports. And I don't know.

I can't speak to other countries. I don't want to raising them right, but I just know from a lot of players I talked to from different other coaches I know, they speak to something very similar. Grew up playing tennis, mom and dad played tennis. We had a tennis club in our in our community, played every day, you know, got pretty good, decided to come over to col play play college tennis, which again, another big part of it. I don't know if half our American kids who play tennis growing up realize how much tennis is played overseas.

Torrey (22:43.877)
And how good these players are before they even really started really getting halfway competitive. So I think that's where I'm getting at Alvin. I think over here it's a it's a sport that's learned, it's a sport that's kind of taught, kind of structured, which is good. But you you can I I will say this: it's I don't know how much it would be played if we didn't. And it and so and so and and I go the same with soccer. I think what needs to happen in both sports, if you really are trying to make that be what it is.

Alvin Owusu (22:57.833)
Is it is it good?

Alvin Owusu (23:04.713)
Right, yeah, there's no other there's really no other alternative.

Torrey (23:13.284)
I think we should drill down a little deeper and make those sports a little more accessible. Have it be a little more organic. Now it's a long-term play, right? It's a lot longer ROI, but it's certainly to me a place to start. And that's what I meant by the free-card garage. You and I both heard Noskova talk about her humble beginnings, you know what I mean, trying to get involved in this game. I don't think the centers had a a ton of coin, you know what I mean, going up through the whole through the tennis ranks. That was some calculated decisions being made about the future.

Because some of the means was not as copious as in other families. So I say that to say you can't tell me that some of that same, I'm gonna say, grit over time and a little bit of coming from without did not play a a a hard had did not have a hard play into those players' futures. And again, whether he had a three-car garage, two, I don't know. But it it doesn't sound like that sound like there was two butlers and two maids in the center household. And and and and same with those so

Alvin Owusu (24:10.559)
Right.

Torrey (24:12.539)
Again, we don't know, but I would tell you that it's whether it's from the States or not, I would still say some of that hunger, you know, and and I and I'll reference I reference the the Williams sisters heavily on this coming from Compton. I'm sure they weren't weren't you know, on well, well below, you know, poverty line on on on on the Snap program, but I'm sure they were in Compton, California. And and I've I've been to Compton, you know what mean? There there might be a

nicer block or two in Compton, but it is still Compton, my friend. So Compton I said I'm saying so so you have to you have to prep my uncle lived in Compton for a bit. So you just have to appreciate the fact what I'm saying, you know, it wasn't Thousand Oaks, I'll tell you that. And and I think it wasn't Palo Alto, you know, and I say those things to say different zip clo z very different zip code and therefore a little different aspirations on things. And that's another talk show with the socioeconomic of it, but I just mentioned to say

Alvin Owusu (24:44.035)
and that's compton in the nineties as well. That's that's a ho it's a whole different conversation than it is today, for sure.

Torrey (25:10.102)
I think we've already experienced my saying coming to fruition in some of our past champions and current champions because of said background, having had access, having had some coaching, I think they have and what have they done, Alvin? They have turned our culture toward tennis. And I think that's and that to me is where the overturnal really comes back around full circle. How many more black people got involved in tennis due to our thrash? Thousands.

How many got involved in tennis after Williams sisters? I would tell you millions, because they just were that I'm gonna say representative of the sport of the people. You know what I mean? And that's and that's and that's white, black, you know, and every color in between. But I really feel like that was a huge insertion, right, of a popular sport icon into a into a sport, and that in a sense turned culture.

into or added added itself into the culture as a result.

Alvin Owusu (26:09.628)
Say maybe the land of opportunity moniker is probably what's could be potentially holding us back, actually. There's the land of too many opportunities. And the further the further you do you further you dilute the the denominator, if you will, or increase the denominator, it will dilute your hit rate as well. Let me let's let's pivot a little bit to the the kind of the way that we structure junior development here in in the United States, right?

Torrey (26:18.435)
That's exactly right.

Torrey (26:30.413)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (26:38.608)
I I heard I watched this video and I I I'll try to find it again on YouTube. But this gentleman was giving his recounts of being at one of the like really large tennis academies. I can't remember if it was the Nadal Academy or if it was more Torgalou Academy, but one of those, like maybe it was Everett's, I don't know. It was one of the very big ones, right? And he was he was making he was saying a getting to the point of like, you know, once you get there's a certain level of like or amount of kids in a program.

Not necessarily kids on a court, but once you get to kids in a program, and this is probably coach to player ratio we're talking about here, right? Once you tip over a certain point, it starts to become less beneficial for the players, right? And I I I think back to we can even go down the path of like different academies that you've built and run, right? Like it feels like there is a critical, necessary critical mass, and then when you get to that critical mass, it's fantastic.

Torrey (27:17.516)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey (27:28.46)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (27:36.757)
But then once you go over that, it starts to become diluted by nature, but then also the kids who are not the best kids, if you will, start to get you lose track of them. You lose track of them. And I I hear a lot about, you know, even even some of the the recounts by like Andy Roddick and and Jim Currier and those guys, like about their time at Bolotaries. We think about Bolataries today and even go back to the two thousands before

Torrey (27:51.244)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (28:06.174)
IMG acquired it, it was this big tennis academy. But all the all of the positive things we always hear about training is from the small groups. When you when when Scoville came on and talked about and I asked him, like, you know, when did you feel like you like what what got you from pretty good player in the South to top ranked national to I'm I'm gonna make it on the pro tour or best junior in the country? And he mentioned the the small group at night.

at UTA putting in the extra work. You never mentioned anything about, you know, five to seven drills, right? Like it's so if you had to go back and and restructure it, like you're starting your you're starting your academy from scratch here, what's the you know, what's the best way to attack this?

Torrey (28:41.214)
Right. Sure.

Yeah.

Torrey (28:51.84)
It's a great question. First thing I would do is I would have more opportunities to play earlier. I would do more, I would start kids a bit sooner, and I would have more of a a multi sport background. Tennis, as you know, requires athleticism, doesn't necessarily train athleticism, certainly benefit from it, but I'm not saying

You know, if you're if you're drilling a soccer ball, I think you naturally get a little juke step, which is a little more agile than you having to yeah, than than you acquiring that on the tennis court. The second thing I would do is I would have players from a lot from a wide range and and backgrounds. I would make sure that it was more democ democratic from from the start. That way I got kids from all backgrounds in general, you know, with money and and not as much. Because I think that leads to a very healthy

cross section of of of the kids and and the heart and the hunger and the grit. Not saying that the kid without as much is gonna be more focused, but just saying that he potentially would would be a little more a little hopefully a little more appreciative of of of the opportunity, right? And the kid that had a little more needs to understand and appreciate he yeah I have a the ability to do a little extra. The last thing I would do, and these are all just things off the top, I would make sure that my parents would

appreciate a sporting background and appreciate and inculcate kids going to more athletic experiences, be it games, be it we're going to watch things a college team, be it the Jackets or be it the dogs, early and and and almost in a lot of sports. I want them to watch and see and kind of understand where this is going early on. I think a lot of times parents don't necessarily understand. They think they're living in a bubble and and you know and the the sports world is not a

It's not a snow globe, right? It's you're going to be in this big pond here very soon. And you need to kind of get your head around that very early and up to about the age. And the biggest difference I would make is up and I would keep it extremely friendly, extrêmely all in, up in the whole ten under program would be a complete big, if you will, dragnet of a lot of different things, especially for the the the tenure. But everything is non-competition. I think it's very important for them to all get good at

Torrey (31:13.125)
And just learning. And then at about 11, 12, and 13, we would start the audition for the academy program. And I think we would start to make sure that now has a lot of ways to, in a sense, apply for, earn your way into, play into, show me your body of work, and gain entrance into the academy. I think academy gets thrown about a lot, like it's something that a kid can just sign up and go to, and parents will send the money up.

Alvin Owusu (31:39.314)
Mm.

Torrey (31:41.358)
You have to draw that line that the kid has to earn their way into said academy. And that's the first thing that again, you don't want that early. That shouldn't be the case. I want them actually having a wide range of sports just to build that athletic that athletic base. I want them having had some martial arts. I want them having some swimming. I want them having a lot of things. They're going to draw on that long term, right? And it's just good to have for overall body proprioception and balance and core strength. But going into now we're going to focus on more on tennis.

I would actually make time for that two-sport athlete or three-sport athlete to make sure that they had it because I think it's still very important. You know, kids kids good baseball players, gonna have a good arm. You know, I don't need him doing five days with tennis, right? And so on. But at some point, he is going to have to in undergo a a an entrance exam, a a body of work. He's gonna have to apply. He's gonna have to literally, almost like college, show me why he wants to join this academy. And if he did that.

I think that's a huge way we start to realize that he or she is worth their salt going into it in the first place. Go ahead.

Alvin Owusu (32:47.379)
See, I think that's where the cultural thing starts to starts to kind of under undercut us here in the United States because if you were to and this is this is really, really interesting, so I hope we have time to get into it, but like in soccer programs here, right, we a lot of them ha now have a you get to a certain point and they have an academy track and a recreational track, right? Like you want to keep playing soccer but you're it it but you're not quite good enough. Like you at at this age, you can go you can keep playing on our recreational program, less commitment.

Torrey (33:05.946)
Thank you.

Torrey (33:15.043)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (33:17.249)
it's still parent coached or whatever all the way through. It it's just it's soccer for fun. We have recreation. And we have the same thing in basketball. You have recreation basketball, and then you have your AAU, right? And and then soccer, you have your academies and they all have their problems, but there is a bifurcation there, right? In tennis, I don't know that I've ever been aware of a two track path within a tennis academy. And maybe that's your point, like the

Torrey (33:20.602)
Yeah.

Yep. Yep.

Torrey (33:28.312)
Yeah you.

Torrey (33:33.785)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (33:45.544)
The idea of well you didn't even bring up a two track path. You said if you're not by the time of thirteen, if you are not ready for our academy, there actually isn't really a place for you here at this place. And that is a that's a

Torrey (33:59.469)
There there is there is league tennis, there is a and which will always be there. And and I feel that league tennis has to stay there just for the betterment of a program, especially if your own said program. But if I let's let's say for example, Alvin, that I was coaching at a at a at a private school, okay. I would continue to have tennis as a sport. We would have teams, we would have intramurals, we would have club level tennis. It's a great sport. It's a good workout.

Alvin Owusu (34:03.675)
Sure, you get

Torrey (34:28.608)
It's a lot of things. And I can't case I but I would also have the same thing in pickleball, by the way. I think it's a it's a growth. Same thing. But if I'm going to go to the competitive route, we now have to take some of the better kits, keep it small. We can't dilute it with some of the other. And we have to make sure those kids understand now that if you're gonna go this path, like other good kids have gone this path, we have to be ready and we have to have be prepared. And now is where we start to add in a lot more commitment. That would include

a little more time that would include more lessons, it would include more travel and so on and so forth. But the rec and the academy or rec and travel, that back when my son played, that's what it was. It was rec or travel. You know, and the travel was that better team, right? You know, you know what travel meant. You know how travel of what travel got you. I think the small numbers are a big part of it. But I also feel like the kid, maybe a little different even more than even that, where that's your chosen, I would love to see the kid apply. The kid would earn.

his or her way into the program. And I think what really hurts our culture in tennis is a lot of kids feel like if mom and dad can write the check, therefore they are in said academy and there's no accountability on the kid to earn his way into said space. And that's the lack of culture. Quite frankly, we let the kid kind of off the hook. And I think that's actually one of our bigger problems is that those with the wherewithal can let and afford their kid to go to said academies.

And that alone is what brings it down to the consumer. At some point, it's a sport and it's a federation style pick. And it's not hey, stroke a check for, you know, five, ten, twenty grand, you know, a a month here and take care of this, that, and the third, and you and we'll we'll we'll get you that slot at five o'clock, you know, every Monday, Wednesday, or Friday. No, no, no. Your kids gotta earn that spot. Your kids got it like he has to in the any other sport.

He has to make the cut. And I keep saying he for brevity's sake, she has to make the cut. She has to put in some work. She has to make some adjustments. And I think once you start having that mentality, the kid starts getting ownership. The kid starts understanding what grit really is. The kid starts understanding what making adjustments is all about. The kid starts to be go from a ten a kid playing tennis to a tennis player. And I think that's what we don't necessarily have and for too long.

Alvin Owusu (36:50.225)
Mm.

Torrey (36:53.213)
Some of our well-to-do still are playing tennis. They just play a lot of it, so they think they're a tennis player, but they haven't started to think like a tennis player. They haven't made adjustments, starting to look at this whole game as, I did this, I did this, I did this. Yeah, I know what I'll do. And that's really what co what tennis players have to do. They have to make adjustments on the fly and they have to know how to make those adjustments, and they have to know when and and know and have all the tools available to them to make set adjustments. And I think that's what's killing our academies.

Maybe even some of our soccer players. and some of the kids that come from other countries that grew up playing that a little longer have already, same analogy, they're not playing soccer, they're soccer players. They now understand the, I'm using the basketball term, the give and go, the 50-50 ball, you know, the the understanding how to fight for position. They they've done it for too long not to know. And I think that's what you that's what you see in at high-level soccer. They just understand it and and they grew up playing it, so they understand it, and it's part of it's part of the fabric.

Alvin Owusu (37:51.345)
Right, which kind of brings us back to where we started. Like it's in the it's in the culture. I feel like we could we could probably go on for another hour here, but I'm gonna I'm gonna cut it short today. I just wanted to I was thinking about it the last two days and I'm like, I'm gonna talk TH about this. but that was fun. We'll we'll we'll continue that conversation another time.

Torrey (37:53.192)
The culture. Right.

Torrey (38:07.537)
I would love to get some comments from some of the viewers and listeners, especially if they have kids. love to get some comments maybe to as a follow-up to this conversation to see if they have juxtaposing questions and points of view, or maybe an open-ended question. Maybe they got a little one that they're getting started on, you know, and and getting going. Because I would I personally think that one of the parents who I work with is daughters, they're both really good players, one of them's

Top national player when I'm is is on the on the way. He said one of the things he hates about tennis versus other sports, and this is his point. I thought it was a great, great point, also, there isn't the same information available to said parents that gives them a pathway that's that's succinct enough to go down that. So maybe that might be something we talk to next. And I think that's also a part of it, Alvin, is that there may not, that lack of is also why people may spin their wheels.

Alvin Owusu (38:54.63)
Yeah.

Torrey (39:05.474)
bit too much or spend too many resources the wrong direction. So I'd be curious to know what our viewers and listeners are wanting to know about that subject, if at all. And then we can maybe speak on that a little bit more. That way we can really kind of train this to to the direction to where it's has its most benefit.

Alvin Owusu (39:23.156)
Well put. Well put. And that means you also need to like and subscribe if you're going to comment as well. we'll put a pin in it there. I'm Alvin. That's Tori. Best of three. We are out.

Torrey (39:27.044)
Absolutely. Exactly.