Why Serena Williams Can Still Be Dangerous on Grass

Serena Williams returns to Wimbledon at 44 with obvious physical questions—but also with advantages few comeback players possess. Alvin Owusu and Anastasia examine why her serve, return positioning, first-strike instincts and accumulated grass-court intelligence could still make her dangerous without requiring anything close to her prime form.

Her prospects may depend less on ranking than on matchup. A favorable early opponent could allow Serena to shorten points, establish rhythm and let the pressure of the occasion work in her favor. A composed mover who extends exchanges and refuses to play Serena’s reputation, however, could expose the limits of the comeback immediately.

The episode also considers whether Wimbledon should pursue an instant blockbuster or allow Serena’s story to develop through the draw, before turning to Aryna Sabalenka’s grass-court credentials and the assumption that completing the career Grand Slam is inevitable.

Transcript

Alvin Owusu (00:00.73)
And welcome to another edition of the best three podcasts. I am Alvin, and that is Anastasia from Grounds Pass. How are we doing today?

Anastasia (00:10.232)
We're good. We're good. It's what is it? It's Wednesday. It's almost time for the Wimbledon draw to drop. Wimbledon to start. I'm excited.

Alvin Owusu (00:21.174)
Are you? Are you are you excited? I I feel I have this thing with Wimbledon and I love it. I don't love grass court tennis, so I'm kind of I'm of t of two minds when it comes to yeah, it's it's it's kinda my it's kinda my my thing. Not a shtick, but I I don't love grass court tennis. It's just me.

Anastasia (00:31.03)
Really?

Anastasia (00:40.344)
I think for me, I think first just aesthetically, like I've just been we've been watching like players roll around in dirt for months. And then there is something about just that fresh green on your screen and you just and everyone's wearing white and you're just like, Yes, it's summer, you know?

Alvin Owusu (00:51.298)
Yep. That's true.

Anastasia (01:06.54)
So yes, there is something about that, but I I do get your point. Once we start with the women it's different. I actually love watching the women play on grass. But by the time you get to the men and it's like we're on the second set that went to a tiebreak, you're like, God, one more one more to go.

Alvin Owusu (01:25.548)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I g I I can I I can be of two minds about it in that the contrast between all the red dirt we got for eight eight weeks, I guess it was, and then the quick flip right after French Open on to grass and then it's a very it's a nice truncated season though. Like, you it's only three weeks of of warm up events and then two weeks of Wimbledon. It's very quick. I like that. but yeah, we're we're about to get into it. And I think so today is Wednesday.

Where two days before the Wimbledon draw is gonna be announced and or drawn. And we have this thing that we've been living with for the last two weeks or so, which is the the I'll call it the Serena of Things, right? It is it's very well documented that she is she back and she's played a few doubles events and she's playing in she's playing doubles with her sister in Wimbledon and she's also playing singles. I went on the record a couple weeks ago.

Anastasia (01:59.285)
Yes.

Alvin Owusu (02:23.884)
that I I thought it was it was only logical that she was going to be playing singles. Like we're talking there's one wild card available left for women and and she's on site. She's practicing and and her her coach is is a friend of the pod. We've known him for for years, Jameer Hans Jenkins and he posted something on one of his stories and it's just like the practice court. they were practicing at Wimbledon. And just the the targets they had set up on the court I'm like

Anastasia (02:30.315)
Really?

Alvin Owusu (02:53.708)
Yo, those are singles targets. That's that this they're doing a singles drill. This is not this is not what are we what are we talking about, people? What are we talking about? so with that being the case, what is what has Serena World been like for you for the last few weeks? Serena Watch, if you will.

Anastasia (03:02.59)
Okay, okay.

Anastasia (03:08.781)
it it's very it's been very interesting. I've been of two minds of it since the beginning. Since we got the news in October that she was on the doping testing list. for the longest time. Like once we first heard Serena is on in the doping pool and she's getting tested, I thought, okay, great. She's coming back.

But it is to help Venus retire. Like that was my thing. Like I was like, they're gonna play the US Open and that's what's gonna happen. As time went on, people started making rumblings like, she's gonna come back. I heard someone say she was gonna come back to play the Miami Open. I was like, No, I don't think that's gonna happen. and then it was like slowly Wimbledon and stuff, and I just it it beg for me.

I just kept I was like, why? Like, why are you coming back to do to play tennis? And I was sort of I fell into the lane of, yes, she's gonna help Venus retire, but you know, she's an athlete, she can still play. Being around athletes, what I've realized is that fire sometimes, it just never goes away. And if you feel like you have the ability to play and be competitive, why not just go for it? And

For me, I've always been someone when when a player says they're retiring, evolving away from the sport, I'm always like, okay, great, go live your best life. Go, you know, be with your kids and be happy. I've never liked the whole return thing. I just don't get it. I'm just like, but you left. Why are you coming back? Like, why are you changing your mind? That sort of thing. But over the last few weeks.

Alvin Owusu (04:47.192)
Yeah.

Anastasia (05:05.713)
since she first played at Queens and then Berlin. The one thing that has changed my mind and made me sort of like accept this return and be really happy for people is that so many people are so excited to see Serena live for the first time. So many people have been fans of her for so long and I think the messages I've been getting from people is like, my God, I saw her live for the first time. I never thought this would ever happen.

It's kind of changed my mind to this

return in a way and now I'm seeing it through the eyes of her fans rather than trying to be analytical about it and be like, why is she coming back? You know, I'm just like she has her reasons, whatever they are, that's great. But I've been enjoying people enjoying Serena Live for the first time.

Alvin Owusu (06:04.962)
That's I think that's a really good way to look at it. there are there are two parts to I guess any athlete, but an athlete of the stature of Serena Williams, these two parts are they're amplified, on both sides, right? So you have the the tennis player, the on court stuff, and she w what is it t was what's the count? Is it twelve and twelve and ten? It's twenty is it thirty, twenty eight, no twenty four, twenty four slams, or she at twenty two? Twenty something.

Anastasia (06:32.91)
no, she's at twenty she's at twenty two.

Alvin Owusu (06:36.142)
Twenty two. Six, six, then ten. Okay. Yeah, twenty-two. So there is there is that, right? And a great champion. So people start to think about the tennis and what she might be able to do on the tennis court in this in this particular comeback. And and my co-host Tori and I, we talked about in probably at length of like what does and what how does she fare against the top thirty in the in the world, like anyone who might be seated at Wimbledon. And that's one conversation. And I think

Anastasia (06:37.355)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (07:03.938)
Tennis is interesting because you can look at her her career and her body of work from the macro, the twenty the twenty-two Grand Slams, but and then many more doubles. But then you also can look at the micro as like she also had some ups and downs. She did take losses to to not not the champions of our sport, right? The Harmony Tans of our sport. She is she's spent time outside of the top one hundred. she's gotten injured. Like it's not like she's been perfect all the time. I think her career

almost looks like a a mix of Agassiz and and Djokovic kind of like with these time away from the sport and then back and then dominance and so there's that. But then there's also like Serena Williams the icon. And I think we got a we got a decent dose of that, like a an early dose of that last summer when Venus was playing in the in the States. And people I didn't recognize because they're they're fairly close to my age. Like Serena and I are only a year apart. two years apart, sorry.

So like as I looked at her career and I was thinking about this podcast, I was like, a lot of this a lot of the time I spent like in fifteen to twenty-five, we were both fifteen to twenty five. And so but I was like playing junior tennis and playing college tennis, and then I started teaching and it was like I wasn't really paying that much attention to her. But later later on in her career, when she kind of came back with with Patrick, and that's when I started to appreciate her her

her brilliance and then in the last kind of wave, like you know, when she made those four grand seminals, as a parent, my her and my daughter share a birthday actually. So it's like seeing seeing her as she means more to more people for a variety of different reasons. that gets me excited about the beginning of this journey of however long it's gonna be if it's gonna be

Anastasia (09:00.738)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (09:01.856)
a week. if it's gonna be a summer, I don't know. But I'm I'm I'm here for it. I'm here for it.

Anastasia (09:09.311)
Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I for sure it's going to the US Open, but I think that's it. Like we're not gonna see, you know, Serena Williams go play Asiak people. Like she's she's not gonna go on the Asian swing. but I mean who knows? Will she play Australia next year? Will she, you know, do like one four? Who knows what happened?

Alvin Owusu (09:20.386)
Right. Let's be for real.

Anastasia (09:33.847)
But again, I think for me, it really is seeing these fans like so excited. we got a voice note from someone who planned a trip to Berlin, to the WTA tournament in Berlin. And she had planned it a year in advance. Like that's just how she plans all her trips.

Can you imagine like planning a trip a year in advance and it comes around and you're like you're going to see Serena courtside? She was she was so stoked. She was so happy. And I love that for tennis fans. And it also, for tennis in general. Like, I where did I see this? Like, it's just popping up everywhere. Sports Center. Good morning, America.

Her being back in tennis puts tennis on the map. It has obviously been growing in popularity, obviously, but she can take it to just a different place where you just have random Joe Schmoes or like Serena's bla back playing tennis. And, you know, they've never spoken about tennis in years. so I think there's a lot of good of her coming back. something I've also been thinking about because you mentioned it.

Our friend Lucy Deuce, she's she used to be on Blacksman Global, but she's now sort of gone out on her own. And she mentioned a while ago, she made a video where it was very interesting to me because a lot of fans, especially a lot of tennis fans who've been fans forever, you know, they always go, well, no one's as good as Serena was. Or no, you know, Serena was the best, and who are these new players and stuff. And

There's a part of me that does want to see that competition. Like she better draw Sabalenka first round. Or or she or you know, y maybe not Sabalenka let's you know, can you imagine if she drew Coco Goff first round? Cause you do want to see that comparison. And I mentioned this on on Ground Pass our podcast, and I was kind of like, Look, it's not a fair comparison because she is 44 years old, like the you know, she's not playing

Alvin Owusu (11:27.34)
Is that what okay?

Anastasia (11:51.539)
At the level we don't know. We'll see. Don't I don't think she's playing at the level at her height when she was much younger. So it's not really a fair sort of like apples to apples, you know, is Serena at her prime better than Sabalenka or Coco or or Anismova or whoever you want to put up there. But can you imagine if she plays one of them and wins? I mean, come on. That's

Alvin Owusu (12:17.778)
yeah, I can. I can actually because it's yeah, it's one, it's not it's not fantasy tennis, right? This isn't a video game where you get to like pull out like unlock a code and get the greatest of all time, like but that she is like the best version of herself. No, she's the real version of herself right now. And I think that is a that is very different than the looking at the totality of her career and all that she's amassed, right? And that one match, you're not playing against all of that, you're playing against this person and

While I do feel like yeah, she's she's forty-four. That's very real. a lot of what I what I'm thinking about at this juncture is what I saw in twenty twenty two at her last US Open she still got to the third round and did not look great. Like she was I mean, Serena's always like, you know, she's a stronger, she's a very tall woman, a b she's a big woman, and like so her being able to re

To reduce body mass is like that's a big deal. She'll move a lot better, she'll feel a lot better. and she wasn't practicing as much in 2022. Like she's been training for almost I don't know. When did Hans move down there? He moved down to so her coach, and I I picked this up on Andy's podcast. her coach lives in Charlotte and trains with plays Dingles with Andy, and Andy

let it out like last week after the you know the Serena stuff was announced that like yeah, he left Charlotte in September and moved to Florida. Like so Andy's known about this for a long time, but so September was yeah, it's that was nine, ten months ago. Like so now she's been focusing training for that long. obviously Alicia Parks is out there. She's been training with Jesse Levine. it it's

Anastasia (13:52.055)
Wow.

Alvin Owusu (14:09.634)
Sh I think she's gonna be ready. She's gonna be as ready as she can be. And I think a ready Serena at 44 is a probably a better Serena than she was 40 at the time in 2022. I I don't expect her to win the tournament, but I I can judge her as a more savvy player than the vast majority of the women on the tour right now. And I I mentioned this in our one of our previous podcasts.

Anastasia (14:21.662)
Yeah. Yeah, I I would agree.

Alvin Owusu (14:38.134)
She hasn't played a lot of them, but none of them have been under the press, not many of them have been under the pressure of playing Serena. Like this is a this is a whole it's a whole thing unto itself. like Radakadu has, like Emma beat her some years ago. Sadalinkus played her, obviously Svidolina, like there's a there's a bunch of them that have played her. But this is this is gonna be fun. The draw is gonna be

Anastasia (15:06.327)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (15:08.116)
I'm I'm so excited. I'm more excited for the draw than the tournament to start. Like this is this is gonna be insane. Insane.

Anastasia (15:14.701)
I've been thinking, I'm sort of like, I'm like, because I think I'm not sure, but I think the draw is gonna be 4 a.m. or 5 a.m. Eastern. and I literally have been like, do I wake up and just watch this thing live? Because I am because she's a wild card. She could draw anybody.

And I just want the gods to be good to us, the draw gods, if you're listening, just give us some spice, please. Just give us a good, you know, because you're right in the sense that, you know, people like Fidelina, Sabalenka have played her. But I didn't think that.

The aura of Serena and the pressure of playing her would be as evident immediately. And you saw it in her first match. She played against it was Aaron Routcliffe and Nicole Melikar Martinez. Those are elite doubles players. Like, that is not just whoever.

You know, I just dropped in, whatever. Those are elite doubles players. And you could see the tension and the just like pressure and, you know, nervousness in them. I was like, what are you doing? This is not ten this is not the tennis you play, you know, Aaron Routlip. Like, what is happening? So

It was interesting to see, and then it was actually really interesting to see the contrast because Erin Routcliffe but with a different partner got to play her again in Berlin. And you could just tell Aaron was like, no, no, not twice in a row. I I will I will not take that from you. So that was interesting. So I do think there's a huge element of the sort of pressure, nervousness that whoever is playing against Serena is gonna need to.

Alvin Owusu (17:11.063)
Yeah.

Anastasia (17:26.273)
Handle in some way.

Alvin Owusu (17:29.644)
Yeah, so I mean you know that that was really interesting because she played she played with the same partner two weeks in a row, but Serena had a different partner. so I I I'm pretty sure she played with the same partner. Did she really Okay, okay. so the double the doubles thing is interesting because like while we have our doubles specialists, I still like you know, I've contended this always since my junior days, college, coaching. If you give them enough time

Anastasia (17:37.355)
No, Aaron had a different partner.

Yeah, she did, yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (17:57.751)
The two best players, you have the two best players on the court, those they will win. They will they will generally win. And I felt like with that particular matchup, like you've got Serena and a top ten player. Like, I don't care if they've never played doubles together before. That's gonna be that's gonna be tough to deal with. And so but it but it's it's different. It's very different. the

The experience of facing Serena though will I think be the same. And I like that she's I kinda like that she's not playing any warm-up events or any warm-up matches. Because with every time that someone gets a chance to see her, that like that aura like it it it comes down a little bit throughout the entire locker room. So like right now nobody knows what to expect. I mean I'm sure there's been some other players that she's hit with outside of outside of Alicia, but yeah, I feel like

the s the surprise element, the mystique element is on her side. I'm I've been thinking about this and I'm curious to get your opinion of like for everyone involved, what is the what's the best place for her to land in the draw? Like you mentioned like playing playing Sabalinka or Coco or Iga in the first round would be wild, but also they could also probably beat her like two and two. That could happen too and then it's no more fun.

Right? Then we gotta wait five days or whatever it is until the women's doubles start. Like I want I'm gonna draw this out a little bit. Like give me like give me someone like 70 in the world. Like get like that's like that's that's where I wanted to land. Or maybe wild card versus qualifier. Like that'd be that'd be great too. Not Harmony Tan though, because Harmony Tan, I think she did qualify.

Anastasia (19:18.423)
Yeah.

Anastasia (19:37.985)
No. Yeah, it's funny because I think it also just depends on the player. Like, I I literally think, you know, I think I'm I'm making the joke. It was like, if she draws Sabalenka, I feel like she could beat Sabalenka, only because Sabalenka would have a meltdown, you know, in in her current state that she's kind of like been playing as. so

You almost want to be careful with it because, like you, yes, it would suck if it was like literally like a two and two, and then you wait for the doubles and you're just like, okay. So if she could get a couple rounds, that would be lovely. But I think the sort of player that would be a problem for Serena is almost a younger kind of like European who doesn't really care. Like if she plays Maya Swolinska.

I mean, I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, Maya would be like you know, she's like, I'm from Poland, I'm twenty, I'm gonna beat you. Like that, you know, she doesn't care. Versus Coco Goff. There's tension there. There would be nervousness there. Even if I would say Coco Goff is the better athlete, you're sort of like, would she win though? You don't know.

Alvin Owusu (20:40.27)
That's gonna be tough.

Anastasia (21:05.277)
So I I don't know. I think it's tough to know what what could happen. You almost someone I think I was I think it was the tennis podcast who were like, wouldn't it be cool if she drew like Laura Siegmund in the first round? That would be horrible.

Alvin Owusu (21:22.286)
That'd be horrible. That'd be horrible. No, no, that would be horrible. It would be horrible. 'Cause like there's there's some there's some things here, like okay, so the the grass court of things, right? Like one, not many like not not many players are great on grass, right? You don't get a lot of reps on it, especially if you're not from, you know, that part of Europe. like some players like I play two crass court events a year and that's it. like she's won the thing, what like

Anastasia (21:33.355)
Yeah.

Anastasia (21:43.393)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (21:51.289)
Seven times? Like I like like Serena knows how to play on grass. And so but like so does so does Laura Siegman. And like so that's that's kind of a problem and Laura's older. like she's not and she's and Laura's well, we know what Laura is. but there's also the the tennis of it, like I don't think she's going to do well with someone who's going to make her move or who can who can move well also.

Like someone who is underpowered might be a little more I don't know. It it it's tough to say. Like Coco Coco

Coco's not great on grass. And Coco has a tough time finishing, like going through people. Ergo, it's gonna be tough to it'd be tough to with that skill set to beat Serena. Like that's the I'm not saying Coco would would lose to Serena. I'm just saying like someone who cannot put up 40 winners in a match or just not miss balls. Like you need kind of the extreme. look at a someone like a Sabalinko or even go back to someone like a

Anastasia (22:38.189)
Mm.

Alvin Owusu (23:04.312)
Can't can't think the name right now, but yeah, it's it's all very speculative and it's all kind of all over the place. But considering we don't have Carlos Acaraz, I'm glad we have Serena Williams.

Anastasia (23:11.893)
Yeah. I mean who do you

Anastasia (23:17.643)
You know what? That's a big that is a really big point because I didn't think we're gonna go back to the draw thing, because I do wanna ask you what you think her like who you would want her to draw first, but I did not think not having Carlos Alcaraz at Rolling Garros was gonna be too much of a big deal. Like it was a bummer, but I was like, but you got center, you got everybody.

That tournament needed Carlos Alcaraz. It was brutal after a while. There were some, you know, moments and stuff, but you're just like, damn, where is just that sparkle? Where is that little jeunesse qua? Where is it? And it was Carlos Alcaraz, and he wasn't there. Thank God Wimbledon has Serena Williams because that's what we're gonna need. We're gonna need some sort of sparkle, some sort of je ne sais quoi.

You don't know what's going on. You know. Remember when Carlos like played that five set match for no reason in his first round of Wimbledon last year against Fonini? Like that's what you need. You you you need that sort of like are you serio are you being for real right now? Like that's what you need. And Serena, I think, will be there to provide it. Because we're all gonna be like, what's happening? What's going on? And I think

Alvin Owusu (24:28.47)
Yeah, yeah. I guess my nini.

Anastasia (24:45.505)
having her as this sort of entertainment fun element of the tournament, is gonna be great. Like even just looking on social media and seeing how other players are reacting to her. Like you're just like, yeah, like that's the sort of that's that's what I wanna see. but for you, who do you what what would you want for her in the first round?

Alvin Owusu (25:11.682)
I I need a I want like I I want a match she can win. I think playing actually a young American, like someone I'll use like a Peyton Stearns, maybe like a McCartney Kessler, like those are win a bull matches. like players who at their best and at Serena's best, Serena would beat them anyways. But even if you take fifteen years off of Serena's best.

they would also potentially freak out. Like that's I want I want like one of those matchups. I don't want anything blockbuster. and this is coming from not maybe not a tennis standpoint, but maybe from a, you know, i here in this tennis media space, we we we do we get a lot of eyeballs on us during the Grand Slams. Like I don't need I don't need her playing Coco in the first round. Coco gets enough eyeballs. I I need them away from each other. I want

Anastasia (26:05.709)
Yeah. Opposite sides would draw.

Alvin Owusu (26:09.94)
I yeah, I want I want this to matter. I wanna see some momentum here. I wanna see some momentum. so yeah, give me I would even let me just I'll even pull up the WTA rankings here. Let me see what I can what I can find quickly. But I think that's that's what I want. And I think ESPN I'm not afraid to say it. I feel like ESPN having the rights. I feel like they'll I I believe in some backdoor backdoor deals. I believe. I I do believe.

Anastasia (26:27.638)
Yeah.

Anastasia (26:33.641)
You're like Can we just make sure it's per Peyton Stearns? We already saw what Venus did. Like let's just do that part two. Let's go.

Alvin Owusu (26:44.664)
I think that's a really good facsimile of what I think could happen. And like and this is not I mean, no no destructive Venus, like this is not this ain't Venus. This is Serena. This is this is different. Yeah, maybe even like a like like Katarinas and Yaakova is is ranked thirty five in the world right now. Like that that's not a bad matchup. That's that's not a bad matchup. Krajikova, horrible matchup. Like I feel like Barbora would

Anastasia (26:49.078)
Yeah.

Anastasia (26:55.787)
Right.

Anastasia (27:10.614)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (27:12.758)
would take Serena down strong, I I would put money on barbora in that match.

Anastasia (27:15.337)
like without even flinching. Without like see that's the thing. You don't want a player who would n would not be affected by her aura. Cause they are just some players that will just be like, I don't care. Like, great. Cool. Cheer for her. It's fine. I'm a win and I'm gonna go home and have my strawberry pasta.

Alvin Owusu (27:20.31)
Yeah, yeah.

Anastasia (27:43.251)
That's what ego would do. Ego would be like, it's fine, it's okay. You know? So I think for the drama, you're right. An Ashlyn Kruger, maybe, you know? Something like that.

Alvin Owusu (27:47.042)
Yeah. Like

Alvin Owusu (27:57.263)
Kruger. Yeah. That'd be a that'd be a good one. That would be a good one. Or Maya joint. Like, I feel like Maya's been having a horrible year as well. Like I feel like that's like a that's almost she's young. She's not having the best year. Yeah, that's the one you want to play against. but like not Katie McNally, who is playing good ball right now and is is a gamer and is going to be attacking. Like that's that's what you don't want.

Anastasia (28:14.412)
Yeah.

Anastasia (28:25.131)
Yeah. I don't know. It's

Alvin Owusu (28:25.474)
But yeah, it's it's it's going to make it's going to make for an interesting draw.

Anastasia (28:29.175)
Here is a sort of philos philosophical question for you because as we sort of like talk about this and kind of like put put up names and all of this stuff, because it takes me back to the sentiment of, you know, the past was way better than what is happening now. Tennis back when Serena was playing was so much

at a the level was so high compared to what is happening right now. If Serena comes out and beats all these girls that we're talking about, does that amplify those people who think that way, that tennis now is just not at the same level or 'cause we see these debates all the time where and I just always have thought it's such an unfair comparison, you know.

Technology has changed, the players are different, the way of playing is different, courts are different, balls are everything is it's so hard to make it equal to do that sort of comparison. But do you think that sort of thing then amplifies if she gets to the third round, fourth round?

Alvin Owusu (29:50.895)
I mean we don't have to go that far back for the example for the comp here because twenty twenty two US Open, she did beat the number two ranked player in the world effectively with no practice. Right? She she did beat is it Contivate. She beat Annette Contivate, like in the in the third second round. In the second round. So and she was two in the world.

Anastasia (30:01.941)
Yeah.

Anastasia (30:08.789)
Annette. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (30:16.826)
I do I want to live in a world where Serena Williams at 44 wins Wimbledon? No, I don't. That would be that'd be that would be bad for that'd be bad for tennis, actually. I think it's really interesting in that we think about Serena as this thing, but when you look back at her career, like there were, you know, there's four separate spaces of her career where she did as much in a five year run as any one of these girls on tour.

have or have done in their career, right? She there was a space where she won six slams and then got hurt and went away. And then she came back and she won another six slams and then she got hurt. Or and came back. And then she won ten slams. So like those were all different times in tennis when she did it, like as well. Like there was the capriotis and the celluses that she was dealing with. And then and then at some point there was the the Hennens and the and the Kleisters she was dealing with. And then a little bit later,

add in whoever you want to add in there. But if she were to come back and

beat players I I think the comparison is not necessarily that tennis is so much better now 'cause I think on the whole it is. There are more good players. Like there I think the top twenty is better, kind of top to bottom, which we've seen in you know, we've had six straight different winners of women's Grand Slams. Like I think that is a testament to how good tennis is right now on the women's side. but the other side of the coin is like okay then is anyone great?

And I think that is where you start to have the argument of like, does greatness mean the same now as it did then? And Serena was great. Venus was great. Kim Kleiser's to a certain extent was great. Justine Ennan was great. is then it then it's I think present day, I think this this where Sabalinka is right now in her career is a perfect time to do the comparison. It's like, okay, is Sabalinka great, or she

Alvin Owusu (32:27.766)
Is she really good? Does she belong in that conversation or is she really good? Because she has won four Grand Slamms, but they've all been on hardcore, right? Serena's won Serena won three on her worst surface.

Anastasia (32:40.897)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (32:47.402)
And and did the career grand slam twice. So I don't know. It it makes it a very like we're talking about very, very different things here. but I'm it's the great versus good conversation that I'm actually interested in.

Anastasia (33:01.493)
Okay. So that just brings me right back to Serena Williams, Arena Sabalanka first round. Go.

Alvin Owusu (33:13.058)
We don't want that. We we don't trust me, we don't want that.

Anastasia (33:15.669)
What look, I just listened to what you said and that's what you said.

Alvin Owusu (33:23.032)
That is what I said. It's it's like okay, okay, fair. Okay. Okay. God bless. That'd be horrible. That would be so bad.

Anastasia (33:29.069)
I want to s I wanna see that so bad. Like there's a part of me that I just need that to happen. I need her to play because in a lot of ways, they are the same person. Like if you if you wanna just like look at Arena Sabolanka and Serena Williams, the characters that they are.

Not saying players, I'm not saying, you know, whatever. The characters that they are. Loud personalities. Super strong tennis players. Just like you hear them before you see them and you know it's them. You know? That needs to happen first round. You know. I'm I just yeah. Can I mean that is that is that is the if you were gonna make an ESPN commercial.

Alvin Owusu (34:16.995)
Huh.

Anastasia (34:26.509)
WWE style, like match like the lights are firing and l I can see the commercial now. Tiger versus Serena. Like, my god. What you could you could you could just take that that match and pay per view it. People would buy that sh people would buy it.

Alvin Owusu (34:47.278)
Mmm. Mmm. Would that be the would that be the would that be the most I'm gonna say glittery match? Or I okay, I'm gonna g I'm gonna I'll submit you three. Two to go along with that one. So Serena Serena versus Sablanka would be one. I think Serena versus Coco would would that would that might break ESPN, right?

Anastasia (34:59.946)
Okay, okay.

Anastasia (35:11.02)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (35:13.298)
Serena versus Naomi would be also extremely No That's the one you don't want. Okay.

Anastasia (35:16.263)
No. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. No. So, okay. Let's let's break it all down. Let's break it down. And we'll start with the last one that you just mentioned. If we if we got Serena versus Naomi first round. No. Nobody wants to see that. The the history there.

Alvin Owusu (35:27.054)
Okay.

Anastasia (35:41.205)
That US Open, nobody wants to see that right away. Maybe round four. We'll take it round four. You know, we will not take that first round. Like that is just too much history that's painful and we don't want to see that right now. So I think, I don't know about you, but let me know. But I think that one is, you know, absolutely not no.

Alvin Owusu (35:57.304)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (36:08.952)
See, this is the this is I can't I can't separate like the you know the the podcast space from also like my my career and and we'll call it sports media kinda over there. But like what we want is we want Serena playing on the fourth of July. So that means Serena has to get to about the third round for that to happen. And if she gets to the third round, then either she has gone through a she's

Anastasia (36:21.099)
Yeah.

Anastasia (36:29.985)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (36:36.98)
And and or she's going to be playing a seed. I think someone like an Alexandrova in the first round would be great. Like take that seed spot and then move forward and play one of these other big names under the the weekend of the Fourth of July weekend that everyone's paying attention. That is what that's what everyone wants. That's that's what everyone wants. We don't we don't want Sabalink in the round. We don't want Coco in the first round. We don't want any of these women in the first round. We want Serena to just be Serena, take up all this space.

and ease her way into this draw as if she were seeded. So the only way to get that is to beat a seed in the first round. Just right. Yeah.

Anastasia (37:11.169)
Right. It's to beat a seed and get the seated spot. Yeah. But I mean, just in terms of analysing those matchups though, you know, I feel like because if I I'm on threads a lot. Like I I actually love the conversation that happens on threads a lot and there's a lot of fan bases there and they all like chat and talk. and

If she plays Naomi Osaka, like I think there would be mutiny. They would go the they would go to Wimbledon and talk personally to whoever made the draw if she plays Naomi Osaka first round. If she played Coco, it would be a bummer as well, I think, for a lot of people. But I think a lot of people might see that as sort of like the passing on of the torch, you know, if Coco wins kind of vibes. Like

It'll be happy and joyful, but not really what we want. If she plays Sabalanka, I mean, people are gonna be throwing parties. Like they're gonna be watch parties just everywhere. There'll be a holiday in wherever you are watching from. People will close off the streets and put up a screen and they're watching that. And you know they're only rooting for one person, unfortunately. But that's just th th that's how the fan bases work. And that I think

Alvin Owusu (38:33.528)
Yeah, yeah.

Anastasia (38:38.037)
Would create something that a lot of times doesn't happen in tennis. You know, I think other than the Syncaraz matchup, there isn't any other matchup that people are like, let's turn on the TV. Turn turn on the TV. We're gonna go watch that. And that's what this would be. There really, I mean, when you think about it, truly, like people see Sincaraz and they're like, when, where, how? Who's coming with me to come watch?

Alvin Owusu (39:07.234)
Right. Right.

Anastasia (39:08.979)
Who what other matchup is there like that? And I feel like a Serena Arena my god. Serena Arena. god. Like I can see now, you know? It would be such a moment. And that's why I want it to happen. That's all. That's why I want it to happen.

Alvin Owusu (39:29.132)
Yeah, I mean you have a you have a good point about like the rivalries within tennis right now, right? Yeah, it's it's it's centered Alcaraz. I think i either one of those two against Novak gets people's attention. but on the women's side it's so like I mean we've only had Arena versus Ega once in a Grand Slam, I think. Is that right? And that was last year's French Open s no. Yeah, last year's French Open semifinal. Yeah. yeah, semis. Yeah.

Anastasia (39:53.717)
Yeah. Semis, I think.

Alvin Owusu (39:58.423)
And so because there's so much parity at the top, that that also leaves us with a lack of of rivalries. so and then also you take into consideration like the three players we named, S Arena, Coco, Naomi, none of them have done anything on grass. Like Arena's never won a grass court event. Coco is never won a grass court event.

Anastasia (40:06.135)
Yeah.

Anastasia (40:19.983)
No. Yep. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (40:26.194)
I don't think Naomi's ever won a grass court event either. So that almost makes it a little like

What would what would we learn coming out of any of those matches? Like it's also a little service dependent. like I don't think we I don't think if okay, if Arena beats Serena what do we what do we take from that? Like she's number one player the world. She should beat a a an older woman who has not played competitively in four years. Right? If she loses, god.

No. Yeah, that's we don't yeah, we don't need that. We don't need that. I don't I don't want that. That's gonna make that's gonna make things a little weird. especially in in my neck of the woods here. because we've been talking a lot about like what does the downfall what is the downfall of Arena Sabalica look like and I I c I contend that we're actually we're in it right now. She like she we've seen the peak of her and this is what the come down looks like. And this would just kind of this I think this would Yeah.

Anastasia (41:13.375)
Let me

Alvin Owusu (41:29.592)
That'd be a lot to deal with.

Anastasia (41:32.841)
I I i I yeah, I think it's very interesting, you know. I don't know if we're gonna talk about any other players in this, but watching Arena Sablanca right now, you're sort of like, But wait, you were like my dependable she's just gonna win it, girl. And she just isn't that anymore and you know she has a lot going on.

Like I said, like she's a very big personality. And in in recent years, even before officially getting engaged and stuff, she's just doing so much other stuff. She's in Vogue. She's in this. And kind of again, like Serena, she likes that part too. She likes the cover of Vogue and the massive engagement ring and the you know the the pomp and circumstance of it all. and you wonder.

I've never thought of that actually, that we might have seen her peak. because I feel like it would be a huge disappointment for her if she never wins a grand slam on a natural surface. Like I feel like she's literally been waiting to complete the career slam, you know? And and I think she is.

I mean, she's talks about it a lot, about wanting to start a family and all of that stuff. I really think she's the sort of player who she'll win the Korea slam and she'll like deuces. I'm gonna go get married and have a ton of babies.

Alvin Owusu (43:16.086)
feel I just feel like the career slam is like I think we assumed it that it was going to happen for her because of the level of dominance she's had over the last 18 months let's say prior to the French open but when you start to look back on it I I I I'll come back to the she's I'm gonna say only she's only won four grand slams right we assume the career grand slam was gonna come but like I don't know why like

Anastasia (43:34.903)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (43:42.723)
Like I have nothing to point to that says she's a she's a championship winning grass court player. 'Cause she's never like not a two fifty, not a five hundred. She's never won a grass court event. So like to go from that to saying she's going to win Wimbledon, it's like I don't have a reason to believe that that is true. and she's

Anastasia (43:43.821)
'Cause she kept getting to the finals of everything.

Alvin Owusu (44:04.248)
That's that's true. That's true. She also has a really shaky three set grand slam record. Like it's very it's very shakel shaky. And so and she's also twenty eight years old, which is like obviously it's not forty four, but when you look at the people in her like her cohort or not her cohort, those others in the top five outside of Jessica, she's she's significantly older than the rest of them. Like and the things you mentioned, she wants to she's

She's thinking about what life outside of being a professional tennis player actually looks like. I yeah. I don't know. I have my I have my reasons to believe that this and it's nothing obviously something personal. I I I like Arena Sabalenka and I I think the world of her is a tennis player, but everything that comes up must come down, and when it comes down, there is a point in which when it looks like it's at the top, it's actually moving down. So like it's it's it's I think it's just something to keep an eye on.

Not saying she's falling outside the top ten anytime soon, but I don't know. We say all this and then she'll watch her win Wimbledon and shut me up. That's what probably what happens in the next few weeks.

Anastasia (45:14.487)
Hey she started seeing a sports psychologist, so you never she's gonna you know, you never know. You never know what's gonna happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (45:21.413)
again? Okay. Good.

Alvin Owusu (45:27.576)
Let me ask you this. What does over the course of over the course of two weeks of Wimbledon, what does coverage look like for for for ground ground pass? How do you guys how do you guys handle, if you take me behind the scenes, how do you handle a grand slam?

Anastasia (45:28.682)
Anastasia (45:42.731)
So usually in the Grand Slam, you know, I think maybe way back in the day we tried to do dailies and that's just not sustainable for for a podcast like ours. so what we tend to do is we do every other round review. So we will do a round one and two, three and four, and so on and so forth. So you will get more podcasts from us during a Grand Slam. so that's great. If if we're on the grounds, obviously.

It would be a little different, but that's pretty much it. And then we do do one episode every Grand Slam, you know, focusing on the fashion of it all and talking about the kits and all that stuff because all of that stuff is is fun as well. but yeah, that's basically it for for Grand Slams for us.

Alvin Owusu (50:23.916)
Right. Yeah, like if you're if you're not tennis podcast, right, and they get to do it, they're there on site. It's kind of part of their their rotation, right? Like they matches all day, do the podcast, someone else edits it and posts it, and then they come back again the next thing. Okay, that's that's how you do daily coverage from a slam. at best we'll do every we try to go every round, so every other day. but when during the French Open I kind of botched it because I was I thought it'd be cool 'cause I'd be in France.

Anastasia (50:45.222)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (50:52.528)
and that would make the French Open interesting. But what happened was during week two I was just technically on vacation and was not watching much tennis at all. And I was on the same time zone. So like it actually I had no advantage of like the the five hour head start in the day. It's just like, no, I can't watch tennis until nine o'clock at night. And I so we didn't do a single podcast from like round three until the I don't know, finals or something like that. yeah.

Anastasia (51:20.7)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (51:21.762)
So that's how it goes. so I've I've vowed that I will not be traveling during Grand Slams ever again. I'm not even going to the US Open this year. I'm gonna wait well, I'm gonna go during qualifying. I'm gonna go two days for qualifying and then come back home.

Anastasia (51:35.1)
I'm like, how how dare you? what do you mean you're not coming to the US open?

Alvin Owusu (51:41.772)
I I'm doing it on my terms. On my terms.

Anastasia (51:43.598)
Okay. Okay. Okay, fine.

Alvin Owusu (51:47.245)
Ye yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like, you know, I I I love tennis, like everyone loves tennis. and when I go to some of these tournaments it's nice to run into like some coaches that I might know or, you know, kind of bounce around a little bit. I'm not actually that interested in sitting down and watching a tennis match. I don't really need to watch an entire match in person to take away what I need to take away, for the you know, for the uses of this podcast or, you know

building my own information bank. Like so therefore practice becomes a lot more valuable to me. let me go watch thirty minutes, let me get some let me get some footage. Like let me get what I need to get. And then like for me, the best place for me to be watching matches is actually at my house. and especially during a grandson, you know, bounce around court to court. Like I don't need to sit down and watch anyone play a match for two hours on day one or day day three of an event. I don't need that. Still need it. So

Anastasia (52:42.599)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (52:43.48)
That's my that's my that's my approach. that's my approach. I think we can we can probably put a pen in it. That was that was that was it was good to get some Serena talk in. I I cannot wait until this straw comes out. Like I I am stupid excited for this straw to come out and it's it's d I'm sure everyone else is as well. and then it'll come out on Friday and we'll have you know something like

some two to four days of anticipation of that match, but the world will be watching. We will be covering it. It will be great. so Anastasia, I appreciate you coming. Always a pleasure to talk to you. I guess we probably won't see each other

Anastasia (53:23.738)
Yeah. You're the first person I'm gonna text if she draws Arena.

Alvin Owusu (53:32.332)
Yeah, I I I don't think we'll see each other again probably until D C. Well I see you in D C.

Anastasia (53:37.316)
Yes, yes, yes. I'm gonna go to D C.

Alvin Owusu (53:41.569)
Okay, perfect. Awesome. Okay. So Wimbledon, Wimbledon, here we come. And it's gonna be fun. so once again, I'm Alan. That's Anastasia. Best of three slash grounds pass. We are out.