Jannik Sinner and the Problem the ATP Has Not Solved

Jannik Sinner’s height is part of the story, but it is not the explanation. In this episode, Alvin and Torrey look at why Sinner has become such a difficult structural problem for the ATP: he combines elite movement, early ball-striking, return pressure, improved serving, and pattern discipline in a way that takes away an opponent’s preferred solutions.

The central tactical breakdown focuses on Alexander Zverev. Sinner does not simply overpower Zverev; he attacks the movement relationship between Zverev’s backhand, forehand recovery, and court position. Once Zverev is forced into defensive open-stance backhands, Sinner can go behind him, change line, drop, or move forward before Zverev ever gets back into his preferred rhythm.

The episode also looks ahead to Roland Garros and the profile of player who may eventually trouble Sinner: big enough to serve and hit through him, quick enough to move with him, and convicted enough to play first-strike tennis before Sinner starts solving the match. The final section turns to Hailey Baptiste’s Madrid win over Aryna Sabalenka, highlighting why Baptiste’s craft, touch, forehand shape, and clay-court comfort make the result more meaningful than a one-off upset.

Transcript

Alvin Owusu (00:00.918)
It does, she also agrees, and I agree. So welcome to another episode of the Best of Three podcast. I'm Alvin, that's Tory. It's been a long time, we shouldn't have left you without another pod to listen to. We are, exactly, exactly. On today's episode, gonna wander down the path of Yannick's Center. So right now as we record this episode, we are two days into the Rome event, it's pretty early.

Torrey Hawkins (00:14.435)
Dun-dun-dun,

Alvin Owusu (00:29.944)
So we'll come back probably next week, talk about that maybe midweek and then talk about the tournament right after as we roll into Roland Garros. But I think right now is a good time to just kind of like, we haven't gotten together in a while. Yannick Center is doing some very interesting things, not only himself with his performances, but also what's going on with the field around him. Alexander's very over things. We'll talk a little bit about his.

Torrey Hawkins (00:42.991)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (00:58.572)
his recent matchups with the next generation of would-be challengers to the throne, the Feasts, the Hodars, the Fonsecas. But before we get into that first and foremost, TH, welcome back and how you doing?

Torrey Hawkins (01:11.383)
I'm good man, good to be back. I know you'll be heading across the pond yourself here in a few weeks. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:17.651)
it's getting close, it's getting close. Let me get these kids out of school first and then we can focus on that.

Torrey Hawkins (01:21.677)
down. Man, I tell you the only the trip was great. Flights are great. Portugal's great. absolute wonderful time. long layovers and Charles de Gaulle not so much and brutal. mean the airport airports for the worst part. I'm just telling you the airport absolute worst and man if and you spend your time there. I mean I thought the signage in in Hartsfield was bad. Alvin Charles might be the worst.

Alvin Owusu (01:33.166)
gosh, that place is the worst. It's the worst.

Alvin Owusu (01:49.667)
Yeah. No, it's bad. I was there a couple weeks ago. It took me, I had an hour and a half layover, took me the entire time to get from one terminal to the next.

Torrey Hawkins (01:59.855)
And it's like they have so many different entry points to go to different places. I felt like I went to security nine times and I'm like, I'm on a layover. I'm in the airport, I didn't leave. Man, does it not? You better get a long layover in Charles De Gaulle because if you don't buddy, hey, you know what I mean? Or know what you're doing or speak French because if not, it is not.

Alvin Owusu (02:10.424)
Yeah

Alvin Owusu (02:14.294)
Yeah, CDG makes you work for it, man.

Alvin Owusu (02:25.74)
All three might not help you.

Alvin Owusu (02:30.836)
Seriously, it might not matter. You might as just stay the night. But you know, I say that and I will be in that airport at least a couple times in a few short weeks here. No layover, thank goodness. But yeah, so that's good. Glad to have you back. We're making our way here towards the crescendo of the clay court season, but I think it's a really good time to kind of take a pause and talk about what we've been seeing from Mr. Center.

Torrey Hawkins (02:35.055)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:40.973)
right.

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (02:59.958)
I text you last week and I saw this really, really interesting video and I shared it with you and I'll link it in the show notes or description down here by a content creator on YouTube. His name is, by Ace. He did this really fantastic video on talking about how height is impacting the game of tennis right now and how it has impacted the game of tennis over time and how centers height at six three.

might be one of the reasons why he's able to be the player he is. And I think we both enjoyed the video, guy, I mean, he makes good videos and the points were very well laid out. But your retort was more along the lines of the height is a feature, not necessarily the main thing with the main differentiator between Mr. Center and maybe the number ones before him and then the rest of the field right now. So I'm gonna.

Torrey Hawkins (03:32.463)
100%.

Torrey Hawkins (03:36.247)
I'm very

Torrey Hawkins (03:47.267)
reason.

Alvin Owusu (03:55.663)
I wanna give you the opportunity to kind of like walk me down that path and then we can talk about some of the things we've seen in the last few weeks.

Torrey Hawkins (04:02.223)
100 % and appreciate the T up there. So number one, love the video. Ace did a phenomenal job. Love the way he laid out his point. My pushback on it is Yannick is a lot of things. On the tennis court, most of them good. And the height is one of the many pluses. The mobility at his height. The way he...

his discipline and movement at his height, his ability to slide well at his height, his ability to play well on all four surfaces at his height, right? And at some point you start seeing the height diminishes a bit because every time you think of the taller player, and I'm gonna interject real quick here. Let me come back to Sasha Zverev at 6'6", almost 6'7".

He is at, he, Yannick Center is at a height that is taller than say 50 % give or take of the top hundred, but still shorter and more nimble than the 20 % of the top hundred that is much taller than he is. So that's where I think this thing goes to. What Ace's point is, is well taken for the tour at large. And that's a hundred percent proven. It's a fact.

the tour's getting taller. But I would also say the same thing for the NBA, it's getting taller. know, the ball's getting taller, you know what mean? Baseball's getting taller. I talked with Jeff Frankour from time to time as one of the members of my club. Jeff Frankour's almost as tall as I am, Alvin. I'm 6'6". Jeff Frankour is 6'5", all day long. And he hadn't played in 10, 15 years. So just giving you an idea, these are some very tall individuals. The top women, I remember walking by Lisa Leslie when I was...

Alvin Owusu (05:45.655)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (05:59.427)
first got to Atlanta 20 years ago and she was playing for the, you know, in the Olympics and playing for when the WBA was just getting started. Lisa Leslie was all day six, six foot six. I mean, she walked by me and I'm looking up like, wow. So I say it to say, athletes getting taller. This article speaks to Yannick as one of the reasons or maybe even the reason was his height. And I just think we need to take a step back and look at the macro of it. And the macro of it is.

What we're seeing right now is a once in a generation talent in Yannick Center. He just happens to be very mobile. He just happens very wiry. He just happens to be 6'3". And he just happens to be redheaded, right? But all those, and he just happens to be a former ski champion from a young age and he just happens to be redheaded, right? There's a lot of things we can say he just happens to be. But that's where I'm going with it. And I want to give you a time to retort, but I just want to say the height, his height, while taller than most, is...

one of the things which expands his court coverage and whatnot, I don't think it's the thing.

Alvin Owusu (07:05.037)
Yeah, so let's spend a little time with the height part and then we'll get into Mr. Center here. But over time, in basketball, she's basketball example, I would think Michael Jordan is probably the prototypical shooting guard, right? He has enough size at that position to do all the things needed for that particular position and then excel at them, right? If you are, he was six, is six, six.

If you're 6'4", trying to play that position, you're gonna be a little undersized. If you're 6'9", trying to play that position, you're gonna have a tough time staying in front of players who are a little bit shorter than you, a little bit closer to the ground, so on and so forth. Exactly, so then you shift positions. Whereas in tennis, you cannot shift positions. There's only one position, right? So what we've seen over history is that on the men's side, the average height of the number ones is generally between

Torrey Hawkins (07:36.409)
Chris Fong.

Torrey Hawkins (07:44.399)
and Johnson,

Alvin Owusu (08:02.205)
six foot and like six two. Novak six two, Roger six one, not Rafa six one on paper, maybe six two. You sent over some numbers like that part is not changing, right? And so if center being six three feels like a little bit above that average for the number one players, like you can counterbalance that with like a Layton Hewitt or a Andre Agassi in time, but like Pete was also six foot.

not, we don't, tennis is not a sport for necessarily for giants. And the video does a good job of talking about the differences between like a Riley El Pelca and a Sebastian Baez and what they're like, how their height. Limits them enough in parts of the game that will make it almost impossible for either one of them to actually get someone of their same size to get to the top of the game. you would think someone six foot seven, six foot eight, nine, whatever Riley is could just do the thing.

Torrey Hawkins (08:46.511)
100%.

Alvin Owusu (09:00.053)
Right? All day long, but change of directions, mobility gets hampered. but then someone like Sebastian Baez on the other end has a very, very, very small strike zone. Sebastian and I are not that far off in size from one another. And I can tell you it's, I would like to be able to get out wide to the corner in two steps is two and a half. And it's not just in tennis, it's we're trying to get our feet in position to hit the shot that we want to hit.

Torrey Hawkins (09:12.739)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (09:30.059)
Right? When it takes you, yes, with the ball we're given, right? Now if it takes you a half step more to get in that position, you're not gonna get in that position, you're gonna hit the shot you don't want to hit from that position. And that's where the length of levers tends to come in. Do you wanna expound on that, Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (09:30.735)
That's what we're doing.

Torrey Hawkins (09:41.615)
100%. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (09:48.208)
I do, I do. And I think we picked between Sebastian Baez and Riley LaPelka. Clearly that's the two, you know, diagelopsis. We're talking about Riley Extremes, the outliers, if you will.

Alvin Owusu (09:54.401)
Those are the extremes.

Torrey Hawkins (10:01.88)
I think one of the main differences we're talking about here is also the... we're talking about physical limitations.

height being the common denominator. Sebastian Baez, like Muggsy Bogues, has maximized what he can at his height. Tell him what he can't do, he's gonna prove you wrong. That's baked into his DNA at this point. He comes from a long line of guys, tell me I can't do something. And that goes back to some guys from, you know.

Alvin Owusu (10:25.985)
Yes, yes.

Alvin Owusu (10:33.037)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (10:41.071)
to from Chang to, you know, down to Layton, you had had a bit of a short man's chip on the shoulder to, you know, Marcello Rios was not tall, different issues there, but to your point, Marcello was pretty, Baghdadis was not that tall. There's a lot of players I'm looking back at that were top 10 or better material. Oh, Guillermo Correa, that's what I'm looking for. JC was not that tall. Let's call that Mr. Flair.

Alvin Owusu (10:48.021)
Marcelo Rios wasn't all that tall himself. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (11:00.589)
Yeo more Korea. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (11:06.987)
Moja's not that tall, wasn't that tall.

Torrey Hawkins (11:09.231)
So I I say that to say that a lot of these guys have been at or just shy of six feet and have had a great career. The video referenced one, Andre Agassi, who of course was what, I by the 5'11".

Alvin Owusu (11:23.821)
Yeah, he's like 5'8", like 5'10".

Alvin Owusu (11:37.975)
Well, stay there for a second though. Stay there with Agassi for a second, because I think you have to look at his height and then his game style as one hand fed the other or forced the other even so.

Torrey Hawkins (11:45.049)
Thank you.

Torrey Hawkins (11:50.863)
And this is I was gonna get at in my long-winded approach to getting there. That is the point I'm making. It's baked into your DNA. Sebastian has to play a certain way. That's how he maximized what he's doing. I would say the same thing for the other side. Riley's got a bomb serves. He's seven feet tall. He's got a bomb serves and he's fairly mobile for a guy down there seven feet. He also grew a lot.

Alvin Owusu (11:54.989)
I've got time.

Torrey Hawkins (12:17.135)
going to the body is always tough. It's hard to grow into body after an inch or two, let alone nine. You know what mean? And he's had multiple growth spurts. I remember when Riley first won, uh, clay court, spring, spring nationals down at Delray. I had players at that tournament. He came through unseated. I was there at that tournament. I haven't coached some players and he went through the draw darned her unseated, kind of blew up, kind of robbed on the scene, beat two or three top seeds in the way. This is 12th. This is 12th, USDA 12th at Delray. I was there.

Parents were tall, saw his mom there, have since met his dad. Riley was a normal looking, just, I say normal, he's not normal now, he's just seven feet tall, non-bearded, know, kid, running around the tennis center, you know, happy to beat the seat. Like any other 12 year old when you get to the semis of a national tournament. I have seen Riley play on multiple occasions since then, and I still see, you know, he is as much of

That's his DNA as Sebastian Baez. He's got a bomb serves. He's got to tag balls. He had a stint there where he was doing all certain volleys. He's trying to come in and crash the net. He's had a stint where he's trying to play baseline and been more solid. He is in a sense fixed to his point by his height. Somewhere in the middle, that over to the window, right? Now you come in between the six, seven, right? The six, seven, six, six of things. And now you're in your medi, your zverev.

That's what I saying when come back to zero. These guys have height to be tall, taller than the most, but still mobile, still very adept at going back and forth, change directions on clay, comfortable coming forward, but still having the levers to go with the Big Sur.

Alvin Owusu (14:04.182)
Those two both though, both Mehdi and Zverev, this is a really good example and this is something that Chris Eubanks pointed out in our episode with him a couple weeks ago. Plug, if you haven't seen it, I'll also link that one in the description. Go watch it, it was fun. He was talking about Sasha Zverev, like one of the misconceptions about him that fans just don't understand. And the point was that because his levers are so long and his shot production is so long,

He cannot stand that close to the baseline. He has to back up, because it takes time to literally, if you're on YouTube, you can see this, if not, I'm sorry, move the arms, right? It takes time. Meti plays off the baseline. Again, very tall. He's gotta move the arms. Juxtaposed to that, someone like Andre Agassi, shorter, more compact levers, more compact swing on the baseline, chooses to, in his day, choose to take your time away, not with like,

huge angles and using width, per se, he was on you because he had to be. He can't back up that far.

Torrey Hawkins (15:11.275)
Sure. But he was also world class at it. And I think, and that's where maybe, and maybe there's a lot of players I teach on the rise, Alvin, as you remember, our academy was called on the rise. Few can do it to the level that Andre Agassi did. So that's all I'm getting at. mean, and I've seen a lot of good players over the years.

Alvin Owusu (15:16.658)
The hand eye part, for sure.

Hehehehehe

Alvin Owusu (15:28.286)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (15:34.091)
There's at some point, you know, there was a great expression. I think we were at San Jose at the SAP tournament and there's this big the San Jose sharks, I guess they are. They have this big, you the wall. Hard work beats talent, right? When talent doesn't work hard and then on the other side of the wall, but when talent works hard.

Alvin Owusu (15:54.317)
Right, that's kind of, there you go.

Torrey Hawkins (15:57.229)
Now there's a point right there. There's a part of that saying we don't ever hear about as much as we should. But when talent works hard, it's unbelievable. And exactly, you everyone loses. So anyway, that's the point I'm gonna mention that with Mr. Agassi's on the ride skills. So we come back to the Overton window of Yannick Center. Alvin, he just has maximized a little bit of everything. He is perhaps the taller Agassi for this description.

Alvin Owusu (16:04.778)
You lose.

Torrey Hawkins (16:23.235)
with his on the right skills, with his ability to attack. Much like I feel that Carlos's athleticism has let him play bigger than his six foot frame, I feel like Yannick plays a more of a nimble, dare I say shorter, compact and maneuverable at six three. And both of them have their perks.

History will tell us who the better, you know, which one was suited more for the high end and who has a better tally at end of the day. But I just feel like Yanuk does a lot of things well.

that a person at 6-3, here to four has not done. There's a plug for ace. I also feel like a lot of those other things, the on the rise, the movement, the sliding on the clay grass and hardcore are all things that he happens to do well. And being 6-3, he used it to his advantage. He has the wingspan. He attacks and returns like a guy who was not a short, but he still has decent enough serve. I think once you get past 6-6-6-7, I know myself as a coach, I start thinking

a little bit more monotheistic, if you get what I'm saying, about how to get your game. Dude, you're 6'7", we're gonna have that big serve, we're gonna come in behind, have, it almost becomes part of part of a, of tried and true speech. Oh, you're 5'7", all right, so we're gonna have to grind a little bit here, we're gonna have to, we're not gonna be to win any free points, I can almost hear myself going through my whole spiel.

Alvin Owusu (17:36.662)
Sure, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (17:55.585)
And what center's been able to do is to bend that good aggressive counter punishing returner who got a big serve. And by the way, I'm 6'3". Much like Carlos has been the, but if you can hit it big enough.

after you run it down, you might be able to take that ball line if you can get there, if you're that fast. And I think that's where the two of them kind of go against the grain a little bit. We talked about this with Chris, and perhaps that's where the genius starts a little more in my opinion is they have not stayed true to that initial cloth they were cut from. They have now, like an avatar,

Alvin Owusu (18:14.101)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (18:33.807)
and I'm talking about Ang Avatar, not the blue people. He has brought in the other elements of the fire, of the water and the earth, him being an airbender. So that's kind of what I think, and that's what I think we're witnessing with one Yannick center. And don't sleep, I can't see Carlos as far behind. Currently he's ahead of the tally right now, but I feel like right now we have to give the man his due. He's played...

different styles. He's played different surfaces. I gotta think he's gotten or no, no, he has more friendship has it. he's this will be his career slam. Correct. Coming up. Correct. Is that so I just think the man is I think he's on a crash course with history right now and I think he's done he's putting the work. I think of DJ Khaled in that commercial put in that work. Devin, you know, he has a hundred percent put in that work and I just feel like he's done a lot of things to get to this

Alvin Owusu (19:07.167)
No, not yet.

Correct.

Torrey Hawkins (19:28.805)
moment and I gotta say, he does not look like he's finished. He does not look, he looked like he's getting warmed up right now.

Alvin Owusu (19:36.278)
So this is, yeah, the right now that you speak of is kind of this run that he's on from Indian Wells through Madrid. take we're on five, Indian Wells, Miami, Monte Carlo, Madrid, that's four straight Masters. I know it's five overall, but four tournaments in a row here. I think Doha might have been in there. Doha was before Indian Wells, whatever. He's ballin' right now, right? He is.

fallen in a way that makes no sense. We've seen very few streaks in men's tennis like it. And it's not really just the matches tallied one in a row or anything like that. It's the way that he's doing it. He's making, he's making really, really good players. And I think this is a really interesting case because he has beaten the now number two player in the world, right? Carly beat Carlos in Monte Carlo. He, Novak's not playing right now, well, Rome, but.

And he's beaten Zverev a few times. He's taken on the children. He's beaten Medvedev. He's taken all the young guys. Beast came in balling, beat him down. He's taken on Hodar. That was a fantastic match. We'll get to that one later. He's beaten the Fonsecas. mean, he's beaten Lerner Tien. He's beaten FAA. He's beaten everyone. And I think that not only speaks to how well he's playing right now, but it also provides us a nice little kind of

Backdrop in front of which we can take a look at why those matchups are a little bit different What specifically he's doing to Sasha's Vera, which is a interesting case now He effectively owns Sasha whereas in it and medvedev where previously they were you know, they were up on him very similar to all the old now band in Federer switcheroo there

But I want to kind of talk about those, but then also this other idea that I teased in a previous podcast when Patrick visited was the idea that Yannick Sanders 24 years old, Carlos is 23. I think he just turned 23 like yesterday. So 24 and 23. When Carlos hit the scene five years ago ish, 2021, 2002, right?

Alvin Owusu (21:57.548)
Five years ago, Rafael Hodara was 14 years old, right? Fonseca was 14, 15 years old. So, you know, junior players, they watch the guys on TV and they start to do some of these things. I remember I was, you know, some years ago was teaching in an academy out in Austin and we had our kids, our kids were sliding. Like this is in 2014, 2013. This is like the Novak impact, right? And...

But those same kids now are in their mid twenties. They are the same age as Yannick Center. So the, the impact of these guys is now starting to show up on their tour. It's happening now, right? In real time. And I think that's the really cool thing because Yannick Center is effectively the, the, the souped version of Novak Djokovic, right? And this is where, you know, we talk about

Torrey Hawkins (22:38.563)
Yep. Yep. Sure. In real time.

Alvin Owusu (22:55.588)
rivals and things of that nature.

Roger was doing his thing and then he got, he got kind of interrupted by Rafa. Rafa was doing something completely different. He got, well, he was posed with a different challenge.

Torrey Hawkins (23:04.387)
Yeah, I would say he got caught. Yeah, would say that was... Sure, that he... And let's give both men their due. They both were great for the various eras. And I think one being just slightly younger than the other was certainly a great timing thing for Rafa. And I feel like, I don't think we'll ever see anybody...

win nine slams in three years. I mean, ever again. mean, was, Fad had it on lockdown, literally on lockdown for, you know, for the better part of three to five years. And I say that to say ousting and dethroning the previous King of the Grass and one Pete Sampras, which up to that point in time had the most Grand Slams of all time. So that's not just some Grand Slam champ. That is the Grand Slam champ at the time, on his best surface in grass. So you gotta kinda...

We to, we have to kind of put these into perspective. You know, that's like, it's like beating Jordan, you know, in the nineties, you know what I mean? And, and taking them out and outscoring Jordan, you know what I mean? In, in, in the 99s, in Europe, you're on any other team but the Bulls. So it's, it's hard to put that in context unless you were there. And I know that's a different situation. I'll just say it to say, that's how good, that's how good Pete was playing. So when Rafa came through, I say Pete.

Alvin Owusu (24:17.407)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (24:28.367)
Roger was playing. So when Rafa came through, in my opinion, Roger peaked a little bit, you know what mean? And so now you got your boy coming in, fresh your legs, I own the clay. It's just a matter of time before I figure out the other services. And then I want to say, was it that 09 or whatever? That was that pivotal max that kind of where Rafa kind of found his legs a little bit and started realizing I can play on this stuff too now. And I just feel like...

Alvin Owusu (24:37.407)
Well...

Torrey Hawkins (24:57.913)
That was just a special blend of just the perfect storm. And I don't wanna come back to this one here. I just feel like what we're witnessing in this moment is another perfect storm brewing. But the key is, the key for me is.

Yannick is doing it by morphing two or three different players and his height gives him an advantage, but he's doing things that nobody, nobody has been able to do on those same surfaces up until this point in time. And that's just the only thing I'm, I want to give the old school their props and their due. then I want, but I think that's the man of part, that's all.

Alvin Owusu (25:34.379)
Well, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (25:41.661)
No, yeah, yeah, it's more so the game style part here though. Rafa Nadal was the perfect foil for Roger Federer. Heavy lefty forehand goes into the high one-handed backhand cross court. That was like, if Rafa were right-handed, it's a completely different story, right? was, if Rafa liked to drive the ball, it's a completely different story. That was a, this game style.

Torrey Hawkins (25:52.301)
Roger Federer, 100%.

Torrey Hawkins (26:05.687)
If Rafa was a hard driving right-hander, he'd have played for UTexas and Mike Center would have been national champ. He may have sniffed second round of a challenger at Austin. You know what I mean? Just saying.

Alvin Owusu (26:11.782)
Exactly. Okay. So you're there with me. You're there with me, right?

Alvin Owusu (26:21.876)
So you've got one being game style matching up with, so Nidalee's game style comes in and matches up perfectly to Federer's game style, right? Okay, great. You move that rivalry forward and then Novak comes on the scene. What does Novak have that makes it, Novak has the thing that foils Rafa's thing. You wanna go high to that back end? Fine, I'll take that thing, I'll rip it down the line. No problem, all right? And then so then they tussle, right? And then all three of them, you know, we,

what they did is very well documented, know that on that path. But when you start seeing the next generation coming after them, like what was the, I wouldn't say any of them have style morphed to dethrone Novak, Novak is just, he's just sun setting, that's all he's doing. And if you catch him, if you're slipping, he'll catch you, one of these young fellows on a good day, right? So, but with the center of things and the,

Alcaraz of things and the generation that is coming after them. They are almost spawning versions of themselves now. And so when I watched the specifically the match against Hodar and a lot of people have kind of said the same thing, especially center fans. See you guys. They're like, it's kind of like watching. It's kind of like watching center. He's trying to do a lot of the same things. And it's like, yeah, he, it should be. He's been watching center on TV for the last four years.

Torrey Hawkins (27:41.935)
young boy.

Torrey Hawkins (27:49.135)
100%.

Alvin Owusu (27:50.027)
Yeah, and that's how it goes. But I would say you're starting to, you're going to see more of these coming if they have the size and they have the court coverage. And I think that movement part with center is really the, it's not just the movement, it's the flexibility, which you kind of talked about a little bit earlier, but that allows him to play shorter, if you will. Like he can shrink himself when he needs to.

Torrey Hawkins (28:13.305)
do what he does. He plays shorter. It's a group, but right. He's like, he's like your Porsche that can, when you get into, into a Porsche, can lower itself, you know, literally get even closer to the ground. And I think, which again, you know, where I mentioned it with Alcraz a few minutes ago, he can play taller with the size of his ball and his strike zone is pretty high. And he's, he's got no problem hitting the ball on the shoulders and no problem whipping it up below his calf muscle.

Alvin Owusu (28:24.776)
Yeah, lower itself. Yeah, exactly.

Torrey Hawkins (28:41.965)
So his head strike range is limitless. Right, 100%. And has no problems, Riley. I mean, which is even more unfair for a guy six feet, losing almost a foot in height differential, where I feel like Yanuk has found a way to play shorter. And by the way, I'm still six feet when it comes to serving. And so that's what I was getting at with my long-winded diatribe is.

Alvin Owusu (28:45.47)
he's probably got the same strike range as Riley, but being seven inches shorter or right.

Torrey Hawkins (29:10.083)
You got the guys at the high, high end who are almost serve bots, almost by definition, by coaching, by game. Maybe that's all they can do. I don't know. Maybe Riley's can go 30 balls side to side on clay and change direction. I haven't seen it. I don't think Riley has yet either, but he's clearly 6'11", 7'8", tall and is just unfathomably tall and has great court coverage and gotten a lot better over the years, by the way. But by definition, him and Baez are playing within the cards they were dealt.

and they're playing with what they have. That's all they can do. Now you come down to the 6'6", 6'7", medis, and even in the yesteryear, you got guys like Isner and got guys like Sam Quarry, you know, who were taller and smacked the crap out of Sam. Had a huge forehand and had a big serve. John had great game. Actually played some balls pretty clean on the rise. Had real good feel. Massive serve. You know, still will go down as the best, longest matches in history, right? And that'll never get broken.

before his match with Mahoot and Wimbledon. And then you go on the flip side of that. You got the 5'11 guys. You know, got the gearing up toward, you know, six feet guys. The guys that are right there, you know, your Hewits, your Agassiz, your guys that were Grand Slam champs and just maximize what they had, but they were a little taller than Baez, right? So, and now you've got this new sweet spot with the taller generation of players. And that new sweet spot.

just happens to rest at 6'3". But I'm just saying if it were 6'2", if it were 6'4", it would be whatever height Yannick Sinner is right now. Because if he was 6'5", if he was the same height as Taylor Fritz, we would say the same thing. That's all I'm saying. I just feel like the boy's bad out. The boy is just bad. And he has found a way to move around and, you know, I can almost get a vision of Darren Cahill.

Alvin Owusu (30:46.386)
Right, yeah, not, let's not, let's call it spade to spade here.

Torrey Hawkins (31:06.895)
having, you know, Dartfish and a stopwatch playing virtual tennis, trying to, I just watched the movie F1 on the plane twice. I thought it was a good movie, but how they were just trying to find a second here and there, right? They were just trying to find a second. And I feel like Cahill has got the stopwatch. He's got the video going. You gotta get there half a second faster. I mean, like per shot. And I feel like they've gone through the video. got.

They got whatever, Claude, Chad GBT, whatever, and they got AI over there spitting out scenarios, playing virtual tennis, and he's over there moving on the clay, just, I got it, run it back, give it to me again. And he's just moving and grooving to play these types of shots. And Alvin, I'm telling you, he's taken movement from a necessity to an art form, and he's taken it to such a high level that...

His time that he's taken away from you is almost a half a second to a second per shot. You're behind and don't even know it. I watched, I watched Vera's other matches. He wasn't playing bad tennis. He had so much more time. And in that match with Yannick, Alvin, he looked like he was behind from ball three. Now I'm not saying he can't have a bad day. I'm not saying that Yannick doesn't have his number. Both could be true at the same time, but

that he was hitting those. Yo, I'm gonna a great match against him, right? mean, but Feast did not play bad at all. Feast was not ready for the barrage of, and was not ready for, and my big ball that I go all in on, and it comes back three more times, and I gotta now fall backwards hitting that same ball, or then the drop shot comes? Come on now. I mean, who's ready for that? So that's what I'm saying. I just feel like we have to take a moment, to your point earlier, and a

Alvin Owusu (32:51.882)
And now you're done.

Torrey Hawkins (33:00.175)
appreciate what Yannick is putting out right now. He's putting out some tennis. We haven't seen this level of dominance in a long time. And that's because it doesn't happen very often. And that's 100 % credit to him. I think there was a gap already. I feel like he's separating that gap even a little bit more, which usually you'd see the pack start to catch up. You know what mean?

They ain't catching up, Alvin. Not for a while yet. He is still taking the lead and running with it. And I'll be honest, as a fan of the game, I'm happy to see where the levels he's taken this to. The tour will catch up eventually, but for right now, man, it is something to see.

Alvin Owusu (33:46.984)
mean, he's pretty locked in right now. And it's, you know, the last thing on the high-peat, I think the way that the game is actually growing, it's not necessarily the top of the game, I think it's the rest of the game in that you look at the Zverev is 6-6, Taylor Fritz you mentioned is 6-5, Mehdi is about 6-6. But none of these guys, like Serven Vali, they all move, their games are built from the baseline.

That is the part, the movement piece of the players who are so tall these days. Being able to move as effectively as well as someone who is 6'1 or 6'2 to a certain extent, they do have to give up some space to do it, but they can do it. Whereas if you go back, you know, go back 20 years, right, you're not gonna see like Richard Krychek moving that way, right? You're not gonna see even Goron, little bit, not that tall, think Goron's like 6'3 or 6'4 maybe, but.

Torrey Hawkins (34:44.559)
You were maybe a little tall now, but to your point, yes.

Alvin Owusu (34:46.653)
but not moving, like not playing that way, not moving that way. That's the part that has changed. Like they can hang with.

Torrey Hawkins (34:49.794)
Right? I thought it was a full 6'3", almost 6'4". I remember walking past him in the locker room a few times, much taller than you thought he was, much, much bigger than you thought he was. But he was pretty nimble for a guy his size and his height. And he wasn't a very skinny guy. He's probably skinnier now than he was back when he played. But boy, could he move. And I felt like he was, that's why Saffron was dangerous. He had that.

Alvin Owusu (35:15.419)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (35:16.971)
at that age, at that size, excuse me. So I just feel like what we're seeing now, and I wanna go back to this last point before we move on.

Your six, nine, no kid is six, nine when you get them, right? They're four, nine, right? And they get to be six, nine when they're done. Your four, nine kid that you think is gonna be tall and lanky, you start leaning in as a coach, you start leaning in on their serve. It's not that you don't work on the returns, you have to work on the returns, but you start working on their serve more, because that's gonna be the weapon. Your five, eight kid who is...

four feet or four or five, when you get them, you know they're not gonna be very tall. You look at the parents, you look at the kids, you look at the older brother, okay, he's not gonna be very tall. You start working on returns more, start working on the inside out point a little quicker. You start working on the drop shot gets and the on the run shots. You just kinda know he's genetically predisposed to be a certain level. My point, it's almost like somebody took a kid they thought was gonna be short and they trained him to have phenomenal returns and be a mover. And then he turned out to be.

six foot three wire with a decent serve. As opposed to giving him his skills first due to his height, he had skills first and then he grew. We talked about this a little bit with Ben about Ben Shelton when Chris was on the show. Almost counterintuitive, right? Ben didn't play a lot of junior tennis. The eight, 10, 12 years, seven kids play. He probably played a good six, maybe, maybe five.

But because of that, he came at it and he got all the highlights. He read the Cliff Notes from Junior Tennant, right? And then playing college tennis and figuring, hey, I'm getting the hang of this. Let me take it to the next level, right? And so even we're still seeing a version of Ben who's figuring this out.

Alvin Owusu (36:56.029)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (37:06.509)
Ben had a big serve. So that helped him go through the clip notes pretty, pretty quickly. And he, we're going to see a better version of Ben in the next five years. I was thinking of Boris Becker, right? Big serve, you know, came on the scene early and one went back to back at 18 and 19. Took him five years to get back to the top. You know, he finally learned the rest of the game. And I think we're to, we're seeing Ben now in that very similar fashion while he didn't win Wimbledon 18, 19. We're starting to see Ben kind of getting into his own.

Alvin Owusu (37:24.457)
Sure, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (37:36.455)
all this for context. Then you have Yannick, who was almost built from the ground up from the return game in, who now is tall enough, big enough to have a serve. And I feel that's where the full completion, when I say morph, I'm talking about in every game style, when you talk about the rock, paper, scissors of things, you know, whatever you want to call each one, the big server, big forehand is a style.

the returner, the guy that to run around and hit balls on the run is a style.

And then you have the person that grinds and it's heavy and it just kind of works your death and end up giving up many mistakes. That tends to be a style. By morphing those, what I'm getting at is you got a big server that can grind or you got an attacker, right, that can also, that can also serve big, right, which doesn't happen all that often. When you, again, the avatar state, when you start putting all these three or four things on top of each other, that's when you are extremely, extremely dangerous in the avatar because you really have

have all of the states, so to speak. And I think that's what we're entering in with you know, with the Onyx Center. And I really feel like he has mastered or is mastering movement for a guy his height. He's mastering defense for a guy his height. He already had great returns. He already had a pretty good serve. And now he's mastering coming forward on the clay. He's mastering the drop shot, which I think he kind of stole a little bit from Carlos, right?

Alvin Owusu (39:04.243)
Sure, everyone needs it.

Torrey Hawkins (39:05.847)
And my point being, and Alvin, starting to just stack. It's like AI, he's starting to learn what other players are doing and adding them to his repertoire. So it's a very fun time right now to watch Yannick center process and assimilate the game like he's doing. as I say, as a tennis purist, I'm loving it because he's just showing what's possible. You know what I mean? For me and lot of others.

Alvin Owusu (39:28.681)
wanna go back to the point you made about his ball speed and what it did to Arter in the semifinals in Madrid. And Madrid's a weird place. It's very fast, extremely high altitude. It's not your typical clay court scenario, but whatever, they're all playing on the same surface. Yeah, but we'll take it for what it is. Everyone's playing on the same surface, so whatever, it's fine. The ball pace part.

Torrey Hawkins (39:46.344)
and drive, drive fast.

Sure should.

Alvin Owusu (39:58.174)
I think is the, it's the one you can't see on TV, but like Chris alluded to it, I've seen Yannick practice a time or two and it is a different sound and it's easy for him. Like he hits it, he produces that power quite naturally. He doesn't hit it and then he looks at a position for the next ball when he hits it, it's all within him. So I say that's the thing that allows him, I believe, to stay.

Torrey Hawkins (40:13.795)
Who is it? Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (40:28.273)
on top of people. That's the thing that pushes them backwards and then allows him to start going line on, know, kind of seemingly whatever he wants to, but he, he's produced that ability to go line off of the ball that he's forced you to hit. And then also like, how does that, how do you see that pace impacting? I'm speaking specifically about Sasha, Sasha's Verov.

Torrey Hawkins (40:29.689)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (40:57.469)
Why is Sasha seemingly not going to be able to get over this hurdle?

Torrey Hawkins (41:04.291)
So I'm going to give you a distinct illustration. Wolverine.

His mutant ability wasn't his claws. The adamantium was an addition. His mutant ability was his ability to heal. Sinner's mutant ability is his movement.

Alvin Owusu (41:24.349)
Yes.

Torrey Hawkins (41:31.373)
That movement produces the claws. His atomantium is his ability to go line, go behind you, go drop, come in, right? But it's underpinned by the movement. What happens to Zverev? Zverev is not only older, he's a generation older in terms of coaching, style and technique. He is the best six foot two guy that happens to be six, six, almost six, seven in court coverage.

Alvin Owusu (41:50.195)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (41:59.713)
He moves like a guy 6'2". He moves like a better sather, if you think about it that way. Open stance on both sides, no problem. Step in, no problem. He needs a little bit of time, but he can crank when he needs to, clean or serve. He just manages his time. He manages the court extremely well. But when that time is altered.

he doesn't handle it for long and he isn't not in it long, nor does he have the ability to defend it much longer than three or four shots. Because at that point he is out of time. Sasha Zverev has a very distinct pattern of rolling forehands and driving on the rise backhands. He will take you cross forehand, line forehand to take the next backhand on the rise. He does it.

like he knows his name. It's just a standard one-two pattern. He'll go up and stand on the forehand. He almost always sits on the backhand. And when he really wants to, he'll lean on the backhand on you and just take you deep, knowing you can't do much. At that point, he can take you anywhere he wants. Yannick's center counters that whole narrative and says, I'm going to run your backhand first. Because I know if I can run your backhand, you're not going to hurt me on the forehand side.

So I'm gonna take you inside out or take you line first on the backhand and that gets Sasha, which he doesn't have this many people. He has to go open stance first on the backhand side. And now Sasha's very mortal. Because he hits an open stance backhand like Mike Mosley will open stance back and he's gonna get the ball back and play. Hoping that you come back to his backhand again or if you go to his forehand he can lope over the elbow at his six foot seven, six foot six try to get you back on the court. Hoping you come back to the backhand one more time. What does Yannick do?

He goes back behind you again, especially on the clay. He says, let's run that back. I want to get you really out of court position. Because like I said, you can't hurt me on the forehand side. So I'm going to run you to this backhand. And then when I finally go inside in, instead of waiting for you to get back to the patty you want, I'm going to come forward. I'm going to drop shot you. as he's done now the last couple of months, he's starting to come forward and knock you off with the volley. He will not ever solve this issue, Alvin, until he has a big enough forehand to keep.

Torrey Hawkins (44:18.051)
Yannick honest on the downline side until he starts serving absolute bombs and just hold serve at 15 or love every time. And unless he starts to come forward a lot more than he's done and he's been a lot more potent on his downlines himself because if you give Yannick the three to four balls he needs to set up, you won't see the ball you want in the next five. And love Sasha.

Alvin Owusu (44:42.93)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (44:46.447)
I've known him for a long time. New Misha, his older brother, I've known those very family for long, time. This is not something he will solve easily, if at all. And I think what I'm getting at is that it's fundamentally an issue that at this point, I just don't see, I see both players being pretty dyed in the wool. He's not changing at this point. And I think center knows that and center has the ability.

to just expose a thing that most people in the tour in the history of last 10 years haven't been able to find. up, Zverev beats everybody else pretty routinely. Let's be honest, the guy's been on the floor, the reason why, why, is because this is not bad. And his core coverage is without match on everybody else. But then you talk about a guy that could actually get him out of a strike zone. You know how hard it is, Alvin, to go from a down the line forehand?

Alvin Owusu (45:27.688)
Yeah, there's a reason why they keep playing each other in the last day or two of the tournament, because...

Torrey Hawkins (45:45.839)
to a guy at the top three in the world's level open stance backhand and you can get around it and hit another inside out? This guy's not floating and slicing and rolling balls out. He's hitting the ball. And you get around that ball and go inside out again?

That's a level of speed that I don't think people are understanding. And he does it time and time again in the same point, not just in the match overall. I gotta watch out for him when he takes it. And by the way, his back ain't bad either. You know what mean? So that's what you're dealing with. You're dealing with a guy with multiple weapons that is now figuring out the best way to play you. He doesn't have a weakness at this point. He just doesn't. He, Pete?

conditioning and an off day. And I don't mean that, like he can't be beaten, please don't me wrong. The two are very different. He can be beaten. He just doesn't have much of a weakness is what I'm saying. And so there's nothing to exploit, my point.

Alvin Owusu (46:50.088)
I mean, yeah, you gotta back him up, right, which is easier said than done because one, he's the top server on tour right now and also the best returner on tour. So I don't know any other way to start points. So if he's the best at both of them, then you're gonna have a tough time managing your way through backing him up, right? He's starting, he's, right, that thing right there is the, that's the new problem.

Torrey Hawkins (47:10.447)
and he's got hitch kick backhand on the backhand side. He does that like he like, and if you thought about hitting the old looper to my backhand, I got this thing called the hitch kick.

Alvin Owusu (47:22.44)
That was what came out of the US Open. like, know what we're not gonna do anymore? We're getting rid of that problem. There's one pattern with Yannick and Sasha that I've seen countless times now. Since 2023, I Senators won the last seven in a row against Sasha. This is number one and number three we're talking about here, right? Or number four, depending on where you put them. It's that cross-court backhand to backhand exchange where Sasha's very of like,

Torrey Hawkins (47:25.343)
That's right.

Alvin Owusu (47:52.137)
That's where he makes his money, right? He can go backhand cross courts with the best of them all day long. But as soon as, know, as soon as Sasha crosses over to hit a backhand close to the alley, Yannick burns a line every, like the very next ball. And you would think that, okay, the idea here is maybe not take that ball cross court, let's take it line. Well, now we're also talking about that shot that

Yannick and Carlos make look so easy that's getting crossed back in from outside in the alley. It's like it's not that easy one What to Yannick's ball pace is also not something that you want to just like take down the line all willy-nilly, right? It's crosscourt is the smart shot But it's also the one he's looking for and he's gonna get on the baseline and if you get it pass him you get it across him Okay, he's comfortable taking the backhand line. You leave it middle. He's going inside. He's gonna run across or

You jump, he goes back inside out like you mentioned. It's a, he takes what you do, well think you made this point earlier. He takes what you do well and then takes it away from you. You wanna go right, I'm taking your right hand. You wanna try to post me up, I'm pushing you out. come up with something else. And that's, it's.

Torrey Hawkins (49:12.023)
And most players can't handle that Alvin. They can handle you countering them. They can't handle you taking it away from them. They can handle you making them beat you another way. That's tennis and that's pro tennis at its finest. But they can't handle four ways you're trying that all get countered. At some point, frustration dials in and you're now doing something that you don't do that often. You may do it every once in a when you're playing well. You're doing that just to hold serve. And that's...

Zverev was drop shot, now. Zverev was drop shot and serving and volleying. I mean, that's how bad it got to on his depth chart of game plans. Let's go to plan F and let's go rip, rip, drop because that might be something I may get at a point he may not see it coming, right? And unfortunately, he probably saw that after the third drop shot. I'm just telling you, think fundamentally, and again, Sasha is a phenomenal player.

He is a number three in the world for a reason. This brother is bad. And for him to be, again, he probably played some better tennis with other players. I know he had some tough sets. Didn't he go three with, who did he go three with? He had a couple matches that I thought he went three. Did he go through with Mensik? Was that the long match he had before? that Mensik? I think I know.

Alvin Owusu (50:27.495)
Possibly. I don't have the sketch.

Torrey Hawkins (50:30.433)
Again, just saying and again, but I thought he played Kaboli, beat Kaboli down. I mean, just played him straight. My point is he was playing a ball. He did reach the final last I checked. So we're not talking about a guy that stumbled through and bumble through him, somehow got lucky loser and they called him up and said, hey, by the way, you know, the guy sprayed his angle. Can you play the final? This brother got there on his own and was playing some great tennis. I just feel like center is just a tough, tough matchup and centers back and it's also very good. And just like.

You mentioned with Novak countering Nadal, I just feel like center is able to counter Alexander Zverev so well on that side and that he will go line and doesn't mind if you go line and run him again. Zverev.

will go line and he's a little more worried about being ran to that side. He doesn't want to pop you down the line with his next forehand. He'd rather come forward or rather volley and he would not rather going over there and lacing you hard big up the line on the move. And I think again, back to a point about game styles and about preferences. He's just not wanted that. So that's why he will stay cross-court to not give you that chance. But that's all music to Yannick's ears because Yannick knows, no, not yet. One more backhand cross. Yeah, not yet.

of that sideline. You're not gonna go line. I know you're not. Because you know I can handle your line better than you can handle my line. So you're gonna keep it crossed. You know why? Because that's what you're gonna do. All things are gonna equal. And I'm just waiting for the inevitable. You're gonna get one step closer with that crossover and that closed stance backhand. And when you do, buddy, gotcha.

Alvin Owusu (52:08.965)
With that being said, as we look forward to, think this forthcoming Roland Garros is, it's really, really interesting as we move ourselves closer to the actual draw coming out. I mean, it's not happening anytime soon. It's still three weeks away, at least. But the way this tournament's gonna shake out, and this is how I feel, right? Obviously, Yannick Center is the odds on favorite.

Torrey Hawkins (52:19.599)
Mm.

Alvin Owusu (52:36.047)
Right. He's going to be the one seed such as very, it's going be the two seed with Carlos being out, being out. Okay. Kind of question mark is like, where does Novak land? Like where does the, where does the three seed land top or bottom? Okay. And then after that, let's say, let's say Novak lands on the top. Right. I then think the bottom 64 of Roland Garrel-Smith's draw is going to be the wildest half of a draw.

Torrey Hawkins (52:45.551)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (53:03.949)
No.

Alvin Owusu (53:05.735)
Like, yeah, Sasha would be my betting favorite, but like, could I see him losing to like, Sarundalo or something like that? Could I see him having a knockdown drag out with Minshik? Like, could I see him catching Hodar in the third round or something like that? it's gonna be wild, right? And it all kinda depends on where Novak falls. If Novak falls on the bottom, it kinda, kinda some regularity.

Torrey Hawkins (53:18.145)
sure.

Torrey Hawkins (53:22.767)
100 % off.

Alvin Owusu (53:35.207)
It's probably gonna happen there, you would assume. And then it doesn't matter who else is on the top of the draw. That's dog food for Yannick Center at this point. So that's, I'm hoping for some interest there. And I know hope is not a strategy, let me live. Let me live.

Torrey Hawkins (53:51.503)
Hope it's not a strategy. I'll push back on dog food, by the way, but I get your point. I just hope we don't, I hope that it's as interesting as we're making it. And I think it will be. I get your point though. and 30 and in on clay.

Alvin Owusu (53:58.344)
okay, fair, fair, that's fair.

Torrey Hawkins (54:16.847)
can have a great day, you know what I mean? Against a guy who's 10 and in, having a little bit of a tough day, kind of working themselves into the tournament, and 30, 20, know, and in could say, I'm feeling it today.

Alvin Owusu (54:18.918)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (54:30.151)
Four through 30, four through 30, put them in a hat. Put them in a hat. Yeah, put them in a hat.

Torrey Hawkins (54:33.935)
4-9 for

Alvin Owusu (54:40.231)
Yeah, put him in a hat. That's what I'm saying. If we get Novak on center side, now we've literally, I mean, I still think Sasha's got the best chance, obviously. He's the one who keeps making it to semis and finals of all the major events. But it's three out of five. Put him in a hat.

Torrey Hawkins (55:00.783)
I agree. It'll be so with that last last note on the men's side of this whole clay of things. Clearly, Yanuk will be the odds on favorite for Rome. Anybody that you've seen up until this point in time that challenges him. I know you're a stats guy. I know you've done all the head to heads and so on.

Alvin Owusu (55:01.191)
It's gonna be fun. It's gonna be fun. It's gonna be fun.

Torrey Hawkins (55:24.937)
anybody from a stats side. I'm just clear looking at game, game style, matchups, just this, you know, my call it my eye test. I just feel like he's playing really well right now. Who on paper has he struggled with? Who on clay has his number whose initials are not C and A?

Alvin Owusu (55:44.635)
Yeah, that's an interesting one. mean, who has he struggled with? has struggled with anybody. But those who have been able to...

Torrey Hawkins (55:48.451)
Well, that's the thing. Even perennially, like even before this last year or two.

Alvin Owusu (55:55.848)
I that's the thing. think anything before 2024 doesn't even doesn't even matter. He's like a different he's a completely different player. But if you were to start to look at like players in the last three months who have challenged him and also challenge him in a like we're getting we're getting we're getting tiebreakers or like it's it's the highly contested they're all centered around the same size of player like Menchik beat him in Doha, right? Big guy, big first serve.

Torrey Hawkins (56:08.621)
Sure. Taking three, solo.

Torrey Hawkins (56:24.013)
Okay. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (56:26.171)
He beats Fonseca six and six in, was that Indian Wells? I think it was Indian Wells, yep. that counts, he Matty six and six in Indian Wells as well, okay. Again, Fonseca's not that big per se, but plays very big. I think it's, you know, even Mickelson five and six in Miami. Like that's another big, big guy. I think the Hatch thing in Monte Carlo was a little.

Torrey Hawkins (56:39.727)
That's a big ball.

Alvin Owusu (56:54.917)
That wasn't real. And then Hodar was able to get him into a tiebreaker. And then obviously Carlos. So.

Torrey Hawkins (57:01.921)
I like how matter of factly you say that I was real.

Alvin Owusu (57:06.343)
Well, mean, okay, sure. First match on, was it his first match on Cl-? No, was his first match, was round 16. sure, I'm willing to put that one aside. What I'm saying is, what is it gonna take? Yeah, you're gonna need show a certain skill set, right? You're not gonna be able to grind it out from the baseline and think you're gonna win this match. I mean, Meddy was about as close as that's gonna get, but Meddy's a different kind of grinder.

Torrey Hawkins (57:08.239)
I know what you're saying, but I'm just at how expensive...

Torrey Hawkins (57:16.907)
Yeah. Let's turn profile to your words.

Torrey Hawkins (57:27.843)
No.

Torrey Hawkins (57:32.783)
different beast altogether. His grind is like turning up your ball machine on level as high, on 99 and it doesn't go any higher. Moving into the back fence and aiming it low and watching it spit out balls sideways and that is Daniel. You know what I mean?

Alvin Owusu (57:52.239)
Yeah, right. So that's, can, we can almost put that one to the side, but big server and you have to get on him first. You have to have the ability and then the, conviction to do it early and do it often. think Fonseca is still like almost just naive enough to, to that, like, that's why he was able to pull it off. Right. Yeah. But you know, that young generation between the Fonseca and Hodara, right.

Torrey Hawkins (58:13.399)
Right. They're not knowing about it. Right.

Alvin Owusu (58:22.446)
four sets and three of them with the tire breakers against Yannick. like, take that, that's not nothing. It is,

Torrey Hawkins (58:24.687)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (58:29.326)
Yeah.

And, and center doesn't know them it either, right? So that, that, you know, and there's a big part of that. to your point, that could work in the young, in the young man's favorite blocks, you know, Yoda, you know, all of them, you know, obviously Fonseca, all those guys could be, could be right there together. I, I agree. I'm just asking. I, I agree with you. There's a certain ball patient in need. There's a certain height and the ability to deliver that same thing. Um, and to your point, Alvin, that whole six, three of things, if you're a six, three, it can hit a big ball. If you're a six, four, it can move, you know, uh, you're, you're right in any.

you know, needs standard deviation from that, right? It's still gonna be, if you are an inch higher, but have, but are pretty quick, or an inch shorter, and hit the ball big, and can cover the court, or have serve, it doesn't matter. You're the same in terms of what the ball sees, and the time that you're taking away, or allowing Yanick to not take away. Because Yanick plays guys that loop, and guys that, you know,

that kind of set up points, he counters them extremely well. I mean, like it's Cheerios. But he does struggle when you bring pace. He's just so much more consistent with pace than you are that that's his edge with you there. But you're right. He can be out hit from time to time, but boy, you better be accurate. You know what mean? had better.

Alvin Owusu (59:43.471)
Especially over best of five sets. Over five, I think it's just going to be the part about being able to do it more consistently. That will net itself out, I think, in best of five. But best two out of three, it's like, could get luck. You could take one, yeah, yeah, you could take one and then it gets interesting in the third. But yeah, you've gotta be able to move them and then you gotta be able to hit with them. And then you gotta have a good day.

Torrey Hawkins (59:55.727)
That's it.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:00.063)
Right. You can hop with that. Right. You can hop with that for sure. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:13.53)
Like you gotta have a good day. Right. Like Feast served like trash in the first set against him. think his first serve was like 25%. Like can Feast move with him? Sure. Can he hit with him? Sure. Not as well on the move. Like if Feast gets his feet set, he can hit the ball bigger than anyone. But Yannick's not gonna let you get your feet set, especially when you're hitting a lot of second serves. Like that's just not gonna happen. So.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:14.297)
and hope he has a bad one.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:31.341)
Right. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:37.999)
Thank

Alvin Owusu (01:00:42.436)
Yeah, you have to have those things and you have to have a probably a better than your average day and he has to have a worse than his average day. So, that long list of criteria means it's probably not going to happen. It's exactly what I'm saying. let's switch gears here. I know we were primarily going to talk about, we planning to talk about Yannick, but I want to take a little time here to talk about one Haley Baptiste from.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:53.549)
Right. So you're saying there's a chance.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:12.442)
The JTCC took down down a arena sabalinka last week in Madrid semifinal. Fantastic match. That was a roller coaster.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:22.735)
Yeah. And great roller coaster match from drop shot reviews to, you know, to, and she didn't look good at all in the first set out, but I mean, it didn't look good at all. mean, you know, kept it competitive there toward the end of the first, but to your point, and then just absolute fireworks was, what was she down? Three, five or four four or five match points? mean, and four, three, five, right. So was it three, five or four, five? She was down 15, 40.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:44.272)
Second serve and volley down match points.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:50.606)
She was down. She she defended match point like six times. I don't even remember it was a

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:53.825)
I'm unbelievable. mean, just played some unbelievable tennis and look calm as a cucumber doing it. I mean, just look at this, this is cool and just this chill. not that Haley looks overly emotional at most times, but she just mouths. So I was happy for her beyond the win itself to have the, know, a player needs the kind of I've arrived match. And I feel like, you know,

Alvin Owusu (01:02:01.435)
Yeah!

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:23.767)
She's been playing some great tennis, very, very, Haley's a weird player in the sense that she plays, you know, a lot of inside outs, you know, in a game of big backhands striking on both sides. She plays with a kick serve and a forehand inside out, right? And touch and feel and will come forward on you. She plays a lot more like, you know, a lot more like a...

you know, let's see a good male player from 10 years ago that she plays, you know, that she plays like a traditional, you know, tall Amazon type lady of today that's just cranking back hands and cranking forehands. She doesn't play at all like Coco. She don't play at all like Naomi. She plays like Haley. And I liked that about her game style. That's why I was happy to see that style have some success. And playoff, felt like it really helped her. It helped her to get that extra time. She knew when to go behind.

I feel like she and she had a pretty good pretty close match with severe the next day. I mean, I thought whatever the next next match was darned. I'll she's out on Mira and almost be mirror that next match. So I was I was happy to see that I was happy to see her. You know, just you know, I want to see it was like four and six the next match. I I think it was like 10, eight in the breaker. So she was right there even with Mira. You know what mean? So, you Mira obviously got to the final and you know, and was, you know,

a close of a set away from taking a three against Marta. I like, let me tell you what I like. I like watching Mira and Marta and I didn't feel like I was shortchanged in the final. You know what mean? After Sabalika went out. I liked that Haley was competitive even more with Mira, even though she didn't quite close the deal, to make me feel like that wasn't a blip. Was it just a good day and you know, she hadn't played well that.

I feel like when I see a player play a good match after that big win, that always tells me that that's their level. That might be their height of their level, but that's still their level. And I like seeing that. I was very happy for Haley. Haley played a tournament when I ran one of the ITS here in Atlanta many, many years ago and back at Lifetime. And so I've been watching the event and she's got that kind of.

Torrey Hawkins (01:04:45.103)
Fabio Fognini a little bit, but you don't know if she's tanking or you don't know if she's balling. And she can be tough to watch at times, but when she's dialed in, man, I mean, the girl can flat out smack a ball and has the touch, just the absolute, just the depth is a touch too, as well as cranking about 85 to 90 mile on forehand. I mean, you just like what, you like seeing that level of.

that range and then you like seeing it be successful against no more in the world. You know what mean? That's the ultimate.

Alvin Owusu (01:05:17.879)
Yeah. So the Fabio Fognini is, I would never make that comparison, but damn, that's good. That's actually, that I, this is just me. Neither Fabio nor Haley is my favorite player for the exact same reason. For the same reason.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:24.577)
You

Alvin Owusu (01:05:39.878)
I once described Haley Baptiste, a match with Haley Baptiste is like a rock fight, right? There's no, there's no, there's no rhythm to it. It's just rocks are getting thrown. Rocks hurt. Don't you get hit with one. That shit hurts. So like let's not disparage. Like the impact a rock can have on someone. And sometimes she throws stones, right? but also like has, has the pop, but then also makes you sometimes makes you feel like she's not.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:53.497)
Rockstar? Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:59.439)
Right, that's Yep

Alvin Owusu (01:06:09.923)
completely interested in the match. My personal style of tennis is more along the lines of I like the flow, I like the, yes, I can't really put my, I want my tennis to be more like jazz, I want it to have more of a rhythm to it. This is staccato, it's very, I can't catch.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:26.691)
Sure. Bye.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:34.681)
Like I watch an entire match and I'm like, took me a really, really, really long time to understand what Haley actually does well. But when you see her put it all together, it's like, that's, that's dangerous. That's dangerous. And she.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:41.007)
Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:46.859)
She plays the offensive style.

that is pretty much all in from the standpoint of she's not gonna wait around for you to do what you're gonna do. She's not gonna counter, she's gonna play her shots, she's gonna take her serves, and you're gonna take her cuts of the ball. And I think that's a very good plan for her. I think a lot of players need a little bit of rhythm. I think it's very smart for her to realize that she doesn't. Taylor Townsend doesn't even take ground strokes in warmup, which I like, because it speaks to what she knows she does well, and she wants to get what she does.

and I give in the Taylor Townsend of Things script, think Haley does Haley very well. And she's always hit the ball big. She's always had very clean ground strokes. She's always had, you know, she's, it's funny, as a player, she reminds me more of Francis than she reminds me of most players, right? And some of the players, I just...

Alvin Owusu (01:07:39.246)
You know I was gonna make that comparison and I like it's kind of a lazy comparison but like when you watch them play it's like Okay, both black tennis players come from the same tennis centers like it's actually they do play a lot alike

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:45.039)
They very similar games. They play a lot alike. And as lazes, they may look from time to time. They actually work pretty hard to get into position with that forehand. And both are very crafty, very good hands.

Alvin Owusu (01:08:02.425)
Yep, The comp, yeah, the comp is, right. It's, bless you, it's correct. I feel better hearing you say it, because I was thinking and I was like, Alvin, don't be that lazy, but it's like, no, it's right. It does, for sure. You mentioned, I wanna briefly, she over at, it's JTCC, right? Junior Tennis Champion Center.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:18.94)
It tracks. It tracks.

Alvin Owusu (01:08:31.929)
it's called outside of Washington DC or in Washington DC, guess just outside the city. Yep. and apparently they have, they have red clay courts there. And she says that red clay is her favorite surface, which is like kind of wild coming from an American. like, when you see her move, she's got like, I think of clay court players needing sturdy hips because of the, lateral movement and the needing to brace off of the outside foot so much. then, you know, all of that stuff.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:34.957)
Yeah, Yeah, call us for Maryland, think,

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:45.903)
There you go. There you go. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:02.125)
she's kind of built for it. And then she's got the touch. She doesn't necessarily play the, you know, the rhythm based game style, but she makes it work for her. But that forehand does have enough, like enough, enough spin on it to be dangerous and somewhat safe. If she, think for her, it's like finding that right, that right happy medium of like being herself and playing her aggressive game with just a

Torrey Hawkins (01:09:03.865)
Mm-hmm. I'll go. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:09:25.092)
right.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:29.923)
A little bit of margin.

Torrey Hawkins (01:09:31.887)
She also loves pace and I think that was the one thing that I think arena she goes back and looks at the tape that she should not have done. She should not have drilled so many balls because Haley's one those kind of players. Even the juniors I saw do this.

You hit your best ball, she actually feeds off of that best ball, that cleanness of that ball. You hit your mediocre ball, your normal ball, she'll take a crack at it. She'll miss one, she'll make one. She hits the winner on you, she'll make a mistake, but she will err more on herself, tracking, getting the, you know, if you will, the, what's the word I'm looking for? You know, the, finding that adjustment or the,

Alvin Owusu (01:09:59.78)
out hit herself.

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:14.959)
There's a good word for it.

calibrate it. That's what I'm looking for. Calibrating her forehand to your pace. Because she is taking such a big risk, mean, two inches out in front is darn near foot wide. that's the thing I'm saying for her. Because it's so big, because it can be a little flatter times on that second or third one she's kind of leaning in on, she takes a little bit to kind of... And that's why she can look very error prone at a certain point. The clay though, I find, gives her little more time. She calibrates easier.

Alvin Owusu (01:10:19.48)
There you go.

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:48.049)
dare I say faster and I think with given the pace I think that that actually that match dialed up I could see her I could see her going free with Arena again on the clay should they play again I don't know if I see that happening on grass I don't know if I see it happen on the hardcore but if they play it on clay again I I don't see that match being as much of a fluke now mind you Arena will play very differently right but I just on the clay I just feel like she has enough time to do what she wants to do she

Haley and I feel like that was a really good matchup for her and the right surface the way that it ended up and I feel like if anything Mira's rolled and Mira's sliced and Mira's hack and all the things Mira does right but it forces Haley to put complete points from start to finish and there's three finishes that you're gonna have to against her to finish her off and that's where you know Haley may not be

the most adept at yet. And yet the score was four and six, right? So I say that to say, I think she's gonna get better and hopefully about with the confidence from that win and getting to the semis, that would give her a little bit of confidence to make a good, decent run here at the French Open. Because here at the four, she's not done so at the slams.

Alvin Owusu (01:12:01.337)
Yeah.

Sure, sure, and now she's gonna be seated. And this moment's kind of been coming, right? She's been knocking on the door a little bit the beginning of this year. Went three with Rebecca at Indian Wells, which is kind of a harbinger. And then lost to arena, I it was like four and four in Miami right after that. So you start to see score lines like that, where you're taking a set off Rebecca, you play arena tight. It's like, okay, slow it down just a little bit. And now that win against arena,

doesn't look so surprising when you see that you see a player likes pace. She needs a little, just maybe just a little more time and, and, just like a confluence of events. mean, she, Arena could have won that match in straight sets, but that was, that match was a on the, on the rails, like, my goodness. It was, it was wild. It was wild. It was wild, but she, she remained calm. She fought off match point after match point after match point.

Torrey Hawkins (01:12:35.023)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:12:40.175)
another half a second.

Torrey Hawkins (01:12:48.676)
Good.

The whole, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:13:01.578)
Second serve in volley down match point to the

Torrey Hawkins (01:13:03.599)
And a volley lob. I mean, who lob volleys? Down match point, you. Over arena.

Alvin Owusu (01:13:09.218)
Yup, yup, it's sh-

Who does that? Who does that?

serious at the end and then, what, before we get out here, I want to kind of go back to a point that you just made about the, final imagery, between, Marta caustic and mirror Andrea. you said you enjoyed that match. What is it about? Like almost the antithesis of the, of the Haley Baptiste experience. What about that match and those two ladies game style, maybe specifically Marta?

Torrey Hawkins (01:13:33.123)
Yes.

Torrey Hawkins (01:13:37.592)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:13:47.892)
are you feeling high about?

Torrey Hawkins (01:13:52.087)
I fiercely contested. girls came up, ladies, excuse me, came out and were tagging the ball. I actually really liked Marta's conviction. I think she felt like she was due on a personal level. She looked like she was due. Like, this is my time. This is my time. She's always had that level of, know, a little bit of swag, a little bit of attitude. And I'm, you know, I'm here to win this thing, you know, and I was very happy for her. On the quality of the tennis though.

I thought that she, I thought Mira came out and played a much more aggressive second set. I told you when she lost to...

when she lost to your girl Vicky. So I said, Alvin, I'm telling you, Mira's starting to hit the ball bigger now. She did a losing effort in that match there, but she's been hitting a bigger ball ever since. She's not doing so much loops, so much retrieval. She's literally attacking the ball better. I thought she did a great job of that in that second set. I just felt like the quality of the tennis was very similar to what I would have seen with an Anisimova and a Sabalenka or a Rabakana and a Sabalenka.

or golf and it's Fiontec. I just felt like for two that had not been in that previous conversation, I felt like the quality of tennis, the quality of the points, the back and forth, it was, dare I say, more competitive than the Zverev Center Final. And I don't say that lightly, I say it to say it was a little bit more fun.

Alvin Owusu (01:15:17.507)
Ahem.

Alvin Owusu (01:15:22.349)
well, they have done. Right. Sure. Yeah.

were evenly matched.

Torrey Hawkins (01:15:30.095)
the watch, they were evenly matched and both players had enough firepower, enough defense, enough countering where it wasn't open and shut case. know, Mira was not close coming back in that second set and could have, and almost just fell short a little bit in that second where you felt like, you you felt like...

Here's another lopsided final for Yannick and Svaira. And mind you, Sasha didn't get out of it, didn't get out the gate very well. I think he won at first. He didn't get a game up to like five-oh or four-ones, something like that. I mean, he didn't, it was bad. I say that final without any of the others.

Right? Without Rebecca, without Coco, without as far as, without those other names, I didn't feel shortchanged at all in the quality of the match. And there's been other matches, Alvin, you and I both watched where the top seed gets beat or the seeds, plural. And you felt like that was the best match of the tournament. And the final, you're glad you didn't get a ticket to the final because you feel shortchanged. And that one, I didn't feel that way at all.

Alvin Owusu (01:16:33.273)
Right, right.

Gotcha. And Marta, she's been, you know, I saw her, my buddy Norm and I, what's up Norm? I know Norm's an avid listener of the podcast and he's a big Marta Kosik fan, but we watched one of her matches at the US Open together last year. I guess it had to be second round, something like that. you know, the part you mentioned about conviction with her, I think really like the forehand was just always just a little bit thinner than you would like it to be for someone who moves as well.

Torrey Hawkins (01:17:02.831)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (01:17:04.418)
and as big as she is and as athletic as she is, that it seems to be like she is actually hitting it with more conviction. And that's been the same thing kind of all year. If you go all the way back to Brisbane before the Australian Open, she makes a run there. She takes out three top 10 players in that tournament. beat Anasimova, Pugula, Andreeva, and lost to Sabalink in the final, right? And then goes to Australia, gets hurt in the first round.

Like in the blues in that match to Jackamo gets hurt and then comes back for the, the sunshine double two losses in a road or back in a, but like that's. know, we're back in a, they just won the one, the on-screen open. So when you see her then. When a two 50 and then come into Madrid and win this event, say, okay, something's something has.

potentially clicked for her. Like this is not out of nowhere. She's been playing at this level more or less all year, save for that injury in January, February. Marta Kostick loading, I don't know if I'm ready to say that, but does she have all the, when you look at the profile of the women at the top of the game, like do you move well? Check. Are you big enough? Check. Do you have the firepower? Check. Serves pretty good? Check. Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (01:18:04.804)
Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (01:18:28.815)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:18:30.403)
She's also right at that age of 24 too where they typically start to put it all together. Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (01:18:34.863)
Takes the aggressive player a little longer, I've always felt, to match the reps needed.

for it to not only be successful, but for you to start to have confidence in it and for it to be successful. By definition, it's risky. By definition, you will miss a lot. And by definition, you will lose earlier or not be a successful at a higher level. However, back to my San Jose locker room, when hard work, hard work, right? When you dial it in, it is phenomenal. And it is a weapon, you know, a weapon of weapons. And I feel like...

Alvin Owusu (01:19:02.207)
Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (01:19:12.911)
Hats off to those players that push through that level to get to that point. Hats off to those players that are, and those coaches and teams that believe in that players, you know, I wanted to get this level. Now, you also have to know you're playing with dynamite, right? TNT can blow a hole through a mountain, they can blow your hand off, right? You you gotta be careful because not all who like to play that way are really good at it. And I feel like that's where, you know, Marta's movement.

allows her to play the ball that big. It allows her to take those kind of cuts at the ball, right? And so I think that's, again, back, but we said that earlier with one six foot three redhead. So you gotta kind of match those things together. And I really felt like that she did, you know, that she, her game's coming into its own right now. Love seeing it. I would love to see her continue to kind of make a nice.

run here before before the French, you know, the the top 10. There's there's a there always seems like there's another four to five, you know, clawing to get into the to that top 10. That's it's going to It's something it's something serious. What was Marta going on? Was she was she eight nine or was she right outside?

Alvin Owusu (01:20:14.839)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

She's right outside, think she's like somewhere, she's like 15 or so in the world right now, so yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:20:27.055)
I was gonna say, I thought 15, 15 or so. And that's another reason why I like it. I'm like, this is good for her. This is good for her to have a tournament like that and to do her thing. So again, I'm just happy to see it. As I say, she didn't disappoint and she beat Mira. I don't think Mira played horrible and play, there's some things that were not.

as classic Mira. I also feel like Mira's kind of doing a little bit of a morph right now herself. She's kind of changing a little bit what she kind of feels her game is and she's being a lot more, a lot cagier, a lot bigger in the corners than her standard loop and slice and kind of...

Mira's always had this almost conservative aggressive play, right? She's gonna go heavy, heavy, heavy. I'll drive one, okay, then I'll try a few more over here. I'll take you on the rise. And then, you know, 12 points in, I'll take two big forehands, you or try 12 shots and I'll take two big forehands. And just to kind of see if I can finish you off with a little swinging volley angle, right? It's almost a depth of a thousand cuts. I'm just gonna get you eventually. And I feel like she's starting to just hit a bigger ball because she knows she has to. Tall than you think she is, right, Mira?

Alvin Owusu (01:21:38.741)
Yes

Torrey Hawkins (01:21:39.087)
She doesn't move as she's not a Jazz and Paulini in the corners, I'll tell you that. But you got to also make sure that happens. You're giving up something aren't you? You're giving up a little bit of time. I just really like seeing her get to another final, especially post her getting bounced out of India Wells. And it was good for me to see her continuing to work on her game to stay relevant because some of the, not everybody bounces back from that.

and reaches another final. clearly, don't, I could see Mary winning another 1000 at some point this year, just at the way she's playing right now.

Alvin Owusu (01:22:14.125)
Yeah, right. Well, we will, if she does, we will be here to talk about it. That's for sure. I think that's a place to put independent. Thanks for hanging with us. If you made it this far, please like, subscribe, yada, yada, yada. I'm Alvin, that's Tory, best of three, we are.