Alvin Owusu (00:00.68)
And welcome to another edition of the Best of Three Podcasts. I'm Alvin. That's Patrick. And today we are joined by Matt Futterman. Matt is the the coming to us from the Athletic, but also the author of the soon to be released, or I guess whenever you whenever you hear this, it might be out by now. book called The Cruelest Game. Comes out on August fourth, available for pre order now, and then you can buy it for real if you're hearing this after August fourth. But first and foremost, Matt, welcome.

And how you doing?

Matt Futterman (00:31.16)
Thanks so much for having me, I appreciate it.

Alvin Owusu (00:34.246)
Yeah, I appreciate you I appreciate you coming on. we we ran into each other in DC a couple of days ago and I saw you. I think I may have startled you a little bit. but when I saw you I knew it was a is a good chance to to talk about your book and I appreciate you coming on. so I'm gonna kind of I I read the book. myself and Patrick have both read the book. and I could wax on about it, but I'd like to hear your your synopsis about about the book, why now? I'm even curious about why the title The Cruelest Game.

Patrick Parr (01:02.174)
Hmm.

Matt Futterman (01:05.102)
Great. well thanks again for having me. I guess like I should grab a copy of the book and show the book. You think I should do that? Yeah. I'll get you one.

Alvin Owusu (01:10.34)
Yeah, show the book. I don't have a physical copy. We have the digital copy, so

Patrick Parr (01:11.231)
Yes!

Matt Futterman (01:16.898)
Got one right here and there. Okay, so there it is. The cruelest game. Boom. How about that? See it right there. three years of blood, sweat and tears. So anyway, so what

Patrick Parr (01:18.943)
Ooh, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:19.132)
Boom, there it is. There you go.

Patrick Parr (01:23.433)
I'm

Patrick Parr (01:28.465)
All right.

Matt Futterman (01:30.188)
What's this book about? This is book is is is about what the subtitle says it is, which is Chasing Greatness in Professional in Professional Tennis. I really wanted to take readers inside the world of the Pro Tour and show them what these people go through in order to be great at their sport, which so many of them are. That being said, I sort of like noticed this dynamic over the last few years of traveling a lot.

w a around the world with these people. and there seems to be this dynamic where you had this one group of players that was kind of exiting the stage, the great ones, Murray, Nadal, Djokovic, Federer, Serena, and they seem to possess this kind of like

secret code of trying to of how to thrive, how to survive in this sport, for so many years over the long term. And there was this new generation that was filled with great players, but also with players who were sort of struggling to get the handle on those codes. And they were a as great as they were, Alcaraz, Sinush, Fiontek, Coco, they all had their moments of, you know,

my God, you know, freaking out to some extent. and just basic wonder as to how these great players who had dominated the sport for the last 20 years has been able to be so good for so long. And I wanted to sort of capture that dynamic of

this generational moment I wanted to get inside the minds of critical players at what I think is a really critical moment in this sport as it goes into its next phase. with, you know, you know i they're by now they're fast becoming very much household names. and they do things on the tennis court that I think even have left the great ones of the past in a wonder. but the question is, is can they hold up physically? Can they hold up mentally?

Matt Futterman (03:40.544)
and what does it take to do that over the course of 10, 15, 20 years.

Alvin Owusu (03:45.949)
Yeah. th thank you. I appreciate that. I'm gonna I I my my first question and kind of the first thing that it's a little bit macro and then we'll you know go micro after this, but after writing a book like this, what surprised you when you finally finished it? And obviously there's things happening in the book that are you know, by the time you finish writing it, other things have happened. So like what was the big surprise for you at the at the end of the book?

Matt Futterman (04:12.149)
that I finally got it done. No, the i th it I mean, first of all that I finally got it out. Second of all I mean I I mean I like to think myself as pretty humble, but I'm always I will always forever be surprised, flattered and amazed when you know, people like you read the book and say

yeah, this was th say th yeah, that was great. I really you know, I really enjoyed that. I learned stuff from it. I mean, i that is just a it's a very humbling experience for me. So in a sense that sense of surprise will always be there. And I guess, you know, in terms of the reporting of the book, what surprised me to some extent is I always knew that these people that I'm writing about

Patrick Parr (04:40.38)
Hmm. Hmm.

Matt Futterman (05:08.287)
are very young, they're very impressionable and at the same time, you s you know intellectually that you know they're not fully formed human beings. I don't know when we when we become fully formed human beings, but these are mostly people in their twenties. Some of them are in their 30s, some of them are teenagers.

But there's this these moments that over and over keep happening when you realize like just how young they really are. And it and I mean, look, Carlos Alcaraz freezing up in a in a full-on panic attack at the twenty twenty three French Open when he's playing Djokovic in this you know, he had sort of like

Alvin Owusu (05:39.644)
For example.

Matt Futterman (05:56.372)
i he had sort of sort of come at this sport with this like sense of wonder and there seemed to be nothing that could budge him off that sort of nirvana state almost. And yet there he is at Roland Garros and all of a sudden he's like

he's kind of having a freak out and he can't move his body. And he is I mean, he's fully fit, you know, physically, but he's cramping up from the tension of this of the tension of this moment of facing Djokovic in a grand slam and knowing how hard this task is going to be and doing it as the as you know

Alvin Owusu (06:20.955)
Yeah, yeah.

Matt Futterman (06:38.187)
Was he the favorite? I don't know. I think a lot of people picked him going into that match. And that on that day was too much for him. So you see something like that. you see this moment last year at the US Open with with Coco. She's two months removed from winning the French Open. Y I mean, you think she has the sort of

sport in a strangle hold at this point. and really what's happening is she can't serve all of a sudden. y we've all seen, you know, baseball players who suddenly, you know, they they can't make the throw from second base and catchers who can't make the throw back to the pitcher. I mean that's basically what Coco Goff was going through at that point. And, you know, she's Coco Goff. She's like as cool a customer as there is out there.

Espe a and the and then yet in a flash she transforms back to being, I think was she twenty-two last year, twenty-one, twenty-two, but right in that that early twenty-something who's trying to figure out her life. and trying to figure out her job and going through a rough spot with it. So there's all these moments and what it comes down to is, you know, when you get

Alvin Owusu (07:44.591)
Something like that, yeah.

Matt Futterman (08:00.653)
When you get into a situation like you know, having dinner with Djokovic, and you ask him, you know, like what's going on inside your head in one of these super intense matches, and he just flat out says, like, it's a roller coaster. You doubt yourself, you de you can't believe, you can't see how this is gonna work out. And that's Novak Djokovic, and he's he's won 24 Grand Slam titles. So

I think we see them on television and in stadiums doing these superhuman things i and acting like these sort of just the essence of calm under pressure so often and yet

all of a sudden you get struck by the human frailties and then you get them to talk about those human frailties and what goes into it and why they're experiencing it and that's where the surprise really begins to happen.

Alvin Owusu (08:56.411)
Gotcha. You know, and that's one of the things that I love about our sport and that I'm sorry about it I to cut you off all that you go in a minute here, but like one of the things I love about our sport is that it you it is so human, right? There is no there's very little distance between the players and the fans. You can see all the emotion kind of all the time if you're looking for the right things. And, you know, as I was going through this book, the a lot of the notes that I was taking was like you can get to a place that Novak has gotten to in time.

Patrick Parr (08:57.47)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (09:24.345)
And the point you make about about age, which I think you end up tying it, you know, tying it together towards the back end of the of the book, it's like, yeah, these are sometimes seventeen, eighteen, maybe twenty four, twenty five year olds, and they say we don't, you know, become fully formed adults until thirty or something like that. It's like and that's a that's a lot. It's a it's it's a lot to deal with. go ahead, Pat.

Patrick Parr (09:47.231)
yeah. I think when I read the book, I loved how you got into the frailty of it and everything. 

Patrick Parr (10:14.558)
I didn't realize that until we were going to have this interview.

I thought, my God, what is the first time I read Futterman? I went back all the way to 2000 and there was an article that you wrote for Star Ledger about Serena and Venus. I don't know if you remember that time, but it was about how they were changing the game. And you were saying that like the Williams era has begun. And I really, really have been following you since that.

point from 2000 to now and I was just going to ask you this is kind of a huge macro question my apologies but how have you how have you seen the game change from that human frailty standpoint that you do so well in the book

How has it changed from that moment when you saw Serena in Venus in 2000 to today where you're still seeing that human frailty but I'm guessing in different ways?

Matt Futterman (11:22.247)
well thank you so much for r you know, like reading me bat all the way back from twenty five years ago. I mean my mother my mother has done that, my father has done that. I'm not sure anybody else has done that. so yeah, that g that goes way back. but yeah, I remember that story. I remember the start of the w you know, I remember sort of being just personally kind of blown away.

Patrick Parr (11:27.55)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (11:39.964)
Yes.

Matt Futterman (11:48.376)
by the start of the Williams era because here were these two girls from Compton. And, you know, they had just sort of that that are you ready world for us, cause you better be, you know, aura about them. And it was great. And they just completely shook up the t the tennis in a way that no one I would say has before or since.

In terms of the the human frailty aspect of it, I think you've had a monumental shift in the fact that back then you really weren't supposed to talk about it and it was seen as a weakness. you were supposed to shut it out, you're supposed to ignore it. The image I always like go to for sports psychology back then is

Yeah. Remember Tiger Woods when he used to it when he when he first came on the tour and he would line up a putt and he would like he would put his hands over his over the brim of his baseball cap and he would really try and like focus and that was kind of a physical manifestation of this idea of focus, shut everything out. And I think twenty five years later, where we've come to and what you hear from most of these mindset specialists who work

With players, and I mean just about every player I've I I talk to these days has someone they speak to, has a sports psychologist, or just a psychologist, therapist, life coach, any you know, whatever the term is, has one of those people. And I think what goes on now is not so much to try and shut that other stuff out.

But to verbalize it, to bring it in, to get comfortable with it. there's a i i there's a great mindset guru, Mike Gervaise, who has worked with the Seattle Seahawks and any number of other people. And, you know, Mike would say, you know, it's not about if you're afraid of the tiger, what we need to learn to do is to invite the tiger to sit on the couch with us and learn how to pet the tiger. And so it's all of these players

Matt Futterman (14:04.429)
trying to figure out what their tiger is and what they're scared of and what they are tr you know what the thoughts are that are gonna g that are inevitably going to go through their heads at four four thirty all when they have to hit a decent serve.

And because those are that that sort of stuff is inevitable. You can't there's an acceptance that you can't shut it out. So what you need to do now is you need to learn how to deal with it. And so if what you if if what is gonna flash through your mind at four four thirty all when you're trying to serve is your mother or your father yelling at you when you were eight years old and saying, You better make this shot or else

You know, you better learn how to deal with that emotions and understand it in a way that it won't cause you to self-destruct. I think that's the biggest change that I've seen, and thank God I would say b that that it has changed in that way. And this effort this this effort also to try to get people to separate their results from their identity.

I think those two things go hand in hand because that's the

Patrick Parr (15:17.374)
Hmm.

Matt Futterman (15:22.709)
You know, that's the rabbit hole that every tennis player at some point in his or her career falls into. You know, because it's such a brutal sport in that way. You asked earlier, why is it the cruelest game? It's because everybody loses every week for the most part, except for one person. And so if you are defining yourself by what your result is at the end of the week and by your identity, you know, you're screwed. You're gonna end up with ma as as Madison Keys in twenty nine.

Years old and having had a great career and having earned millions of dollars, but also feeling inadequate and not enough until you get the right coach who happens to be your boyfriend and then your fiancé and now your husband, who tells you, I don't really care if you win or lose. Like, you lose, great. We get on a plane, we go home, we're drinking coffee in our house in Orlando in 30 hours.

But go down swinging, go down the right way. I give you permission to lose. It's fine. And no one had ever given her that permission before, and it made all the difference to her.

Alvin Owusu (16:26.54)
Yeah, that's a that's a really and I remember that that point in the book and I was thinking like it takes very much so a fully formed adult to even take that kind of information and go, Yeah, that's actually exactly what's going to happen. It's going to be fine. There will be another tournament, there will be another match. And I think there's a big there's a big shift, especially we're talking about players coming onto the tour at age seventeen or like Madison a little bit younger, sixteen, where you go from junior tennis where

You must excel to get to the next level to get to professional tennis. And then when you get to professional tennis, there is excelling, but there's also just being a professional tennis player. You can like the getting the job is different than doing the job of being a professional tennis player, which comes with a lot of losing. Like these pros that we see on television, they were all for the for the for the most of them, all top five, top

ten in the world as juniors, they did a lot of winning. And then they get onto the pro tour and being a professional tennis player is mostly about losing. Just trying not to lose too often so that you can continue doing this as a job. And I think that that kind of that kind of quote from from from from Madison is like, Yeah, that that sums it up when you're close to thirty years old. I kinda I get it. I get it. All the way around.

I'm I'm curious, I think you mentioned Madison, there were a lot of players that you told the story of, you know, the the codes, if you will, through their through their kind of journey as pret special tennis players. The selection was interesting. Why did you choose those players and maybe not others?

Matt Futterman (18:14.677)
the selection was maybe one of the most difficult things to go through in the book 'cause I was working on this book for a couple of years and it's a moving target. You know, things are always changing every you know, every few months, sometimes every few weeks. I really wanted to make sure I had the critical players. I didn't I didn't w wanna write

I mean, I think there's a great book to be written. There was a great movie that was done about, you know, the challenger tour. You know, I you know, but that wasn't what I wanted this book to be. I I I mean, people care about stars. I care about stars. Stars drive this sport. So to me, I had to write about the biggest and the most important players who were on the court at this point. And when you start framing it in that sense

it becomes a much more narrow window. you know, there w are there players that right now sitting here I might have wanted to spend a little more time on? yeah, I mean Alexander V Zverev happened to have won his first Grand Slam a a month before, you know, the book came out, just as I was finishing it. Didn't have time to do a whole deep dive on him.

And he's a fairly critical player. But at the same time, I I do think, you know, he is someone who's who I mean, look, he may yet win multiple grand slams, but he's not gonna be piling them up. and I think the other p so so it was a matter of focusing on like players that you were just seeing all the time and hearing about all the time. players who were really good, players who were

charismatic and we're dominating the conversation. you know, Casper a and then also, you know, look, part of this is sometimes you just get great material from a player who's, you know maybe not

Matt Futterman (20:21.569)
You know, a top five player, at least at the moment this book comes out, Casper Rood comes to mind. But, you know, being able to really sort of get inside the relationship between him and his father was a real opportunity and it fit in and it fit in well to something I really wanted to explore, what which was this sport is different in terms of

The moms and the dads staying involved in a very real and a very close way throughout a lot of the careers. I mean, Aaron Judge is playing right field for the New York Yankees. His parents are not sitting in the stands telling him to move in or move out. They're not, you know, he goes, he goes up to bat. They're not telling him to swing or not swing. Or I mean, you know, no no one no one is telling Clayton Kershaw like whether to throw a curveball or fast.

Alvin Owusu (21:00.059)
Ha ha ha.

Matt Futterman (21:14.871)
I mean that just doesn't happen for the most part in other sports. And it's all the time in tennis. the good the really good you know, the really good parent coaches fire themselves is what i is what I would argue. Although Christian Root is probably the exception here. maybe more than any maybe more than any anyone else. but you know, Coco's father, you know, his goal

was to fire himself, which he did. and so that's really important. So I wanted to get inside these families. So I'm constantly thinking as I'm writing the book about big themes that I want to write about and characters who are gonna address those themes. So I mean the main characters in the book, I mean, Novak had to be the star of the book, right? It was no quest no question. And and that becomes obvious

Alvin Owusu (22:10.404)
Right.

Matt Futterman (22:15.007)
i that becomes obvious the first grand slam you go to because he is the main character in the sport. Everyone is kind of obsessed with him.

You Sinner is trying to it it has adopted his game. Alcaraz is looking at how he practices. Coco is looking at how he returns serve. I mean one after another. They're just everybody has their eyes on him because he's the he's the magician. He's the goat. so he was gonna be he was always going to be a main character. I did wanna write a chunk about the American men, 'cause I think that's a really important theme, especially in the country I come from and also but but you know, also

in the sport. I mean this country dominated men's tennis for several decades, you know, e the most of the first three decades of the profess of the modern era starting in the l in you know nineteen sixty eight.

Yes, Australians were great. There were other players who were terrific. But the Americans were always there. And the American men just haven't had they haven't won slams in twenty years. And everyone's desperate for one to come along. And, you know, there was this generation of players who were sort of raised to

to fill that bill, in Taylor Fritz, Francis Tiafo, Tommy Paul and well Riley O'Pelco before he got hurt, 'cause they y you know, they were all playing in Grand Slam junior Grand Slam final. So I wanted to write about that.

Matt Futterman (23:47.974)
And so things as things went along, it sort of made itself obvious. Obviously Alcaraz was gonna have to be main main be a main character and Sinner was gonna have to be a main character. and also, you know, the what has women's tennis been about the last few years? A lot of it's been about Sviatek and Sabalenka. And, you know, I needed to find a way to sort of penetrate their teams and get, you know, to speaking with them and have as much contact with them.

As possible and understand the dynamics of what was really going on with them. So I want to say it was really hard to figure out who the main characters needed to be. At the same time, it kind of made itself obvious. And I I think I placed some pretty good bets.

Patrick Parr (24:39.198)
What I also love about it, you do get into some of the supporting characters, we could call them. I love how you call Medvedev a pterodactyl.

I had never heard that before, I, and like a human backboard. I love the descriptions you have of the players. mean, that is, that suits Medvedev. feel so, so well. think Alvin and I, both have an affinity for Medvedev a bit. I don't, but also you also bring up other people I've been thinking about as well for, especially this year, Howard Frendrick, you brought up the AP writer in your,

and he just did that story about Jensen Brooksby with autism and He you talked about the long nights that writers spend at Grand Slams and I was wondering if you could kind of push back the curtain for us fans of it and kind of get us into that that late night because I think people often forget that a Five-hour match ends and we go to sleep, but for you your job is just starting

right? It's that's and I'm wondering about the when you go into the press box and you're having to ask these questions to these athletes after a five-hour match what is it about that that

that you're going through, like, you put us in that environment just of what's happening between the journalists and the athletes? Sorry if this is a bit random, but... Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Futterman (26:16.737)
Well Well we well I can tell you we're all really tired. You know we've all had a really long night, and we're all probably looking forward to, you know, being horizontal before too long. so you know there's a i there's that there's that element to it. I think what's it you know, there is

Alvin Owusu (26:21.409)
Ha ha.

Matt Futterman (26:41.557)
You know, there's like a battlefield aura about these people after they've been through something like that. you're you're qu you're you're in quite close quarters with them often. so you can really see detail, you know, you can you can you can easily tell if they've been crying or not. and there are different players who handle it differently, you know. I mean, Novak if he loses a match, he is

in a press room within about five minutes. He's just like wants to get out of there. But but he's there for it. Like we'll talk about it. It's not giving one word answers and running out the door. So it's different for different players. you know, I think s pretty much all of them they go in, they have to take the court

believing that they can win the match. I mean, as Alvin referenced before, these are people that have won so many matches in their lifetime. And they are, you know, they're used to being the best for miles around, you know, and no one can touch them. And then they go into you know, the highest the highest realm of competition here. And they're not automatically the best anymore. and they do get

And they get beat. and you know, we we were talking about the human frailty aspect of it. The sort of father of all that in tennis is Alan Fox, who I spoke with for this book and was very helpful. And he said something that, you know, like will always stay stay with me. And, you know, I was thinking about it the other day when I lost the singles match six two six two. That

You know and you know, here I am fifty-six years old and I've been playing, you know, f for a really long time and it really shouldn't matter, you know, how I I really shouldn't feel bad about, you know, any loss at this point, 'cause what does it matter? But there is something about tennis, and this goes back to the title of the book, The Cruelest Game, that when you lose at tennis, it kind of feels like you just got beat up. And

Alvin Owusu (28:58.894)
Yeah.

Matt Futterman (28:59.633)
And there's a f there's a and that's Allen's line. That's what he says. Like you can go down to the park and you can play three on three basketball and you can lose and you know, you could lose badly, but everyone's still sort of like swatting hands and having a good time and playing in the park and stuff like that. He said like you go onto a tennis court and you know, you get drilled like that.

Do you feel like somebody, you know, knocked you in the teeth? And he said it's not his argument is that it's not so much because of you know anyone has actually punched you 'cause

Things have gone really bad if they actually have. but it's because it just sort of feels i it it's it's that loneliness out there and there's like a sense of shame if somebody is having their way with you on a tennis court. And you know, I think I I I never wanna compare

you know, my experience of the game to a professional athlete's experience of the game, what I do on a Tennessee and what all of us do is completely, completely different from the stuff they are able to do with a ball and with their bodies. But, you know, I go back to

you know, something a a marathoner once said to me, 'cause I do run a lot of marathons, and this was, you know, one an Olympic marathoner, and I made some reference to that. And he said he said, you know, we all experience that y you and I we we experience the same pain. We just experience it at different moments. And and I think that I think that is something that even a professional tennis player would

Alvin Owusu (30:34.573)
Mm.

Matt Futterman (30:42.791)
allow you to empathize with them and would probably welcome it. You know, they would say, Well, yeah, of course. I mean, like, but I'm doing it on center court at Wimbledon, it's a little different. And yes, it is different. It's c obviously completely different. But, you know, I've had people tell me about

the sensations and I told them about their sensations of it and they're kinda like, Yeah, right. You double faulted when everyone when everything was on the line. You feel like it dunts and you feel completely exposed. You feel naked. So I mean that's sort of th that's something that you know I just y I kept coming back to in the book and that question of like why

Does tennis do this to people? why does it reveal character and personality in a way that I don't think any other sport does or few other sports do?

Alvin Owusu (31:36.344)
Yeah, that's yeah, that's that's tennis for you in a in a nutshell. you know, we kind of circle back to the the Novak of things and I think pretty early on in the book as I'm starting to get a feel for what is this book actually about? Because like I know there's been some talk about, you know, how the book might be about how tennis players are unhappy and but I was like, No, this this book is a it's about a lot more than that. And I as you started going on and and laying out kind of the thesis of the book, I'm like

This book could be all about Novak Djokovic. Like this feels like the Novak story. and I and I I feel that way because I have this own personal view of professional tennis players in that they they get to their their peak at some point, and it's very hard to sustain that peak for longer than three years. Like you see someone get to four in the world, and if they don't get past four in the world, it's kind of that's kind of where they are, and then they and then they return down, or let's just say players catch up to them, right? And I I've

always had a very difficult time kind of closing the loop on that thought. And I think your book very well helped me close that in that the one of the codes to being a professional tennis player is being able to go through three year cycles. It's not necessarily a peak and I think Novak is the is the king of that. So if I if I if I give that back to you in that this kind of happens in three year cycles and a player has to, like you mentioned in the book,

almost force forcefully reinvent themselves all the time, is that about what you were going for?

Matt Futterman (33:12.845)
I mean, I didn't realize it when I was going I didn't r that was something that comes out in the reporting and like you said, I think I you know, I think you're right, that is sort of a through line in the book that you see with a lot of the players who do excel and especially the ones who have excelled in the past. Yes, they all changed. They all realized that they were gonna have to

keep getting better. And, you know, it's so cliche. Everybody a every athlete says, you know, I'm just you know, I i there's always things I can improve. I'm trying to get better every day. you know, they they all say that. But in terms of like really changing and I mean part of it is just the simple acceptance on the men's side at least that as you grow older

you just you can't play these long points anymore. So you gotta play fast and you gotta finish points and you gotta be way more aggressive. So if you talk about, as you said, the Novak of it all, I mean i yeah, he's not

He he is so different than the player that was started winning Grand Slams when he would just when he was and and Nadal went through the same transition when they were playing so much attrition tennis and waiting and waiting for their spots and they would you know, it was like death by a thousand cuts with them in some ways. and you know, w what did they g get to when they were winning some of their later Grand Slams, which is just this first strike ten.

I mean that for Novak never would have been possible had he not basically completely remade his serve after his elbow issue in the late 2010s, which is an incre which you know is an incredible sort of crazy thing in its own right. But you know, he went from that serve being something of a weakness and then Doll the same way.

Matt Futterman (35:11.051)
to it being a real weapon. I mean, his spot serving even today, when it's on, is just about unmatchable. I mean, and he's not he's not, you know, hitting 151 on the radar gun like Ben Shelton is, but he doesn't have to, because he hits the spots so well and at such a terrific at at such terrific moments. So yeah, there is that there is that necessity to

Rev yourself up and rejuvenate yourself and get yourself ready to to to embark on another mission. Because yeah, like you said, players do catch up. The game changes. I I would say like the you know, one of the starkest examples we've seen this and one of the ones that, you know, I personally am most excited about is watching this version of Naomi Osaka.

Alvin Owusu (36:06.048)
Mm, yeah, yeah.

Matt Futterman (36:07.883)
Because because it's so different, it's and she's trying to make it so different because she knows she has to than the one that was so dominant in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, in that period when she was, you know, outside of Ash Barty, the best player in the world. and just sort of different from from Ash Barty too, 'cause Ash was such a magician.

But you know, Osaka goes away because, you know, first she had some mental health struggles, then she had a baby, and then she was on maternity leave, and then she comes back, and the game has pretty much completely changed on her. There's n there's no standing in the middle co middle of the court digging in and swinging, which is the game that she pretty much grew up.

Alvin Owusu (36:48.077)
Yeah.

Matt Futterman (36:56.595)
training for. And now she's gotta dig in and out of corners and she's gotta learn how to I write about this in the book, 'cause I was on this I was at her sort of training training period before at the end when she was just about to come back from maternity leave. And she was literally learning how to hit an open stance backhand, which had go which had gone from becoming kind of a trick shot to

Alvin Owusu (37:16.588)
Yeah.

Matt Futterman (37:22.899)
Something that you just have to be able to do if you're gonna compete because you need that extra split second to get out of the corner. And you know, if you're moving your front foot in front of your hip instead of keeping it on the other side and being able to push off the back foot and at the same time push yourself back towards the center of the court.

You're gonna l you know, you're not gonna be in position. And so I think that's something that, you know, really does separate the greatest of the greats from players who get hot and are great and win some titles and then have their moment, and sort of fade off.

Alvin Owusu (38:03.797)
It's it's almost like the job requirements have changed. Like she she w she was there doing the job exceptionally well, doing the same job everyone else was doing just better, and then she leaves and now they're like, Okay, we have it's effectively like we have AI now and and you need to be able to use that to do this job and she's like, I don't even have to turn a computer, what are you talking about? you know, something like that. I spent some time watching her when we were in in D C last week on the practice course and I like, She is

She is not saying a relic 'cause she's not that old, but like she is a perfect example of tennis, probably say almost pre twenty twenty one. Like there's kind of a change there, especially like when Iga hit the scene and then after, like the requirements, especially in the front court, to be able to manipulate the ball with your hands. It's just it's become almost table stakes at this point. And you can see she's very good at doing the other things.

And now the game is asking more and more of specia specifically the women players. so that's I I was really glad to see like after you know seeing her in person and then reading the book, like, this is actually a very, very interesting way to tell this story. but kind of going back she's she is.

Matt Futterman (39:18.815)
And g and give her credit 'cause she is she is leaning into it. And she is I mean, if you saw her at Wimble I I never thought I would see Naomi Naomi Yasaka playing at Wimbledon the way she played. And and she was great. I mean there was I I kind of thought at there was a point in the middle of the in the middle of the tournament I th I I I thought like, wait a minute, is Naomi Yasaka gonna win Wimbledon? And it really kind of when she

Alvin Owusu (39:43.053)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (39:44.034)
yeah. Yeah.

Matt Futterman (39:46.742)
drilled Sabalanka in that match. You really have to think like, wait a minute, is she the favorite? Like is this gonna happen? and yeah, she gets exposed, but like I mean just seeing the smile on her face and figuring out how to play grass better. Same with Coco. Coco's, you know, a lot younger and it's great that she's also, it seems like, ready to embrace the next phase of her career.

Patrick Parr (39:48.764)
Mmm.

Matt Futterman (40:16.895)
And Coco has a real understanding of it in the sense that I mean I once asked her about i this idea of like how much of you are you at this point? And she was I think she said something like sixty five percent or so because she thought she was like, Look at when women tennis players peak. She's like, Ega threw it all off. She's like, But I think I but I'm focused on like being around twenty four years old in that period, like

in my mid twenties, she's like, That's when you win a lot that's when you pro people seem to win a lot of titles and so I'm still evolving and I'm still getting there, which is such a healthy attitude. It's great.

Alvin Owusu (40:57.056)
It really is. I want to kind of go back to, you know, the thing that everyone talks about, the the sinner and Alcaraz duopoly. I think the way that you kind of tied those two together in the back end of the book was like something I'm sure Gary Nathan would have been proud of. But I wanna kinda get your view on that, their place in the game together. And then maybe even like if you have anything you could share about their view on their place in the game together.

Matt Futterman (41:26.295)
Well, they know how important they are. and they know that they need each other. And I really like I really do believe Sinner when he says the sport needs Alcaraz. And I think he kinda needs Alcaraz because he's his measura you know, that's his measuring stick at the moment. Now there are gonna be other ones, you know, like you you can't y you can't look at Rafael Hodar right now and not think

this guy's gonna eventually be a problem for these people. if not very, very soon. so

I I mean there are going to be other ones. It happens. You know, it's not gonna be just these two splitting Grand Slams for the next ten years. I really don't think that's yeah, it can't it can't be. I mean guys get I mean you you see why. I mean, 'cause people get hurt. People miss. Like you know, people it gets really hot and centered can't finish a match. I mean, like, you know, stuff happens. So that's the sport, right? i so

Alvin Owusu (42:13.674)
It can't. It it's not gonna happen. It can't happen.

Patrick Parr (42:15.888)
Agreed. Agreed.

Matt Futterman (42:33.249)
But I do having said that, you know, Alcaraz has said his sights, you know, his his goal is very, very clear. You know, he wants to be the greatest of all time. And he wants to win a lot, a lot of Grand Slam titles. Will he be able to? I don't know. You know, like

Tiger Woods had one number in his head from the time he picked up you know from the time he started playing professional golf, which was Jack Nicholas's record of 18 majors. Like but stuff happened, you know, life happens, life gets in the way, you get injured, you make bad decisions. it doesn't always work that way. But I think but Alcaraz certainly knows that he can do things that no other player can do.

Sinner knows that too. Sinner also knows that he's gotta I think work a little harder at it, that he he has a lot of natural gifts, you know, more than all but one person on the planet right now, probably. But that you know, the the really magical stuff doesn't quite come to him and that maybe if they're both playing at their best.

Alcaraz probably wins, but the thing about tennis is no you know, it's so rare. I mean, it's a it's never gonna happen over a five-set match that both players play at their best for all five sets. And it's rarely gonna happen on any given Sunday that both players are playing at their best. So it's it's it becomes all about what can you do with what you have on that day.

And you know, that's that's where Sinner is working. I I think that's where Sinner's head is at. And Alcaraz's head seems to be with how dynamic can I make this? What you know, what can I accomplish today that will make things completely amaz you know, will that will be completely amazing and at the same time, you know, not be an idiot.

Patrick Parr (44:38.782)
Yeah.

Matt Futterman (44:44.993)
You know, not play just highlight real tennis. Be efficient. Work on you know, do the do the kind of grinding hard work like we saw him do last year heading into the US Open.

Patrick Parr (44:45.617)
You

Alvin Owusu (44:59.234)
I think we've I think we've gotten there with with him.

Patrick Parr (44:59.258)
You brought up a really good analogy I thought in your book about how Ben Shelton is trying to get into these two. I can't remember it exactly, how Ben started a little bit later.

in his tennis journey than Alcaraz. And so you brought up like, he's that means that Alcaraz has hit six million millions more tennis balls than Shelton in his life. And it reminded me a little bit of like that maybe over popularized 10,000 hour theory with Malcolm Gladwell and all that. But I did think when you look at a player like Ben Shelton trying to break into Alcaraz and center,

Do you see a way through? you think that he might be able to, I guess, compete with them in a way that puts him in the mix? Or do you think he still has a couple more years to go?

Matt Futterman (46:04.957)
I think he's got a ways to go. the numbers will say that. I mean, right now right now he's playing way too many three set matches or five set matches against players who are ranked well below where he is. And i I I keep waiting for him to get to the point where he's winning early round matches two and three.

You know, like that's and he doesn't and he just doesn't do that. He plays way too many tiebreakers. Tiebreakers are co yeah. Tiebreakers even when you have his serve, are basically coin flips. You know, especially especially later in a match when

The pressure gets more intense and the level mostly probably goes down a little bit. so you know, I I I I mean, and it's not it doesn't matter what I think. I mean, I was just talking to his dad in Washington the other day, and like he he and Ben are both well aware that they've got a lot of work to do to get to that point where he's dominating matches.

The big issue I think right now, and the numbers bear this out, is the serve is the return of serve. You know, he's just not getting enough you know, he there are certain things he does well, but he's not breaking enough e he's not he's not breaking enough, he's not getting enough breakpoint chances, he's not converting those. I mean, I you know, you talk about like being clinical. I mean, i i he lost that match to Tobila the other night. Like

Alvin Owusu (47:23.138)
Return to serve, yeah.

Matt Futterman (47:46.528)
i i that match should have been over an hour and twenty minutes before it was actually over because he was he had him it was four four above forty and Tabilla was serving and it not only did he not win those not win those three points, I think he he he didn't get two of the returns into the court. one of them was a second serve.

Alvin Owusu (48:04.447)
Right.

Matt Futterman (48:09.657)
and then he had two more breakpoints he d in that game, didn't convert those. You know, like that's we I think we will know Ben Shelton is or one signal we'll have that Ben Shelton is ready is that when he's playing a quarter final in D C and he's got those breakpoints and he's up a set, then he gets one of them and then serves out the set fairly in short order and

is in the shower and back in his hotel room, getting rest, getting some food and getting ready for the next day. So yeah, I mean it's g i it it's gonna be really hard 'cause I and the reason I wrote about him and the reason I thought he was so interesting was because I I mean I don't I I don't think I've ever seen an athlete on a tennis court like Ben Shelton. I mean

Alvin Owusu (48:59.978)
Yeah.

Matt Futterman (49:01.215)
I I think he's the best at I think he's the best in in the men's game, I think he's the best pure athlete I've ever seen on a tennis court. I just can't I can't think about I can't I mean, maybe Rafa because he was a great soccer player as well, but I I I still think, you know, there are certain shots that Shelton makes and he jumps like he's like he could dunk a basketball.

Patrick Parr (49:01.704)
Great.

Matt Futterman (49:30.611)
He looks like a yeah, and he a right? And he's and sometimes he hits these shots that look like an NFL wide receiver, you know, g making one of those diving catches on the side, you know, as he as he's going out of bounds. I mean and twisting his he just he twists his body i you know, like fill in the blank great wide great NFL wide receiver of the moment. and

Alvin Owusu (49:30.753)
Well he most definitely could dug a basketball.

Patrick Parr (49:32.518)
I bet it could, yeah.

Matt Futterman (49:58.868)
So the question is, and I think this is the thing that all of us have wondered for so long, is, you know, what if Michael Jordan had had a tennis racket when he was six years old? What if Steph Curry had had a tennis racket? What if Patrick Mahomes had had a tennis racket and started playing tennis? But, you know, this is America and like tennis is not the most popular sport. It doesn't draw the best athletes.

I think it drew the it I think it drew like a future NFL quarterback when it got Ben Shelton. So did it get him too late though? Is the only question. Because he really wasn't playing that much until he was thirteen, fourteen years old. And

You know, the junior rankings will show you that. And he'll be the first one to tell you, like, I don't think he's like, I don't think I was above three hundred as a junior. He's like, I just wanted to play at Florida. He's like, that's all I was focused on. And then it sort of came together very quickly. but it still needs some coming together. I don't Alvin, I see you sm I see you grinning at that. What are you thinking?

Alvin Owusu (50:59.689)
Yeah. So the Ben Shelton is a very he comes up a lot in this podcast. my I w my co host Tori Hawkins knows Brian well from their their days together in Atlanta here when Brian was at Georgia Tech. Chris Eubanks came on a couple of weeks back and we talked a lot about Ben and I also spent some time with him at practice last week and you know, seeing him get into like get into an explosive position to hit a serve, it is

Patrick Parr (51:00.637)
Yeah

Alvin Owusu (51:29.171)
Especially when you're at court level with him, it's like that is not what you normally see in tennis. That is a different kind of athlete all the way around. But I think the if he if he focused on tennis earlier, I don't think you get a lot of him the way he is now. And I think th it it's you know, it's a it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. A lot of the the lightness with which he can carry himself on a tennis court or that he brings to

legit top ten professional tennis, I think comes from not having the baggage of having gone through junior tennis. But the flip side is that you'll never see him develop the hand skills and the court savvy and the craft to probably get past I think you you you said he's probably hit bumping into a ceiling and I I I agree like it's going to take something else that I don't think he can necessarily create.

But look at what he's done without it. That's the that's kind of the the takeaway. Like he's been as high as, I think, five in the world without it. So if something were to break in his favor, he would need to break to do himself a favor. But if something were to break in his favor in a draw, he's one of those guys that I think is is right there who could who could, you know, potentially catch the

Catch the Zerav's fli the Zeriv slam every once in a while if you if you will. That's that's my Shelton.

Matt Futterman (52:57.589)
Yeah, I I I I a hundred percent agree with you on that. It did break in his fa i it broke as much in his favor in Paris as it co as it possibly could. you know, if you look at where he was sitting on that side of the draw, you know, like he was he was the top player in his section. There was he had Rafael Calignan

Alvin Owusu (53:04.449)
It did, yeah.

Matt Futterman (53:24.319)
In the third round, you know, the number sixty four. And look, I mean, Khalak Nan like played lights out tennis that night. Like he probably would yeah, I mean, he was he played top ten tennis that night. So, you know, hats off to him. He he was great. At the same time, you know, that's an opportunity you know, that's an opportunity that

Alvin Owusu (53:24.929)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (53:32.831)
He did. He did.

Patrick Parr (53:38.054)
Nothing to lose, yeah.

Matt Futterman (53:46.572)
that he missed. You know, at the same time, you know, a night later, I can't remember which two nights later, you know, Francis had the same opportunity. He's playing what w what was Arnaldi? One fourteen or one forty at that point? I mean one four. He was something he was outside the top one hundred and, you know, there was a huge opportunity and and waiting for you know, waiting for

Alvin Owusu (53:57.376)
Arnaldi? Did he play Arnaldi? Yeah.

Matt Futterman (54:13.023)
Arnold i waiting in the next round was Berettini. was an injured Berettini. And waiting in the next round after that was Caboli. Like like these were these are opportun Yeah, it was there. So we're always saying, Well if it br if it if it breaks for them, you know, it broke pretty well for for Francis a couple of years ago too. You know, like he had

Patrick Parr (54:17.0)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (54:25.995)
They had opportunities. Yeah.

Matt Futterman (54:39.359)
a semifinal against Taylor Fritz to make the final U to make the US Open final. the so it get it's gotten there for them, like but I think what you what also has to happen though, is it also has to happen a few more times. They have to get they have to get used to that feeling of being the favorite and be you know, there's there's a reason Verev it happens versus Verev now.

And it didn't happen for him in twenty twenty, or at other times when he's gotten to finals and really hasn't shown up all that great. So, you know, 'cause he'd been there before and he was a little more ready for it, I think. And so yeah, I I mean I I I don't wanna say that that Ben is too close to his ceiling because, you know, that would

That would ca I mean he's still so young, right? He's still so young and he still has so many more balls to hit. But he is learning all this stuff in real time. And you know, it's I I I do wanna see him also, in addition to the return, is like hit fewer of like sell out four hands on the run. Yeah, he never like it's like one out of twenty that actually

Alvin Owusu (55:39.295)
Right. Yeah.

Matt Futterman (56:06.145)
makes it and when they make it it's incredible and he poses for the crowd and light his smile lights up and everybody goes crazy and it's awesome but he's gotta find a way to scramble out of points and steal points the Waysenter and Alcras steal points and they don't necessarily do it with those sort of miracle sellout shots.

Alvin Owusu (56:27.903)
Yeah. And it's a the steel the steel shot's an interesting one. Like that that skinny cross when he's running forehand. Like he kinda has to if it's not a smoker down the line, he's gotta it's gotta be hit quite well 'cause he's usually going into a righties, you know, right into their pocket. Or the old, you know, the Rafa, the the buggy whip, get that thing high, cross court, deep, reset. And that's the stuff that you you know, a lot of tennis players learn that at a time when when Ben was under center. It's it's I you know, I I

I've seen him, you know, a a handful of times in person now, like as far back, I think maybe 2021, 2022, Miami Open when he lost to Musetti, or he played Musetti. I don't remember who won the match. I happen to be in Australia for his for his match against Tommy Paul, I think in the 2023 Australian Open. I was in the I was in the building. I just it was it was fantastic. And then I've seen him a few times since then. It's like you can see the progression happening and yet

Matt Futterman (57:13.555)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (57:26.641)
you still wonder, like, is it is it going to be enough at the end of the day? And so I I mean, we're probably saying a lot of the same things. I'm I'm I'm giving credit to the work that he's put in and the and the the the incremental progress he's made as a tennis player. But unfortunately the two other guys in his cohort have have risen that bar. The bar is quite high at this point. It's extremely high. last thing before you get out of here, we've had we've had a lot of your time. we are

Both both Pat and I are, you know, Hodar believers, if you will. And, you know, one of my many things to do while I was in DC, no pretty high on my list when I saw that I'd be there for for Hodar versus who'd he play in the second round? He played Arthur Fees. I made a point of watching that entire match. Was it for it was first round. That's our second day, first round. Yeah. I was telling people next to him like

Matt Futterman (58:16.095)
That was first round. It was crazy. It should have been a f it should have been a final.

Alvin Owusu (58:23.252)
the w we're all here in this in this insanely hot weather and it's packed on this side court effectively because we all know that this is something very rare and and special. and I I I felt like getting to see him, you know, I watched him practice before that and then went to the match and I watched another match of his later on, like getting a feel for his game. Like it is it's it's he is as special as I thought he was watching him on television, seeing him in person.

Is he do you feel that the tennis public is starting to come around to him? Because I know some reports have been of he's a little n short with media at times or short with fans at times.

Matt Futterman (59:08.909)
I mean, I think they will come around. I think he's look, what are we in w what yeah, but and and what are we we're in August and eight months ago this guy was a Virginia Cavalier, was a freshman at the University of Virginia. Okay? And by the way, he had like I think he had like a three five GPA there. He was I mean, he didn't expect to leave after five months. He was like

Alvin Owusu (59:13.566)
twenty or something like that.

Alvin Owusu (59:20.178)
Right. Which is wild.

Matt Futterman (59:35.082)
in it for a year, maybe two years, and he just got like ri and was working, got really good really quickly, and then did well in the next gen finals. And then it just became like, yeah, this is too good an opportunity to pass up. So he's really raw both. I think he's somewhat raw he's a lot less raw than a lot of people tennis-wise, but he's a little raw in terms of like public persona. We were talking about how challenging it is

I mean, you're suddenly in this I I'm pretty glad I wasn't in the spotlight at nineteen years old like this. I'm pretty I'm pretty glad I didn't have microphones in front of me. that I wasn't on camera, that people weren't you know like catching me when I was like, you know, smacking my racket against a fence, at times, like

Alvin Owusu (01:00:09.918)
Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Parr (01:00:10.952)
Heh.

Matt Futterman (01:00:27.861)
Yeah, these people are really young. They've got a lot on them. One of my main goals in this book was to come at was to come at it with a tremendous amount of empathy because being a tennis player, doing one thing from the time you're eight years old for the most part, Ben Shelton aside, and a couple others aside, is a lot of pressure. So and it's a weird childhood. They don't grow up quote unquote normally. So yeah, I I think

You gotta give a certain amount of grace. and i you know, you gotta give a certain amount of grace. I I'd been with Hodar a fair amount among the media these days like in the last few months. was with him in Madrid, Paris, London, now in D C. He's fine, okay? Like he he's fine. Is he is he

Alvin Owusu (01:01:00.883)
sure. sure, yeah.

Matt Futterman (01:01:20.883)
unbelievably like charming in his second language. That's kind of a lot to ask, I think, for a nineteen year year old. He's like perfectly fine. He's a but he's you know, he's kind of straight laced and kind of rigid. You know, not everybody is Carlos Alcaraz and you know walks into the Wimbledon press room wearing a bucket hat and you know waddles in like it's no like like though he's got the world in his palm. That's not who Hodar is. Maybe he will be eventually but it's not

Patrick Parr (01:01:37.438)
Mm.

Matt Futterman (01:01:50.79)
Who he is right now. As for the tennis, I mean, like I I saw him for the first time in person in Madrid. I think my f the the Fonseca match, the Hodar Fonseca spectacle, was my introduction to Rafael Hodar, what an introduction it was, and then saw him in Paris and then on the grass. I will say

Alvin Owusu (01:02:00.778)
Wolf, yeah.

Patrick Parr (01:02:01.42)
wow.

Patrick Parr (01:02:08.882)
Ha ha.

Matt Futterman (01:02:15.329)
I mean, I had a rather high opinion of him. The other night was my first time seeing him on a hardcourt and my reaction was, shit, this guy this is like that serve on a hard court

flies. I I I mean, you just that serve is gonna handcuff people forever. He can move on a hard court in a way that that like when he's not slipping, I mean he gets in and out of corners like center does at times. incredible court coverage. You know, his ball strike is just so solid. The the the ball just flies off his racket. So yeah I I mean if he's a stock I am absolutely

buying right now, I can tell you that much.

Patrick Parr (01:03:02.622)
Would you say the other players are also bringing up Hodar? Like if you hear them on the side, are they worried about him in a way?

Matt Futterman (01:03:13.493)
I mean, after Feast after the Feast match I w I you know, was sitting with Feast for a little while and I was like, That's kind of a tough draw and he looked at me like and he was just like that is a very tough draw and he was just like shaking his head. Yeah, I mean they know how good they know how good he is. there's no he's not sneaking up on anybody at this point. So yeah, I think he's he's I mean

Patrick Parr (01:03:27.739)
You

Alvin Owusu (01:03:39.508)
Yeah.

Matt Futterman (01:03:43.618)
Who knows? And that and that's just an example of we were getting you know, we were talking earlier about the challenge of the book and choosing players. I mean the sport moves so quickly. You know, I I'm gonna be honest with you, I didn't know Raphael Hadoz Howard's name until the next gen finals. So I had no idea who he was, and all of a sudden he's

Patrick Parr (01:04:00.787)
Yep.

Matt Futterman (01:04:04.651)
you know, I don't know, he wa I think he was like the third favorite to win the French Open or something like that. I mean it was so i I mean and you know, I think he's a threat to win any any tournament any draw he's in at this point.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:10.599)
Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Parr (01:04:10.878)
Yeah

Alvin Owusu (01:04:20.425)
I I I agree. And I'm glad you I'm glad you gave the the human the human perspective on him and I I brought that up not because it matters to me. I'm very, you know, if anyone has listened to this podcast before, they know that I could care less about a player's personality. I'm I I'm here to talk about their production as a tennis player and you know, it is put into perspective that he is nineteen. He is in his second language. A year ago, none of us knew who he was unless you were an ACC tennis fan, right?

well Virginia's still in the ACC, right? Maybe, maybe. Okay, okay, just checking. Never you never know these days. but you know, he he like Eva Yovich, like they were not with us last year, they're with us now. And tennis does move quite quickly. But what I saw in DC, you know, we've been we've been banging the drum for on Hodar for the last four months here. what I saw was like a stock four, like just that has plenty of room for upgrades. And even the stock four is a problem.

Matt Futterman (01:04:52.928)
It is.

Patrick Parr (01:04:53.992)
think so, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:05:19.581)
by itself. he's I I with someone that size, he moves so well. His footwork is impeccable. And I think you mentioned his serve. I think his first serve is actually an area of improvement that he can he can add pop to that first serve. He can get he c he will be able to get himself out of service games a lot easier in the next d eighteen, twenty-four months. And I just see the future in front of him and I go

Look, everyone just buckle up. He's he is he is with us. He is here. He he is one of those ones that will be pushing our sport forward in the next few years. but I I think we can we can probably put a pin in it there. Matt, I appreciate you coming on. Again, the cruelest game, August fourth, real soon. Everyone go out, pre order it, buy it. it's a great read. any any final thoughts, gentlemen?

Patrick Parr (01:06:12.926)
I want to know if the book cover that Matt chose is if that's his racket that's broken. I thought...

Matt Futterman (01:06:20.993)
That is it it it's it's not actually my racket, but but but it could be my racket. and I and I w and I will say I I will say one thing that was kind of important to me is you know, if you see on the cover th there is a broken racket floating, but the shadow of it is not a broken racket. It's a it's sort of like a perfect silhouette of a racket. So I t I thought

Alvin Owusu (01:06:28.009)
Looks like a head speed.

Matt Futterman (01:06:49.163)
that sort of showed the you know, the two sides of the sport, the euphoria of the sport, the agony and the ecstasy of it. it's subtle, but I'm real happy with it. I'm happy with the way it came out. My wife said, Why isn't it green? And I w and I said, like hard courts aren't green anymore And this is you know, so and she don't she goes to the US Open every year, so she knows, but

Patrick Parr (01:06:56.946)
Mmm.

I love it.

Patrick Parr (01:07:09.278)
There we go.

Matt Futterman (01:07:15.915)
But that was it, you know, I thought like the and I I you know, I do like the blue. I think it's yeah, it it came out well. So thanks. And I appreciate your support of it.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:24.116)
Yeah, and so and and and so did the book. I you know, before we came on, I mentioned like it it it feels like our version, the tennis version of Bill Simmons' book of basketball, just in a in a much more consumable format. I think you did a I think you did a fantastic job. Thank you so much for writing it, and also thank you for joining us on the best of three podcasts. So we'll put a pin in it there. Matt, Pat, thank you very much. We are out.

Patrick Parr (01:07:26.366)
you

Patrick Parr (01:07:41.096)
Thank