51. Justice Misguided: The Unlawful Detainment of Keith Gilmore

In this episode of The Lethal Library, Dani and Stephanie head back to North Idaho for a bizarre 1984 case that has everything: a stranger on a roadside walk, a weird note left near a bridge, bar chatter that turns into a bad idea, and a “citizen’s arrest” that escalates into something far darker in the woods. The situation quickly snowballs into a messy courtroom saga filled with refiled charges, heated arguments over what the law actually allows, questions about mental illness and credibility, and a community split on whether this was public safety or straight-up vigilante behavior. Plus, they share a few podcast updates (old episodes are back!) before diving into a story that will have you asking: how did this ever get this far?

Contact The Lethal Library at TheLethalLibrary@gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok!

Transcript

Dani 0:00

In April, 1984, a man walking along a rural north Idaho road was picked up by two strangers and taken into the woods within minutes. A rope was around his neck and draped over a tree branch. Deputies would later be told it was a citizen's arrest, not an attempted lynching. Uh, what followed was a year of court hearings, disappearances psychiatric questions, and a community divided over what really happened to Keith Gilmore.

Stephanie 0:34

This sounds very wild already.

Dani 0:38

Yes. and I debated whether to use that word lynching or not. just to let you know, these are all white men.

Stephanie 0:44

Mm-hmm.

Dani 0:45

Every single one of them. But the news, the reason I use that is because the newspapers we're using that word a lot. very sensational case.

Stephanie 0:56

Well. I mean, I can definitely look this up, but technically, if a group of people tries to hang another people, it's still vigilante style.

Dani 1:04

I know it's very related to

Stephanie 1:05

Yes, we

Dani 1:06

didn't racism, but that's, that's not where we're going here. So I just wanted to clarify. These are all white people.

Stephanie 1:11

Yeah.

Dani 1:11

and there's the newspapers though were love and they were selling the

Stephanie 1:16

papers.

Dani 1:16

They were loving that word. So they

Stephanie 1:18

were selling some papers. Alright everyone, welcome back to another episode of The Lethal Library. I'm Stephanie. I'm Dani, and we're back to tell you yet another true crime tale directly out of Idaho. Danny, you did have some things you wanted to update on?

Dani 2:06

Oh, yes. First of all, let me just tell you, Eric Hall

Stephanie 2:14

covered

Dani 2:14

him, died. We covered him, uh, in episode eight. he died, in prison. This last week. So,

Stephanie 2:24

for those that don't know, so this was the man that, murdered a flight attendant on the green belt in Boise. And it was a crazy case. There was helicopters. There was a, like a, someone that tried to do a faked it. Faked it, yeah. Faked saying that they were also attacked. It was a crazy story.

Dani 2:42

And he also killed another woman.

Stephanie 2:44

He did.

Dani 2:45

and. before he was finally caught and convicted. So anyways, he was a bad man, so he's dead at the age of 54. Bye. so he could have rotted longer, but No, just fucking boom. Yeah, gong get, but let me tell you stuff, so mm-hmm. I, I would like to say, oh yes, ask me about anything. I could tell you what episode. No, I don't. We are 50 episodes deep and I can't remember where we did what episode. So. I'm like, I'm just gonna go look on my apple Podcast feed and just go see what one it was. I know it was a really early one and I was scrolling through and guess what, what We only had 30 episode or wait 20, wait 30, 30 episodes in our feed. And I was like, what the fuck?

Stephanie 3:35

Excuse me.

Dani 3:36

so we had a little setting on our RSS feed that, because we are not professionals, uh, working on it, that was only limiting us, to our latest 30 episodes. So for all of our listeners out there who haven't been with us from the beginning. There's a whole nother set of episodes out there. If you're not aware, binge

Stephanie 3:58

away. I love

Dani 3:59

a good

Stephanie 4:00

binge.

Dani 4:00

Yeah. So, it's fixed now. So they'll all show up on your Spotify and everywhere

Stephanie 4:06

you listen, wherever

Dani 4:07

you listen, wherever you listen, it was probably doing this. We just throw it out in the world. So,

Stephanie 4:10

yeah, I thought that I noticed it and I thought that my Spotify was just like, needed, updated or something because, I had Danny check and I swear let her see ones that were. Farther back. So I was like, oh, I probably just gotta uninstall and reinstall, but I don't, I've already listened to those, so I didn't need to see those ones. But yeah, so now they're all available. I'm not sure why that was the default setting, because why wouldn't you want people to have access to all of your episodes?

Dani 4:35

Well, because most podcasters, as I've learned today, when I tried to figure out what the hell was going on, I asked chat like, why is only this many showing up? And it's like, oh, it's a setting. but then chat did say. most people don't make a past 10 episodes and we're on 50. So anyways,

Stephanie 4:51

you know what? Gotta give ourselves a pat on the back. I'm gonna

Dani 4:53

put that one in my pocket. Mm-hmm. Thanks chat.

Stephanie 4:55

Yeah, we're over 50 now, so just, it's been a crazy, crazy ride and I've loved it.

Dani 5:03

It's been a good time. so just, yeah, just wanna let you know. Little, little fun fact there.

Stephanie 5:07

Yeah. Tell your friends we have, if they weren't able to see them. And listen, if you're listening now and going back. We had some different audio. We are, we don't know what we're doing, so the audio may not be as good. The editing may be a little choppier. we were learning, we might talk

Dani 5:23

a little faster.

Stephanie 5:24

We were. We are learning so, we'll,

Dani 5:27

it's getting better.

Stephanie 5:28

It's, I think that if someone's never heard our first episodes, it goes back. They're gonna be like, oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. There's been some improvement here.

Dani 5:34

So, you know, uh, yeah. So we've, we, you know, growing and learning as we go.

Stephanie 5:40

Mm-hmm. So, cheers and go enjoy 20 episodes you may not have seen if you're newer. Woo.

Dani 5:45

Yeah.

Stephanie 5:46

What, what a treat. I would love for one of my favorite podcasts to be like 20 episode dump.

Dani 5:51

Boom. So you got that. I will say. Creech and Roe are my, it doesn't it. The audio is not, as good as I would like it to be, but those are some crazy stories,

Stephanie 6:02

very good stories,

Dani 6:03

and a lot to them. I think Creech was

Stephanie 6:06

almost three. It was like two and a half, three hours. Yeah, because, and then just'cause there's so much to go over to really thoroughly cover him.

Dani 6:14

And, also just, just in case you didn't know who Creech is, they. He, he had a botched

Stephanie 6:20

execution

Dani 6:21

attempt execution here in Idaho. It's just such a shit show and that's really what kind of, you hear us talk a lot about Idaho's death penalty and how we feel about it.'cause it's just such a mess. They have done things so wrong for so long. Um.

Stephanie 6:35

Mm-hmm.

Dani 6:35

And that really kind of stemmed our attitude, just watching this happen with that, with Creech.

Stephanie 6:40

Absolutely did. So

Dani 6:42

anyways, you ready to get into it?

Stephanie 6:43

Yeah, let's get into this story. I'm excited.

Dani 6:46

Sources used in today's episode are the Coe d'Alene Press, Bonner County Daily Bee, the Kellogg Evening News, the Idaho Statesman, that Bitch.

Stephanie 6:55

Mm-hmm.

Dani 6:55

And the Times News.

Stephanie 6:57

Alright, let's go.

Dani 6:58

And I'm gonna tell you the Times News has been good to me for Eastern Idaho.

Stephanie 7:02

Really?

Dani 7:02

Yeah. It has been. this didn't happen in eastern Idaho. Just for my past research though. Mm-hmm. I'm like, she deserves a nod. I'm just giving her an extra nod. Okay. For today. Thanks girl. Mm-hmm. In early April, 1984, Keith Gilmore, a 36-year-old resident of Fountain Valley, California, was staying with his parents, James and Monica Gilmore at their home in Harrison while visiting Northern Idaho Keith had been diagnosed as schizophrenic and had a history of mental illness. and he was actually living in a, like kinda like a, a home down there, he group home. But yeah, it was a group home, but okay. He had some independence and he was living down there. His parents had just recently moved to Northern Idaho. They're like, Hey son, come up for a visit. It's beautiful. And Northern Idaho is beautiful.

Stephanie 7:50

Yes, it

Dani 7:51

really is. Even the Kardashians think so. So the

Stephanie 7:53

Kardashians,

Dani 7:54

the Kardashians. Sit down. I'm getting a divorce.

Stephanie 7:58

Oh my God. Can we,

Dani 8:00

okay, let it

Stephanie 8:01

take a minute guys. Let it, let it sink in. Can

8:05

That

Stephanie 8:05

was,

Dani 8:05

I mean,

Stephanie 8:06

what I know.

Dani 8:07

Okay.

Stephanie 8:07

Get on outta here.

Dani 8:10

Uh, focus While Keith was up here, he liked to take walks along the rural roads near Lake Coeur d'Alene.'cause it is Forge. Sure.

Stephanie 8:22

Oh yeah. So pretty.

Dani 8:23

yeah. Get out there, go see some nature. It's probably a lot different than California.

Stephanie 8:28

Oh yeah. So

Dani 8:30

on the afternoon of April 7th, Keith was walking along a rural road near a bridge on Highway 97 where there were people were out, there was kids out there. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 8:40

There

Dani 8:41

were people fishing, but the kids were fishing too while walking. He fell and he got a bloody lip.

Stephanie 8:50

Oh.

Dani 8:51

And he was like, oh my God. He, he tried to get help. So he was kind of down on this kind hill, right? Sure. And he fell. So he, he walked up and back up to the main road. He is like, I need to get this cleaned up. Joe and Linda Brownson, and I'm gonna probably say that wrong so many times. It is Brownson and I wanna say Bronson, it's Brownson. Notice Keith walking near the bridge area. after he left the area, they found a note where he had been walking

Stephanie 9:24

a note,

Dani 9:25

a note. The note contained the words, sex, lust, angels, joy, and Satan.

Stephanie 9:37

Interesting.

Dani 9:38

Along with biblical quotations, the brown sins. Went to, went to their local bar and spoke with Roger McDonald, age 44 and Joseph Sanchez, age 32. While having a few beers, they told McDonald and Sanchez about the note and the man who dropped it.

Stephanie 10:01

Uh oh.

Dani 10:03

After hearing about the note, McDonald and Sanchez decided to look for Keith.

Stephanie 10:09

So I'm sorry you've had too many drinks. We're we're looking for someone based on a random note. Come on.

Dani 10:16

Later that afternoon, McDonald Sanchez and Brownson drove along. Look, Brownson is in on it. He's like. Let's go

Stephanie 10:25

find a hobby. This is weird.

Dani 10:27

Maybe too many bears. they drove along a rural road near Harrison where they saw Keith walking.'cause that's what he

Stephanie 10:35

was as he was. That's what he does. Yeah. Yeah.

Dani 10:36

When they pulled over, Keith asked the men for a ride because he had a bloody lip.

Stephanie 10:42

Mm-hmm.

Dani 10:43

He wanted to go get it. Cleaned up McDonald, got out of the pickup truck carrying a rifle and accused Keith of being a child molester.

Stephanie 10:52

Wow. We went zero to 100. Um, what, what's happening here? This is wild.

Dani 11:01

Keith appeared unkempt with messy hair, several days of a beard growth, and he wore unusual clothing.

Stephanie 11:09

Mm-hmm.

Dani 11:11

Keith climbed into the back of the pickup truck.

Stephanie 11:13

Oh my gosh.

Dani 11:16

After Keith got in the pickup truck, Joe Brownson left to go contact authorities. They're yes.

Stephanie 11:25

And y'all are probably drunk driving. Hey, come, come get this child molester that we picked up. Drunk driving.

Dani 11:32

Brownson said that after becoming concerned about Keith's behavior, he drove away to some of the sheriff's deputies because they started questioning this guy, right?

Stephanie 11:40

Thinking they can just interrogate someone

Dani 11:43

and they do.

Stephanie 11:45

Was there, like maybe there was some other rumor. I have to imagine there was some, had it been some rumor about Keith or something else than just

Dani 11:53

No, he was just there visiting, so

Stephanie 11:56

what the heck?

Dani 11:57

And he did look off.

Stephanie 12:00

Sure.

Dani 12:01

Right.

Stephanie 12:01

I think every town has the person

Dani 12:04

Yeah.

Stephanie 12:05

Who walks around and is looking weird. I know the one from Nampa. I can picture him in my head right now.

Dani 12:10

Yeah. And, but he was new, new to the area. Mm-hmm. He hadn't been walking

Stephanie 12:18

around, so there wouldn't have been a, a lore about him? No. Okay.

Dani 12:24

During the drive, Keith was giving the men inconsistent answers about where he was going, saying at different times that he was headed to a motel, that he was headed to Coeur d'Alene or back to California. He both admitted and denied writing the note that had been found under the bridge.'cause they're like, Hey, you know, they think they're police officers now. Um, this is

Stephanie 12:47

crazy.

Dani 12:48

And he also, he had lifted his shirt kind of up, I don't know if he was sweating or whatever, but it was cold out and it was raining and he was just acting very strange.

Stephanie 13:00

Okay,

Dani 13:02

so these guys. Decided to drive Keith to East Point Road, a wooded area south of Harrison McDonald. Told Keith he was under citizen's arrest.

Stephanie 13:15

Oh my gosh.

Dani 13:16

Keith tried to climb outta the truck and was ordered back in. They drove a little further and stopped again, and Keith was led off the road and into the woods. Keith said he stumbled and fell. Again, he'd already fallen once today. I shoe problem maybe. I don't know. and so he fell again and he believed at this point that he was gonna die.

Stephanie 13:39

Oh my gosh.

Dani 13:40

And so he got on his knees to pray. These guys have a gun.

Stephanie 13:45

Yeah. And

Dani 13:45

they're hauling you out to the woods.

Stephanie 13:46

They've kidnapped him. They're taking him to a remote location. Never go to the second location. but yeah. No, and it sounds like I. I can see there being like mental illness issues.'cause it sounds like he's also very compliant. Yeah. Like, you know, thinking that he has to listen to these people.

Dani 14:05

Exactly. He's not trying to ruffle any feathers.

Stephanie 14:08

No, this is so weird.

Dani 14:12

Sanchez took a loaded 22 caliber rifle and stood nearby. Why McDonald followed carrying a rope. About a hundred feet off the road. McDonald placed the rope around Keith's neck and threw the other end over a tree branch.

Stephanie 14:27

This, I cannot believe how quickly this has escalated. Just off the suspicion and like he hasn't admitted to anything. They haven't found anything. They're like,

Dani 14:38

can I just say though, the note did say lust and sex. And with biblical that all this stuff is all talked about in the Bible.

Stephanie 14:48

Mm-hmm.

Dani 14:48

So he was just, anyways, we'll get there. But,

Stephanie 14:51

yeah. Well, and I mean, if, if it didn't say anything about kids or anything, that's just,

Dani 14:56

yeah,

Stephanie 14:56

that's, it's crazy that a note like that was even that triggering, I mean, what was it called? Satanic panic. Like, it seems kind of like that. Like that same type of. Oh my gosh, over nothing. You look

Dani 15:12

weird. And you said the word lust and sex. You must be,

Stephanie 15:16

yeah, a child molester. What?

Dani 15:19

Yeah. So McDonald, after he put the rope around his neck, threw it over the tree. The rope was drawn tight.

Stephanie 15:29

Oh my God.

Dani 15:32

Keith said he was grasping for air and believed he was gonna die. I would too. Keith? Same.

Stephanie 15:37

Yeah. It seems pretty serious at this point, not just a joke or a threat. Yeah.

Dani 15:42

He said the rope remained tight for several minutes. He said he offered the men all of his money if they would kill him. Mercifully.

Stephanie 15:50

Oh, so he's of the, that's how serious this is. Like he's of the belief he's dying now, but at least if I'm gonna die, don't make it painful. Wow.

Dani 16:00

He said quote, I offered them all my money if they would kill me. Mercifully. But they wouldn't take my money.

Stephanie 16:11

Just putting myself in the, his shoes is, I just cannot even imagine.

Dani 16:17

Coney County Sheriff's deputies were dispatched to the wooded area'cause we got Broons.

Stephanie 16:22

Mm-hmm.

Dani 16:22

Right. Deputy J mm. Here I fucking go Cuomo.

Stephanie 16:35

That's, that's the closest I can imagine. Fucking

Dani 16:38

nailed it.

Stephanie 16:39

Yep. We're gonna, we're gonna count that as a win.

Dani 16:42

Arrived and found Keith with a rope looped around his neck and strung over the fucking tree branch.

Stephanie 16:46

Imagine that as a cop. Like, Hey, hey, hey, hey. Wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, what are you guys doing out here? Like what am I, that's a weird call.

Dani 16:59

It's

Stephanie 17:00

a weird call. Not what you would expect, right? I don't think, I don't think many cops would be expecting that

Dani 17:07

Kaminski reported that Keith appeared to be on his tiptoes.

Stephanie 17:12

Yeah, so the grasp gasping for air and stuff sounds like was probably accurate to what was happening.

Dani 17:19

deputies removed the rope and took Keith into custody. He was transported for medical treatment and for treated for cuts, bruises, and a sore throat, because remember, he had fell. Yeah, a couple times. Keith said Deputies arrived just in time.

Stephanie 17:37

Sounds like it. Yeah. If you're begging for someone to not, you're not begging for someone to not kill you, you're so convinced that you're gonna be killed, that you're asking them to do it. What? Nicely,

Dani 17:46

quickly, please.

Stephanie 17:47

Yeah. Wow.

Dani 17:50

Both men were arrested and booked into the Ki County Jail, so. McDonald's and Sancha, the deputies,

Stephanie 17:58

they're like, you can't do that

Dani 18:00

bro.

Stephanie 18:01

Sorry, bud. Can't do that. Got gotta take you in.

Dani 18:04

They were, they were charged with attempted homicide.

Stephanie 18:08

I mean,'cause what else is it on the tippy toes? This isn't just like threatening or trying to like. I'm not saying that it's right, but I could imagine, you know, someone trying to make someone feel like their life's in danger just to get answers out of them. Mm-hmm. But it seems like they had their mind made up.

Dani 18:26

and poor Keith really thought their mind was made

Stephanie 18:28

up. He sure did. He, uh,

Dani 18:30

yeah.

Stephanie 18:31

Whoa.

Dani 18:33

Within days, Coney County Prosecutor Glen Walker, reviewed the case and reduced the charges to aggravated battery.

Stephanie 18:42

Prosecutors gotta try to decide what they can

Dani 18:45

A preliminary hearing was scheduled before for Ci Magistrate Craig, God Cosin. Okay. Co kosin.

Stephanie 18:57

Coonan

Dani 18:58

Coonan. I like that Better. Ring to it. It does. Keith returned to his parents' home in Harrison after receiving medical care and the case proceeded towards his first court hearing. The preliminary hearing in the case was held later in April, 1984. Roger McDonald and Joseph Sanchez appeared with their attorneys, Eugene Murano and John Luster. prosecutors presented evidence related to the April 7th incident, including testimony about Keith being detained in a wooded area with a rope placed around his neck.

Stephanie 19:32

Yeah, yeah. Pretty good. facts here, here. Can we talk

Dani 19:35

about this, please?

Stephanie 19:36

I love that the attorney's name is Luster.

Dani 19:39

Yeah.

Stephanie 19:40

Is he a child molester? Take him in. Take him to the woods, immediately

Dani 19:44

get the rope.

Stephanie 19:46

Oh my God.

Dani 19:48

During the hearing, McDonald testified that he and Sanchez had detained Keith because they believed he posed a danger to children. He said they intended to hold him until Sheriff's deputies arrived and did not intend to harm him.

Stephanie 20:02

We were just holding him with the rope around his neck so he couldn't get away. Ever put a dog on a leash? Is that illegal now? Am, am I? Am I lynching my dog? I, this is just, I'm making, I know I'm being facetious and making fun of how stupid we were just restraining him by the neck over with the rope, over a tree. Like, is that not how you restrained people? Oh my God.

Dani 20:31

Kaan ruled that the defendants had been justified under the circumstances and that the evidence did not establish that Keith had a well-founded fear required to support an aggravated assault charge. What? He dismissed the case.

Stephanie 20:48

So you can just snatch up anyone off the street because you feel like they look like a child molester, put a noose around their neck and hang, like, tighten it so that they're, they think that they're dying.

Dani 21:01

Kill me. Merciful, mercifully.

Stephanie 21:03

Like, this is noose to me. That, that that's okay to do that. I, I thought this was America.

Dani 21:10

No, but like seriously what? The fuck Prosecutor Glenn Walker said he disagreed without ruling and intended to refile the charges. Key's. Parents expressed anger and disbelief. They were pissed. Monica Gilmore said the men had accused her son of not only being a child molester based on a fricking note

Stephanie 21:37

that does not say anything about children at all.

Dani 21:42

and James Gilmore said he could not understand how the court had reached his decision.

Stephanie 21:46

Like, we don't know what the hell's going on over here.

Dani 21:48

Same. Same. James? Same. Same.

Stephanie 21:50

Yeah.

Dani 21:54

Walker refiled, aggravated assault charges with him weeks and a second. Preliminary hearing was scheduled again before

Stephanie 22:03

ka.

Dani 22:03

Thank you.

Stephanie 22:04

And it goes to the same judge?

Dani 22:06

Yeah. Wow. Before that hearing could take place, Keith failed to appear in court.

Stephanie 22:14

Hmm.

Dani 22:16

He's their, he's their main guy

Stephanie 22:18

and you gotta be there.

Dani 22:20

Keith left his parents' home in Harrison without notice. His parents reported him missing. James told authorities that Keith sometimes hallucinated and heard voices and that he feared his son might be dead or seriously ill. Law enforcement agencies issued bulletins. To the surrounding states looking for case,

Stephanie 22:38

right? and the court proceedings

Dani 22:41

were postponed.

Stephanie 22:42

Hmm.

Dani 22:44

After charges were, we filed, Keith left North Idaho and traveled back to California where his home is.

Stephanie 22:51

Mm-hmm.

Dani 22:53

When Keith didn't show up at the airport in California, his friends called Keith's parents,

Stephanie 22:58

where's our friend?

Dani 22:59

His parents reported him missing. law enforcement agencies issues bulletins to the surrounding states. Keith was located and his father said, Keith boarded a flight here in Idaho, but missed a connecting plane after losing his airline ticket, unable to continue the trip. Keith just rented a motel room and remained out of contact for a period of time.

Stephanie 23:25

And this is before cell phone, so you're just

Dani 23:27

Yeah.

Stephanie 23:27

Out

Dani 23:28

there doing

Stephanie 23:28

your thing.

Dani 23:29

And he, and he like, there's some mental illness. Yeah. He is like, and he was just tired.

Stephanie 23:36

He was like, all right,

Dani 23:37

I, I can't find my ticket. I'm tired. I'm just gonna go get a a room. Court proceedings were postponed while authorities and family members attempted to locate him, and more hearings were rescheduled. So this, like, we can't find our main guy. when the second preliminary hearing was eventually held, kosin again ruled that the defendants had gone too far, but had not committed a criminal act.

Stephanie 24:04

You've gotta be shitting me.

Dani 24:06

He said Keith's fear was not well founded under Idaho law and dismiss the charges a second time.

Stephanie 24:14

I want him to write a dissertation about this so I can understand. How begging someone to kill you, mercifully, It's not even in your mind that you will live. You know you're gonna die and so you're asking for them to please kill you in a kind way. What? That's not a founded fear.

Dani 24:35

He said the defendants could not be guilty of attempting to hang Keith because they had summoned law enforcement.

Stephanie 24:44

No. One of them summoned law enforcement. The other two were,

Dani 24:48

had a rope around his neck, over a tree branch.

Stephanie 24:50

They were getting on down.

Dani 24:52

He again, suggested that Keith could pursue civil remedies.

Stephanie 24:56

Oh my God. Which we know is not easy or cheap.

Dani 25:01

Keith's parents, again, criticized the ruling.

Stephanie 25:04

Yeah.

Dani 25:05

Monica said the court had accepted the defendant's version of events. James said he believed the judge had made a mistake.

Stephanie 25:12

Do they know him or something? I know this is a smaller, it feels like a good, this is feeling like a good old boy vibe or something.

Dani 25:18

It kind of does A little Murdoch ish.

Stephanie 25:20

Mm-hmm.

Dani 25:23

Walker said he would again, study the transcripts and consider further action, like he's trying to get these guys prosecuted. Yeah. He refiled aggravated assault charges for a third time and saw a different magistrate.

Stephanie 25:37

Nice.

Dani 25:38

So remember kids, the difference between a judge and a magistrate

Stephanie 25:43

refresh us.

Dani 25:44

the magistrate usually is making very smaller decisions. You don't even have to, I don't even think you have to have a law degree to be a magistrate.

Stephanie 25:55

Mm-hmm.

Dani 25:56

So I feel like on this level and judges like, do the really important stuff, but if it is, I feel like this is an important part of this. I don't know why it's. In front of a magistrate. Anyway,

Stephanie 26:09

this has all been very confusing so far of, because if you're saying to someone that it's not a crime, so you're telling me anyone can just go snatch someone off the street and do this as long

Dani 26:21

as you're gonna go call the cops after you do it. That's what they're saying.

Stephanie 26:26

Why didn't they just drive him to the police department if they really felt that way? Because, no, yeah, the one guy went to get them, but then the rest escalated

Dani 26:35

with a gun and a rope and a tree.

Stephanie 26:39

No. you're telling people that this is okay to do.

Dani 26:43

As the case continued on, Keith resurfaced briefly in North Idaho. Shortly afterward, he left again. He traveled to Washington State, spending his time in Seattle and Yakima. While in Yakima, he was jailed for failing to pay for meals.

Stephanie 26:58

Oh, Keith.

Dani 26:59

After his release, he returned to North Idaho and ordered a meal at a Coeur d'Alene restaurant asking employees to call his parents so they could pay the bill.

Stephanie 27:09

Mm.

Dani 27:10

Detective Earl Winan said Keith was reunited with his family, so

Stephanie 27:16

mm-hmm. He needs a little help.

Dani 27:19

Guess who's back is back. And another hearing was scheduled before it could be held. Keith disappeared again,

Stephanie 27:29

Mr. Worldwide. He's just on his traveling around.

Dani 27:34

Keith had voluntarily admitted himself to Pine Crest Hospital for psychiatric treatment during an exercise period. He just walked away from the facility. He was later found hitchhiking along Interstate 90.

Stephanie 27:49

He's just a wanderer. Sounds like.

Dani 27:51

Oh, he was home within hours, but still.

Stephanie 27:53

Yeah.

Dani 27:54

He was like, I just wanna go for a walk. Thanks guys. Meanwhile, the case moved through a series of judicial reassignments. Mm. Magistrate Craig Coonan disqualified himself for the third time. Probably a good idea.

Stephanie 28:12

Yeah.'cause Buddy, and we talked about this, we had a little break, but judges don't like to hear that they're wrong. That's their literal job is to judge and judge correctly. And so even if more evidence was presented, I think most judges would be reluctant to be like, oh yeah, my bad. They're supposed to be the experts.

Dani 28:35

And I'm telling you, the prosecutor Walker, this is a small county.

Stephanie 28:40

He is working hard.

Dani 28:41

the kaons that he had to refile in front of that same magistrate, he was doing the damn thing. Mm-hmm. Because that can, I don't care what they

28:53

say,

Stephanie 28:53

that can affect your career

Dani 28:54

so much

Stephanie 28:55

for years.

Dani 28:56

And now he said, boom, here's a third fucking try.

Stephanie 29:00

And,'cause you know, a judge is

Dani 29:01

not, now, now that I'm thinking about it, I should have really just researched where his career went. but anyway, yeah.

Stephanie 29:08

Yeah.

Dani 29:09

I bet you there was some fireworks going on.

Stephanie 29:12

I

Dani 29:12

be professionally,

29:13

the

Stephanie 29:13

tea was hot in the, in the office. Yeah. Yeah.

Dani 29:18

The case was reassigned to magistrate John Ramstead, who was later disqualified at the request of a defense attorney Magistrate. A H para was assigned and later disqualified Magistrate Paul McCabe, newly appointed to the bench, was also disqualified.

Stephanie 29:37

Why is everyone being disqualified? That's why I wanted Do they?

Dani 29:39

I couldn't figure it out. I was

Stephanie 29:40

so pissed. There's gotta be like probably a personal something.

Dani 29:45

Yeah, that's usually, well it's a small county so it's probably gonna be

Stephanie 29:47

conflict of interest.

Dani 29:48

Worked with the defendants before. Worked for the defendants. Or who knows?

Stephanie 29:55

Some connection.

Dani 29:56

There's some connection there and I really, the papers not be giving me a thing I need. I know

Stephanie 30:02

we need an insider. This was so long ago though.

Dani 30:05

We need the money to get the insider. Mm-hmm. Doing the best I can. I was really, Curious, but it's a whole fucking thing. Wish I knew why. newspaper accounts describe the situation as a magistrate. Merry-go-round.

Stephanie 30:20

That's a catchy headline, but also true.

Dani 30:23

The case was eventually reassigned to magistrate Quentin Hardin, a Bonners Ferry.

Stephanie 30:29

Finally found one

Dani 30:32

as hearings were rescheduled before Harden. Keith left the area yet again.

Stephanie 30:37

He's just out doing his thing.

Dani 30:39

He traveled to Sheridan, Wyoming. Mr. Worldwide.

Stephanie 30:44

Yeah.

Dani 30:45

Where he telephoned his parents from a police department and asked for money. James Gilmore said he sent funds to his son so he could return home. Look, these poor parents.

Stephanie 30:57

Well, and he's, he's a fully formed adult, so you can't, you can't restrain him with a rope around his neck.

Dani 31:04

Can't walk him in his room. But still, they're just like, why? I mean. Just the soul crushing. Mm-hmm. And especially if they're not making good choices.

Stephanie 31:13

Right.

Dani 31:14

Or leaving without money.

Stephanie 31:15

Mm-hmm. You're like, Keith, we talked

Dani 31:18

about this. Yeah. The one time I couldn't pay for my meals, somebody took me to jail.

Stephanie 31:23

Keith, we talked about this.

Dani 31:27

By that point, prosecutors warned the court that the case could not continue indefinitely without the state's primary witness. Deputy Prosecutor Peter Lin said the next hearing would proceed whether Keith was there or not.

Stephanie 31:46

Okay.

Dani 31:46

They're like, if he's not here, I can't tell you how this is gonna go.

Stephanie 31:50

but we're moving on,

Dani 31:51

but we're moving on. And they said, really? They don't have a case unless they have Keith.

Stephanie 31:55

Yeah. He's gotta be there to participate.

Dani 31:58

But Keith rallied and he returned to Northern Idaho before the scheduled hearing.

Stephanie 32:03

Good job, Keith.

Dani 32:05

The second preliminary hearing was held before Harden in the late summer of 1984. Prosecutors again presented evidence related to the April 7th incident. Keith appeared and he testified this time, so now we got him in front of a judge. Good job, or, um, magistrate.

Stephanie 32:20

Magistrate.

Dani 32:22

He described being taken to East Point Road, led into the woods and having a rope placed around his neck. He testified that he believed he was going to die and that he offered the men his money if they would kill him mercifully,

Stephanie 32:36

which is wild.

Dani 32:40

McDonald testified that Keith's behavior near where the children were fishing and the note that had been found, caused concern, bro, you were not even there. You were drinking beers. At the local tavern.

Stephanie 32:54

Well, and even if you were there, finding the note there and what behavior, I don't hear anyone else being like, oh gosh, he was chasing kids around, or, you know. No. So you're just making a story up in your head and connecting dots that aren't, that don't connect.

Dani 33:09

They're not no dotting, um, McDonald testified that the intent was to detain Keith until deputies arrived.

Stephanie 33:19

Weird way to detain.

Dani 33:21

How about you just go, let the sheriff do the detective thing?

Stephanie 33:25

Yeah.

Dani 33:25

Edward.

Stephanie 33:26

Well, and when the police detain you, are they doing that?

Dani 33:31

No, they're not.

Stephanie 33:32

And it doesn't sound like they would've, he wasn't trying to get away. He was

Dani 33:37

mm-hmm.

Stephanie 33:37

Resigned to what he thought the outcome was gonna be, which was him dying. So I don't think there was any need to do that.

Dani 33:46

Joe Brownson testified that after being becoming concerned, he left some of the authorities and he returned to find Keith with a rope around his neck. He is like, well, I just feel like,

Stephanie 33:58

well, and for him to even be surprised, that means that what they were doing is wrong. Like they were all on this mission to get him. So they were on the same page at one point, and then he comes back and he is like, oh, whoa, not like that. Whoa, whoa.

Dani 34:10

Hey, not a good luck,

Stephanie 34:11

bro. No. When did we decide we were doing that? I wasn't part of this plan.

Dani 34:18

Deputy J. Oh my God. I'm just gonna leave it at Deputy J. Testified that he arrived at the scene and found Keith with a rope looped around his neck, strung over that tree branch. After hearing the testimony, hardened ruled that while the defendants did not intend to kill or seriously injured Keith placing a rope around a person's neck. Constituted an unlawful threat,

Stephanie 34:44

I feel like. Yes. That's like placing a gun directly onto someone's head. Point blank.

Dani 34:49

I just was waiting for

Stephanie 34:50

the cops. I wasn't trying to kill you. I

Dani 34:51

was just waiting for the cops to show up.

Stephanie 34:53

Yeah.

Dani 34:55

He said the presence of the rope created a well-founded fear of imminent violence. Yeah. He ordered McDonald and Sanchez bound over for trial and for sister court.

Stephanie 35:06

Okay, we're moving.

Dani 35:07

Here we go. We're getting somewhere. defense attorneys said they would file motions challenging the ruling. Of course. How did you even defend? I just,

Stephanie 35:17

it worked for them twice though. They're like, they probably thought that they were really great at their jobs. They're like, damn, we were able to get these guys case dismissed. You must be good lawyers. No, I don't think so.

Dani 35:31

No. I think the judge, the magistrate was off his rocker.

Stephanie 35:36

Something was going on there.

Dani 35:38

The prosecutor said the decision allowed the case to finally move forward. Like, let's go somewhere for the first time since April. The case advanced without being dismissed. Or being postponed.

Stephanie 35:49

Okay.

Dani 35:50

Keith was where he was supposed to be. We got a magistrate that's like, yeah, you can't do this.

Stephanie 35:56

Good.

Dani 35:56

We're somewhere. Okay. We're getting

Stephanie 35:57

where we need to go.

Dani 35:58

We're getting somewhere. As the aggravated assault case continued into the summer of 1984, court proceedings were repeatedly delayed because Keith failed to appear more for scheduled hearings.

Stephanie 36:09

I know, and like you said, how his parents were probably frustrated. It's not just that he is all over the country and you know, getting himself into predicaments. They're like, son, we've got this trial stuff. Hello? And he's like, I wanna go to Wyoming.

Dani 36:22

Yeah. I wanna go have lunch in Wyoming.

Stephanie 36:24

Thank

Dani 36:24

you.

Stephanie 36:24

Yeah. I'll call you when I need some cash.

Dani 36:30

Prosecutors and defense attorneys agreed to continuances while authorities attempted to locate Keith.

Stephanie 36:36

Okay.

Dani 36:37

So at least it's not completely thrown out. But Keith, we need to be working this. Come bud on this. Come on. This is fucking, we gotta get these guys. Okay. Can't do it without your help.

Stephanie 36:47

He's like, ah, I'm kinda over it if I, well, I mean, he's like, I didn't die. I'm feeling great.

Dani 36:54

But did you die?

Stephanie 36:55

Yeah. No. He's like, I thought I was a goner and I'm wanting to live my life. I'm gonna go have lunch in Yakima.

Dani 37:01

Thank you. There's this great diner I heard about.

Stephanie 37:05

Yeah. Mom, can I have some money? I found a note. Oh my God. Sorry.

Dani 37:12

law enforcement agencies issued bulletins to surrounding states. Again, asking for assistance.'cause for

Stephanie 37:20

they know someone's gonna encounter Keith.

Dani 37:22

Yeah. But for those of you that don't know, the very tip of Idaho is very thin. So we're talking, you can get to another state in pretty short order.

Stephanie 37:29

Mm-hmm.

Dani 37:31

Uh,

Stephanie 37:32

yeah. Just a quick jig jog.

Dani 37:33

Yeah. I mean, Coeur d'Alene, he could

Stephanie 37:34

be in Canada.

Dani 37:36

And it's also very close to Canada. What is it, like a 20 minute drive from Spokane to

Stephanie 37:40

Yeah.

Dani 37:41

Yeah. Quarter late or something like that. You just, boop

Stephanie 37:42

boop,

Dani 37:43

boop boop. So it's right there. And then you can go, so that's Washington. You can go really quick the other way. Go over to Wyoming. Mm-hmm. Go have some lunch there. Little day trip.

Stephanie 37:52

Tri-state day.

Dani 37:53

Yeah.

Stephanie 37:54

It's easily doable.

Dani 37:55

and yeah, jet up to Canada in a few hours. So

Stephanie 37:59

let's

Dani 37:59

go,

Stephanie 37:59

let's, let's take this international.

Dani 38:00

So that's why they're like, Hey, yo, neighbors, Washington, Wyoming, yo, Canada. if you see this guy walking around and it's unable to pay for his meals, that's our guy.

Stephanie 38:11

Yeah. Just go ahead and let us

Dani 38:12

know. That's our guy. as Keith continued to move between his parents' home, hospitals and wherever he frankly wanted to fucking go, prosecutors warned that further delays could not continue indefinitely. Like this has to stop us

Stephanie 38:28

some point. Yeah. The defense is gonna eventually be like,

Dani 38:29

go fuck his

Stephanie 38:30

up. We don't have to, you know, compromise about this much longer.

Dani 38:36

And Deputy prosecutor Peter Erlin, told the court that again, they're gonna proceed with or without Keith's testimony.

Stephanie 38:44

They're trying their best

Dani 38:47

and they're, they said whether he's here or not, we're going.

Stephanie 38:51

Mm-hmm.

Dani 38:53

So here we are. Keith appeared and testified.

Stephanie 38:59

Got him back. There we go. Keith.

Dani 39:02

He described being picked up along the road, taken to the wooden area, let off the road. He testified about the roping placed over his neck, over the tree branch,

Stephanie 39:13

so traumatic

Dani 39:14

and he thought he was gonna die. And he also, again testified about giving him the money.

Stephanie 39:21

Yeah.

Dani 39:22

Please just make it quick. I thought

Stephanie 39:29

I, and let me just tell you, if I, for some misguided reason, decided to snatch someone up like this. And then I was not intending to kill them. And they start saying, please take my wallet, but just shoot me quickly. I don't wanna be hung. Just shoot me. Instead, I'd be like, well hey, no, I wasn't gonna do that. Hey buddy, calm down. We're not gonna kill you. We just wanna, we don't want we, we just gotta hold you here for the cops. Just settle down. Wouldn't you like, okay. No, we we're on the wrong page here. I'm not killing you, man. But I don't think that that happened. So their whole, we just intended to restrain him. Yeah. If someone is praying to God their last words and be for me to kill them nicely, something got lost in communication here.

Dani 40:15

Yeah. He has a well-founded fear. Thank you. Yeah. Well-founded Jesus. Deputy Jay testified, but he arrived at the scene, so this is a big deal that he's saw the rope around the neck, over the tree branch. And he and that Keith appeared to be on his tiptoes.

Stephanie 40:36

Mm-hmm.

Dani 40:36

You know what the defense did? Was he really on his tiptoes or was he on No, listen. Deputy J also testified that the ground in that area was sloped. So walking upon it, you could maybe assume that he was on his tiptoes.

Stephanie 40:54

I hate when they do this splitting hair shit like, couldn't you, maybe hypothetically, and it's like, well, anyone could maybe hypothetically anything, but if he's a police officer, I feel like, you know, he knows how to be a witness. He should anyway, and oh my gosh.

Dani 41:14

The defense attorneys argued that the men had acted as concerned citizens and had summoned law enforcement. They argued that the evidence did not support an intent to harm,

Stephanie 41:27

and this has worked for them. This is why they're doing it again.

Dani 41:29

And that key fear was not well-founded under the law. Okay. We've esto stuff. Were right, they're wrong. Yeah. We've established this. Prosecutors argued that intent to harm was not required under the aggravated assault statute, and that the conduct itself created a reasonable fear of violence.

Stephanie 41:49

You think, gosh, it's so this, this is just so disappointing that this even had to happen in a court of law to be like, I feel like the Cardi B meme. Like, look, how, how do you, how do you know she's bigger than you? And she's like, I mean, look, I mean, look

Dani 42:07

like this is a

Stephanie 42:08

stupid, I'm using my eyeballs.

Dani 42:10

This is a stupid question.

Stephanie 42:11

Yes, man. Cardi B needed to be, in this case,

Dani 42:15

she would've fucking,

Stephanie 42:16

she'd have been like, are, are we serious?

Dani 42:19

Oh, that'd be a great testimony.

Stephanie 42:20

Oh yeah.

Dani 42:33

After hearing testimony, harden issued his ruling from the bench. He said the evidence showed that McDonald and Sanchez. Did not intend to kill or seriously injure Keith, and that they intended to detain him until deputies arrived.

Stephanie 42:49

I'm sick of this shit. I, I, I am Are we in the fucking twilight zone?

Dani 42:55

He said the evidence showed that deputies had been summoned and that Keith had been given a jacket when he became cold.

Stephanie 43:06

So you can string someone up, just make sure you give him a jacket and it's not illegal. Wow. This is big news for all my enemies and exes because I'm just gonna be, I guess I can just do the, the deeply seated things that I know are wrong and it's fine. It's, we've, we have a precedent set three times now. Three times precedent. But did you die is essentially. This is big news. Watch out everyone.

Dani 43:38

Hardin also ruled that placing a rope around a person's neck constituted an unlawful threat. We're getting somewhere. We're getting

Stephanie 43:47

somewhere. A crumb, a crumb we've received.

Dani 43:50

He said The presence of the rope around the neck created a well-founded fear in any reasonable person. That violence was imminent.

Stephanie 43:57

Thank you. Wow. I can't believe that we're begging and having to applaud this tiny crumb of accountability.

Dani 44:04

He ruled that it was more likely than not that aggravated assault had been committed as charged.

Stephanie 44:11

Alright. All right. So I thought he was saying that No, there wasn't.

Dani 44:17

No, he, he was saying, that the evidence showed that they didn't intend to kill or seriously in Keith, they intended to detain him.

Stephanie 44:27

So even though they can, they're saying that's their intent that. Sure. Maybe your intent wasn't that, but this is this episode brought to you by Garage Door and little White dog So taking all this in, it sounds like he recognized that maybe, sure, maybe your intent wasn't to harm or kill him, but when you put a rope over someone's neck, it's unlawful. It doesn't really matter if that's your intent, which is a good point.'cause you know, they say, you know, my intent wasn't to hurt your feelings. That's great. I'm glad that it wasn't your intent, but you still did hurt someone's feelings. Yeah. The outcome was still that. So I feel like, okay, now I get what he's saying and thank you for. Acknowledging that you cannot be doing that.

Dani 45:19

So Harden Magistrate. Harden ordered McDonald Sanchez bound over for trial.

Stephanie 45:25

Okay.

Dani 45:25

He's all been preliminary hearings. We've had Keith missing. Coming, going, coming. Hearing, hearing. Judge. Judge. Oh wait. Magistrate, magistrate. Magistrate.

Stephanie 45:34

Right. I know.

Dani 45:35

So it's been that show, but we're now getting,

Stephanie 45:38

we're getting there to

Dani 45:39

the trial. But following that ruling defense attorney Eugene Murano said he would file motions challenging the court's interpretations of intent. Jesus Christ, give it up.

Stephanie 45:50

I cannot believe this, but I mean, they've been rewarded for their efforts that I think are shitty in the first place. So why wouldn't you?

Dani 46:00

Prosecutors said that ruling supported the state's position. They're like, we're getting somewhere. Let's go to trial. Mm-hmm. Both defendants were scheduled for arraignment. Joseph Sanchez entered a plea of not guilty to the aggravated assault charge, and Roger McDonald later entered his not guilty plea. And, judge Richard Magnuson, I think I got that right. Consolidated. The cases names are so hard for me. I like because

Stephanie 46:28

you never know and you want it to be accurate, but sometimes there's not a lot to go on.

Dani 46:35

So the trial starts in late February of 1985. Before Judge, we got judges now. Richard Magnuson jury selection took several days with perspective jurors question about their exposure to the publicity surrounding the case and their views on mental illness and citizens arrest. And this is in the eighties when a mental illness was not recognized, like,

Stephanie 47:00

and that people viewed it almost as a character defect.

Dani 47:02

Yeah.

Stephanie 47:03

Like

Dani 47:03

you're a bad person. Person. A lot different in the eighties.

Stephanie 47:05

Oh yeah.

Dani 47:05

Than it's now. Nobody. Yeah. Yeah. It was bad, before the testimony began. a jury of seven women and five men were finally selected before testimony began. Defense attorneys again challenged Keith's credibility and requested that he undergo psychiatric evaluation

Stephanie 47:29

to say how he felt. I think anyone is pretty capable of that.

Dani 47:35

Eugene Murano argued that Keith's diagnosis of schizophrenia raised questions about his ability to distinguish reality from fantasy. I hate this.

Stephanie 47:45

Mm-hmm.

Dani 47:45

Prosecutors oppose the request. Magnusson denied the motion ruling that there was nothing in the record to suggest Keith was unable to perceive events or relate them in court. He is like, no.

Stephanie 47:57

Yeah.

Dani 47:58

Even though he, he might be mentally ill, he still. That what

Stephanie 48:03

he done and his story hasn't changed? No. He's had to do it a few times and probably this is just the times in court,

Dani 48:09

right.

Stephanie 48:10

Talking with the prosecutor, talking with, you know, the first anyone knows if you have something happen to you, no matter what it is that you might need to press charges, you have to tell your story at least five to 10 times just on that initial day. You have to tell this person, they're gonna ask you again alone

Dani 48:27

courts.

Stephanie 48:28

Mm-hmm. And,

Dani 48:29

yeah.

Stephanie 48:29

Yeah. Wild

Dani 48:31

in opening statements, chief Deputy prosecutor Peter Lin told that the case was not about case mental illness. It's not.

Stephanie 48:39

Mm-hmm. Or

Dani 48:40

the note. It's not

Stephanie 48:42

because it's not, you cannot justify this shit with a, with a note. Who knows who wrote the note. Were they able, ever able to even prove that he wrote it? I guess I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm sure they would've said it if they were able to like handwriting analysis, proof.

Dani 49:00

Oh, there was no handwriting analysis.

Stephanie 49:02

So you don't even know who the hell left that note. It's like finding a fucking gum wrapper on the ground and being like, I know that Danny is a litter bug. Let's go find her and string her up. This had to have come from Danny, like, what the fuck is this shit?

Dani 49:19

So it's not about his mental illness or the note. Mm-hmm. But it's about what actually occurred in the woods on East Point Road. Yes, it is. He said the evidence would show that Keith had been held at gunpoint and he had a rope raised upon, placed around his neck, creating a well-founded fear of eminent violence. Yes.

Stephanie 49:38

I think that is a very realistic thing to think if that was to happen to anyone

Dani 49:44

urban until a jury. There was a crime committed here, but it wasn't by Keith Gilmore.

Stephanie 49:49

Uh, yeah.

Dani 49:51

Keith stood in the woods of North Idaho with a robe around his neck and a man holding a gun on him, and he was in fear. But,

Stephanie 49:59

but hang on, Danny. They gave him a jacket though, so that erases it's, it cancels out PDOs. Fuck.

Dani 50:08

Defense attorney John Luster argued that fear existed on all sides. Dude, you were in a bar. Okay?

Stephanie 50:14

You are going after someone. If you're afraid of someone, you're not going to approach them yourself. That's when you might follow them from a distance. If I'm scared of someone, I'm not telling them to get in my truck.

Dani 50:28

Thank

Stephanie 50:29

you. I'm getting pissed. Danny, what I told, told you I'm, this is just, it feels so weird. This is one of those times where it feels like, am I drinking crazy juice? Are we talking about the same fucking thing here? I don't know. I, I could not be a lawyer in this case.'cause I'd be like, judge, excuse me. Pardon the fuck. Objection. The fuck. That's, that's my grounds for my objection. The fuck. I'm so

Dani 50:54

pleased with myself picking the story for you right now. Step

Stephanie 50:56

Danny does. She really is great at picking stories, but yeah, I would, as a lawyer trying to be professional, I don't know how the Cardi B and Me wouldn't be coming out and be like, hello, fuck this. We are in the Twilight Zone.

Dani 51:14

He said defendants had some in law enforcement and that Keith was never in danger of being harmed.

Stephanie 51:21

I feel safest when a rope is around my neck and a gun is pointed at me. I feel double safe.

Dani 51:26

Super

Stephanie 51:26

safe. I know the people that are holding me are armed and will keep other random people from hurting me'cause they have me restrained and to protect me with my jacket. Fuck.

Dani 51:36

He said The tree branch could not support a person's way and that deputies were already on the way.

Stephanie 51:42

I don't think that matters in the moment, but anyway, I'm gonna spiral more so you just gotta keep going.

Dani 51:47

So he testified how he'd been walking along the road when he was picked up, taken to East Point Road and led into the woods, and he testified how the rope was placed around his neck and drawn tight. And he testified he believed he was going to die.

Stephanie 52:05

Yeah.

Dani 52:07

Joe Bronson testified again. He said that he had seen Keith walking along the road where near where children were fishing and had found that note after, after Keith had passed through. Must be Keith. It it was Keith. Because listen,

Stephanie 52:22

I feel like these guys must have been on a little meth or something too. This is just so paranoid to be like, I found a note. There was a man walking. Must have been his, he must be a chow. Like the jumping to conclusions. We are sprinting to these conclusions, like and jumping on a pogo. Stick to them. What the fuck?

Dani 52:39

Under cross-examination though, he acknowledged that Keith had not made. Any physical or verbal threats to anybody?

Stephanie 52:47

Yeah. Almost as if he's not out there hurting people.

Dani 52:51

We got, the ladies are gonna testify now. Are you ready

Stephanie 52:55

for this? Okay. I am, I am.

Dani 52:57

Linda Brownson testified that Keith appearance frightened her. She testified that he was not wearing a shirt in cold weather and appeared unkempt. Patricia McDonald testified that Keith's appearance frightened her as well.

Stephanie 53:12

And this is their wives or something? Yes, of course they're gonna say this.

Dani 53:15

No. Look, the look on his face scared me. She testified there was a craze, looked about him like I couldn't trust what his next move would be,

Stephanie 53:26

but he never got a chance to make any move. So what? Who, fuck, who gives a fuck? And if you're that scared, you and your husbands go the fuck away from him. Oh my God.

Dani 53:42

So McDonald said that placing a rope around Keith's neck reflected poor judgment.

Stephanie 53:51

You think

Dani 53:52

he testified that Keith acted strangely during the ride and gave inconsistent answers about where he was going. He said, well, I had never seen anybody like him. He testified, he described Keith as a wild looking man, sir, is because you live in northern Idaho in 1984.

Stephanie 54:09

Y'all are so paranoid. Like this is just incredible. And, and I just have to touch on this as well, the whole, we wanted to restrain anything that you watch a movie, a cop episode, you know, just seeing how police restrain people or someone retrain someone who is a threat, a rope around the neck. I don't know that I've ever seen that be the primary and first line of tying his hands and feet. Maybe I could even understand that of you're not going anywhere. You're waiting here until the police get here. Why in the fuck you went to noose? And I don't know if it was an actual noose. Not really

Dani 54:49

matter. Lemme just touch on that.

Stephanie 54:51

Okay.

Dani 54:51

It was not an actual noose. It was something more like, um, a roping rope.

Stephanie 54:57

Sure. Okay.

Dani 54:58

So it had like a slipknot in it'cause Yeah. No, these guys weren't driving around with a, not that it makes any difference, but they weren't driving around with a literal noose in their truck. He had a rope. It was probably a towing rope is actually, probably what it was. Right.

Stephanie 55:11

Well, and in the moment though, I don't think it would matter to me if I was Keith, if it was an actual noose. Not Or not. Oh,

Dani 55:17

no, no.

Stephanie 55:17

Because like they're gonna find a way to kill me. Yeah. Oh, this is so crazy.

Dani 55:24

The defense called Roy, Dr. Roy Elem, a clinical psychologist who testified about schizophrenia. He testified that people with long-term schizophrenia could suffer from distorted thinking and perceptions and would truly never be normal. Under cross-examination, the doctor acknowledged that a person with schizophrenia could still perceive fearful situations.

Stephanie 55:49

Yeah.

Dani 55:49

Just'cause they're mentally ill doesn't mean they don't feel fear

Stephanie 55:53

or don't recognize it. Yeah.

Dani 55:56

Listen to this judge. Judge Magnuson questioned the doctor and made it very clear and established that this doctor had not examined. Keith.

Stephanie 56:10

Is, is that even normal for a judge to be doing that?

Dani 56:14

I don't know, but

Stephanie 56:14

because isn't it like the prosecution's or defense's job to Yeah. Point that out.

Dani 56:19

I think he was trying to avoid another, like a mistrial or something,

Stephanie 56:22

maybe

Dani 56:24

right or so? No, normally they're not. I don't,

Stephanie 56:28

okay. Yeah, you don't usually hear that.

Dani 56:31

In closing arguments, Moreno urged jurors to consider the defendant's intent and their belief that they were protecting children. Don't give a fuck. you can believe that. You know, you're protecting a little weird creature that doesn't exist. You still cannot go and detain somebody.

Stephanie 56:51

No. And when there isn't even any proof of what he was doing, like, I can't just go hit someone with my car because I think they're gonna touch kids later. I can't do that. Now, it might be different. A judge, a judge or a jury might see it differently. If maybe I had all this proof and saw some him, someone going after a kid and decided I'm gonna hit him with my car, hit him with your car. Remember that song? I loved that. but yeah, this is just, it's crazy that we have to say this. Type of stuff.

Dani 57:24

the defense attorney also told jurors that a conviction would brand McDonald and Sanchez as felons for actions they believed were justified.

Stephanie 57:32

Does it matter if you believe something's justified? You? Oh my God. Like, why do we have to say this shit?

Dani 57:42

Erlin argued that the defendants had acted as self-appointed judges.

Stephanie 57:46

Mm-hmm.

Dani 57:47

And that the law did not permit citizens to place a rope around another person's neck. He said an acquittal would send a message that such conduct was acceptable.

Stephanie 57:58

Exactly. Thank you. Thank you.

Dani 58:01

after receiving the case late in the afternoon, the jury deliberated for approximately four hours.

Stephanie 58:07

They put some thought into it.

Dani 58:09

I, we've seen murder cases with Lus.

Stephanie 58:11

Mm-hmm. Yeah. No. So I'm glad that they did because clearly the defense's strategy has worked several times. So they're weighing it all out. Okay.

Dani 58:20

At 8:40 PM the jurors returned ver verdicts finding McDonald and Sanchez guilty of aggravated assault. Sentencing was scheduled for April 25th,

Stephanie 58:31

so we're almost at the year mark, right?

Dani 58:33

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Roger McDonald. So we're at the sentencing hearing. Roger McDonald, them 45 and Joseph Sanchez. Then 33 returned to court following their convictions for the aggravated assault. A pre-sentence investigation had been completed and reviewed by the court. Magnuson sentenced both men to three years in the Idaho state penitentiary, but suspended the prison terms.

Stephanie 59:09

So at first I was like three years. That's really little, but I mean we've seen second degree murder get basically five years in like other states and other circumstances. So I'm like, okay, three years can still teach him a lesson, but suspending the sentences.

Dani 59:24

Yeah. He placed each man on three years probation and order them to complete a hundred hours of community service.

Stephanie 59:30

If you get three years, you're probably gonna be out in a year and a half or less on good behavior.

Dani 59:36

But they're not even gonna go to jail stuff.

Stephanie 59:37

I know, but like why wouldn't you not suspend the sentence? Give them the three years. If they're good, they'll be out in maybe a year.

Dani 59:45

Yeah.

Stephanie 59:46

No jail time for this again. Again. Terrible news for my enemies. Even if you're guilty still, I can do some community service.

Dani 59:56

I could do three years

Stephanie 59:57

of I could do probation. Absolutely. I could. I.

Dani 1:00:03

Before imposing the sentence, Magnusson said the defendants had jumped to conclusions and acted illegally, but were not attempting to carry out vigilante justice.

Stephanie 1:00:14

I don't know what else you call that behavior.

Dani 1:00:18

He said the evidence supported the conclusion that the men intended to detain Keith until deputies arrived. I don't think they're, look, this is not a matter. I don't think they're really gonna kill Keith. I do think they were trying to detain him. They had no reason to detain him, and you surely cannot point a gun at somebody and put a rope around their neck to detain somebody.

Stephanie 1:00:38

And I think they were trying to scare him into saying something. Mm-hmm. Because they thought they were interrogating him. They thought that they were going to get him to admit to something and that they were trying to like, almost like torture in an interrogation. Sure. Maybe I can believe that they did. They weren't going to kill a man that day, but restraining someone. No one restrained someone like that.

Dani 1:01:01

Keith didn't know he wasn't gonna die that day.

Stephanie 1:01:03

No.

Dani 1:01:07

So the judge said the rope and the manner in which it was used represents something in the nature of a very ugly symbol.

Stephanie 1:01:14

Yep.

Dani 1:01:14

The fact of a rope being around a man's neck made it difficult to keep this case in perspective.

Stephanie 1:01:21

Okay. Sure.

Dani 1:01:22

He still let him off. To me, that's letting him off.

Stephanie 1:01:25

Yeah.

Dani 1:01:26

Magnuson said media coverage had contributed to the public characterization of the incident as an attempted lynching. He said that if the defendants had intended to lynch or punish Keith, it would've been accomplished before law enforcement arrived. Yes. But you cannot just go snatching people on the fucking streets.

Stephanie 1:01:44

Well, why didn't you just tie him to a tree if that's because they had a gun anyway, they didn't need to do any of this anyway. But tie him to the tree.

Dani 1:01:52

Sure. Why don't you just put the ropes around us? Actually, how about you just go back to the bar and keep drinking your beers?

Stephanie 1:01:58

Yeah. And talking about, well, if I saw someone hurt a kid, why? I oughta, instead of actually getting all, I cannot believe that these guys together were like, we're gonna do this. It's like, it's just pathetic.

Dani 1:02:13

How many pictures were they in? I'm just gonna say defense attorney John Lester criticized the Kune County Prosecutor's Office and Sheriff's Department for handling of this case.

Stephanie 1:02:25

The, the judge did?

Dani 1:02:26

No, the defense attorney.

Stephanie 1:02:27

Oh, okay.

Dani 1:02:28

He's like, this was, you guys did a horrible job. Shut up. He said rural residents should not have to wait extended periods for deputies to arrive,

Stephanie 1:02:38

then take him to the police station.

Dani 1:02:40

And he said the delay had contributed to the situation.

Stephanie 1:02:44

Oh, now it's

Dani 1:02:44

the police's fault. He also criticized the initial law enforcement report that characterized the incident as an attempted homicide saying it placed the case on the wrong track from the beginning.

Stephanie 1:02:55

Oh, shut the fuck up.

Dani 1:02:59

He, they literally put a rope over. Not just, you don't, they probably could have just been in, I'm not saying this is okay. They could have put a rope around his neck and just held him.

Stephanie 1:03:09

Yeah. Like, you're not going anywhere,

Dani 1:03:10

anybody.

Stephanie 1:03:11

You don't have to throw

Dani 1:03:11

it over a tree branch.

Stephanie 1:03:12

Yeah. And then'cause Yeah, no, I can, I can even, it's crazy that I can even be okay with that. But this was literally the worst fucking idea.

Dani 1:03:22

So Sanchez said him, that, of himself McDonald. There were just two concerned citizens that got tangled up with the law they don't even understand. And with the press,

Stephanie 1:03:35

wah, wah, wah. Shut the fuck up.

Dani 1:03:39

Again, defense attorneys Eugene Murano was holding the newspaper clippings and said this case would not have progressed as far as it did without media coverage designed to sell newspapers or turn the flavor of the community against these people.

Stephanie 1:03:53

I don't think it would've gotten as much attention if the first judge would've just been like, yeah, you can't be snatching people up.'cause now of course people are gonna be talking about it like, so someone can come snatch me Yeah. And do that to me.

Dani 1:04:06

Yeah. Uh, he also said the pre-sentence investigation showed Keith had not suffered long-term effects from the incident. Really? Do you know that? I mean, it's only been a year.

Stephanie 1:04:18

Well, and how can you

Dani 1:04:19

mm-hmm.

Stephanie 1:04:20

You're not a, a psychiatrist or,

Dani 1:04:25

and Keith might not even realize, look, you can have a traumatic event and not even have it. Come up and boil up until,

Stephanie 1:04:33

until you're triggered by something.

Dani 1:04:35

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:04:35

Imagine the next time someone just walks up to him on the street and asks him a question, Hey, where are you going? Oh, shit, am I in trouble?

Dani 1:04:42

Right. So shut, that doesn't even count. It's been, it's been less than than a year. How can

Stephanie 1:04:45

you say that as a fact? Yeah. Shut up.

Dani 1:04:50

Prosecuting attorney, Bob Burton responded that the defense attorneys were attempting to place blame on everyone except their clients. Clients. Exactly.

Stephanie 1:04:57

It's the cop's fault,

Dani 1:04:59

excuses fault.

Stephanie 1:05:00

Okay.

Dani 1:05:00

He shouldn't have even been walking on a road.

Stephanie 1:05:03

Well, and if the cops would've got there to this remote location that they purposely drove him to, none of this would've happened. Again, I know that you guys are saying this too, so I hope I'm not repeating it too much, but this is just absolute insanity.

Dani 1:05:21

The prosecutor also said, no attention has been drawn to the defendants in this case who are really at fault. Burton said Keith had been frightened by the gun, trained on him and by the rope placed around his neck,

Stephanie 1:05:33

but they that the jacket should have canceled that out. Sure.

Dani 1:05:36

He said quote, they would have you believe. There's nothing wrong with that. He said, but society certainly believes that it is wrong because it is.

Stephanie 1:05:45

Yeah. No one wants to get snatched up.

Dani 1:05:48

This was vigilante justice in the sense that people think that they can take the law into their own hands. Burton said it may have been tolerated in 1885.

Stephanie 1:05:57

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:05:57

But certainly it cannot be tolerated in 1985,

Stephanie 1:06:01

boom, burn clock. It

Dani 1:06:07

burden argued for at least a 90 day jail sentence saying that the failure to impose incarceration was in a message. The such behavior was acceptable. Exactly. Magnuson said he would have preferred to impose some jail time. But said it was not possible to arrange around the defendant's work schedules.

Stephanie 1:06:32

I'm, it was me punching the mic and trying not to really punch it because we paid money for these and I don't wanna really wreck it, but I wanted to punch something and it's like a little punching bag in front of me.

Dani 1:06:46

It didn't work with their schedules, guys,

Stephanie 1:06:48

what are, what are they supposed to do? Their boss wasn't cool with it. That's kind of the nature of having a consequence. Sometimes it, and I agree. Like not even three months, not even one month.

Dani 1:07:01

Nothing. They can't spend some weekends in jail.

Stephanie 1:07:04

Yeah. Even I've seen people do that. They're working

Dani 1:07:06

24 7. That's it.

Stephanie 1:07:08

That must be, wow. These hardworking men that were just trying to watch out for the children.

Dani 1:07:14

Poor Keith. Poor Mr. And Mrs. Gilmore. Can I just

Stephanie 1:07:19

say, oh, and them pursuing the, for, for what

Dani 1:07:22

it was. So, because they had only lived here like four or five months, and they're like, I, I assume that in this

Stephanie 1:07:27

town, in this town, we just snatch people up.

Dani 1:07:30

They're like, we don't even wanna live here anymore.

Stephanie 1:07:32

I wouldn't,

Dani 1:07:33

they were probably retirement age, right? Because he was in his mm-hmm. Keith was in his thirties or probably retirement age. let's take our pensions from California and move to Northern Idaho where we're gonna get so much bang for a buck and stretch our money in retirement. And that's gonna be so beautiful

Stephanie 1:07:47

and gorgeous.

Dani 1:07:48

Who doesn't? We go fishing.

Stephanie 1:07:49

Let's buy a

Dani 1:07:49

boat. Who

Stephanie 1:07:50

doesn't? Who doesn't love a small town? And then they're like, this is the type of small town that we're in.

Dani 1:07:55

Yeah. They didn't even wanna live there anymore anyway.

Stephanie 1:08:00

Wow.

Dani 1:08:00

McDonald Sanchez. Well, I just wanna lay blame. Look who didn't get brought up here. Mrs. Brownson, you know, you were a fucking dramatic kind of about the whole thing. Oh, it was, I was terrified, honey. Save me. He looked,

Stephanie 1:08:16

it's like the white woman tear thing.

Dani 1:08:18

Like Yeah. And then to go to the bar and then wrap up some dudes that had been fucking drinking

Stephanie 1:08:24

But you know, getting people riled up over the percept. I felt he had, he had a bad presence.

Dani 1:08:32

I had never seen anyone like him before. It's because you lived in northern Idaho in 1985

Stephanie 1:08:37

and Yeah. You never saw a weird person before. Get the fuck over it. If someone's not actively doing something, mind your business. Mind your fucking business. Thank you. That would save so many people. Like these guys, they didn't mind their business and they thought they were gonna be vigilantes and be the hero. And their wives are gonna be so impressed with them. Now

Dani 1:08:58

they're

Stephanie 1:08:58

convicted felons. I'm, I'm taking care of it, honey. I got, don't you

Dani 1:09:01

worry,

Stephanie 1:09:02

I'm gonna get that man.'cause how dare he look weird to you

Dani 1:09:06

And I have a gun

Stephanie 1:09:08

and we've got a rope and we know exactly what to do with it.'cause how you restrain someone is you act like you're gonna hang'em.

Dani 1:09:16

Oh, I

Stephanie 1:09:19

enjoy dead. Yeah.

Dani 1:09:21

You know what was fun about this? Nobody actually died.

Stephanie 1:09:23

Yes. Which, thankfully,

Dani 1:09:26

and look, let me just tell you, just Keith's a good guy.'cause he said

Stephanie 1:09:32

he's just a little off.

Dani 1:09:33

He said after, after sentencing, Keith said he believed the punishment was fair. He said, some people just don't understand what constitutes a crime.

Stephanie 1:09:43

How very generous of him. And you know he is right. Sure. People don't understand what constitutes the crime. I love that he has that outlook and I feel like it even better portrays his true character. Like, yeah, he's a strange guy, has some weird habits, looks a little unkempt for him though. The victim in this to be like no jail time and think that it's fair. Like I said, I think that he kind of moved on and maybe he would know. I

Dani 1:10:09

really do think that was kind of it. Like

Stephanie 1:10:10

he's, he wouldn't know the, the trauma or triggers that are gonna come, but he is like, I'm okay. I'm still going out to eat and try tri-state area. Like I love, I love my life. I

Dani 1:10:19

was thinking about hitting Nevada next, maybe some more

Stephanie 1:10:21

again. Yeah. Anyway, mom and dad, can I have some cash? But yeah. Anyway, I loved this story. Um, I,

Dani 1:10:28

I was so excited. I'm like, I'm gonna tell you a story and nobody dies.

Stephanie 1:10:31

I know, and Danny can't. She's like, listen, nobody dies, but it's so good. And I, it's still crimes related. Yeah. And so I, I really, I've enjoyed this one quite a bit and it's. More lighthearted because no one dies.

Dani 1:10:46

That's, that's why it was kind of fun for me to

Stephanie 1:10:47

do. And

Dani 1:10:47

so it was fun for me to do something that was

Stephanie 1:10:49

refreshing.

Dani 1:10:50

I mean, unfortunately it's not a good thing for Keith, right? It sucked. But then we had vigilante justice and

Stephanie 1:10:57

judges being like, yeah, there's no crime here.

Dani 1:10:59

And of what, you know, I'm all about the

Stephanie 1:11:02

court stuff. Yeah,

Dani 1:11:03

the court stuff. And I'm like, it's interesting. How is this even fucking possible? And then we get to the end and yeah, we can't just really no gel time'cause we just can't work it around their work schedules.

Stephanie 1:11:14

Yeah.

Dani 1:11:14

I'm assuming they're not CEOs of some big company or some big non-profit where they couldn't live without'em for 90 days. But, uh, yeah.

Stephanie 1:11:21

Or if, if so, find another job. That's a consequence. That is you, if you have to go to jail for committing a crime, your work's not obligated to hold your job and most likely they won't. And that's just, that's a call to consequence. And you cannot tell me that they couldn't do a weekend jail thing.'cause even though I think that that is. Shitty. Like I've had friends that have had to do that. And it still is a consequence though. Yeah. At least you're still having to see the reality of, and I think it's a good wake up call. Yeah. Of this could be my life if I do that same time again every day. I could be here for years and not get to just clock in for the weekend and clock out on Monday and live my regular life. So even that would've been, I think, a crumb of justice. So I'm disappointed that that didn't happen. But I'll try to keep Keith's outlook and say some people are just ignorant to the law, which Sure. I thought that would be common sense to not try to lynch someone. But here we are. Good one. Denny. Really good one. I know. I, I was very upset. But these are the ones that I like'cause they're so interesting. like, follow, subscribe, go listen to the. If you didn't get to see the first 20 or so episodes, they're there for you're, how exciting. Look how

Dani 1:12:42

magical we are.

Stephanie 1:12:43

Oh gosh. I, like I'm say saying it would be a dream for some of my favorite podcasts to drop like a vault of 20 episodes. Oh, that would be so nice. So hopefully some of you out there get to benefit from that. we love ya. Word of mouth. It means the most. So tell your friends. we hope that you're enjoying it. And if you wanna reach out, email the lethal library@gmail.com. All right. Ten four rubber ducky. Fuck yeah. Oh,