Rafael Jódar and the ATP’s Next Tactical Separator

Rafael Jódar has quickly moved from interesting young player to serious ATP prospect, but the reason is not simply his size or power. Alvin and Patrick break down why Jódar’s game already looks unusually mature: a clean backhand return, controlled rally shape, natural movement, and the ability to build points without redlining.

The discussion compares Jódar with João Fonseca, Jakub Mensik, and Arthur Fils, focusing on the difference between raw shot-making and repeatable point construction. Patrick makes the strongest case for Jódar as a future top-tier ATP force, while Alvin keeps the projection grounded: Jódar belongs in the future-facing group, but Grand Slam relevance still depends on durability, adaptation, and best-of-five stamina.

The episode also places Jódar within the larger Sinner-Alcaraz evolution. The next wave of players grew up watching that model, and Jódar may be one of the first prospects whose game reflects it with enough tactical clarity to eventually challenge it.

Transcript

Alvin Owusu (00:00.078)
And welcome to another episode of the best three podcast. I'm Alvin, that's Pat. And Pat, we're gonna talk a little bit, I guess we're gonna talk a lot about one Rafael Jodar because when you texted me, you said, I wanna talk about Rafael Jodar, amongst some other things. But that's where we're gonna start today's conversation. But before we get into that, well, I should tell the people that you're supposed to like and subscribe and all that kind of stuff. One, don't do that.

Patrick (00:10.77)
Yeah.

Patrick (00:18.462)
That's right.

Alvin Owusu (00:29.486)
Okay, two, Pat, how are you doing?

Patrick (00:29.758)
Yeah. Doing well, doing well. It is raining buckets here, but I am finally dry. I get to talk about this one phenom, I feel, who I think everybody is now starting to talk about him. It's just like there's this sort of a...

fire across all the other podcasts and everything that Jodar is to be reckoned with. But I probably am going to take it a little bit further today. I don't know. I'm a little worried how we're going to get received, but let's give it a shot, you know?

Alvin Owusu (01:07.756)
Yeah, it's fine, it's fine. think it's, okay, there's, actually I'm gonna let you go first, because I have a certain feeling about the way that we talk about these young players. And I think it's very important to, okay, I'm gonna say it. When I open my mouth and I say something like, Yalfonseca is next up, or,

when you say, or even I would agree with you probably, that Rafael Jodar is one of those. What I mean is they are in the conversation about the top of what will be the top of men's tennis moving forward. That does not mean that they're going to win a Grand Slam tomorrow from my personal seat. That does not mean that they're gonna win a Grand Slam in the next 18 months from my personal seat. But what I...

Patrick (01:54.706)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (02:00.75)
There are players on the tour, let's put this way, all the players, and we're talking about the men's tour here today, so all of the players that you watch on television play tennis, even the ones who lose in the first round of a Grand Slam, are so good. They're so good, right? But then the guys who are reaching the final stages of the Grand Slam, those are the ones that take up the most space, and probably rightly so, right? And that's just kind of how this goes. You guys don't type in world number 98 in your search bar to see,

Patrick (02:15.326)
That's it.

Alvin Owusu (02:29.91)
if there's anyone talking about them on the internet, right? So we have to keep that in mind. So when I say this person is one of those people, in my opinion, I'm talking about someone who might impact the future of the ATP tour over the next three, five, seven, 10 years. Okay, now with that very extensive caveat, personal caveat, because I'm gonna let you talk your talk. If you wanna tell me that Rafael Hidalgo is gonna win French Open, you're by all means, it's...

Patrick (02:48.926)
Well done. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Thank you. Yes, quite.

Alvin Owusu (02:59.702)
It's just me and you, man, just having a conversation.

Patrick (03:01.95)
I, well, let me say I did start watching Jodar a while ago in Marrakesh when he won the 250. That was, I was already with him a bit, but I didn't know how well he could move on clay. And then when I watched him.

Alvin Owusu (03:11.374)
Hmm?

Patrick (03:21.022)
It was odd because normally when I watch a new player, I think back to other players in the past because I'm old. when I think about that, I remember the first moment I was watching him and strangely I thought about early Saffin, like 18 or 19 years old. So I went way back, 98, and I watched old Saffin highlights when he was just...

Alvin Owusu (03:42.654)
Interesting, okay.

Patrick (03:50.928)
about the same age as Jodar and When I was looking at Jodar's backhand which my god I'd give anything for that backhand Jodar's backhand is insane insane it's and not only clean, but I feel like kick serves are just nothing to him and when when sinner was hitting his Side track and come back to the saffron thing but when sinner was hitting his kick off the ad side and then

Alvin Owusu (04:01.421)
It's clean. It's clean.

Patrick (04:20.992)
was just owning that. It was just no, no, no, no, not for you. mean like that there was something real capable of Jodar that he can reach that that kick and have no trouble with redirecting it the other way. And his sense of control on that backhand side was that sent ripples in my mind. I thought okay who can do that? Who has done that in the past?

Alvin Owusu (04:35.799)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick (04:48.946)
That did remind me bit of Safin. And he has this control with his ground strokes, this core to him that reminds me of early Safin, it reminds me a little bit of Prime Silich. And yeah, those two guys were my first comps when I was just watching them a bit. I don't know, when you're watching Jodar, do you feel like...

Alvin Owusu (05:01.695)
Okay. Okay.

Patrick (05:15.92)
I guess you're not getting on board with me as much as I am, but when I watch this guy play, I think he's the third guy. I'll say it. think he's better than Fonseca, and you know how much I love Lerner, but he beat Lerner in Next Gen, and I think that...

Jodar is there. think especially on clay, I think he's going to have a little bit of a similar time as Nadal where he does find a way to just be very successful on clay, but he has trouble maybe adapting his shots on other surfaces.

He's there French open is stays healthy stays, but I'm worried about his stamina I don't think he can win the French because he said in an interview with a UVA I think a long time ago his longest match was like three and half hours and I said Can you have three and a half hour matches?

seven times? I don't think so. So I hope he wins a cup. It would be horrible for any top seed player to play Jodar in the first, second and third round. I feel the French. mean, if you get Jodar in that round, God, it's awful. It would be just, yeah. So there's my mess for to start with.

Alvin Owusu (06:19.851)
Right, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (06:40.621)
Okay, okay, fair. So let's go in reverse order. So he's done well enough thus far. looks like he's gonna be seeded in Roland Garros. So that'll be good for, I guess probably good for the field and also good for him. You would hate to see something like that lurking like 33 through 38 somewhere in there. I mean, it'd make for an interesting day one, day two, wherever he would fall. But as a seed, we won't start seeing anything of consequence for him.

Patrick (06:48.498)
Yep.

Patrick (06:59.672)
That's it, yeah.

Patrick (07:04.264)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (07:10.189)
From a seed to seed standpoint until the third round. So I think third round fourth round maybe but I a lot of his game Which I do firmly put him in the okay You're on you're on this side of the tour not that side of the tour like you're you're you're gonna be one of the guys in Not one of the guys around He's he's got the he has the right the necessary size, right? He's a big guy six four six three. Maybe six four

Patrick (07:14.718)
true.

Patrick (07:27.3)
Okay.

Patrick (07:37.394)
Six to eight, yeah about six to eight.

Alvin Owusu (07:39.438)
and Rangy and he's got the firepower, but it also comes with a level of safety, I think, watching him against Fonseca. It's a very interesting week for Mr. Hoddar in that he just dismantled Alex de Menor, who I think is currently ranked seven, six, seven, eight in the world. That's...

Patrick (07:44.028)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick (07:49.384)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (08:05.825)
That's big and that was reminiscent of what Fonseca did to Rublev a couple years ago at the Australian Open in the first round. When you announce yourself against a top player. Now, Fonseca did it over a best of five set match, which is different. But just as impactful, I think, the way that Jodar imposed himself upon Alex.

Patrick (08:20.488)
True.

Patrick (08:28.83)
We have to remember too that Jodar was literally in his hometown. mean, he grew up in Madrid. His crowd, he's playing for friends, acquaintances, people he knows all around him, just cheering him on. For a 19-year-old, that probably feels really good.

Alvin Owusu (08:36.64)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (08:50.955)
Yeah, yeah, that absolutely. Absolutely.

Patrick (08:52.72)
So in that way, is this an illusion? Perhaps temporarily, but you know, I, when I, when I look at players, I, you had something you were going to say, but so when I look at players, I look at their interests a lot, like side interest things. And he grew up playing soccer. started playing tennis when he was four, joined his dad's club at six. And he, love, you know, he's playing soccer, he's playing tennis. And then I see that he loves math.

Alvin Owusu (09:02.923)
No, go ahead. No, no, go ahead.

Patrick (09:22.704)
loves chess. And yeah, yeah, that to me, thought, Whoa, and then they asked him like, what are you interested in Virginia? And he's like, Well, I would be interested in business school, you know, if I had stayed. And I go, this guy is like an accountant, you know, he's like somebody who likes patterns, sequences. This, this is going to set up really well for him. I don't see, mean, and at the same time, he does have a bit of that fire, like when he was playing Fonseca.

Alvin Owusu (09:24.562)
gosh. Yeah.

Patrick (09:52.696)
There were moments where he was shouting at his, probably his dad, or the team is his dad at this point. And Sam Quarry didn't bring up a good point that he was getting echoes of early Medvedev with Jodar. But I think Jodar is in a different place, has a different mindset than Mehdi.

Alvin Owusu (10:16.781)
Yeah, I think you have to take a lot of consideration like time on tour. Like he turned pro January, like effectively. I mean he was at UVA last year, next gen finals. So I think he won three challenges towards the back end of the year, which is like, we had Chris Eubanks on, I don't know when this is gonna air, but sometime prior to this conversation, Chris came on the pod and we talked about like,

Patrick (10:22.76)
Mm.

Pretty early, I mean pretty late, yeah.

Patrick (10:42.558)
That was incredible.

Alvin Owusu (10:45.803)
some of the markers that you look for when players are getting ready to make the leap. And it's about, when you see someone win three challenges in a row, you pay attention to that. You're like, that guy is not, he's not just cracking into top 150, he's on the way. Those players don't work their way up the rankings. They get up to where they're going quite quickly. And so that was a telltale. Did quite well at the next gen where,

Patrick (10:56.274)
Yeah.

Patrick (11:02.451)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (11:14.733)
Tori watched Next Gen pretty extensively. And I remember at the pod we did after, he's like, two guys, Jodar and Blox. Like those are the guys. Yeah and Blox is, he is, he is. he's playing Zverev in the semi-finals of Madrid, I think tomorrow, I think that is. That'll be an interesting match because I like to see these players get their opportunities against the top players.

Patrick (11:25.704)
Blox. Yeah, Blox is coming alive right now. Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick (11:35.528)
That's gonna be a really good match, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (11:44.237)
Like Fonseca went through it earlier this year. Like he got a look at his first look at center in Miami, sorry, in Indian Wells and then got us, lost six and six. It very well thought match. And then got his first look at Carlos a week or two later in Miami. Lost four and four. Different scenario, but a good showing. And then went toe to toe with Shelton in Munich just last.

Patrick (11:50.707)
Yeah.

Right.

Alvin Owusu (12:13.152)
two weeks ago or something like that. So that's three top 10 players in the first quarter or half of the year, whatever it is, you don't get there until you get to see those players enough times. And so I think for someone like Jodar, very similar path to Fanzaka, right? Like first year on four, wins his first 250, okay, got that check.

Patrick (12:22.014)
Mm.

Patrick (12:30.984)
Hmm.

Alvin Owusu (12:37.612)
Um, he's, making his way up the rankings. He's going to be seated the next grand slam. Okay. Check. It's a little fast. Um, it's a little fast, but within one, within one tournament, he, he beats a top 10 player handedly and then goes up against his, uh, contemporary from an age standpoint, uh, against one second and probably should have won that match in straights, but he showed

Patrick (12:37.714)
Yeah.

Patrick (12:44.094)
True.

Patrick (12:51.901)
Yeah.

Patrick (12:57.662)
Right.

Patrick (13:02.481)
It should have.

Alvin Owusu (13:04.416)
there are some stark differences in the way that those two approach the game. I like, but that was intense and it felt like an occasion because I always think the first time they play is important.

Patrick (13:14.558)
It really, yeah. Yeah, when I was watching Fonseca and Hoda, I was taking some notes actually, because I felt like we're going to watch these guys for the next decade. I did feel that...

I'm a little worried about Fonseca. I don't know if I get to be qualified to say this, but I do feel he's skipping steps in his ground strokes. Like he's realized that his flat forehand is a massive weapon, but at the same time, there's very little margin for error over that net, right? So he's sacrificing a bit of a...

construction of point experience for firepower. And I think he let it all, he was exploding against a center. mean, his shots were, you know, and Alcraz to an extent, although Alcraz can just play with the crowd.

in a different way humiliate you. feel Fonseca has a much better chance with someone like Sinner than Alcraz. But with Fonseca, what I felt Jodar was exposing was this... There was a sequence that in the third set I felt where... And Fonseca ends up just destroying his racket or something like that. But it seemed like, wow, Jodar...

Alvin Owusu (14:35.158)
Yep, yep.

Patrick (14:39.742)
There's a maturity here, way more than Fonseca because of, Fonseca went faster when he needed to just have more of a gradation in his...

in this point construction. Now that was what I noticed with Fonseca. He pulls the trigger too early, often. Especially when he feels like he's being outmatched or out-strategized. So, I don't know. I'm a little worried that he's gonna stay with this idea that I just gotta crush the ball. I just gotta crush the ball as soon as possible. And a little bit like some Americans in the past. So, sorry Americans.

Alvin Owusu (15:17.488)
Interesting, mean I'm with you in that I agree that there's a certain inherent safety or safeness in Jodar's general ball. Like the way that he plays, you don't really feel like he's going to, while he's going big, there is enough shape on that ball that you don't feel like he's zoning at any given, like a redlining at any given point in time, even if he's going, you know.

Patrick (15:33.597)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (15:43.757)
98, 99, 100 on the forehand, you still kind of feel like it's safe. Whereas I'm not gonna say Fonseca is a slap by any mark, since the word, but, and I feel like it's probably a little too early to tell on both of them. I think they're both in the same conversation as far as where they will probably.

Patrick (15:49.789)
Great.

Patrick (16:03.998)
Hmm.

Alvin Owusu (16:12.94)
Like what their aspirations should be. Their aspirations should not be 10 years on tour. They have the top 10 in their future and contending for slams at some point here. Probably in the next, it's hard to say because it's a weird thing. It's a weird thing I think we're seeing in this tournament what can happen when one of these guys isn't around between center and Alcaraes and we're gonna see it again in Rome. We're gonna see it again in Roland Garros.

Patrick (16:15.261)
Yeah.

Patrick (16:30.942)
Mm.

Patrick (16:37.948)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (16:42.792)
anything could happen. think the match, Jodar's match against Sinner was very telling in that he has all the tools to compete. He can hang. He can hang. He can hang. But then you watch the tiebreaker and it just kind of, was a, that was the like magnifying glass on you're not there yet. Like, yeah.

Patrick (16:49.52)
I think so, yeah.

Patrick (16:56.638)
It does. It does. Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick (17:06.59)
You're not there, right, right. Well, and it was Sinner playing flawlessly and recalibrating his game and thinking, okay, I'm getting used to this guy's RPMs. But at the same time, there were moments Jodar was hitting shots that you could just tell Sinner, his eyes widened a bit. This is something that I've never dealt with before.

In that way, I loved how Sinner reacted after that match. He's like, what a player, signing it on that camera thing and talking him up in interview, but also worried about talking him up too much because he wants Jodar to kind of come in and challenge. That's where, Sinner, I think he was exaggerating a bit because he misses Carlos. I think Sinner, he's like, Jodar is...

Alvin Owusu (17:57.898)
Already? Already?

Patrick (18:03.934)
is incredible, but at the same time, I'm so alone. I'm so alone here. But I did sense that the center was impressed with Jodar's game.

There was one point that Jodar played often, not one point, but in each match. When a player comes up to the net and Jodar hits low so that the volley comes up high, you see immediately how Jodar hits and then comes up close to the surface. That reaction time is faster than I've seen in most players, I must say. So that's why I'm, yeah, patterns and sequences.

Alvin Owusu (18:43.413)
I mean, he, he, he.

Yeah, he knows what he's doing. His comfort on court, think is like, I see it as very, it's all very safe, it's all very cerebral, and to your point, that same, that two shot, he's effectively setting up a two shot pass, right? It's like, I'm getting that first one to your feet, you're going to pop it up, I'm going to step in, and it's going to be an easier pass for me. And you can tell when a player is thinking through that process by just like you mentioned, right? He hits that, maybe it's an open stance to him, and backhand, he rips.

Patrick (19:01.778)
Yes, that's right.

Alvin Owusu (19:16.907)
Lands on that on the outside foot and then the first step is forward. It's like I'm hitting I know what's coming next because that's what I that's what I'm drawing out of the my opponent and Yeah, I mean I it's it's Interesting in that we start to look at like I think the age is really really important here between you know, Fonseca is 19 Jodar is 19 You know even fees is 21 min sick is 20 even hell-holers 22 Carlos is 22. So

Patrick (19:17.149)
Yeah.

Patrick (19:21.298)
Yeah.

Patrick (19:34.91)
Mm.

Alvin Owusu (19:46.86)
While we look at these guys, you almost have to zoom in a little bit to group them by class almost. When you zoom out just a little bit, and even Yonex 24, they're all kind of in that same, if you think about the gap between Roger and Novak with Rafa in the middle, I think it's like five years, five or six years. So when you look at it that way, it's like, this is, Novak, I mean not Novak, me, center.

Patrick (20:07.262)
True, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (20:14.763)
kind of just got here as far as like this version of Center. It's only been, this is year three, is this year three or year four of, what did he win his first, he was trying to go three-peat Australia this year and didn't get it done. So that would have been his first one was in, yeah let's call it year four of Center. I'll have to look that up in a second here. But it's, and then Carlos, Carlos has been with us for,

Patrick (20:18.952)
Yeah.

Patrick (20:31.198)
You could call it year four, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (20:44.715)
I mean, five years, right? even though they're both, Carlos, I think of all these players, has been at the top of the game longer. Sinner is older. But as we start to round it out, you can't forget about the Feces and you can't forget about the Menchix or even Musetti. Musetti's the same age as Sinner, right? So they're all in there. How?

Patrick (20:46.034)
Yeah, right.

Patrick (20:54.398)
Hmm.

Yes. Yes.

Patrick (21:04.552)
Hmm.

Patrick (21:09.519)
Yeah, yeah

Alvin Owusu (21:10.827)
How we separate out though is it's gonna be interesting. think the next two years are gonna be really really interesting and then you also don't know who else is gonna come on in.

Patrick (21:19.762)
Yeah, well I know Jodar has watched Sinner a lot and he has even said in interviews that Sinner is the guy, my model.

He said, I thought that was really interesting. He could have just shouted out Alcaresque, fellow countryman and all that. I think there is a, he respects the way center methodically dismantles players. And I think he emulates that to an extent, even probably with even more calibration, I feel. He just has that patience that I feel is missing in a lot of the younger players. I feel Arthur Fields is still more about

performance than he is about execution. I feel Mensage is impatient. I'm bashing these guys, but please understand that they I love watching all of them and they're incredible and I hope they prove me wrong in every way. But yeah, Mensage, I want Mensage to be a little bit more patient in how he constructs points, but he always wants to in Fonseca it's even more

then message. You feel like when he hits a forehand, he just hopes that points over. And that's not...

I when I watched Fonseca, I just calm down, dude. Calm down. Like play the point. So I'm not a coach at all. But these these guys, that's what I'm noticing. The young players, especially when you watch them, because they just when it comes to the Grand Slams, as you know, these are four hour marathon duels, which is why Djokovic comes out of his cave every four times a year. And he just blasts people because he has this

Patrick (23:07.104)
stamina that is fit for Grand Slams but when it comes to these shorter tournaments the younger players are this is where they have their chance they can come in in one hour 20 minutes like or dismantled demon are in an hour and with with Jodar the sky's the limit to see he's gonna grow two more inches probably he's just he has a

I think with him being 19, with Alcraz being 22, and with Sinner being 24, This could be where we get a big three, is where I'm going with Jodar.

Alvin Owusu (23:53.855)
It's Yeah, yeah, I I'm I'm not ready to go that far I'm not ready to go that far. I did see this. mean at 19 first six months on the ATP tour effectively playing tour level tournaments and There's still a lot like while there's a lot on display and a lot

Patrick (24:01.214)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (24:18.315)
to be excited about, I think rightly so, right? And I think we might even be splitting hairs here. I'm just not ready to put him there. I am willing to say that he is one of them. He is in that circle. And I don't think it's like it's not a it's going to happen. I think it's happening right now. There's just something about the, like when I juxtapose him to Artur Fies, right? Jodar Tafis.

Patrick (24:24.638)
Sure, yeah.

Patrick (24:30.301)
Hmm.

Patrick (24:38.385)
It is, it is, yeah.

Patrick (24:45.288)
Hmm.

Alvin Owusu (24:48.021)
Jodar is seemingly safer and he doesn't have to work as hard to produce the same ball.

Patrick (24:56.124)
That's a good point. Yeah, true.

Alvin Owusu (24:57.771)
Now there is this whole like you do need enough time under tension, enough time in the weight room, enough time to build the body to withstand best out of five set tennis with regularity. So I don't necessarily expect much out of him at the grand slam level. Definitely not at Roland Garros. Grass is tricky to learn.

You'd be surprised, maybe he learns it very quickly and then he's on it for this year. I feel like those who get it, get it pretty quickly and then the rest of them never do. But I think you start giving him a full year on tour, give him a full off season. I think next year could be the, that would be the year that I'm looking at. Okay, what is he gonna do and then how is Fonseca gonna, I know, so they react but like.

Patrick (25:30.504)
true.

Alvin Owusu (25:54.921)
I think it'll be nice to watch these two go through their process over the next 18 months.

Patrick (25:59.09)
Yeah. Yeah, and I think what we also have to acknowledge, and I'm so on board with Jodar that I have to bring myself back a little bit. And I'll understand.

Alvin Owusu (26:11.506)
Yeah, come on back. Come on back.

Patrick (26:14.686)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Patrick (26:44.64)
in a very strange way and they were having trouble with him. But when you play Brooksby a few times, you start to notice, okay, the ball's gonna go this way. I adjust, it's fine. So with Jodar, it will be about adjustment in about six or seven months when he's played all these people to a point where they're starting to see, well, that's his shot. That's what he can do. Can Jodar adapt his

I have no idea that that's that's something I but I I want to guess he could and I want to guess that he's more adapt He's more willing to adapt his game than I feel other players are so That's Of course, I hope Hogaruna proves us all wrong and he comes back and he's healthy and strong but he he he's really good at adapting I think but

I don't know how strong he's gonna be when he really comes back, but yeah.

Alvin Owusu (27:47.251)
Yeah, is a missing, I think he's a missing element. Let's remember he did beat Carlos just last year, at the back end of the Barcelona 500. And he's beaten Novak. Holger is also a guy, but I just want to see him back healthy. I want to see him get a solid year under his belt again and just kind of get back into the swing of things. Well, he is right in that age group, right? He's 22.

Patrick (27:51.411)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick (28:06.076)
Yeah, yeah.

Patrick (28:12.466)
Hmm.

Alvin Owusu (28:15.37)
Even Ben's 23, Carlos 22, Janik 24. So we have a lot of, like it's interesting how much the big three and almost older players had a lock on the game for so long and now you're starting to see it kind of come back down. I did a quick refresher. Janik won his first Grand Slam in 2024. feels like so long ago, but like it just, it freaking just happened two years ago.

Patrick (28:35.283)
Yeah.

Patrick (28:40.732)
Wow, yeah, yeah.

Hmm.

Alvin Owusu (28:45.556)
Two years ago to the day, he was a one-time Grand Slam champion, right? It's just like hard to think. Right, I mean, he caught the rhythm to the dance and decided like, I can do this dance. Like, I can do this dance quite well. Watch me get a number one. But I think it's a really good, it's really interesting to look at kind of the evolution of players and why I think players like Jodar and Fonseca can compete.

Patrick (28:48.222)
I feel like he's been here for five years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick (28:59.634)
Yeah.

Patrick (29:15.614)
Mm.

Alvin Owusu (29:15.658)
or at least look competitive in these matches against the top-rank guys so quickly because I think they are just the next version of the same players. Whereas when you look at Federer, and he had his run, 05, 06, 07, 08, and then he came, and then Nadal pops up. Nadal was the perfect foil.

Patrick (29:30.034)
Yeah.

Patrick (29:34.973)
Mm.

Patrick (29:44.338)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (29:44.361)
heavy lefty up high to feds one handed backhand, right? So that is the thing that kind of like throttled Federer, right? And then, okay, so then Nadal starts getting into the conversation and he's winning all the French opens and then he peaks, he wins three in one year and then he meets a guy who can take that backhand down the line to his backhand. So like Novak then thwarts Nadal's best thing and

Patrick (29:48.104)
Yep.

Patrick (30:12.572)
Right, true, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (30:14.012)
And then he starts to enter himself into the conversation and continues, starts to rack up grand slams and then everyone else's grand slams kind of get throttled. So I think Carlos, know, the very, very interesting matchup between Carlos and Yannick in the 2020, I'm gonna say 2022 US Open, that match that like happened back there where they were both sliding around that five hour match. Like it will go down in the annals of like.

Patrick (30:17.342)
Hmm.

Patrick (30:40.413)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (30:42.92)
that was the one before the rest of them. That was the meeting of, I guess Carlos won that, he won that match and won that tournament, is that correct? Was that his first US Open championship? I'm trying to make sure that wasn't, I'm not conflating two different years here, but I believe that's the case. And what you saw was, you have players who are handling the court in the same way.

Patrick (30:43.261)
Yeah.

Patrick (30:55.036)
I think so.

Alvin Owusu (31:11.978)
Like the combination of power and speed and flexibility, like all of it was on display. Like you're looking at a mirror. These guys are running around, hitting, pulling shots out of their ass, like just going for it all out, going for it. And that, when you think about something like that, 2022 feels like it was both a long time ago and not a very long time ago, but I want to, I want to put it in this kind of perspective. Raphael Jodar is.

Patrick (31:34.91)
true.

Alvin Owusu (31:40.298)
19 years old right now. Four years ago, he was 15 years old. So as a 15 year old watching that tennis on television, as he is in the middle of his junior career, right? mean, guy won junior US Open, right? He was a very highly ranked junior player. So he's, he's cultivating his game and watching the pros on television. It's like, that's professional tennis. Like that's what I'm trying to get to. And okay. So when he comes on tour,

what you're going to see, you're not going to see anything that looks like the Dolan Federer or maybe not necessarily Djokovic. You're going to see something that looks like Carlos Iannic and I think you're going to continue to see that. So this is like the beginning of the next generation of junior players that were training and becoming who they were watching these guys on television. And so until someone comes along and does the

Patrick (32:23.954)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (32:38.663)
what Nadal did to Fed or does what Djokovic did to Nadal. I don't think, I think it's gonna be very interesting because I think we're gonna see a lot of these players kind of rush up to the top and kind of be very similar, but I don't know how they're going to actually break in unless they just do, when they do.

Patrick (32:46.408)
Good.

Patrick (32:59.164)
Right. You make a really, really good point about looking at a player when you're 15 years old and you're developing your own shots and you're looking...

And I think even at 15, 16, and 17, Jodar is looking at Sinner and Alcaraz and, okay, I see what they're doing to each other. I see how they're strategizing against each other's strengths and weaknesses. Where can I get them both? I do think that type of question is something that even a teenager is asking, like, where's that weak point? Where's the weak point in Sinner's just wall of greatness?

Where can he be weak? And I think for Jodar, it's the return of serve for Sinner. I think what I saw out of him, if Sinner is kicking that second serve, it's nothing to him. It's a lot to everybody else. But for Jodar, it's just no. You know, now I'm in control of this point. And he showed that in spurts, only in spurts. Still 19, but.

Alvin Owusu (34:06.717)
Yeah, I mean that one specifically, I saw that, especially on the ad side, Yannick would go kick her out wide to the backhand, and Jodar, earlier in the match, was landing that backhand return a little short cross. Yannick would go around, get a hold of the forehand, and he started working forehands inside out to Jodar's backhand, backhand, backhand, backhand, until he was able to get an offense off of the second serve.

Patrick (34:24.338)
Yeah, he was.

Alvin Owusu (34:36.061)
early in the match, what Hodard did well to adjust was he just started hitting it little bit bigger, like increasing the depth on that same return. So where he's now getting to Yannick's backhand, as opposed to letting Yannick get around and hit inside out forehands. And at that point, they were kind of neutral. They were kind of neutral. And so it's interesting in that when I look at like what

Patrick (34:43.784)
He went for it, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (35:05.925)
center did to, I think it was Render Kinesh at the French Open, or what he did to Cam Norrie, I think in Rome last year. What he can make these players look like a full level below him, yet when you're in these points, when Jodar was in these points with Jannik, you're like, no, he's right there. He's in the points, like Jannik's having to go into his.

Patrick (35:18.962)
Full, yeah.

Patrick (35:25.406)
Hmm.

Alvin Owusu (35:33.578)
his like, I'm not gonna say Carlos level bag of tricks, but like, he's digging here. He's giving everything he's got. It happened from the first, each one's second service game in the first set. They both went extremely long service games in games three and four in the first set. And it's like, oh, we're already notched into this match. We got guys who were going big and safe at the same time, and it's like, what are we gonna do here?

Patrick (35:38.334)
He is digging. Yes! Yes!

Patrick (35:59.432)
I think any tennis player or fan listening has had that experience when they're hitting a great serve and then that serve comes back to them and they're like, holy, okay. I'm on my back foot and I think Sinner experienced that with Jodar and he hadn't been experiencing that at all with any of the players maybe since Carlos. And that, I know we're so far away from this stuff, but.

Jodar is grounded, he's grounded, he's got to stay grounded. I don't think that's a bit of a risk. Whereas with Fonseca and all these others, I don't know. I think there's a lot of work to be done in order to get to that next level. I just, don't see that pathway the way I see it with Jodar. looking at, yeah, sure.

Alvin Owusu (36:50.579)
What do you consider, I'm gonna ask you this, what do you consider, when you say the next level, and when you say next level, you mean, I want to know very definitively what you're considering next level as far as what's above that line and what is below that line.

Patrick (36:59.816)
Sure.

Patrick (37:04.392)
Well, the next level is fourth round of a grand slam quarter and then up to the final. It's the having that stamina to last those first three rounds of a grand. To me, players who are 19, 20 and 21, they can come in with a lot of unknowns.

And that's to their advantage in those four. And then, and of course a ton of passion and as in a motor that just never gets tired. So, you you can have three, five round matches, right? And yet you're still riding high. But then when you get to that fourth round and you're playing a player who's just grizzled, they've just, they've been like, like a Zverev or even a Casper Rude, people who have the stamina, mental stamina to last a match in the fourth round.

Alvin Owusu (37:27.027)
Sure, yeah.

Patrick (37:55.062)
fourth hour into the fifth hour and you've hit so many balls. Like are you able to maintain that high level? That to me is next level.

Alvin Owusu (37:57.555)
Yeah.

Patrick (38:08.998)
Can I don't see that with Fonseca sometimes I see that with message, but he just he pulls his own ripcord too often and I think he just he takes himself out of the match. But and with Arthur fees like you really I think you're brought up a really good point with him. He he works so hard all the time to when he constructs his points just. I don't know if he's going to be able to fees reminds me of Nishikori.

to the way they both have to work so hard. Even though Nishikori kind of looked like he, know, on and off, was just enjoying himself, hitting it cleanly and cross-court back, you know, but both of them, I just, I'm worried about their own limitations, but who knows?

Alvin Owusu (38:40.41)
Mmm.

Alvin Owusu (39:01.481)
The Nishikori comp is interesting. He announced that he's gonna retire at end of this year. I hear announcements like that and I'm like, yeah, I didn't know you were still playing. But Nishikori, both Nishikori and Fizz have to work very hard to win matches, but for different reasons. I Nishikori's, I think it's just his stature and his ability to produce firepower over the course of, I mean,

Patrick (39:06.558)
Yeah, he did.

Yeah, he tries.

Alvin Owusu (39:30.717)
His backhand was as clean as Christmas, like one of the best I've ever seen in my life. But it's hard to win matches dictating from the backhand side, especially at like 5'11", maybe he was six foot, maybe. But that was his own limitation. Fees is, Arthur doesn't get through matches, especially best of five set matches, cleanly, like quickly. It seems to always, in his very, very young career, right, he missed.

Patrick (39:34.558)
Mmm.

Patrick (39:40.496)
Yeah, I was about to say that, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (39:59.561)
And he played French Open last year and he was kind of coming into his own, like really announcing himself after that fantastic run in Barcelona. I it's the semi-final Barcelona and then lost round to 16 in the next one, whatever, doesn't matter. But he doesn't get through early round matches easily. Like hell, almost lost in the first round of Madrid as well and then also...

Patrick (40:08.2)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (40:28.23)
his first round match in Barcelona, which he ended up winning the tournament, but he almost lost in the first round, was it Otman? I can't remember which week that was. yeah, doesn't, like Grand Slam champions, or would-be Grand Slam champions tend to get through rounds one through three pretty routinely. Like you don't wanna empty the tank, play a five setter in the first round or second round, like we're not doing that.

Patrick (40:32.797)
Yeah.

I can't remember, yeah.

Patrick (40:48.147)
Yeah.

Patrick (40:53.98)
That's it. That's it.

Alvin Owusu (40:55.142)
I wanna see that out of Arter before I make any, like if that, if he goes to the first week of Fridge Open and plays 10 sets, that's, and three matches, like okay, okay, then I'm.

Patrick (41:06.706)
Mm.

There it is, right. I think Fritz is really good at doing this. He doesn't waste time on the court. Completely different player, but I'm talking more about time management during matches and not making matches out to be sagas. And of course it helps to have a serve that keeps you in command. We could have a whole long talk about height and advantage and things like that, but we don't have to go to that.

Alvin Owusu (41:26.738)
That'll help. That'll help.

Alvin Owusu (41:37.736)
I mean, we don't have to not, but it's important. It's important. It's important.

Patrick (41:39.566)
Yeah, right, right. Well, I think one of the reasons I went so strong on Jodar is because I see him growing. Physically too. His body's... it's not a...

Like Safin, I think that's why I went back to him. There was a change. You see Safin at 18 and 19, you see him at 25, he looks like a different human being. So, of course, like most of us. So, I think it's only gonna get, not easier, but there's gonna be even more weapons for Jodar coming as he 20, 21.

He's there, he's there, but Fizz, I don't know, I don't know. I love watching him. I will watch Fizz immediately. He's like in the top five of if I can get a ticket, I watch him. And I watched him at Japan Open, he was here.

Alvin Owusu (42:38.644)
Yeah, that's fun.

Patrick (42:42.43)
Yeah, watched him for a bit, like in practice and all that. So yeah, he with the Ugo, they were hitting serves that were pretty funny. You know how Umber always goes to the way over, almost into the doubles alley to hit his lefty serve so it can go way out wide. love watching, but Fies wanted some of that during practice, I think. So they were like playing each other on like the diagonals.

Alvin Owusu (42:45.575)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (42:57.403)
Right, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (43:09.97)
Ha ha!

Patrick (43:12.384)
It was fun to watch. Fies is an awesome, awesome player.

Alvin Owusu (43:17.192)
Well, I wanted to kind of talk about, like you mentioned, the difference between a player between age 18 and 25. Like obviously there's a huge, I mean, seven year window right there. Some would argue that the prime is somewhere in there, probably in that, you you could say 23, 24, I've heard other people say 26 to 28. If you play this out though, you're gonna have a lot of these guys, like in the next three years,

Patrick (43:28.446)
Yeah.

Patrick (43:39.216)
Mmm. Mmm.

Alvin Owusu (43:47.928)
when Sinner is 27 and Carlos is 25 and you got the Hodars and the Fonsecas like 22. And then let's not forget like time doesn't stop. Like there will be others that come up. in next year we'll be talking about this other 19 year old and the year after that and the year after that, right? So they're all coming and they're all the ones who have been growing up watching

Carlos and Janik on TV. So I just feel like we're going to get more of these rangy, decent, well moving. And the movement part I think is the big differentiator between Fonseca and Hodart. Hodart looks like a more natural mover. Or maybe he just reads better so that if they are equal movers he looks more adept. But I wanted to,

Patrick (44:25.086)
Yeah.

Patrick (44:32.581)
Yes, yes, yes.

Patrick (44:45.342)
What?

Alvin Owusu (44:46.952)
Look out.

Patrick (44:48.018)
No, with, I'm remembering Del Potro a little bit. I remember when he came out in 09 and everybody was just, I've never seen somebody blast a forehand that hard.

Everybody was thinking, but it came down to movement really. I mean it was you started to understand how to play del pochro and I think Jodar's movement like you're saying against Fonseca it just it showed that he has it a little bit more. yeah, going back to peak though.

It's 24, it's 24 to 25 in my opinion. I've always felt that a player's moment, they're Everest, I think. Nadal in 2010, he said, that was my best year, 24 years old. Djokovic 2011, most of us remember that year. That's when he goes gluten free and then, you know, whatever. So of course that's not, go gluten free and become a champion, of course.

Alvin Owusu (45:54.716)
That's it, it's that simple. It's that simple.

Patrick (45:54.744)
doesn't work but yeah Fed was 05 I think I mean he was just on a different cloud and

Alvin Owusu (46:03.716)
He was in the middle of a, in the middle of a eight, eight slams in three years run at a, at age 24, right in middle of it. Yep.

Patrick (46:09.542)
Right, right. And I think you can keep doing that with different players. There is of course a couple late bloomers. mean, if you want to go into players who were only, they've won two Grand Slams or something like, Patrick Rafter was a little bit of a late bloomer. but.

Most of the time, 24-25 to me feels that that's it. This is my moment and that's why center I feel will most likely dominate the rest of this year. I would love to see Zverev do something at the French. I'd love it but and I've said it on this pot that I thought Zverev might have a good chance and now he really does with Alcaraz taking a, you know, not a break.

He's recovering, but Zverev has a chance in this one, but he has to get a good draw and he has to not bleed himself into the semis.

Alvin Owusu (47:10.024)
I'm gonna take this opportunity, I'm gonna take this opportunity, and I'm giving this opportunity to talk directly to the keyboard warriors. I'm looking right at you, right at you. When we say he has a chance, that does not mean he is necessarily going to win, but in order to win, you must be there. And Alexander Zverev, continually, is there.

Patrick (47:12.734)
Yeah.

Patrick (47:32.894)
You must be there.

Patrick (47:38.163)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (47:38.406)
that if you're not there, you can't win. Guess who's always there? That guy has the best chance. It's math. It's just math. Okay. But to the Roland Garros of things, because I'm interested. So have you ever watched the draw ceremony for Roland Garros?

Patrick (47:42.974)
Yeah.

It's

Sure.

Patrick (47:57.822)
once but a long time ago. I haven't seen it recently.

Alvin Owusu (48:02.727)
Okay, need you, put it on your calendar. I believe it's the Thursday before the tournament starts, is the official draw ceremony. They stream it live on YouTube. is like at this, they do it in this building at Roland Garros and it's like, it's the previous year's champions come walking down the, effectively walking down the aisle. looks like they're set up for a wedding, just a little more upbeat. So Carlos and Coco will come.

Patrick (48:05.883)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (48:30.661)
walking down and they both stand on stage for their respective draw ceremonies and they get introduced and like there are like 300 people in the room. It's an event. Like it is an event. so got the tennis podcast, they talked about it and I decided to actually tune in last year and watch it. And like when the names come out, they're like, ooh, ooh la la, ooh. It is, and I can't wait till they start

Patrick (48:42.024)
Yeah, it's changed.

Patrick (48:56.382)
Hahaha

you

Alvin Owusu (49:00.615)
pulling out so they start placing seeds on the men's draw because that bottom half, if Novak ends up on the top half, it's literally anyone could make the finals of, like I was talking to my buddy, texting my buddy Bob who might come on the pod at some point here, but like there are probably eight guys who could final Roland Garros this year if, if.

Patrick (49:06.941)
Hmm.

Patrick (49:14.173)
Yeah.

Patrick (49:21.362)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (49:28.143)
Novak is on Yannick's side of the draw.

Patrick (49:31.644)
So you're saying when that happens, the draw ceremony happens and Novak goes top half, the crowd's probably, the crowd's just gonna go, you know, like, that would be this. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (49:42.824)
It's gonna be wild. It's gonna be wild. I can't remember if they placed the seeds first. So obviously one and two will go top and bottom and then three and four are somewhat random. It's not like one versus four and two versus three in the bottom. Yeah, it's gonna be great. That's gonna have a real impact on how we view.

Patrick (49:58.207)
Okay.

Patrick (50:08.008)
Wow.

Alvin Owusu (50:12.187)
like the Fortnite, it's gonna be great.

Patrick (50:14.652)
Yeah, I'm excited. think I'm also.

just because we've been talking about Jodar for like 30 minutes, but I'm wondering where, if he's gonna be what, maybe like a 26 to a 30 seed or something like that. So that puts what, probably a four, if of course the seeds never really work out at the French Open the way, and like Wimbledon too, I guess, but that's a third or fourth round match with maybe one of a top five, right?

Alvin Owusu (50:29.135)
It's over there, yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (50:46.823)
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patrick (50:47.71)
Maybe something like that, yeah. There it is, mean, oh God, I would drop everything to watch that match, you still going or? Wow.

Alvin Owusu (50:58.875)
That could be fun. That could be fun.

Alvin Owusu (51:05.127)
I'm going, yeah, I'm definitely there. I have tickets, I think tickets showed up a couple weeks ago, so I'm there. As we get closer to it, have to figure out how I'm gonna arrange my day, because I'm there for the women's semifinals, so you'll see the, I guess at that point, the men's final, the men's final is the day after, so whoever the semifinalists are on the men's side, they'll be practicing that day.

Patrick (51:13.192)
Yeah.

Patrick (51:19.463)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (51:32.837)
So I should be able to catch a glimpse. There's also some doubles happening, some juniors outside of the main event. But yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited. It's gonna be great.

Patrick (51:32.913)
Right.

Patrick (51:41.15)
Mm.

That is a dream. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think when I was being a modest college tennis player, my dream was just to lose in the qualifying of a French Open. wasn't even, my dreams were so not, I wasn't like, I'm going to go to the quarterfinals. I was like, can I just get to the qualifying moment of the French? Yeah, I like, that was a dream.

Alvin Owusu (52:08.561)
Get to the call. That's a book waiting to be written right there or a screenplay.

Patrick (52:15.074)
Yeah, this is true. Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (52:18.011)
this long in the tooth journeyman who just aspires to get into the colies of not just A major but of Roland Garros and then like have your journey to getting there, like physically getting there.

Patrick (52:30.59)
There are not enough stories like that, right? Where you get like a 30 to 35 year old guy who's just like, you know, I've never really made it, you know, a little late bloomer and he...

Alvin Owusu (52:42.639)
Isn't that Kevin, wasn't there a Kevin Costner movie, like where he was a baseball player and like was it Bull Durham?

Patrick (52:48.201)
Baseball, baseball, know? I mean, you could be 45 and be hitting home runs, I don't know. Sorry, maybe I don't, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (52:49.947)
Yeah, okay. I'm just...

Alvin Owusu (52:56.283)
Yeah, I'm just saying, it's a popular sport. Tennis is it's popularly played, is from a, yeah, it's a niche sport to begin with and we have a, this is also a very niche corner of that niche sport, this podcast.

Patrick (53:05.444)
Mmm, yeah true.

Patrick (53:15.858)
Right, Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (53:17.819)
But yeah, you're, okay, so this, wanted to kind of wrap up on this peak thing, kind of touch on it a little bit. So you feel like Sinner's at it. You feel like this is the best version of him.

Patrick (53:22.728)
Sure, sure.

Patrick (53:27.004)
This is, yep, he's, that's right.

And you know, you got to think about motivation too, right? So he has one more tournament to win to get the career Grand Slam. It's the French, right? And so Alcara has just did that. And now it's almost like a in Japanese. We say dozo like, okay, now your turn. Yeah, you know, those go ahead and center has it just it's like a red carpet. I feel but at the same time, I don't think he wanted it to be a red carpet. I think he wants it.

Alvin Owusu (53:40.135)
This is correct.

Alvin Owusu (53:48.604)
Your turn.

Patrick (54:01.46)
He wants Alcáez, he wants revenge for that tournament last year. He wants to win it that way. But yeah, I think it centers. It's not really a shock take. I just, feel he's probably going to win that. He's probably gonna win even Wimbledon. So it feels very sad.

Alvin Owusu (54:29.241)
Interesting. mean, Yannick, what he's doing right now is it's it's mind blowing, but also he's doing it so calmly. Like I'm just beating everyone. Everyone's getting it.

Patrick (54:36.784)
Ahem.

Patrick (54:43.132)
Yeah. That's what's terrifying about it. It's so regular at this point and he looks so damn confident in every match. Even the fist bumps at this point is just like, yep, got it. All right, let's keep rolling. He's officially grown up to a point where he commands...

He commands every match. Now, would I love for him to go into more detail during interviews after matches? Please, yes. Please say, I know, but God, just be a little bit more candid. I would love that, but.

Alvin Owusu (55:20.133)
Nah, it's not happening.

Patrick (55:27.632)
Sinner always keeps it so general. Hodart too, mean when Hodart was like, will play better and get learned from this and he has to keep it that way of course. He's 19 but now Sinner you have the world's attention. Just reveal yourself a little bit would be nice but it's just me being.

Alvin Owusu (55:49.959)
I think I'm, not to talk out both sides of my mouth here, but there have been enough instances in the last few months, like while he is doing all this wedding, there are players that the profile of the player that can give him trouble, I think is starting to form. It is the player who is much like himself. Good mover.

Patrick (56:11.102)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Patrick (56:18.354)
True.

Alvin Owusu (56:19.482)
big hitter and what we're starting to see is more and more young guys and I mentioned this earlier and I'll say it again. There are more and more players coming on the scene that can hit with him and move with him. It's not the players that are older than him. It's not even the players that are your same age. It's the ones that have grown up watching him. Like these two, three year difference makes a big, big difference. I mentioned earlier, like yeah.

Four years ago, or four years ago, Hordar was 15, right? Four years ago, Fonseca was 15 years old. So when they were matriculating through the junior ranks, they were watching, they had the idea of the top of the pro game was whatever it was that Carlos was doing, which was a version, a hyped up version of what Novak was doing, which is hitting hard, harder, and sliding in and out of both corners on a hard court, making that normal.

Patrick (56:53.586)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (57:19.15)
Okay, fast, just continue. Tennis will continue to evolve because there's a 15 year old right now watching Fonseca and watching Jodar and watching, like the next generation is always watching. So I feel like we're gonna find out a lot about Yannick Center in the next, I'd say between, by the end of next year, 2027.

Patrick (57:23.613)
Right.

Patrick (57:30.076)
Yeah.

Patrick (57:43.378)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (57:44.794)
I think give it a full, full another six grand slam. So I guess it's seven grand slam technically with Roland Garros coming up.

Patrick (57:52.274)
Mm.

Alvin Owusu (57:53.255)
We're gonna see what these young guys have and can Yannick defend all the bullets that are be coming at him.

Patrick (58:01.672)
Right. I think the game plan against Sinner is, right, you do have to go in and be his shadow almost at this point. And then when you are with him in that...

That's when someone like Alcares, they pull out a shot that Sinner wasn't expecting. Whereas when Sinner plays somebody like Zverev, who admittedly, almost publicly says, can't play, I don't know how to play this guy, right? When he says those things, it's because Zverev feels like Sinner understands Zverev's game to such a point that Zverev can't surprise him anymore.

He can't put him in a place where, why is the various game like this right now? But Jodar, Jodar, like you said, he's going to evolve. He's going to change. But if he can go into center and show, you know, it's almost like a...

when boxes are going around each other in a ring, like right now Jodar has to understand the distance that he has to keep from Sinner, but then when to attack. And he will do that. And the way he'll do that is going to change in the next year or two against Sinner. And Sinner's not going to be able to prepare for that because even Jodar doesn't know how that is going to be improvised.

Alvin Owusu (59:35.323)
That's a point. That's a really good point. Sinner is at this point who he is. If he's in his prime, I think that has to be the case, right? Yes, he can add things. I'm sure he will continue to get better over the next six years, but it's not like he's gonna start serving in volley or anything. This version of him is going to be the version of him that

Patrick (59:37.564)
soon.

Patrick (59:42.694)
Right. I think he's reached that.

Patrick (01:00:00.295)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:04.826)
he is going to move forward the rest of his career with, but.

Patrick (01:00:07.134)
Yeah, and another thing though I was bringing up, we were talking earlier about Nadal and Federer, right? So Nadal was being interviewed I think by Radik and he said it was 2017 Federer that for Nadal it was like...

Alvin Owusu (01:00:26.522)
The comment over the backhand fed. Yeah.

Patrick (01:00:28.286)
Right, changed the racket a bit, the approach coming in, a little bit more firepower, and it was just like the doll sometimes some points Fed would just, you know, the points over. And the doll had no answer to that. He thought that that was the most dangerous Federer to him. And when you think about that, how old is Federer at that point, right? He's 36? Yeah, 36.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:49.862)
30... God bless.

Patrick (01:00:53.918)
36 and he's making changes to his game and this is will be what center has to do when he I think when he gets figured out I don't think it's going to be this year I think this is enjoy this just as

ocean wave of total success this year, but when it probably next year, I really think so that everyone says, well, the prime center, I understand him now. He's going to need to adjust if he wants to keep his career as long as the previous big three.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:30.362)
Yeah, I'm interested to see, I'm very interested to see who forces change out of these guys. Like true change, like Nadal forced Fed to stop slicing that backhand and come over it, right? True change. Like Carlos and Yannick are making each other better, but not necessarily like making each other get better, not be different.

Patrick (01:01:40.902)
Yeah, who forces me?

Patrick (01:01:49.854)
Yep.

Patrick (01:01:54.782)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:00.815)
get better. Fed coming over the backhand wasn't him necessarily getting better, it was him doing different. And I'm curious to see which crop, it this generation? We had this before with the big three, they ate three complete generations. There's the Chilich, Nishikori, and Dimitrov generation, and then it was the

Patrick (01:02:02.962)
Yeah.

Patrick (01:02:08.018)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:30.693)
the Zverev and Sitsipass generation and then it was the, there's one mini one right after that. Or maybe it was just those two and then now you have this generation which those guys just aged out so nothing to, not like they were forced out. Novak Hell is still here. So it's gonna be interesting to see like okay, when these guys get five years into their career which is what we're coming about to to this point now.

Patrick (01:02:58.802)
Mm.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:59.949)
you should be seeing these guys pop up, the 19 year olds that push them and force them to do something different. We shall see. We shall see. Well Pat, let's put a pin in it there. was fun. We went somewhat agenda-less outside of your need to get these Jodar takes off your chest. Yeah, Jodar.

Patrick (01:03:10.344)
There it is. There it is. Yeah.

Patrick (01:03:16.478)
Alright, yeah. We did it. Jodar. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:03:28.153)
But I think this is gonna be really interesting because he's gone very quickly from young guy to chaser to now he will be chased. And it's gonna be an interesting few months for him, the rest of this, not only clickware season, but the rest of this summer upcoming.

Patrick (01:03:39.998)
Pretty soon, pretty soon, yep.

Patrick (01:03:46.61)
Yeah, let's see how he plays outside of Madrid, right? I mean, let's see how he adapts and how he feels about a Grand Slam where he's seeded, marked. There are so many unpredictable factors that could occur, but Jodar, you're it, man. Keep going.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:08.173)
Yeah, I mean, the same week that we got, got, we got the news from Carlos. got, we got this new Spanish thing to be excited about. So like, like the great say tennis tennis keeps going. keeps going. And I've heard, I've heard Carlos is going to be coming back. His plans come back for a grass court season. So this is a, hopefully just a blip on the radar. but, yeah, let's another, another contestant enters the arena. It's where we, we, the tennis fans are blessed.

Patrick (01:04:15.516)
Here it is. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:38.278)
But yeah, we'll put a pin in it there. I'm Alvin, that's Patrick. Make sure you like and subscribe. Best of three, we are out.