Bobby Reynolds on Why College Tennis Has Become the ATP’s Best Development Pathway

Auburn men’s tennis head coach Bobby Reynolds joins Best of Three for a deep conversation on the evolution of college tennis, player development, and the future of the NCAA system. Reynolds explains why college tennis is no longer a fallback option for aspiring professionals, but a legitimate high-performance pathway for players who need physical maturity, tactical clarity, coaching, and repeated high-level competition.

The discussion moves from Ben Shelton, Gabriel Diallo, Ethan Quinn, Cam Norrie, and Kevin Anderson into the day-to-day reality of building players inside a college program. Reynolds outlines how Auburn approaches technical changes, racket and string decisions, tactical identity, semester-by-semester development, and the long arc required to turn promising juniors into professional-level players.

The episode then turns toward the financial pressures reshaping college athletics. NIL, fundraising, conference realignment, and the near-loss of Arkansas men’s tennis all raise a harder question: can the same system producing professional players survive long enough to keep doing it?

Transcript

Alvin Owusu (00:00.253)
And welcome to another episode of the best of three podcast. I'm Alvin that's Tory and today we are joined by Bobby Reynolds men's head coach at Auburn University Celebrating I was at 10 years now Bobby. You've been in the been in the seat

Bobby Reynolds (00:13.998)
Man, time has flown by. Yes, 10 years.

Alvin Owusu (00:15.933)
I hear you, hear you. Bobby's accolades, they precede you, but I will repeat them to let the people know. Did spend 12 years on tour, played 17 Grand Slams, reached a career high of 63 in the world, College Days National Player of the Year in 2003, SEC Player of the Year, Vandy Hall of Fame inductee. Mr. Bobby Reynolds, welcome back to the Best of Three podcast.

Torrey Hawkins (00:17.297)
You ready?

Torrey Hawkins (00:39.953)
Yes sir.

Bobby Reynolds (00:42.413)
It's good to be back. I didn't know it was going take this long to get me back, but I appreciate you pulling me in and I'm excited to be back.

Alvin Owusu (00:49.105)
Well, you just had a whole season, just you had to work, right? Someone's gotta do it, someone's gotta coach them up. And you guys had a pretty good year this year. It seems like the Auburn program is slowly but steadily just like continuing to move itself up the ranks. How'd you feel about the season?

Bobby Reynolds (01:05.335)
Yeah, you know, think looking back, obviously, I think we'll finish, you know, anywhere in the low 20s. I haven't seen the final rankings, which will probably be our best final year-end ranking in, you know, honestly, about 15 years. So, exciting to kind of make some milestones, but, you know, I think as a coach and every coach you probably ever talk to, they look back on some of the opportunities that you squandered and just where we could have been.

Kind of with the with the group that we had so, you know, there was at one point Really with about three or four weeks left of the season where we were looking to possibly be a host be a top 16 team And that was ultimately our main goal as a program going into this year that we fell a little bit short and As you know and watching a you know, a lot of the college tennis and the NCAAs It's tough to go on the road and be successful. So, you know, it'll be another

carrot that we dangle out next year and hope to attain.

Alvin Owusu (02:08.88)
Okay, I would be remiss if I didn't bring it up. From your Vandy days to your days on the tour, see you're now always back with the swoosh. How does it feel to be back under the big check?

Bobby Reynolds (02:23.958)
No, it's great. Honestly, our guys love it. For me, think as I age, some of those things don't really matter as much. But again, yeah, played obviously at Vandy with the swoosh. My entire time on tour was with the swoosh. So really, to go to Under Armour felt a little bit weird. being with it for nine years, you kind of got used to it. So it's great, obviously, for our guys. I think the shoes are great.

Alvin Owusu (02:40.624)
Ha ha ha.

Bobby Reynolds (02:51.725)
to play in and at the end of the day, it's probably one of the, if not the biggest brand out there in the athletic world. So, excited to be back and yeah, our guys definitely like it. It's a good recruiting tool.

Alvin Owusu (03:08.828)
I I bet. From a recruiting standpoint, since you brought it up, I know we're gonna, there will be plenty of space for us to talk about the NIL of things and how recruiting has changed and morphed over the last few years in the college tennis space. But as your team has continued to get better, I'm sure you guys are starting to attract higher and better ranked players. When you look at the Pro Tour right now, and there are roughly, I don't know, 15 dudes in the top 100 right now who have played at least a year of college tennis.

How does the college tennis to professional tennis proven path that we've seen so far, how often does that come up and how are junior players looking at that when they're evaluating your team as a potential landing spot?

Bobby Reynolds (03:55.659)
Yeah, I think that's a huge recruiting tool, obviously, and a pitch from our standpoint as coaches, not just obviously my program, but I think just in college tennis. And I really think that the landscape has shown that it is a viable path, right? I even think if you look back 20 years ago when I came through college, right, you had a lot of guys that came through college that were able to then make it to top hundred in the world, whether it be singles or doubles.

I just don't think it was as publicized, right? So you really had to kind of look and dig and do some homework to figure out, who are these guys? Whereas I think now, I think the ITF, think the ATP, I think the ITA have done an amazing job of continuing to publicize everybody, whether it be in the men's, whether it be in the women's and the path that has come through.

I mean, I think also the partnership between ITA and ATP now, where if you finish in the top 20 of college rankings, you're getting challenger wild cards, either in the main draw if you're top 10, the qualifying if you're 11 to 20. So it just seems to be a huge partnership between all the different entities of college tennis and then onto the professional tennis because they are seeing the success over the past 10, 15, 20 years.

Alvin Owusu (05:20.508)
Yeah, walk me through that a little bit since I mean, I think it's really interesting that you've gone a gone the path that a lot of these guys are looking to go. You were a top, the top college player coming out of near in your class in a three, go three ish. Um, and then you had some opportunities and then you were able to make it onto the tour. If you were looking at your process, like kind of during your last year of college versus the, the kind of the benefits the guys have now, um, how does that compare contrast? Like, what is that? How does that.

How is that different now?

Bobby Reynolds (05:55.274)
wouldn't say it's different. think ultimately, I guess what's different, I think if you really, if you go back 20 years ago when we were going to college, those players weren't going to college because they thought they were gonna go play professional tennis. They were going to college because, this is an unbelievable opportunity for me to get a scholarship, to get a great education, to go play college tennis and be part of a team.

You know, do all of those type of things. That was kind of the intent of going to college back 20 years ago. If you were good enough, right, and you were at the level, whether you say the Roddicks and the Geneparys and some of those guys that skipped college, the Marty Fishes, right, they were already at the level. So they just bypassed college and were able to make it. And then I think you fast forward, you know, five years or even 10 years, right? Then you had some guys that tried to do the exact same, you know, paths, different paths.

Torrey Hawkins (06:36.091)
Right.

Bobby Reynolds (06:49.554)
And you had guys that didn't make it, right? So now all of a sudden it's like, man, it's getting tougher and tougher as you progress, you know, every five or 10 years, right, of the guys that are playing professional and the guys that aren't playing professional. So I think that's really where it kind of transformed into, man, like I can go to college, I can develop, I can mature, you know.

I don't really have any losses at the end of the day. If it doesn't work out at 22, 23, 24 years old, I have a great education to fall back on. And I still am able to go and see what I'm able to do out on tour for a couple years. So, you know.

Torrey Hawkins (07:28.209)
Kinda give us the both worlds a little bit there.

Bobby Reynolds (07:30.506)
Yeah, you do. have the best of both worlds right now. And college tennis has never been better as far as a level. So really, you're now seeing guys, if you're in the top 20, 25 in the ITA rankings, you are probably playing at a top 250, 300 level. That's the level, right? So you get to really get a sense of where you are in the world without having to endure the cost and the travel.

and everything that goes into being a professional tennis player at the age of 18.

Torrey Hawkins (08:01.617)
which torpedoes your chances in a lot of ways to get there. And I'm going to piggyback on your point there Bobby because as you know we were out, spent a lot of time with you out there, obviously Sco out there, obviously Brian was just ahead of both of you two.

Not only, and I'm gonna use a really good comparison that I think was a guy named Kevin Anderson. Kevin was SCO's ITF year. They came out together in the same crew. Now mind you, that was a pretty good class. Top of that class was Monfese, Andy Murray, coming down from, I think, who else was in that same class with those guys? Jeremy Charity, and it was that whole class of guys that came through around that same time frame. Victor Troikey, and some guys that made it.

all top 30 top 40 in the world obviously Monfee made a top 10 and I say that to say Kevin Anderson wasn't quite as high as Sco was in the ITF during those years and he was planning on going to school and so as he went to Illinois and did some great things there after about year four Kevin came out and he played Sco three times. beat him the first time

lost to him in three the second time and got beat by Kevin in straights the third time. In my mind, I'm thinking, all right, I'm looking through the lens of 20 years ago, I'm looking at Skoll, but I'm also looking through the lens now of 20 years later to your exact point now. Kevin got more physically mature. He had a great weight program and fitness there at Illinois. He had great hitting partners and his other five, six, eight guys on the squad. And then Kevin goes on to be top

and finals of the US Open. So I say it to say, not only is that what happened, but also during that time, as far as players, some players not making it, you also had guys like John Isner, guys like Kevin Anderson, that did make it. That did make that next leap. You're always gonna have your one and done, and then like a guy like a James Blake, you're gonna have a guy like a Sam Quarry, who didn't go and was able to slap that big forehand and that big serve and makes things happen. But I say it to say, over the course of time,

Torrey Hawkins (10:09.683)
been a few more, know top 10, Kevin Anderson's a little bit of an exception, but there's been more of those college types that have gone through, aka the Camp Norris, aka Ciranda Lowe, Fernley, aka all the rest of the guys that we know who are currently doing the thing on the tour that have come through that, I feel it's the best pipeline, the best development mental.

a portal in sports is college tennis. And I think that's a big deal. And at this point to your point, B-Ray, it is proven. It's not even, it's not happenstance. It's not, the guy maybe wasn't good enough. No, no, you cannot go unless you go through the rite of passage of college tennis to get there, in my opinion. And I feel that that should almost start to be the whole pitch now. And I'll add a further one and go with a coach that's proven to develop, to keep you getting better.

There's a space that those next four years, the coach there has to be able to develop you with the you you are now, right? I'm a pretty good developer of talent from 12 to 18. I would even tell you between 12 and 15, I'm pretty good. 10 through 13, I might be one of the best ones out there. 14, 16, 17, well, not so much. There's not anymore. And then as you get closer to 18, 19, know.

All the things that entails, I'm out of my depth as of the last 20 or so years. I think what I'm saying is this, and college replaces what almost no academy can truly create, which is eight other guys of the same level, let alone traveling with them, getting them ready, and the change, which is what they need as well. So I really feel like college tennis doesn't get its full credit. College coaches like yourself don't get your full credit. And I really would like to see college tennis

tennis become more of put the real feather in the cap of what college tennis does for tennis, let alone for the players that have been able to get to top hundred. But everyone that all those 12s that got to 13 five all those inflated 12s that got to 13 five all those 11 eights that got that that just sniff 13 nine and that's development some coach continue to tweak and get their game to that point. And as I say, if if if I ta won't say it,

Torrey Hawkins (12:32.185)
you know almost it you know what i mean i i really take my hat off to every good college coach that's out there and i know as a junior development coach i'm looking for guys like you always to to take take it and run with it you know take the baton you know and continue to push from from from the from the hard laps that we've earned you know what i mean the juniors to now take it that next lap and take it home so hats off to you but and i want you maybe to speak to that a little bit because i think that's also part of the perception that junior

as parents have to kind of get their head around is that they're not finished, right? They're not done and that they have to they have another three or four years to really still fully mature and develop.

Alvin Owusu (13:13.051)
So Bobby, what's that conversation like when you get a kid who comes in, he's like, he's aware of your, obviously the history of the program, what you've done as a coach, what you've done as a player, how front and center is that conversation of like, okay, I'm gonna come to Auburn and I have aspirations of maybe getting to the next level. How do you have that conversation with that kid and then how do you even plan for the next three to four years with him on your roster?

Bobby Reynolds (13:39.515)
Yeah, I I think for us in particular, right, you know, I'm a big believer in a plan. And, you know, whether it be an American, whether it be an international guy, right, it's really mapping out, hey, you got four years now, maybe with the world change, five years, right. And this is how we're going to go about it. And, you know, for me, you know, I'm very much process oriented, right. It's not results right away. And I tell them up front, you know, I'm not afraid to make a change technically.

you know, in your technique. I'm not afraid to possibly say, all right, let's change some string, let's train some rackets, let's change some things in your game so that you can hopefully get to the point where you want to be. And if that means that you might have to take a step backwards and then you're going to take three steps forward in two years, I'm okay with that as a coach. I really am, right? Because I know I feel like if I do that with nine or 10 guys on our team,

We're going to have the team success. We're going to have the ranking success that everybody wants, whether it's me as a coach, whether it's the players, whether it's the administration, right? We're going to achieve that. I want to win championships. But it's not a win right now mindset for me as a coach. it's really, like I said, through the recruiting process, obviously trying to get as much data and watching them as much as possible at the beginning so that when they come, when they

commit to Auburn, I already have a good base of, okay, this is, whether it be 20, 30, 40 matches that I've seen to really have a good idea of what they need to do in order to progress. And then it's just breaking it down, right? I I take it by semester by semester. whether it be the first year we're took in two different segments and we have different bullet points that we're trying to hit in the first fall, we have some bullet points that we're trying to hit in the spring, right? And then you kind of map it out.

And it's hard, I'm the first to say. Some things you think might be a six week process that end up taking six months and some things that you think are gonna take six months take two weeks. So it's just always adjusting so that they know what the plan is, right? And whether it be a practice, right? I think we are very geared towards individual development.

Torrey Hawkins (15:44.4)
Yeah.

Bobby Reynolds (16:00.004)
I'm so fortunate to have two other coaches by my side, right? So we have three coaches for nine guys. So think about what those practices look like, right? We are literally working with two to three guys, you know, every practice, every individual is a coach and a player, you know, and it is, is cookie cut out so that they can develop, right? And it's, you know, hey, this is what we're working on. And then you throw in, right? In the fall, we're playing probably four to five to six tournaments.

You're throwing in all those matches. You're throwing in all those videos that we watched together into the data of development. So that when you get to the spring, I'll be honest, it's maybe a little less development because by the time you play on Friday, by the time you play on Sunday and you travel back, you have Monday off, you got Tuesday and Wednesday and you're traveling again on Thursday. So there's not as much time in those three to four months as full development. then, right.

Alvin Owusu (16:48.73)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (16:52.346)
Right.

But you're a lot though, right? So that, I think playing is development. Rob, 100%. At that point, yeah.

Bobby Reynolds (16:57.445)
Right, you're sharpening your iron because you're competing at that point. So you're making little tweaks and then you really use the summer and the fall again for your kind of off season where we're going to develop again. But you're still playing matches, but you're not as worried about, am I, I don't want to say you're not as result oriented at that point, but hopefully you're looking more long-term of that four to five years to get you.

to where you want to be to play professional tennis at 23, 24 years old.

Alvin Owusu (17:29.742)
So when you're talking about those benchmarks, that's a really interesting one. Like obviously tennis is not necessarily a stats-driven sport, so when you're talking about benchmarks, are you looking at like strength and conditioning types of benchmarks? Are you looking at pace on shots type of benchmarks? Like how are you actually tracking the change of the player besides what you can actually see in scores?

Bobby Reynolds (17:55.013)
I mean, I think obviously if you take an 18 year old and then you look at a 23 year old, obviously from a physical standpoint, everything they do off the court is just unbelievable. And you're going to see that success come. I think on the court, I think it depends on exactly what it is that we're trying to develop. It might be a serve. And we all know in tennis, serve is probably the last thing that players fully grasp and fully master.

Alvin Owusu (18:06.02)
Right.

Bobby Reynolds (18:24.644)
Right? I think it's not until you're probably 23, 24, 25 years old until you really master it, you know? And I'm the first to say I came into college with a pendulum, right? And a step up. And two years in, I started watching Andy Roddick and I said, man, why am I doing this pendulum, right? He's absolutely nuking the serve. I'm going to copy that guy and I'm just going to watch video and see what I can do. that led me to, OK, I'm playing with the pure control. I need more power on tour. I'm going to go to the...

Pure Drive and a half inch longer because I need more power. I'm going to figure it out. So I really think with some of these things, it's really just honing in on no different than I think as a junior developer from 10 to 13 years old. You can see what they need to achieve. It's just a little bit finer tuned, I think, as you go along. You're putting in a lot more work and getting a lot less, whether it be a recovery step, whether it be

Torrey Hawkins (19:14.283)
Yeah.

Bobby Reynolds (19:21.377)
you know, your first step out of the corner, whether it be, you know, changing a little bit of the technique of the serve, maybe it'd be, you know, I think even more so as you age. And in college, what I found is if they're technically sound, they can make some huge improvements of just learning who they are as a tennis player and how they are going to be successful, right? And really kind of breaking down

Alvin Owusu (19:42.564)
Yeah.

Bobby Reynolds (19:50.026)
you as a player, this is how you're going to be successful watching video and then going back and then trying to put in patterns, trying to put in game plans so that you don't have to think about it. The ball comes here. I know where I'm going because this is what's going to make me successful type of development.

Alvin Owusu (20:08.729)
Gotcha, just kind of last thing here on that particular, you know, that path you mentioned in your own process, like having to change rackets, going with a, you from the control base Babylon racket, from the red bab to the blue bab, Add a half inch there, that's a pretty big change. From an equipment standpoint, I know a lot of our listeners like to get a little nerdy about this kind of stuff. When you typically get someone out of juniors, in your 10 years of experiences at the helm there,

What are the kind of equipment changes that you typically see are most, that happen most frequently?

Bobby Reynolds (20:45.395)
the biggest bang for your buck, right, is using a frame. I don't care if it's Babelot, whether it's Head, whether it's Yonex, Wilson, that can give you the most amount of power with the least amount of work. I mean, period. Whether it's from the racket, whether it's from the string, whether it's from the string tension, whether it's from if you're able to add a little bit of weight, right, and understand what weight does to the racket. But basically trying to make it as easy as possible.

to have the most penetration and power coming off your strokes. So, you know, I'm big, obviously, I always play Babylon and I'm the first to say, and my guys know, right? I was not a clean ball striker, not at all. So you play with a Babylon because it's got a huge sweet spot, you know? I wish I was six foot five, like, or six foot, you know, like saffon and could play with a thin, you know, blade and just hit it purely in the middle of the strings every single time because it feels the best. But if you can't,

Torrey Hawkins (21:31.589)
Very good, very good.

Bobby Reynolds (21:45.206)
Right? It's figuring out, how can I use some of the technology and equipment to help me become a better tennis player? And then you try to harness all the power and control what's being given to you. I think is a far better approach than, you know, playing with something that has no power and really trying to just absolutely swing from your hips at all times.

Alvin Owusu (22:06.677)
That's very good timing. I just recently switched from Babylon with about, I don't know, almost 20 years with the stick and went over to a head racket. So, pray for me with this smaller sweet smile. my goodness, don't get me started.

Torrey Hawkins (22:17.423)
You

Bobby Reynolds (22:18.434)
I bet you feel so good when you hit it in the middle though.

Torrey Hawkins (22:23.737)
and you're not playing against Saffron. So I think you'll be okay.

Alvin Owusu (22:27.105)
Yeah, I'll be all right. I'll be all right. I'll be all right. Is it time to have the NIL conversation?

Torrey Hawkins (22:32.945)
Before we go down that path, gotta ask a couple things. Bobby, number one, as one of your coaches back in the day, I saw your trajectory quite well and obviously I was front row seat in it. I always felt and for those listeners and viewers that are hearing this, watching this, Bobby went from a top 10 in the country junior who literally, and I tell this story from time to time,

who literally got blitzkrieg by Phillip Stolt in the US Open Junior. You know what I mean? I think Phillip got you pretty good. I he was nine in the country. You were 10 in the country and it made it seem like he was knocking the door on top four and you were knocking the door on 54. You know what I mean? At that match.

you went on to play at Vandy, which was not the top SEC school at the time. Obviously it was one of the better academic institutions, but like Vandy tends to be, it wasn't Georgia, it wasn't Florida, wasn't, I forget who the top school was back in those days, SEC, but it wasn't Vandy yet. And I say that to say you went on to play high.

on a quote unquote lower ranked SEC team and I know we talk about it, Drew and I talk about it, how tough that adjustment was for you, you know, and he used the term and I agree with him, you got your teeth kicked in, he said the first year or so. Year two you found your legs, year three you started really, I'm gonna use the term,

Handling the midichlorians a little better, you know what I mean? And before you know it, you're one of the top three or four guys in college and you got the finals of NCAAs. That was a phenomenal track of improvement, of development yourself. And dare I say, looking through my lens, had you have not gone in playing...

Torrey Hawkins (24:31.939)
high on a lower team you wouldn't have played this high right if you had played stolt by by you know by comparison with illinois and played four right phenomenal team right rajiv i think played three on that team you know on that same squad delhi played you know played one the team was stacked i mean it was absolutely stacked and so to some degree not that not that raj did any worse right rajiv ran but you know a few a few grand slams to his credit now in doves clearly he's he benefited from the same thing but i say it to say

If someone had just taken that snapshot in time of you at, you know, nine, 10, US Open Junior, and then taken the next snapshot three years later in college, and then another three years after that on the tour where you're now, you know, knocking them on top 50, that's a huge, huge upside. If you would speak to...

what those different benchmarks, right? Because we keep talking about 18 going into college. How about going through college and then leaving college with a chance to play a little bit more in the overview, obviously, but speak to that a little bit of what you saw, maybe a few things that benefited you through that, and of course, what you think powered you through and helped you, obviously, ultimately to reach a 50 or so in the world coming from college. Because I think that isn't always spoke to enough.

And it kind of parents as well as players get that muddled as to why they're going to a certain school in the first place often in my opinion often to their detriment.

Bobby Reynolds (26:03.998)
Yeah, you know, that's a great question, Th. And I think, you know, first and foremost, I had some great guidance and leadership, you know, between you, between D. Drew, between my parents, to really help me, right, as a 17, 18 year old, to see through some of the things that maybe I thought was important at the time, right, and really break it down and help me

figure it out, right? And I'll say this, right? I think I still remember vividly, again, man, I'm 43. So what is that? Like 25 years ago, I sitting outside with David Drew on his back porch and he cooked steak dinner and I'd taken all my recruiting trips. And again, I went and visited Texas, Illinois, Notre Dame, Virginia, Georgia, Vandy, right? Some great schools.

And man, mean, everyone has something else, something different to offer. Right. I mean, and you go to this one, you're like, I love this place. And you go to this one and man, this place. Great. You know, you know, David knew me right, you know, from such a young age at 11 and and to to really be able to see through that. I think he gave me the greatest piece of advice. He made me put down on a piece of paper my priorities. Why am I going to college? Right. And literally list everything. And I had to then go

After that, you know, they came down to two schools. One school matched up and I had to put a check mark often to everyone. And if there were a couple of priorities on there that I forgot, he would put it down, right? And thought about, what about if you get hurt? Are you going to want to stay at the school? Right? Some of those types of things that maybe we wouldn't even think about. And it was eye-opening to see, right? Everything led to Vanderbilt, right? You know, and...

Torrey Hawkins (27:33.829)
what school matched up to those priorities.

Bobby Reynolds (27:58.769)
And to be honest with you, the other school was Illinois. And we'll get to that at some point. But those were the two schools that it came down to in the end. And really, I was going to school. I was going to school for an education. I was going to school to play tennis. I was going to a school that was kind of close to home. So those are some of the priorities that were important to me. And as you said, yeah, I mean...

I think fortunately I can look back. I went to Vanderbilt and at that point they were the worst in the SEC. We were probably 100 in the country. But what was neat was it was a coach that played out on tour in Ken Flack. There were five freshmen that were going to go into Vanderbilt at the same time and kind of build the program. So there was a lot of external factors that kind of also weighed into that decision. And yeah, you know, I went in my freshman year and played two.

Right? Like somebody had to play two and I guess fortunately I was the one. But I, and I still, I tell this to recruits. I tell this to the guys on the team. My first year I went two and nine in the SEC at number two. Two and nine. mean like, I mean just getting absolutely beaten to shreds. And then, you know, again, and I don't think it fazed me because I didn't have any aspirations at that point to play professional tennis. Nobody talked about professional tennis. So it was really just,

All right, well, I got to figure out how am going to survive the next match? How am I going to get better? Right? All right, man, I got beaten in again, you know, and it was just kind of that process. And, know, I went home after that summer and, you know, maybe I shouldn't say this out loud to the viewers. I probably didn't play as much tennis as I probably should have. But like, you know, it took a toll on me. Right. You play all these junior tennis and, you know, everything is tennis. And then you go into college and I just got beaten to shreds that, you know, I took a step back for about a month or so. And then

to figure out, man, you know, and then got back, right? And I love this game. And that's why I'm doing this because I love to play tennis. And my sophomore year, again, not the best results. I think I went six and five in the SEC at one, my sophomore year. You know, by no means would anybody look at those two years and be like, man, this guy's going to be top 100 of the world, you know? But I really think that was my aha moment at the end of that sophomore year. And I got picked to be part of

Torrey Hawkins (30:08.283)
Yeah.

Bobby Reynolds (30:16.914)
the USDA professional college tour, know, so I got some opportunities to play some professional events and, you know, didn't have a lot of great success. But really, it was kind of that whole journey that helped me realize, hey, this is how you have to be successful if you want to win these matches for your team, right? And that was what drove me at that point was like, you know, like, yeah, I want to win this for myself, but even more than that.

Torrey Hawkins (30:20.497)
system team.

Bobby Reynolds (30:43.973)
Man, I got to get one point for my team, right? We got to get to four. So I don't care how I got to do it. You got to figure out. And then it just, it really dumbed down tennis for me, right? It taught me, hey, you know, your backhand's pretty good. Just go backhand cross court. Don't ever go backhand down the line. Take your forehand, go mostly inside out. Use some of your athleticism in your fight to just make a lot of balls. And then you start to win and you start to realize like,

It's not that hard, right? I'm just going to cut down on unforced errors. I'm just going to be really, really tough and see if this guy gives me some free points. And then, you know, what kind of starts to snowball after that is you kind of win that locker room, right? You win that power of like, man, they don't want to play against you because you're going to make some balls. And all of a sudden, you're up 2-0 in the first set before you even walk out on the court. You know, so it just makes life a little bit easier. And I think that is was kind of the natural progression through college.

Torrey Hawkins (31:15.653)
Make it hard. Yeah.

Bobby Reynolds (31:42.919)
But then really the same thing on tour, right? You start to kind of fill out those levels, whether it's the futures and the challenges. And then I'll be honest with you, right? You get to the tour level, you get to close to 50 in the world, you better have something, right? That locker room power is not gonna get you 2-0 the first set. But really, like I said, it was a whole process. It was everything that I was able to kind of just kind of learn. And there was, like I said, there was no timeline. There was no, I got to do this yesterday, no.

You know, it's just figuring it out, figuring it out, growing, growing, developing. And like I said, I had a great coach in college in Ken Flack that fostered that, you know, that made it fun, made, you know, just developing and being out on the court fun, which ultimately led to winning, which is what everybody wants is fun.

Torrey Hawkins (32:31.482)
Thanks.

Alvin Owusu (32:31.52)
And I'll give you some credit though, you mentioned your record in your first two years for our audience who's not very familiar with college tennis. The SEC is no joke and of those 15 players I named or I didn't name them but called out earlier who have gone through college tennis to top 100, nine of those 15 came from the SEC. So it is, if you're playing top three at an SEC school, you might take your lickens but it more or less works out.

on the back end is definitely a well-treaded path to that next level. Just want to piggyback.

Torrey Hawkins (33:05.915)
Shout out, shout out at a moment of silence from my main man, Ken Flack. One of the best to ever done it, man. I miss him. mean, I worked with his brother Doug for a long time on the fitness side and worked with his kids and just, I just, yeah. How silky smooth were Ken Flack's returns? Wow, this is, this is, feel like there was something serious.

Bobby Reynolds (33:25.648)
returns. His backhand return was something I've never seen before. Like with a frying pan, he would just put it on an absolute dime.

Torrey Hawkins (33:35.506)
God, had the best. Didn't flinch. Didn't matter how big you hit it. He got lower to the ground and just rifled. He would come forward on your 135. Like, is that all you got? I mean, it was stupid how good. Probably the only backhand return I saw that was better was when you and Skull played Bjorkman and Mierny.

at the open. Yorkman had a sick backhand return. mean, but we're talking about the highest of the high level. mean, that, mean, you don't get that many grand sams in the world and not have a good backhand return on the ad side. But anyway, just, I just had to put that out there when you mentioned Ken, I'm like, God, Ken Flack.

Bobby Reynolds (34:05.862)
Yep. On the outside.

Alvin Owusu (34:11.896)
No, that's helpful though because my question was about the levels, right? You mentioned the levels like going from college to futures, futures to top 100, top 100 to 50, and then 50 on end is a whole different ball game. If you could summarize maybe at those different jumps of levels, like what separates players, like good college players from those guys who are doing it on the futures and doing it on the futures to cracking the tour and then moving into 150 and so on and so forth.

Bobby Reynolds (34:39.993)
Yeah, I mean, think now, obviously, as the game progresses, right, if you think back 20 years, you know, it's not always about just hitting the tennis ball. You know, I tell these guys, it really isn't. And I think that's some of the things that I learned through Ken, right? Obviously, he developed and helped out so much with the X's and O's and technically and everything from the tennis side. But he shares so many life experiences that he had on tour.

with us as a team. And I think that impact was massive. Because there's a lot of things that people don't think about, right? I mean, you want to play tennis out on tour as a career, you're looking at 35 to 40 weeks on the road. You know, unless you're really one of the top 20 guys in the world that only get to have to play this select few tournaments, right? It's a tough life.

Right? You're in the hotel a lot. You're in the airport a lot. You know, you're on the road a lot. You're away from family and friends and, you know, significant others and just everything. And you're devoting your life to the game of tennis. And that is not always easy. You know, you have to love what you do first and foremost. So I think that's some of the greatest things that he shared, you know, and then...

you as you progress, right, you start to realize, as I said, you either sink or swim. So you can either in college, on the futures, on the challenger tour, on the pro tour, right? It doesn't matter. It's just, you know, each little kind of foundation. You have to figure out what's going to make you successful and what's not making you successful, right? And then altering and developing in those areas where you're either being, like I said, fine tuning your weapons,

and making adjustments in your weaknesses across the board. And you always have to be astute to that and always be looking to want to get better and figure out how to get better with the X's and O's and you as an individual. But ultimately, I think the biggest thing that really at the end of the day, my brother-in-law really beat into me from the beginning when I left college to go out on tour. He said,

Bobby Reynolds (37:01.568)
yes, this is a sport and this is what you love, but it's a job, right? And you have to put everything you have as into basically a sole proprietor, you know, job. And if you're not doing that, then you might as well just hang it up. And that's, think, is the hardest thing, you know, is people don't can differentiate between, this is tennis and this is my job. And if you can put it together and

you know, now all of a sudden you're gonna have some pretty good success.

Alvin Owusu (37:33.398)
Yeah, and of those players that I mentioned that I haven't mentioned their names yet, but that did come through the SEC. Most of them you've coached against most of them. Ben Shelton, Kim Norrie was probably pretty early. I'm not sure if TCU was in the SEC at the time. Nuneer Borges, Sarundalo, Rundekanesh, Vachero, Diallo, Ethan Quinn. All those guys went from college to eventually top 100. Some of them are in,

Top 30, top 10 for Ben. When you look back to coaching against them, did you kind of see it at the time?

Bobby Reynolds (38:12.238)
Yeah, so some of those guys were a little bit earlier on for me, obviously. know, Kim Norrie was at TCU when I was an assistant Oklahoma, so I saw him a little bit. You know, Renderneck, he was one year at A I'll tell you definitely, you know, whether it be Shelton, whether it be, I saw Diallo up in Canada two years before he was being recruited and you saw that guy and you're like, whoa, if that guy can make, at that point, I mean,

Alvin Owusu (38:14.838)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (38:34.555)
Nah.

Bobby Reynolds (38:38.741)
no disrespect to him. was probably only making two to three balls in the court, you know, from the ground at that point. But everything else was like, man, he's got something else. If it starts clicking, like that guy's going to be really, really, really good.

Torrey Hawkins (38:50.607)
He's only making five now and he's still doing good. You know what mean? I mean, the guy is tagging him. When he brings it down, I still think he has got some of the best upside to your point. He's he's so long and so wiry. I mean, I think he's still figuring out his limbs. I mean, I really do. It's funny you mention that. We don't know how good Diallo can be yet. I mean, he hadn't figured it out yet. He probably hadn't stopped growing yet. You know what I mean?

Bobby Reynolds (39:16.729)
Right. And I think at that age, know, when you're looking at 18 to 22 year old guys, know, like you said, Torrey is like, you know, they're still trying to figure out their body. They're still trying to figure out their balance point. They're still trying to figure out some of these things that like, but you know, when you're talking about, I think as any coach or, you know, person that's watched a lot of tennis, right? Obviously, if you're seeing bigger guys that have great technique on their serve, obviously forehands that can be offensive, that can move well.

those are some great foundations to make a player long-term.

Alvin Owusu (39:53.399)
Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, that's that's fair. That's fair.

Bobby Reynolds (39:56.397)
I was gonna say, think all those guys that you mentioned right there all have a massive serve and a massive forehand.

Alvin Owusu (40:01.995)
That's true. I, you speaking of forehands, the, Ethan Quinn forehand, it's, starting to turn into like a little bit of lore I've had. We've had, we have people in this podcast, multiple people in this podcast actually talk about that forehand and it's, and how pure it is and how big it is. And you've, you've seen it up close in person and coached against it. so that kind of speaks directly to it. And here he is. Like he's starting to get his footing and in climbing his way up, he's probably touching 60 in the world right now. maybe even approaching 50. So,

Yeah, SEC's tennis, don't sleep on it. It's the factory. It's the factory.

Torrey Hawkins (40:34.225)
sleep. But don't sleep too, no doubt.

Bobby Reynolds (40:38.425)
It's only getting tougher every single year, think. Every single year, you just look at the gauntlet of 15 teams. And I think this year we had 13 teams in the tournament, in the top 35. So it's just.

Alvin Owusu (40:48.726)
Oof.

Torrey Hawkins (40:52.069)
And that's after you all play each other.

Alvin Owusu (40:54.123)
Yeah

Bobby Reynolds (40:55.117)
Yeah, as a way to just absolutely put on the gloves and just beat each other up.

Alvin Owusu (40:59.797)
That is, that's...

Torrey Hawkins (41:00.177)
We'd all be high and we didn't play each other.

Bobby Reynolds (41:00.825)
But you know what, credit to Virginia. They got through and they won the NCAA championship. So yeah, too good for them.

Torrey Hawkins (41:05.233)
Right, right, by dodging all you guys.

Alvin Owusu (41:09.906)
So they're like, conference realignment. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're good, we're good up here in the ACC, the from Atlantic, Atlantic Pacific Coast Conference, whatever you wanna call it. I'm really, I'm really interested, okay, now we're gonna shift this program into the money side of things. I'm gonna start kinda big and we'll see where we go. NIL, how has it impacted the way you go about doing your job as a head coach?

Torrey Hawkins (41:13.611)
We'll get moving right here.

Alvin Owusu (41:38.461)
over the last, I'm not even gonna say last 10 years, let's just get down the last three years.

Bobby Reynolds (41:45.748)
I'd be lying if I said I got into this and thought I'd be a fundraiser slash negotiator, know, some of those things, you know. But it is, you know, it's part of all sports, all college sports right now. And, you know, I think the thinking behind it, at least from a tennis standpoint, right? I think there's still a lot of

The players that are coming and having conversations, whether it be recruits, whether it be through the portal, just when you're having a lot, know, current guys on your team, it's coming from a greater good. You know, I will say that, right? These guys want to play professional tennis. And this is, and a lot of the conversations are, this is the means to allowing them to continue their dream.

So I wouldn't say it's shifted. You know, obviously 10 years ago they're coming into college tennis because they see it as a way for them to play professional tennis and the universities with all the resources can help them develop to hopefully give them the best chance to succeed. It's just another piece of the pie that's being thrown in in that whole equation of them trying to ultimately at the end play professional tennis.

Alvin Owusu (43:09.814)
which is no different than, I guess it's becoming more and more in the spotlight, right? It's no different than football. It's no different than basketball. People come to college to prepare themselves to go to the next level, and as this path is becoming more more viable on the tennis side, okay, more and more people wanna do it. So that makes total sense. What about on the recruiting side? How has that conversation changed?

Bobby Reynolds (43:33.089)
Yeah, I mean, it's just part of the question, right? I mean, I think before it was a lot of like scholarship, right? was, scholarship was a big one, maybe kind of where you are, I'm saying like geographically, right? Some guys want to play indoors, some guys want to play outdoors, right? The conference was kind of a big piece. Maybe facilities was a big piece. Resources as far as, you know, whether it be coaches and ancillary support staff was a piece.

And now, NIL is just another piece of the conversation that you have with all recruits. So, again, some, you know, as I spoke back to me 20 years ago, have it higher on the priority list. Some have it lower on the priority list as far as what they are looking for when they are ultimately choosing which destination in college they're going to choose in the end. And it's just kind of sifting out, hey, what are your priorities?

here are our priorities, here's what we're looking for in recruits coming in and how we want to build our program and continue to progress. And then do our priorities align, right? And at the end of the day, you know, we have a lot of conversations, you know, I think I would love to see our success rate because it probably is not great for how many people we talk to as a college coach just in general, you know, it's kind of like going out and, you know, whether you fundraise or, you know, you're trying to

build a portfolio for financial advising, right? You're going to get told no a lot of times. So that's okay, right? It's not that we become numb, right? We have the guys who we really love and we pour into and you spend a lot of time and you want them to be a part. But at the end of the day, I always look back and I say this, right? And I'm very upfront and honest with everybody I speak with. At the end of the day, if their priorities and our priorities don't align,

and we go down that partnership, it's never gonna end successfully. So we have to make sure that both priorities align so that we have a great four to five year relationship. And if that's the case, then you're gonna get the best out of what you're looking for. And we're also gonna be fulfilled and get the best out what, you know, whether it's the coaches, the university, everything we're looking for as a program.

Torrey Hawkins (45:51.558)
Yeah. Bobby, you got a tough one here. Dabble Sweeney has been one of the more vocal coaches against the, you know, NIL, right? You can't be on that end, obviously, in today's day and age because of how viable an option it is. At the same time, you can't be a used car salesman, right? You gotta be somewhere in between. How does a D1 SEC program

right, at a public school compete with a private school that may have deeper coffers, that may have better, let's just say better access to funding, right? How do those schools, and it's bigger than tennis, how do they compete, I'll use a Duke, let's just say, versus an Auburn.

Duke is no powerhouse in football, obviously, as Auburn has been. And so there's money coming in from that. There's money coming in from ACC, obviously. And I there's money coming in, obviously, ACC for Duke, whether they have a good football team or not. How do the two compete? And we're not talking, again, just tennis. We're men's golf. We're talking baseball. We're talking all the other sports, the extra sports. that Title IX has unfortunately hamstrung a lot of men's programs. How do they compete?

Give the viewer, give myself an alvin just in a sense how and where does the money true up if at all.

Bobby Reynolds (47:31.667)
Yeah, don't think it ever chews up, to be honest with you. To be honest.

Alvin Owusu (47:33.141)
Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (47:34.129)
Sure. And are we talking about a factor of 10? Are we talking about a factor of 6?

Bobby Reynolds (47:38.133)
Yeah, but I would say even if you, I think if you look in totality over the last 50, 60, whatever years of college athletics, I don't think it's ever been a true fair playing field, right? Whether it be certain states have lottery, right? So now all of a sudden they can get in-state guys at a lower percentage for scholarship. Some schools have international agreements with different countries so they can get guys from international to come in-state.

Torrey Hawkins (47:49.039)
right.

Torrey Hawkins (48:07.622)
Sure, sure.

Bobby Reynolds (48:07.814)
some schools have, hey, if you have above a 3.0 GPA and you're transferring in, you become a full scholarship academic, right? So I think you can go across just the landscape of college athletics forever, and it's never been a true level playing field. So, yeah. So, I mean, like when people say,

Torrey Hawkins (48:24.241)
That's good.

That's myth, isn't it? The myth at this level, right?

Bobby Reynolds (48:33.78)
you know, how is this school so much better? You know, how they've always been so good? Well, like if you really want to take a deep dive, like I can tell you a lot of the reason why, right? I mean, like, if we go back and, you know, college tenants only got four and a half scholarships and some schools were operating on, you know, eight to nine because their school and their state gave them that advantage and everybody else was at four and a half. Well, I can tell you why that coach was really, really good, right? It's not hard. So,

Torrey Hawkins (48:59.825)
100%. He had literally twice the ships.

Bobby Reynolds (49:03.718)
It, yeah. So now, again, like I said, it's just another piece. It's just another piece of the pie of you have, you whether it be, you know, private universities that maybe have a little bit more financial donors that are coming in from a higher economic, you know, status or your one-offs of different schools in different sports where you just have a donor that has a lot of money that loves that sport.

Torrey Hawkins (49:25.307)
Yeah.

Bobby Reynolds (49:33.256)
right? And now all of a sudden they are able to have power, they're able to have a say, they're able to change the landscape for the university and the sport that they love. And that's, think, you throw all of that into a mixing bowl and mix it all up. And that's why you have different sports and different programs across the country that all of a sudden, maybe weren't good 20 years ago, but all of a sudden they're just blowing up. And people are like, well,

What happens? Well, that's...

Torrey Hawkins (50:04.433)
We saw that with Oregon and football with Phil Knight, didn't we? We saw that with other programs across the country. Yeah, you're exactly right. That's a great point. Speaking of programs, though, that have the other side. Arkansas was in the news last few weeks about losing their program. And again, we're talking about an SEC school here. I'm sure you have some insight on it. For what we are talking about now, how doesn't Arkansas lose its program, if you can give me the 30 second.

Alvin Owusu (50:33.269)
But they got it back. But they got it back, right? They got it back last week.

Bobby Reynolds (50:34.611)
and get it back.

Torrey Hawkins (50:35.896)
The fun thing is that they went to the office and they got the right people for them.

Bobby Reynolds (50:39.026)
Yeah, I think they raised like five and a half or six million dollars to get back. You know, that's a great question. I really think, you know, and if you ask me from a college coaching standpoint and just college athletics, we really do need some help from the government. We really do. Right. In order to really save college athletics as we know, as Americans know. Right.

You talk about college athletics internationally and people's eyes light up, right? Because they're like, my gosh, your system is so great, right? They don't have that opportunity. I don't care where you go. You go to England, you go to Europe, you go anywhere, you go Germany, right? You're either going academics or you're gonna try and go play sport. That's it. It is a why in the road. There is no coming back together. And that's one of the greatest things about...

college athletics in the US is that you have the opportunities to do both, right? You don't have to choose, I want to go the academic route or I want to go the sport route. And, you know, yeah, there needs to be some help in order to keep that viable for the foreseeable future. Because again, just with dollars and cents and the way, whether it be NIL, whether it be revenue share, whether it be just everything.

It's not an endless, there's no money tree out there that every school can go pick from. There just isn't. It's getting to the point where, right, you're having to crunch, you're having to figure out, well, we got to be successful, we got to continue to generate money, right, which is our generating sports, and at what cost, you know? And I don't envy the presidents and the 80s that are sitting in these rooms trying to figure out what do we do, right? Because there's not a lot of option. You either cut sports,

Torrey Hawkins (52:34.523)
We gotta cut something, right?

Bobby Reynolds (52:36.304)
Right. You're cutting personnel, right? You're cutting something. You're not, there's no way to really go out and say, well, we'll just generate another 50 or a hundred million dollars to keep everything going. Like, it's just not possible.

Torrey Hawkins (52:50.489)
hard work. Yeah, it's hard. It's a finite number of resources, a finite and every team, every team is looking for more, be it NIL, be it a new stadium, be it flights and budgets. And now with these bigger, as you call it, as we said earlier, the realignment of some of these conferences, that now the Southeastern Conference and the Atlantic Coast Conference are not just in the Southeast.

Bobby Reynolds (53:17.82)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (53:18.373)
than the Atlantic Coast. now even that flight, now you've got several cross-country flights, know, plural, times so many players, plural, times programs, plural. even the travel is in itself, you know, a huge expense in itself. So, no, you're absolutely right. There needs to be a way to...

do that because it can't always be an ROI to the school because every team doesn't generate that kind of revenue. Tennis sits at a tough intersection, right? It sits at a tough intersection of, in my opinion, I'm gonna say of not huge demand, right? And not huge...

visibility right and and while you think it's a quote-unquote one of the cheaper sports it still requires you know million multi-million dollar facilities and overhead and not to mention budget now you add in IL on top of that it's not it's a lot it's more expensive than you think compared to the you know non-rev sports at the same time

So you have that high, that low demand-ish with the high overhead cost. you're right, it gets tricky. It gets very tricky.

Alvin Owusu (54:33.557)
So, but then you go from that and you end up with the Arkansas scenario and then you're, you, know, when that happened, I think a lot of people started looking at other programs, not necessarily just D one programs, like division two programs are getting cut left and right. Like, I think like there were 20 of them within the two week span of Arkansas losing their program. And you go with all that you just said, Th how did the rest of the programs survive? Because no tennis program makes money and they all, like all the big ones.

Torrey Hawkins (54:59.825)
Thanks for watching.

Alvin Owusu (55:03.647)
like in the major conferences, all have the same, like, they all cost the same amount of money. So how do we make it through this? Like, how do we get through this?

Torrey Hawkins (55:12.953)
and make it sustainable.

Bobby Reynolds (55:17.393)
You know, I think as a whole, whether in each program, each facility has the ability to do, I think it's very hard. I don't know how much watch the ESPN and NCA as you guys watch. think just putting it on TV, I don't know if that's the correct answer at the end of the day. I think it's very hard to watch, you know, six course at the same time.

Alvin Owusu (55:41.951)
Yeah, yeah

Bobby Reynolds (55:43.665)
I I don't know your feeling, but again, maybe if you're able to choose and pick which court you want, okay, that gives a better possibility. So you get to watch the person that you want and kind of pick and choose. But I think what we really need to do better as a whole is make it an event at the end of the day.

Bobby Reynolds (56:10.331)
think as college coaches, we are.

wearing two different hats. And I'm going to go deep. I'm going to give you some insight, right? I think we're wearing two different hats at the time, right? We're wearing one hat that says, you know, hey, this is what's best for the development of players and we're going to make you pro and anything to get the recruit to come in. And then we're wearing the hat of what's best for college tennis. I think if you ask the average fan that comes and watches college tennis, they love the dual match.

There's nothing greater than the dual match, right? The environment of, you know, whether it be Auburn, Auburn's playing Alabama. They don't care who's out on the court. They don't care if we have six 14 UTRs or we have six 12 UTRs. At the end of the day, the Auburn fan want to make sure that Auburn beats Alabama. That's it. Period. There's not. mean, it's pretty easy. Right. And I think we can look across all of sports in any university. And that is the ultimate goal.

Torrey Hawkins (57:01.455)
You better.

Bobby Reynolds (57:13.252)
Where, so right now I just think we are, as college tennis, we're trying to do too many things, right? We're trying to have the fall season and then we're trying to have the NCAA championship and we're moving it from the spring to the fall so that we can have singles and doubles champions, right? And I know that's important in history, but at the end of the day, we have to figure out as an organization, if we are gonna start, and these are some, I never would have thought being an SEC coach, right? I mean, I would have thought, man,

SEC is probably insulated and it's the last to go, Big Ten last to go. You know, so when I saw Arkansas a couple weeks ago, I was like, whoa, we got to really look back and all of us get in a room together and figure out, hey, how are we going to sustain this for the next 20 to 30 to 40 years? You know, let's stop thinking about how am going to beat you and how am going to beat you out of this recruit and, you know, this is better for me or my program and start thinking about how

Alvin Owusu (57:45.653)
All right.

Torrey Hawkins (57:52.55)
Yeah.

Bobby Reynolds (58:12.343)
are we going to win at the end of the day? And I think it is. I think it is the dual match, right? And getting fans out there and making it an event and trying to get at, you know, five o'clock on an afternoon where you're having hors d'oeuvres and cocktails and making it so people in the community want to come out, right? We are fighting against some unbelievable sports, whether it be basketball, baseball, football.

softball, right? Like soccer, like a lot of sports, we're all competing against each other in the calendar. So finding times and periods within the entire year that we can, as you said, TH, be visible, right? Be visible in our community, be visible to whatever. And I said that, right? That means that I have to play Alabama on a Tuesday night and ESPN would pick it up instead of

you know, showing axe throwing or whatever it is, bocce balls, cornhole, right? And they'll pick up Auburn versus Alabama, Ben Spence. Yeah. And then we need to plan on a Tuesday night to make it more visible. And we have to get away from the status quo and this is what we've been doing and into, hey, this is how we're going to make it sustainable.

Torrey Hawkins (59:12.049)
Thank you very much.

Torrey Hawkins (59:21.659)
That's right.

Bobby Reynolds (59:34.113)
for our sport for as long as we can whether it be division one two three NAIA JUCO all the above right because once they start to go and I think THU said this right Arkansas fell and that was kind of like a big hammer and I really do think ADs were like well if Arkansas can do it then sure we're not as big as Arkansas so let's get rid of it let's now's our time

Torrey Hawkins (59:56.402)
That's exact. That was the death knell to me was an SEC school and a former good program in the SEC.

Bobby Reynolds (01:00:04.143)
They made the tournament this year, they're 35 in the country. I mean...

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:06.769)
I like their 105. This is a good school with a good history. that was my issue. was like KU, you know, one of my favorite schools being from Kansas, hasn't had their program in a long time.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:06.792)
You

Bobby Reynolds (01:00:09.763)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:21.577)
and the men's program anyway. And it came off the heels of a really good season. know, that Carlos Fleming, was with IMG for many, many years, signed with the Williams sisters and Sharapova. Mike Wolf, who coached a ton of good players, you know, my boy with the forehand grip.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:45.054)
Currier? No. Sock, okay.

Bobby Reynolds (01:00:45.519)
That's stock.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:46.701)
Jack sock coach sock back today. I mean they were all on this team. I mean they wasn't like this was a bad team. They were I want to say they got quarters or semis of NCAAs at that time and they got cut the next year and that was more of a title nine thing. But I said to say you know these are this is it's you know KU is not one of the you know it's not one of the lesser healed schools. I mean this school is it's been a part of the college sport diaspora for a long time and that's my point when I heard Arkansas I'm like I could hear.

it was you know, Central's, Central Arkansas State or something like that. are, that's tough. They probably, definitely got tough. I'm just saying, but this is Arkansas we're talking about. This is Razorbacks. I mean, this is come on now. And I think that was my issue was that what do we, what will college tennis, for that matter, college sports, because let's face it, Alvin, you mentioned this a bunch of times, it's entertainment, isn't it? We are now having to consume this and look at through the lens of an entertainment through a something that's to be consumed. How does

Bobby Reynolds (01:01:23.245)
Thank

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:46.468)
does tennis, other sports, but specifically tennis.

raise its entertainment value? How does it raise its relevance? Impact to the community, it goes down the same street. Is it consumable? Is it convenient-ish? Is it sticky? Are people wanting to come to the matches and why? And how can we get that more to happen? And you've spoken a lot of that. I think the one piece that you may not know now, that I'd love an answer to now or down the road,

is what have you gotten right and then what can we double down on and do a bit more. You mentioned the dual, which is great. What else have we gotten right? What else is working, right? That we can now say, okay, let's do a little more of this. Let's compound that a little bit if we can.

Bobby Reynolds (01:02:41.942)
Yeah, I mean, so I think if you gave me the opportunity to change college tennis, think, as I said, I think it is the call. I think it is the dual match, right? I would love, right? And this is a crazy thought, right? Is to kind of make it into three different segments. You have the fall season. And again, I don't know how many matches, right? But you play

You play the fall as a dual match, right? So we have 25 dates. We're allowed to use 25 dates to either play dual matches or you're allowed to play fall. In the fall, you're allowed to play tournaments, right? And each tournament counts as a date. So competitive dates across the entire year. I think that would be unbelievable if you kind of did it.

Alvin Owusu (01:03:20.148)
25 competitive dates. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bobby Reynolds (01:03:28.493)
mirroring kind of like a track, right? Where they have an outdoor, they have an indoor season, right? If in the fall, we play so many matches that were outdoors, right? And it would give all those Big Ten schools that historically always play indoors up until about February, right? Ohio State, love them to death, man. They have a great team every single year, but they can't win a national championship because they play indoors literally the entire year and then they have to go outdoors for two weeks and, right? It's tough, right? So, you know,

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:51.057)
That's for you. Right. Right.

Bobby Reynolds (01:03:58.061)
Could we segment it out where you had maybe six matches in the fall that are all outdoors? Doesn't matter where you play, right? It's gonna get a lot of cross competition, whether it be Big 10s coming down to the south, us going up, because we're gonna play outdoors. Then you play an indoor season, right? And same thing, right? It doesn't matter. These month or however many matches have to be indoors, that's gonna get a lot of more matches for us to, same thing, down in the south to go play.

whether it be the Ivies, the Big 10s, know, other people indoors. And then you come back and you finish out kind of with your conference matches. Now all of sudden, right, you have distinct periods in your calendar where you're split, where you're playing dual matches. And like I said, to the fan, that's what they want. They don't understand these fall tournaments that we go to. Why are you guys going to these fall tournaments and playing individual? And what does that count for?

You're trying to explain to them and like then on top of that, it's like, you know, no offense, you know, a match finishes and it's four one. Why are we still playing two other matches? The match is over. You know, like it's just like to a fan, like there's just so many things that like if I tell my seven year old kid that doesn't, you know, register with them. So why are we making it so tough for everybody else? And I think golf and I think golf has done a great job of that. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:05.841)
Thank

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:19.153)
Yeah. Yep.

Bobby Reynolds (01:05:25.066)
They now play an entire year, their entire fall and spring is their championship segment. So they will play some tournaments in the fall, realizing that teams and players aren't quite ready and they're working into it and they might not have their best results, but it doesn't matter. They're all playing the entire calendar, you know, towards the team results at the end of May. And...

Alvin Owusu (01:05:42.963)
Hmm.

Bobby Reynolds (01:05:51.02)
Again, I just think that is where we need to go to. I think we can do a better job of getting out in the community. I think we can do a better job of making it, you know, events where we're not going up against whether it be football, basketball, baseball, and some of the sports that, you know, historically draw better crowds, right? You know, I think we've done a great job here at Auburn. mean, honestly, you know, our matches, we're getting between 150 to 250 people every single match.

which is really, really good for kind of our, where we are, right? In Auburn. So, I mean, I think the women's match, their final eight, had 650 people for their outdoor match and then it got rained out and we went indoors. So, there is a huge following for the dual match. And that's what we have to keep double downing on and figuring how can we continue to build on that even though

Alvin Owusu (01:06:34.354)
wow.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:36.561)
That's awesome.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:43.727)
I agree.

Bobby Reynolds (01:06:50.505)
It's not what we're recruiting towards. And we have to take off those different hats.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:53.509)
But that's what I'm coming for. And so therefore you have to double down. That's a great point. But that's exactly what I was hoping you said. Because in my mind, I keep looking at there has to be however unlikely or improbable that that answer may be currently.

Sometimes a solution is simple. It just takes enough people to get around said solution and realize well, the way we're doing it right now ain't working. And we're cutting an SEC program. At some point, you're gonna have to start looking at how to change that dynamic for the sustainability overall. And change's hard for everybody. But at some point, if you don't change, you might be in worse shape. that's...

Bobby Reynolds (01:07:32.779)
That's right.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:37.914)
It is, I mean, it is the it is the competitive differentiator for like, I mean, there are so many levels of tennis, right? High level juniors, college, professional, low level pros, high level pros. But like the tournament is the thing. But college tennis has the that one thing that no other level of tennis has, which is the dual match. And it does not transfer well on television. Like, I understand why it might end up in an ESPN package. And that's has a lot to do with the football and the basketball things. And then

and then filling space, but in order for college tennis to be sustainable, Bobby, I'm right there with you. It's, getting people out to enjoy that one thing that makes college tenants different and special. And that is the, you can't watch six matches on a TV at one time, but you can get involved in six matches at one time if you're there. And that is, that's unique. That is unique. And you can, you can build a community around that. You really, I think you really, really can.

Bobby Reynolds (01:08:25.044)
definitely

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:26.481)
All right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:32.849)
Almost more because you have six courts, you know what mean? Because you can all get behind the match that's going on and the different matches. You're watching the guy, you're watching four, line four, that's down a break. know what I mean? No doubt. And you almost lose a little bit of the guy that's up a set in the break. He's fine. You're fine.

Alvin Owusu (01:08:45.957)
And they're yelling. And they're yelling. Down the courts. It's-

Alvin Owusu (01:08:55.347)
Yeah

Bobby Reynolds (01:08:55.55)
Yeah, he's okay. What's the craziness going on all the way down the courts? Exactly.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:00.199)
But it's-

Torrey Hawkins (01:09:00.953)
Like, who better be glad he's playing to the middle, you know what mean? Because, you the guy that's up a brick in the end, buddy, he's fine. He's good, he's good.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:07.411)
It's interesting to hear though about the making it an event, right? Because we heard the exact, Peter Lebedev said the exact same thing when he came on to talk about the Dallas Open. was like, it an event. The US Open, they're trying to make it an event. It's not just about what's going on on the tennis court. It's about being at the tennis facility. So along those lines, you'll see, you mentioned cocktails and things of the nature.

kind of things are you guys trying or have you seen other programs be successful with as far as eventizing the dual match?

Bobby Reynolds (01:09:45.993)
think honestly across the board, I mean, I'll be honest, I don't think we've done a great job as college coaches, right? Yes, we need a third hat. No, I really do, right? I I think back to my playing career and playing for the Washington Castles and Mark Ein as the owner. mean, nobody did it better than he did as a World Team Tennis owner, right? He made that place an absolute event to be at.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:52.115)
You need a third hat. That's what it is.

Bobby Reynolds (01:10:14.355)
The Who's Who of Washington DC came in to watch the matches and it didn't matter. I was not the star, right? But like the stands were filled. You know, there were 3,000, 2,000 people every single match. Now, obviously when you got Venus and Serena to come in, you know, it blew it off the top. But like even the regulars, right? We walk around, we'd walk around downtown DC and like people knew who you were. There were billboards. There was just everything he did. He made that one.

event that night for two hours, the show of DC. And it's amazing in Washington DC to be able to do that. Right. And that's what I think back to of that's where college tennis needs to somehow get to now maybe not to the same extent. I mean, we had a guy, an announcer and he was on stilts and he was literally like 20 feet tall, you know, and he was the show, you know, but like, like Mark thought of everything. I mean, just a genius as far as

Alvin Owusu (01:11:06.279)
Ha ha ha!

Bobby Reynolds (01:11:13.277)
business and just the way he thought and you know, it's not a surprise that he's so successful with everything he does. You know, he owns the Washington tournament, know, and just everything he has his hand in. He owns a part of the Nationals and I think he owns a part of the Commanders. you know, just an unbelievable visionary of everything. So I think that's where we got to get to somehow, right? And again, the hard thing as coaches is we have to evolve.

Right? I got into it, I said, 10 years ago, because I want to develop and I want to get guys to be professional tennis players and help them. But we have to take on different hats and we have to continue to realize, hey, this is the trajectory of college athletics. This is the trajectory of our sport in particular. And if we don't change as a whole or try to take from one bucket and put into another bucket as a whole, this whole thing might go down.

And that's scary to think about, but it is a reality that I think with the Arkansas really was eye opening for me.

Alvin Owusu (01:12:22.472)
Yeah, that's very well put and very insightful. think we should put a pin in it there and that allows us to get Bobby to come back and join us again for a third installment at some point in time. But yeah, so we'll stop there. Bobby, thank you so much for joining us. TH, always a pleasure. I'm Alvin, best of three, we are out.

Bobby Reynolds (01:12:32.168)
I know

Torrey Hawkins (01:12:41.083)
Thank