Alvin Owusu (00:00.552)
And welcome to another edition of the Best of Three Podcasts. I'm Alvin. That's Tory TH. We back, baby. We are back. Feel like we went on summer vacation. Got got fresh. Spent a we spent a little time apart. You know, distance makes the heart grow fonder. Now we're back. back from DC. You're you've just wrapped up your intense season. we got a lot to talk about today, but first and foremost, my friend, how how are you doing?

Torrey (00:06.33)
Back. Yes, sir. Yeah. Yeah. Yep, yep.

Torrey (00:20.453)
Yeah.

Torrey (00:24.931)
You what, Alvin, I'm doing well. I was just telling some of the coaches with Intents that, you know, it was a hot and heavy two months. I have got big shout out to Team Rips. My team miss already. I I felt like you know, like any team you have that that you work with, that you're part of, that you coach, it's like it's it's bittersweet when the end of the season comes, you know what mean? Because you know you may not see some of them for a while or or, you know, for at least an extended period time, but we you know saw each other every day. We were, you know,

We were inseparable for you know for that two months or so. And so it was a great season. It really really ended well. Long story. I'm doing I'm doing well, but I I miss my team and I miss I miss intense a little bit, but it was a great season, great thing to be a part of and can't wait till next year. And how about you, my friend? How was D C and how was well how hot was it? I know the tennis was good, but how hot was it compared to here and give me the quick rundown.

Alvin Owusu (01:15.941)
boy. boy.

Yeah. Well far I mean on the intense bit, we're gonna we're gonna circle back to that one at the back end of today's show. getting your getting your kind of your breakdown on, you know, working with professional players of what we consider probably the challenger level, trying to get into the next level. it's a very unique experience. Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey (01:24.899)
Yeah.

Torrey (01:30.734)
Sure. Sure. Some yeah, some some some all over. And I think that's important. We'll we'll talk about that later on. But you know, many right at the Grand Slam level, albeit maybe some years a few years ago. And I mean my my top two players one played the French this year and one played Australia this year. I mean so their main draw. So cer certainly of the level and I'd say I'd say yes about

Alvin Owusu (01:50.723)
There you go.

Torrey (01:56.086)
about a good half, maybe a third of them are playing at the challenger level, and the other maybe two thirds are playing at the futures and you know and and lower challenger level for the women. But but definitely a high level and you know, we'll talk about later, but but high level, great level of tennis to be sure. And I honestly think that level they're going to start attracting a even higher level over the next season or so as the word gets out. So

Alvin Owusu (02:20.333)
Sure. okay. D D C. You asked me how was DC? DC was a DC was fantastic. it's you know, I'll I'll kind of talk a little bit about my experience and then we'll get into the tennis specifically. I think we're gonna spend a lot of time talking about the women's champion, Alex Eala and the men's runner up, Mr. Rafael Jodar but DC was fantastic. Spent a lot of time I s I was there for two and a half days.

Torrey (02:41.153)
Raphael.

Alvin Owusu (02:47.965)
met some best of three listeners. met a quite a few of them actually. Shout out to shout out to Tim. Tim spotted me at the at the Hodar feast match. kind of kind of caught me on my heels. He's like, hey man, I'm I'm like, you talking to me? He's like, yeah, I'm talking to you. I love the love the podcast. And I was like, it was kind of a it was a weird, a weird, awesome moment. I don't think anyone's ever ever that was the first of that was the first time someone's ever noticed one of us, I think. Well, yeah, especially at a tennis event. but that was great.

Torrey (02:56.556)
Nice.

huh.

Torrey (03:06.476)
Yeah, nice.

Alvin Owusu (03:16.331)
DC in itself, going to tennis tournaments now is I've also I've often equated them to going to a music festival, right? But I think that's probably reserved best for the Grand Slams and maybe even the Masters One Thousands. DC men's and women's straw, at a public facility. it's like it's in a public facility that's on, you know, land owned by the I think the Forest Service, National Forest Service. it's in the wood it's in the woods in the hood. And well kind of. It's yeah, kinda, kinda half of it.

Torrey (03:27.084)
Sure. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (03:46.402)
But it's more like I treated it more like a conference this time, right? You go to any conference, you have your keynote speakers, you have your sessions, and you have your your networking stuff, right? The matches for me were the keynotes. They were a couple matches that I felt like I needed to be there for. I needed to I needed to feel it, I needed to get something for it. First Yeah. First and foremost was the Hodar feast match. Like I I sat there from I was at Hodar's practice before the match for an hour.

Torrey (03:49.801)
Right.

Torrey (03:56.641)
Right.

Torrey (04:03.092)
Right. Right. And and and you check in and and and and take take a few notes and

Alvin Owusu (04:16.385)
saw feast hit for like the last 15 minutes of his practice and then I went to the and then I went to the match and I was there five rows back, dead center. I was locked in. and got everything I needed to get out of that match. And we'll talk about the the our hodar thoughts a little bit later. and then the the bulk of my time was spent in sessions at practices. got a chance to, you know, watch Leighton Hewitt play practice and kind of see some side by side differences of, you know.

Torrey (04:25.973)
Right.

Torrey (04:32.096)
Right.

Torrey (04:39.038)
But

Alvin Owusu (04:45.079)
Former ATP forehand versus new school ATP forehand, which is we dropped something on Instagram just kind of highlighting the differences there. But it's it was cool to watch

Torrey (04:47.167)
Right.

Torrey (04:53.907)
I like that. I like that thing you mentioned on that Instagram post. That was nice. It w

Alvin Owusu (04:56.979)
Yeah, it's it was just kinda like, you know, I'm everyone's watching. A lot of people are, you know, at the practice courts, but I, you know, I think we at best of three provide a slightly different perspective and view on the same things that everyone else is looking at. So that's kind of the yeah, it's kind of the best of three promise, right? We are all gonna watch the same things and then you can come here and hear what our perspective is on that and we will not we will try not to water that down or sugarcoat that. That's I think that's the value we provide, right?

Torrey (05:22.415)
Right. Right.

Sure, sure. Be be true to that, you know what I mean? And yeah, a hundred percent.

Alvin Owusu (05:26.283)
So be true to that. Be true to that. And so yeah, and then you know, spent some spent a really good amount of time watching one of Ben Shelton's practices, got a chance to talk to Brian for a good bit after we were talking a lot about backhand slice technique and and target progression and y yeah, it was it was good and you know, shots to Brian and obviously you're you're friends with him and it was just kind of good.

Torrey (05:38.641)
No.

Yeah.

Torrey (05:49.244)
Yeah. Brian had a nasty slice back in there. For as good as his two hander was, he had a nasty slice back and he came in a lot and people don't realize how much he came forward, so he seemed so laid back in a mild manner, but he he was coming at a lot. Ironically, a lot like Hodar. He played a lot like Rafael a little bit he back back in his day, so it was kinda funny to see him. maybe even a bigger serve back in the day, you know, maybe not as maybe not as versatile from from the back, but anyway, long long story. I I I digress, but keep going.

Alvin Owusu (06:15.671)
Yeah, but it was a yeah, it was it w it was nice to you know, it's always good to check in and see what little changes players are making, what their points of emphasis are, especially at this point of the year, early in the summer hardcourt swing, as we move closer and closer to the the culmination of the US Open at the end of the summer here. but yeah, good to spend time, you know, seeing things in practice, seeing what they were working on. been specific, I spent an hour

right there more or less on the court with them. so it was yeah, but DC was fantastic. I'm looking forward to going back next year. I think TH is time for the it's time for the people. The people wanna see you. They they don't mind me, but they really show up for you.

Torrey (06:49.082)
Nice. Nice.

Torrey (06:54.18)
Yeah. I'd love man, I love I'd love to get there next year. You know what I mean? It was obviously with the with the timing of it with intense finishing up, it was kind of a weird w crazy last weekend. long story, love to. Let's let's let's as you often say, let's let's put a pen on that. I I will be there next year and I wanna definitely experience have been to DC in years. have been to the tournament in years.

Love to get back and obviously I see it every year, but I haven't haven't been bit, right? there to kind of check it out. So I'm looking forward to that. Tell me, I know you want to speak a little bit about Alex Ayala. Tell me about what your thoughts are for the young lady. I personally feel like there are a lot of things she's improved on in the last year. I do feel like, you know, and and and I and I'm kind of kind of looking at this through a couple different lenses. Number one, she's got a lot to still work on.

Alvin Owusu (07:30.625)
Yeah.

Torrey (07:49.694)
On. that second serve speed, Alvin, it's gotta has gotta tick up. I think I was one of the commentators may have mentioned it. I noticed it myself straight away. Average speed of 67 miles an hour. You know, there's that's that's a liability, period. No, there's there's no way to sugarcoat that. Her actual first serve, however, has gotten a lot better. Her slice out wide might be one of the nastiest lefty slices on the women's tour. and I and there's been some good lefties we've had over the last 10-20 years, and her

That served out why is money. The other pieces of her game, I feel like her backhand is short up, and her ability to control things through the meat of the court. Right? I'm talking eight feet either way of center is just phenomenal. She knows her game, she knows her forehand, she truly dictates play with balls she can get to.

Having said that, if she can't get to said ball, she's getting a little better at the counter-strike, a little bit wider the court, but she often, in my opinion, has to lean a little too much into red line on the outside wings. And that also a liability, because I would that could be ball one. That could be ball two. I mean, she's not a great mover per se. However, she is maximizing her skill set. She is, man, fun to watch.

And if I put her on the same track as say Coco Golf, right? I felt it took Coco three years too long to address serve issues, to address forehand, to address, you know, I felt Alex's backhand. A year ago I thought Alex's backhand was a was a gaping hole. I thought her serve was awful and her and her backhand was very suspect. Her backhand is solid now. Her serve's gotten better. So I feel like I'm being harsh in a sense I I would say coaching realistic. I I I just always look at things from a standpoint of can it get better? Can it be short of?

Not necessarily harsh on the person. It's more, hey, this is your game, this is what we've got to fix. And I feel like she has she's improved and I and I use the example of Coco very, very, very, you know, loosely and yet similar at the same time. I'm putting her in very high category and very high company. She is getting a lot better very quickly. And I have to say, hence her meteoric rise over this last year. But I feel like more can be done, but she's come a long way.

Torrey (10:10.006)
How much more is going to be the question? How much more can she dip in that tank? But her, she's she's made significant strides in shoring up her backhand, her backhand return. We knew she had a big foreign. We knew she liked her for him. She's left. I mean, she's does a lot of things. Can she shored those things up beautifully and really, really impressive in the short time she's done it? And with all the top quality, top 10 wins she's had, you know she's tested now.

Can she continue to improve some of the other things and and really keep making some strides? That's what I saw. What what about yourself?

Alvin Owusu (10:45.066)
Okay, so I think it's there's probably two conversations to be had here, right? And I'm gonna kind of this is per the per the usual. I'm gonna zoom out a little bit here and talk about like what Alex Yala actually means to to tennis. And I'm gonna go even a little bit further out. with Carlos Alcaraz coming back, we have all started to get a little excited that Carlos is coming back, right? Because it feels like we've missed him. It's like, well, why do we why do we miss him? Because we are all kind of connected in this thing, right? Like the the

Torrey (10:57.303)
That's that's that's a good point. Right.

Right.

Sure. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (11:12.448)
tennis tour n is not only the players and the coaches and the tour tournament organizers, but it's also the fans and we our expectations of the players are kind of based upon the players that are there and what they you know how they compete with each other. So what I I say that to say, Alex Ayala over the past eighteen months, right, has had a a major impact on the tour on on tennis. you cannot deny her her impact

Torrey (11:26.56)
Sure.

Torrey (11:36.533)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (11:41.847)
through the way of shining light on a tennis community that has previously not gotten any attention from the Philippines, right? she is you know it's not like she's a a flute player from anywhere, right? She's she was a very high level junior, has been at the Nadal Academy forever. like anyone who's been following kind of high level junior tennis over the last three years knew of her coming and then she arrived last year. I think it was Miami. Was it Miami she had the scene or Indian Wells, somewhere like that. yeah

Torrey (11:47.198)
Hundred percent.

Torrey (11:54.697)
Sure.

Torrey (12:03.071)
Sure.

Torrey (12:07.113)
But yeah, I think so. Miami was definitely the first one.

Alvin Owusu (12:11.304)
And then so like it but to your point about, you know, the impact she has on tennis and off court is very palpable, right? Which makes it kind of hard. It was difficult for me to get a good feel for her game without being kind of distracted by all of that. And yes, yes, at DC she was getting she gets the best court assignments, because she is very popular. But when you when you allow yourself to look

Torrey (12:28.337)
Right. Separating the height from the substance. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (12:38.956)
past that and the fans that follow her and she's quite infectious her personality is. what you start to see, and this is from watching her practice for 30 minutes and then watching, you know, probably one and a half sets of her play over the course of the week in person, two matches at home, to the part about like her game and then what she needs to fix from a coaching standpoint, I really think it's there's a missing part there. It's her game and what she will be able like how she will win matches. And then based upon that,

Torrey (12:41.746)
Right.

Yeah.

Torrey (12:59.484)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (13:08.01)
you start talking about what she needs to what she needs to work on. She is going to be what she's going to be, right? She is she's not a s exactly. Every player has their kind of their more or less their playstyle destiny in front of them, right? She is not she's not small. She is a lot taller than you think she is. Like she the way she plays and fights and moves, you would think she's smaller, kind of like Layla, but she is not. She's closer to like five nine. Like I walked past her and I was like

Torrey (13:11.877)
Okay. Yeah. All all of them will be.

Torrey (13:27.283)
Mm, I can see that.

Torrey (13:35.698)
Right, right. She I I that's what I would thought. That that's what I would that's what I would have thought. Right. She she has that Orange Sanchez Vicario kind of vibe and she's probably closer to Coco in height. Right.

Alvin Owusu (13:37.93)
Huh, she's she's bigger than Right.

Yeah, yeah. She's she's definitely taller than think. and when I'm watching her play, I'm like, yeah, there's a lot of stuff there that I'm not overly impressed with. Like you you watch her hit volleys, it's very rudimentary, it's nothing you're gonna write home about. the second serve I think comes up a lot. And yes, the serve speed is slow, but she makes it very difficult to attack when she's being intentional. I saw at one point when she was playing Jessica Pagola. no.

Torrey (13:58.278)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (14:14.71)
playing Naomi that she had won ninety percent of points off her second serve. With a second serve, you know, right around sixty something miles an hour.

Torrey (14:20.434)
Yeah.

Sixty sixty six sixty something. Which which I would say Naomi Osaka needs to be whooped for letting that slide. And I and to your point, maybe there's something more there. You know, we we may we may agree or disagree. I I saw parts of that match and I was like, What the heck are you doing? And and how many more balls are you gonna hit to her forehand off a second server turn? Another talk show. But tell me what you saw. Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (14:33.216)
Well, specifically sp

Alvin Owusu (14:46.494)
No, no, it's it's this talk show. Like you say, not gonna let that slide. Specifically, Naomi was letting her hit that slider low in a way. And Alex does a really good job of somewhat protecting that second serve by not letting you hit through it. Like she's gonna she's not hitting a kicker all the time, right? It's usually a low slide fade. And that thing you have to especially to a righty to their back end, you've gotta pick that up, right? And if you're gonna pick that up, you're gonna go over the low part of the net, generally, that's gonna go right back into her.

Torrey (14:59.515)
Yeah.

Right.

Torrey (15:06.339)
Yep, yep, yep.

You got you gotta hit up. Sure, you gotta hit up.

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (15:16.502)
forehand and now somehow she's dictating play off of a sixty-six mile an hour second serve, right? So it's it I saw what I saw on the back end of the the Pagula match was sorry, the back end of the Osaka match was very similar to the last, you know, set and a half of the Pagula match. She she puts these players in a bit of a in a bit of a mental shackle, right? Because there's no one that really plays like her on tour. And it's it's it she forces you to come up with

Torrey (15:17.371)
Sure.

Right. Sure.

Torrey (15:39.599)
Yeah.

Sure.

Alvin Owusu (15:46.312)
some very difficult shots and very difficult positions, which also protects her. One. And then

Torrey (15:51.04)
Yeah. Yeah. I I I I would say you're overstating it. I would say it's awkward more than difficult, but I I know what you're saying and I agree with you in theory. Keep keep going. I I I'm I I I see what you're going through. There you go. Not not because it's impossible or hard, just awkward and un and uncharacteristic. You don't see it often awkward. Not you can't handle it awkward and and that's part of the that's part of the

Alvin Owusu (16:01.875)
Yeah, okay. Difficult difficult because it's awkward. Difficult because because it's awkward.

Torrey (16:20.587)
Je ne sais quoi, that is Blake Alex Yala. You know what I Keep keeping. I I don't wanna steal your thunder.

Alvin Owusu (16:24.083)
Right. Right. No, but that's the big thing though. Like it it's if you are a player that does not play like a lot of other players, you but you are always playing like yourself, one, and two, everyone else is kind of playing the same. You get very you get a lot of reps on trying to hurt in the same way where your opponent does not get a lot of reps of being hurt in that way. And y

Torrey (16:38.777)
Hundred percent.

Torrey (16:43.97)
Hundred percent. You you are the disruptor in that in that sense. And and I said the same thing about Melanie Udam when she made a a nice run. You know, she was the only person that had a slice backhand or that used it quite often. But against all the bigger, taller, hard hitting Russians. She was not gonna allow herself to be to to get into a pace war with those girls and they just kept over hitting and and and they weren't gonna come forward and she had good passes when they did. So to your point, it was it was

It was the game style she ch she had that happened to match up well. Now, and I love Melanie. We talked with this, we talked about this often, and congrats to Melanie Dan, by the way, for her recent job at the US C A. Hopefully we're good on the pod soon. But like Melanie, I wonder, will she have while she has great while she had a great run there in the quarters of US Open, and I think round of sixteen win be one year. I'm wondering the same thing long term.

Alex being a maybe a better version and and hopefully a little more staying power down the road. Mel Mel had some health issues. Is it going to have staying power once people figure out the awkward? And I think that's where I'm at with it. She does she does two things really well. She she does several things really well. She does two things really well. She hurts you with the backhand that you do go there from time to time.

Making you feel like, well, that's not a hole. I need to go back to the forehand. She punishes you with said forehand and and literally will yank you off the court in either direction. So and as far as off of the plus one on the serve, she literally, in my opinion, starts off with a weakness, but has the back has the ground the plus one so short up that it almost looks like a play and a tactic. The second thing she does well, she hammers returns.

She takes advantage of every second serve you hit, right? And therefore, for the first three or four shots at every point, dare I say Ega-esque, she is lethal off the return plus one, maybe even return plus two. Now, get deeper into the rally. Hit a little bigger ball. Hit a ball right to her. Hit a ball that backs her up. And she's very mortal in that sense. Now that's that's the

Torrey (19:00.265)
Case with all tennis players, isn't We all we all do one or two things decently well. this is by no means a critique or and certainly not meant to be I'm not come off as harsh. I'm just being the coach in me wants to look at her now inching inside the top ten in the world. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, is she going top ten? I I think she's kind of getting closer now to twenty. Sorry, sorry, top, top twenty. I I was thinking of she's inching into top twenty status. Now she's going to be, you know, tested. She's going to be

Alvin Owusu (19:19.669)
She's at well, she's a twenty. She twenty as of today, yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah.

Torrey (19:29.914)
seated. She's gonna come up against all those players who she w were a year ago, they would have been upset. So now she's that player. So I'm putting her in the same category now with the inbokos, with the what's what's my what's my girl, Eva Yovic, you know, with the, you know, players that are starting to make that kind of headway. Now with Noskova and others that are starting to really, you know, the younger players that are really starting to kind of come up and take and take notice,

And I'm w and I'm just wondering, will her game have that level of push, that level of will it have that level of upside to get her there? And I think that's you mentioned about her serve and it's kind of slow and kind of low and it kind of tails away. I get all I get all that. It reminds me more of a ta of a ploy than a tactic and a strategy. And and that's kind of where I'm getting at. Is it something that's gonna be it's gonna have the staying power down the road once people kind of figure it out? I swear, half the time I was wondering, did

Did Naomi forget that she's left-handed? I mean, I I kept watching some of her matches. I'm like, by the way, you know she's left-handed. There were there were matches, I even saw some of the Queen the Chung Queen Lin match, you know, and who looked very out of form. But there were two points a game when she clocked one and just put and just put my girl Alex on her heels and and and and she had no answer. And a little ugly on the tennis side as far as quality of ball striking, you could tell that.

That Queen Lynn has not been not as sharp as she's been in in in past years. But when she caught it, I actually felt like she had some of the better tactics against Alex. and and really showed if I just go through you like I would anybody else, you know, and not try to match up on a certain side, you I'm let's let me bring the fight to you. And it really showed me that she had a lot a few more holes where I thought Naomi's match was a little more disappointing in the sense that she almost hit into Alex's game, which is again feather in Alex's cap.

to to be to have a game hit in two, right? But and she knows her game. I just again and same with Jessica. That match was two was two different matches. The first day and first set match when she's coming forward, moving off the court, knocking off volleys, I'm like, psh, this is six three all day. You know what I mean? Start the strike, miss a few more first serves, stay on the stay on the baseline. You know, y sh she literally, she literally was like it was a tale of two matches, in in that sense, and I was very

Torrey (21:53.063)
I'm not gonna see disappointed. I was it was it was tough to see such a disparity in the two days. go ahead.

Alvin Owusu (21:59.915)
So that's a real that's no, that's a really, really good point because you on this podcast, you have previously stated that if someone is playing a grand slam, right? Two weeks worth of tennis, you are gonna have days where you play your best tennis, you're gonna have days where you play not your best tennis, and you're gonna have a lot of days where you kind of play in the middle, right? And I think that's the thing. Like if you start to look at the losses that that Alex takes, she gets she g she gets thunk pretty good. Like if you can if you if you're there for it on that day.

Torrey (22:14.785)
In between.

Alvin Owusu (22:28.85)
And you have the tools, you can go through her, right? But if it's you know, a ninety-five degree day in July in Washington, DC, and it's hotter than hell outside, and you're a little weary and it's a little it's been a long week and you're just not there, yeah. That's the kind of thing that could really frustrate you and you don't have the you know, maybe the mental reserve left to kind of like get through that. You just go, the hell with it. I'm going to, I'm going to Canada. We're out of here. and she'll she'll

Torrey (22:30.011)
Right. for sure.

Torrey (22:41.21)
Right.

Torrey (22:51.268)
Right. Right.

Yeah. On on to the next one. Sure, sure.

Alvin Owusu (22:58.566)
On to the next one. She'll get a lot of those wins, right? But when you start seeing the la the losses that she takes, it's she'll lose to Noskova, right? She'll lose to Muhova. I mean, these are losses that she has she has racked up this year. Like good players will just go through her. Rebecca's beaten her like two and or two and one, something like that. But then also also, she has beaten a lot of those players. She has beaten Iga. She has beaten Rebecca. She beaten Coco. She's beaten J Pal. Like it's like I think that the Pagula match was a perfect example of

Torrey (23:12.193)
right. That that's that's that's all I was saying. Per per

Alvin Owusu (23:27.696)
on one day half of the match, Jessica had it like she had the game plan on lock, execution on lock, weird delays, yada yada yada, come back the next day a little okay. And now like w the the one thing Alex does is she kinda stays the same all the time.

Torrey (23:34.159)
Man.

Torrey (23:43.908)
Correct. Her game travels well. Her tactics are locked in. Again, she maximizes what she does well. And she plays to her strengths, period, which is what you always want to do. So, like I said, I want to make sure the fans understand and the listeners understand. I am a huge Alexiala fan. I have loved this young lady since she came out. I love the breath of fresh air she brings with her, all the Filipino nation with her. I love, I love that. I love the whole multicultural aspect of it.

Alvin Owusu (23:51.113)
Yes.

Alvin Owusu (23:55.956)
Right.

Torrey (24:13.945)
love it. I mean, could not be more ecstatic for that surge. The tennis coach in me is always looking for how do we sustain this? And how do one good match, one good tournament is not a career make? So, how do we get you to do this more often to where it is a little more like clockwork? A lot of matches, Alvin on the tour, you will beat a person, right? You will, we talk about the five words.

You know, she is she's playing well right now. She's doing that. And so it's okay to lose to you. Right. And then you have a nice little sentence. You get top 20. You got top ten. You get to this point where, okay. And then the book is out on you. Right? And those is I don't know the number of words there, but that's that's what you don't necessarily want unless you have the goods to back it up. When the book is out on you, people know how to play you. I think last year her backhand was such a sieve.

That she that people knew, I'll just play the backhand. Her forehand, she's based, she runs around, but you know if you run her a little bit here, get you a backhand, she, you you can break her down almost like a good junior. Well, now that backhand's not such a sieve anymore. It's actually pretty much a lockdown. Now the forehand, she can dictate more. And she's not just all in running around returns and smacking forehands on the returns. So now you've had to kind of change the book a little bit. And I think that's where some of these players are at. And you don't see her quite that often yet. You haven't played her a whole lot.

Now over the course of the next year, you will. She'll play off a full schedule. She'll get into all those things, main draw. She'll be seated. You'll start seeing her. You'll start watching the players play her. There'll be plenty of YouTube videos and and scouting and the WTA highlights for you to take a look at her. And that's now the real work starts, in my opinion, because now you've got a chance to see her live and more often to see how she matches up to different players. So that's kind of where I feel like her her next progression, her next iteration.

comes and I'm looking forward to it. She's improved a ton so far. So I have no doubt to think that she won't continue to improve and keep getting better at that. So that's as I say, I'm I'm a huge fan. I'm I'm I'm here for I'm here for it. Love love to see where this I love to be talking to you a year from now saying, wow, how much has she improved over the last year? And in in my opinion, I I think she's had it a really good

Alvin Owusu (26:34.996)
Yeah, and I I think I think the key is like when we start talking about what do we like where is she going? Is this sustainable? It's like you gotta look at it through the lens of I think, okay, can she be a top X player? Like is she I think I think she's shown that okay, your ranking is a reflection of what you're able to do over the course of fifty two weeks, right? And that's not just that's not a reflection of like your best tennis. Like it is it's not a rate it's not a rating system. It's like it's like what can you do

Torrey (26:54.881)
Correct.

Torrey (27:01.12)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (27:03.026)
S what can you sustain over a year's period? Your greats out. Right, exactly.

Torrey (27:05.408)
Correct. Take take your bads out, conglomerate of your goods. Where are where where you know pin put a you know, give give me give give me an aggregate, so to speak, you know, on where I'm at. Hundred percent. Hundred percent.

Alvin Owusu (27:17.97)
You are what your ranking says you are. And I think I think she will always be once she hits her, I think she's starting to hit her what I'm gonna be on tour kind of kind of phase. I think she will always be a top twenty player because she can do this week in, week out, right? I do think that top ten will be a I think that's the stretch goal. I think stretch goal. But ten to twenty, I think that's where she will probably end up landing. And what does that mean? That means at some point

Torrey (27:27.709)
Right. Right.

I think so. Hundred percent. Hundred percent.

Torrey (27:38.975)
Stretch. Hundred percent. Hundred percent.

Right. Nice nice career.

Alvin Owusu (27:48.862)
Well, nice career, but I also start thinking about the other the other upward limiter, right? It's like, okay, well can she can she win a grand slam? And I go, y under the right circumstances? Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey (27:58.887)
Right. The the draw would have to break just right and and have a few have a few favorable, you know, upsets and whatnot and for her to be left standing. but again, to your point, it's it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility. She has beaten Grand Slam champion. So it's to me it's it's n it's just a matter of k can can the can the draw break favorably in in can can the can the draw break in her favor, is is really what it comes down to. But

Alvin Owusu (28:14.857)
She's beaten a few of She's beaten a few of them.

Alvin Owusu (28:23.059)
I mean she beat she beat three Grand Slam finalists in this tournament, beating the one, two, and three seeds in like in the tournament. Like she beat she beat Junkin win. She beat Osaka who's won Grand Slam. She's beat Pagula who's been the finals at Grand Slam. She's beat Svenolita beat who's been to semifinals at Grand Slam. Like and when you talk about talking about getting into big matches, like she okay, the per Jessica Pagula, let's put it this way. Jessica Pagula, twelve, ten, eleven years older, right?

Torrey (28:26.332)
In the term. Sure. Sure.

Torrey (28:36.902)
Right. Well.

Torrey (28:49.724)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (28:50.983)
We wouldn't have said the same thing about Jessica when Jessica was twenty one, right? We start th talking about like what can a what can a player do in ten years on tour? Like

Torrey (28:53.973)
hundred percent. Hundred percent.

And and that's what I love about her and and I know you're gonna talk about Raphael in a little bit. That's that's the upside. That's why I said I I wasn't mentioning the the the Coco you know analogy loosely. She loosely in terms of upside potentially, but not but certainly in the same level and and as a it's a compliment to Alex Yala for sure, in what she's been able to accomplish in less time.

And I think that's what I'm saying. And you can't you can't have more upside than Coco Golf, in my opinion. And you can't you couldn't have burst on the scene any any faster. You know what I mean? You know, there's literally, you know, right between the w S C and the E N E is Coco Golf, right? I mean, she's literally within the font, you know. So I I just feel like I just feel like Alex is on a great track. She's doing some phenomenal things. She's

Is that she knows what she does well and she leans on that. And I love that about a player. And and you you can't you just can't say enough about that going into a match that you she knows her and she knows what she's gonna do. She knows her options, and that's well coached, that's well trained, and it helps you mitigate all of your weaknesses as best you can. And that's that's all you can that's all you can ask from a player. Can you play your game? Can you use your strengths to their weaknesses, right? And can you attack their weakness and and with your strength?

Alvin Owusu (29:55.421)
That's valuable. That's really valuable.

Torrey (30:21.188)
And that that at the end of the day that's that's all you're asking somebody to do.

Alvin Owusu (30:24.007)
I'm doubling back on this a little bit. I don't think I don't think 10's her upper limit. As I start to think about this.

Alvin Owusu (30:31.921)
It's I I I'm actually gonna say the sky is actually the limit because of there are too many things that I look at. It's it's like just like Coco, it's and just like we talk about Ben and just like we talk about Jessica, if you go back ten years talking about Jessica when we weren't talking about Jessica, right? Jessica Pagula is three in the world at age thirty two, I believe, and she's five seven, right? Six years ago we were not talking about Jessica Pagula, right? Okay.

Torrey (30:45.595)
Sure. Sure.

Torrey (30:53.562)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (31:01.287)
when she was twenty seven years old, right? Twenty whatever it was. To say that her that someone who's been this successful this early, twenty years old, second full year on tour, with no points to defend in front of her the rest of the year, I think we're gonna get really get a really good look at what Alex Ayala's top end is actually by the end of this year. And she might damn well be in at the tour finals at the end of the year at this rate. someone who knows themselves

Torrey (31:17.893)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (31:29.915)
And has a certain safety to their game, I actually bank on that like pretty heavily because that's that is the basis of what shows up week in, week out, surface by surface, you know, location by location. and and so the fact that she all she can do right now is continue to add on to that, add and improve, she not ha she doesn't have to get mentally tougher. She doesn't have to learn how to fight harder. She doesn't have to learn how to think in t in tennis matches and strategize her way out of holes. Like she's got that stuff.

Torrey (31:35.429)
Yeah.

Torrey (31:41.85)
Hundred percent.

Torrey (31:46.657)
Right. A add, improve, and and just get more comfortable. Yeah. Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (31:58.91)
That's the kind of stuff I want to build on. And she's also two inches taller than Jessica Bagula. So like the ability to like Jessica is yeah, and lefty. And we consider Jessica to be like a a player who likes to dictate, right? And hit big through the middle. It's like, well, we have someone who's left-handed and bigger who can l effectively do a lot of the same things and needs to get a little

Torrey (32:06.576)
And left it. Yeah.

Torrey (32:12.056)
for sure. For sure. Right.

Torrey (32:19.661)
D dare dare you say the the the two point version who's left handed. So again, I'll Alvin, I I'm again I'm I'm a hundred percent I'm a hundred percent here for what you're selling. I I I get it, I I I stand it. I don't know how much past ten I would give her. right, but but but certain but certainly give her that and that's why that's why I'm you know my I my my miscue on her being top ten. I think she has top ten potential, I think is what I'm getting at. And and there couldn't be a couldn't be a better compliment for

Alvin Owusu (32:24.455)
Right. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (32:33.991)
Me either. I'm just saying maybe it's not maybe ten's not the limit.

Torrey (32:48.562)
for her at that point. and and we'll we'll let we'll let her cook. You know, we'll let her cook and see and see what she does. And and and I'll be I'll be at the table consuming. You know what I mean? And and and look forward to it. She's been just what the tour has needed. Love the diversity in her background. Love how she's embracing her fans and love how they have a a player to root for. And and and you just feel like it's almost like many World Cup-ish when you see these fans come from around the world and they see their player out there. It's it's such a tennis

Alvin Owusu (32:53.331)
We'll let her we'll let her

We'll we'll leave it up to her.

Torrey (33:17.909)
You know, and it we'll talk about this later in the intense part part of the conversation, hopefully down the road. Tennis thrives so much off of the fandom. You know what I mean? It's it's something that I feel like, you know, however that player has has affected you, the fan, right? And sometimes it's often, and it's funny I've because I just spent eight weeks with intense about this. I'm from here, but I trained here. I went to school here, and

Now I'm based out of here. You'll hear every player give you that kind of a story. So the flag next to their name is one part of their fandom. The where they trained is one part of their whole nother part of the fandom. they may be dating somebody who's fairly well known, who's from that part. I mean, you name it. There's all these different layers to to people that know them and follow them and want them to do well. And when they all converge in a match.

You now have a crowd. You now have fans that are supporting you. We all know that a lot of players that like to play in front of the crowd play better with the crowd. And how much crowd are you bringing? Well, Alexiala's bringing the whole stadium with her every time she plays. And so now some term players have have have made the comments of too much fans, you know, too too much, you know, a little too much support. You know what I mean? But that's a good thing. And and and you should never hate that, because that means it's gonna be more eyes on you, that means more.

cameras that means more the game's gonna be more televised. There's just a buzz around that and for and for her and for the fans and for the Filipino people I love it. I think it's an awesome thing and every country should be so lucky as to have a a bright star like like her, you know, that they're rooting and cheering for. And anyway, I just say it to say it's it could only it could only help and and and benefit the game, let alone her.

and and and all the you know as i say a rise in that tide floats all boats so it's gonna be really fun to see and and i guess i guess she's she's got the upside of of a lot more to do there's still a few more things she could work on and the and the level that she's done it on you know has has been is has been quite meteoric. Jessica Bagula is the Stan Varinka in a sense of the tour, right? She did it the long way. She did it the

Alvin Owusu (35:17.672)
We need

Torrey (35:38.94)
The slow and steady, you the little engine that could, so to speak, all the way to that to that top, and hopefully she'll get a grand slam before she calls it a day. and and and that's also a love about tennis, Alvin. You don't have to do it by the time you're 19. You don't have to do it by the time you're you're before you're 20 years old. You can do it by the time you're 27, 28. You can hit stride late. You know, Arena Sabalenka has done it in much like you know, player I I'm I'm gonna for the lack of a better word analogy, I'm gonna say she's done it closer to, you know, in women's

age relative, right? She's done it closer to center than she's done it on on Carlos's timetable. She's done it a little later on in and hit stride after four or five years, you know, so so to speak. And I and and you like that. You like the fact that she's hitting stride, period. But whenever it happened, you all we all knew, and again some some of the fiery types takes a little bit to kind of find them and kind of temper them down a little bit. But I I say it to say there isn't a one size fits all. There's not a and for every stat and for every

typical in every range. There's an outlier, right? There's a there's a there's a disruptor, right? And so I think that, you know, but but Alex is certainly on that new side of things. She really is doing some nice things. And again, I look forward to watching her progress.

Alvin Owusu (36:41.148)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (36:51.164)
And it's not like you're gonna go from like four hundred in the world to number one in the world at age twenty seven. That's that's probably not that's probably not the jump. But like you can you you can get to the best version of yourself later on. That is it. And I will I I will say it's it's you know the more the more engaging and and electrifying players that we have on the tour that move the needle, the better. I will say the the the contingency of of Asian media that showed up to D C

Torrey (36:55.044)
No, right, right. No, no, no nor can't you.

In time. In time. Sure.

Torrey (37:13.628)
Hundred percent.

Torrey (37:18.652)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (37:19.996)
was for for Junkin Wen and for Naomi Osaka and for Alex Ayala is the number one reason why this podcast was not able to get a credential for that event. I say so but I'm not I'm not mad. I'm not mad. Hate the player. Don't hate the player. Hate the game. but this game does recognize game. Let's I we're we're gonna talk to some people. We're sorry. Don't you even worry about that. Don't you even worry about that. let's let's shift gears a bit to someone else who we feel that has

Torrey (37:22.886)
All right. Right.

Torrey (37:29.382)
No

Torrey (37:36.228)
I love it. We'll we'll have to we'll have to get us an Asian correspondent not the term next time.

I love it.

Alvin Owusu (37:49.761)
the world in front of them and that is one Mr. Raphael Hodar. Okay, so Hodar versus Feast was the match that I circled before you know before going to DC when that draw came out. Somehow they were playing in the first round. Let the numbers be what they are. Tough first round for both players. tough day for Mr. Feast because Alex Hod I mean Raphael Hodar is like a boa constrictor, right?

Torrey (37:49.958)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey (38:07.632)
Right. Stop first one. Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (38:18.886)
He's not going to he's not gonna bite your head off, you know, smack you around the court, like go through you, punch you in the th all those all those things that you you've come to see from, you know, like like a like a Carlos, like a a Yannick today. I think he's he's more of a he has a his ball quality is extremely high. His footwork is extremely precise.

Torrey (38:34.746)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (38:45.926)
very active he's very tall and lengt and rangey he has everything it's all there but none of it and i mean this seriously none of it is maximized like it's it's all just framework like well put together framework imagine a house imagine imagine a six thousand square foot house with all the things that you would want but it's all just framed out

Torrey (38:59.758)
I hundred percent.

Alvin Owusu (39:14.568)
It's like, yeah, I know what this house is gonna be. This is gonna be a great house. I can I I can already tell that whoever designed this house did a fantastic job designing this house. And now we just need to add we need to add, we need to put the walls up and the roof on, we need to add finishes. This is gonna be a fantastic house. That's how I felt watching Raphael Hotar. what so that's my that's my that's my first take. Not a take. That was my first takeaway from watching him in person. Like

Torrey (39:22.224)
Sure.

Torrey (39:43.034)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (39:44.477)
can do all the things, somehow does not do anything great. And so when you see him beat players, it's really by s almost suffocating them over time, over the course of a match. Yeah. I give it to you.

Torrey (39:49.539)
Great. Yep.

Torrey (39:56.65)
Yeah. I I think the bulk constrict is a good analogy. I I

Torrey (40:03.66)
You had tasked me to say what does he do well now versus what will he what will he do well or do better in future. I had about seven things on the future list. I could only come up with two right now for what he does well now. And Alvin, it's a very

Alvin Owusu (40:18.94)
Define define that. When you say what he does well now, like it is it is reflective of a he doesn't need to get any better at this one thing. Is that what you're saying? When you say what he does well now?

Torrey (40:28.46)
No, no. What he's doing well now and how he's winning, slash how he's matching up to various players. And I don't think that list is very long. and that's the rub. Everything could still get a lot better. I feel like in the same context we're talking about Alex Ayala, he actually is even I'm gonna say the term worse, and there's so much more to improve on. And yet he's doing pretty well, right?

And and and and get to the finals of a tournament like this with this level that stacked as this draw was, show I mean, and he played Feast, he played Mussetti, he played he he played obviously played Fritz in the final. There's a lot of he he pounded on a lot of people this week, you know what I mean? And and I have to give him a lot of credit for all the things that he that he's done. And without a what I'm gonna call you know a go to weapon shot.

Alvin Owusu (41:25.957)
Right. Yep.

Torrey (41:26.899)
you know, a a a one-two punch, you know, whatever you want to call it. He just doesn't have that right now. And the fact that he can still get it. I remember, and I remember this very, very clearly, and because I lived it and we were going through it. I remember watching and and nay saying on one Novak Djokovic for years. He'll never be this and that. He ain't got this. He'll never get that high. He ain't got one of these. And yet he was around.

And yet he was there. And yet he could still develop X, Y, and Z. And now we're looking at Mr. Twenty-Four Times Grand Slam Champ and Legend of the Game, and we're like, yeah, I guess he got that in the end, didn't he? And you don't appreciate all the work and all the things that he did, but you also appreciate that he didn't have loud nose to start. But what he did have, he had in spades. And I think that's what we're seeing a little bit in Mr. Hodar.

I love the way he the way he's bringing his game together. And quite frankly, Alvin, and I've told you this, I've told many coaches this. Don't look for what you don't look for what you see. Look for what you don't see. And can he still gain that? A player won't gain quickness, right? A player won't gain feel. They'll get better hands around the net. They'll get more all-around game. They'll get more continental skills. But they won't gain

Alvin Owusu (42:35.698)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey (42:51.766)
a skill set or an attribute they never had before. Aleciala will never be fast. She can get faster than she is now, relatively speaking. But she will never be have Coco or Vicky and Boko speed. We know that. And if she does it right, she won't need to. Raphael Dar's forehand to me is about as day-to-day as as as you know relatively speaking as as as my forehand. If he gets the right ball, it's magic.

If he gets pounded, it's a sieve. And yet, and yet, he gets to the bottles of DC. That's what I'm trying to say. there's so many things that he could get better at. His ball depth on the forehand side, very, very shaky. He can get pounded. His core position gets too far back to me for what he is. And again, a lot of it's just it's just time. his back end is clean. But I love the way he transitions. I love the way he spots the short ball. I love the way he closes.

Probably shout out to his college, his short time at college and just in general him coming forward. But you gotta love his frame, you gotta love his size coming in, and he's he doesn't do anything poorly. So as much as he doesn't have a true strength or weapon, he at the same time doesn't have any weaknesses. So that tells me, if I use the the Novak Jokeric analogy, he can still get a bigger forehand, he can still get better depth, he can still control his depth better.

The other thing I wanted to mention, Alvin, is we sometimes look at these players when we see them as they are finished products. And if you really look at a lot of players, with the exception of your pagulas and your, you know, Savalinkas on that side, and obviously on the guy's side, you're looking at your you know, your elder statesman, your Novaks. Well, Novak's even passing out because he's he's so much older, but you know, you look at your let's let's take a Taylor Fritz. But he's a good example. Taylor Fritz is a finished product.

Alvin Owusu (44:44.902)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey (44:47.525)
What you're seeing is the best he will be, very good, by the way, and the best he will probably get to. If anything, he might be on the slight decline physically due to injuries and and he's had some he's had some, you know, some issues physically. Finished product. Everything he does, he has worked on, honed, he's comfortable, he's won titles, he's been, you know. Did he did he final did he final the US and semi Wimbledon? Was that what it was? Was that

Alvin Owusu (45:11.729)
Final final US they beat he beat Francis in the in the semifinals, lost the center in the final and he semied Wimbledon maybe the same year or the year after, I can't remember the order but

Torrey (45:16.325)
Right, right. Sim. Right. T to my point. Tested, battle tested, proven, beyond a shadow of doubt. Finished product in the sense that ninety-nine percent of his game is there. Whether it is or isn't, it is what it is, and he is darn good. He is the litmus test to me for for five plus in the world, period. End of story is Taylor Fritz.

Rafael Hodar may not be but 50, maybe 60% finished. And there's still so much more to work on. That is the true, in my opinion, upside of his game. Albert, if I told you that his depth would improve by eight to ten feet off the forehand side when he gets pushed back, if I were to tell you his serve could still be get a lot bigger.

And his serve plus one is a good combo. He neither has a huge forehand or a huge serve, and he has a very good serve plus one. He can just move the ball around pretty well on you. What if his serve got 15% better and his first strike got 20% better? He's now a a a whole level better, let alone 25% better, which I think he can still get. He's a tall, lanky kid. I he's only gonna get better with the pop. What if I told you that he will start to return more intentional instead of just returning balls?

He's actually gonna be attacking you or encountering you with with certain returns. Backhand inside in, backhand inside out on the deuce, setting you up for the backhand pattern. Right now, to me, he's he strikes him as a guy that's just returning serve. He's not looking for anything in particular. He's not pulling an Andy Murray, putting you where he wants to put you with returns to set up the shots that he wants. That could be a 25 to 40% improvement in his breaking of serve, let alone in his patterns. What if I told you his court position is.

dictated to by his depth, or in this case lack of depth. Well then guess what? He's gonna fall off baseline, right? He's not able to push you enough. And so on and so on and so on. What if I told you that he still doesn't have a true game identity. He's really out there just winning matches. As you get more comfortable, he's only gonna get more set with what he does well. So I I could go on with a few more points, but you get what I'm saying. There are so many little things that could that could help the aggregate get better. This young man, this young man has

Alvin Owusu (47:29.489)
Well

Alvin Owusu (47:37.252)
Yeah, it's

Torrey (47:44.591)
has a has an upside we haven't seen yet.

Alvin Owusu (47:46.354)
When you when you watch him play, it's when I and I I I was I I was very intent on like I need to go see him and I need to go feel his game, I need to understand exactly what we're where we're starting from here. And it I my walk away was he reminds me of a really high level junior right now. And to your point, that's not a dig. That's a look at what he's done on the pro tour in s eight months of work. Eight

Torrey (47:55.875)
Right. What what right.

Torrey (48:05.334)
Yeah. Right.

Alvin Owusu (48:15.749)
Months of work when no one knew of him before. I mean, unless unless you're a Virginia Cavaliers fan, nobody knew of this guy before before before the next gen final, right? Which was in early December, late November, right? So we're talking it's early August. Now we're talking eight months with this gentleman who's 19 years old. And I I say that with the utmost respect and and just kind of like eyes wide open about what's in front of him. It's like all of those things are true. His first serve.

Torrey (48:21.078)
Right. Right.

Torrey (48:30.903)
Yeah.

Right.

Alvin Owusu (48:45.381)
He can't quite yet get himself out of service games easily. It's all a lot of work. He he he has not yet developed the the serve that matches that size quite yet, right? Again, he's nineteen. his forehand. Both ground strokes are very safe. They're safe. He can hit balls with pace and shape, but oftentimes he hits balls with shape on the forehand.

Torrey (48:49.698)
Right. Right.

Torrey (48:58.7)
Right. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (49:14.139)
That he should not be hitting with shape, right? That and there you and there is your serve plus one. Like that, there is your equation, right? In two years, you will see a lot of big flat serve down the T on the do side, slide over into the outside court, take high forehand on a rope to the backhand corner. Right now it's a heavy, almost a flat kick to the to the T.

Torrey (49:15.701)
You got that right.

That's right.

Yeah.

Torrey (49:32.074)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (49:39.995)
That ends up coming to the backhand, and now he's sitting in safely grooving that backhand to the back to your backhand corner. And that's where you start to see him feel his most comfortable. I I have yet to see him feel comfortable with his gas, his foot on the gas pedal. But it's gonna come. I'm I'm I'm quite sure it's going to come because that is the progression of a tennis player, especially a tennis player at the age of nineteen, nineteen to twenty one, you're gonna you're gonna start to see him fill out.

Torrey (49:55.392)
Hundred percent.

Alvin Owusu (50:09.816)
And start to handle that frame. Right. Exactly. He's had no offseason of training for fifty 48 weeks of professional tennis. Right. You can see it in his legs. They're not built for sustained pro level tennis yet. He's 19, so yet, right? And so those are the like those are the things. Like he has a he has a nose for the for the short ball. He's he is looking for the ball that is short. His transition game is nice.

Torrey (50:10.085)
out get stronger. That's right. Yep.

Torrey (50:24.948)
Yeah, he's nineteen. Yeah, he's nineteen, twenty years old. A hundred percent. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (50:38.82)
His volleys leave a little something to be desired. It will come. That's and that's the thing. He knows he knows what he's doing.

Torrey (50:42.644)
And and yet he knows where to volley to. It's he's he's got bare he knows what he's doing. Could they be a a little more sharp and a little more chiseled for sure, but but they will be. And that's what I'm trying to. It was funny watching him play Taylor because Taylor, who has maximized said foreign, knows when to juice it, knows when to roll it, knows when to slap it, knows when to be on the back foot and go for it to not lose core position, knows when to get redirected, you know, which has come from years of playing, right?

Alvin Owusu (50:51.738)
They will be they will be

Torrey (51:09.764)
I it was such a good analogy, because they're both similar sides. I gotta think Roth Ralph has got to be same height, if not, if not really, really close. And he's a lot more athletic, well, and younger version, right, of of of Taylor. And so it was kind of funny to watch what could be. And as you look at that, and again, all props to Taylor for what he's done cops in his career, he's done done a great job. Now you look at a younger 2.0 version. It's like that movie Universal Soldier when he's, you know, when Russell was fighting the new version of himself, right? He he who kind of

Alvin Owusu (51:37.947)
Yeah.

Torrey (51:39.089)
You're seeing this guy while he got the best of him this time through savvy and through some, you know, just a little bit of guile and understanding, you could tell that that new version is going to be is gonna have a lo a lot more options than the previous version had. And so that's what I'm looking at. And I'm really looking forward to seeing this this young man improve. so many more things. Intentionality will get better. Actual shock quality will get better. And then you're gonna actually start to see his identity.

show up. you know, we w I mentioned this with Coco for a long time. We were we were watching an amalgamation of a player. We weren't watching what we thought we s we were watching. We we saw talent. We saw some great shots. We saw a fighter, but she didn't have a lot of game. I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean she just hadn't been developed yet. She had strokes. She she had speed and she had counter punching ability, right? Now she's more fed into counterpunishing. Now she has a serve. Now she has a foreign

All things that she didn't necessarily show up with day one. And yet she was in the conversation. And yet she had two slams to her credit, even going into it. So that to me, I and I feel like all of us fans, me, me included, we we sometimes sell a player short. What we really mean to say is: this player does not have this yet. This player has yet to show this, this, and this. And it will take a year, sometimes two, shoot, in a career, five.

Alvin Owusu (52:57.904)
Yet.

Torrey (53:07.183)
To truly show that they can get to said this and that and the third. And at the end of the day, what do we really measure the player off of? Their career, their body of work, their what they've been able to do over the course of so many year over years and so many results and this and that. And you start seeing, okay, here's her, here's her Wimbledon record. First, first, third, quarters, finals.

Okay, wow, well now you remember them as w as a woman in the finalist. You don't remember them as the first couple of years that they that they got blanked on the first round. So and I say that to say for any player, right? And so we remembered them toward the end, you know, and we don't necessarily remember them at the beginning. Some have been so fortunate and so blessed to have more of a complete package when they came out, due to whatever, you know, physical size and and and strength. Some just blew the doors off was when we first saw them like Serena and and and and and my girl

Alvin Owusu (53:37.048)
Right, right.

Torrey (54:02.639)
Maria Shampova. Some took years, you know, to kind of get there and and to be relevant. And so again, you you take them all as they as as they have blessed us with their with their talent and with their game. And again, you I think it's just very it's very easy to mention it with the with the sense of finality to it. Like they don't have this they don't yeah. Keep keep watching. You know, you you might be surprised they will continue to get said things. Just just give them a little bit of time.

Alvin Owusu (54:30.404)
Yeah, and I'll I like to draw the not draw the comparison. I don't think the draw comparison needs to be drawn. It's this is what we have. I think Raphael Hodar and Yah Fonseca are going to be compared to one another in perpetuity, right? Or at least over the next ten years because they're the same age, right? They were the same incoming class on paper at at UVA. Hodar went. Fonseca decided not to last minute. So

Torrey (54:54.371)
Yeah. They're not. Sure. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (54:57.058)
w what we have is is players who are the same age but also on slightly right now slightly different time timelines only because von sec is in it on his second full year on tour whereas hodar is on his first right and so when you start to when I start to look at players specifically on the men's side, there's kind of if you're gonna really reach for the top echelon of the men's game, there are probably three things that you need. One, you need the ability to lock it down, right?

Like I gotta make balls when I gotta make balls. You need the ability to knock someone out. Like I gotta I gotta step up and smack a first serve and get a free point when I need one. I also need to I also need to be able to hit a forehand go through you on occasion. And then the third is belief, right? So those three things. The belief is I think it it all came to fruition when you saw Fonseca serving out the match in Wimbledon against Novak. He stepped up with the balls in his hand in the fifth set and knocked out four first serves.

Torrey (55:53.251)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (55:54.988)
I think like three aces and one service win or something like that, right? but you don't get to that point sorry, sorry, sorry, French open, yeah. You you but but you don't get to that point in the match against the greatest player of all time without showing the ability to lock it down and also and also punch him in the mouth at at various at various

Torrey (55:58.073)
Sure. You you mean the French over you mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but no hundred percent.

Torrey (56:09.399)
Hundred percent. Right. And and have the player on the other side believe that you can do it to even get to a fifth. And and to your point, that that's part of that. He's playing well right now. I'm talking about. Because they have to know that you have that in you for them to even concede that it's a possibility. That belief supersedes a lot of things. And it it's it's in your shot selection, it's in how you handle certain moments.

There were a plethora of 3040s, 1530s, right? Before that before that bit set. And up to that point, there isn't a th there's a way you look, there's a way you handle it. There's a way you yell, come on. You know what I mean? When you you know, you can't you can't do a blood curdling, let's go at at it at at 1540 in the first game. You are like you you the guy's like, this guy's a little rattled. He ain't gonna make it. You know what I mean?

Alvin Owusu (56:42.233)
Yep. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (57:04.376)
Right, right.

Torrey (57:06.342)
Even off of something that insignificant, you know, you you've gotta appreciate that there's a lot of there's a lot of levels to this and you gotta understand you gotta be there for all of them and be there like, but I wasn't even I wasn't even concerned, you know what I mean?

Alvin Owusu (57:19.183)
Well let me let me let me let me circle ahead and finish that up though because I think that's the difference between like what I'm saying about about Fonseca in that in that instance, right? He still sometimes gets a little squirrely on on the locking on the locking it down part, right? It takes it takes but he will he's shown that he can and I and I know he will get there. And that's why I'm I and a lot of people, you included probably are are high on him. With with Rafael, what we've seen is like he has the built in ability to lock it down. Guy can make balls all day long.

Torrey (57:31.784)
No, yeah. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (57:48.7)
he does have this innate belief in himself. You can tell by the way he carries himself on a tennis court, yet yet to add the the kick you in the face, like knock you out type of of of power and shot selection on the specifically on the first serve and on the forehand. but it will come. I do believe it will come. so I walk away from that tournament and I think I you know, we spoke with I spoke with Matt Fretterman a good bit while we were there. he came on the pod this weekend sh plug for his book.

Torrey (58:04.382)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey (58:17.502)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (58:17.767)
the the cruelest game. a lot of the things that we've you and I talked about today kind of show up in some of those vignettes and stories throughout that book about you know Taylor Fritz and Kiko Golf and you know even Yannick Center to a certain extent. but it I think a lot of people came away from the the DC tournament with a kind of new awareness of of Mr. Hodar. First first US hardcore swing, right? I think with a good showing at the US Open and then and then we're off.

Torrey (58:23.742)
Sure. Right. Right.

Torrey (58:37.31)
Right. Right.

Yeah. Right.

Torrey (58:46.579)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (58:47.109)
But yeah, it is it was exciting. the guy was, you know, doing field research effectively and and ended up finally in the tournament. So it's it's you just just keep everyone keep their keep their heads on, but like don't worry about what he can't do right now. Like think about what he's getting done right now with all the things he still yet has to improve. wanna finish up here. Intense. We've talked about Intense kind of here and there, Intense Tennis. It is a professional league.

Torrey (58:52.466)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey (58:58.846)
Yeah.

Hundred percent. Hundred percent.

Hundred percent.

Torrey (59:11.889)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (59:14.509)
Here in Atlanta, runs two months throughout the course of summer, team based, very the the scoring format's different than than normal tennis, but it is it is effectively normal tennis. One serve a piece, running clock, planned to a planned points, play until the clock runs out, subs, very fast, almost like it's on a movie being played on a movie set, lots of music, lots of yelling, during points, cowbells, weird noises, DJs, all very cool. But

Torrey (59:33.777)
Yeah,

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (59:44.697)
I wanted to because these are professional tennis players, right? They are not the the players that you see on the second week of of Wimbledon, but these are players who are either very accomplished college players, players who have spent some time on the tour trying to, you know, trying to crack top one hundred, some players who have won on the ATP or WTA tour. I know one of your one your players, February Smartin, has won eight, nine doubles titles on the on the ATP tour. So you know, you've got a lot of different players that I think like from my perspective

Torrey (59:59.004)
Sure.

Torrey (01:00:08.786)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:15.179)
It speaks to the not the depth of tennis, but like globally, there are people who are so good at tennis, so good at tennis that you have never heard of and you might never hear of, yet they are capable of doing things on a tennis court that you and I could not imagine doing on a tennis court. but from a coaching standpoint, you know, I think you you're in a unique position where you've coached high-level junior players, you've coached junior players who have, you know, transitioned to the Pro Tour.

Torrey (01:00:22.938)
Tchau.

Right. Right.

Torrey (01:00:33.06)
Right.

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:45.017)
You've coached pro tour players of now varying levels. And now you've coached them in a team format as well. You've also you've also coached college. So when you're working with players like this, how do you how do you approach getting let's say getting the best out of them? And then what are some of the insights you can give us into like the difference between okay, what is the actual difference between players at this level, I'm gonna say, and then players at the level that they're trying to get to?

Torrey (01:01:09.7)
Yeah, two two great questions loaded. I'll try to keep it concise. How do I coach them? Well, each player is very different. The the higher the level goes, the more you have to really understand the player themselves, right? You're dealing with a junior group, right? You're dealing with a high level junior pod, if you will, you're doing you go up to a college team, which is even smaller, and now you have a almost a cohort and then you have a player and that player has a team. You know, the it almost the the the the

pyramid inverts. You went from one coach on on twelve to, you know, to one player with twelve coaches, you know, at the at the highest level of their team. The how do I how do you coach them, I think you you get a get a real good sense on what they need, how they need to hear it. you know, it's not how to hit a tennis ball at that that level. It's a few, it's a it's a few small nuances. And what are they really good at? We talked about this earlier with with with the olive.

Can we maximize what you do well? Can we minimize what you don't? And can we, and in our senses with intense, can I coach around it? I don't have to get your backhand better. You know, I I can bring in a lefty and literally change the whole dynamic of my planning a certain person. Now the other coach can do the same. but in Intense with unlimited subs, I mean I feel like our team did a really good job of we we threw so much at you. It was very difficult to stay above water because

Alvin Owusu (01:02:18.987)
Yeah.

Torrey (01:02:35.414)
Just when you thought you you had a feel for how to play that person, I had a new player coming at you at at all times. So even, you know, with Fabrice coming in, doing some servant volume, we had we had a heavy grinding lefty. We had a real good player, play top SEC ball and and was just a good all around player, yeah with good serve, good forehand, good backhand, great court coverage, good you know, just great returns. And and yet

there was a lot of players that we brought in that that could do different things. So what how do you coach them? You you you j you have to have an expi enough experience to know coach them differently, know what they do well. And how do they how can you bring them together to form a team? Because tennis, as you know Alvin, it gets to be very selfish a little more. What about me? And I was very very fortunate to have a really good team base. A lot of them play college tennis.

They all wanted to be part of a team, even the ones that didn't play much college tennis or played any college tennis, really wanted to be on a team. They really wanted that team experience. And that's and that's what that was pretty cool to see. and tennis as a league, I love. I love the concept of it. I think it's just what tennis needs. it's it's it's its tagline is tennis turned up. I think sometimes, it's funny, you've been watching some of the matches in DC, all of the downtime. All and again, well while it's great for the game and the commercials for the for the networks.

It's also slow. It's extremely, it's brutally slow. Unless the match is very engaging. You're your serve, your miss serve, you're bouncing the ball four more times, the ball kid retrieves the ball. You get the second serve, and the person misses the return. Tennis can drag, right? There's moments of greatness and there's a lot of just and there's a lot of meh, you know, out there from time to time. With intense, you get almost none of that. Everything is pretty

Well, bar pardon the term, intense right from the first point. Clocks running, one serve per which kind of favors the returner, right? And now you've got a lot more action happening very, very quickly. From subs to winners being two points to one toss, one serve. There's a lot coming at you. It's like they took everything that could be a detractor or a down thing for a fan, and they make that into the rules, which is pretty cool. add to that the engagement of the fan being loud.

Torrey (01:04:56.905)
As you say, cowbells and and and and whatever the I don't call the kazoos, whatever they have the everything you can think of to make noise, no the noisemakers. It was it was a l it was a little loud. I I told my team, I go, You guys are gonna go to tournaments now, you know, and someone's gonna be clapping next door, you won't even phase. I said, y you're not even you're not even going to even hear it.

Yeah, you're gonna have two serves, you'll you're gonna smile like, ooh, I got two serves now, as opposed to double fault. I said you should never double fault now because you've you've been playing with one serve for for two months. And so for that part of it, I really feel like for the fan engagement, it was phenomenal. I think for the players, getting that getting that salary and getting the chance to make some extra cash was a great thing for them and their careers. there's a lot of things that I like about it. Tennis needs a few events like that to change it up.

And intense needs the fan base of tennis. And that's kind of the that's my takeaway from it. as far as as far as the I forget your level difference. The level difference, right. The level difference, Alvin, is actually there. especially with the round one and and some of the round two picks. many of them had been top hundred, many of them w the whether they were or not. I think what intense now has to decide is

Alvin Owusu (01:05:56.344)
The level difference. The level difference of where they are and where they're trying to get to.

Torrey (01:06:16.167)
Where to place the season to get more of those higher level players. it's it's a it's a tough, it's a tough conversation because summertime is the might be the best time for say a college player, but not necessarily for a tour player. It's going to be a a difficult decision to see where they go with it. The other thing I would say about the difference, like I said, my my my my first round pick, Aliona Balsova, played Australia main draw this year, you know.

The Brice was in the main draw of doubles this year. I mean, we're not talking about players that played nine years ago. the Brice made the final of the French Open about seven years ago. So these players are in pretty good form right now. They are as good as advertised, and they are obviously some of the top players as far as that top hundred benchmark already. The the rest of them, obviously, not not not so much, but that's you know, it it's it's a growing league. And I feel like from last year to this year.

much like Alex Ayala and Hodar's game, it's it's on a it's on a vertical man. I mean the the players the players that played last year may not have made the draw, may not have made the the the field this year. I mean it just continued to get better and better. where the the players themselves are quite good, a lot of ATP and WTA points. now we'll start to see what fleshes out when the season is. Because as you know, Alvin, we go into post Australia, you go into the Clay Court swing.

And certain players just aren't as good on clay. That would mean you'd have a bunch of tour level players who are out there slogging it out in the in the challengers and the 250s that are trying to get points up to get into and may not really want to do the full clay court swing or do the grass swing. You go into the indoor season toward the end of the year, yeah. You know, obviously in the fall, you know, a lot of players prefer the clay. A lot of f players prefer, you know, to the play and they may go somewhere else and not play indoors in Asia. Well.

Those to me are that's that 150 to 350 player in the world that could really that you might see on TV next year that did some other things differently, made some changes, played a few more tournaments. So that to me is the level that I don't think most fans understand. Those players are playing every weekend too. They're playing every week and weekend out as well. They're just not the ones you see on TV. And there's really what I would call there's three tours. There's your ATP or your top hundred.

Torrey (01:08:38.182)
tour and and WTA, there is your challenger slash, you know, the the I would say the two fifties and the and the and the high level challengers that are just the players that are playing on the quality of said events. And then of course you got your your futures and your you know your your ITAs that you're sorry your ITFs that are coming underneath that. So there's really if you use a basketball, you know sorry baseball analogy, you've got your, you know, you've got your your

Your top team, you got your your triple A and you got your you your double A. And I think that's really people don't realize the depth to it. And that and that player that's two fifty in the world album is phenomenal. I mean, they're they're not phenomenal compared to fifty, but they are phenomenal compared to three fifty, I tell you that. And you and you just watch and watch play and you're like, Wow, that's good tennis right there. And I think that's the tough part is you know what's what's a good analogy was to watch Hodar.

play against who'd he play in the in in in the did didn't he play was it hisikata or who'd he play in the in the in the semi no he played the lefty tivoli or or tobilo he looked he looked well he lost first set but he looked great in the second and third against tobilo and then he looked like he got kind of handled a little bit by by Taylor and parts of the second set.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:47.522)
Tabilo.

Torrey (01:10:01.09)
That was a good example of how different he could look. And he's Hodar's gonna what? 20 in the world that coming up here coming up pretty pretty soon. And he looked like two different players. That's what it looks like with a 150 playing against the top 100 or playing against a 250. The it's just it's when I tell you, it is literally a ball depth difference. But that eight feet, that six feet is everything.

Alvin Owusu (01:10:19.277)
Sure, yeah.

Torrey (01:10:29.528)
That is the difference in a guy. Tagging the return and running you, and the difference in you holding the baseline, getting comfortable, and being able to work your game. It's that small. And I think that's the beauty of watching it. And watching it, I saw it even within my own team. I could see a player, you know, my my my middle, my middle of my pack player was really good. They could get out of being in trouble, but they couldn't hurt you as often. My top end player.

Could hurt you immediately, could make you pay for that mistake, and wouldn't miss that same ball back to you to give you the chance back. And that's tennis in general, isn't it? That that's tennis in general. I was just blessed enough to see it up close and personal for eight, you know, for eight weeks and to see, you know, how well, how fast the adjustments are, the different ways they could hurt you, how quickly they can make adjustments. And I think that's really the thing that the average fan who may not watch it as much.

I think they kind of see the levels very s delineated, very strided, and and it's not bad at all. There's a whole lot of range, there's a whole lot of of of comfortability doing this or not doing that that you see. What you see is the end result, but there's a lot it's it's vi a lot closer than you think. And a lot of those players that are, as I say, 150, 200 out that are that are stones throw out are very, very talented. They just need a little confidence. You mentioned before that belief.

And just the ability to cause kinda have lockdown. I would say most players have half of all those things. Can they get the other half of those three things to make to to move their needle? That's really what you're looking for.

Alvin Owusu (01:12:03.254)
We shall see. We we shall see. but it was I'm glad the I'm glad the you had a positive experience. you know, I went I went last year for a match. I went this year to watch your team for a match. good to see you out there. you know, you're not not necessarily repping best three while you're out there. You're you're you're working for working for tense tennis, but it's it's we're we're out here. We're out here. We're we're we're still out here. I think that's a that's a good place to put it. It's all well, it's good to have you good to have you back. I'm a professional. it's good to have you back.

Torrey (01:12:09.585)
great experience.

Torrey (01:12:14.006)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Torrey (01:12:20.905)
Right, right, right, right, right. Right. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:12:31.822)
and I think that's also a good place for us to put a pen in it for today. we got a couple of couple of big tournaments coming up. We're on our you know, we're climbing here towards the the final crescendo of the Grand Slam season. a couple couple Masters one thousands and then we'll I'm sure we'll have some interesting things to talk about between now and then and then US Open. are you going to the open this year? Are we are when you when are you going? 'cause I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm going. I'm going. We haven't talked about it yet.

Torrey (01:12:53.277)
I'm planning on going the open this year. Yep.

Whatever my dates are, late August. I think the missus has a conference at the tennis teachers conference or whatever the symposium is up there. I think the twenty sixth, twenty seventh, if memory serves, something like that, in end of August.

Alvin Owusu (01:13:08.33)
Yeah, I'm I'm I'm there the Wednesday, Thursday of qualifying. So the week before. I'm gonna go for qualifying in practice. I think we might be there may I think we might be there the same time. That's this

Torrey (01:13:13.853)
Got it. Guys, that's the best time to go. Yeah, that that's the best time to go. The Qs Q's going right into them in the first that first weekend. That's that to me is that you you see all see the other players practicing, see the other play the guys coming up playing. It's a and that's some some of the best some of the best matches to me.

Alvin Owusu (01:13:32.033)
Yep. cool. Yep. Well we'll we'll know that our plans and we'll if you're if you guys are gonna be at the open, we'll we'd love to we'd love to meet you. We'd love to meet you. pinning it there. Alvin, that's Tori. Best of three, we are out.

Torrey (01:13:39.359)
Absolutely. Yep.