The Lethal Library

20. Love and Lawlessness: The McKinney and Small Story

• The Lethal Library • Episode 20

Share episode

In this episode, hosts Stephanie and Dani recount the disturbing true crime tale of Randy McKinney and Dovey Small. The couple's road trip from Arizona to Idaho in 1981 leads to a senseless murder fueled by drugs, desperation, and delusions of grandeur. Intended to be a quick stop in Malad, Idaho, to visit Small's sisters, the trip escalates into a plot to rob and kill their helpful friend Robert Bishop Jr. The aftermath includes chaotic decision-making, dramatic arrests, a "murder dog", and lengthy legal battles. Join us as we unravel this grim story and reflect on the lost lives and misguided choices.

Contact The Lethal Library at TheLethalLibrary@gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok!

Stephanie:

Alright, welcome back to another episode of the Lethal Library. I'm Stephanie. I'm Danny, and we are here to tell you another tale of true crime that Danny's got prepared for us. quick shout out to listeners that are coming back every week and visiting our TikTok. We love your comments. We love your emails, so. Keep them coming. We love that you love the show. Or even if you don't love the show, you can tell us. But thank you guys for listening. So Danny, what's in store for us today?

Dani:

Don't be the nice guy. Uh oh. For one Idaho man, being the nice guy, got him killed. Do you really know your friend's? Friends? Today I am going to tell you the story of Randy McKinney and Dey Small two Lovers turned murderers. No sources used in today's episode are the South Idaho Press, the Bitch, the Idaho Statesman, love Her and The Times News. Okay, 1981. I Randy McKinney, age 19 and his girlfriend Doy Small 27, arrived in Milad, Idaho on April 6th, 1981. I just, I'm gonna have to, I have to tell you this. I love her name. Do small. It's Debbie Dovey.

Stephanie:

Dovey. Okay. Thank you for clearing that up. I thought it was Debbie. It sounds like small, such a

Dani:

petite, like it belongs like, it's like almost a

Stephanie:

movie star name. Like Yeah,

Dani:

that's what I'm saying.

Stephanie:

That's a very cute name. Um, quite the age gap though. Very confusing with her being much older.

Dani:

So I guess I could just tell you a little bit, about Doy Small. I really didn't have this in the story, Let me tell you, a little bit about her background. she was raised, uh, aroma. She didn't even learn English until she was seven.

Stephanie:

Really? And she was here the whole time. Yeah.

Dani:

In West Virginia. Her father died when she was seven. And some people say he was murdered. this is sad. She also lost her three-year-old daughter in a car accident.

Stephanie:

Oh

Dani:

my God. And it almost killed her as well. She the, she was driving from, so she's from West Virginia. She was driving from West Virginia to Omaha, and she went over 150 foot cliff

Stephanie:

and she survived. Yeah.

Dani:

Her, her pelvis had to be wired together and all of her teeth were knocked out.

Stephanie:

Oh my God. And her

Dani:

daughter died, so I mean, she barely made it. I mean, it's a tragic, it's a tragic thing. And she also. when she was 21, her fiance was killed three weeks before their wedding in 1976. So she, she's been through it, she's been through it. And after her daughter died, drugs and motorcycle games were her

Stephanie:

these damn motorcycle games. That was her

Dani:

out. Yep. so yes, there's an age difference, but I just. I, I think she was a lost soul

Stephanie:

searching for something. Yeah.

Dani:

Yeah. And so she found comfort in and these people that would take care of her and mm-hmm. So she just, she was a vagabond, like just traveling and just Yeah. Fitting in in different places. So.

Stephanie:

Okay. Very interesting.

Dani:

two lines into the story, and I'm already telling you about her anyway. They ended up in Milad after hitchhiking through several states, and they checked into a motel for the night they were in Milad to see small sister Ada Mangum and Kathy Mangu before they continued the travels to Montana. Never could figure out why they were heading to Montana, but that was the end goal.

Stephanie:

Okay.

Dani:

Small sisters lived in Blackfoot, Idaho, about an hour away. I'm just looking at the map. I think that they, they hitched a ride from like Salt Lake City. Oh my

Stephanie:

gosh. Up

Dani:

through, well they originally met in Arizona, McKinney and small. They met in Arizona and they were hitchhiking through up to, Montana, but they wanted to stop here

Stephanie:

in Idaho. How to see the sissies.

Dani:

Yes. and Milad is. About an hour away from Blackfoot, but it's on the trail from, if I, I looked at the map and it's like, oh, they hitched a ride like Salt Lake City area. Right? But small, didn't wanna stay in Idaho for long. She had a felony warrant in the state. Dunno what it was for, but she had a felony warrant. She said,

Stephanie:

yeah, we gotta make it this a quick trip. I just

Dani:

gotta stop and see my sissies. And then we're out the next morning. Ada and Kathy found a friend to drive them to Milad to pick up McKinney and small and bring them back to Blackfoot.

Stephanie:

Okay.

Dani:

When her sisters arrived in Milad to pick'em up from the motel, small showed her sister Ada a handgun that was lying on the table of their motel room. McKinney stated, this is big time. No more penny Andy.

Stephanie:

No more what?

Dani:

Penny Andy. Is that a term I'm not familiar with Auntie. It's, uh, anti up poker. Like, oh, okay. No more penny aunties. Like,

Stephanie:

we're doing the big stuff.

Dani:

Yeah.

Stephanie:

Ooh, okay.

Dani:

It's a, it was kind of a unique thing that he said, and I was like, oh, but auntie is what you do. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie:

Like up the ante. Yeah. And poker. Okay.

Dani:

Later that evening. Ada called her friend. So they, they all went back to Blackfoot.

Stephanie:

Mm-hmm.

Dani:

Like sissies. There was, you know,

Stephanie:

probably very excited for a reunion

Dani:

Ada called her friend Robert Bishop Jr. To see if he would drive McKinney and small to the interstate the next day so they could continue to hitchhike to Montana because they were off the interstate at that point. Mm-hmm. Right in the lab on the way you got up, Blackfoot not on the way. Robert called back the next morning and said, yeah, I can do that for you. Sister Kathy watched as McKinney cleaned his gun while they were waiting for Robert McKinney again stated he was going quote big time and he was going to quote, blow him away. Yeah.

Stephanie:

The person that's coming to get them. Or does she maybe assume that they're robbing places or he doesn't specifically

Dani:

say, it was Robert, but I just think he was talking a lot of shit.'cause he had a gun.

Stephanie:

It sounds like it.

Dani:

And he was 19.

Stephanie:

Yeah.

Dani:

Robert arrived a short time later and McKinney and Small loaded their stuff into the vehicle, the group. So I just wanna make it clear who's here. It's Robert. And McKinney and small, and both of her sisters, ADA and Kathy that got into the car, they dropped Kathy off at her house. So now we're down to, Robert McKinney Small and her sister ate ADA They dropped Kathy at her house and proceeded to the store to buy cigarettes, beer, and soda. Sounds like a good time.

Stephanie:

Yeah. Ready to go.

Dani:

It was decided that they would take the route through Arco Idaho. Towards Montana.

Stephanie:

Okay.

Dani:

They went this way because small needed to make a quick stop in Arco

Stephanie:

For what?

Dani:

She said. A woman, Jackie Willis. Owed her money for a car.

Stephanie:

Damn it, Jackie.

Dani:

And they stopped at a couple of bars in Arco and drank some more beer and played pool. They grouped them packed up and went to the home of Denise Garner. Lots of names, so it's okay. Denise lived with Jackie Willis' son Casey. So it was Jackie's son's, girlfriend's house. Okay. And small had known Casey as 17-year-old convicted felon for a while

Stephanie:

that's young, for being a felon

Dani:

and that he was not in jail.

Stephanie:

Right.

Dani:

small had helped Casey hide from the law a few times.

Stephanie:

So we're all good friends here?

Dani:

Yep. We're besties. Casey said he would show them where his mother Jackie lived. Such a weird dynamic.

Stephanie:

I know. Like,

Dani:

like, oh, you wanna know where my mom is? She owes you money. I'll take you there. Yeah. Y

Stephanie:

bring your gun.

Dani:

I don't know if she said that your mom owe the, owe the money. The, she might've said, take me to your mom. I don't

Stephanie:

know. Yeah. We're all friends. We're all

Dani:

friends here, right? Mm-hmm. Small and Ada rode with Casey in his car, and Robert and McKinney followed to go over to Jackie's house during the drive. Small told Casey that she and Mc McKinney had quote a piece, and if Jackie's husband gave them any trouble, she would blow his crap away.

Stephanie:

They are ready to blow someone away.

Dani:

That's kind of, they're

Stephanie:

almost like itching for it.

Dani:

Yeah. And small earlier had pointed the gun out of the window of the car and shot at a, at a house.

Stephanie:

Oh, we're just casually doing drive-bys now

Dani:

just for shits and gigs and in these small towns.

Stephanie:

I'm surprised they didn't have a bunch of people after'em.

Dani:

So they finally get to Jackie's McKinney took the gun back from small because, quote, he didn't want her to do something stupid.

Stephanie:

I feel like there's a propensity for stupidity from both of these parties, but Sure. Who, whoever's the responsible one in the moment, who's the least drunk?

Dani:

Uh, yeah. In drugs, I'm sure. Drugs. Lot of drugs. So it got heated at Jackie's house. Hmm. When Jackie refused to give small any money.

Stephanie:

Uh oh.

Dani:

Mm-hmm. They left empty handed and went back to Casey and Denise's house. On the drive back, small told Casey that her and McKinney were gonna kill Robert because he had a lot of money, credit cards, and a nice car.

Stephanie:

Oh, so they're gonna take it out on poor Robert. He had nothing to do with this.

Dani:

Exactly.

Stephanie:

You didn't have the balls to shoot someone who did owe you money. I'm not saying they should have, but you talked to all this game, we don't get what we want. And if you feel rightfully owed. You couldn't do it there, but you're just like

Dani:

the guy that gave you a ride.

Stephanie:

Yeah. So strange.

Dani:

Back at Casey's house, Robert sat on the couch in the living room and played around with some of the kids that were there,

Stephanie:

just entertaining the kids. And Ada and Kathy, this is like their friend, right?

Dani:

It's ADA's friend. Yeah.

Stephanie:

And you're just chill, like, oh, everybody's

Dani:

chill.

Stephanie:

Oh, bummer. You're gonna, and he

Dani:

is just probably literally sitting on the, he. He offered to give these guys a ride. Sure. He's kind of now into it like, okay, I'll just hang out and wait until you guys figure out when you wanna leave. That's what I imagine happened.

Stephanie:

And there, like you said, there's some drugs involved, so we're all just having a grand old time. Yeah. He

Dani:

was just chilling, partying. McKinney and Small went into the kitchen. Denise was in and outta the kitchen, but Casey stood nearby and he overheard small tell McKinney that they had to leave the state. Because she has a warrant.

Stephanie:

Yeah. They gotta get outta there. And

Dani:

she just had that altercation at Jackie's.

Stephanie:

They, and they're shooting at houses like, whoopsie. We did some drive-bys on accident. We might wanna leave

Dani:

McKinney said, well, let's go get the job done and get out of here.

Stephanie:

Uh,

Dani:

this is not going well.

Stephanie:

No.

Dani:

Small said quote, Casey owes me one. And then she had asked Casey if he would kill Robert.

Stephanie:

And now you can't even do it after talking all this shit. What's going on here? Casey said, Nope. He's like, uh, yeah, y'all, I, I know. We like to get crazy. I mean, I'm a felon. We like to party, but you're kidding. This is escalating. Why would I kill the, I mean, he's playing with the kids.

Dani:

Yeah. McKinney said he would take Robert out to the desert, shoot him, and then burn the body, and small said quote. That sounds like a good idea.

Stephanie:

Yeah, that that's a totally normal conversation

Dani:

in front of other pe.

Stephanie:

Very brash and. We gotta do what we gotta do. Lots of audacity is happening here.

Dani:

Let's just kill the guy that's giving us a ride to the interstate. So, yeah, burn his

Stephanie:

body in the desert. We know how to do that.

Dani:

I do not know what's going on here, but for some reason, sister Ada called the owner of a local bar, the Antler Club, to let them know they would be down in a few minutes. Are they like special celebrities?

Stephanie:

Maybe they're very popular in this town. They're like, ADA's coming. Or maybe, maybe, I don't know, maybe like, I have

Dani:

never pre-call a bar and said, um, I'm coming.

Stephanie:

We'll be down soon. Please make sure the paparazzi isn't there. Thank you. What is happening? I don't,

Dani:

I don't get it. Don't need

Stephanie:

make it drugs. Maybe they're like, have our cocaine ready. I don't know.

Dani:

Casey and Denise stayed home wisely. Stay home with those kids. Yeah, so yeah, do not go Robert's down. He drove the rest of the group down to the bar and somebody on the drive suggested they go Target shooting with McKinney's gun.

Stephanie:

Obviously as you do, it sounds like this is probably evening time as well, like. Let's go shoot some guns. Maybe even we've had enough of the drive-bys. Let's go. Target shooting.

Dani:

Robert and McKinney left after they dropped small and Sister A off at the bar.

Stephanie:

Hmm.

Dani:

We're gonna go shoot some guns on the desert. We'll be back. Ladies, go have a drink.

Stephanie:

There will be gunshot. I feel

Dani:

15 minutes later, McKinney came back and said, quote, let's go. That was quick. It was very quick. The women saw Robert's car, but he wasn't around. When they asked about Robert McKinney said he had quote, shot him once in the stomach and five times in the head

Stephanie:

Excessive. And also, I mean, so who all's at the bar? So it's, it's small. And her sister Ada. You're saying this in front of Ada, like, did you not like this dude very much? Was this just some guy that was obsessed with you or something, or And Ada was the one that called him? Yeah,

Dani:

ADA called and was like. Hey y'all. Why didn't

Stephanie:

they feel the need to lie and be like, oh, he wasn't feeling good, but said we could still use his car. No,

Dani:

it was just McKinney and Robert. Yeah. That went out to go shoot the gun. So there was four people in the car. McKinney went with Robert to go shoot his gun

Stephanie:

target practice. All, all very weird.

Dani:

It is weird. It's I drug fueled, I imagine. Mm-hmm. Small, and Ada said that they didn't believe him. They're like, you didn't. You didn't shoot him. So McKinney says, Hmm, I'll show you

Stephanie:

weird. Now we're going on a field trip.

Dani:

Field trip. The group drove Robert's car to an old gravel pit just outside of town where they saw Robert lying on the ground. Ada lost it and became hysterical, she said. You take me back to Blackfoot. I am done with this shit. Like she was over

Stephanie:

it. So what did you think of all the previous conversation? I mean, I don't know how you can be like, oh, we're just joking around. We have tons of friends from all different backgrounds and no one's like, ha, you know what? Danny said something to me. I'm gonna take her to a gravel pit and shoot her brains out. And everyone's like, oh, Steph, this joker. Steph. She's so fucking funny. She's cleaning her gun now. She says she's gonna blow her ass away. Oh, now they're going on a field trip. What? Mm-hmm. Like, I mean, I'm glad that someone was like, what the fuck? But Ada,

Dani:

what did you think

Stephanie:

was gonna happen?

Dani:

What? Okay. Small said quote, you didn't have to shoot him. And McKinney replied. Quote, he had proved his love of his woman.

Stephanie:

Okay. Yeah. Y'all are high as fuck because for one, uh, Ms. Smalls, you knew about this. And two, how is that proving your love? I mean, we gotta do what we gotta do right now. We're big time. I told you I was doing the big time. Big time. I'm a certified gangster.

Dani:

So they dropped hysterical sister Ada off at her house in Blackfoot and headed back over to Sister Kathy's house Small, had told her that McKinney had shot Robert. She's like, SIS, my guy here killed Robert. You know, the nice guy playing with the kids and giving us a ride dead.

Stephanie:

Not quote, but how did Kathy react?

Dani:

Well, Kathy then asked. Kathy then asked for Robert's leather jacket and Small gave it to her, and I just want, this was in the context of a memento, a keepsake for him. That's how she was asking for this stuff. So small, gave it to her, but then Kathy also asked for his wallet,

Stephanie:

but they wanted the wallet

Dani:

and they said, no, you cannot have that for a keepsake. Thank you.

Stephanie:

We actually wanted that for our keepsake. Mm-hmm. For a memento. I'm floored.

Dani:

I'm just saying if I found out somebody was shot, I wouldn't be like, and that my sister's boyfriend shot them. I'd be like, can I have a s leather jacket? I love. It's such a nice step. I'd be like, get the fuck outta my house. Well, and why did he, and I'm calling the cops after you leave.

Stephanie:

Ugh. Like, and just that they also had the audacity to tell Kathy after Ada responded so badly, oh. Like, oh, ADA's having a heart attack. Let's tell Kathy too. I'd be like, uh, we got kind of a bad reaction on that one. We, we didn't read the room apparently, so maybe we just don't tell Kathy and we just say, you know, he let us use his car or What the hell

Dani:

So after the wallet denial, McKinney and small drove to Pocatello and used Robert's credit card to buy gas.

Stephanie:

Now they got them cards. They were wanting so bad,

Dani:

they called ADA and said they were coming back to Blackfoot to get Small's dog.

Stephanie:

And you forgot the dog. They are fucked up.

Dani:

Yeah. Oh shit. I forgot the dog. And all this murder business and hysterical sisters and stealing credit cards and buying gas. If you're

Stephanie:

shooting up houses and shooting people, forgot the dogs. You might just, if you forgot the dog, you might wanna cut your loss. At that point, I'd be a little paranoid.

Dani:

I'm gonna tell you, basically this whole scenario was the dog's fault.

Stephanie:

Oh, e,

Dani:

everything. The dog was the murderer.

Stephanie:

That dog, you know, it was holding the, the gun. Um, with his disposable thumbs, you should have seen them. You can train the dog duty just about anything these days. Very talented.

Dani:

So Ada told her husband and his friends about the shooting and the police had already been called, somebody had already called the police. So by the time these yahoos were fucking driving back to get her dog, the cops already knew, like nobody's keeping quiet'cause somebody was rational. Somebody said, ow. Oh, we don't be shooting people

Stephanie:

in a gravel pit. Like and telling, why did they even tell anyone? Like just say that he said, I gotta go home. I'm sick, but use my car. People wouldn't have found out for days maybe. Who knows? But you have to tell this fair. I shot somebody,

Dani:

I shot somebody, I shot somebody. I shot somebody. He's dead. He's dead. That's what they did.

Stephanie:

And then they're telling other people immediately like, yeah,

Dani:

well Ada was fucking hyster. She was,

Stephanie:

that's what's confusing is she sounded like she was very down. Why ended up in that

Dani:

situation, which I, I hoped I would never be in a situation where somebody told me they shot somebody. I would very calm.

Stephanie:

Yes.

Dani:

Oh, take me home. Lock my fucking doors. Tell my husband and call the co. I would be telling my husband. The same time I was telling the police.

Stephanie:

Yeah, absolutely not.

Dani:

No. I'd be like, okay, I'm not hysterical. I'm

Stephanie:

calm. Oh, cool. You're, you're big time,

Dani:

big

Stephanie:

time. No, no. Penny auntie here. Wow. Very cool. Cool story, bro.

Dani:

I'm hungry anyway. I

Stephanie:

I do need to get home though. Uh, thank you. So, got dinner to cook

Dani:

or?

Stephanie:

Yeah. Thank you so much. You gonna wash my hair? Yeah. Bye.

Dani:

So anyways, ADA had

Stephanie:

blabbed

Dani:

blabbed and they, everybody was calling the cops like, Hey. So they were waiting for them to pick up the murder dog. Um, so McKinney and Small were stopped by a police officer outside of ADA's house'cause they were waiting for them. This, this astounded me. McKinney got out of the car and walked straight for the police officer.

Stephanie:

Ugh.

Dani:

It's a small town. Very small. I don't know. I didn't look. I should have looked it up.

Stephanie:

Well, lad's, very tiny and especially, this is in the eighties. Oh, this is an Arco.

Dani:

Oh, okay. Wait, maybe they're in Blackfoot. Blackfoot still. They're foot black one, still tiny, whatever. They're all little. so we got outta the car and walked straight for the officer, and I think that this just took the cop back. Like, he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This isn't how this is supposed to go. Yeah. And so the officer returned to his patrol car probably calling for backup. Yeah. Like, he's like, um, this, um, he walking up to me. He's not running, not scared, he's being aggressive. So when the officer returned to his patrol car, McKinney just walked into Sister ADA's house.

Stephanie:

Nothing to see here. Just getting the dog. They can't murder dog. They can't pull me over. They can't stop me.

Dani:

Small had taken off too. She was later found hiding. And Sister ADA's bathroom. You're not getting away. No,

Stephanie:

they're already

Dani:

there. So, uh, we did take a break.

Stephanie:

We did. We made an oopsie. So if you've noticed a difference in the sound,

Dani:

we left the fan on. Sorry

Stephanie:

about that. Um, because it'd be hot

Dani:

in here,

Stephanie:

it does get hot in here. But if you notice a change, we are, sorry. We're sorry. We don't really wanna rerecord it though, so please forgive us if there is a weird sound quality for the first 25 minutes or so. Our cheapest apologies. We are not revenge at all.

Dani:

And we didn't even

Stephanie:

realize it. No, I cannot believe it. We did not realize it the whole time we're so I just looked at it and was like. Oh, damn it. So anyway, we're back. Hopefully the sound is good for you. Love you guys so much. Thanks for, bearing through that.

Dani:

All right. so when McKinney's in the house, he asked sister Ada what she had told the police and ADA's husband yelled. Quote, what the hell do you think she said? She told the truth

Stephanie:

and now you're coming over here to get your dog like the murder dog. You should have just kept on your merry little way.

Dani:

McKinney responded, quote, well, looks like I'm going for murder.

Stephanie:

I can't believe the cops let him walk in there knowing that they were the. What if he wanted to do a big time and now,'cause he knows he is going and all the drugs involved, he's like, well, pop, pop, pop.

Dani:

I think maybe this is what I'm envisioning, like I've, in my head, like the, the police officer that was sent there was not expecting that reaction. No. And so then can you imagine pulling up on somebody being like, I'm gonna get you. Come talk to me and they're like, I don't give a fuck what you're wearing. I don't give a fuck what badge you are. And just

Stephanie:

boom, boom,

Dani:

and just, yeah, charging at you. Basically, he charged at him and he is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Holy shit. I, Becca, I would've got back in my car too. I'm surprised they didn't already

Stephanie:

have backup I would've been

Dani:

expecting over.

Stephanie:

Well, it's a big police chase.

Dani:

But also maybe they were thinking, oh, it's rumors.'cause they hadn't found a body yet. So they're like, all right. Somebody called and said they shot somebody and we're just gonna go check it out. But I don't know, I just think very strange. It was a small time. Mm-hmm. Small time. City, town, like very tiny.

Stephanie:

Yeah.

Dani:

So. I don't, think that they were expecting that reaction, reaction from McKinney and they weren't prepared for it. No. Clearly, clearly, big time police came into the house and Ada again told the police that McKinney had shot Robert, and I'm imagining a lot of screaming and. Freaking out.

Stephanie:

Well,'cause I'd be like, why did you let him walk in here? Why is

Dani:

he here? I just told you like we told you, and then you just let him walk into our house. Like I'd be scared if I was Ada. Same. But once the police were in the house,'cause he said, you know Yeah. McKinney said, yeah, I'm catching a murder charge. Right. But once the police were in the house, he was like, quote, I didn't kill anybody.

Stephanie:

Now we're finally trying some self preservation here. Okay? Sure, bro. It was

Dani:

the dog. McKinney was placed in custody. They searched Robert's car and found a 22 caliber handgun and a purse. We know it was Small's purse. Mm-hmm. And Robert's wallet small and Ada showed the police where Robert's body was.

Stephanie:

But he didn't kill anybody. How did he know? Right. Robert was only 25. Oh my God. Yeah. And was just trying to be, he thought he was a member of the gang, like our little party. Oh, you need me to help you out, friends, I got you. Yeah. Playing with the kids, driving you around. Probably had a

Dani:

good job. I, I did try to find at least an obit and I couldn't, so I, my apologies. I wish I knew more about him. But he was from Pocatello. That's it. And he was 25. And I hate that'cause I really do. Mm-hmm. Wanna know a little bit more about him. But, I just think he was a good guy. He probably had a decent job and had had enough money to have a car

Stephanie:

and he was like the richer friend in the group or something. Yeah. And thought that he was friends with everyone but. People were talking about killing him hours before his murder, and

Dani:

he's just hanging out. He is like, yeah, I'll give your friends a ride. I'll give what I'll give sister. What a shame. It's bullshit. And I bet you Ada, Phil's so much guilt. Mm-hmm. I don't think that was her intention at all. But also, did you not pick up on the. The clues that was being th big dump and blah, blah, blah. But yeah, I'm

Stephanie:

gonna shoot him. I'm gonna, we're gonna take a card. And she, she should

Dani:

have been

Stephanie:

like,

Dani:

what the fuck?

Stephanie:

Yeah.

Dani:

What are you saying?

Stephanie:

Anyway, psychos

Dani:

McKinney was interviewed by the police later that night. He said he wasn't an Arco, but eventually. He started to cry and said he accidentally shot Robert while they were target shooting. You took them to the body? she did.

Stephanie:

Oh, okay.

Dani:

Small did and Ada sister. Ada did. So he is like, I wasn't, I wasn't even in Arco. Yeah. Okay. Hold on. But then he broke down, started to cry. It was an accident. He blamed. The fucking dog. How he said the little dog was nipping at his heels, but he couldn't remember anything after that. But going back to the bar to get the girls and then showing them the body,

Stephanie:

none of that makes logical sense. Murder dog. If you didn't remember killing someone, how do you remember to take them back and show them where the body is?

Dani:

McKinney was charged with first degree murder, robbery, conspiracy to commit, murder and conspiracy to commit robbery so much,

Stephanie:

no shit.

Dani:

Small was not charged, but she's being held as a material witness.

Stephanie:

Okay.

Dani:

She was finally interviewed and an exchange she will be released. The deposition was in front of McKinney and his attorney cross-examined her.

Stephanie:

That'd be intimidating. Very. Yeah.

Dani:

In September, small is charged with first degree murder. Eating and abetting conspiracy to commit murder and conspiracy to commit. Commit robbery. She was also pregnant with McKinney's child and she was released on September 17th. So part of the reason that she was released was a big pregnant.

Mm-hmm.

Dani:

Uh, they really don't, in these small town, they don't have the facility. No. For.

Stephanie:

A lot of people at all. Right.

Dani:

Uh, let alone a pregnant woman who needs to go to a doctor. Mm-hmm. And all that kind of stuff. but also part of the thing was like, you gotta give us,'cause she's being held like Samara, remember back in Yes. We're just gonna hold you and tell you, tell us something. And so she's like, fine, I will tell you something. So they did do that, and that was a condition of her being released. Not Samira. She was 10 toes down. Oh. She's like, I'm here forever. Yeah, I'll stay in here On November 2nd, 1981, McKinney's trial begins. I just wanna say I'm still amazed how fast they push these trials through.

Stephanie:

Yeah, there are ready to go.

Dani:

A firearms expert, Richard Craven, testified that the weight of the trigger pull. Of the 22 caliber gun was one of the heaviest he'd ever encountered.

Stephanie:

So you have to be really trying to shoot this gun, especially, I think it was six times, five times in the head, one time in the stomach.

Mm-hmm.

Dani:

Well, that was what you're gonna hear a little bit more about from a pathologist, but the gun was passed to the jury so they could test it themselves, which blew my mind. Sitting in a jury box going click, that's a little click, strange click they did. small. Was unable to testify at the trial'cause of the marriage or They were not married. Oh, she was in the hospital due to complications of her pregnancy. Oh. But parts of her deposition were used reused. She literally gave birth during this trial. Oh my gosh. Mm-hmm. a pathologist testified Robert was shot once in the chest and four times in the head at close range. Based on the amount of blood found in Robert's lungs, it was determined that the shots in the head occurred. This is important, five to 10 minutes, up to one to two hours after the chest shot.

Stephanie:

Oh, but he was back in 15 minutes.

Dani:

Just keep that in your pocket.

Stephanie:

Okay.

Dani:

Bullet fragments found during the autopsy were consistent with the ones fired from the gun found in Robert's car. McKinney testified at his own trial. Oof. He said he accidentally shot Robert because Small's murder dog. Was nipping at his pant leg while Robert was setting up the bottles for target practice.

Stephanie:

Why would you be like pointing this gun? This dog is biting my ankle. Ah. Five shots. What? You gotta think of something better than that. Say he attacked you or something. Say he came onto you. Murder dog. The dog was biting my heels, so I had to shoot my acquaintance.

Dani:

I don't know if, if I've ever been target practice, nobody is pointing a gun at the targets while somebody is setting up Said targets. Yeah. That's not how that works, but dude, don't shoot me. I'm just gonna go set up these bottles. How about nobody points the fucking gun up. Yeah. And ready? That's. Anyway. What the fuck? It's a stretch, sir. It's a stretch. More

Stephanie:

than a stretch. I don't even know what to call that. Like I was aiming at the bottles that my friend was placing, pointing a gun at him, and I'd be like, put the fucking gun down, bro. Yeah. What the fuck? Anyone would be like, uh, excuse me.

Dani:

Why are you pointing the gun while I'm setting up? We're not ready. Yeah, not ready. Murder dog. Fuck Jesus. When Robert fell to the ground after being shot, and, and this is McKinney's testimony, right? Mm-hmm. So when Robert fell to the ground after being shot, he went to town and grabbed the ladies.

Stephanie:

Yeah.

Dani:

And like remember, like, mm-hmm. I shut them, blah, blah, blah. They returned to the scene of the crime and small for some reason, just grabbed the gun and she went up and shot Robert in the head several times. Hmm Hmm. McKinney also denied any pre-planned murder slash robbery except for their big time. No more Penny auntie.

Stephanie:

Telling people that you're literally gonna kill this dude to take his credit cards. Yeah, sure. Oh, except

Dani:

for that there's no pre-planned nothing.

Stephanie:

It was the

Dani:

fucking dog.

Stephanie:

Yeah. If that damn dog wouldn't have bit me, I wouldn't have shot my friend.

Dani:

Mm. On November 12th, after three hours of deliberation, the jury came back guilty on all charges.

Stephanie:

Easy peasy. Apparently.

Dani:

Yeah.

Stephanie:

To like, can the dog get

Dani:

convicted? That's 10

Stephanie:

days after the trial starts.

Dani:

Yeah. No, and this, it happened in June. Yeah. In June. That's not how Kohlberg's fucking, what we two and a half years in?

Stephanie:

Yeah.

Dani:

Fuck that guy. Did you see the selfie?

Stephanie:

Yeah. What a fucking creep.

Dani:

Uh, who buttons the top

Stephanie:

button? Trench coat button to the top

Dani:

fucking weirdo. Okay. In February of 1982, smalls trial begins. McKinney refuses to testify and pleads the fifth.

Mm.

Dani:

There's a, he hasn't. I mean, he was found guilty, but he hasn't been sentenced. It's also his baby mama. Mm-hmm. Even though he said what? She actually killed him'cause she just took the gun and fucking shot him in the hood. On March 4th, after two hours of deliberation, the jury found small guilty of first degree murder conspiracy to commit murder, robbery, and conspiracy to commit robbery. I don't understand all these charges.

Stephanie:

Anyway, they're just trying to get whatever they can, I think,

Dani:

and Idaho does. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie:

Like we're gonna just slam you just in case they can't, you know, there's appeals on one thing and it's just

Dani:

a case.'cause it's coming. After the sentencing hearing on March 27th, McKinney was sentenced to death. Ooh. He was also sentenced to fix life for robbery, plus a consecutive 15 years for a firearms enhancement, an indeterminate 30 years for conspiracy to commit murder, and an indeterminate 30 years for conspiracy to commit robbery.

Stephanie:

Wow, we, wow. No, they're like fucking done. Because you think about that, you mean what if you conspire to commit a murder or a robbery and you never do it 30 years for each? Don't you plan a murder ski? It's just a bit, I'm not saying it's wrong because I mean Jesus, but whoa.

Dani:

Yeah. Yikes. Those big time and Penny anti comments came back to, yeah, they came up to show'em. Yeah. You want big time?

Stephanie:

Here's your big time. Here's your big time, bro. You

Dani:

are big time. On June 18th, Debbie Small was sentenced to two life sentences. Yikes. I still don't understand how you can get two life sentences when only one person died, but that's not, I don't. Maybe with more practice. I will understand. The defense says it's excessive because she wasn't there. She didn't actually do the murder, and the prosecution said it's not enough because the guy that sh shot her got death, like had the death penalty.

Mm.

Dani:

Both of the, both the prosecution and the defense appeal. The conviction,

Stephanie:

they're like, oh, that's too little for you, or That's too much for us. It's too much for us. The prosecution

Dani:

wanted her to have the death penalty.

Stephanie:

Oh, she would've been the first, they were going hard. Yeah.

Dani:

She would've been the first woman up for the death penalty. And as we know, Carla WinDor was it. Mm-hmm. But she, they wanted her,

Stephanie:

she was gonna be the first one.

Dani:

Mm-hmm. So here we are. Pills, appeal pills. and so that was, geez, 82. Okay.

Stephanie:

Okay.

Dani:

In 89, McKinney did have an execution date set, but of course it was stayed.

Mm-hmm.

Dani:

And there's so many appeal. I'm just gonna highlight a couple, in 1993. McKinney files an affidavit stating that small was innocent and he killed Robert alone.

Stephanie:

Okay. Real convenient for you to say that now.

Dani:

Like it's like 12 years later or something like

Stephanie:

Yeah. Damage is done. Yeah. If that's the truth.

Dani:

Well, I do think that he killed him alone. Mm-hmm. But he was just trying. Because there was testimony that Robert could have survived the gunshot wound.

Stephanie:

So what if they come back and he's like,

Dani:

and then small popped him in the head. Mm-hmm. Four times. That's what actually killed him. but now he's feeling like an asshole because he actually shot him five times for blaming this lady. So. Hmm. in 1999, Joan Fisher comes on the scene. Joan Fisher has been in previous podcasts. Yep. She's represented Brian Langford. Paul Rhodes. We have not done on my list, David Card, not on my list, but, and Timothy Dunlap, which we did. Mm, yes. Because she is a badass. Attorney like she gets, this is her

Stephanie:

wheelhouse.

Dani:

She gets people off death row So Joan Fisher is trying to get McKinney off death row. She wants the conviction voided. And she told the Idaho Supreme Court that McKinney's trial attorney was denied key prosecution information and that he did not get effective legal representation. It's a good route to drive. I, so in my research there was, prosecution notes. Mm-hmm. And one of, remember how hard it was for them to pull the gun? One of the notes said Tighten the barrel. Oh, inside thoughts, sir? Yeah. Interesting. Remember how that that firearms expert was like very impactful. This is the toughest trigger I've ever. So if a

Stephanie:

dog did bite you, you would, you would still have to be. I'm trying

Dani:

their whole thing. I didn't say that. Their whole thing was, they didn't think that small could have up pulled that trigger. She was a tiny woman. That was kind of their

Stephanie:

thing that they were. I hear that, but I can't imagine a trigger too hard to pull even if you've tightened it, like if you wanna pull it,

Dani:

but that's what they were saying. No, I, it's frail woman. Camp and I'm like, uh, In 2009, the court ruled that McKinney was entitled to be re-sentenced due to the ineffective counsel at his capital sentence hearing. and this was all based on not bringing up. Childhood stuff and mm-hmm. You know, that whole rman rule that they do, like, sure, I was abused as a child and I have this issue and that issue. he was not as, his IQ was, he was, I think it was an 86 or an 87 low. But not in the range of incompetence or, right. Okay. So, he had a lot of that going on. but instead of re-sentence, instead of re-sentencing him, the parties agreed to a fixed life term. And I think this might have come from the reason that they decided to take off the death penalty. Eight, it's a hot, hot mess. Mm-hmm. But also, at this point, so much later, and we've seen this in other, cases, they would literally have to do a whole, almost a whole trial trial. To determine. And so they're just like, let's not, and money's a huge, all of these cases that we've been doing, like in, I don't hear about it now as much, but these cases in the eighties and nineties, it was all about the money that these counties were spending. Yeah. And it was, they had to do tax levies to pay for these damn literal tax levies. So you're gonna pay$50 more a year in your taxes. And now the whole county's pissed because we're, they're legally obligated mm-hmm. To defend

Stephanie:

and do a whole new trial,

Dani:

murder dogs, and this guy. so I kind of get that, like, and I don't.

Stephanie:

And with the passage of time. Mm-hmm. I think, I think that prosecution knows that since it isn't fresh, that that might become a factor with a jury like, gosh, this was so long ago. They've already done all this time. Or maybe even they have trouble connecting with the crime because it feels, and people's attitudes changed. It feels like ancient history. It's like. Yeah. I wasn't even born in that time or, so It's hard's hard to connect and

Dani:

people's attitude change about there's not as much heat or not as much, you know? Yeah. They're not pissed off. You're right. They didn't

Stephanie:

see all the, you know, headlines and

Dani:

or know somebody who knew somebody or whatever. Like it's Yes. Theys a separation that happens. Yeah. So like, we're not gonna do that. Let's just agree not to kill you. Mm-hmm. And you're gonna be in prison for life. When he was 19. I know young. That is so crazy. We all know that. That this is not developed yet. No, no. Their brain

Stephanie:

is not developed

Dani:

yet, but, and

Stephanie:

especially being on all the fucking drugs. Mm-hmm. Oh

Dani:

my God. I did stupid shit when I was a kid. You never murdered anybody. But I mean, I can look back and be like. Oh God. God, your

Stephanie:

bravado and the confidence that you have in your decisions, and you know, the ease in which you make a decision. And, but not, okay. No, you

Dani:

can't go.

Stephanie:

Not for the murdering, I mean no over. He could've

Dani:

jacked his, you know, what he could've done? Steal the car, steal, steal the car. He could've left him at the shooting range, took the murder dog and his gun in the car, and took. Because I tail it

Stephanie:

out

Dani:

of there. How many? How many people? Like I'm gonna go to target practice, but I gotta make sure my wallet's in my No, your wallet's in your car. Your purse is in the car. He probably could have just fucking left. Yeah. Said Hey, go set up those bottles. Boop B amounts.

Stephanie:

He's five miles outta town. Yeah. Go pick up your girl and boom, hightail it out of there. And then figure it out once you cross the state lines.'cause she's got a fucking warrant.

Dani:

Yeah. Dumb

Stephanie:

again. Why was this? It's like they were just itching for it. Such a strange, like they just wanted to do it just to do it to be big time.

Dani:

No more penny anti. So strange. I wish I knew what happened to the dog.

Stephanie:

Yeah. Who got custody? Custody of the dog,

Dani:

Annette. And how? It is her daughter. His daughter. They had a baby. Yeah. It's a lot. Can you imagine? my parents are both like, anyway, maybe Kathy, sister Kathy, or sister Ada took care of the baby. Anyway, yeah. We're gonna jump, so 2009, we're gonna jump to 2018. And there's of course still appeals. Appeals, appeals. Mm-hmm. small, I know, went in front of PS and paroles trying to get out. but small did pay with her life. Hmm. small, passed away after an extended illness on March 29th, 2018, she was 64 and she had Parkinson's disease.

Stephanie:

Oh gosh. Imagine being in jail with Parkinson's. I'm not excusing what they did, but that would suck.

Dani:

and I was trying to find like a lengthy obituary. It was basically like a death notice. Very tiny. Okay. But you know what was amazing to me, what there were so many comments really from women who were in prison with her. Oh, and I'm not excusing her behavior by any way, but I think she was kind of like a mom or a grandma to a lot of these young ladies. She's like, there was like comments, uh, that, uh, you, you taught me you know how to be strong and you gave me strength and I didn't know I could have it. I'm just talking about playing cards and like yeah, she was a afraid she was not going anywhere and she was, had been there for such a long time. She was really kind of a rock to a lot of these women, young women, positive women. Impact women. Yeah. As much as she could, even though this shit was wrong. so I just had to share that.

Stephanie:

That's good. I'm glad that you shared that.'cause we all know that jail is not rehabilitative. No. There, there's nothing in there that is going to automatically make you a better person or fix you. It's oftentimes going to teach you to use even more of those negative skills that you may have had with manipulation or, you know, mm-hmm. And doing what you have to do to survive. it's not a place that's going to just make you better. So knowing that at least she was being good to those around her wasn't like running a fucking gang in there or something. Right. Or, you know, being a hellion. So That's good to hear.

Dani:

Um, so yeah, I just thought I. But, you know,'cause I did look her up and I was like, oh wow. I mean a lot. I didn't even get through'em all.

Stephanie:

Wow.

Dani:

There was a lot of, and it was sometimes, like, the last time I talked to you was in 88, the last time I talked to you was in 96. Oh.

Stephanie:

So very generational

Dani:

women going to prison and had met her. Yeah. And

Stephanie:

interacted. Wow. That is so interesting. And

Dani:

she, she found God during, um, her From the night jailer when she was originally, while she was pregnant. and the night jailer introduced her to his wife. Really? And that when she got released during that time when she was pregnant

Stephanie:

mm-hmm.

Dani:

They actually took her in.

Stephanie:

Wow.

Dani:

Yeah. And they, I didn't write any of this stuff down, so it's all from memory, but. They took her in and she found God. She was a, she was a godly woman. and yeah,

Stephanie:

sounds like she

Dani:

was

Stephanie:

trying

Dani:

to

Stephanie:

do, I mean, she turned herself around. It was too late. It was too late. But she was,

Dani:

she was thankful, for those pe She was so grateful. I bet for those people that,'cause she had been a nomad and just searching for something. Her whole life.

Stephanie:

Yeah. Like you said, she was lost. Lost. I not defending

Dani:

her by any means. That's so wrong what happened to Robert. But when you're in that kind of a shitty situation where you're sitting there and somebody offers you something that gives you hope and makes you a better person, whatever it may be. Mm-hmm. Good.

Stephanie:

Yeah, it's good to hear that she made such a positive impact and. It didn't turn like Cree with this fucking slicey dicey shit. Right.

Dani:

It's, it's not like that. Right. So, so she's like, this is my life. I'm gonna take what I got. I'm gonna try to do good with it. Mm-hmm. But still don't be killing people's to do

Stephanie:

in a situation like that

Dani:

And currently in 2025, McKinney is 63 and currently at the Idaho State Correctional Institution.

Stephanie:

Just chilling there. I wonder if he had any interactions with other people that we've

Dani:

Well, probably, yeah, but he was taken off death row in Right, you're

Stephanie:

right.

Dani:

oh nine. So,

Stephanie:

so he could have interacted with Creech though,'cause he's been there for fucking Yeah. Ever.

Dani:

Literally a lifetime. Mm-hmm. Um, anyway, I hope he enjoyed it.

Stephanie:

Interesting story for sure. And just crazy when, you know, you try to put yourself in someone's shoes of what someone was thinking at the time. And this was a wild one for that. I so many parties just being like. Yeah, they're talking about killing someone. He is cleaning his gun saying he is going big time like no one was. Like, the vibes are a little off. Like, are we okay? Let's

Dani:

go get some beer and shoot some pool. Yeah. What did

Stephanie:

you mean

Dani:

by that?

Stephanie:

Where's the gun? So I invited my friend to take you to the interstate like you need and you wanna kill him. Like, were you just, was that a weird joke? No, no one was like

Dani:

laughing. Huh? What was that? Yeah.

Stephanie:

But very, very strange for sure.

Dani:

I wanna thank everybody for listening. Yes. And please review and rate on when, wherever you're listening, that helps us out a lot. Yes. We love

Stephanie:

to see review. You can even leave like comments on Spotify and stuff. Yeah. Just what you thought of the episode or questions you have. Again, you can always email us too. We've been getting more emails lately and we love them. but. The lethal library@gmail.com. Shoot us an email if you have further questions. But anything that you want to go over or have questions on, and we're, we're happy to respond and we might do it on the pod or we might just send you an email however it goes. But yeah, you guys have been awesome We're getting so many funny comments and interaction and we just, we love to see it. So thank you

Dani:

and tell all of your murder mystery friends about us. Word of mouth is the best.

Stephanie:

Yes, yes. Thank you for doing all of that. So anyway, that's what we've got for you today. Uh, ten four rubber ducky. Fuck yeah.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Dani

Host
Head Shot

Stephanie

Host