20. Love and Lawlessness: The McKinney and Small Story

In this episode, hosts Stephanie and Dani recount the disturbing true crime tale of Randy McKinney and Dovey Small. The couple's road trip from Arizona to Idaho in 1981 leads to a senseless murder fueled by drugs, desperation, and delusions of grandeur. Intended to be a quick stop in Malad, Idaho, to visit Small's sisters, the trip escalates into a plot to rob and kill their helpful friend Robert Bishop Jr. The aftermath includes chaotic decision-making, dramatic arrests, a "murder dog", and lengthy legal battles. Join us as we unravel this grim story and reflect on the lost lives and misguided choices.

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Transcript

Stephanie 0:30

Alright, welcome back to another episode of the Lethal Library. I'm Stephanie. I'm Danny, and we are here to tell you another tale of true crime that Danny's got prepared for us. quick shout out to listeners that are coming back every week and visiting our TikTok. We love your comments. We love your emails, so. Keep them coming. We love that you love the show. Or even if you don't love the show, you can tell us. But thank you guys for listening. So Danny, what's in store for us today?

Dani 1:02

Don't be the nice guy. Uh oh. For one Idaho man, being the nice guy, got him killed. Do you really know your friend's? Friends? Today I am going to tell you the story of Randy McKinney and Dey Small two Lovers turned murderers. No sources used in today's episode are the South Idaho Press, the Bitch, the Idaho Statesman, love Her and The Times News. Okay, 1981. I Randy McKinney, age 19 and his girlfriend Doy Small 27, arrived in Milad, Idaho on April 6th, 1981. I just, I'm gonna have to, I have to tell you this. I love her name. Do small. It's Debbie Dovey.

Stephanie 1:54

Dovey. Okay. Thank you for clearing that up. I thought it was Debbie. It sounds like small, such a

Dani 2:00

petite, like it belongs like, it's like almost a

Stephanie 2:03

movie star name. Like Yeah,

Dani 2:05

that's what I'm saying.

Stephanie 2:06

That's a very cute name. Um, quite the age gap though. Very confusing with her being much older.

Dani 2:13

So I guess I could just tell you a little bit, about Doy Small. I really didn't have this in the story, Let me tell you, a little bit about her background. she was raised, uh, aroma. She didn't even learn English until she was seven.

Stephanie 2:34

Really? And she was here the whole time. Yeah.

Dani 2:35

In West Virginia. Her father died when she was seven. And some people say he was murdered. this is sad. She also lost her three-year-old daughter in a car accident.

Stephanie 2:48

Oh

Dani 2:49

my God. And it almost killed her as well. She the, she was driving from, so she's from West Virginia. She was driving from West Virginia to Omaha, and she went over 150 foot cliff

Stephanie 3:05

and she survived. Yeah.

Dani 3:06

Her, her pelvis had to be wired together and all of her teeth were knocked out.

Stephanie 3:12

Oh my God. And her

Dani 3:13

daughter died, so I mean, she barely made it. I mean, it's a tragic, it's a tragic thing. And she also. when she was 21, her fiance was killed three weeks before their wedding in 1976. So she, she's been through it, she's been through it. And after her daughter died, drugs and motorcycle games were her

Stephanie 3:37

these damn motorcycle games. That was her

Dani 3:39

out. Yep. so yes, there's an age difference, but I just. I, I think she was a lost soul

Stephanie 3:49

searching for something. Yeah.

Dani 3:50

Yeah. And so she found comfort in and these people that would take care of her and mm-hmm. So she just, she was a vagabond, like just traveling and just Yeah. Fitting in in different places. So.

Stephanie 4:06

Okay. Very interesting.

Dani 4:07

two lines into the story, and I'm already telling you about her anyway. They ended up in Milad after hitchhiking through several states, and they checked into a motel for the night they were in Milad to see small sister Ada Mangum and Kathy Mangu before they continued the travels to Montana. Never could figure out why they were heading to Montana, but that was the end goal.

Stephanie 4:32

Okay.

Dani 4:34

Small sisters lived in Blackfoot, Idaho, about an hour away. I'm just looking at the map. I think that they, they hitched a ride from like Salt Lake City. Oh my

Stephanie 4:43

gosh. Up

Dani 4:44

through, well they originally met in Arizona, McKinney and small. They met in Arizona and they were hitchhiking through up to, Montana, but they wanted to stop here

Stephanie 4:56

in Idaho. How to see the sissies.

Dani 4:59

Yes. and Milad is. About an hour away from Blackfoot, but it's on the trail from, if I, I looked at the map and it's like, oh, they hitched a ride like Salt Lake City area. Right? But small, didn't wanna stay in Idaho for long. She had a felony warrant in the state. Dunno what it was for, but she had a felony warrant. She said,

Stephanie 5:25

yeah, we gotta make it this a quick trip. I just

Dani 5:26

gotta stop and see my sissies. And then we're out the next morning. Ada and Kathy found a friend to drive them to Milad to pick up McKinney and small and bring them back to Blackfoot.

Stephanie 5:38

Okay.

Dani 5:40

When her sisters arrived in Milad to pick'em up from the motel, small showed her sister Ada a handgun that was lying on the table of their motel room. McKinney stated, this is big time. No more penny Andy.

Stephanie 5:59

No more what?

Dani 6:00

Penny Andy. Is that a term I'm not familiar with Auntie. It's, uh, anti up poker. Like, oh, okay. No more penny aunties. Like,

Stephanie 6:11

we're doing the big stuff.

Dani 6:12

Yeah.

Stephanie 6:13

Ooh, okay.

Dani 6:15

It's a, it was kind of a unique thing that he said, and I was like, oh, but auntie is what you do. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 6:20

Like up the ante. Yeah. And poker. Okay.

Dani 6:24

Later that evening. Ada called her friend. So they, they all went back to Blackfoot.

Stephanie 6:30

Mm-hmm.

Dani 6:31

Like sissies. There was, you know,

Stephanie 6:34

probably very excited for a reunion

Dani 6:37

Ada called her friend Robert Bishop Jr. To see if he would drive McKinney and small to the interstate the next day so they could continue to hitchhike to Montana because they were off the interstate at that point. Mm-hmm. Right in the lab on the way you got up, Blackfoot not on the way. Robert called back the next morning and said, yeah, I can do that for you. Sister Kathy watched as McKinney cleaned his gun while they were waiting for Robert McKinney again stated he was going quote big time and he was going to quote, blow him away. Yeah.

Stephanie 7:13

The person that's coming to get them. Or does she maybe assume that they're robbing places or he doesn't specifically

Dani 7:21

say, it was Robert, but I just think he was talking a lot of shit.'cause he had a gun.

Stephanie 7:27

It sounds like it.

Dani 7:29

And he was 19.

Stephanie 7:30

Yeah.

Dani 7:34

Robert arrived a short time later and McKinney and Small loaded their stuff into the vehicle, the group. So I just wanna make it clear who's here. It's Robert. And McKinney and small, and both of her sisters, ADA and Kathy that got into the car, they dropped Kathy off at her house. So now we're down to, Robert McKinney Small and her sister ate ADA They dropped Kathy at her house and proceeded to the store to buy cigarettes, beer, and soda. Sounds like a good time.

Stephanie 8:11

Yeah. Ready to go.

Dani 8:13

It was decided that they would take the route through Arco Idaho. Towards Montana.

Stephanie 8:18

Okay.

Dani 8:19

They went this way because small needed to make a quick stop in Arco

Stephanie 8:23

For what?

Dani 8:24

She said. A woman, Jackie Willis. Owed her money for a car.

Stephanie 8:29

Damn it, Jackie.

Dani 8:31

And they stopped at a couple of bars in Arco and drank some more beer and played pool. They grouped them packed up and went to the home of Denise Garner. Lots of names, so it's okay. Denise lived with Jackie Willis' son Casey. So it was Jackie's son's, girlfriend's house. Okay. And small had known Casey as 17-year-old convicted felon for a while

Stephanie 9:05

that's young, for being a felon

Dani 9:09

and that he was not in jail.

Stephanie 9:10

Right.

Dani 9:11

small had helped Casey hide from the law a few times.

Stephanie 9:15

So we're all good friends here?

Dani 9:17

Yep. We're besties. Casey said he would show them where his mother Jackie lived. Such a weird dynamic.

Stephanie 9:24

I know. Like,

Dani 9:25

like, oh, you wanna know where my mom is? She owes you money. I'll take you there. Yeah. Y

Stephanie 9:30

bring your gun.

Dani 9:32

I don't know if she said that your mom owe the, owe the money. The, she might've said, take me to your mom. I don't

Stephanie 9:36

know. Yeah. We're all friends. We're all

Dani 9:37

friends here, right? Mm-hmm. Small and Ada rode with Casey in his car, and Robert and McKinney followed to go over to Jackie's house during the drive. Small told Casey that she and Mc McKinney had quote a piece, and if Jackie's husband gave them any trouble, she would blow his crap away.

Stephanie 10:04

They are ready to blow someone away.

Dani 10:06

That's kind of, they're

Stephanie 10:07

almost like itching for it.

Dani 10:09

Yeah. And small earlier had pointed the gun out of the window of the car and shot at a, at a house.

Stephanie 10:16

Oh, we're just casually doing drive-bys now

Dani 10:19

just for shits and gigs and in these small towns.

Stephanie 10:23

I'm surprised they didn't have a bunch of people after'em.

Dani 10:27

So they finally get to Jackie's McKinney took the gun back from small because, quote, he didn't want her to do something stupid.

Stephanie 10:36

I feel like there's a propensity for stupidity from both of these parties, but Sure. Who, whoever's the responsible one in the moment, who's the least drunk?

Dani 10:47

Uh, yeah. In drugs, I'm sure. Drugs. Lot of drugs. So it got heated at Jackie's house. Hmm. When Jackie refused to give small any money.

Stephanie 10:57

Uh oh.

Dani 10:58

Mm-hmm. They left empty handed and went back to Casey and Denise's house. On the drive back, small told Casey that her and McKinney were gonna kill Robert because he had a lot of money, credit cards, and a nice car.

Stephanie 11:16

Oh, so they're gonna take it out on poor Robert. He had nothing to do with this.

Dani 11:20

Exactly.

Stephanie 11:22

You didn't have the balls to shoot someone who did owe you money. I'm not saying they should have, but you talked to all this game, we don't get what we want. And if you feel rightfully owed. You couldn't do it there, but you're just like

Dani 11:36

the guy that gave you a ride.

Stephanie 11:38

Yeah. So strange.

Dani 11:41

Back at Casey's house, Robert sat on the couch in the living room and played around with some of the kids that were there,

Stephanie 11:47

just entertaining the kids. And Ada and Kathy, this is like their friend, right?

Dani 11:51

It's ADA's friend. Yeah.

Stephanie 11:53

And you're just chill, like, oh, everybody's

Dani 11:56

chill.

Stephanie 11:57

Oh, bummer. You're gonna, and he

Dani 11:58

is just probably literally sitting on the, he. He offered to give these guys a ride. Sure. He's kind of now into it like, okay, I'll just hang out and wait until you guys figure out when you wanna leave. That's what I imagine happened.

Stephanie 12:09

And there, like you said, there's some drugs involved, so we're all just having a grand old time. Yeah. He

Dani 12:14

was just chilling, partying. McKinney and Small went into the kitchen. Denise was in and outta the kitchen, but Casey stood nearby and he overheard small tell McKinney that they had to leave the state. Because she has a warrant.

Stephanie 12:31

Yeah. They gotta get outta there. And

Dani 12:32

she just had that altercation at Jackie's.

Stephanie 12:35

They, and they're shooting at houses like, whoopsie. We did some drive-bys on accident. We might wanna leave

Dani 12:46

McKinney said, well, let's go get the job done and get out of here.

Stephanie 12:53

Uh,

Dani 12:53

this is not going well.

Stephanie 12:55

No.

Dani 12:57

Small said quote, Casey owes me one. And then she had asked Casey if he would kill Robert.

Stephanie 13:05

And now you can't even do it after talking all this shit. What's going on here? Casey said, Nope. He's like, uh, yeah, y'all, I, I know. We like to get crazy. I mean, I'm a felon. We like to party, but you're kidding. This is escalating. Why would I kill the, I mean, he's playing with the kids.

Dani 13:24

Yeah. McKinney said he would take Robert out to the desert, shoot him, and then burn the body, and small said quote. That sounds like a good idea.

Stephanie 13:34

Yeah, that that's a totally normal conversation

Dani 13:38

in front of other pe.

Stephanie 13:40

Very brash and. We gotta do what we gotta do. Lots of audacity is happening here.

Dani 13:47

Let's just kill the guy that's giving us a ride to the interstate. So, yeah, burn his

Stephanie 13:51

body in the desert. We know how to do that.

Dani 13:54

I do not know what's going on here, but for some reason, sister Ada called the owner of a local bar, the Antler Club, to let them know they would be down in a few minutes. Are they like special celebrities?

Stephanie 14:11

Maybe they're very popular in this town. They're like, ADA's coming. Or maybe, maybe, I don't know, maybe like, I have

Dani 14:19

never pre-call a bar and said, um, I'm coming.

Stephanie 14:22

We'll be down soon. Please make sure the paparazzi isn't there. Thank you. What is happening? I don't,

Dani 14:27

I don't get it. Don't need

Stephanie 14:29

make it drugs. Maybe they're like, have our cocaine ready. I don't know.

Dani 14:35

Casey and Denise stayed home wisely. Stay home with those kids. Yeah, so yeah, do not go Robert's down. He drove the rest of the group down to the bar and somebody on the drive suggested they go Target shooting with McKinney's gun.

Stephanie 14:55

Obviously as you do, it sounds like this is probably evening time as well, like. Let's go shoot some guns. Maybe even we've had enough of the drive-bys. Let's go. Target shooting.

Dani 15:09

Robert and McKinney left after they dropped small and Sister A off at the bar.

Stephanie 15:15

Hmm.

Dani 15:16

We're gonna go shoot some guns on the desert. We'll be back. Ladies, go have a drink.

Stephanie 15:21

There will be gunshot. I feel

Dani 15:24

15 minutes later, McKinney came back and said, quote, let's go. That was quick. It was very quick. The women saw Robert's car, but he wasn't around. When they asked about Robert McKinney said he had quote, shot him once in the stomach and five times in the head

Stephanie 15:46

Excessive. And also, I mean, so who all's at the bar? So it's, it's small. And her sister Ada. You're saying this in front of Ada, like, did you not like this dude very much? Was this just some guy that was obsessed with you or something, or And Ada was the one that called him? Yeah,

Dani 16:06

ADA called and was like. Hey y'all. Why didn't

Stephanie 16:08

they feel the need to lie and be like, oh, he wasn't feeling good, but said we could still use his car. No,

Dani 16:13

it was just McKinney and Robert. Yeah. That went out to go shoot the gun. So there was four people in the car. McKinney went with Robert to go shoot his gun

Stephanie 16:24

target practice. All, all very weird.

Dani 16:29

It is weird. It's I drug fueled, I imagine. Mm-hmm. Small, and Ada said that they didn't believe him. They're like, you didn't. You didn't shoot him. So McKinney says, Hmm, I'll show you

Stephanie 16:46

weird. Now we're going on a field trip.

Dani 16:48

Field trip. The group drove Robert's car to an old gravel pit just outside of town where they saw Robert lying on the ground. Ada lost it and became hysterical, she said. You take me back to Blackfoot. I am done with this shit. Like she was over

Stephanie 17:08

it. So what did you think of all the previous conversation? I mean, I don't know how you can be like, oh, we're just joking around. We have tons of friends from all different backgrounds and no one's like, ha, you know what? Danny said something to me. I'm gonna take her to a gravel pit and shoot her brains out. And everyone's like, oh, Steph, this joker. Steph. She's so fucking funny. She's cleaning her gun now. She says she's gonna blow her ass away. Oh, now they're going on a field trip. What? Mm-hmm. Like, I mean, I'm glad that someone was like, what the fuck? But Ada,

Dani 17:46

what did you think

Stephanie 17:47

was gonna happen?

Dani 17:47

What? Okay. Small said quote, you didn't have to shoot him. And McKinney replied. Quote, he had proved his love of his woman.

Stephanie 18:04

Okay. Yeah. Y'all are high as fuck because for one, uh, Ms. Smalls, you knew about this. And two, how is that proving your love? I mean, we gotta do what we gotta do right now. We're big time. I told you I was doing the big time. Big time. I'm a certified gangster.

Dani 18:28

So they dropped hysterical sister Ada off at her house in Blackfoot and headed back over to Sister Kathy's house Small, had told her that McKinney had shot Robert. She's like, SIS, my guy here killed Robert. You know, the nice guy playing with the kids and giving us a ride dead.

Stephanie 18:52

Not quote, but how did Kathy react?

Dani 18:54

Well, Kathy then asked. Kathy then asked for Robert's leather jacket and Small gave it to her, and I just want, this was in the context of a memento, a keepsake for him. That's how she was asking for this stuff. So small, gave it to her, but then Kathy also asked for his wallet,

Stephanie 19:19

but they wanted the wallet

Dani 19:22

and they said, no, you cannot have that for a keepsake. Thank you.

Stephanie 19:25

We actually wanted that for our keepsake. Mm-hmm. For a memento. I'm floored.

Dani 19:33

I'm just saying if I found out somebody was shot, I wouldn't be like, and that my sister's boyfriend shot them. I'd be like, can I have a s leather jacket? I love. It's such a nice step. I'd be like, get the fuck outta my house. Well, and why did he, and I'm calling the cops after you leave.

Stephanie 19:50

Ugh. Like, and just that they also had the audacity to tell Kathy after Ada responded so badly, oh. Like, oh, ADA's having a heart attack. Let's tell Kathy too. I'd be like, uh, we got kind of a bad reaction on that one. We, we didn't read the room apparently, so maybe we just don't tell Kathy and we just say, you know, he let us use his car or What the hell

Dani 20:15

So after the wallet denial, McKinney and small drove to Pocatello and used Robert's credit card to buy gas.

Stephanie 20:24

Now they got them cards. They were wanting so bad,

Dani 20:28

they called ADA and said they were coming back to Blackfoot to get Small's dog.

Stephanie 20:34

And you forgot the dog. They are fucked up.

Dani 20:38

Yeah. Oh shit. I forgot the dog. And all this murder business and hysterical sisters and stealing credit cards and buying gas. If you're

Stephanie 20:47

shooting up houses and shooting people, forgot the dogs. You might just, if you forgot the dog, you might wanna cut your loss. At that point, I'd be a little paranoid.

Dani 20:54

I'm gonna tell you, basically this whole scenario was the dog's fault.

Stephanie 21:00

Oh, e,

Dani 21:01

everything. The dog was the murderer.

Stephanie 21:06

That dog, you know, it was holding the, the gun. Um, with his disposable thumbs, you should have seen them. You can train the dog duty just about anything these days. Very talented.

Dani 21:20

So Ada told her husband and his friends about the shooting and the police had already been called, somebody had already called the police. So by the time these yahoos were fucking driving back to get her dog, the cops already knew, like nobody's keeping quiet'cause somebody was rational. Somebody said, ow. Oh, we don't be shooting people

Stephanie 21:44

in a gravel pit. Like and telling, why did they even tell anyone? Like just say that he said, I gotta go home. I'm sick, but use my car. People wouldn't have found out for days maybe. Who knows? But you have to tell this fair. I shot somebody,

Dani 22:01

I shot somebody, I shot somebody. I shot somebody. He's dead. He's dead. That's what they did.

Stephanie 22:07

And then they're telling other people immediately like, yeah,

Dani 22:11

well Ada was fucking hyster. She was,

Stephanie 22:14

that's what's confusing is she sounded like she was very down. Why ended up in that

Dani 22:17

situation, which I, I hoped I would never be in a situation where somebody told me they shot somebody. I would very calm.

Stephanie 22:25

Yes.

Dani 22:26

Oh, take me home. Lock my fucking doors. Tell my husband and call the co. I would be telling my husband. The same time I was telling the police.

Stephanie 22:38

Yeah, absolutely not.

Dani 22:39

No. I'd be like, okay, I'm not hysterical. I'm

Stephanie 22:42

calm. Oh, cool. You're, you're big time,

Dani 22:46

big

Stephanie 22:46

time. No, no. Penny auntie here. Wow. Very cool. Cool story, bro.

Dani 22:53

I'm hungry anyway. I

Stephanie 22:54

I do need to get home though. Uh, thank you. So, got dinner to cook

Dani 22:59

or?

Stephanie 22:59

Yeah. Thank you so much. You gonna wash my hair? Yeah. Bye.

Dani 23:04

So anyways, ADA had

Stephanie 23:07

blabbed

Dani 23:07

blabbed and they, everybody was calling the cops like, Hey. So they were waiting for them to pick up the murder dog. Um, so McKinney and Small were stopped by a police officer outside of ADA's house'cause they were waiting for them. This, this astounded me. McKinney got out of the car and walked straight for the police officer.

Stephanie 23:38

Ugh.

Dani 23:40

It's a small town. Very small. I don't know. I didn't look. I should have looked it up.

Stephanie 23:45

Well, lad's, very tiny and especially, this is in the eighties. Oh, this is an Arco.

Dani 23:49

Oh, okay. Wait, maybe they're in Blackfoot. Blackfoot still. They're foot black one, still tiny, whatever. They're all little. so we got outta the car and walked straight for the officer, and I think that this just took the cop back. Like, he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This isn't how this is supposed to go. Yeah. And so the officer returned to his patrol car probably calling for backup. Yeah. Like, he's like, um, this, um, he walking up to me. He's not running, not scared, he's being aggressive. So when the officer returned to his patrol car, McKinney just walked into Sister ADA's house.

Stephanie 24:24

Nothing to see here. Just getting the dog. They can't murder dog. They can't pull me over. They can't stop me.

Dani 24:29

Small had taken off too. She was later found hiding. And Sister ADA's bathroom. You're not getting away. No,

Stephanie 24:41

they're already

Dani 24:42

there. So, uh, we did take a break.

Stephanie 24:47

We did. We made an oopsie. So if you've noticed a difference in the sound,

Dani 24:54

we left the fan on. Sorry

Stephanie 24:56

about that. Um, because it'd be hot

Dani 24:57

in here,

Stephanie 24:58

it does get hot in here. But if you notice a change, we are, sorry. We're sorry. We don't really wanna rerecord it though, so please forgive us if there is a weird sound quality for the first 25 minutes or so. Our cheapest apologies. We are not revenge at all.

Dani 25:16

And we didn't even

Stephanie 25:16

realize it. No, I cannot believe it. We did not realize it the whole time we're so I just looked at it and was like. Oh, damn it. So anyway, we're back. Hopefully the sound is good for you. Love you guys so much. Thanks for, bearing through that.

Dani 25:37

All right. so when McKinney's in the house, he asked sister Ada what she had told the police and ADA's husband yelled. Quote, what the hell do you think she said? She told the truth

Stephanie 25:54

and now you're coming over here to get your dog like the murder dog. You should have just kept on your merry little way.

Dani 26:01

McKinney responded, quote, well, looks like I'm going for murder.

Stephanie 26:08

I can't believe the cops let him walk in there knowing that they were the. What if he wanted to do a big time and now,'cause he knows he is going and all the drugs involved, he's like, well, pop, pop, pop.

Dani 26:21

I think maybe this is what I'm envisioning, like I've, in my head, like the, the police officer that was sent there was not expecting that reaction. No. And so then can you imagine pulling up on somebody being like, I'm gonna get you. Come talk to me and they're like, I don't give a fuck what you're wearing. I don't give a fuck what badge you are. And just

Stephanie 26:49

boom, boom,

Dani 26:50

and just, yeah, charging at you. Basically, he charged at him and he is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Holy shit. I, Becca, I would've got back in my car too. I'm surprised they didn't already

Stephanie 27:04

have backup I would've been

Dani 27:05

expecting over.

Stephanie 27:06

Well, it's a big police chase.

Dani 27:09

But also maybe they were thinking, oh, it's rumors.'cause they hadn't found a body yet. So they're like, all right. Somebody called and said they shot somebody and we're just gonna go check it out. But I don't know, I just think very strange. It was a small time. Mm-hmm. Small time. City, town, like very tiny.

Stephanie 27:31

Yeah.

Dani 27:31

So. I don't, think that they were expecting that reaction, reaction from McKinney and they weren't prepared for it. No. Clearly, clearly, big time police came into the house and Ada again told the police that McKinney had shot Robert, and I'm imagining a lot of screaming and. Freaking out.

Stephanie 27:56

Well,'cause I'd be like, why did you let him walk in here? Why is

Dani 27:58

he here? I just told you like we told you, and then you just let him walk into our house. Like I'd be scared if I was Ada. Same. But once the police were in the house,'cause he said, you know Yeah. McKinney said, yeah, I'm catching a murder charge. Right. But once the police were in the house, he was like, quote, I didn't kill anybody.

Stephanie 28:21

Now we're finally trying some self preservation here. Okay? Sure, bro. It was

Dani 28:27

the dog. McKinney was placed in custody. They searched Robert's car and found a 22 caliber handgun and a purse. We know it was Small's purse. Mm-hmm. And Robert's wallet small and Ada showed the police where Robert's body was.

Stephanie 28:48

But he didn't kill anybody. How did he know? Right. Robert was only 25. Oh my God. Yeah. And was just trying to be, he thought he was a member of the gang, like our little party. Oh, you need me to help you out, friends, I got you. Yeah. Playing with the kids, driving you around. Probably had a

Dani 29:07

good job. I, I did try to find at least an obit and I couldn't, so I, my apologies. I wish I knew more about him. But he was from Pocatello. That's it. And he was 25. And I hate that'cause I really do. Mm-hmm. Wanna know a little bit more about him. But, I just think he was a good guy. He probably had a decent job and had had enough money to have a car

Stephanie 29:30

and he was like the richer friend in the group or something. Yeah. And thought that he was friends with everyone but. People were talking about killing him hours before his murder, and

Dani 29:41

he's just hanging out. He is like, yeah, I'll give your friends a ride. I'll give what I'll give sister. What a shame. It's bullshit. And I bet you Ada, Phil's so much guilt. Mm-hmm. I don't think that was her intention at all. But also, did you not pick up on the. The clues that was being th big dump and blah, blah, blah. But yeah, I'm

Stephanie 30:02

gonna shoot him. I'm gonna, we're gonna take a card. And she, she should

Dani 30:06

have been

Stephanie 30:06

like,

Dani 30:07

what the fuck?

Stephanie 30:08

Yeah.

Dani 30:08

What are you saying?

Stephanie 30:10

Anyway, psychos

Dani 30:13

McKinney was interviewed by the police later that night. He said he wasn't an Arco, but eventually. He started to cry and said he accidentally shot Robert while they were target shooting. You took them to the body? she did.

Stephanie 30:30

Oh, okay.

Dani 30:31

Small did and Ada sister. Ada did. So he is like, I wasn't, I wasn't even in Arco. Yeah. Okay. Hold on. But then he broke down, started to cry. It was an accident. He blamed. The fucking dog. How he said the little dog was nipping at his heels, but he couldn't remember anything after that. But going back to the bar to get the girls and then showing them the body,

Stephanie 31:09

none of that makes logical sense. Murder dog. If you didn't remember killing someone, how do you remember to take them back and show them where the body is?

Dani 31:17

McKinney was charged with first degree murder, robbery, conspiracy to commit, murder and conspiracy to commit robbery so much,

Stephanie 31:29

no shit.

Dani 31:30

Small was not charged, but she's being held as a material witness.

Stephanie 31:35

Okay.

Dani 31:36

She was finally interviewed and an exchange she will be released. The deposition was in front of McKinney and his attorney cross-examined her.

Stephanie 31:49

That'd be intimidating. Very. Yeah.

Dani 31:55

In September, small is charged with first degree murder. Eating and abetting conspiracy to commit murder and conspiracy to commit. Commit robbery. She was also pregnant with McKinney's child and she was released on September 17th. So part of the reason that she was released was a big pregnant.

32:21

Mm-hmm.

Dani 32:22

Uh, they really don't, in these small town, they don't have the facility. No. For.

Stephanie 32:28

A lot of people at all. Right.

Dani 32:29

Uh, let alone a pregnant woman who needs to go to a doctor. Mm-hmm. And all that kind of stuff. but also part of the thing was like, you gotta give us,'cause she's being held like Samara, remember back in Yes. We're just gonna hold you and tell you, tell us something. And so she's like, fine, I will tell you something. So they did do that, and that was a condition of her being released. Not Samira. She was 10 toes down. Oh. She's like, I'm here forever. Yeah, I'll stay in here On November 2nd, 1981, McKinney's trial begins. I just wanna say I'm still amazed how fast they push these trials through.

Stephanie 33:08

Yeah, there are ready to go.

Dani 33:11

A firearms expert, Richard Craven, testified that the weight of the trigger pull. Of the 22 caliber gun was one of the heaviest he'd ever encountered.

Stephanie 33:23

So you have to be really trying to shoot this gun, especially, I think it was six times, five times in the head, one time in the stomach.

33:29

Mm-hmm.

Dani 33:30

Well, that was what you're gonna hear a little bit more about from a pathologist, but the gun was passed to the jury so they could test it themselves, which blew my mind. Sitting in a jury box going click, that's a little click, strange click they did. small. Was unable to testify at the trial'cause of the marriage or They were not married. Oh, she was in the hospital due to complications of her pregnancy. Oh. But parts of her deposition were used reused. She literally gave birth during this trial. Oh my gosh. Mm-hmm. a pathologist testified Robert was shot once in the chest and four times in the head at close range. Based on the amount of blood found in Robert's lungs, it was determined that the shots in the head occurred. This is important, five to 10 minutes, up to one to two hours after the chest shot.

Stephanie 34:36

Oh, but he was back in 15 minutes.

Dani 34:40

Just keep that in your pocket.

Stephanie 34:41

Okay.

Dani 34:43

Bullet fragments found during the autopsy were consistent with the ones fired from the gun found in Robert's car. McKinney testified at his own trial. Oof. He said he accidentally shot Robert because Small's murder dog. Was nipping at his pant leg while Robert was setting up the bottles for target practice.

Stephanie 35:10

Why would you be like pointing this gun? This dog is biting my ankle. Ah. Five shots. What? You gotta think of something better than that. Say he attacked you or something. Say he came onto you. Murder dog. The dog was biting my heels, so I had to shoot my acquaintance.

Dani 35:37

I don't know if, if I've ever been target practice, nobody is pointing a gun at the targets while somebody is setting up Said targets. Yeah. That's not how that works, but dude, don't shoot me. I'm just gonna go set up these bottles. How about nobody points the fucking gun up. Yeah. And ready? That's. Anyway. What the fuck? It's a stretch, sir. It's a stretch. More

Stephanie 36:00

than a stretch. I don't even know what to call that. Like I was aiming at the bottles that my friend was placing, pointing a gun at him, and I'd be like, put the fucking gun down, bro. Yeah. What the fuck? Anyone would be like, uh, excuse me.

Dani 36:13

Why are you pointing the gun while I'm setting up? We're not ready. Yeah, not ready. Murder dog. Fuck Jesus. When Robert fell to the ground after being shot, and, and this is McKinney's testimony, right? Mm-hmm. So when Robert fell to the ground after being shot, he went to town and grabbed the ladies.

Stephanie 36:37

Yeah.

Dani 36:38

And like remember, like, mm-hmm. I shut them, blah, blah, blah. They returned to the scene of the crime and small for some reason, just grabbed the gun and she went up and shot Robert in the head several times. Hmm Hmm. McKinney also denied any pre-planned murder slash robbery except for their big time. No more Penny auntie.

Stephanie 37:06

Telling people that you're literally gonna kill this dude to take his credit cards. Yeah, sure. Oh, except

Dani 37:11

for that there's no pre-planned nothing.

Stephanie 37:14

It was the

Dani 37:15

fucking dog.

Stephanie 37:16

Yeah. If that damn dog wouldn't have bit me, I wouldn't have shot my friend.

Dani 37:21

Mm. On November 12th, after three hours of deliberation, the jury came back guilty on all charges.

Stephanie 37:29

Easy peasy. Apparently.

Dani 37:31

Yeah.

Stephanie 37:32

To like, can the dog get

Dani 37:34

convicted? That's 10

Stephanie 37:36

days after the trial starts.

Dani 37:38

Yeah. No, and this, it happened in June. Yeah. In June. That's not how Kohlberg's fucking, what we two and a half years in?

Stephanie 37:51

Yeah.

Dani 37:51

Fuck that guy. Did you see the selfie?

Stephanie 37:55

Yeah. What a fucking creep.

Dani 37:57

Uh, who buttons the top

Stephanie 37:58

button? Trench coat button to the top

Dani 38:03

fucking weirdo. Okay. In February of 1982, smalls trial begins. McKinney refuses to testify and pleads the fifth.

38:15

Mm.

Dani 38:17

There's a, he hasn't. I mean, he was found guilty, but he hasn't been sentenced. It's also his baby mama. Mm-hmm. Even though he said what? She actually killed him'cause she just took the gun and fucking shot him in the hood. On March 4th, after two hours of deliberation, the jury found small guilty of first degree murder conspiracy to commit murder, robbery, and conspiracy to commit robbery. I don't understand all these charges.

Stephanie 38:50

Anyway, they're just trying to get whatever they can, I think,

Dani 38:52

and Idaho does. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 38:54

Like we're gonna just slam you just in case they can't, you know, there's appeals on one thing and it's just

Dani 38:58

a case.'cause it's coming. After the sentencing hearing on March 27th, McKinney was sentenced to death. Ooh. He was also sentenced to fix life for robbery, plus a consecutive 15 years for a firearms enhancement, an indeterminate 30 years for conspiracy to commit murder, and an indeterminate 30 years for conspiracy to commit robbery.

Stephanie 39:24

Wow, we, wow. No, they're like fucking done. Because you think about that, you mean what if you conspire to commit a murder or a robbery and you never do it 30 years for each? Don't you plan a murder ski? It's just a bit, I'm not saying it's wrong because I mean Jesus, but whoa.

Dani 39:47

Yeah. Yikes. Those big time and Penny anti comments came back to, yeah, they came up to show'em. Yeah. You want big time?

Stephanie 39:55

Here's your big time. Here's your big time, bro. You

Dani 39:58

are big time. On June 18th, Debbie Small was sentenced to two life sentences. Yikes. I still don't understand how you can get two life sentences when only one person died, but that's not, I don't. Maybe with more practice. I will understand. The defense says it's excessive because she wasn't there. She didn't actually do the murder, and the prosecution said it's not enough because the guy that sh shot her got death, like had the death penalty.

40:42

Mm.

Dani 40:42

Both of the, both the prosecution and the defense appeal. The conviction,

Stephanie 40:49

they're like, oh, that's too little for you, or That's too much for us. It's too much for us. The prosecution

Dani 40:54

wanted her to have the death penalty.

Stephanie 40:56

Oh, she would've been the first, they were going hard. Yeah.

Dani 40:59

She would've been the first woman up for the death penalty. And as we know, Carla WinDor was it. Mm-hmm. But she, they wanted her,

Stephanie 41:08

she was gonna be the first one.

Dani 41:11

Mm-hmm. So here we are. Pills, appeal pills. and so that was, geez, 82. Okay.

Stephanie 41:21

Okay.

Dani 41:22

In 89, McKinney did have an execution date set, but of course it was stayed.

41:28

Mm-hmm.

Dani 41:31

And there's so many appeal. I'm just gonna highlight a couple, in 1993. McKinney files an affidavit stating that small was innocent and he killed Robert alone.

Stephanie 41:45

Okay. Real convenient for you to say that now.

Dani 41:48

Like it's like 12 years later or something like

Stephanie 41:50

Yeah. Damage is done. Yeah. If that's the truth.

Dani 41:55

Well, I do think that he killed him alone. Mm-hmm. But he was just trying. Because there was testimony that Robert could have survived the gunshot wound.

Stephanie 42:10

So what if they come back and he's like,

Dani 42:12

and then small popped him in the head. Mm-hmm. Four times. That's what actually killed him. but now he's feeling like an asshole because he actually shot him five times for blaming this lady. So. Hmm. in 1999, Joan Fisher comes on the scene. Joan Fisher has been in previous podcasts. Yep. She's represented Brian Langford. Paul Rhodes. We have not done on my list, David Card, not on my list, but, and Timothy Dunlap, which we did. Mm, yes. Because she is a badass. Attorney like she gets, this is her

Stephanie 42:59

wheelhouse.

Dani 42:59

She gets people off death row So Joan Fisher is trying to get McKinney off death row. She wants the conviction voided. And she told the Idaho Supreme Court that McKinney's trial attorney was denied key prosecution information and that he did not get effective legal representation. It's a good route to drive. I, so in my research there was, prosecution notes. Mm-hmm. And one of, remember how hard it was for them to pull the gun? One of the notes said Tighten the barrel. Oh, inside thoughts, sir? Yeah. Interesting. Remember how that that firearms expert was like very impactful. This is the toughest trigger I've ever. So if a

Stephanie 43:52

dog did bite you, you would, you would still have to be. I'm trying

Dani 43:59

their whole thing. I didn't say that. Their whole thing was, they didn't think that small could have up pulled that trigger. She was a tiny woman. That was kind of their

Stephanie 44:13

thing that they were. I hear that, but I can't imagine a trigger too hard to pull even if you've tightened it, like if you wanna pull it,

Dani 44:22

but that's what they were saying. No, I, it's frail woman. Camp and I'm like, uh, In 2009, the court ruled that McKinney was entitled to be re-sentenced due to the ineffective counsel at his capital sentence hearing. and this was all based on not bringing up. Childhood stuff and mm-hmm. You know, that whole rman rule that they do, like, sure, I was abused as a child and I have this issue and that issue. he was not as, his IQ was, he was, I think it was an 86 or an 87 low. But not in the range of incompetence or, right. Okay. So, he had a lot of that going on. but instead of re-sentence, instead of re-sentencing him, the parties agreed to a fixed life term. And I think this might have come from the reason that they decided to take off the death penalty. Eight, it's a hot, hot mess. Mm-hmm. But also, at this point, so much later, and we've seen this in other, cases, they would literally have to do a whole, almost a whole trial trial. To determine. And so they're just like, let's not, and money's a huge, all of these cases that we've been doing, like in, I don't hear about it now as much, but these cases in the eighties and nineties, it was all about the money that these counties were spending. Yeah. And it was, they had to do tax levies to pay for these damn literal tax levies. So you're gonna pay$50 more a year in your taxes. And now the whole county's pissed because we're, they're legally obligated mm-hmm. To defend

Stephanie 46:14

and do a whole new trial,

Dani 46:15

murder dogs, and this guy. so I kind of get that, like, and I don't.

Stephanie 46:25

And with the passage of time. Mm-hmm. I think, I think that prosecution knows that since it isn't fresh, that that might become a factor with a jury like, gosh, this was so long ago. They've already done all this time. Or maybe even they have trouble connecting with the crime because it feels, and people's attitudes changed. It feels like ancient history. It's like. Yeah. I wasn't even born in that time or, so It's hard's hard to connect and

Dani 46:51

people's attitude change about there's not as much heat or not as much, you know? Yeah. They're not pissed off. You're right. They didn't

Stephanie 46:57

see all the, you know, headlines and

Dani 47:01

or know somebody who knew somebody or whatever. Like it's Yes. Theys a separation that happens. Yeah. So like, we're not gonna do that. Let's just agree not to kill you. Mm-hmm. And you're gonna be in prison for life. When he was 19. I know young. That is so crazy. We all know that. That this is not developed yet. No, no. Their brain

Stephanie 47:22

is not developed

Dani 47:23

yet, but, and

Stephanie 47:23

especially being on all the fucking drugs. Mm-hmm. Oh

Dani 47:26

my God. I did stupid shit when I was a kid. You never murdered anybody. But I mean, I can look back and be like. Oh God. God, your

Stephanie 47:35

bravado and the confidence that you have in your decisions, and you know, the ease in which you make a decision. And, but not, okay. No, you

Dani 47:45

can't go.

Stephanie 47:46

Not for the murdering, I mean no over. He could've

Dani 47:49

jacked his, you know, what he could've done? Steal the car, steal, steal the car. He could've left him at the shooting range, took the murder dog and his gun in the car, and took. Because I tail it

Stephanie 48:01

out

Dani 48:01

of there. How many? How many people? Like I'm gonna go to target practice, but I gotta make sure my wallet's in my No, your wallet's in your car. Your purse is in the car. He probably could have just fucking left. Yeah. Said Hey, go set up those bottles. Boop B amounts.

Stephanie 48:18

He's five miles outta town. Yeah. Go pick up your girl and boom, hightail it out of there. And then figure it out once you cross the state lines.'cause she's got a fucking warrant.

Dani 48:28

Yeah. Dumb

Stephanie 48:31

again. Why was this? It's like they were just itching for it. Such a strange, like they just wanted to do it just to do it to be big time.

Dani 48:43

No more penny anti. So strange. I wish I knew what happened to the dog.

Stephanie 48:52

Yeah. Who got custody? Custody of the dog,

Dani 48:55

Annette. And how? It is her daughter. His daughter. They had a baby. Yeah. It's a lot. Can you imagine? my parents are both like, anyway, maybe Kathy, sister Kathy, or sister Ada took care of the baby. Anyway, yeah. We're gonna jump, so 2009, we're gonna jump to 2018. And there's of course still appeals. Appeals, appeals. Mm-hmm. small, I know, went in front of PS and paroles trying to get out. but small did pay with her life. Hmm. small, passed away after an extended illness on March 29th, 2018, she was 64 and she had Parkinson's disease.

Stephanie 49:46

Oh gosh. Imagine being in jail with Parkinson's. I'm not excusing what they did, but that would suck.

Dani 49:54

and I was trying to find like a lengthy obituary. It was basically like a death notice. Very tiny. Okay. But you know what was amazing to me, what there were so many comments really from women who were in prison with her. Oh, and I'm not excusing her behavior by any way, but I think she was kind of like a mom or a grandma to a lot of these young ladies. She's like, there was like comments, uh, that, uh, you, you taught me you know how to be strong and you gave me strength and I didn't know I could have it. I'm just talking about playing cards and like yeah, she was a afraid she was not going anywhere and she was, had been there for such a long time. She was really kind of a rock to a lot of these women, young women, positive women. Impact women. Yeah. As much as she could, even though this shit was wrong. so I just had to share that.

Stephanie 50:59

That's good. I'm glad that you shared that.'cause we all know that jail is not rehabilitative. No. There, there's nothing in there that is going to automatically make you a better person or fix you. It's oftentimes going to teach you to use even more of those negative skills that you may have had with manipulation or, you know, mm-hmm. And doing what you have to do to survive. it's not a place that's going to just make you better. So knowing that at least she was being good to those around her wasn't like running a fucking gang in there or something. Right. Or, you know, being a hellion. So That's good to hear.

Dani 51:37

Um, so yeah, I just thought I. But, you know,'cause I did look her up and I was like, oh wow. I mean a lot. I didn't even get through'em all.

Stephanie 51:45

Wow.

Dani 51:45

There was a lot of, and it was sometimes, like, the last time I talked to you was in 88, the last time I talked to you was in 96. Oh.

Stephanie 51:53

So very generational

Dani 51:55

women going to prison and had met her. Yeah. And

Stephanie 51:58

interacted. Wow. That is so interesting. And

Dani 52:00

she, she found God during, um, her From the night jailer when she was originally, while she was pregnant. and the night jailer introduced her to his wife. Really? And that when she got released during that time when she was pregnant

Stephanie 52:21

mm-hmm.

Dani 52:22

They actually took her in.

Stephanie 52:24

Wow.

Dani 52:25

Yeah. And they, I didn't write any of this stuff down, so it's all from memory, but. They took her in and she found God. She was a, she was a godly woman. and yeah,

Stephanie 52:38

sounds like she

Dani 52:40

was

Stephanie 52:40

trying

Dani 52:40

to

Stephanie 52:40

do, I mean, she turned herself around. It was too late. It was too late. But she was,

Dani 52:45

she was thankful, for those pe She was so grateful. I bet for those people that,'cause she had been a nomad and just searching for something. Her whole life.

Stephanie 52:58

Yeah. Like you said, she was lost. Lost. I not defending

Dani 52:59

her by any means. That's so wrong what happened to Robert. But when you're in that kind of a shitty situation where you're sitting there and somebody offers you something that gives you hope and makes you a better person, whatever it may be. Mm-hmm. Good.

Stephanie 53:16

Yeah, it's good to hear that she made such a positive impact and. It didn't turn like Cree with this fucking slicey dicey shit. Right.

Dani 53:26

It's, it's not like that. Right. So, so she's like, this is my life. I'm gonna take what I got. I'm gonna try to do good with it. Mm-hmm. But still don't be killing people's to do

Stephanie 53:36

in a situation like that

Dani 53:38

And currently in 2025, McKinney is 63 and currently at the Idaho State Correctional Institution.

Stephanie 53:50

Just chilling there. I wonder if he had any interactions with other people that we've

Dani 53:55

Well, probably, yeah, but he was taken off death row in Right, you're

Stephanie 54:01

right.

Dani 54:01

oh nine. So,

Stephanie 54:05

so he could have interacted with Creech though,'cause he's been there for fucking Yeah. Ever.

Dani 54:11

Literally a lifetime. Mm-hmm. Um, anyway, I hope he enjoyed it.

Stephanie 54:17

Interesting story for sure. And just crazy when, you know, you try to put yourself in someone's shoes of what someone was thinking at the time. And this was a wild one for that. I so many parties just being like. Yeah, they're talking about killing someone. He is cleaning his gun saying he is going big time like no one was. Like, the vibes are a little off. Like, are we okay? Let's

Dani 54:42

go get some beer and shoot some pool. Yeah. What did

Stephanie 54:44

you mean

Dani 54:45

by that?

Stephanie 54:46

Where's the gun? So I invited my friend to take you to the interstate like you need and you wanna kill him. Like, were you just, was that a weird joke? No, no one was like

Dani 54:56

laughing. Huh? What was that? Yeah.

Stephanie 55:01

But very, very strange for sure.

Dani 55:04

I wanna thank everybody for listening. Yes. And please review and rate on when, wherever you're listening, that helps us out a lot. Yes. We love

Stephanie 55:12

to see review. You can even leave like comments on Spotify and stuff. Yeah. Just what you thought of the episode or questions you have. Again, you can always email us too. We've been getting more emails lately and we love them. but. The lethal library@gmail.com. Shoot us an email if you have further questions. But anything that you want to go over or have questions on, and we're, we're happy to respond and we might do it on the pod or we might just send you an email however it goes. But yeah, you guys have been awesome We're getting so many funny comments and interaction and we just, we love to see it. So thank you

Dani 55:46

and tell all of your murder mystery friends about us. Word of mouth is the best.

Stephanie 55:51

Yes, yes. Thank you for doing all of that. So anyway, that's what we've got for you today. Uh, ten four rubber ducky. Fuck yeah.