48. Beyond Borders: Thomas's Murders That Spanned the Globe

Join Dani and Stephanie as they chat about the chilling tale of Jimmie Vurel Thomas, a notorious figure whose criminal escapades span three locations and three decades. From the mysterious murder of a horse trader in 1977 California to a jail-breaking kidnapping in Idaho, and finally a chilling case in South Africa, we cover every wild twist and turn. Was he Mr. Worldwide or Mr. Why-Didn’t-You-Just-Stop? Tune in to hear about botched investigations, courtroom dramas, and the ultimate downfall of a man who had more second chances than any criminal deserves. Seriously, folks, this guy makes the average true crime subject look like a choir boy.

Contact The Lethal Library at TheLethalLibrary@gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok!

Transcript

Dani 0:00

In August, 1977, a nationally known horse trader was found shot to death along a rural road in northern California. Nearly 20 years later, a southern Idaho farmer was gunned down inside his house and a man is found shot to death in South Africa. This story is international baby Mr. Worldwide. Mr. Worldwide, can we get Pit Bull in here? Hmm.

Stephanie 0:59

Alright everyone, welcome back to the Lethal Library. I'm Stephanie. I'm Danny, and we're here with you. Another story of True crime out of Idaho and South Africa and California.

Dani 1:11

Just saying

Stephanie 1:12

we are covering some mileage in this one. Clearly. Yeah, I'm very interested to know. I couldn't believe I did not know

Dani 1:22

about this one. I was like, are you fucking kidding me? Here we go.

Stephanie 1:27

Is there like a Dateline or anything on it?

Dani 1:30

Not that I could find,

Stephanie 1:32

because this just sounds wild. Just from that very brief intro of like what's happening

Dani 1:39

exclusively here on the lethal library.

Stephanie 1:42

We think maybe, who knows?

Dani 1:44

Correct us if we're wrong.

Stephanie 1:45

Yeah.

Dani 1:46

If someone else has done it. No, I didn't see, in my research,'cause you know, I, I am doing the digging deep mm-hmm. In the newspapers. but I do just do a Google search, on not only the criminal

Stephanie 1:57

mm-hmm

Dani 1:58

but also the victims. Just to see if I can dig up anything else.

Stephanie 2:03

Right.

Dani 2:03

Um, and you know, mostly I come up with some court cases and stuff, but nothing was, and occasionally, very rarely other podcasts because of how we're so,

Stephanie 2:14

mm-hmm.

Dani 2:14

just sitting right here. But, no, nothing else.

Stephanie 2:19

So maybe in exclusive folks. I'm excited.

Dani 2:22

I'm just saying this would make a great date line.

Stephanie 2:25

Really?

Dani 2:25

Yeah.

Stephanie 2:26

Date line. Tune in. We might send this to Keith Morrison.

Dani 2:29

Mm-hmm. Personally anyway.'cause

Stephanie 2:32

Keith, Keith is my favorite. They're all great.

Dani 2:35

Hands down.

Stephanie 2:36

No one does interviews like Keith Morrison. No one.

Dani 2:41

No.

Stephanie 2:42

He is so slyly. Passive aggressive and really, and yet, may, may I even say like a Mitch Cunty, like, I

Dani 2:51

love it.

Stephanie 2:52

He just, he, it's like,

Dani 2:54

you're not fucking lying to me.

Stephanie 2:55

Where a lot of times people don't even realize that he's being facetious and they're like, blah, blah, blah. And he's like. Well, tell me how that would work. Like,

Dani 3:05

I fucking,

Stephanie 3:05

oh, he's so good. Gosh. bless him. Love you.

Dani 3:08

Someday day ever grow up, just saying. Right. And his voice,

Stephanie 3:14

you can't beat it.

Dani 3:16

No.

Stephanie 3:16

And I love that he loves the SNL skits of him. Mm-hmm.

Dani 3:20

And

Stephanie 3:20

that he's a good sport about it. Oh, that's terrible. And then she was dismembered. Oh no, that's awful. Like everything about Keith Morrison

Dani 3:33

big fan.

Stephanie 3:34

Huge, huge fan.

Dani 3:38

sources used today for this episode are the Times News Idaho Statesman, that Bitch.

Stephanie 3:45

Mm-hmm.

Dani 3:46

The Modesto Bee, the Sacramento Bee, Gault Herald, and Times Herald.

Stephanie 3:53

Wow. Wow. You really had to get into it. For this

Dani 3:55

one, I was searching other states because,

Stephanie 3:58

no kidding.

Dani 3:58

I had to, no kidding.

Stephanie 3:59

In South Africa, apparently,

Dani 4:02

I will say disappointingly, they must have not have been recording the newspapers in South Africa because I could not find anything. And

Stephanie 4:12

any local stuff.

Dani 4:13

Yeah, nothing local stuff. So this is all stuff coming back. Oh. fed through some of these other newspapers in California, Nevada, and Idaho. So,

Stephanie 4:22

hell yeah. I'm, this is, I'm very curious on this one.

Dani 4:27

Let's go on the morning of August 20th, 1977. Deputies in San Joaquin County, California, were called to a rural stretch of Johan Road, just off lower Sacramento Road, north of the small farming community of a Campo. My apologies if I say any of these things wrong.

Stephanie 4:52

we're doing our best.

Dani 4:53

I get, well, I'm gonna be judgy Mc judgy because I'm, if I listen to a podcast about some place in Idaho and I know how it's supposed to be pronounced, or Oregon. I'm like, dude, look it up. And I did not look it up. So I'm just saying fair to judge me. I'm gonna do the best I can.

Stephanie 5:11

We will try. And can I also just tell you, since we were on the Keith Morrison kick, he did one of the Dateline originals, it's like a five or six, six episode. One about a gal that, she went and recorded for a kid rock music video, and then was like murdered in a parking lot. I can't, it's, it's called like the Girl in the Blue Mustang or something. Of course it's great. You know, Keith Morrison's on it, but he says, kid Rock known for his hit, Tiba. And I, I lost it. And I listen, I listen in

Dani 5:45

Beba,

Stephanie 5:46

I listen in my car and it became my vocal stem of like Beba Beba. It was just he, I love that how he said it. And imagine Keith Morrison Bba, like it was just fucking priceless. So. And I'm sure that some people were like mad about it, but I was like, he can, he can say it however he wants to say it. I didn't give a shit. Well,

Dani 6:07

Keith Morrison

Stephanie 6:08

and Keith Morrison,

Dani 6:09

humble. Danny, if I fuck it up, I'm apologizing in advance. Right. I did not look up every word of this so

Stephanie 6:15

well, and sometimes you get like four to you try to look up how it's pronounced and you still get four answers. And what do you

Dani 6:21

do? Oh, and there's gonna be a name in here that I am not gonna be able to say. And I'm gonna have Stephanie look at it. I'm not, I still will not be able to say it. So

Stephanie 6:31

that's coming. We can promise, promise you will do our best. And we try and we are open. If, if, you know, you can tell us.

Dani 6:39

Yeah. But talk open to criticism here. probably will fail. So we are outside of the farming community of a camp a campo Jesus.

Stephanie 6:51

That sounds right. I like it.

Dani 6:53

Lying on the side of the road was the body of a man who had been shot repeatedly. He had no wallet, no cash, and no identification. Authorities named him as a John Doe.

Stephanie 7:05

Mm-hmm.

Dani 7:07

Detectives quickly concluded the man had not been killed where he was found.

Stephanie 7:13

Oh,

Dani 7:14

the initial examination showed he had been shot multiple times at close range with a small caliber weapon, and the scene itself had little evidence. There were no identifying papers, no vehicle nearby, and no witnesses.

Stephanie 7:28

That's a tough one.

Dani 7:31

By Sunday, August 21st, nearly simultaneous phone calls came into the San Joaquin County Sheriff's Department. One came from the motel staff in Lodi, California. Another came from Missouri. The calls identified the man as George Douglas Stone, age 33. A nationally known appaloosa horse dealer, and a showman who had traveled to California to attend a coal auction in the rural town of Herald. George had flown into California from Kansas City earlier that week and had been staying at the Lodi Motel while visiting horse ranches in the Sacramento Valley.

Stephanie 8:11

That was quite a jaunt. No shit. And Can I say it first? I thought you, I thought you said a cult. Auction. And that was like, what? With the occult? Or like a cult? Like an actual cult. And then my brain was like, hello, Stephanie, a cult. He's a, a horse trader. A cult.

Dani 8:27

A cult.

Stephanie 8:28

COLT. Anyway, so

Dani 8:31

it's'cause your brain's very murdery thinking.

Stephanie 8:34

I'm like, oh, it's a cult. A cult.

Dani 8:36

Oh, he's going to an a cold auction.

Stephanie 8:38

Oh, didn't really have those fair. What are we ing Fair. Anyway, get with it, Steph.

Dani 8:46

George was well known in the appaloosa world. Deputies described him as one of the best in the business, a trader whose reputation carried weight far beyond California. He dealt almost exclusively in appaloosas, buying, training, boarding, and selling horses for clients across the country. Probably clients with money too.

Stephanie 9:06

Oh yeah. Horses, big money.

Dani 9:09

People who knew him said his, his success depended on trust. Deals were often made by word of mouth, not by written contracts. And in my research it said that, they didn't do big contracts. It was a lot of cash. Transactions because back in the day, this is the seventies, you weren't verifying funds. Right. So people didnt wanna write checks and then have to wait for the transaction. Like if you're going to an auction and you wanna buy a horse, you wanna take it home. Mm-hmm. You don't want to, you know, hook up two weeks later after the check is cleared.

Stephanie 9:45

Yeah.

Dani 9:45

And also don't know if I would wanna write a check without taking home the product, the horse. Right?

Stephanie 9:51

Mm-hmm.

Dani 9:51

So can you imagine? No. So a lot of cash dealings, with a lot of these guys. Yeah. George had been reported missing by his fiance and business partner. Dixie Ker after he failed to return to Kansas City is scheduled. Dixie told investigators, she became alarmed when George never called after arriving in California and then missed his return flight.

Stephanie 10:17

And that's tough to even find out anything in like the seventies, there's no cell phones. You might be able to be like, Hey, here's my hotel room number. You can call there. But then if they're not there, I mean he's there wheeling and dealing. He's doing business. So there's just no way to quickly check in.

Dani 10:36

In fact, people didn't reserve a lot. You just showed up and got a room.

Stephanie 10:40

Mm-hmm.

Dani 10:41

That's really what it was. That's

Stephanie 10:42

how it went. Yeah.

Dani 10:43

Yeah. Around the same time, staff at the Royal Host and in Lodi told deputies one of their guests matching the description of the unidentified body had not been seen since Friday night. What George identified. Detectives begin reconstructing his final days. George had arrived in California on Thursday, August 18th, 1977. He flew into the Sacramento airport, and this is classic, but he was unable to rent a car because he insisted on paying cash.

Stephanie 11:18

Oh.

Dani 11:19

well if you think back in the seventies, not everybody had credit cards.

Stephanie 11:24

Mm-hmm.

Dani 11:24

Right? Uh, rental agencies required a credit card. Something George avoided. He was a cash guy,

Stephanie 11:32

old school,

Dani 11:34

so he contacted Ronald Kavanaugh, a Harold Auctioneer who was staging the Saturday Appaloosa Cult Cell. Cult Horse.

Stephanie 11:43

Thank you. Dear

Dani 11:43

me, not cult. Cult Cell Georgia planned to attend that weekend. Ronald drove George from the airport and took him to a motel in Lodi for the night. He's like, I got you. Let's get you settled in. And obviously these guys knew each other, you know, being, I'm sure this horse business mm-hmm. Uh, was probably pretty inclusive.

Stephanie 12:05

You got connections. Yeah.

Dani 12:07

On Friday, August 19th, George VI visited the Ronald Ranch and inspected two coals he intended to buy. He then traveled to several other horse ranches in the area. That evening, he met with two friends from Bakersfield for dinner in Lodi. Afterward, he returned to his motel room around 9:00 PM and the Bakersfield couple retired to another room in the same motel. So dinner off Friday night. Thanks. It was good. Got the big auction tomorrow. Gonna head to

Stephanie 12:37

bed. That's pretty standard.

Dani 12:38

Yeah, right. Gotta go to bed. Sometime within the next three and a half hours, George was murdered. His body was discovered just after midnight Saturday morning along Johan Road, across the county line in San Joaquin County. He had been shot six times.

Stephanie 12:58

Ooh,

Dani 12:58

four bullets to the head and two to the body with a 22 caliber firearm.

Stephanie 13:05

Well overkill,

Dani 13:06

way excessive. When deputies searched George's body. Okay. Like I said earlier, they didn't find any wallet, no cash, no identification. Investigators soon learned that George was known for carrying large amounts of cash.

Stephanie 13:23

Oh, I bet. That doesn't surprise me.

Dani 13:26

According to multiple reports, he'd arrived in California with at least$3,500. Detectives determined later that he had been carrying as much as$10,500.

Stephanie 13:38

Oh, damn.

Dani 13:38

The night he disappeared, friends told. Authorities. George had recently completed a deal after arriving in California that netted him another$7,000 in cash, which is how we get to over 10 grand. And this is in 77. Like

Stephanie 13:52

yeah, big money.

Dani 13:55

I should have done the math on that, but it would be in today's money. Let's look. Okay, let's do it. looked it up. Are you ready?

Stephanie 14:03

Yes.

Dani 14:05

$56,000.

Stephanie 14:09

Imagine carrying that much money.

Dani 14:10

I would.

Stephanie 14:11

That's terrifying.

Dani 14:13

I want security

Stephanie 14:16

just walking around. Mm-hmm.

Dani 14:19

Okay.

Stephanie 14:20

Not for me. Can I tell you that once my sis, my sister used to work in a bank and one time I, it was like, bring your daughter to work. But obviously she was younger, so she's like, well, I'll bring my little sister to work. And they let me go into the big safe and like count a bunch of money, like put it through the money counters. And everyone was like, isn't this fun? And I was not having fun. I didn't like outwardly show it, but I was ter just holding that much money. I was like, it just felt like. What? I know it sounds so irrational. What if I accidentally steal a thousand dollars? Like, you know, it was so, and I would never do that, but I was like, what if something happens and they think I stole money, like I shouldn't be around this. It just felt so wrong to me. I'd never handled that much money in my life. So thinking about carrying$56,000 or whatever it was in cash, that terrifies me. Ooh, no,

Dani 15:13

no, thank you.

Stephanie 15:14

Not for me.

Dani 15:16

George was not wealthy, but he liked to flash money when he had it.

Stephanie 15:21

Mm.

Dani 15:21

A Missouri friend told, detectives, he sometimes paid for a cup of coffee with a hundred dollars bill.

Stephanie 15:26

Oh, and that's big stuff.

Dani 15:28

Yeah.

Stephanie 15:28

That's like a dollar. Less than a dollar

Dani 15:31

probably. No, it's like 50 cents. Yeah. Probably 25 cents. And he is like, I'm gonna need some change.

Stephanie 15:36

And you're just pissing people off when you think, I know the wait. Like all my, all my money, we're gonna have to go to the bank and cash this out.

Dani 15:45

Robbery was quickly determined to be the leading motive. No shit has deputies expanded their search. A farmer made a significant discovery.

Stephanie 15:56

Oh.

Dani 15:57

on a remote site between Galt and Rancho Secco near Harold. The farmer found George's bloody hat and several empty shell casings detectives determined this was likely the actual murder site. Yeah, for

Stephanie 16:13

sure. Yeah. That's crazy.

Dani 16:15

Uh, and for the record, I just had to repeat that sentence like four fucking times'cause I couldn't say shell casings. I was not doing well. She

Stephanie 16:25

wasn't pleased about it. that might

Dani 16:26

look for the outtakes on

Stephanie 16:27

TikTok. Maybe the bloopers. Yeah, that, that'd be a good one. She was staring at the camera like it was the camera's fault and I was like,

Dani 16:34

it was somebody's fault. It wasn't mine. Yeah.

Stephanie 16:37

Who's responsible for this? Okay,

Dani 16:41

I am sorry.

Stephanie 16:43

That was fucking funny.

Dani 16:45

By Monday, August 22nd, detectives. Publicly said they were focusing on the missing cash, but they also acknowledged another possibility. Investigators had received information that George May have been warned to stay out of California from possible issues with a past horse deal.

Stephanie 17:04

I can imagine this being very soap opera ish.

Dani 17:08

They said they were not discounting the possibility that the killing was connected to a dispute rather than a random robbery.

Stephanie 17:16

Someone may have had it out for him.

Dani 17:18

Look, I'm just saying George was going to bed. Mm-hmm. He was done for the night. He's traveled. He went and did his business. He was businessing on Friday, visited all these ranches, had dinner with some friends. Probably a couple of drinks and went to bed. Why did he leave his hotel room? What would draw him out after nine o'clock at night when he had his big cult auction the next day. That was just for you

Stephanie 17:49

and he's, he's a businessman, it sounds like. No, he's in it to win it. He is doing all the things. He's not gonna miss it.

Dani 17:56

No, he's not gonna miss it. He's not leaving his hotel room for just no reason.

Stephanie 18:01

Mm-hmm.

Dani 18:02

Uh, after nine, look, nine o'clock I turn into a fucking pumpkin, even if I have nothing to do to the next day. So

Stephanie 18:09

she's being generous. It's really easy. She'll, she'll allow it Occasionally. 9:00 PM

Dani 18:15

Look, I just respect

Stephanie 18:17

the sleepy. That's okay. And I, it's good for me because I just wanna stay up forever. And then I hate myself the next morning, so I benefit from this.

Dani 18:26

I cut stuff off.

Stephanie 18:27

Mm-hmm. It's good.

Dani 18:28

I literally shall be dead.

Stephanie 18:29

Someone has to be the adult in the room and I'm standing.

Dani 18:32

She'll literally be standing in my kitchen and I'll be like, going to bed. Bye.

Stephanie 18:35

Yeah. And she's gone

Dani 18:37

and I leave her.

Stephanie 18:37

You won't see her?

Dani 18:38

No.

Stephanie 18:39

Mm-hmm.

Dani 18:39

Done. So? No. There was something that drew George out.

Stephanie 18:43

Yeah.

Dani 18:44

What could it be? George's clothing was eventually identified based on descriptions from people who saw him last. Like I said, he was last seen, alive Friday night.

Stephanie 18:55

Mm-hmm.

Dani 18:55

George was wearing jeans, a western shirt, western boots, and a western style hat.

Stephanie 19:00

No surprise. Very

Dani 19:01

fitting, very western. When his body was found, the boots and hat were missing. So that's where the farmer

Stephanie 19:12

found, right? Found the hat. Yeah. Were his boots found as well? Or maybe they

Dani 19:15

still

Stephanie 19:15

Yes,

Dani 19:16

they were.

Stephanie 19:16

Okay. I was like, they,

Dani 19:18

no, the boots were found there too. Just.

Stephanie 19:20

I

Dani 19:20

didn't write

Stephanie 19:21

it down. Why did they take his boots off?

Dani 19:24

That is weird actually. I haven't thought about that. The hat's easy.

Stephanie 19:28

Yeah. Fell off. I mean, poor guy was shot four times in the head.

Dani 19:34

I don't know why. Why would,

Stephanie 19:39

maybe they were thinking of where to dump him and thought like. Maybe they thought they were gonna strip him all the way.

Dani 19:45

That's what I'm thinking. They probably thought they were. He was gonna strip him all the way. I was like, no.

Stephanie 19:49

Right.

Dani 19:52

For several weeks, detectives worked without a name suspect. Sergeant Joseph Gomes of San Joaquin County Sheriff's Department told reporters the robbery motive remained the strongest angle, but no arrest for pending.

Stephanie 20:09

Yeah. This is a tough one. There's just not a lot of No.'cause, I mean, obviously this is way before DNA anyway, but when you have someone that's no shot out in the middle of nowhere, there's no cameras, no cell cell phones.

Dani 20:24

Phones. There's no

Stephanie 20:25

internet, no hotel lobby gal that's like, oh, so and so asked where his room was or whatever. There's just. N

Dani 20:32

nothing.

Stephanie 20:34

Yikes.

Dani 20:34

That's why people be getting away with shit in the seventies

Stephanie 20:36

and eighties. Oh, they were getting away with it.

Dani 20:39

There's no ring count.

Stephanie 20:40

Preach how It's all, there's a lot of reasons why preach got away with everything but f word. Why did I fuck get a girl? Who am I censoring for?

Dani 20:54

Uh,'cause if you know, you know

Stephanie 20:56

mm-hmm.

Dani 20:58

On October 4th, 1977. So. It was about six weeks later, Sheriff's deputies arrested Jimmy Rell, Thomas

Stephanie 21:08

fucking Jimmy,

Dani 21:09

age 34 at his ranch in Harold Thomas was charged with the murder of George Stone. Deputies executed an all day search warrant at the ranch, collecting evidence.

Stephanie 21:23

Ranches are usually huge too. I know outbuildings and, oh, fuck

Dani 21:26

yeah,

Stephanie 21:27

just yeah.

Dani 21:30

Thomas was a horse trader himself. Like George, he dealt in appaloosa horses. He bought train boarded and transported horses across the country. According to Detective Wayne Brime Thomas projected an image of wealth and status. So I just wanna make this little correlation here. George was very flashy and so was this guy, and I bet you there was some ego involved in that.

Stephanie 22:02

Oh yeah, yeah. No, this is there in the big leagues for their industry. Mm-hmm. Ego's a big part of it,

Dani 22:12

that persona. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 22:13

Because

Dani 22:13

when you're, I think that when you're dealing with selling and trading of anything, if you're like a wheeling and dealing guy, you wanna project success, you're not gonna show up there, you know?

Stephanie 22:24

Mm-hmm.

Dani 22:24

In, in slumpy work jeans and be like, yeah, I know a lot about horses. No, they're, they're doing up the dues. They want it. They wanna look good. And so both of these guys feel like there was a little maybe competition beyond.

Stephanie 22:38

Right,

Dani 22:39

just like I'm better than you kind of thing. So I

Stephanie 22:41

can see that. Uh, Thomas owned fancy vehicles and had an elaborate tractor trailer set up to haul horses, and that's where a lot of people don't know the money that goes into like big equipment and farming equipment, this stuff is not cheap.

Dani 23:02

And also if you're spending. Several thousands of dollars. I mean on, on a thing, you know, a horse or a thing to have it, to have it show up at a fancy horse trailer or to have somebody come and buy something from you and they have like a fancy truck.

Stephanie 23:19

Mm-hmm.

Dani 23:20

You're like, oh, this is guy's legit. Yeah. So I'm sure it was very much part of the sales. Like, oh yeah, I found the perfect horse for you. Oh, by the way, look at my getup. You know I'm legit.

Stephanie 23:30

Mm-hmm. Yes. A legitimize. It's a way to, it's more of like how people think of quiet luxury today, like. The whole like rural farming communities, there's different signs and statuses of wealth

Dani 23:42

Absolutely.

Stephanie 23:43

That most people wouldn't understand. But if you're in there, you're like, oh shit, he's got one of them.

Dani 23:50

Yes. Uh, but prosecutors later said Thomas was deeply in debt. Oh. Thomas was arraigned on a murder charge in Lodi municipal court. The San Joaquin County district's attorney's office announced it was considering seeking the death penalty. This is California. So California had just recently reinstated capital punishment, and this would be one of the first cases tried under the new law, which allowed the death penalty when a murder occurred during a robbery.

Stephanie 24:26

Oh, okay.

Dani 24:27

So this is where they reinstated it. And California's been back and forth. I dunno the whole history about that, but I know they've had it, not had it, had it, not had it. So, um, we all know how the death penalty has worked out for the state of Idaho. So

Stephanie 24:40

an absolute shit show.

Dani 24:42

investigators alleged Thomas and George had done business together shortly before his death. According to prosecutors, Thomas had written George a bad check for$7,500 in the past.

Stephanie 24:57

Yikes.

Dani 24:58

And on August 19th, Thomas was supposed to meet George again, I'm assuming to fix his little problem.

Stephanie 25:06

Whoopsie his little mistake,

Dani 25:08

his little bad check probably.

Stephanie 25:09

And now that we know how much$10,000 was like seven was probably like what, 30, 40,000?

Dani 25:15

Yeah. And that would be a reason to draw George out of his hotel room after nine o'clock. Yeah.

Stephanie 25:22

Let me go get my money.

Dani 25:24

Uh, I'm definitely getting up. You wanna meet at 3:00 AM Little sketch, but I'm coming to get my money.

Stephanie 25:29

Yeah.

Dani 25:30

Or you come to me? I would, yeah. No. Okay. I'd probably say no at 3:00 AM'cause then I know I'd be probably getting murdered'cause I do this too much, you

Stephanie 25:37

know? Yeah.

Dani 25:38

If you know, you know,

Stephanie 25:39

we know a thing or two

Dani 25:40

about a

Stephanie 25:40

thing or two. Yeah.

Dani 25:41

But he wanted his money and so

Stephanie 25:44

he's like, yeah, gimme my money.

Dani 25:48

According to Deputy District Attorney Michael Baki. I love that last, that's cute.

Stephanie 25:53

Haki

Dani 25:54

Thomas's teenage son told investigators that Thomas's pistol had been in his truck until shortly before he left to meet George. The boy said George had called the house and Thomas told his son he was going to meet him.

Stephanie 26:10

Mm-hmm.

Dani 26:12

And that same day, George had just sold a horse and was carrying that extra$7,000 in cash. Right. Bank records showed a$7,000 deposit was later made into Thomas's account.

Stephanie 26:26

Honey, why are we putting it in the bank? Why aren't we just using cash? Using the cash? Why are

Dani 26:32

we Because it didn't have fucking Dateline back then, right?

Stephanie 26:35

Who's gonna know this isn't suspicious?

Dani 26:39

Don't be suspicious. Thomas initially denied ever owning a gun like the murder weapon. Investigators later proved.

Stephanie 26:49

That was a lie.

Dani 26:50

Thank you. Yes.

Stephanie 26:53

It's like the Maori show. I know. I love that shit. Maury, another legend. Another absolute legend.

Dani 27:01

I love him.

Stephanie 27:03

Bring it back. Remember when you would have a sick day and you get to watch all the, all the trashy TV shows? Mm-hmm. And stuff.

Dani 27:11

What a time are you stayed up late and watch Jerry Springer. Oh,

Stephanie 27:13

and you weren't supposed to?

Dani 27:15

No. So good.

Stephanie 27:17

Those were the days. So good.

Dani 27:20

The case against Thomas was largely circumstantial, but expansive.

Stephanie 27:26

I bet

Dani 27:27

Detectives had more than 2,500 pages of evidence. They were. They

Stephanie 27:33

were

Dani 27:33

detective. They even drained a lake, searching for the murder weapon, but never found it. They drained it. Wow. I didn't ha, I couldn't find any more. Just listen to this. They did locate a similar pistol with the next consecutive serial number. You know what I'm thinking? That somebody didn't write the serial number down. Right, right. When they were registering

Stephanie 28:00

because what a KY dink is that

Dani 28:02

Yeah. That's mm-hmm. At one point, Sheriff's, deputies even consulted a psychic.'cause that was a thing

Stephanie 28:10

that has happened in recent cases.

Dani 28:12

Really? No shit. I,

Stephanie 28:15

I just was, it was a Dateline one where, and I think it was like nineties or early two thousands where they were like, what the, they're at such a dead end. They're like, what if this could be the thing that leads us to a piece of violence? I guess it doesn't

Dani 28:30

hurt.

Stephanie 28:31

Yeah.

Dani 28:32

Even though they consulted that psychic, none of that information, of course, was used in court and I don't, I really don't seem to harm in it as long as they're not out, you know? Right. They can't use it in court, but what if, what if,

Stephanie 28:46

what if it led you to something Yeah. Tangible that you could use

Dani 28:49

no harm, no foul.

Stephanie 28:50

Mm-hmm.

Dani 28:50

Just

Stephanie 28:50

a lot of times the families will get them too.

Dani 28:53

Mm-hmm. In March, 1978, the trial started. It lasted 13 weeks.

Stephanie 29:01

No shit.

Dani 29:02

And I'm telling you kids, 13 weeks. And there is no like cell phone evidence, no video evidence. No,

Stephanie 29:10

that's what I'm saying. The 2,500 pages of evidence, and especially back then, a lot of detectives weren't detective. They're like, if I don't, if I don't have a smoking gun, if I don't, doesn't

Dani 29:21

fall in my lap.

Stephanie 29:22

Yeah. If I can't, you know, get something that. Like the easiest case. They're like, well, what do I do? I

Dani 29:29

just think about the modern day cases that are tried right now. How much, time is spent on cell phone evidence, video evidence.

Stephanie 29:38

DNA experts.

Dani 29:40

Yeah,

Stephanie 29:40

the mi the minute they

Dani 29:41

had none of this shit.

Stephanie 29:42

None of it. No fucking way. Yeah. So

Dani 29:44

13 weeks.

Stephanie 29:46

So I'm like,

Dani 29:47

well, this is part they called 147 witnesses.

Stephanie 29:51

Oh shit.

Dani 29:52

Because that's all you had back in the day.

Stephanie 29:54

Well, and I'm sorry, that's tough on a jury. Mm-hmm. Like that's a lot of in if I'm, I'm thinking if I'm on the jury, that's a lot. They better all be relevant and serve some purpose. That's a lot of fucking witnesses.

Dani 30:08

It's Baki said the possibility. Of the death penalty had a chilling effect on witnesses. Every witness was that much more circumspect in terms of what they would say on the stand. He said, Hmm,

Stephanie 30:26

that was a big word for me. Thank you. Love it. Okay.

Dani 30:29

Critical portions of Thomas's statements to investigators were ruled inadmissible by the trial judge and other pieces of the prosecution's case weakened under a cross-examination. A friend who had previously told police Thomas admitted killing George, changed his testimony on the stand saying investigators misunderstood him. Oh

Stephanie 30:52

my God, that's so

Dani 30:53

frustrating. Even Thomas's son altered his testimony.

Stephanie 30:59

Don't love that.

Dani 31:01

And Thomas did not testify, which you shouldn't shut the fuck up.

Stephanie 31:07

It is like, it's just never a good idea. Mm-hmm.

Dani 31:13

Mm-hmm. After nearly two days of deliberation, the jury reported it was hopelessly deadlocked. The split was seven to five for acquittal.

Stephanie 31:23

Wow.

Dani 31:25

On a, Two days,

Stephanie 31:28

they should have 13

Dani 31:29

go back

Stephanie 31:30

13 weeks of No, there's no what? How did you guys go over all these?

Dani 31:35

Maybe they should make a rule, like for every week of testimony you have to deliberate

Stephanie 31:38

at least deliberate, deliberate, deliberate day, deliberate this much time, which is, which is what makes me wonder were they just putting in a bunch of stuff that wasn't relevant that they I I,

Dani 31:49

yeah. The thing is, is that what I think the difficult thing is, is it was very circumstantial. And

Stephanie 31:56

so they were trying to,

Dani 31:57

there was no, like

Stephanie 31:58

the witnesses,

Dani 31:59

there was literally no smoking gun. Mm-hmm. Because that, and even if that gun had matched the serial number, what does that mean? Mm-hmm. He could have said he lost it. I, you know what I'm saying?

Stephanie 32:11

Well, and they probably didn't do the gunshot like comparisons back then, did they?

Dani 32:17

I don't think so. I

Stephanie 32:18

don't think they did.

Dani 32:19

It might've. I didn't, I didn't see that any of my reporting. On April 15th, 1978, the judge declared a mistrial. The district attorney announced the charge would be dismissed without prejudice, allowing the case to be refiled if new evidence was found. The cost of the trial had drained the office's budget for the year.

Stephanie 32:40

Oh, shit.

Dani 32:41

Yeah, because listen, I'm gonna tell you, because witnesses were scattered all across the western.

Stephanie 32:49

And

Dani 32:49

they, the United States?

Stephanie 32:50

Yeah.

Dani 32:50

They had to bring them in because this horse industry, they were bringing in people mm-hmm. To testify. So people all over the western United States and,

Stephanie 32:59

and how long does it take for the prosecutors if they're 13 weeks and there's so many other crimes and everything, and they've basically blown their budget on this. That's crazy.

Dani 33:10

The judge did not wanna retrial and the district attorney declined to refile, but the case was never closed. Decades later, Baki would call it the only felony case he ever lost. It's always kind of been the one that got away. He said, Bren Meyer said Thomas's name resurfaced repeatedly over the years when other agencies called asking about him.

Stephanie 33:35

Mm.

Dani 33:36

Thomas, continued life, doing life. Late on the night of October 13th, 1996, Michael Phillips was at home in Kimberly, Idaho when his doorbell rang. Just after a quarter, after 11:00 PM Nighttime,

Stephanie 33:56

who is absolutely not,

Dani 34:00

when Michael opened the door, he found Jimmy Thomas standing outside,

Stephanie 34:05

fucking Jimmy,

Dani 34:06

pointing a nine millimeter semi-automatic handgun directly at Thomas. Told him he wanted to come inside to talk and Michael complied. Yeah, he had a gun. Yeah, come on in.

Stephanie 34:20

What do you

Dani 34:21

do?

Stephanie 34:21

I guess, yeah.

Dani 34:23

Do I have a, is this a choice?

Stephanie 34:26

This is where someone comes knocking at my door, 11:00 PM not, I'm not trying to victim blame here. And it was more, it was more normal for people to stop by unannounced. Back in the day, people were always doing that. Like there's

Dani 34:40

no texting.

Stephanie 34:41

Yeah. You're just, I was in the neighborhood,

Dani 34:43

but 11 a quarter after 11.

Stephanie 34:44

Yeah. Like thinking if it's an emergency, but listen up. I am, I'm peeking. Who is it? I'm getting prepared. I'm looking at what the nearest weapon is to me.

Dani 34:57

I'm dead asleep. Nothing's waking me up.

Stephanie 35:01

One time Zach came in late. I was like in the kitchen. It was dark. I had all the lights off. I was just like filling up my water bottle or something. Getting ready to go back into the into go back to bed, and we weren't expecting Zach to be back. That night and the door opens and I didn't have my glasses on and I'm blind without my glasses. Mm-hmm. I hit the fucking floor. Oh, I crouched. And I'm like, I gotta get to the knife drawer, because I thought someone was coming into our house. Like I could not see, no, it was Zach. Um, and he started talking. He was like, oh, Nike. And I was like, well, thank God. But no, it just. When you go into that fight or flight and you're like, you think it can't happen to you? And then when it does you're like, oh shit, I'm gonna have to cut someone. Good thing he started talking

Dani 35:58

crisis.

Stephanie 35:58

I was, then I was like, Zach, oh, you're your heart is being the adrenalines. I'm like, I'm not gonna get to sleep now. I'm gonna be up for two hours because I thought that I was just gonna have to stab someone

Dani 36:12

my

Stephanie 36:12

own

Dani 36:12

kitchen. God damn. Once inside the house, Thomas kept the gun visible. The conversation centered immediately on Annamarie Thomas,

Stephanie 36:23

who's that?

Dani 36:24

Thomas's ex-wife and Michael's current girlfriend.

Stephanie 36:28

Oh gosh. The drama.

Dani 36:31

Thomas told Michael that his relationship with her had ruined Thomas's life. Wow, okay. And he wanted Phillips to stay away from Annamarie. Thomas then told Michael, mind you gun out to write a letter to Annamarie that said Michael would never see her again.

Stephanie 36:54

This is weird behavior. I mean, I'm sure we've all heard shit like this before, but this is just like, this is straight out of the soap opera. Wow.

Dani 37:02

You will write this letter and you will not see my ex-wife ever again.

Stephanie 37:07

Obsessed much.

Dani 37:10

While Michael was writing the letter, Thomas Paste argued with him and repeatedly returned to the subject of Annamarie obsessed.

Stephanie 37:19

And this is, I cannot imagine being in his shoes of like, yes, I'm writing it. Cool, dude, I know you're mad.

Dani 37:25

I hate your fucking guts. Like, what is he supposed to say? Like,

Stephanie 37:29

and you're gonna do it. I mean, oh

Dani 37:31

yeah.

Stephanie 37:31

What are you gonna say? No, I'm writing her a letter telling her how much I love her. Like, no. You're like, absolutely, dude. Okay. You

Dani 37:38

bet. I fucking hate you. Never wanna see you again. You're a horrible person.

Stephanie 37:41

And that someone is pacing around and still agitated like that. Mm-hmm. That's terrifying.

Dani 37:47

At one point, Thomas placed the gun in his back pocket. Michael believed the situation, might deescalate,

Stephanie 37:54

hoping, hoping, hoping, but

Dani 37:55

it

Stephanie 37:55

didn't. Well, of course it didn't because he is out of his mind.

Dani 38:01

After about 30 to 45 minutes, Thomas told Michael to get into his vehicle and drive him to the Traveler's oasis near the interstate. 84.

Stephanie 38:11

Good. I 84.

Dani 38:12

the Oasis. You've been there? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's pretty, oh, look, was pretty unique. Back when they actually had, before they rebuilt it and they had the actual like little tree and the waterfall.

Stephanie 38:28

I don't remember that.

Dani 38:30

You don't, I dunno if I do not sure. Now it's all, now it's all fancy and you can go in and order like five fast food restaurants and it's all like touch and, no, this was like, it was like an Amazon forest, like a oasis and you went in there and sat and it was grungy but fun and they had all kinds of knick-knacks. I'm gonna have to find you pictures. I'm pretty sure that now you have me thinking that I don't know the right place.

Stephanie 38:55

No, I think that you're right.

Dani 38:56

Okay. When they arrived at the truck stop, Thomas pulled the gun again. Michael thought Thomas was gonna kill him, so he tried to get the gun. I was like, all right, well I've played your game

Stephanie 39:10

now

Dani 39:10

I'm getting, well, what

Stephanie 39:10

did he say? Don't ever go to a second location,

Dani 39:14

the second location.

Stephanie 39:15

So you're like, things are getting dire here. And you've probably been trying to think of trying to find opportunities the whole time. Like I can picture myself in a situation like this of If you see that they're not looking at the gun and they've set it down of like, do I go for like, so you're trying to find a thing that's I'm in a very bad situation and if I can get a chance, I have to take that chance. So he must have saw a chance and said, absolutely not. Mm. Gotta

Dani 39:44

go. as a two struggled inside the vehicle, Michael managed to wrestle the handgun away and escape. Oh my gosh. How stressful is that? But after all that,'cause you know, he never, is it loaded? Is it not loaded?

Stephanie 40:02

Mm-hmm.

Dani 40:04

The weapon contained a chambered round and eight additional bullets in the magazine.

Stephanie 40:09

It was ready to go.

Dani 40:10

He wasn't fucking around. Mm-hmm. He was serious. Write the fucking letter. Take me to the oasis. Yeah.

Stephanie 40:15

Safety probably wasn't on

Dani 40:18

Michael. Ran for help and then contacted the police. Kimberly officers obtained a warrant for Thomas with a$20,000 bond. Damn, and Thomas was not immediately located. He remained at large for more than a week before he was arrested.

Stephanie 40:34

Shit.

Dani 40:35

Prosecutors initially charged him with aggravated assault with a firearm enhancement and second degree kidnapping. In April, 1997, prosecutors dropped the assault charge and added the firearm enhancement to the kidnapping charge. Increasing the potential sentence to 25 years plus 15 more years for the use of a gun.

Stephanie 40:57

Mm-hmm.

Dani 40:57

So we're looking at 40 years now. They're, oh, wait, let's, let's take a look at these charges. Let's just minus this, add this.

Stephanie 41:06

Yeah.

Dani 41:06

Perfection. Yeah. That's exactly what happened. Yikes. The case went to trial in May, 1997 in Twin Falls County District. Judge Roger Burdick presided over the two day trial. A jury found Thomas guilty of second degree kidnapping at gunpoint. Immediately after the verdict, twin Falls County prosecutor, grant Loeb argued that Thomas should be remanded into custody.

Stephanie 41:33

Pretty

Dani 41:34

standard,

Stephanie 41:34

yeah. Yeah.

Dani 41:35

Loeb told the court Thomas had no stable assets in the United States, had extensive international travel and pose a flight risk. Thomas was briefly jailed following the conviction. Briefly, two days later during a post-conviction bond hearing, Thomas and his defense attorney claimed Thomas was suffering from serious medical conditions, including a hernia and gout, and that jail officials were not providing proper treatment.

Stephanie 42:07

This reminds me of the proper medication for the persistent constipation.

Dani 42:12

Mm-hmm. This was a hernia and gout. I thought gout was from drinking. How was he drinking in prison? Am I wrong?

Stephanie 42:22

Or maybe diabetes? I don't know.

Dani 42:24

Mm.

Stephanie 42:25

It's na, it's a nasty business.

Dani 42:28

Thomas was brought into the courtroom in a wheelchair claiming he couldn't walk.

Stephanie 42:33

Oh,

Dani 42:34

the court allowed him to be released while the matter was considered further.

Stephanie 42:40

Don't they like chain you to the bed and have an officer there and

Dani 42:46

do you remember we've done some cases where they release him mm-hmm. Until their sentencing

Stephanie 42:52

Oh. And it's just

Dani 42:54

doesn't make sense.

Stephanie 42:55

They, and listen, you'd be stupid not to try to do something. This is your one chance. What's easier, A jail escape or you've escaped jail legally and

Dani 43:07

you're just out.

Stephanie 43:08

Especially how easy it was to become hidden in before like Yeah. Big internet. Yeah. And cameras everywhere.

Dani 43:15

Cell

Stephanie 43:16

phone disappear into another country, another state even.

Dani 43:20

And he had international ties.

Stephanie 43:22

Yeah. He's a traveling guy. Mm-hmm.

Dani 43:27

over the objection of Twin Falls County Sheriff's Office. Judge Burdick ultimately reduced Thomas's bond'cause he was on a$20,000 bond in December. The bond was lower to$7,500 cash. Annamarie posted the bond. Of course she did. Thomas was released from custody while awaiting sentencing. If you're already guilty, why would you ever be let out? Like, but he kidnapped her. Mm-hmm. Boyfriend. But I will say that there is some, some I read a little bit about the reason that they divorced was for financial reasons, which knowing Thomas' background with the debt and all that stuff. He probably divorced her so she could keep the house or whatever. Mm-hmm. And then she's probably like, shush, shush, shush, shush. And that's maybe why he was pissed. I mean, this was never, I'm just, no. But this is a lot of assuming. Um, and so the

Stephanie 44:23

context is important.

Dani 44:24

Um, so I kind of feel like Thomas was like, that's my money that you have. You should and mm-hmm. I don't know much about Annamarie other than her boyfriends. Maybe that's what happened. I'm just saying for me currently, would not be posting bond for an ex that held my

Stephanie 44:48

Absolutely not.

Dani 44:50

That was a bad, that was not a good decision.

Stephanie 44:53

No, I,

Dani 44:57

Thomas never returned for sentencing.

Stephanie 44:59

Shocker. What a shocker. You'd honestly be stupid to not try to escape. This is your one chance.

Dani 45:07

Especially with international ties.

Stephanie 45:09

Yeah.

Dani 45:10

When Thomas failed to appear for his sentencing hearing, a warrant was issued, investigators quickly determined Thomas had left the country.

Stephanie 45:20

Why weren't they watching this before? Like, I know it's,

Dani 45:24

I know I'm gonna say this later, so let me just say that I'm just gonna repeat itself. So what happened is they did do their due diligence and made him turn in his passport.

Stephanie 45:35

Mm-hmm.

Dani 45:37

But what they didn't know is that Thomas had reported his passport stolen and got another one.

Stephanie 45:44

Oh. So he is like, sure. Have this one. Yeah, absolutely, guys.

Dani 45:47

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 45:48

You know, I'm good for it. Yeah. Hold on to my passport. He's like, can't wait for my duplicate to come in.

Dani 45:55

Exactly. Wow. Within weeks of his release, Thomas had purchased multiple firearms, despite being legally prohibited from Pro, pro, pro possessing them.

Stephanie 46:11

Remix,

Dani 46:14

don't take that out. Um, so he went and I don't know if I wrote this down, I just know the story, so I'm gonna tell you.

Stephanie 46:21

Mm-hmm.

Dani 46:21

So he went into the hunt. Hunter's store or something. It was some ridiculous, like, name. Okay. And he bought six guns with a bad check. I don't know, I might repeat myself. He's, he's got, he's

Stephanie 46:39

got a way,

Dani 46:40

he's, he's

Stephanie 46:41

got a

Dani 46:41

brace. He is got a way. Mm-hmm. Anyway, uh, yeah. So he's like, look, I'm gonna need a little money.

46:51

He's

Stephanie 46:51

doing it big.

Dani 46:52

He, he is like, I'm gonna go, go

Stephanie 46:54

big or go home. Wow.

Dani 46:55

There's, let me just, and

Stephanie 46:56

he's not going home to the jailhouse?

Dani 46:59

No, he's not law enforcement. And he lied. God, I can't remember if I write this down or not. He lied on the firearms from, he like gave different date of birth and,

Stephanie 47:12

and the checks and balances. I mean, we still don't have really great ones here. But they were not as good as they were there?

Dani 47:18

No. Uh, he used a different, I think social. There was several things he did to.

Stephanie 47:25

Uh, to get these fraudulently.

Dani 47:26

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for filling out the form wrong, right? Mm-hmm. Law enforcement began tracking his movements across state lines and national lines.

Stephanie 47:38

Oh,

Dani 47:39

by the time authorities confirmed his whereabouts Thomas was overseas, long gone by early June, law enforcement confirmed that Thomas entered South Africa on June 1st, 1997. At the time of his release, the court had been told Thomas's passport had been confiscated. Investigators later determined that Thomas possessed his second passport. He had obtained a replacement passport by claiming his original had been lost,

Stephanie 48:08

and there wasn't really ways to flag like there is now where it will like automatically set off alarm bells. No.

Dani 48:15

Twin Falls County Sheriff Wayne Ley and prosecutor Grant Loeb both said they had warned the court. Thomas was a flight risk, like told you

Stephanie 48:24

the big, told you so. Yeah.

Dani 48:26

did we not I we

Stephanie 48:27

fucking, he gave you all the reasons why this is, we told you a terrible idea.

Dani 48:31

Citing his frequent travel to South Africa, his experience with firearms and his access to international contacts.

Stephanie 48:38

He's got friends all over the world

Dani 48:41

in low places.

Stephanie 48:43

It certainly does. Yeah. You played yourselves.

Dani 48:46

Mm-hmm. And tells is like, hello, hello? I told you this was going to fucking hap. I'd be so pissed.

Stephanie 48:53

And this is pre nine 11 is why. Yeah. This is so like,

Dani 48:56

yeah, I would be, can you imagine that prosecutor going like, okay, now we got this guy.

Stephanie 49:03

Mm-hmm. He's gone.

Dani 49:05

We're never gonna get him back, but I fucking told you, this is what,

Stephanie 49:10

and to a judge too. Would you expect a judge to have some, what is it? Discernment.

Dani 49:15

A little bit.

Stephanie 49:16

Hello? Isn't that your whole job?

Dani 49:19

No. Oh, he has some gout. Go and get that hernia. Go get that taken care of. Fuck you let

Stephanie 49:25

them. I mean, they can still get healthcare.

Dani 49:28

Yeah, but I'm telling you that defense attorney was defensive because mm-hmm. He was like, they're not taking care of him. And he went in there like he was fucking such an actor. He rolled into there with a fucking wheelchair pretending like he couldn't even walk. Was he? Yeah. Because of his fucking gout.

Stephanie 49:46

It looks like he walked and ran just fine.

Dani 49:49

Yeah. Thomas told court officials during bond proceedings that he was involved in hunting safaris. And business ventures in South Africa. Like Thomas said this.

Stephanie 50:01

Yeah. He's

Dani 50:02

like, oh yeah, that's me. We're not

Stephanie 50:03

making this up.

Dani 50:03

That's me. He testified that he had contacts through game hunting operations and claimed partial ownership in a game farm and a tire business in South Africa.

Stephanie 50:14

Yeah. He's Mr. Worldwide.

Dani 50:18

Investigators had raised concerns that Thomas could finance, travel, and evade authorities through firearm sales overseas, where weapons were significantly higher prices due to embargoes.

Stephanie 50:30

So he's basically like, I'm getting my fucking guns

Dani 50:32

got my 6

Stephanie 50:33

cents. This is, this is gonna be my money. Mm-hmm. When I get there.

Dani 50:36

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 50:38

Because pre nine 11 could, you could probably have it in your carry on. They're like, don't take it out in the plane. I don't remember. I didn't, I, I was younger. I didn't travel a whole lot pre nine 11. But

Dani 50:52

yeah,

Stephanie 50:52

the security was not Security Yang.

Dani 50:55

Not like now.

Stephanie 50:56

No. You could just walk up with your family member that's leaving and sit at the gate with them. Cannot do that now.

Dani 51:05

No.

Stephanie 51:05

If you don't, if you don't have a flight, you're not in here.

Dani 51:07

Yeah.

Stephanie 51:08

And was there even like. How much were they even, were they checking people at all? I don't remember there being a TSA.

Dani 51:14

It wasn't TSA. You had to go through

Stephanie 51:16

like a metal detector maybe.

Dani 51:18

Yeah. Yeah. You still had to do some stuff, but not like now.

Stephanie 51:22

No

Dani 51:23

shoes off. Jack it off. Computer's

Stephanie 51:25

open. Can I just, can I just say, can they, can they please get on the same page? All the TSAs? Some places it's like if you don't take out your fucking laptop. You may as well be Al-Qaeda.

Dani 51:36

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 51:37

And some other places you go to start taking out your laptop and they're like, we didn't say to do that. What? Why would you do? And it's like, I was trying to just be a good girl. I was trying to make sure I was, I concur prepared.

Dani 51:48

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 51:48

And you didn't have to yell at me. And I be the one that's holding up. I don't wanna be the one holding up the line. I'm trying to get an A plus at getting through TSA is my goal.

Dani 51:57

I'm being proactive.

Stephanie 51:58

I want to be your best student today.

Dani 52:00

Yeah.

Stephanie 52:00

Why are you yelling at me? And, and if it's not a big deal, then why do they act? My act like my laptop's a bomb in every other airport.

Dani 52:09

Yeah.

Stephanie 52:09

Why is it's not a, it's not a big deal here. Sometimes they're like, don't take off your shoes and belt. Why the fuck would you do that?

Dani 52:15

Exactly.

Stephanie 52:16

Because I, I feel like I'm gonna have an AK 47 at my head and other airports if I don't.

Dani 52:21

Right.

Stephanie 52:21

Like, why are you acting like I'm the weird one? You're being weird. You're being weird.

Dani 52:27

Can I just say something? Oh my God. I'm gonna be judgey mc judger.

Stephanie 52:30

Oh, what I do.

Dani 52:31

No, not for you. Oh, just in general. I don't know if you do this, I'm gonna judge you. Hmm. People who do not wear shoes with socks at the airport when they know that they have to take off their shoes going

Stephanie 52:43

through it is weird.

Dani 52:45

Grosses me the fuck out. You're going through the scanner. You know how many other gross feeds have been on that scanner

Stephanie 52:51

and foot fungis?

Dani 52:53

It's a thing. You don't

Stephanie 52:54

want that?

Dani 52:54

No. You don't

Stephanie 52:55

want that.

Dani 52:55

There's a reason they have shower shoes in prison.

Stephanie 52:57

Mm-hmm. It's very important.

Dani 52:59

Do you see how I brought that back?

Stephanie 53:00

Mm-hmm.

Dani 53:01

Okay. Thank

Stephanie 53:01

you. Full circle.

Dani 53:02

Thank you. Cheers.

Stephanie 53:03

Watch your feeds.

Dani 53:05

That's disgusting.

Stephanie 53:06

Oh, it's weird.

53:29

Hey friends, we wanna talk about some of the subjects that are a little bit heavier on our podcast. abuse isn't your fault and there are safe, confidential ways to get help. Domestic violence doesn't always look the same. It isn't just bruises or broken bones. It can be about controlling money, isolating you from your friends, constant surveillance or threats against your kids and pets. Abuse thrives in silence and breaking that silence is the first step to safety. the National Domestic Violence Hotline is available twenty four seven. Call 1 807 9 9 SAFE or 7 2 3 3 or text start to 8 8 7 8 8. You can also chat@thehotline.org. Advocates can help safety plan with you even if you're not ready to leave. If you're worried that your device is being monitored, it may be safest to call. Teens and young adults can also contact. Love is Respect at 8 6 6 3 3 1 9 4 7 4 or text. Love is 2 2 2 5, 2 2. For Native American and Alaska native survivors strong heart's, native helpline offers culturally specific 24 7 support at 8 4 4 7 native. If you are someone near you is in immediate danger, please call 9 1 1. You deserve safety.

Dani 55:08

In the fall of 1997, Thomas returned to the United States.

Stephanie 55:12

Oh,

Dani 55:13

guess who's back?

Stephanie 55:14

Why would you though? That's, I would never,

Dani 55:17

there's a reason,

Stephanie 55:18

again, we talked about this off camera.

Dani 55:20

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 55:21

But if you got away with it, you better just. That's your one chance.

Dani 55:27

Yeah.

Stephanie 55:28

You escaped the country. Stay out.

Dani 55:32

He was acquitted with the fucking hung jury on murder charges. Yeah. And then he's going and fucking kidnapping people at gunpoint. And he got free after that.

Stephanie 55:45

Luckily enough

Dani 55:46

had 40 years hanging over his head. You don't come back. Unless you're absolutely batshit,

Stephanie 55:53

my toes would never touch United States soil ever again.

Dani 55:57

He has, he has businesses in South Africa. Why does he need to come back?

Stephanie 56:01

Make a new one? Make a new one? My toes are never touching in the United States. Again, if that was new,

Dani 56:08

but he has some, he had, he had something he needed to

Stephanie 56:10

do. Desperate. Was he desperate? Sounds like he was. He was desperate.

Dani 56:14

He had something he needed to take care of.

Stephanie 56:15

Was it Annmarie or whatever her name was? Is that her name?

Dani 56:18

Annamarie. Listen to my story. I'm gonna tell you,

Stephanie 56:23

oh my God.

Dani 56:25

Authorities determined that he entered using false identification and his return initially went undetected. Shocker. By early November, Thomas was back in southern Idaho.

Stephanie 56:39

Well, and this is in the fall of 97 too. I thought maybe it'd be a decade later.

Dani 56:45

No, it was like six months. Like.

Stephanie 56:48

You haven't even tried to establish.

Dani 56:50

He's like, I got to, I gotta go back. It's call Idaho's calling him. No, he's a fucking dick.

Stephanie 56:59

He's a dipshit.

Dani 57:00

38-year-old. Steven Lauder was living in Jerome County, Idaho. He had grown up in the area, graduated from Valley High School and worked as a farmer and a truck driver, which is that area. Mm-hmm. That's what you do? Mm-hmm. Friends and family described him as easygoing, social, and devoted to his children. Enjoyed hunting, fishing, trap, shooting, playing in a pool league, and buying those lottery tickets.

Stephanie 57:25

Sounds like a cool guy.

Dani 57:27

In the fall of 1997, Steven began living with Annamarie Thomas in her home.

Stephanie 57:32

Oh shit. And Eden. This guy's fucking obsessed with her. Ridic to the point, oh my gosh, you already got a kidnapping and firearm charge because of this woman. You're coming back to Idaho from South, you were able to escape and you cannot stay away, bro. Pathetic

Dani 58:03

on the morning of Friday, November 14th, 1997. Thomas entered Annamarie Thomas's home near Eden. Without speaking, he shot Steven multiple times inside the house. Oh my God. Annamarie fled the residence and ran down Hunt Road to the nearby home of Thomas's parents to call for help.

Stephanie 58:27

Oh my God.

Dani 58:28

The shooting was reported shortly after 8:00 AM Steven died at the scene,

Stephanie 58:34

just walked in and shot him up. And I'd be scared to go to the dude's parents' house too. Like,

Dani 58:41

I think that that was their, family, like, I think that it was on purpose that they had the family home and then they had a divorce. I think that Anna-Marie was still close with her in-laws. Right. Probably the children. Yeah. All of that stuff. And it's rural.

Stephanie 59:01

Mm-hmm.

Dani 59:02

And if they were neighbor, you're just gonna run to your neighbor's house regardless. The

Stephanie 59:05

closest one. Yeah.

Dani 59:05

Regardless.

Stephanie 59:06

Or else you're gonna be running another fucking what? Mile. No, you gotta go. No Scary though. Anna Annmarie like already kidnapped and was probably gonna shoot your last boyfriend. This dude's crazy.

Dani 59:27

And I just feel like it hadn't been that. I mean, it'd been a like, girl, go get your man. Like, do your thing. But I would be overly cautious.

Stephanie 59:37

Well, I would think, why in the fuck would he come back to America? He's hit the lottery. Okay, enjoy your life in South Africa.

Dani 59:45

But if you've been married to him and you know how psycho he is, you know, if

Stephanie 59:48

you know, you know, and there probably had to be some signs, like, you can't tell me he didn't try to call or something. Like,

Dani 59:55

I don't. I think he was a little patient, but not much. I don't know. She, I'd be like, I got you outta jail and you skipped.'cause you know they get to keep that money. Right? You skip. That was Sean. It was her money. I'd be like, anyway,

Stephanie 1:00:12

this is Wild

Dani 1:00:13

Drum County Sheriff Jim Weaver announced Jimmy Verell Thomas was the prime suspect. Again, Weaver said Thomas was considered armed and dangerous due to his known proficiency with firearms and experience as a big game hunter. This guy in South Africa was legit, like he did the big game hunting. So a warrant was issued charging Thomas with first degree murder and burglary according to family members and law enforcement. Steven had never met Jimmy Thomas and was not familiar with him in the week before Steven was killed, friends told investigators that Steven believed someone had followed him to one of his regular goose hunting spots. The vehicle reportedly left before Steven could identify it. No police reports were filed at the time.

Stephanie 1:01:06

Just something suspicious. We did.

Dani 1:01:07

Really? Oh. You know, it's out of this, it's just weird. Like, you know, you

Stephanie 1:01:12

and you probably try to talk yourself out of it. Like, yeah, like I'm, I'm, oh gosh, just someone driving on the same road as me. Like gotta let it

Dani 1:01:19

annamarie. Did you tell him about your ex-husband? Was this well known? Like, did everybody know that your ex-husband kidnapped your other boyfriend? I kind of feel like. That Steven didn't know that because I think he would've been,

Stephanie 1:01:35

even if he did, I wouldn't think that someone's gonna come from South Africa.'cause again, why would you ever come back here? You dipshit.

Dani 1:01:42

Well, they didn't know he was in South Africa, but he clearly had to go somewhere. Mm-hmm. And they knew he had ties. I mean,

Stephanie 1:01:48

you think he's hiding out. Why would he come expose himself themself?

Dani 1:01:52

Law enforcement agencies launched an extensive search across Jerome County and surrounding rural areas. Deputies followed tips from residents who reported possible sightings of Thomas or vehicles resembling those. he was believed to be using Idaho State Police assisted with patrols and an aerial search was conducted over Bureau of Land Management, just north of Hunt. Authorities alerted Magic Valley Regional Airport and distributed photographs of Thomas to airline person. He's not flying out of magic. He's not flying out of Twin Falls.

Stephanie 1:02:27

Too small.

Dani 1:02:28

No,

Stephanie 1:02:28

you gotta be able to disappear and plugged in. Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:02:31

Workers were instructed to notify law enforcement if Thomas attempted to board a flight. You're, and you're not going far, you're going to Boise. Yeah. Maybe Salt Lake out of Twin Falls. Like

Stephanie 1:02:42

you're not,

Dani 1:02:43

you're not getting a direct flight to South Africa.

Stephanie 1:02:45

No. You can't get a direct flight to any, just about any, unless it's Seattle, Phoenix Salt Lake.

Dani 1:02:52

Yeah. but that was cute. Weaver said investigators did not know how Thomas was traveling or whether he remained in the area. That would be kind of, that would be scary. I'd be fucking so scared, like, okay, well I thought he went to South Africa, but then he came back and shot my boyfriend and, and now what? He's willing to risk it all as the search continued residence in Eden reported height and fear. Neighbors locked doors during the day. Farmers carried firearms while working in the fields. Neighborhood watch members said routines changed as reports of sidings circulated without confirmation. So it was no confirmed sidings, but people thought maybe they saw him. Mm-hmm. Or maybe they saw the matching rent. Everyone's

Stephanie 1:03:42

on High alert.

Dani 1:03:44

High alert, and kudos to them for reporting it because the people who don't report, even though they, it might be just a hunch.

Stephanie 1:03:51

You gotta give people the information.

Dani 1:03:53

Yep. Let them deal. After the November 14th killing of Steven Lauder, Jerome County investigators believe Thomas fled Idaho. Almost immediately. Law enforcement agencies in Idaho, Nevada, California and South Africa we're alerted Twin Falls. I know it's just so weird to say all Africa,

Stephanie 1:04:14

like all those things, if you see your boy, could you let us know?'cause he's been causing havoc.

Dani 1:04:20

Twin Falls County authorities were already seeking Thomas for sentencing on his 1996 kidnapping conviction. Yeah. And federal authorities were now involved because Thomas had crossed international borders while a fucking fugitive.

Stephanie 1:04:33

Yeah. Now you got the big dogs involved bro.

Dani 1:04:37

And April, 1998, federal authorities confirmed Thomas had reentered the United States under a false name using South African identification. He's back. Look at that. According to the FBI, Thomas used at least two aliases while traveling, including Patrick Davids and Vincent McDonough. Investigators determined Thomas had also used the identification and credit cards of Willem Widowmakers as South African big game Hunter Willem's body had been found, shot and stepped inside a freezer on his property near Pretoria, South Africa.

Stephanie 1:05:19

And then he is like, nice identification. I'll take that.

Dani 1:05:24

South African authorities issued a murder warrant for Thomas in connection with Willem's death.

Stephanie 1:05:28

So now, now everyone has little skin in the game.

Dani 1:05:30

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 1:05:35

Stop. Have you gone away with murder once? Don't be kidnapping and murdering him. He's

Dani 1:05:39

just murdering him.

Stephanie 1:05:41

Everywhere he goes. False sense of confidence. You could have had it made buddy. You could have had a new life and they never would've got you.

Dani 1:05:50

So lemme tell you, Willam befriended Thomas.

Stephanie 1:05:54

Oh.

Dani 1:05:55

Over big game hunting. They were like doing it together. Willam lived on a property that he had inherited from his dad. Like, he's out, he's probably just a super nice guy. Yeah. Like, and, and some, reading. They said that Willam knew that he was a fugitive from the United States possibly, and was letting him stay there kind of hiding out.

Stephanie 1:06:18

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:06:19

Um,

Stephanie 1:06:20

there wasn't an easy way to find out though, of like, it's not like he could've looked it up.

Dani 1:06:25

No.

Stephanie 1:06:25

He could've had a feeling, but,

Dani 1:06:27

or he just told him.

Stephanie 1:06:28

Right.

Dani 1:06:29

Or maybe he just told him about the kidnapping charge and not

Stephanie 1:06:31

about the murder charge. Or maybe he said it was for something even less. Yeah. You know, like. Got myself in a little drug business.

Dani 1:06:38

Mm. Uh, but Willam was found in that freezer. He was shot, found in your own fucking freezer. And he was so

Stephanie 1:06:46

disrespectful

Dani 1:06:47

under a bunch of meat. And this was not like they didn't find him right away. No. He hit him, uh, allegedly, uh, hit him. He was under a bunch of meat in a freezer.

Stephanie 1:06:58

So awful.

Dani 1:06:59

And he was already split by the time.

Stephanie 1:07:02

Yeah,

Dani 1:07:02

I just, and I can't confirm this, I really did try to find articles in South, like there was nothing South African for me on this. Mm-hmm. Like I couldn't find any local stories. but I imagine some or ears kind of perked up when he hadn't been seen for a hot minute going to town. I kind of feel like this was like on the outskirts just for my reading.

Stephanie 1:07:22

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:07:23

and it was kind of a little bit where people were like, Hmm. Or possibly. The police went over there and dibbled dabbled and perked ears. Yeah. and they're like, well, we haven't seen Willem in a hot while. And we know he hung out with Willem. I, I don't, I don't know what happened. For sure. I

Stephanie 1:07:39

wanted to know. Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:07:40

And let me just tell you, this motherfucker ain't real. No. His name is so hard because, so, I mean, even in early reports, his name was spelt wrong. Jimmy. It's not J-I-M-M-Y. It's J-I-M-M-I-E, so there was a lot of misspellings and articles. also he was referred to as James. His name is not James and that's not his given

Stephanie 1:08:05

name. Yeah.

Dani 1:08:05

I mean, I really went for it. Just so you guys know, there was nothing in South Africa. She had to be creative. I literally searched all of those names and look what you found. Look what I got. On April 21st, 1998, after receiving a tip that Thomas was in Northern Nevada, FBI agents and members of the Northern Nevada violent task crime force located him at a RV park in Reno.

Stephanie 1:08:38

I was thi I was like, it's gonna be Reno or get hot. Like, and I can totally, that's a good place to disappear and especially if you, we know that he likes to be flashy. You know, love's a quick come up. Maybe he's a gambling person and getting some quick money.

Dani 1:08:56

And, Northern Nevada is even still to this day, very country-ish. Yes. So there's still, there's, yeah, there's lots of farms and stuff out there, so it's like, yeah.

Stephanie 1:09:08

Easy to

Dani 1:09:09

disappear. I'm just gonna reestablish, I don't know why you came back to the America, sir. Oh wait.'cause you are gonna get, you knew that murder warrant was coming in South Africa.

Stephanie 1:09:18

Find another country. Go somewhere else, bro. Why are you back here?

Dani 1:09:23

Thomas had rented a space the night before and was staying in a 27 foot motor home. He also had a rental car and a dolly attached to the vehicle.

Stephanie 1:09:34

What's the dolly for?

Dani 1:09:36

It's a car.

Stephanie 1:09:37

Oh, okay. I was thinking like a hand dolly.

Dani 1:09:42

Yeah. No fair.

Stephanie 1:09:43

For the car. They call'em car dollies, but it's the one that puts the tires on so you can haul it.

Dani 1:09:48

Right. Okay.

Stephanie 1:09:49

And then

Dani 1:09:49

the back tires are on the ground. Oh, I know. So it's not a trailer, it's a dolly. Mm-hmm. I could be wrong.

Stephanie 1:09:55

The more you know.

Dani 1:09:56

Ding. At approximately 8:15 AM officers observe Thomas, leave the motor home and walk into the RV park office. These guys were on'em. I don't know what tip you were watching because he, it was just the day before. That they found him. So somebody, he's either Thomas was talking and I couldn't find this. Somebody was telling something or something or something because they were on him like, get up motherfucker. Good morning.

Stephanie 1:10:29

How I'd love if I was able to be like an informant on a murderer or something, and they were across the street from me, how I would be Mrs. Olson from Little House. I'm watching him.

Dani 1:10:43

He just got

Stephanie 1:10:43

groceries. It's, it's, it's now my job. I'm taking the whole week off work.

Dani 1:10:47

He just got groceries delivered.

Stephanie 1:10:48

Yeah,

Dani 1:10:50

it appears

Stephanie 1:10:50

he a DoorDash of McDonald's.

Dani 1:10:53

It appears that he got some Gatorade and a case of beer and eggs and bread, with some other miscellaneous. Can't tell that other stuff, but I can definitely see the beer and Gatorade.

Stephanie 1:11:03

Yeah, I'm there. I'm there with binoculars or a scope. I'm, it's my job now.

Dani 1:11:08

It's full time. That's

Stephanie 1:11:09

my dream job. My dream date.

Dani 1:11:12

Cute. I love it. Agents moved in immediately. They're like, yeah, we got you. Thomas was taken to the ground during their arrest and one FBI agent suffered a minor injury from Broken Glass because they just fucking got

Stephanie 1:11:27

em good. Oh, they were like, listen up, we're fucking sick. Your ass.

Dani 1:11:30

Yeah. we're gonna rough you up

Stephanie 1:11:32

a bit.

Dani 1:11:33

The. A guy, that talked to the newspaper, it was his mom's RV park and he was help running it. And he just like, well,

Stephanie 1:11:41

shit, it

Dani 1:11:42

was,

Stephanie 1:11:43

it's like shit was breaking. People were rolling around. He is like, I didn't

Dani 1:11:46

know what the fuck was going on. The dog was barking. Can you imagine? I'd be like, excuse me

Stephanie 1:11:51

guys. What's happening?

Dani 1:11:53

yeah. Thomas was not armed at the moment of arrest, but officers later seizes multiple firearms from the motor home

Stephanie 1:12:00

and is knowing him. No wonder that they took him down like that because he loves his guns.

Dani 1:12:05

Yeah. They're probably like, he hasn't even had a cup of coffee yet. Let's go get em. Boys.

Stephanie 1:12:09

Yeah. B

Dani 1:12:12

Thomas was booked into the Washoe County Jail on a federal charge of unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.'cause uh, they had'em dead to rights on that one.

Stephanie 1:12:21

Oh yeah.

Dani 1:12:22

You've been convicted. Bitch. Your art.

Stephanie 1:12:24

We just needed to do your sentencing and cross that t and dot that I, and for some reason we're like, oh, you poor dear, which is, that's one thing that I wonder is does the attorney not know that he's faking or does he know that he's faking? And we're like, judge, please look at this poor wheelchaired man.

Dani 1:12:49

I think based on his behavior. I bet you he really milked it like it was convincing because if it wasn't convincing, listen, I think that that prosecutor would've brought in like jail staff or somebody else to say he doesn't have, he was just at, he was just in the exercise yard yesterday playing. Racquetball. Yeah, that's that. They played racquetball. He was doing

Stephanie 1:13:12

back flips outside.

Dani 1:13:13

Yeah. so I really think that he had built this up over the time he was in jail and he just milked it. Milked it, milked it. Mm-hmm. And he, he might've had gout and he might've had a hernia. Right. Still functional.

Stephanie 1:13:28

I mean, he was able to get around the airport in, into different countries.

Dani 1:13:31

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:13:32

Go buy six guns.

Dani 1:13:34

Yeah, he, he was okay. So, I don't, I don't think his defense attorney was on the sly with that. I really think that he had, he obviously, well, I shouldn't say obviously, he had some smarts in there somewhere. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'll be, it,

Stephanie 1:13:49

sounds like he was a manipulator

Dani 1:13:51

for Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. So I think he built this up. I mean, and you know, he was in his fifties at this point. Wow. And so

Stephanie 1:14:00

grow up who has time for this many murders at that age?

Dani 1:14:07

He does.

Stephanie 1:14:07

He did

Dani 1:14:10

the FBI stated Thomas had fled the United States after his 1996 kidnapping conviction and returned before the louder killing. So that's Steven. Mm-hmm. And then fled again after the homicide. Authorities also confirmed Thomas had attempted to bring multiple firearms back into the United States. Earlier in the year, which were seized by US Customs.

Stephanie 1:14:31

You are just playing with fire Buddy.

Dani 1:14:34

Doesn't give a fuck. That's what I see.

Stephanie 1:14:37

Oh my God.

Dani 1:14:38

He's gotten away with so much. He his give a fuck.

Stephanie 1:14:40

He thinks he thinks that he's that dude. Mm-hmm. And he was, he was able to,

Dani 1:14:44

he was that dude. He just should have not killed Willem and stayed in fucking South Africa.

Stephanie 1:14:49

You had a good thing going buddy, dummy.

Dani 1:14:54

Following his arrest, Thomas was held without bail. Finally. Thank you. In Nevada while I, no,

Stephanie 1:15:00

let's, let's guys, he's got gout. Give him a chance.

Dani 1:15:04

Collin's ex-wife, while prosecutors began extradition proceedings, twin Falls County moved first to secure Thomas for a sentencing on the kidnapping conviction, followed by Jerome County's first degree murder warrant on the louder case. So. Twin Falls was like the two different counties. Gimme

Stephanie 1:15:23

him.

Dani 1:15:24

Yeah. Twin Falls County was like mine first. Mm-hmm. He's already been convicted.

Stephanie 1:15:28

Yeah, we're done here. We just need that final thing.

Dani 1:15:31

Then you can have him for whatever. Okay. Let, let us get, and especially that prosecuting attorney was like, he is seriously a

Stephanie 1:15:39

fly risk. We're getting our pound of flesh.

Dani 1:15:42

Mm-hmm. And they will get it. Jerome County Sheriff's Detective Dan Chatterton traveled to Reno to interview Thomas shortly after his arrest. Hey, bud. He is like chatterton iss like, yeah, I think I'll take that seven, eight hour drive down to Reno. Him

Stephanie 1:16:01

dying to meet you, dude,

Dani 1:16:03

I've been dying to do a lot gambling. Yeah. Have a little steak buffet and then I'm gonna fucking nail you to the wall.

Stephanie 1:16:12

Get him, they've been itching and waiting

Dani 1:16:14

for I'm, then I'm gonna gamble a little bit more.

Stephanie 1:16:17

What?

Dani 1:16:18

Yeah, I'm better Probably bring my wife.

Stephanie 1:16:20

Yeah,

Dani 1:16:20

well go see a show.

Stephanie 1:16:21

Get some seafood. They've got some great little buffets

Dani 1:16:24

there. Yeah. Let's go get a seafood buffet

Stephanie 1:16:26

lobster.

Dani 1:16:27

Yeah. It's on the state's dime, by the way.

Stephanie 1:16:29

Yeah.

Dani 1:16:30

Uh, and then, uh,

Stephanie 1:16:31

and then we're gonna fucking get you.

Dani 1:16:34

Yeah. And then we're just gonna nail you to the wall. While jailed in Reno in April, 1998, Thomas was questioned by Chatterton and another officer. Okay. Maybe he didn't take his wife. They went to strip clubs for sure.

Stephanie 1:16:50

Oh yeah. Okay. They probably did. And you know what?

Dani 1:16:54

I don't think they're paying gas for

Stephanie 1:16:55

two. A Reno strip club. Ooh, what a time. You know what I'm, I'm sure it's I'm, it's no

Dani 1:17:07

Vegas.

Stephanie 1:17:08

It's no Vegas. But I'm sure there's still some very talented ladies out there and. on a guy's business trip. I'm sure it's exactly what they were hoping for.

Dani 1:17:19

Because I'm telling you, the state wasn't paying two gas bills to drive down there. No. They're like, no, you can go together.

Stephanie 1:17:25

Get her done. Yeah,

Dani 1:17:26

wife, stay home. Maybe wife's her best friend and they all went together. Nah, they're like, hunt. This is business.

Stephanie 1:17:32

We

Dani 1:17:32

gotta go.

Stephanie 1:17:33

Very important job, sweetie. I wish it wasn't in Reno. I hate that place, girl.

Dani 1:17:39

I'd rather go to Winnemucca.

Stephanie 1:17:41

No, I was just thinking like how. to rate like the Nevada gambling cities, like of course Vegas is gonna be the number one, but then like what? Like Reno? Is it Winnemucca jackpot, like Reno Winnemucca jackpot. Like in that order of like top five or whatever.

Dani 1:18:01

I don't know. Last time I was in Winnemucca, one of our friends won a lot of money and it was really fun and I'm sure that the. I enjoyed it. There was like four other people.'cause

Stephanie 1:18:13

I enjoyed when we will make it a good time.

Dani 1:18:15

Yeah. Well we are partying

Stephanie 1:18:16

and listen, sometimes I love, it's like a dive bar. It's like a dive city. Like

Dani 1:18:21

mm-hmm.

Stephanie 1:18:22

Listen, Nampa, iss nothing. It's not like we got real fancy here in Nampa, so we're not above it.

Dani 1:18:28

I love me a good dive bar

Stephanie 1:18:30

and now I kinda wanna go to, to a Winnemucca strip club for research sake.

Dani 1:18:35

I

Stephanie 1:18:35

think we need to know,

Dani 1:18:36

could that be a business write off?

Stephanie 1:18:39

Accountants,

Dani 1:18:41

let us know.

Stephanie 1:18:42

Answer. If we wanted to just go to a Reno or Winnemucca strip club for research. Is it a tax write off?

Dani 1:18:51

Thank you.

Stephanie 1:18:52

Lake Schutt Creek. It's a write off. You write it off. Who pays the government? The government pays for it.

Dani 1:18:58

The government pays for it. Uh, anyways. Accountants email us

Stephanie 1:19:02

the

Dani 1:19:02

The Lethal Library. library@gmail.com.

Stephanie 1:19:05

That was good. Fuck you up. Fuck yeah. Okay.

Dani 1:19:11

So Chattertons down there on his little business trip. It's

Stephanie 1:19:14

for business honey.

Dani 1:19:17

To interview Thomas. The interview recorded on videotape would later become a central piece of evidence in the murder trial for Steven from

Stephanie 1:19:26

Juicy

Dani 1:19:27

during the interrogation. Oh, that's a good word too, by the way. Interrogation. Interrogation. Thomas admitted he returned to Idaho from South Africa, watched Anna Marie's house near Eden and entered the house on the morning of November 14th, 1997. he described the shooting of Steven Lauder and acknowledged taking ammunition and the weapon back to South Africa afterward.

Stephanie 1:19:55

You know what? If you're gonna dispose of a murder weapon, another country is a great option actually. If you can get that thing on a plane, he actually

Dani 1:20:02

does say that later.

Stephanie 1:20:02

Like, sorry, I stole it from you, but go, stealing my thunder stuff. It's because we're right. We're on the same wavelength, but like, ah, you know, can't knock that. That was actually a very smart part of your murder.

Dani 1:20:16

Not coming back to the United States, but smart. Taking the guns out. Yeah, you're a fucking idiot. After Jimmy Thomas was returned to Idaho in the spring of 1998, prosecutors in two counties moved forward on those parallel tracks. They were

Stephanie 1:20:30

like, we're

Dani 1:20:31

ready to go. Let's go. Twin Falls County proceeded first securing Thomas for sentencing on his 1996 kidnapping conviction involving Michael Phillips and in May District, judge Roger bur imposed the maximum sentence allowed under the I

Stephanie 1:20:46

of the law. I bet he felt. It. I bet it was a personal thing'cause he's the one that said, yeah, sure go. You take care of your health. It like for making me look

Dani 1:20:54

stupid.

Stephanie 1:20:55

Yeah.

Dani 1:20:55

You get 40 fucking years

Stephanie 1:20:57

fucker.

Dani 1:20:57

Yeah,

Stephanie 1:20:57

40 years. I'm doing the most I can and I would too. Ooh. I hate when I go on the line for someone and then I know I shouldn't, but I'm like, give him the benefit of a doubt. Don't

Dani 1:21:10

trust

Stephanie 1:21:10

no one and trust your gut like.

Dani 1:21:13

NII do believe Well, look and look, I'm gonna disparage a little bit here. It's a small county. Yeah. This judge probably didn't deal with murder cases. Mm-hmm. Or kidnapping cases. Sure.

Stephanie 1:21:30

That a lot.

Dani 1:21:30

Uh, and

Stephanie 1:21:31

so I was like, how bad could it be? And the prosecutor's like, I guess we're finding out, we're gonna find out.

Dani 1:21:38

Oh, it was just a lot

Stephanie 1:21:39

of other people are gonna die because of this decision, but sure. Let's, let's let him go. Go have a little doctor visit.

Dani 1:21:46

Poor guy. Oh, he just, he was just a little worked up. He's sick, he was worked up. He just, you know, he really loved his wife and was mad at the boy. I can just see all this reasoning going on and somebody said, and he. Maybe he had just a little too much to drink that night. You know what? What

Stephanie 1:22:01

guy doesn't go after his wife's new boyfriend? I mean,

Dani 1:22:04

with a gun.

Stephanie 1:22:05

It could have been us.

Dani 1:22:06

Make him write a letter saying you'll never see her again, and then wanna go to the fucking oasis. I can see that happening a lot. I'm surprised he bitched out and even called the police about it. Jesus Christ, man up.

Stephanie 1:22:19

Oh, someone kidnapped you. Oh. Oh

Dani 1:22:22

no. Like, oh

Stephanie 1:22:22

boy. Why'd you let him kidnap you

Dani 1:22:24

pussy?

Stephanie 1:22:26

No, totally good old boys.

Dani 1:22:28

Yeah. I wouldn't have let the fucker in my house,

Stephanie 1:22:31

and

Dani 1:22:31

they're

Stephanie 1:22:31

like,

Dani 1:22:31

why didn't you have a gun on your hip when you answered the goddamn door? We wouldn't even be here.

Stephanie 1:22:35

Which I do think that is a good po nothing good's happening at 11:00 PM with an unexpected knock on the door

Dani 1:22:42

with a

1:22:42

gun.

Stephanie 1:22:42

And if it's not the police to tell you that someone, you know died, ugh, then it's, it's not good news.

Dani 1:22:49

I wanna know where, where the shades were. Why was there no peeking? Did

Stephanie 1:22:53

your, how you didn't have one little peep and see a street

Dani 1:22:56

man. We're not, we're not victim blaming here. We're just saying.

Stephanie 1:23:01

Look, know, knowing what we know, this is exactly where our, our mind go. And, and maybe because, maybe because men don't face these threats. They're like, I absolutely think

Dani 1:23:09

that back.

Stephanie 1:23:10

So I totally now, now we,

Dani 1:23:11

because like, what the fuck you want? Oh shit.

Stephanie 1:23:16

If someone's coming to my door, they must have good intentions at this time of night.

Dani 1:23:20

Or if they're coming to my door, fuck around and find out. What do you want? Maybe he had animals. Look, when I lived out in the country, I did get some knocks on my door. At fucking weird hours because from

Stephanie 1:23:33

Ricky,

Dani 1:23:36

my cows were out, my pigs were out.

Stephanie 1:23:38

Mm-hmm. My dogs were out.

Dani 1:23:40

Guess what? I wanna get up before they get hit by a car. Yeah. So maybe it was, I mean, we could hop off

Stephanie 1:23:44

you. You think that it's someone with good intent, right? Like surely someone needs to tell me something very important. I get it.

Dani 1:23:50

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:23:51

I just think as women, women, we are,

Dani 1:23:53

no, we're not answering the door. Ladies. Do not answer the door.

Stephanie 1:23:57

I don't think really any'cause No, we just, we live life differently. Yeah. We, we have a completely different life experience that most of us have had at least 10 weird experiences where we'd be like,

Dani 1:24:09

I should have died.

Stephanie 1:24:11

And, and this, so you're over vigilant. So, yeah. Sorry. Off on a tangent.

Dani 1:24:18

Thomas was then transferred to Jerome County custody to face the charge of stemming from the killing of Steven.

Stephanie 1:24:26

Yeah. They're like, we're next.

Dani 1:24:28

Thank

Stephanie 1:24:28

you.

Dani 1:24:28

You already got 40 years. Fucker. Let's go. Jerome County Prosecutor John Lpe, filed charges of first degree murder and burglary. Alleging Thomas deliberately entered the Eden area home of a ex-wife, Annamarie Thomas, armed with a handgun with the intent to kill prosecutors asserted the killing was premeditated, pointing to the evidence that Thomas had returned from South Africa, rented vehicles under false names and conducted surveillance of the hunt property before the shooting.

Stephanie 1:25:01

Absolutely wild.

Dani 1:25:03

Oh shocker. Thomas was held without bond.

Stephanie 1:25:06

learn. Learn the lesson on this one. Yeah.

Dani 1:25:10

The state's case centered on the testimony of Amar Annamarie Thomas Physical and forensic evidence recovered from the scene. The videotaped confession Thomas gave while jailed in Reno and evidence of Thomas's prior acts of violence towards men involved with his ex-wife.

Stephanie 1:25:27

Yeah,

Dani 1:25:28

obsess much.

Stephanie 1:25:29

There's a pattern here.

Dani 1:25:30

Yeah. Prosecutors made clear they intended to seek the death penalty.

Stephanie 1:25:35

Oh shit. Now you fucked up

Dani 1:25:37

pretty much, alleging aggravating factors, including utter disregard for human life and a continuing pattern of violent behavior. Agreed. Yeah. During pretrial motions, defense attorneys Lynn Dunlap and Marilyn Paul tried to suppress Thomas's confession arguing. It was coerced through psychological pressure and manipulation during a lengthy interrogation. That is literally their job. They also attempted to limit references to Thomas' kidnapping conviction and his alleged involvement in other violent acts, including the South African homicide, which he had a warrant for but wasn't convicted.

Stephanie 1:26:20

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:26:21

So I get why they wanna keep that out, because that's not a for sure thing. Fifth District Judge Monty Carlson ruled the confession admissible. And allowed limited discussion of Thomas's prior convictions while excluding evidence related to uncharged crimes, which would be the South African for Willem.

Stephanie 1:26:46

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:26:47

Because of extensive local publicity, Thomas's prior kidnapping conviction and fears about juror safety.

Stephanie 1:26:56

Damn.

Dani 1:26:57

Yeah, that's a, well, this guy's fucking nuts.

Stephanie 1:26:59

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:27:00

Defense attorney successfully moved for a change of venue.

Stephanie 1:27:04

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:27:04

And the trial was transferred to ADA County.

Stephanie 1:27:06

Not surprising.

Dani 1:27:08

No. Jerome County's tiny and

Stephanie 1:27:11

yeah, they need a bigger pool.

Dani 1:27:14

The trial formally opened in mid-April 1999. Prosecutors told jurors that on the morning of November 14th, 1997, Thomas entered the Hunt Road home. Shortly after 7:50 AM without warning, he confronted Steven Lauder and fired multiple shots. Annamarie prosecutor said, flood the home, screaming and ran toward. Her in-laws residence. Mm-hmm. Hearing gunshots as she escaped. So just to go into a little bit more detail, she opened the door and it was Thomas and he saw Steven and Steven had only moved in like a week before.

Stephanie 1:28:01

Oh shit.

Dani 1:28:02

Barely brand new. He probably didn't even have all of his shit there, honestly. Mm-hmm. and he saw him in the background and just bum rushed her. And just it was over. And she or she, she probably knew him better than anybody.

Stephanie 1:28:17

Well, yeah. This has already

Dani 1:28:18

happened

Stephanie 1:28:19

before. And she was,

Dani 1:28:19

listen, she ran to her in-laws and just to tell, like she'd just gotten outta the shower. Her hair was wet. It's cold and she's just running. How's scary?

Stephanie 1:28:31

That's insane.

Dani 1:28:34

Steven was struck multiple times, including fatal wounds to the chest and head. Anna-Marie testified early in the trial. She told jurors Thomas pushed his way into the house that morning and she thought maybe he was there to retrieve some personal belongings that he had left. Okay. Not okay. Still. She describes seeing Thomas armed with a handgun, and she said she ran when the confrontation began. Her testimony placed Thomas at the scene with a weapon moments before the shooting.'cause she, she ran so she wasn't an eye witness to the shooting. Yeah. And prosecutors repeatedly emphasized that she had no motive to fabricate her account, so like she has no reason to lie.

Stephanie 1:29:17

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:29:19

The state also presented forensic testimony from Medical Examiner, Dr. Todd Cameron Gray, who describes Steven's injury in detail. Steven had been shot in the arm, chest, abdomen, and head all over. Ugh. One bill, one bullet severed his aorta, which gray testified would've caused death within minutes. Another shot to the forehead appeared to have been fired while Steven was either on or near the floor based on the trajectory of the exit wound.

Stephanie 1:29:52

Shit.

Dani 1:29:53

So that being, it was overkill. Oh yeah. That's what they were trying to prove there. Investigators testified about physical evidence recovered days later, including a 38 caliber shell casing found in the driveway bearing a head stamp from the Pretoria metal press as South African manufacturer. Hmm. Jerome County Sheriff's Lieutenant Dan Chatterton testified this unusual marking helped link the ammunition to Thomas' travels and firearm access overseas. Additional testimony addressed the absence of certain items, including a bloody bra and a phone that were photographed but never logged into evidence points the defense would later bring up. And this just kind of reminded me, I relist to this every once in a while, the OJ Simpson case, where mm-hmm. It's just doubt, doubt, doubt, doubt, doubt. About. How they've conducted the investigation.

Stephanie 1:30:50

Yeah,

Dani 1:30:51

so I mean, his defense attorney is trying, they're going to latch onto anything they can. Yeah. Central to the prosecution's case was the videotaped confession recorded in Reno. Jurors watched several hours of footage in which Thomas described, returning to Idaho from South Africa, staking out the hunt road home, entering the house, and firing the gun during a confrontation with Steven. Thomas told officers the gun discharge while he was holding it and said the rest of the incident felt like, quote, a blur. He admitted taking the weapon back to South Africa because he believed it would be safer than disposing of it in the United States,

Stephanie 1:31:30

which is true,

Dani 1:31:31

and those guns were worth a lot more money.

Stephanie 1:31:33

Oh yeah.

Dani 1:31:34

Over there. Do those embargoes. But the defense attorneys attacked the confession as unreliable, pointing to the inconsistencies between Thomas's statements and the physical evidence. Thomas said he remembered firing only two shots while five bullets were recovered.

Stephanie 1:31:52

Hmm.

Dani 1:31:54

Because he was in a blind rage.

Stephanie 1:31:55

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:31:57

Thomas described a struggle, but investigators found little evidence of one. Dunlap argued Thomas was motivated by fear for his daughter and confessed to spare his family from further trauma. That's a stretch. Over the course of two weeks, jurors heard testimony from law enforcement officers, forensic experts, and civilian witnesses who placed Thomas in Idaho at the time of the killing.

Stephanie 1:32:23

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:32:25

Rental records, witness identifications and surveillance evidence were introduced to establish Thomas's movements before and after the shooting. This is more than circumstantial bitch. Yeah. By the time the state rested its case, prosecutors argued that they had shown a deliberate, methodical killing, rooted in longstanding resentment and escalating violence. He doesn't want his ex to be with anybody.

Stephanie 1:32:51

No. It's one of those ones where it's like, if you're not gonna be with me, you're not gonna be with anyone.

Dani 1:32:57

The defense they said had offered speculation, but no credible alternative explanation for Steven's death.

Stephanie 1:33:05

Sure.

Dani 1:33:06

How did he die? Yeah. And

Stephanie 1:33:09

I know that she wasn't there to witness it, but you run out of a house in a towel and you hear a bunch of shots and someone got shot.

Dani 1:33:14

Mm.

Stephanie 1:33:15

I wonder what happened. Like

Dani 1:33:17

the math is mathy.

Stephanie 1:33:18

Yeah.

Dani 1:33:20

When the defense began its presentation, attorneys Lynn Dunlap and Marilyn Paul made clear that they were not attempting to present a single alternative narrative to what happened inside that home. Instead, their strategy was to methodically challenge the reliability of the state's evidence. Point by point. And to argue that the prosecution had built his case on assumptions, omissions, and an emotionally charged confession rather than indisputable proof.

Stephanie 1:33:50

Alright, let's, let's

Dani 1:33:52

see. Isn't this So OJ Simpson?

Stephanie 1:33:54

Yeah. Okay. Well in so many, when I listen to other podcasts and stuff and you hear these defense attorneys and it's like, I don't know if I could do that for the rest of my life. Hold that. they're definitely innocent. Like you gotta do your job to prevent a retrial or an appeal. But some of like, I don't know if I could be in a defense attorney.'cause it seems like you have to just stick by that line for the rest of your life.

Dani 1:34:24

I think it would wear on you.

Stephanie 1:34:26

I, oh, it would. I couldn't do it. I could not do what I'd be like, yeah. Like that attorney letting him get out

Dani 1:34:33

on his hernia and gout. And then a man dies.

Stephanie 1:34:37

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:34:38

I mean, because Michael Phillips could have died that night.

Stephanie 1:34:42

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:34:42

And I do believe he had a very, very high, high chance. Oh

Stephanie 1:34:45

yeah.

Dani 1:34:46

but he is like, no, they're neglecting his medical needs. And then in hindsight, you're living with, he killed two other people after that.

Stephanie 1:34:53

Yeah. I know

Dani 1:34:55

they have

Stephanie 1:34:55

to have a good defense, but it's just like, what the fuck?

Dani 1:34:58

One allegedly.

Stephanie 1:35:00

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:35:03

The defense opened by returning jurors to the videotaped interrogation conducted in Reno. Nearly five months after Steven Ladder was killed, Jerome County Sheriff's Lieutenant Chatterton was recalled to the stand and questioned at length for three consecutive days.

Stephanie 1:35:19

Shit.

Dani 1:35:20

Dunlap focused on the structure tone and progression of the four and a half hour interview. Directing juror's attention away from the final moments of the confession, and towards the first several hours of questioning, he's trying to build something here. Mm-hmm. Dunlap argued that from the outset, investigators leveraged Thomas's known emotional vulnerability, particularly to his relationship with his 8-year-old daughter. And this is how they did that. That's coming. Okay. through careful questioning, Dunlap highlighted repeated references by chatterton to the potential consequences for Thomas's family if the case proceeded to trial. Chatterton acknowledged that he spoke frequently about Thomas's daughter and Thomas's parents, and about the possibility that family members could be forced to testify.

Stephanie 1:36:11

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:36:13

Which ev, it's a

Stephanie 1:36:14

real possibility.

Dani 1:36:15

And that's a good interrogation tactic. When Dunlap asked whether those statements could reasonably be interpreted as implying that a confession might reduce the severity of the charges, chatterton responded That such an inference. Could be drawn but insisted. His intent was to reduce resistance and encourage Thomas to tell the truth.

Stephanie 1:36:36

I think that's a moot point.'cause they can lie to you.

Dani 1:36:39

They

Stephanie 1:36:39

can lie legally.

Dani 1:36:40

Absolutely.

Stephanie 1:36:40

Fucking so. You could, you could say, if you confess, you won't get any time. Did you know that? Didn't, you know, they can literally just lie to you about anything.

Dani 1:36:48

They can

Stephanie 1:36:48

say, oh, well your wife actually said that you did this and they said that she saw you. And I

Dani 1:36:53

don't know if I agree with that.

Stephanie 1:36:55

I don't agree with it either. And in some states. You cannot, if the vic, if the person they're interviewing is under 18, there's some states that there, that is a thing where you can't,'cause that has come up with a lot of false confessions.'cause as a child you can,

Dani 1:37:13

I'm thrown back to that Steven Avery case.

Stephanie 1:37:15

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:37:16

Yeah. What was his name? Br. Brendan.

Stephanie 1:37:22

I dunno. I'm not good at that.

Dani 1:37:23

It was his

Stephanie 1:37:23

nephew, Brendan. But yeah, so. There are some states that he should

Dani 1:37:28

not have been interviewed.

Stephanie 1:37:29

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:37:29

He should not be in jail, I don't think. I just, there's not enough evidence there for me, personal opinion.

Stephanie 1:37:35

Anyway,

Dani 1:37:36

I'm gonna chalk it up.

Stephanie 1:37:37

Yeah.

Dani 1:37:39

The defense also pressed inconsistencies between Thomas's statements and the physical evidence. Thomas described using a 3 57 caliber handgun while the recovered slugs were 38 caliber. Chatterton explained that a 3 57 Magnum is capable of firing 38 caliber ammunition, but Dunlap emphasized that Thomas's confusion about such details suggested was unreliable rather than a truthful admission. Now,

Stephanie 1:38:10

I don't think that has a lot of weight.

Dani 1:38:14

Thomas also described a physical struggle, but the investigators found no clear signs of a fight inside the home. Who cares? Steven didn't have a gun. Yeah. So this was the big thing. he, Thomas said that they had struggled in the dining room and they didn't find any evidence of a struggle in the dining room. So that's what he's saying. Well,

Stephanie 1:38:35

he could have said that to try to cover his own ass. Yeah. Of like, I was just there to pick up my stuff and, and

Dani 1:38:41

then he Yeah. Fucking jumped me and I had to shoot him. Yeah. Fucking a gazillion times. No shit. Dunlap then turned to the evidence that was photographed but never collected. jurors were shown crime scene photographs depicting a bloody bra and a blood spattered. Telephone officers testified they could not recall how the bra came to be in the blood pool near Steven's body and suggested it may have been dragged during removal of the body. It could have. He sure it was in the bedroom. the defense argued that the failure to preserve those items deprive the jury of potentially critical information about the movements of the people inside the house during and after the shooting. You are no Johnny Cochran, bro.

Stephanie 1:39:29

Mm-hmm. This is a stretch.

Dani 1:39:30

Yeah. The defense also challenged the state's timeline and reconstruction of Steven's final moments. Dunlap questioned investigators about the distance between. Where Thomas said the first shot was fired and where Steven's body was ultimately found, Thomas had told officers the initial shot occurred near the dining room table while Steven's body was located approximately 12 feet away in a bedroom. Prosecutors argued, Steven attempted to flee, but Dunlap suggested the physical evidence did not conclusively support that. So he's saying no, he was ready. They were in a fight. Let's fight. Okay. Mm. As the defense case continued, jurors heard testimony intended to humanize Thomas Counter what Dunlap described as described as a bad guy. Image showed by the prosecution. Dude, he's a bad guy. Yeah, good luck. Friends, neighbors and acquaintances testified they're down to acquaintances. You know, it's pretty bad when you're down to acquaintances. testified about Thomas's close relationship with his daughter, describing the two, riding, four wheelers together, working on the farm and spending time outdoors. Several witnesses recalled Thomas decorating extensively for Christmas because she loved the lights and they said they frequently saw the child with her father. The Christmas light thing was kind of cute. I'll give you

Stephanie 1:40:53

that. Yeah,

Dani 1:40:54

some. Somebody had a big

Stephanie 1:40:57

Christmas. Um. Showing, you know, out in front of their house, and

Dani 1:41:03

he was like, I'm gonna outdo those guys.

Stephanie 1:41:05

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:41:06

For his daughter. So sweet. But you're still a, a murderer.

Stephanie 1:41:11

Yeah, you can, you can lick the holidays and still murder people.

Dani 1:41:14

Apparently. The defense then introduced expert testimony addressing the psychology of the interrogation. Here we go. Twin Falls psychiatrist. I shouldn't laugh. I'm just thinking these are not big city. It's just such a small city. Right. Okay. Twin false psychiatrist, Dr. Richard Wort testified that Thomas did not suffer from any diagnosable psychological or personality disorder. However, worst told jurors that Thomas exhibited a pronounced fear of emotional harm to his daughter. They're just all about, you know, his daughter and a strong protective instinct towards his family. Under certain circumstances were said those traits could make a person susceptible to falsely confessing if they believed doing so. Was shield loved ones.

Stephanie 1:42:03

This guy was no dummy as, as far as he was dumb to let his impulses take over. Mm-hmm. But I mean, he was able to get like these rental cars and obtain other people's identities. Like he wasn't a, like an incompetent person.

Dani 1:42:24

No worst testified that repeatedly invoking Thomas's daughter's potential involvement in court proceedings could function as psychological leverage. Duh.

1:42:38

That's

Stephanie 1:42:39

what it's meant to be. Yeah.

Dani 1:42:41

He told jurors that he could not say whether Thomas was telling the truth or lying during his confession

Stephanie 1:42:48

Anyway, like

Dani 1:42:51

Another expert witness, Portland forensic scientist, Raymond Grims Bow, testified about gunshot residue testing conducted on Steven Ladder's hands. GMO explained that when a firearm is discharged, microscopic particles are expelled in a cloud that can settle on the shooter's hands. We all know this. Mm-hmm. If you watched a Dateline, he testified that testing revealed a relatively high number of particles on Steven's right hand. So he's indicating, and I might have wrote this down, he's indicating that what the defense is trying to do and say he shot a gun. They're trying to do a little self-defense. Little, okay. I mean, the, the stretch is stretching.

Stephanie 1:43:35

Very much so.

Dani 1:43:38

while prosecution argued that the residue could have been transferred when Steven raised his arms defensively. GMO told jurors it was more consistent with Steven having fired a weapon himself shortly before his death. So prosecution is saying he got gunshot residue from holding up his hands. Defense is saying he shot him. He shot him.

Stephanie 1:44:02

Wow.

Dani 1:44:03

Under cross-examination prosecutor John Beck?

Stephanie 1:44:10

Yeah,

Dani 1:44:11

sure. Thank you. That is such a, that's a crazy one. Emphasize that no firearm was ever found on or near Steven,

Stephanie 1:44:21

which he wouldn't have been able to hide it because he was dead and his girlfriend was gone,

Dani 1:44:28

and that residue alone could not establish that Steven had fired a gun.

Stephanie 1:44:32

What a weird defense.

Dani 1:44:33

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:44:34

Okay.

Dani 1:44:35

Dunlap repeatedly argued to what he described as investigative gaps. That's his whole defense here,

Stephanie 1:44:42

and oftentimes that's a thing

Dani 1:44:44

and it can work.

Stephanie 1:44:46

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:44:47

He questioned why certain items were not collected, why some evidence appeared late, and why the state's theory required jurors to accept Thomas's confession as both unreliable when inconvenient and accurate when supported of the prosecution's narrative.

Stephanie 1:45:03

Okay, sure.

Dani 1:45:04

Dunlap is doing his thing.

Stephanie 1:45:06

Yeah,

Dani 1:45:07

he's defensive. By the time the defense rested, Dunlap told jurors he was not asking them to determine exactly what happened inside the home that morning. He argued that the law required only that the state eliminate reasonable doubt and that unresolved inconsistencies missing evidence. And a contested confession prevented the standard from being met.

Stephanie 1:45:30

And sometimes that works where you have a holdout on the jury that's like

Dani 1:45:34

me, me.

Stephanie 1:45:35

But you can, you prove that he didn't, the guy that got killed, didn't shoot. Can like, where's

Dani 1:45:41

the video?

Stephanie 1:45:42

Where's the body count? If I don't have a video of it, then I can't just use my brain cells.

Dani 1:45:49

And here we go with a ton of witnesses. Closing arguments began on April 23rd, 1999. After nearly two weeks of testimony, more than 140 witnesses

Stephanie 1:46:00

damn

Dani 1:46:01

and hundreds of exhibits presented to the ADA County jury prosecutor John. Ick, God, I'm gonna fuck that up. I just brain the case as a methodical act of violence carried out by a man with a documented history of threatening and attacking man involved with his ex-wife. Let it go, bro. He argued that Steven Ladder never had a chance to defend himself. He told jurors that the physical evidence supported a sequence in which Steven attempted to escape after the initial shots were fired. Yeah, it just sucked. He ended up in a fucking bedroom.

Stephanie 1:46:38

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:46:40

He argued that this is not a struggle, not an accident, and not a moment of confusion, but an execution carried out at close range.

Stephanie 1:46:49

And that's, I mean, he was staking this place out.

Dani 1:46:52

Hello? Yeah. He, yeah. If he was just going to get a shit,

Stephanie 1:46:55

no,

Dani 1:46:57

and then to say that in the confession, like if he was trying to protect his daughter and his family, he didn't have to say, well, I wouldn't watch him for a little bit. He could just think, yeah, I shot him.

Stephanie 1:47:10

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:47:11

No he didn't.

Stephanie 1:47:12

Yeah. I went there just to think I could pick up my shit and it he,

Dani 1:47:15

and that guy was there and he said some mean words to me and then boom. But that's not what he did. He's like, no, I went and watched and I saw a man there and I didn't like it.

Stephanie 1:47:25

And we know that he's done this before

Dani 1:47:27

and he, the reason the timing was in the morning, he wanted his daughter gone. Like there is some thought processes there. His daughter had been, is already at school that morning. And the prosecutor returned repeatedly to the testimony of Annamarie, reminding jurors that she placed Thomas at the scene, saw him enter the home, heard the gunshots as she ran barefoot to Thomas's parents' house to call 9 1 1. Beck acknowledged that the defense had attacked her credibility, which I don't know, there was nothing of that in the newspaper exactly like. Why they were, why, yeah. What her credibility issues were. Wish I knew. but argued that her statements were consistent with the physical evidence with Thomas's own recorded confession. Yeah. Same. Same. Addressing the defense claim of a Coarsed confession. Law spec told jurors that Thomas was not confused, impaired, or manipulated into inventing details. Investigators did not already know.

Stephanie 1:48:31

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:48:31

Yeah. Defense attorney Lynn Dunlap followed by systematically revisiting each weakness. He believed the prosecution failed to resolve, so he is saying that there was no murder weapon was ever found. The evidence then was found around, was never collected, and that investigators could not conclusively reconstruct Steven's movements inside the house.

Stephanie 1:48:55

Well, and here's, they didn't fuck up on anything that was really consequential. Like the bra. Sure, they should have.

Dani 1:49:05

They should have.

Stephanie 1:49:06

But that there's nothing about it that could be like,'cause they, we've seen cases where someone mishandles a very important piece of evidence. Like, oh, we didn't, we didn't test their hands for gunshot residue. Nobody's, well, that's kind of a big fucking deal. And that would've helped a lot. A bloody bra, like people have laundry on the floor. Someone's like this was not collected and tagged. It had nothing to do with the crime.

Dani 1:49:36

No.

Stephanie 1:49:37

So, yeah,

Dani 1:49:38

I, and to reconstruct a quick, I mean this, I don't imagine this was a, a long, drawn out thing from my reading. He came in, he pushed back past his ex-wife and was like, gonna fucking gun. I'm shooting

Stephanie 1:49:54

you.

Dani 1:49:54

Yeah. He's gunning this guy down. So a struggle in the di was a struggle. Maybe Steven trying to get around a dining room chair. What I mean, and, and you don't know what that maybe there was a ton of shit on the floor.

Stephanie 1:50:06

Why does it matter if they even struggled? Like even if supposedly if we're going on the line of, of the dude shop first that lives there and if someone comes into your house. And, and is a threat to your life actively, you can shoot them and like

Dani 1:50:31

Dunlop is defense and I will say he's trying

1:50:34

and

Stephanie 1:50:34

he's doing, and that is what I think that also needs to be said about defense attorneys is they have sometimes next to nothing. And as in this case, yeah. Where you're like. And if you don't,

Dani 1:50:46

where's the bloody bra?

Stephanie 1:50:48

If you don't grasp at those straws, then that's gonna come up on appeal.

Dani 1:50:53

Yeah. So,

Stephanie 1:50:54

or retrial or whatever.

Dani 1:50:55

I will give him kudos for that. I mean, like you said, defense attorneys, that's a whole different thing. Yeah. But he has to try his best. And you know what, if they don't, we're we're gonna get appeal appeals pills. Like, well, inadequate, counsel representation. Yeah. Yeah. Because, he didn't talk about the bloody bra or the phone. That was never brought into evidence.

Stephanie 1:51:17

Yeah. Which doesn't fucking make a difference. But you've gotta do it some,

Dani 1:51:20

maybe Dunlap did the good thing because it was sealed tight.

Stephanie 1:51:23

Yeah.

Dani 1:51:23

He's like, I brought up this and this and this and this. Like he's doing his thing. Sure.

Stephanie 1:51:29

Frustrating though. And honestly. The another that's humiliating to me to be like, what about this bra when everyone knows the bra doesn't,

Dani 1:51:41

I have tossed my bra on the floor

Stephanie 1:51:43

and you're You're dying on the hill of the bra. Yeah. When it's like he walked in, she heard the shots and ran away. The man was shot. Eh, who else would've done it? Who else? So some, another intruder came in and was like,

Dani 1:51:58

it was the dog.

Stephanie 1:51:58

I can't,

Dani 1:51:59

definitely the dog.

Stephanie 1:52:00

I'm so glad someone else came in here because now I get to frame them.'cause I've been wanting to shoot this dude in a rural farm property. No, I couldn't. I could, I couldn't do it. But props to

Dani 1:52:12

those

Stephanie 1:52:12

that

Dani 1:52:13

do.

Stephanie 1:52:13

This is his big final

Dani 1:52:16

Dunlap. Dun that told jurors that they were not being asked whether Thomas was capable of violence, but whether the state had proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he murdered Steven Lauder in the manner alleged.

Stephanie 1:52:30

Well, and some people do take that reasonable doubt so much to heart where there, again, like we've said, if there's not a fucking video of it, how do we actually know anything could happen when it's like, yeah, let's. Use a little discernment here.

Dani 1:52:46

Yeah, just a smidge, after final instructions from District Judge Monty Carlson.

Stephanie 1:52:54

That's a very cool name.

Dani 1:52:55

The jury began deliberations late on April 23rd. Idaho law requires that juries be sequestered because the charge was first degree murder. Jurors were escorted to a hotel and deliberated for more than five hours. You mean as little as five hours?

Stephanie 1:53:13

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:53:13

Before returning a verdict?

Stephanie 1:53:15

Yeah.

Dani 1:53:17

Alright. As little as

Stephanie 1:53:18

five

Dani 1:53:18

hours. Uh, when the jury reentered the courtroom, family members of Stephen Lauder filled the benches behind the prosecution table. The jury found Jimmy Rell Thomas guilty of first degree murder. The jurors concluded Thomas entered the Hunt Road home, pushed past his ex-wife. Fired five shots from that 3 57 and killed Steven as he attempted to flee.

Stephanie 1:53:43

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:53:46

Oh my Gotta be so pissed. Like I just think about my house and like if somebody was like, I opened the front door and I was scared where I would go, I have an immediate back door. Mm-hmm. That's where I would go. But not all houses are worked out that way.

Stephanie 1:54:02

Right.

Dani 1:54:02

And you gotta make some twists and turns.

Stephanie 1:54:06

Scary stuff

Dani 1:54:07

and you just can't. Yeah. Poor Steven. This is bullshit.

Stephanie 1:54:11

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:54:11

This is, and

Stephanie 1:54:12

just being, waking up. I'm not ready for that.

Dani 1:54:15

No, as the verdict was read aloud. Steven's nephew, David clenched his fist before lowering his head and embracing family members seated. Around him. Thomas stood with his hands handcuffed behind his back. His parents sat nearby, his father placing an arm around his mother as she watched their son. Oh, I feel so bad for family members. Mm-hmm. Of assholes.

Stephanie 1:54:43

What a terrible position to be put into.

Dani 1:54:47

Thomas was expressionist until he turned towards his parents and told them it was all right. And they, they should take care of each other. Those poor fucking parents. Mm-hmm. You know, I bet you they were good people didn't raise an asshole, they just fucking ended up with one.

Stephanie 1:55:02

Right. And then they're lucky enough that they still get to see the grandkid and that she lives nearby and hasn't taken out. Her resentment, rightful resentment of this weird ass motherfucker on them.

Dani 1:55:16

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 1:55:17

And here they are.

Dani 1:55:20

Thomas said, did cry when his daughter was mentioned and I do believe he did have like love

Stephanie 1:55:28

for her.

Dani 1:55:28

Yeah. But I can't go around murdering about it. You can't.

Stephanie 1:55:33

Crazy way of showing it. And we're, we're on international crime sprees now that's not helping her.

Dani 1:55:40

District Judge Monte Carlson had to determine whether Thomas would spend the rest of his life in prison or be sentenced to death.'cause the death penalty mm-hmm. Is on the table. It's

Stephanie 1:55:48

on the table.

Dani 1:55:49

Under Idaho law, Carl Simmons was required to weigh the aggravating and mitigating factors and the defense filed motions for any trial, all of which were denied.

Stephanie 1:55:59

Mm-hmm. Defense, be defense going through the motions. Yeah.

Dani 1:56:02

during the sentencing hearing, members of Steven's family addressed the court describing the loss they lived with. since 1997, Steven's oldest daughter Jennifer, spoke about the impact of her father's death. Oh, I love this part telling the court that she had lived with a reoccurring nightmare since learning he had been shot. That's not my favorite part. This is my favorite part. She asked the judge to treat Thomas as Thomas had treated her father, telling Carlson that Steven had been shown no mercy.

Stephanie 1:56:33

Yeah. And I, I think it's very poignant to have the daughter of the victim do that.'cause like you said, he was. He did care for his own daughter. The murderer.

Dani 1:56:45

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:56:46

And so it's like, well, no matter how much you care, look what you've done to another person's daughter.

Dani 1:56:53

And let You want me to read you a little thing?

Stephanie 1:56:56

I do.

Dani 1:56:56

Okay. Let me find it. So his daughter wrote a letter to the newspaper.

Stephanie 1:57:08

Who's the murderer's? Thomas's daughter?

Dani 1:57:10

No, Steven's daughter.

Stephanie 1:57:11

Oh, okay.

Dani 1:57:13

Okay. I mean. We have made fun of a lot of things, in this episode with regards to, you know, what an idiot the murderer was. Yeah. But this just kind of made me sad.

Stephanie 1:57:30

Oh, I can tell.

Dani 1:57:31

I, in December, December 28th, 1998, the letter written by his daughter Jamie, and she lived in Texas. But she wrote to the paper here in Idaho, the Times News. I am the 14-year-old daughter of former Eden resident Steven m Lauder. My dad was shot and killed on November 14th, 1997, and Jimmy Thomas has been charged with his murder. I'm having problems understanding the way our judicial system is handling this case. I feel that this man should not deserve to have a fair trial. This crime took away the most valuable and important things in our lives. This attorney wants to have Thomas evaluated. Why? Why do we as taxpayers have to pay for him to live in prison when my dad was the victim? When you murder somebody and you take that person away from the ones who love them for no reason, you deserve not to have anything Fair. I myself am puzzled about why, for any reason someone would kill my dad. My dad was an honest, hardworking man in his life. He never hurt or did anything to anybody. I hope that whoever reads this will understand what has been done to the louder family and the residents of Eden and Hazelton, Idaho. Well understand what I'm trying to say. I would also like to let Jimmy Thomas know that my dad's death has changed my life dramatically, and ask him how his daughter would feel as some strange man walked into his house and shot and killed her dad for no reason.

Stephanie 1:59:14

Oh, good for her.

Dani 1:59:16

How would she feel if the only way to see her dad was to look at a picture and the only way to close be close to him was to go sit by his headstone and talk to him like he was sitting there with her. How would she feel?

Stephanie 1:59:31

That is very, for a 14-year-old to write that and she's got great points. I mean, this is, I think that we understand the judicial system fairly well, maybe better than the average bear, but it still doesn't make it feel good. We know. We know why, and

Dani 1:59:50

especially I just, that just takes me back to being 14 and you have all of those emotions. I

Stephanie 1:59:55

mean, and she said it so well. Yeah. For being a 14-year-old.

Dani 1:59:58

On point, that girl. Mm-hmm. I mean, and you just go back to thinking how like, no, you don't get fair shit. It

Stephanie 2:00:06

can't be like that.

Dani 2:00:07

Like, I'm 14, shit ain't fair to me.

Stephanie 2:00:10

Mm-hmm.

Dani 2:00:10

This guy's a horrible

Stephanie 2:00:12

person. And having to listen to like the defense stuff where you're like, come on.

Dani 2:00:16

Yeah.

Stephanie 2:00:16

Oh, this bloody bra that has nothing to do. And we're, they're like hounding on it, like. You cannot find him guilty because there was this completely irrelevant piece of evidence that wasn't logged that, what would it have proven? Tell me what it would've proven. What would it have proven? Nothing. They're just, and listen, sometimes you have a case with that. Yeah. And sometimes you can bring up good points, but No. And her, the intelligence to be like, so you love your daughter, right? It seems like people can agree on that.

Dani 2:00:47

Yeah. My dad loved me too. Like,

Stephanie 2:00:49

yeah. And I love exactly. Ooh. Good job, girl. Wow.

Dani 2:00:56

Yeah, it was very

Stephanie 2:00:57

I. Impactful. Impactful.

Dani 2:00:57

Yeah. Very

Stephanie 2:00:58

impactful.

Dani 2:00:59

I love how sweet it was. She's like, taxpayers dollars. I'm

Stephanie 2:01:05

not even paying taxes

Dani 2:01:06

yet, but should we pay for this? Who is his? Ladies and gentlemen,

Stephanie 2:01:10

let's, what about his gout? Let's let him out again. Why don't we just do that?

Dani 2:01:14

Oh, that poor girl.

Stephanie 2:01:15

Good job, girl.

Dani 2:01:16

And at such a time in her life where. I mean, we all know how the teenagers go. Mm-hmm. to have this traumatic experience.

Stephanie 2:01:25

No, that was, and this is, there's no way AI helped with that. Wow.

Dani 2:01:30

No, she wrote that.

Stephanie 2:01:31

Get a girl.

Dani 2:01:31

Yeah.

Stephanie 2:01:32

Oh, poor baby. I'm sorry for her. Yeah. But good for, and his

Dani 2:01:36

family

Stephanie 2:01:37

for, and it's, I, I think it's important for like jurors and judges to see that and for the fucking criminal, because it seems like this guy was probably like a little narcissistic, like, oh, fuck yeah. Doesn't think of others. Really did value his

Dani 2:01:51

baby girl's super important.

Stephanie 2:01:52

Mm-hmm. And he's probably never even thought other girls also have dads that they love.

Dani 2:02:00

Right.

Stephanie 2:02:00

Including the dude that I killed. Oh shit.

Dani 2:02:05

I still don't think give a fuck

Stephanie 2:02:07

and probably

Dani 2:02:07

not good for you girl.

Stephanie 2:02:08

But she said it.

Dani 2:02:09

That took, that took a lot of guts to write a letter to the editor to be

Stephanie 2:02:15

mm-hmm.

Dani 2:02:15

Put in the paper. Good for you.

Stephanie 2:02:17

Yeah.

Dani 2:02:17

Oh, I bet you she's. That takes a lot. I hope she's

Stephanie 2:02:21

doing good.

Dani 2:02:21

Me too. So of course that defense attorney, Linda Dun, I shouldn't say that fucking, I wanted to say that fucking attorney. Look, he's doing his job. He

Stephanie 2:02:31

is doing,

Dani 2:02:31

he's doing his job and he

Stephanie 2:02:32

has to or else there's problems.

Dani 2:02:34

Yeah. And I totally agree with you. so he argued for the life sentence without parole. He told the court that while the jury had returned a guilty verdict, the crime did not rise to the level required for execution under I. Yeah, it did. It did. Dunlap compared the case to other first degree murder convictions that have resulted in life sentences. Arguing that the death penalty was reserved for the worst of the worst, and this case did not meet that standard bro.

Stephanie 2:03:04

How hard is that to

Dani 2:03:05

say in front of this girl,

Stephanie 2:03:07

you know? Yeah, he sure. Did you

Dani 2:03:09

say

Stephanie 2:03:09

that

Dani 2:03:10

with a

Stephanie 2:03:10

straight

Dani 2:03:10

face?

Stephanie 2:03:11

We give, but is it, does he deserve to die? And she's like, no.

Dani 2:03:16

Well, he needs to die like it's reserved for the worst of the worst, sir. Um, he's been killing people since 1977.

Stephanie 2:03:24

Yeah.

Dani 2:03:26

he shot his quote unquote friend Willem and stuffed him in a fucking freezer. No. Are you fucking anyway,

Stephanie 2:03:34

and assumed his identity. I think that is like more. Insult to injury. Someone's like, now I'm you after they killed you. Oh, it's fucking weird.

Dani 2:03:44

Dunlap emphasized that Thomas would never be released from prison, and that a life sentence would adequately protect the public. It's not about adequately protecting at this point. It's eye for an eye at this point. Mm-hmm. So, on August 19th, 1999, judge Carlson issued his sentencing decision. He ruled that although the murder was not unusually atrocious or cruel under the statute, right? Sure. Thomas had demonstrated an utter disregard for human life and a pattern of violent conduct, lots of violent conduct. that's my see that posed a continuing threat. Carlson said Thomas had hunted Steven Lauder in the same way a big game. Hunter tracks prey.

Stephanie 2:04:31

I love that he tied that in.

Dani 2:04:33

Based on those findings, Carlson sentenced Thomas to death. The ruling ended nearly two years of uncertainty for Steven's family. I can't imagine having some killer running around. relatives cried and embraced each other. As the sentence was read. Carlson ordered Thomas transferred to death row at the Idaho Maximum Security Institution. Thomas showed little outward emotion. As a sentence was, sentence was imposed. He didn't, and of course, we're going to appeals. Appeals, appeals, appeals, appeals. and they also appealed the, during, after that was done. And while he's doing his other appeals, they also were trying to appeal the earlier kidnapping conviction,

Stephanie 2:05:20

give it up

Dani 2:05:20

and the maximum 40 year sentence imposed for abducting, Michael Phillips. In 1996, the appellate court rejected arguments that Thomas had been denied a fair trial and ruled that the sentencing judge had acted within his discretion citing Thomas's criminal history.

Stephanie 2:05:35

Mm-hmm.

Dani 2:05:36

Because they were saying 40 years is too long. That was their whole thing, like and is the sta

Stephanie 2:05:40

that's what you can get.

Dani 2:05:42

Guess what? Fuck around and find out when it says this is the maximum sentence.

Stephanie 2:05:46

You embarrassed the judge. And I know that that's not part of the thing, but it's like, if that is, if. If you can get a certain amount of years maximum. Mm-hmm. And you embarrass the judge, and now this is a mark on them of bad judgment. Their job is to be a good judge.

Dani 2:06:07

I should

2:06:07

have

Stephanie 2:06:07

followed

2:06:07

up

Dani 2:06:07

on that judge.

Stephanie 2:06:09

Oh, they're, they're going, I'm just curious And, and you got to go and live your life and murder other people. They know the consequences now. Like I know that they probably shouldn't be including that, but it's like. Oh,

Dani 2:06:25

Oh, here we go. In September of 2003, the Idaho Supreme Court overturned multiple death sentences statewide after ruling that sentencing procedures violated constitutional requirements

Stephanie 2:06:37

because we done fucked up.

Dani 2:06:38

We know that. Yeah, it has to be a jury, not a judge. We went over there several times.

Stephanie 2:06:43

Idaho was just. It was the wild wall was and can't be doing that.

Dani 2:06:48

So Thomas's death sentence was vacated as part of that decision, and his case was returned to the district court for recent resentencing. Thomas remained incarcerated and continued to face the possibility of life imprisonment without parole, but he for sure had that 40 years on him. Oh, it's done. But before any re-sentencing could take place, Thomas died in custody. On April 14th, 2005, correctional officers found Thomas seated on the floor of a cell at the Idaho Maximum Security Institution complaining of chest pain. During routine count time, he was taken to the prison's medical unit where staff called 9 1 1. Thomas suffered a second heart attack while being transported to the hospital and was pronounced dead. Later that afternoon. He was 61 years old and Ada County coroner's office determined he died of natural causes. Damn. Ended that story. Boom. Mic drop. He didn't serve long enough time in prison,

Stephanie 2:07:52

but the taxpayers got a break.

Dani 2:07:55

Mm. Yeah.

Stephanie 2:07:59

What a story. I cannot believe this hasn't been on Dateline. Someone from little old Idaho who did a murder in California. Did. And then, I'm not saying it hasn't, but I, I typically, those kind of things come up when I'm searching. People from Idaho. I mean, we have big game hunters. Sure. But especially back then to like, have connections to South Africa.

Dani 2:08:25

I was like, what the fuck is this shit? Yeah. This

Stephanie 2:08:27

is wild.

Dani 2:08:28

the twists and turns in this really was like, I was like, what the fuck, what? Wait, huh? And then he's killing people in south. I was like, what is going on? You

Stephanie 2:08:36

can't stop. Like you could have lived, you could. You got away with it twice. You got you escaped on sentencing. You came back and fucked up. And it went back like,

Dani 2:08:47

and this all started,

Stephanie 2:08:49

no one to hold him, no one to fold him.

Dani 2:08:53

This all started with Steven's death. Mm-hmm. That's where my research started. I was like, oh my God, who is this guy? He killed this guy. Okay. And I'm looking at it and it's like, and then this,

Stephanie 2:09:04

he had that previous on

Dani 2:09:06

and then I'm like, oh, he. Oh, he kidnapped his ex. He

Stephanie 2:09:10

definitely killed that other guy too.

Dani 2:09:12

Oh, George, for sure.

Stephanie 2:09:14

The convenient deposit of$7,000.

Dani 2:09:16

That just nailed it for me.

Stephanie 2:09:18

Yeah.

Dani 2:09:18

You know, I think nowadays he probably would've been done.

Stephanie 2:09:22

Yeah.

Dani 2:09:23

But I do think that, this is one thing I will say about the death penalty is I think it makes some people, um. Are against it, it

Stephanie 2:09:34

makes, and that affects their decision on the jury.

Dani 2:09:35

Yep. Yep.

Stephanie 2:09:36

Sorry, I didn't mean to take that from you, but I just could tell we were right on the same page

Dani 2:09:40

with that. No, and then they're, they're, they're like, well, I don't want my testimony to make somebody die. And very simply put,

Stephanie 2:09:47

and then those, those questions of doubt that the defense has put up that don't even make any sense, but they're like. If you didn't have an actual videotape, how could you know an alien could have came down and shot this guy in the head? We don't know. And so then you're like, I'm about to kill someone.

Dani 2:10:05

And then do you really trust your memory?'cause ask me what I ate last Saturday for dinner. Couldn't tell you.

Stephanie 2:10:11

Could not tell you,

Dani 2:10:12

but you want me to tell you what this guy said or did, or what? And then you have to doubt yourself when you're thinking about somebody possibly. Mm-hmm. Being. Put to death for it. So,

Stephanie 2:10:23

cause we know our own fault and our memory and our decisions. Mm-hmm. And so then we're like, this is a decision. I think it's'cause people know the weight of it, which is good. I'm glad people think of that. But

Dani 2:10:36

they're not willy-nilly just being like the guy, like they can't see. And you could, there's seen, there's a case where some woman didn't, didn't have glasses or something and she like, they pointed out somebody on the, and it's like you can't even see. So,

Stephanie 2:10:49

and some of those. It's like, you know, you trust yourself, but that will make you not trust yourself.

Dani 2:10:55

Oh

Stephanie 2:10:56

hell yes. Even when you know and second guess yourself and no, that death penalty. I'm glad you pointed that out

Dani 2:11:04

because that would make me think really, really hard if I'm absolutely sure. X, y, Z happened

Stephanie 2:11:10

and how Absolutely. Sure. Can anyone be about anything when that much is on the line,

Dani 2:11:14

our mind is very fucking deceiving. Yes,

Stephanie 2:11:16

yes.

Dani 2:11:17

You can think of a memory and.

Stephanie 2:11:20

Remember it completely differently.

Dani 2:11:22

Yeah.

Stephanie 2:11:23

Anyway. Great one Danny, this is gonna be a good one.

Dani 2:11:28

Thank you ma'am.

Stephanie 2:11:29

I always know when Danny has a lot of fun researching it.'cause all of our cases are interesting, but when she's like extra locked in, I know it's gonna be a. A crazy story.

Dani 2:11:40

I just really appreciate when I'm thinking, I'm researching one thing and it goes way left, then way, right? And then you're like, what the fuck is happening? So some of my favorites are that way because. It is down and dirty. Just digging in. I'm like reading newspaper articles for, this was fucking 25 years worth of newspaper articles where I'm researching and fuck you Jimmy, for having a stupid name. You should have been just named anyways.

Stephanie 2:12:07

Is it Jimmy? Is it James? Is it y? Is it IE? No one knows and they the journalist. You can't just assume someone's a James.

Dani 2:12:17

No, not only the, let me just tell you, there was a most wanted, put it out by the twin. Uh, the Twin Falls.

Stephanie 2:12:26

Oh God.

Dani 2:12:27

It's a most wanted kind of like picture in the newspaper. It's just a little like two by three thing and it says, looking for, and it said James Thomas, James V. Thomas. They didn't even get it right. So. Good thing I'm Googling James too. Anyway, that's all I got kids. That was a lot.

Stephanie 2:12:49

Yeah, that was a good one, Danny. reach out to us if you'd like the lethal library@gmail.com.

Dani 2:12:54

check out our ticky talks.

Stephanie 2:12:56

We're back on the ticky talk.

Dani 2:12:58

we dedicated some time.

Stephanie 2:13:00

We had fun

Dani 2:13:01

and we got some ticky talks and so we should have more coming out this week.

Stephanie 2:13:05

And again, we got it. People who do TikTok as a job. Holy shit.

Dani 2:13:12

We had to take like a whole evening to record a handful

Stephanie 2:13:15

because, and have the plans. And listen, could some of them have had a better take? Yeah. But after you've done it three times, you're like, yeah,

Dani 2:13:22

that's good enough.

Stephanie 2:13:23

I'm gonna do it. But they do it perfect. And so I'm just wondering like how many takes people are doing so. Props to you talkers. We're

Dani 2:13:30

storytellers, not talkers, but it's fun. We have

Stephanie 2:13:33

fun. It's fun and we love the Salinas of it. So check us out. tell

Dani 2:13:37

your friends about our podcast, please.

Stephanie 2:13:39

Yeah, word of mouth. And you know, if you wanna Chi chat, email us if you've got suggestions for a case. Absolutely. I'm down to research. That's my jam. She's very good at it, guys. It's literally her. Superpower. So, thank you again for listening. maybe in the future you'll be watching, we've had some feedback that people would like to have it on YouTube. Not really our jam, but we could do it. So

Dani 2:14:12

if you wanna watch us girls,

Stephanie 2:14:14

how badly does everyone want to have it on YouTube?

Dani 2:14:18

I've heard a lot.

Stephanie 2:14:18

I've heard several people, which is, it's just not how I listen to podcasts is I'm not

Dani 2:14:23

watching, it's watching. It's not me either, but you know what people say? Like, can I find lunch? I, oh yeah. I have a podcast. Like do, it's

Stephanie 2:14:29

available every, we have it on like 20 different apps

Dani 2:14:32

and I'm like, oh, it's everywhere. I do say that, and they're like, it is on YouTube.

Stephanie 2:14:35

YouTube.

Dani 2:14:37

No.

Stephanie 2:14:37

So anyway,

Dani 2:14:38

but if you wanna see us,

Stephanie 2:14:39

let us know.

Dani 2:14:40

Me messing with my glasses and

Stephanie 2:14:43

I might pick my nose. I mean, fuck, I don't know. And

Dani 2:14:45

drinking vodka cocktails

Stephanie 2:14:46

because I'm not video editing this shit, you guys. Nope.

Dani 2:14:49

You're gonna get what you get and you,

Stephanie 2:14:51

you won't throw fit. So if you want to see, we got it. Let it, let us know if it, if it's been a dream of yours to see if, see us on YouTube.

Dani 2:15:02

I don't know if it's a dream

Stephanie 2:15:03

just, but it might be a reality just to help. Push me to doing it'cause I don't love it. But

Dani 2:15:10

she is.

Stephanie 2:15:11

Yeah. But I love you guys. Yeah. So

Dani 2:15:13

we love our listeners. Mm-hmm. Let us know. Anyway,

Stephanie 2:15:18

this podcast brought to you by

Dani 2:15:20

the garage door.

Stephanie 2:15:21

Garage door. Thank you. Uh, ten four rubber decky. Fuck yeah. I don't even have to edit that into it. Jesus. All, all the timing of that one was amazing. Oh, that was great.