Sinner’s Exit, Shelton’s Clay Problem, and the New Depth of Men’s Tennis

Jannik Sinner’s five-set Roland Garros loss to Juan Manuel Cerundolo leads the episode, but the conversation quickly moves beyond the upset itself. Alvin and Torrey examine whether the result was simply a physical failure from Sinner, or whether it reflects a broader shift in the men’s game: deeper fields, longer rallies, and more complete opponents who can no longer be dismissed as early-round obstacles.

The most detailed tactical section centers on Ben Shelton’s loss to Raphael Collignon. Shelton’s clay game is improving, but the match exposed issues that matter on slower surfaces: return percentage, predictable forehand direction, and the need to build points from neutral positions rather than relying on first-strike power.

The episode closes by looking at the next generation of men’s tennis and the physical cost of the modern game. Players are faster, stronger, and more tactically advanced, but the body may not be evolving at the same pace as the sport.

Transcript

Alvin Owusu (00:00.628)
And welcome to another edition of the Best of Three Podcast. I'm Alvin, that's Tori. And we are we're coming to you post round two. maybe just beginning round three. We're actually recording this in the morning while some matches are are playing right now, on Friday morning. But I think the news from yesterday, the events of yesterday warranted us maybe popping on here and talking a little bit about what has happened to the top half of the men's straw. Yannick Center obviously lost in five sets.

Torrey Hawkins (00:22.273)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (00:28.604)
lost in five sets, let's put it that way. Yes, to one Manuel Segrundolo of Argentina and it i I mean at this point you know what happened, right? The the the elements got to Mr Mr. Center, our fair skinned friend, and he

Torrey Hawkins (00:47.264)
As they always seem to one match on most slams. I just gotta put that out there, Alvin. Almost

Alvin Owusu (00:53.351)
Something

Torrey Hawkins (00:54.294)
Almost everyone I know of the last six. I mean, I will I will put it that way. It could be longer. If I may be missing one or two here and there, but you mentioned the other day that night match saved him. If he kept getting nighttime matches, I said that's gonna help out, center. You talked about the weather. I was like, Yeah, weather and schedule. And sure enough, but they they both they both struck 12, didn't they? Didn't they not?

Alvin Owusu (01:14.542)
Yeah, it's a it's a it it's an important one.

It's an important one, yeah, because the weather was obviously it's been you know reportedly very hot in Paris. a lot of players are struggling. Mr. Center has a history. if you go back, not even to just the matches where he struggled and got through case in point, Australia against against Elliot Spaziri. But this goes back all the way to last year as well. Like his his can't remember if it like round of sixteen match or something like that against Holgaruna at Australian Open where he got a little

that he got to him. he he played the match I think in a in a very smart way. He he flexed the rules in his in his to his beha behalf. and so that was that was one instance, right? You I mean we didn't we weren't really paying much attention to Shanghai last year, but it also happened in Shanghai, right? where he lost to I think it was Tyler Grinkspoor, retired, had to be carried off the court.

Torrey Hawkins (01:51.446)
Make up straw.

Alvin Owusu (02:17.711)
Right. It was extremely hot in Shanghai last year, back into last year. And then again, Australia beginning of this year. So we're less less a what happened, right? We saw what happened. My man was up two sets and five one and then whatever what whatever it was did happen. and how it happened is you know, that's out that's outside of us to really speculate, right? He it's I I I don't think it's a conditioning thing, right? He's a highly conditioned athlete. It

Torrey Hawkins (02:29.366)
Yeah. Yeah.

Roll it.

Yeah, right.

Torrey Hawkins (02:42.382)
Sure. Sure. No.

Alvin Owusu (02:47.415)
It is something else that hot weather impacts him differently than other players. and I think he even mentioned that like he it was it was different than Australia. I'm like, I I don't care. I saw what I saw. And he's not he's no longer in the tournament. So that's the that's the what happens next, right? This is where we are in a tournament where we all assumed this was his, you know, his to take, right?

Torrey Hawkins (03:07.33)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (03:13.396)
thanks for the taking.

Alvin Owusu (03:15.311)
Which it doesn't it always seem like in sports when the obvious is obvious that the obvious thing doesn't happen? It's it's it's always it's always something. I mean like the easy comparison is like two thousand nine French open Nadal, right? Nadal goes out to I'm blanking on his name right now.

Torrey Hawkins (03:22.702)
A hundred percent.

Torrey Hawkins (03:35.497)
my main man, big forehand, Bobin Soderling.

Alvin Owusu (03:38.532)
Sodaling, right? Goes out to Sodling on a on a very wet day, cold day. Nadal's a little under the weather. Soderling gets him, right? And this kind of like and I think he was the the highest odds favorite to win the French Open before Yannick Center in this year, right? So something happens there, right? Over the over the the facility, right? People get get get here start to hear about it. and and yeah, the facility. Well

Torrey Hawkins (04:00.482)
Yeah.

Pix him up in the corner.

Alvin Owusu (04:09.071)
Exactly, but like yesterday, like even like some people were finding out I think the guy that that Sorindalo's playing in the next round didn't didn't realize he was playing against Sarindalo until the the press conference. He was like, What? Center Center lost? But during the match, like someone told his brother Francisco, who was playing at the same time, like like hey, your brother beat center, and he's What the hell? but I remember very s very speci S

Torrey Hawkins (04:32.942)
Imagine that match, your brother's playing center and and you and you go down in four or five and your brother. Well you won in four. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (04:38.939)
I mean, luckily Francisco won too, so it was a great day for the Cerindo family, but it's like it's like I'm sure his head was like, what the ha what? but if we go back to nine, right, and I'm gonna bring this back to present day top half of the mental. If you go back to 09, I remember this very specifically because I was watching kind of I wasn't really watching that match, but I was watching the Federer match. And they were playing at the same time. And Fed was

Torrey Hawkins (04:47.566)
Exactly. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (05:07.343)
Down two sets to love against Tommy Haas at the same time. And this match happens. Soderlink takes out an adal, I'm sure word traveled. And now it's like, okay, the opportunity is here. And then Federer goes on to win his only French Open, right? Goes down a few more rounds there. So now we're here. Center out, right? Not only was the bottom half of the draw heavier.

Torrey Hawkins (05:21.878)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (05:25.795)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (05:36.124)
Than the top half of the draw with like people who could win the event. It's even more lopsided now, right? We've lost center. Ben Shelton, who typically does really well at Grand Slams, he's also out. Lost yesterday in three sets, three sets to Colin Young. who our our friend of the pod, Chris, Chris G Banks, called out Cullen Young as a player he's really interested in a couple couple months ago now. so you've got that one. Bublick lost in the first round, Dardery lost yesterday, Vashero pulled out.

What are we what what what are we what are we doing, T H? Like

Torrey Hawkins (06:09.71)
It's parody at its finest. you know what Alvin, I got the sense yesterday watching all those matches. We've been going on as we rightfully should about how much parody there is on the women's side of things.

Alvin Owusu (06:25.604)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (06:26.782)
I felt yesterday with all the matches because the players weren't just getting it wasn't like they were they had bad days. These guys were just getting outplayed. Mind you, it's the clay. So it's a different type of game and and and different tactics and and what you it's the clay. It's it's the French. But these players were getting bested for whatever reason. And I say that to say.

Alvin Owusu (06:40.901)
Sure, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (06:50.744)
The parody on the men's side is alive and well, and there are so many players. I feel like this tournament has a little air of the Australian to it, where there's always a lot of upsets in Australia for whatever reason. And I feel like the tournament this year in the French is extremely volatile, where you don't know. Being a seed, you have a target on your back, buddy. And you have one on your back anyway. But in this tournament in particular,

There have been so many matches where the

Just missed seating or that 33 through 50-ish player really feels like they almost have the advantage. I mean, almost almost a chip on their shoulder, like, you're seated, huh? Okay, I got you. And it's almost a a detriment because you think about it, if guys good on clay, really not a really not a downside. And now you get that player's draw, should you be able to go through them? Collignon and and and Shelton was a good example. Renan.

and and the who did he play my main man was it did he play dar dare who did he no the the Italian Matteo Bertini you know he just so there was so many that match was was a was a heck of a match and you know and Brennanek is a good player. My point I think he was just was seated. So I I see it

Alvin Owusu (08:07.013)
Beratini, yep.

Alvin Owusu (08:15.461)
He was seated twenty yeah, twenty two, something like that, or twenty, twenty four twenty eight.

Torrey Hawkins (08:17.132)
These kind of matches have been I keep watching and it's almost to a match. I'm not saying every seed has lost. I'm saying that the seed has almost had a tougher time through it. You know, that it's it just shows you how deep the men's game is. And if you see that same player

on hardcore. I have no doubt. I have no doubt that Ben would have dispatched Colignon, you know, in in in straight sense on a hard on a on a hardcore surface. Certainly on grass. The serve would have been just that big. I have no doubt that it would have been, I won't say it would have been routine. I'm gonna say it would have been a bit more straightforward for Ben. But it's on the clay.

And Colin shows you how much his clay court IQ, tennis IQ, how high it was. And at that point, dare I say he's a better clay court player. And and Ben just won a title on the clay this year. Ben is not. He's sliding well, Alvin. He's doing a lot of good things. His clay court tactics, his options are just a little bit predictable. And that's what hurt him. And that may be that may be enough to level the playing field. Now you add on the other pieces, the heat.

The draw, the pressure, things over and up. Well, at that point now, but it's it could be it's anybody's match. So I get what you're saying. I think I saw, I don't know, eight match yesterday, almost to a match. Every single one of them looked like they had their hands full or they got upset. And that happened on the guys and the girls' side, but especially the guys, and I don't think we, you know, I think it really speaks to the level of play of the 33 through, I'm gonna say 64 for another round number for the tennis terms, that that house size.

Solid level is, especially if they had some level of growing up development on the dirt, they are dangerous to deal with.

Alvin Owusu (10:04.74)
Well, let's go ahead and extend that a little bit further. Yeah, I I think it's even less the surface. As part of this is the is the homogeneity of the game right now, which allows for, you know, a lot of players to have and then that's not just player skill set being developed, you know. European players who typically, you know, traditionally would have come up on clay have also spent time on hardcourt earlier in their careers than normal. which then makes them, you know, opens up their game a little bit more,

Torrey Hawkins (10:26.434)
Sure. Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (10:32.258)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (10:33.518)
from a developmental window standpoint. And so when you get there get here to this point, literally five or six in the world through forty in the world, like anyone can get it. Like as we at we've said this before, it's showing up now. And I think with that specifically with that that Shelton versus Conan Young match, it's like what you saw is that because of the clay takes out that high end pop, right, that that some players might have. It r it kind of brings that effectiveness down a little bit.

Torrey Hawkins (10:45.059)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (11:03.422)
which happens to Ben, it starts to then magnify your ability to construct points and be consistent and do that over and over again, which we've talked about on Clay Court, right? Do it over and over again, point in, point out. And another thing that gets exacerbated is like so you have to return well, right? Because if you're not getting as many free points, then you can't give away as many

as many free points. You have to start every point, especially on second survey terms. And this is something when we talk about Ben, we've been talking about this for a while. his return percentage, the the return side of the game altogether has got to it it it's gotta tick up. It's gotta tick up. And it and it's not it's not even it's not even taking second survey turns and starting to

Torrey Hawkins (11:30.936)
Yeah.

Every point. Every point. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (11:45.986)
Right. Right. Just d has got to take up a little bit as he as he can as he continues to improve. Hundred percent. There there's no there's no question.

Alvin Owusu (11:58.479)
build from there, build offense from there, it's like we gotta make more second serve returns. I saw so many missed just missed second serve returns yesterday. And I remember a conversation I had with Scoville years ago and we were talking about what happens at when you know when you're returning and you're up 30 15, he's like, Alvin, you just you just got you gotta make that you gotta make that second serve return. Like you have to make it. Like they're just kind of these basics to the game that you just have to do before you can do anything else.

Torrey Hawkins (12:21.934)
But yeah.

Alvin Owusu (12:28.298)
And if you were playing against a player who is just gonna be solid on both wings, solid on both sides of the court, it's like, well then you have to for your high end to show up, you also have to be solid.

Torrey Hawkins (12:39.222)
Solid.

And and it's gotta be a little more than a deep block. It's gotta be a little more than a, you know, than just a, you know, let's get started. Let me just punt punt this and and kind of get the play going. No, no, no. You've gotta be able to reset, make that guy back up, and defend the first strike as soon as possible. And especially on the clay where you can get wrong footed, because you can end up starting off behind, even on a second serve if you're not careful, or in a sense, laying up so I'm gonna say so basic that you're not

hurting guy anyway and and at that point there's no pressure on the server with the second serve. So it it it's a it's a definitely a mindset thing with Ben in particular. I thought he I'm really liking his I I like one piece of his click movement. He's sliding well he's covering the core well he's using his heavy well he's slicing very well on the other side

Alvin Owusu (13:26.564)
Slidin'

Alvin Owusu (13:30.372)
The lefty hook is is looking pretty good.

Torrey Hawkins (13:32.022)
Lefty hook was going was going money. I feel like his I feel like he's hitting too big as he's going backwards and I feel like he's hitting

All almost always going open court so much so that he's leaving the ball behind the person. He like it almost got to the point where Colin Young was almost cheating ahead to the open court because Ben almost I think it was one big forehand where he went back behind him in the third. like I that I watched almost almost the whole match. And I just see it to say he just you're you gotta also challenge your opponent's footwork. You know what I mean? And and that's and and their court position. You can't always be hitting option A, option A, option A. At some point, you gotta go option B.

B throw them off, which may open up option A down the road. So, no, I agree with you. I I I feel like I watched a lot of the matches I watched. Again, to your point, it's the returns are huge. the the the match with the new the new French kid, the new 17-year-old, Kwame, you know, Moise he he showed me some nice things yesterday, but again, great returns. He has great strokes, Alvin. The first time I watched him, I didn't see that

Alvin Owusu (14:30.596)
Mes says quame, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (14:42.448)
Level of his of his skill set. I saw a quick scrappy counter puncher and I saw I you know obviously getting a chance to watch him play for five sets. Now I see his technique is solid, his footwork is solid. He's just 17. This kid's gonna be this kid's gonna be alright. I mean he's gonna be alright. I just I feel like he is starting to really play starting to show us, or we're starting to see, I should say, the level. But to your point about the returns, he has a heavy ball anytime he needs.

needs it for both reset purposes as well as getting the ball out of a guy's strike zone and he can strike when he needs to and he does both fairly comfortably. He can go in and out of of the of the heavy and the drive components very well. So again, the clay, you need to have all these options if you're going to be good on the clay. You know what I Add that he's fast and scrappy and decent serve. I mean, you know you're you you just there you really can't have weakness on the clay if if you want to be successful.

Alvin Owusu (15:41.474)
Yeah, and I think let's let's let's go even further. We you mentioned you mentioned Kouame from France. Like and this is the we've we've talked about this before. These young players. Like players developing juniors are always gonna be looking those who have aspirations to go pro are gonna be looking at the pro at the pro game as they're developing their own game in their t in their teens, kind of those formative development years. And when you we've talked about the comp between

Torrey Hawkins (16:00.694)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (16:11.278)
Hodar, who is I believe nineteen, to Yannick Center. Like very, very, very similar, right? And I always go, Okay, four years ago, let's say five four years ago.

Torrey Hawkins (16:23.746)
What what it's gonna look like. But

Alvin Owusu (16:25.29)
Right. Yeah, what was Center doing? That was the that was okay, twenty twenty two US Open backcourt, Center versus Alcaraz, that five hour match that like it that that is the like the we're talking about the French open match final from last year. Go back and watch that match. That was just as entertaining. Lower stakes, but you you s when you watch that, you watch the two matches kinda side by side, you're like, Jesus Christ, this is crazy. But at that time, that's twenty twenty two, that's four years ago, right? Hodar, fifteen years old, right, watching that.

Torrey Hawkins (16:53.006)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (16:54.106)
Okay, you see what you get. Kwame, thirteen years old. And what do you see out of him now? He looks like a I'm not gonna say he looks like Carlos Alcaraz, but he is the way he gets in and out of the corners, like glides into the corners, stings line from those open stance positions, in a in a more compact form. It's like that skinny cross that I love. It's it's it's like you see it, it's happening in real time. now obviously the big difference I think between

Torrey Hawkins (16:58.435)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (17:24.132)
Kwame and Carlos at the age of seventeen is well, Carlos was a little bit older. He was like closer to nineteen at that point in time. But it's hard to say what's what what's gonna happen physically to this young kid. But what you did see was someone who was not afraid to meet the moment and all of his game was on full expression yesterday. It was it ha he had to do everything.

Torrey Hawkins (17:35.736)
Sure, sure.

Torrey Hawkins (17:45.926)
And had to be. And and had to everything and had to do everything well. And it was again, I would it just it just really it it shows me the that the depth and the and the and just the

I I guess the layers the there's layers to this, right? It's there's so many layers of what you can defend, what how you can expose, how you can't let yourself get exposed. It's not just the strokes and the tactics, not just the movement and the conditioning. it's also a little bit of the tennis IQ to say, and I'm gonna keep going for this ball enough that I'm gonna keep hurting you enough that you have to get away from it or find another way. And when you go the other way, I'm gonna shut that down.

Enough that you come back, you come back to the old B hand down the line. And I felt that both Fonseca and Kwame yesterday showed they showed how good their actual backhand sides were and their movement. And I just feel like that's one of the things as I'm looking at coaching juniors now, as I've talked about coaching juniors. My big thing that I'm looking at for everybody when I see this, please, please don't run from your weakness. Embrace that thing. Get

It better, somebody at some level will expose it. It's college kids, juniors going to college happens all the time.

Get that thing fixed now. A good player will figure it out. They will handle it. I never forget the Haley came back to me. It was the top one of the top kids in the country at one Easter Bowl going in and he went through his first semester. I had been talking to Brian. Brian had one the best backhands in the country. We were talking about, I say, you might need an open stance backhand. And I remember, man, every coach was talking about, his backhands fine. He's the best backhand. He's gonna boo you watch. I'm like, okay. I'm like, you know, sure enough, he gets it the first three or four months. He

Torrey Hawkins (19:38.29)
Booked five lessons with me. The first pre first break he had in college, I gotta get OpenStain's backhand. And I'm like, what happened? He goes, the guys are yanking me to the forehand side, running my backhand. He goes, All I can do is step across and tag and go line. And if I miss it, I'm done. And I'm like

Yep. In my mind, I'm thinking, yep, that makes sense. But I didn't think it would happen that quickly. I thought it would have happened, you know, maybe year two, maybe, maybe, maybe as he got to the high no, it happened right away. And I said, and I and again, same thing here. You're talking about the best juniors. You know, Brian ended up getting 15-year-old ATP. Wasn't like he wasn't like he was trash. Number one in college, you know, he helped UVA go from mid-60s to number five in the country in one year. So you know the the the brother was doing some sledding, but even even a backhead at that level was not able to handle the transformation.

To college, let alone pro. So again, it's one of those things where I go, I can't I can't say it enough. Get the weakness fixed, embrace it. But we were coming modern day. We were talking about cocoa. Get it fixed. Get it fixed now. You know what I mean? Move forward. Your game's not gonna go up a level without it. You can you can get by, you can cover it up a little bit, buddy. At a certain point, it'll get exposed if you don't if you don't take care of it.

Alvin Owusu (20:50.381)
Yep. that's the well put. I think th that's that's kind of one side with with Kwame and and your to your point about making sure the whole thing is built solidly from the base all the way up. And I think you're starting to see that with the this this wave of of young players, right? They're all they all seemingly are ready to go. they don't have holes, right?

Torrey Hawkins (21:14.52)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (21:17.443)
What they don't what they lack in experience, they make up for with being pretty I mean, I'm I'm not gonna say bulletproof, but like they're solid. And I think this goes all the way back and really get into this development thing, right? This is your this is your wave of players, especially I mean it's an American Americans, we're a little late on this, but like the kids coming up like strictly through the quick start system, right? Red ball, orange ball, green dot ball. It's like that exists so that you can always have balls in your strike zone.

And you don't have to make these deformations in your in your grip and the way that you that the way that you build your strokes to adjust for a high bouncing ball, right? We can just you have the opportunity to get it right from the beginning. And I think that is what's that's what's showing up. And you're you're seeing I mean, you're seeing the fruits of that. It's a little long tail, but the the youth movement, right? The young guns here, they're all like showing up in this event. Like and it's not like here's who's coming. It's like who's here's right n who's here right now, obviously.

Torrey Hawkins (22:15.054)
Who's here already? Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (22:16.129)
Yeah, Kw Kwame, we we we talked about Rodar. I mean Hodar we've talked about he's playing Mickelson right now, which actually should be a really good match. I th I see a lot of things that Mickelson does well that will at least allow him to make Hodar work. but then Fonseca, who's playing later today, he's playing Junkovich. I guess when you guys hear this, that match will be well over. Future Me is interested to see how or present me is interested to see what future me thinks of that match. and then like

Torrey Hawkins (22:43.692)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (22:45.813)
Landeluce got got through in five yesterday. Colin Young obviously against Shelton. So like I Colin Young is not young per se, he's twenty four, but it's all it's all happening. It's all happening. And I like to see these guys, like I mentioned in our previous pod, show up in the Grand Slam. Take this momentum and then show up and they're and they're showing up. all

Torrey Hawkins (23:06.562)
doing even even Dino prismech you know is a is a is a very you know elderly twenty years old you know I mean going up against Yao So even that Max there you know I'm telling you there's so many so much youth the young man that Kwame played I think he's only like he's only like twenty two. I mean these these guys there there's a wave of young players right here Alvin that are really pushing through you know th to to really take the elder statesmans you know that who are a little bit long in the tooth. These guys are saying, hey, don't sleep on me.

Alvin Owusu (23:15.735)
That's a

Torrey Hawkins (23:36.588)
And I and you mentioned this on the on several episodes back about the whole certain age before this and the age after this and you know before center and Alcaraz and afters, right? And I have to tell you, I've been more I didn't think much of it at the time. I'm thinking, whatever, Alvin, that's just kind of a an anomaly, you know, numerically speaking. But in reality, a lot of these guys that who we're talking about the next gen players specifically and a lot of their counterparts, Kwame wasn't next gen. He didn't make that tournament last year.

Alvin Owusu (24:02.368)
Not yet. He'll

Torrey Hawkins (24:03.618)
No, not yet. My point is, but that was that was Learner Tien and and Fonseca and other kind of players kind of coming up. That was a that's a group of eight that played that term. That's not that's not eighteen in a in-mass blanket group. You're talking about players who didn't quite get it, a year or two ahead of them, or maybe it'd been next year in their their year, and a few youngers that are coming out that I have to tell you, Alvin, it's been it's been fun to watch. And the elder statesmans, with the exceptions of a couple, you know, obviously the

Torrey Hawkins (24:35.788)
My boy's younger brother, Francisco's younger brother.

Alvin Owusu (24:39.756)
What a minimal.

Torrey Hawkins (24:41.142)
Juan Manuel. Juan Manuel and and and Colin Yon who are who yeah some some some very self- but they're not 29. They're not 30. You know, they're they're 20. Well, I think I think Juan Manuel's what, 22? You know what I mean? And I'm and I'm cause I'm because Francisco's can't can't be more than 24, 25. So I say it to say even the young ones. Colin Young's 24. These guys are still battling too, Alvin, and they're showing that the for the guy that played first round against against center. I think he was his first time playing on on a field that big, he was I want to say he was 20.

You know, so these guys are the that age, it seems to be for the tournament. If you took a median age for the players in the tournament right now, you would have a whole lot more in that age range than you have, say, the Tiafos, you know, the Tiafos, the Zvervs, and the and the others that are, you that are on the you know, that are on the other side of things.

Alvin Owusu (25:30.582)
Yeah, and e even to go a little further, like we'll finish up on Kuwame. It's not that he's like yeah, seventeen is a that's a cool number. My guy just turned seventeen. He turned seventeen in March. He's a young seventeen. That is g see that's that is wild TH. That's wild.

Torrey Hawkins (25:42.04)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (25:46.636)
Alvin. Solid Alvin. Solid. Absolutely solid. And and hey, again, fun to watch. Loves the moment. You know what I mean? All always always got the let me hear it. Come on now.

Alvin Owusu (25:54.285)
Yep. He he's he's he's he's ready. He he's ready. He is he's ready for prime time.

Torrey Hawkins (25:59.34)
He's ready. Ready for prime time. You know what I mean? And I and I and I like his game. You know what I loved about his game? As much as he loves the praise, he don't mind he loves the grind just as much. And and and I'll just say that as my last comment. He doesn't, he's you would expect with a kind of a personality like his, you'd expect him to be a lot more, you know, brash with the shot selection. He stayed he stayed cross as often as he could. He had a solid pattern, and it was two cross, one line. Like he's done that drill till the cows come home. He was

very disciplined for a kid that's got a little bit of got an affinity for the highlight. You know what I mean? And I'll and I like that. When I see a kid that is as athletic as he is, who doesn't mind being solid and just staying the course, that's a good combination.

Alvin Owusu (26:44.812)
And it's it's an interesting one because for me when I'm watching players like him when I young players like him, there's a certain amount of like I come out of the match and I like I see the same thing you see, like he's you can see the dis if you're if you allow yourself to not get caught up in the what I call the flash, which is like the occasional like well he'll just go for a winner out of nowhere, or the drop shots or the you know, out of the corner stuff, the stuff that catches your eye. When you're when you

When you look at the from the macro and go, what is he doing? It's like or it's you can see what he's doing. It's like you see the discipline when you're looking at it. But then what is he trying to do? It's like, I don't know what he's trying to do. I don't know if he knows what he's trying to do, because he still hasn't put together his this is how I win at this level. This is how I impact other professional tennis players. He's in that I I he's kind of still in that I'm trying to figure it out kind of match by match. And that is in itself is

Torrey Hawkins (27:15.286)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (27:18.855)
right.

Torrey Hawkins (27:26.658)
Right. Still figuring it out. Still figuring it out. Sure. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (27:41.962)
A little wild that he is doing this Yeah man. Yeah. Which

Torrey Hawkins (27:43.192)
Yeah. A and impressive.

And and and very impressive. It it's it's it's a it's a little bit like watching some of the young players on the Spurs team right now, you know, using a basketball crossover crossover to help throw it all together. You know, Wemby, Castle, Vassell, all these players are on the young side. They're still figuring some things out, you know, and they are you see it you're seeing a a a stub of the toe in a certain game or two, but you gotta keep mind they're still young. You know, they had they haven't been in this moment before. And there was this moment, I guess, after

maybe after game three, game four, you know, the the Hall of Famers, you know, you got T Mac and Vin Sanity and and Mello all talking about, you know, looking back on it, right? With with age on their side and perspective. And I remember the the co-host, the tall the I forget my my girl's name, the the the tall black the the the host slash of of the kind of of them she asked them a very pertinent question.

Where were you all at at 22? Where were you all at in your first final? Where were you all at in your and each one of them came down from Mount Hall of Fame to, man, I was on the bench. Or man, I was tired of game one. And and and you saw this immediate level of, man, now that you mention it, you know.

Alvin Owusu (28:55.064)
First round.

Torrey Hawkins (29:04.392)
This is y and and and her to her point I thought it was a great question and she wasn't digging on them at all, but she was just having and nor asked them to eat eat humble pie. She didn't know the answer. She was just wanting them to reflect on, put yourself back when you were there. Where were you? Right? 'Cause it's easy to say it now, you know, with with years behind you and and and, you know, perspective. But and each person to a person said, you know, I I even think Mello made some comment about, you know, your first final and he w he made a comment, I didn't get there, you know.

Alvin Owusu (29:33.272)
I didn't get the final, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (29:34.208)
You know, so it was a each of them. And Mello is arguably the you know the the high the the leading score at all of them, but you obviously all those years with the Knicks didn't didn't quite make that run, you know, for for various reasons. But I say it to say even the Hall of Famers had to look back and say, you know, I mean, yeah, yeah, when you put it like that, it was it was it was a little different. And that makes it all the more impressive. It isn't the youth, it's that they're doing it so early.

No, which which which isn't necessarily the same point, is it? It's you know, they are doing it so much sooner in their career, figuring it out on the fly. And again, it doesn't matter the sport, it makes it that much more impressive. you know, and you know, women's side too, you know, we'll you know, with with Ivo Yovich and what what she's starting to do and it just simp you gotta keep in mind how, you know, they're they're still processing a lot of this and they're catching up to speed literally in half the time. some cases a third of the time as

their elder peers. So it's just it's just fun to watch. You know, and and then you appreciate the Coco's, the Evas, you appreciate Yals and and the others and Raphael's what they're doing so much more because you realize they've caught up to five, six years of tour level within two or within 18 months.

Alvin Owusu (30:38.153)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (30:51.95)
You know what I mean? And then you really appreciate, whoa, that it's not just that they're that good or they can play at that level. Of course they can play at the level. They're that good. That's impressive in its own. Now they're able to have the savvy, to have the the confidence, to have the the tactics that it takes a player a year or two to game. Now you start saying so, and man, and where might they be in another year or two? Buddy, that's gonna be impressive.

Alvin Owusu (31:15.767)
Right. Well there's there's still the part about like the it's the level is one thing and then like what does it take to actually be able to produce the level at a tournament like this? And this is where I go back to someone like Fonseca and you're gonna say the same thing, the Kuame, a lot of these young players, like you when your body hasn't had a t enough time to put in the the the time in the weight room, right? Get the strength in the legs to be able to produce in a three out in a five set match, you know, in the middle of the season.

Torrey Hawkins (31:43.384)
Yep. Nope.

Alvin Owusu (31:45.232)
with seven tournaments under your belt already, maybe eight at this point. It that's that is like these matches don't happen in a vacuum, right? They're not video games. They they happen with the both players come to the court with everything that's happened to them before coming onto this court. And that that not only does that include like in a grand slang within the last forty eight hours, what did you do two days ago? which I think is gonna show up against like Menshik plays Demon Or today. It's like, well Minchick about died out there in his court in his match two days ago.

Torrey Hawkins (31:52.27)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (31:59.559)
Exactly. Right. Right.

Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (32:13.09)
Yeah. Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (32:15.076)
And and Demon got a walkov. So it's it's like what are what are we expecting? It's like I don't I don't know.

Torrey Hawkins (32:17.622)
Right. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And and and players like Kwame and Yao are gonna have to they're gonna have to turn around pretty quickly. You know what I'm saying? Because it's gonna be

Alvin Owusu (32:27.199)
Right. Exactly. Yeah, I mean Yal's got his Yal's Yao's got his I wanna get to the I wanna get to the Funseca part of it, but before I do that, I'm looking at the top half of the men's draw and you know, shouts to one, the Americans are doing a fantastic job. The women always have been doing a great job over the last few years. so that's kind of case they're they're doing what they're supposed to do over there. But on the men's side, you're starting to see players like like Tien is starting to show up in the later like, you know, making his way through the opening rounds of of

of slams consistently one of five setter a couple days ago. Zachary Svada, right? We don't talk about him a lot, but making his making his way through, he's picked up two W's here. He plays the other the the seated Sarindolo in the next round. And then be not be not Right. Yeah. B no B Nox got Brandon Nakashima has FAA in the next round and

Torrey Hawkins (33:08.876)
The seat is from below. Gotta gotta give a man his props now, don't you?

Torrey Hawkins (33:19.724)
had a had a strong five four or five seven yesterday. I think it was five yesterday, Dina. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (33:23.019)
He went five yesterday, yeah. and then and then Francis is is in the third round too. He made had a fantastic match against Hubie Herkach. really, really happy to see Francis doing he just looks like he's looking like the professional he said he was gonna look like in the beginning of the year. I called I called Show me on his on his declarations of putting in the hard work and no one's watching, yada yada yada. I'll I'll fall back on the yada yada yada. He is he is

Torrey Hawkins (33:40.184)
Hundred percent.

Torrey Hawkins (33:46.606)
Yep. Yep. Right.

Alvin Owusu (33:52.5)
showing up in matches that last year, as recently as last year, we would have seen expected him not to show up in. I'll go back to the Minchik match in Miami, tough three setter that he won there. Go back to the Hercatch match yesterday. I believe that was five sets. And yeah, and he just stayed the course. He never looked deterred from like even when he lost those two sets in tiebreakers, he just looked like I'm I'm gonna stick with it. I'm gonna stick with it. I'm gonna stick with it. And, you know, the margins are thin, but if your body is there

Torrey Hawkins (33:52.664)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (34:07.223)
But

Alvin Owusu (34:22.187)
to see the end, then that little margin can can be exposed. So I I mean we we're looking at a world here in which I mean it's someone on the top half of this draw is gonna make the final. Two of these guys are gonna make the semi. it could be we could be looking at Leonardian versus FAA in the in the quarters. We could be looking at Tiafo against hell if I know Landaluce in the in the quarters. Like it's it's it's wide open, but the the and

Torrey Hawkins (34:22.402)
Yep. Yep.

A hundred percent.

Torrey Hawkins (34:47.874)
Right, right.

Alvin Owusu (34:51.339)
The thing you can't take away from this is my last part about this. The thing that you can't take away from this moment is that when someone makes this run, yes, they would not have they didn't have to go through center, they didn't have to on the they didn't have to go through Novak or Zverev or Carlos on the top half of this draw. But the belief that they come out with at the end of this event, it doesn't matter who they beat to get there. Like you semifinal you semi-final grand slam, you are forever a semifinalist of a grand slam, like a grand slam semifinalist.

Torrey Hawkins (35:14.06)
Hundred percent.

Alvin Owusu (35:21.215)
And that carries you. You see yourself differently. Players see you differently. there's an opportunity in front of all these guys right now. And I just hope that we see players go for it and not someone fall into it. Like that's all. That's all that's all I ask for.

Torrey Hawkins (35:23.0)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (35:35.864)
Hundred percent. Alvin, I think there are three seeds left of the sixteen remaining on that top half. Just just think about that for a second. Three seeds, if if my if my counting is correct, there are three seeds left for those for those eight. For those eight. Forgive me.

Alvin Owusu (35:49.617)
One, two, three, four five, five, five, five, five. yeah, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (35:55.49)
And left. So I'm saying, including notably the number one seed. So I'm just saying, think about how many other seeds have gone down, is my point going forward. All unseated going to that point. And and that's that's just that's just something to understand. And and and again, not not to be on my point is it's not lost on me that the quality of the tennis has been high. It's not like you say, Yeah, he had a bad day, and man, that really takes the air out of the tournament because you, you know, center was while a major headline was one of

Alvin Owusu (36:02.454)
Gotcha.

Torrey Hawkins (36:25.284)
Many that got upset, and that speaks to the level of the play, and obviously the and and but also the level of the field.

Alvin Owusu (36:33.235)
The center one I I'm even willing to. We're gonna have to look at that one a little bit differently because conditioning is part of it. He is not a deconditioned athlete. He he was the better tennis player for the vast majority of that match until until the tennis left his body, right?

Torrey Hawkins (36:42.797)
Yeah.

No, a hundred percent.

Torrey Hawkins (36:52.59)
I would say till till two point seven five sets.

Alvin Owusu (36:57.151)
Right. I mean the man was up two sets to love and five one. Like I mean he was doing the thing until the until literally until he wasn't until he was no longer with us, right? And so that's that is that is something to I I think address like we did, on its own, but the rest of them is like these guys are just getting beat, like Colin Young just beat he just beat Ben. He just beat him. Like there was nothing there was no injury, there was no flukiness. Colin's a good player and he just beat him.

Torrey Hawkins (37:03.745)
until he wasn't. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (37:19.116)
Just beat better. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (37:24.29)
Yep. No, no, no, no. Yeah. The the re the reason I'll push back slightly on the center one, and I just want to make this one small point. In every situ I'll say every, I that's that's a bit that's a that's that's a label. It tends to happen that center gets beyond the benefit of the doubt in these moments. You said Benz the rules in his favor. The ref literally asked him, right, what did he want to do?

Alvin Owusu (37:27.388)
so that's

Torrey Hawkins (37:53.942)
And I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. What does he want to do? What do you think he wants to do? Can I get about a 15-minute break and get a sandwich and come back out here and put a fresh cage of clothes and go off site in the air conditioner? Of course. No, and that's my issue with both the Runa match, Australia, Smaziri match. It's like we keep deferring to that top. And that's why I give Sarundalo, the other Sorundalo a lot of credit because he's he's out there in the heat too. You know, you you can't, you know, it's it's the same condition on both sides. You know, and so and so I say that to say he said.

Alvin Owusu (38:20.209)
Everyone's out there. Everyone's out there.

Torrey Hawkins (38:23.896)
Same thing happened with him, you know, in in some of the other matches. He's been getting the benefit of the doubt. He got a chance to, and well past the 20 the the the seconds, the second clock album. I mean, well past. I mean, he is the 20 seconds. He got and and then a qu and then he got the ref to come down and ask him, hey, hey, are you okay? Do you want to take the time violation? Do you want to get the medical? Are you serious? You know what I mean? That that's so that's why I'm saying, and then you got the opponent over there staying true.

Meanwhile, down two sets in a break or two, trying to figure out how do I stay in this, and I know they're getting the unfair quote-unquote treatment. Nothing bothered him. I just mentioned that to say it's not like he didn't get help. There wasn't he didn't get robbed. He may have been assisted and still couldn't get through. So I say that I gotta make that point because I felt like one did a phenomenal job. Swindalo did a phenomenal job of finishing the drill, even though his number one seed and four.

time Grand Slam champ opponent was getting let's just say preferential treatment while he was up and you could even you know you could even make the argument he was being helped. So that was that's why I have to put that in there about he did lose those last three sets. You know what I mean? So totally understand everything else.

Alvin Owusu (39:42.081)
Do you do you hear that in the background? That's the that's the clickety clack, clickety clack of the keyboard warriors. I feel like they're just kick kick kick it right now. Right now. Just I can't believe you just said I just said that. That's our king. but it it's it it it's it's all part of it. I I talk to you know, non-tennis fans and other tennis fans about tennis all the time. And one thing that I always I always say, I feel like I say this a lot of times in a lot of different contexts, is that tennis matches are chaos. They're chaos. Everyone

Torrey Hawkins (39:48.838)
hey hey please.

Alvin Owusu (40:12.202)
We we we hone our strokes, our our our skills. We go through drills. We practice, we practice. And and everything is fine in practice. Everyone's great in practice, right? But when you get into a match, everyone's got an idea. And you know Mike Tyson's always like, you you know, everyone's gotta play game plan until they get punched in the mouth. In tennis, you're getting punched in the mouth every single point, right? Every every point starts with a

Torrey Hawkins (40:31.693)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (40:36.822)
A 120 punch to the mouth, right? So it's all a lot of it is just reacting and dealing with what's coming under in a circumstances which you don't know what's gonna happen. You don't know what's coming off the other guy's strength. It's not a ball machine, it's another person. So by nature, tennis matches are chaotic. And so anything can happen within a tennis match. Anything. And it's it's it's seldom about who is the better tennis player.

Torrey Hawkins (40:57.378)
Yep. And does.

Alvin Owusu (41:04.626)
I say tennis player, who is the better ball striker, who hits the ball harder, who hits it cleaner. That stuff is nice and that stuff generally gets you to a certain point. But in any given match, that stuff doesn't matter because chaos will ensue. And the same things that make Yannick Center a great, you know, a lot of who he is comes from who he is, right? He's this he's this kid who grew up being a, you know, he's a skier and he has this flexibility in the corners. Like, well

If you're growing up in South America, you're not gonna be a skier, right? If if you're a skier, you end up with a you're typically coming from a region of the world where the skin's a little fairer, the the the blood's a little thinner, right? It's it's it it produces it allows you to be a different type of person, which allows him to be a different type of tennis player. So all these benefits he has, no.

Torrey Hawkins (41:55.724)
We played an indoor altitude, he would be money.

Alvin Owusu (42:00.315)
Right, right. And so like we we can't just like dismiss it out of hand that like this is just one random thing that that happens to him. It's like, you know, w without this he'd be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, well, if he if he this is also a factor of, you know, a resultant of the other things that he's happens to be really, really blessed with. So I'm not dismissing it all. I'm just saying it is different. But tennis matches

Torrey Hawkins (42:14.381)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (42:19.422)
How does that?

Torrey Hawkins (42:27.82)
Yeah.

But but tennis matches a chaos and and which is why you play the game. And again, I I I I just I can't emphasize it enough. And I didn't feel like the turn while we lost a great champion and you lost a headliner, for sure it's always tough. I felt like the quality of tennis in the tournament is ticking up so much so that you know he'll always be missed. He's an Egyptian center, he's our current role number one. But I felt like for this tournament, I felt like he he joins the carnage of a play.

Alvin Owusu (42:29.749)
Are always different.

Torrey Hawkins (42:59.408)
And I just have to say, I felt like the the rest of the tournament is doing a great job of keeping butts in the seats.

Irregardless of who's left. And I feel like in that and that's the sign of a great of a great field of of contestants when you're, you know, if this keeps up, Alvin, in two more rounds, you'll be like, man, if these who's this guy, and man, we have great magic. So so and that was awesome. And what what happened? he lost two rounds ago. It like that's what you want from a tournament is you want the level of play to still be so high that you you almost don't miss the fact that five of your top ten, or maybe maybe more, but

at this point, six of your top ten are out of the draw, you know, and and it's, you know, and we haven't even finished the first week yet.

Alvin Owusu (43:44.5)
Yeah, and that's that's that's it's when you look at it from two different standpoints, right? Like from a media standpoint, they're like ESPN or sorry, ESPN, TNT would love for their star power to be there. Like the now our our the banner match from twenty twenty six was Alcaraz versus Center in the French Open Final, and neither one of them are rolling into the middle weekend, right? So so what we're lacking in star power, you know, has an impact on the shine of the event, but

Torrey Hawkins (43:55.31)
Hundred percent.

Torrey Hawkins (44:05.806)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (44:13.471)
For the tennis fans, the true tennis fans, when you're watching these matches, you are not underserved at all. Like, not not one bit. And that's, you know I think it was Nadal said it and Federer b said it on their way out. Like, don't worry about me, tennis will be fine. Tennis will always be fine because these all these players are all really, really good. And we haven't even talked about the women's side. We're kind of just focusing on this, this the carnage happening on the men's side in today's particular podcast. But

Torrey Hawkins (44:19.448)
No, no, a hundred percent.

Torrey Hawkins (44:31.202)
And this will be fine.

Alvin Owusu (44:43.123)
I wanted to you mentioned you mentioned Fonseca a little bit a little while ago and Dino Prismich. Like that match was amazing. It was so much fun. And you've got two guys who are you know, Fonseca's nineteen, Prismich is twenty years old. Dino's older, but as far as his professional, you know, journey, he hasn't played as many. He he got hurt a little earlier on in his career. He's been battling a lot of injuries, but

Torrey Hawkins (44:52.792)
Solid. Very solid. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (45:11.571)
you talk about young seventeen year olds hitting the scene, like he was that dude before Fonseca and and Hodar. he he was number one junior coming out, I think he was maybe the year after Kasimotovich or maybe two years after, but like he was that guy. Had he stayed stayed healthy, we'd be looking at him in a different light. But he's healthy now, he's here now. but the one thing you can't replace is experience in these scenarios. He just hasn't like you saw he came out guns blazing against Fonseca

Torrey Hawkins (45:28.578)
Yep. Right.

Alvin Owusu (45:41.172)
Doing his thing, he's on top of the baseline, he's Novak light, he's hitting the piss out of the ball, but things started to drop as he got more tired. but that that is something that he will be able to build up in time when he gets more opportunities in going deep in these five set or longer format matches and grand slams, which he just doesn't have the he's older than Fonseca, but Fonseca has more experience in these scenarios right now, time on tour, in the legs, yada yada yada.

Torrey Hawkins (45:49.464)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (45:58.638)
Right. Yep. Yep. Right.

Right.

And and and it went five sets. So, you know, you you could make the argument that it's only gonna get better for him as well going forward. He hasn't if you had to if you did a stat on number of top tens played, total sets, right, number of events played, I bet Fonseca just this year edged him out on playing that high of a level and playing that many sets against those kind of players. And I think that also s speaks to a lot.

Alvin Owusu (46:10.706)
Alvin Owusu (46:35.699)
Yeah, and that's a great that's a great segue because this is what's happening to Fonseca this year, like up to coming out coming out of last year, he wins his wins two ATP events last year, finishes the year strong, little injury towards the back of the year, but now it's like, okay, if you're and you mentioned this, I think you did a you did a fantastic job of pointing this out early in the year. It's like before you can start to beat top ten players, you need to start playing them first, right? And if you're not going deep enough in events consistently enough, you won't meet enough of them.

get your to get a feel for that level. This year alone, right, Fonseca has for the first time played center, Indian Wells, played Carlos, Miami, Monte Carlo played Zverev, and now he's got Novak in a few a few hours, right? So this is the the result is not important because I don't know it. Well this version of me doesn't know it. But he's getting now he's getting the looks right so

Torrey Hawkins (47:06.252)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (47:31.916)
Right. That's right.

Alvin Owusu (47:34.056)
And he's getting the he's not only getting the looks, but he's getting the a a look at the moment as well. What does it mean to come up against a a world number one or a four-mone world number one or a multi-time Grand Slam champion, the the GOAT? Zverev has been in three or four Grand Slam finals. So like that level, that moment, that spotlight, that also takes something to get used to. And he's done it all in one thousands or Grand Slam. So this is this is fantastic for him, regardless of how this match goes.

Torrey Hawkins (47:45.528)
Right. That's right.

Alvin Owusu (48:03.504)
you can't fake those reps.

Torrey Hawkins (48:06.509)
No.

And and it's a different learning curve, isn't it? You know, the the the not just the pop, the response, the they won't miss that ball. They won't let you off the hook. You know, you will pay for that early break, you know, and so on. they will, you know, they won't break down, right? And there there's so many things to it that a normal player will, you know, and and they'll hurt you. You'll do your best play just to wrong foot them and they still have a shot. You know, their their can opener will go deep in the corner. There it won't it won't be a floater. You know what I mean? So, you know, there's been a play.

Alvin Owusu (48:09.31)
Absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (48:37.344)
Alvin, I want to speak to this and I'll let you move on. How many times now have you seen? This is just technically the third going on the fourth round. How many times have you seen the drop shot get B reflex volid to the open court? Probably 30, 40, 50 times so far, right? But between all the matches. Now, what usually happens, and this is just a this is just a microcosm of the whole thing, typically the first drop shot gets you, right?

Then the guy hits a duff off of the drop shot, right? And then the guy kind of makes the drop shot and either wrong foot you goes back cross, does something, waits you out to go line or go cross, right? And then there's a little trickery around the net, right? You're seeing drop shot one made, drop shot get made.

Shot off of the drop shot get reflex volley and now we're into and shot off of the drop shot get that was volleyed is coming back open court stick volley across the corner. I'm getting at two, three shots past.

Said drop shot, which the drop shot itself may have been hit at the right time, and you were nine feet behind the baseline, trucking to get there, picking it up off your shoe tops. My point being, this is the new normal, and you put if that's just one shot, one tactic, a very used tactic, by the way, then imagine that against a top ten player. Imagine that.

against a who's gonna hit a better drop shot and a better heavy ball to you might be 12 feet behind. And now they're coming in the drop shot reading you to say, okay, you only have two options.

Torrey Hawkins (50:24.556)
And I'm taking one away from you. Okay, now what do you do? It's not like you can have a good lucky drop shot get and and surprise them. That top ten, especially that top five and top three, they don't get surprised often. They've seen just about everything. And you know that as you're trucking this ball down and you're trying to s you're in about foot nine of your slide with your racket extended, right? And you're like,

Alvin Owusu (50:42.961)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (50:46.136)
Dang it, wrong side. He guessed right. No, he didn't guess right. He read right. And he's there looking at you. And so I say that to say you can't, you point about you can't fake that. You not only can't fake that, you have rarely seen that. So to get that rep early and to understand that, then what did he do in your match? Car Center did not have a drop shot until Alcaraz exposed it on it two years ago. And now Center's got one of the better drop shots on the tour. Same thing.

Alvin Owusu (51:10.495)
Servit of Olian too.

Torrey Hawkins (51:11.854)
And the and the volume as well. So my point is, even amongst the top, you kind of take a little something from the guy that from the guy who's maybe a little better you at the time. And so now I feel like the next gen of things is starting to assimilate pretty quickly on that. And it just shows, man, it's going it's the the the level has is raising in front of our eyes right now.

Alvin Owusu (51:29.887)
So let's let's continue down that path because you know, n the evolution of these players, like the drop shot used to be a point finisher, and now it is like it's damn near a transition ball. Like in some in some way, shape, or form. It might be a setup, it might be a setup for the transition ball, which then gets you to the finish three shots later. So that's that's just more shots, right? That's more shots, that's more running, that's more movement. You we finished our last podcast and you you raised the question about

Torrey Hawkins (51:37.685)
my goodness.

Torrey Hawkins (51:41.187)
It might just it might just be a set of ball, you know what I mean?

Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (51:51.714)
That's

Alvin Owusu (51:59.853)
you we were talking about h these injuries and these withdrawals and and is the schedule too long? Like are these players you you you you you laid out this idea there should be a maximum amount of events that players are allowed to play. And I said that I would answer with my perspective and I'm going to now. I don't think it's the amount of events that's the issue. I think it is the the players who are playing the game

Have evolved so much.

As athletes on one hand, but as humans, we have not evolved that much. When I I I I equate it to like a car, right? We've upgraded the tires on the car. We've upgraded the steering wheel. We've upgraded the the the engine, right? Their players are bigger, they are faster, they hit the ball harder, the technology is

better. Like we've got these super light rackets that allow these big guys to swing from their heels and you've got this polyester strain that makes everything dive, right? Returns the serves look like damn near first serves at their like, you know, at this point in but the the bolts of the car are still the same. Like our tendons have not evolved, right? Our our soft tissue has not evolved.

Torrey Hawkins (53:12.472)
Right. Right. Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (53:18.972)
So we are still effectively the same humans, but these humans are now doing more and the constructs of the court have not changed either. Right? If it takes me two, three steps to get to that ball outright, that ball out wide, yet it takes this guy one and a half steps, right? It's just gonna make the point much longer. Right? It's harder to get by. So the points get longer. They're getting more demanding. So I don't think it's necessarily the amount of tournaments, it's the type of tennis that we're playing that is causing

Torrey Hawkins (53:35.971)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (53:46.798)
Mm.

Alvin Owusu (53:48.595)
the break the breakdown of these players. And I'll go back to something you and I talked about twenty some odd years ago, how you see more you were seeing more a ankle injuries with our junior players at in the mid 2000s than you had seen previously. And you you raised the idea that it's like these kids don't play outside anymore. They they specialize in tennis so soon that the other dynamic parts of being an athlete are underdeveloped and they're getting

Torrey Hawkins (54:12.792)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (54:18.226)
Too good at hitting tennis balls and moving in a certain way that they haven't had the bodies haven't had enough time and reps developing in other ways. It's, I mean, we are 20 years from that conversation. Hell, the the Kwame's and the Hodars and the Fonsecas of the worlds weren't even born when we had this conversation, but they haven't had time to develop as athletes completely. But they're doing some things that are testing the limits of an athletic, of a human being.

Torrey Hawkins (54:27.106)
Hundred percent.

Torrey Hawkins (54:34.831)
Or even born yet. Yeah. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (54:48.072)
body, I think that is the issue we're running up against. if the course is not getting any bigger and the course and the and the points are only getting longer, then I don't see a way around this unless we start developing our tennis players differently much earlier. That is my view on that.

Torrey Hawkins (55:06.625)
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's a good view. I I it's and and I and I like it. It's well it's well it's well taken. I I had an orthopedic

Alvin Owusu (55:11.432)
It's A View. It's A View.

Torrey Hawkins (55:18.29)
Dad was coaching his daughter and he is was mentioning to me, just to your point, there's a huge spike in in ACL injuries amongst girls. he said specifically between the ages of about 13 and about 15. And they've traced it back. He's done his he did his research on this is years ago, this is probably 20 years ago as well, which we first had the idea.

Alvin Owusu (55:27.976)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (55:40.578)
They, girls in particular, you know, not only are they gonna mature faster physically, they typically, typically don't do a lot of outdoor sports, sports in general at a young age. So they go from playing with their, you know, friends, right? Indoors or in the backyard, whatever. The point isn't indoor, outdoor, it's playing a game, doing a sport. Very, very static was his point, up until the time they're about eleven or twelve. And then they get in what's that?

Alvin Owusu (55:50.088)
Right. Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (56:07.1)
They start playing volleyball. And they start playing volleyball. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (56:10.606)
And then they start playing volleyball or or lacrosse, right? Or or soccer and or tennis.

And now you're in a sport that requires a ton of movement, right? And you haven't established movement patterns. You haven't established reps. You haven't established, you know, the your body has not, to your point, hasn't evolved. Or, or in this case, what's the word adapted, I think is another word I'm working for. Adapted for what it has, the stresses that are about to be placed on it. And so that to me says, you know, you have to, we have to do something a little better from a macro standpoint. We gotta have, we gotta do a much better job of getting our athletes.

Alvin Owusu (56:31.751)
Adapted. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (56:46.224)
Better adjusted or adapted because they're gonna have that stress put on them. And then from a micro level, we now have to make sure that the players that are there have to be ready. Because, to my point, if they are gonna play that volume, if we are gonna let them play everything that they want to sign up for, their body man, you're the physio might be your second pasture coach, and it already already is, but I mean like your prehab physio, you know, might need to be not just your getting in shape, your he need there needs to be.

a long-term athletic development plan in place to keep you healthy literally from you know from the

from from the extremities all the way in. Because you will not play a full year if you are not stress tested, you know, especially in in in at the joints. You know what mean? Ankles, you know, ankles, knees, elbows, wrists. I mean, because that's where we're some of the biggest injuries, all at at the joints, you know, specifically on on the clay cord season when you do so much more moving on a on a very on a very dynamic surface.

Alvin Owusu (57:49.598)
Yep. absolutely. I think that's a good place to to stop. Put a pin in it for today. there's a lot of tournament happening. There's a lot of tournament happening right now. Hodar just took the first set off of Mickelson and a tiebreaker. So don't want to get too far down into the the what's going on in the tennis because this will be out of date. But I think this is a really healthy conversation for us to have. supersedes this tournament. But yeah, that was fun. So, TH, I leave tonight. France.

Torrey Hawkins (58:03.534)
No doubt.

Torrey Hawkins (58:17.442)
Good for you, Alvin. You'll you'll be joining the scor scorching heat. I wanna know how hot it actually is. It's rarely that hot in Paris, so this this will be a shock to me.

Alvin Owusu (58:18.558)
France, here I come.

Alvin Owusu (58:22.622)
Bro it

By the time I actually get to Paris, I won't get to so we're going down to we'll be in the Burgundy region for the first half of the week. By the time I get to Paris, highs of sixty three, my friend. So Yannick Y Yannick just needed to make it through the weekend, man. He just He just needed to make it through the weekend. It's gonna be it's gonna be raining and cold, and you know who you know Indoor Center is undefeated, so it's like it

Torrey Hawkins (58:34.786)
No, it's gonna it's gonna turn French cold again. He mistimed it by by four days.

Torrey Hawkins (58:49.556)
my God, no doubt. No doubt. That's all he needed. And and and does that not bode well for one thirty-eight years. Is he 38, 39 now? One one one 39 year old who might prefer climate control himself at this at this tender old age. So hey, the whole the whole thing's wide open right now. I mean, I can't wait, but but hey, it have a safe flight and and say hello to my good friend.

Alvin Owusu (58:58.854)
I think it just turned thirty nine the earlier this week.

Torrey Hawkins (59:16.254)
Charles de Gaulle for me.

Alvin Owusu (59:18.301)
my god. my let's just say I have to I have to catch I have to take an Uber to the to the train station and it's it's tight and I'm just like the CDG gods just come on man just give me give me one I just I just need one just be kind to me but yeah with that with that being the case put a pin in it I'm Alvin that's Tori Best three we're out