56. Dismemberment and Deception: The Tragic Story of Ronald Needs

In this episode of The Lethal Library, Dani and Stephanie dig into a grim 1976 Idaho case that starts with a missing Payette butcher and ends with a shocking discovery along a dirt road in the Boise foothills: a partially burned, headless, armless torso hidden under a wooden door. As investigators connect the scene to Ronald Meads’ disappearance, attention quickly turns to his new wife, Sally, whose movements near the recovery site raise eyebrows and whose past includes violence, prison escapes, and a California manslaughter case. The trial becomes a battle over identification, venue, and circumstantial evidence, with experts, witnesses, and messy legal questions swirling around bail, parole rules, and the death penalty’s constitutionality. The episode closes with the conviction upheld on appeal and Sally’s later death in prison.

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Transcript

Dani 0:00

A headless armless torso was found beneath a wooden door in the Boise foothills. The victim had been missing only two days. His wife told police he walked away during a fishing trip and was never seen again. What followed? Exposed, a history of violence and a hidden past.

Stephanie 0:19

What? An opening. Okay. Wow. Straight to the point. Holy shit. This is gonna be an interesting one.

Dani 0:29

Yeah. This is kind of scaring me that we have two, uh, headless episodes in short order, but here we go. I found it and

Stephanie 0:38

I'm like,

Dani 0:39

this is juicy. So,

Stephanie 0:40

right. Let's into it. Okay, welcome back everyone to another episode of the Lethal Library. I'm Stephanie.

Dani 1:21

And I'm Danny.

Stephanie 1:22

And today we have yet another true crime tale directly out of the potato state, Idaho

Dani 1:27

Tater Land.

Stephanie 1:28

Good old Taland, if you will. Yes. Danny, what are we in store for today? This already is out of control.

Dani 1:36

Yes. Sources used today are articles from the Los Angeles Evening Citizen News, Pasadena Independent, Kellogg Evening News, Idaho Statesman, of course, Santa Barbara News Press, San Bernardino County Sun and Coeur d'Alene Press.

Stephanie 1:54

Wow.

Dani 1:55

I was very busy.

Stephanie 1:56

yeah. This was all over the place.

Dani 1:57

Yeah. On June 27th, 1976, Ronald needs a 33-year-old Payette Butcher was reported missing by his wife Sally needs. She told Elmore County authorities that she and her husband had been traveling in their motor home and had been fishing. She said they had argued they'd been drinking and that Ronald needs had taken sleeping pills, pills. Fuck

Stephanie 2:25

sleep in pales with the liquor.

Dani 2:28

With the liquor.

Stephanie 2:31

Not a, not a good combo.

Dani 2:31

Folks. According to her account, he left the motor home and didn't return.

Stephanie 2:38

Oh, went on an adventure.

Dani 2:39

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 2:40

A drunken sleeping pill adventure.

Dani 2:43

Deputy deputies accompanied her, accompanied her in an effort to locate the place where she had said she had last seen him. But she was unable to identify a specific location matching her description,

Stephanie 2:57

uh, over yonder.

Dani 2:58

Just over there somewhere, that general area. He left. Two days later on June 29th, an elderly Emmett man traveling along a dirt road in the Boise foothills, noticed an old wooden door lying lengthwise near the roadway. He stopped, and as he got a little closer. Noticed two feet sticking out from beyond the door.

Stephanie 3:23

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dani 3:26

The man discovered what appeared to be a human body wrapped in a sheet. The body was headless and armless and partially burned. Oh my gosh. He reported the discovery to the sheriff's office in Emmett because he said it was quicker and easier than traveling farther to make a report.'cause it was right on the. On the border.

Stephanie 3:49

Yeah. He's like, get the people, you guys tell

Dani 3:51

the people too quick. Let's go. Jim County deputies responded and were joined by ADA County authorities. The site was located about three quarters of a mile east of Milepost 16, just inside the ADA County, Jim County line. So I put this into the chat. Mm-hmm. To help me find it. And so it's off of Highway 16. Okay. And basically it was Beacon Light.

Stephanie 4:18

Really? Okay.

Dani 4:18

Before Beacon Light was Beacon Light.

Stephanie 4:22

Okay,

Dani 4:23

so anyways, locals,

Stephanie 4:25

now I know the area.

Dani 4:26

Yeah, yeah. Now you know where the area is at. Investigators found the torso wrapped in a sheet with that wooden door placed on top of it. burned debris and partially burned clothing. We're scattered around the body.

Stephanie 4:43

This already shit show written all over it. I mean, we are not carefully planning. Tried to burn a body, and especially back then before all the true crime people probably thought you could burn a body. Like you can burn a piece of wood, you can, it, it's a huge undertaking. You have to have tons of fuel, tons of extremely hot fire, and it takes forever. You're not gonna successfully burn a body and have it be unidentifiable. So, and then we, we tried to burn the body. That didn't work.

Dani 5:16

Let's put a door on top of

Stephanie 5:17

it. Yeah, I've, I've got this door. Where did the door come? Like, just found a door and they're like, that'll do what? And the feet are still poking out the end some fuckery was happening.

Dani 5:32

Officers also located fragments of green glass bottle caps and two wooden matchsticks near the remains. That's like leaving the bullets there.

Stephanie 5:44

Yeah, well throw the gun in there too. How? How about whatever you use to amputate this person's extremities? What the fuck?

Dani 5:52

Portions of clothing were still on the body, including the elastic waistband of some jockey shorts and the upper band of some brown trouser trousers. So I'm just saying if you're gonna take the effort to try to burn a body, at least the clothes should be burned. That's like not even half-ass effort.

Stephanie 6:13

Yeah. This was not well planned and. S clearly not executed in any way. She like, they just, you come to the conclusion, I'm gonna leave it on the side of the road with a door over it. Let's go.

Dani 6:27

What an autopsy determined the victim has suffered multiple stab wounds and gunshot injuries. Overkill. Pathologist said the stab wounds to the abdomen probably did not cause death, and that the gunshots decapitation or a slit throat could have been fatal. They're not sure a lot happened. It seems just, just the utter ca I'm just picturing the utter chaos of that trying to happen, and they're like either, oh, he is not dead yet. Let's do this, or, oh this. You know, just like, I'd be pissed. I'd be like, I've tried three different ways.

Stephanie 7:10

Mm-hmm.

Dani 7:11

Yeah. Anyways, but I would not murder anybody, so there's that too.

Stephanie 7:14

Yeah, true. But just. Sometimes the sheer dim wittedness of the things that we come across are like, what were you thinking? You were not thinking?

Dani 7:26

No. Most of the time they're not thinking based on decomposition and insect activity, which I find fascinating by the, I love

Stephanie 7:36

that stuff.

Dani 7:37

Doctors said the body had been dead for several days and had been outside for several days before Discovery. Okay. This wasn't a freezer case. We've seen those.

Stephanie 7:46

Mm-hmm.

Dani 7:47

Because of the condition of the Remains Authority said identification would require circumstantial and laboratory evidence.

Stephanie 7:56

Hmm.

Dani 7:59

And you have to remember what year we're in,

Stephanie 8:02

right? 76 was

Dani 8:03

it? Yeah. So we are not, uh, having. The forensic team come out and

Stephanie 8:10

No,

Dani 8:11

I mean I imagine there was some sort of forensics, but it's not a CSI forensic

Stephanie 8:15

and the science just wasn't,

Dani 8:17

it wasn't

Stephanie 8:17

there as good as it is now. Like now they have that, I don't know if you wanna call it a camp or whatever where they study bodies and like document exactly what's happening in certain temperatures. Yeah, I find that fast.

Dani 8:32

I could never do that, but I find it fascinating. I've listened to, I think Dan Cummins does one on that.

Stephanie 8:38

Um, it's incredible.'cause they're like, what about this humidity? What about this Yeah. Location. just so you can know exactly. A timeline.'cause that's what,

Dani 8:48

what you're supposed to be seeing on those bodies.

Stephanie 8:50

Mm-hmm.

Dani 8:51

How long they've been there. And when you donate, I'm sorry, I just remembered a TikTok about donating your. Um,

Stephanie 9:00

your body to science.

Dani 9:02

Yes. So, uh, just an offshoot here. Somebody was like, I can't remember. It was like on a, a big podcast or something, but it was a TikTok that they were doing. Maybe it was Joe Rogan anyways, or comedian, but this guy, um, his mom wanted to be donated to science and then to find out that they used her body. Um, to find out how explosives work on a pod. Yeah. And he is like, you think you're doing good, but then you find out your mom's unstrap to a bomb, like. Hmm.

Stephanie 9:38

Yeah. You probably thought, you know, some medical students are gonna come in or, right,

Dani 9:41

right.

Stephanie 9:42

But I, it's for

Dani 9:45

science. I mean, I'm all about, it's

Stephanie 9:46

for science.

Dani 9:47

Well, but just the general consensus, I think, with the public is that you're donating it so te so that, you know, doctors can learn about the body, or nurses can learn about the body, or Yes. You can specifically, I believe, request to be like, you know, put out in the wood deposed or, yeah, yeah, yeah. But. I don't think you're expecting to get

Stephanie 10:08

blown up.

Dani 10:10

Yeah,

Stephanie 10:10

probably not. Yeah. So anyways, maybe there's some fine print or some other things

Dani 10:15

you No, that's actually what they said. They said read the fine print.

Stephanie 10:18

Yeah,

Dani 10:19

you need to read the fine print. Okay. Got off on a tangent. That's

Stephanie 10:23

so sad.

Dani 10:25

Within hours of the discovery investigators focused on the missing person. Report filed two days earlier. Ronald needs had been reported missing before the body was found. An authority said no other adult male had been reporting missing in the area during that time.

Stephanie 10:39

Mm-hmm.

Dani 10:41

About three hours after the Ada County Sheriff's Office was notified of a body, a Jim County deputy.'cause these guys are working hand in hand. They're right there. Yeah. Right. A a Jim County deputy encountered Sally Meads driving the couple's motor home on a dirt road near the scene, just trucking along. According, uh, to a court affidavit later filed, she told the deputy she had pulled off the highway to stop and was traveling towards Payette. She said she stopped to have a coke,

Stephanie 11:13

a cocaine, or a.

Dani 11:16

A soda Coke.

Stephanie 11:17

Okay. A soda pup. So just doing a quick little toot officer. Have you seen that one where it's like, yeah, I do. I do a little tooting. Everyone can have a little toot. We have to freaking watch it. Okay.

Dani 11:38

The deputy said the stop appeared unusual because of the terrain. And the proximity to the body recovery site. The motor home was later searched by ADA County deputies as part of the investigation.

Stephanie 11:51

Hang on. Was there a door missing from the motor home?

Dani 11:53

No shit.

Stephanie 11:55

What do you mean? I'm, I don't know why you would think I'd be doing anything. They're like you, A large door is missing from the motor home.

Dani 12:02

I'm not actually sure where the door came from.

Stephanie 12:04

I bet it was probably like found somewhere or.

Dani 12:08

So

Stephanie 12:08

that'll do,

Dani 12:09

I probably flew off somebody going to the dump or something. Mm-hmm. I was on the side of the road anyway.

Stephanie 12:13

Perfect.

Dani 12:15

Yeah. Oh, how handy.

Stephanie 12:16

Invisible.

Dani 12:18

So handy for me right now. This, this works out well. That's crazy. I, uh, additional witnesses plays Sally needs in the area on successive days. One resident said she encountered the motor home in a ditch the day before the body was discovered. Oops. She identified the driver as Sally needs. Who told her her name was Karen, and she said her and her husband had taken separate vacations.

Stephanie 12:52

Totally normal and not weird at all. Everyone's doing that.

Dani 12:56

So she got stuck in this ditch, right?

Stephanie 13:00

She's having a hard time.

Dani 13:02

The motor home was pulled from the ditch. So this, this couple that she met, the husband went and she. Said, all right, I'll go get my tractor. We'll pull you outta here. And Sally needs continued on her way, just trucking along. Thanks for the help guys. Yeah. Me and my husband were on separate vacations. I, the person was like, what?

Stephanie 13:22

Like, okay. Yeah.

Dani 13:25

Another witness testified that Sally needs arrived at her home the day that Ronald turned up missing. And said she worried because her husband had attempted to drown himself in the Snake River.

Stephanie 13:39

Nobody's doing that. We're

Dani 13:40

now, we're just,

Stephanie 13:42

nobody's doing that.

Dani 13:43

That witness said, needs stayed overnight and made telephone calls to friends and relatives looking for her husband did she, investigators said that after filing the missing, per missing person report, Sally. Needs was unable to direct deputies back to the location where she said the motor home had been parked when her husband disappeared.

Stephanie 14:07

Come on. No.

Dani 14:09

She told authorities she had not been in the ETT area for a long time. Statements that later contrasted with witness sightings near the foothill. Do you remember that? Nice couple, Karen that pulled you outta the ditch? You remember that?

Stephanie 14:24

Yeah. Weird. People have been seeing me all around.

Dani 14:28

so this was in all of this happenings early, you know, in June.

Stephanie 14:34

Mm-hmm.

Dani 14:36

On August 27th, a magistrate issued a warrant charging needs with first degree murder and the death of her husband, Ronald.

Stephanie 14:44

They're moving.

Dani 14:45

Bail was set at$500,000.

Stephanie 14:49

May as well have been a cajillion back then. Right,

Dani 14:51

exactly. Uh, authorities said they began searching for her after learning. She had left Idaho following the investigation into the discovery of the headless armless torso found in June.

Stephanie 15:04

Yeah. She's getting outta Dodge.

Dani 15:05

She's like, okay.

Stephanie 15:06

She's like, I have a house on wheels.

Dani 15:07

I, bye. I, I did what? I, I, I did my job. I'm out. I reported him missing.

Stephanie 15:12

Yeah, he's missing. hopefully he's not looking for me'cause I'm leaving.

Dani 15:17

My, prosecutor said the body had tentatively. Been identified as Ronald tentatively

Stephanie 15:27

Yeah, we're, we don't have any dental records. We don't have any fingerprints. We don't have a face ahead

Dani 15:36

On September 8th, acting on a tip, ADA County Sheriff's detectives, arrested needs without incident in the Los Angeles area with assistance from California authorities. She was taken into custody and held in a Los Angeles jail while Idaho officials initiated extradition proceedings.

Stephanie 15:55

Founder, founder

Dani 15:58

authorities said, that she was 32 years old and formerly of pay at Idaho. So she is an Idaho win.

Stephanie 16:08

She be Idahoan

Dani 16:11

Needs appeared before a Los Angeles judge and waived extradition. On September 11th, she was escorted back to Idaho by law enforcement and flown into Boise. Welcome back. Deputy Sheriff Judy Axel escorted her through the Boise Air Terminal before she was transported to the ADA County Jail. She was booked and held in lieu of a$500,000 bail pending court proceedings on the first degree murder charge. So they got a ass. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 16:44

Murder. I said, you know what, if you come back with us real quick, I, I mean, your husband is missing from here.

Dani 16:51

And we did find a burned body where you were just hanging out, having a coke on the side of the. Weird, you know, back dirt road. Have you ever been in, have you ever been up in the mountains? And you're like, that recreational vehicle should not be up here

Stephanie 17:05

a hundred percent. No. She was in a place she should not have been.

Dani 17:08

That that's what I'm saying. You're like, maybe you should have kept your 38 foot, fifth wheel out of the place. That really is, that

Stephanie 17:15

has hairpin turns.

Dani 17:17

Yeah. This is tent camping, bro. What do you do? There's no hookups here. What the fuck? You've seen that and you're like,

Stephanie 17:24

like, we don't bring the tour bus here.

Dani 17:26

Right, exactly. So I, that's what I just kinda envisioned with that. I'm feeling that too. Like

Stephanie 17:30

whoopsie in a it.

Dani 17:32

Whoops. And they're like, uh, really? What are you, why

Stephanie 17:35

are you here?

Dani 17:36

This is kind of like, were you looking for a campground because this looks like campground material here.

Stephanie 17:43

And listen, no GPSI could have done it for sure.

Dani 17:47

Yeah, but I mean, at some point, have you ever been like, maybe we shouldn't go here? Have you ever been like up going camping or hiking and you're gonna get off on her? You're like,

Stephanie 17:57

looks

Dani 17:57

a little

Stephanie 17:58

dicey

Dani 17:59

maybe. Maybe we shouldn't take this road.

Stephanie 18:01

Yeah, yeah. Okay. I think she just kept going. I mean, she was rolling with it,

Dani 18:05

so she got stuck

Stephanie 18:06

in the ditch. She's all hopped up on a Coke and driving that thing like a bat outta hell, probably. And

Dani 18:13

Jesus, I just picture it

Stephanie 18:14

in my head. I'm, I'm picturing like the breaking bad. Yeah. Like just broken down on a dirt road. Wonderful.

Dani 18:29

I'm like, are you sure that won't be in your way? No, not at all. All these cool decorations, guys. Fucking

Stephanie 18:44

up the set

Dani 18:46

mind. The set stuff. Shit.

Stephanie 18:48

Show biz, baby.

Dani 18:50

Show biz. on September 14th, needs was arraigned in Ada County. Magistrate Judge George D. Carey set a date for a preliminary hearing and ordered that she remain in custody. Good job. Yeah. Good job. Uh, court records identified the victim as Ronald Deans her husband of about one month.

Stephanie 19:12

Oh no. Wow. Yeah. Newlyweds. Yeah. Was this their honeymoon? Damn

Dani 19:23

a scheduled preliminary hearing later that week was postponed after needs requested. Court appointed counsel so, Carrie Magistrate. Carrie assigned a public defender firm of Matthews, Wilson and Lee to represent her after a California law firm. Needs said, would appear on her behalf, did not attend, so she's thinking she has an attorney. Yeah. Um, my, um,

Stephanie 19:48

talk to my lawyer.

Dani 19:50

They're from California.

Stephanie 19:52

They said we don't know her.

Dani 19:53

Yeah. And they're like, uh, we're not coming. I mean, it's, attorneys have to be like, they're very state specific. Mm-hmm. There's different laws in different states. And look, there are some attorneys that can be practicing in multiple states, but it's prepared. They know.

Stephanie 20:09

Yeah.

Dani 20:09

But, but you can't just be like, Hey, I got, my cousin is an attorney in Minnesota. He's coming. No,

Stephanie 20:15

he's not coming.

Dani 20:16

Yeah. You have to be registered with a bar in that state. I believe that's how that works. So, yeah. Anyway, she thought she had her badass California, attorney coming up and he's like, no.

Stephanie 20:28

Yeah, absolutely not doing that.

Dani 20:30

And I'm just telling you, I don't think that they, Needs had any significant amount

Stephanie 20:35

of,

Dani 20:36

money

Stephanie 20:36

to pay for

Dani 20:37

that attorney lawyer.

Stephanie 20:38

Yeah.

Dani 20:43

at the request of the defense, Carrie ordered the courtroom cleared and rescheduled the hearing. During the closed preliminary proceedings, prosecutors outlined evidence gathered during the investigation, including those witness sightings, placing needs, and the couple's motor home near the area where the torso was found. It was more than just the torso, the legs were attached. Mm-hmm. But. Ada County prosecutor David Leroy, said testimony included accounts from law enforcement officers and civilians who described encounters with needs in the foothills before and after the body was discovered.

Stephanie 21:20

Yeah. She's been all over the place. Out here.

Dani 21:22

She's very little busy. Mm-hmm. Mm. Jim County Deputy Ron Roman testified that he encountered needs near the scene shortly after the torso was found. Prosecutors also presented testimony about an earlier altercation between the couple involving knives earlier in June.

Stephanie 21:40

What is happening over there?

Dani 21:43

Defense attorney Alyssa Matthews, challenged the state evidence focusing on the tentative nature of the body's identification and the absence of the head and arm. Matthews argued that conflicting testimony and the lack of conclusive identification failed to establish probable cause.

Stephanie 22:04

Especially back then. They're like, it could be anybody's body when it really can't. Who else is missing? You know? But when you don't have that fingerprint or dental or,

Dani 22:17

yeah. He's like, I don't even know why we're here.

Stephanie 22:19

Yeah.

Dani 22:20

Do we even know that that is Ronald Dean?

Stephanie 22:22

Yeah, it could be anyone's body.

Dani 22:26

On September 25th, Carrie ruled that there was probable cause to hold needs on trial, for a charge of first degree murder, but agreed to hear additional defense evidence before issuing a final order. So he is like, all right, gimme what you got. Mm-hmm. I'll listen a little more. He reduced bail from 500,000 to$100,000. Prosecutors said the missing body parts had never been recovered. I cannot believe that, by the way.

Stephanie 22:53

Right.

Dani 22:54

And that identification relied on circumstantial and laboratory evidence. The defense continued to dispute the identity of the remains.

Stephanie 23:03

We don't, we can't know who it is, so

Dani 23:05

I will say the defense is defensive.

Stephanie 23:07

Mm-hmm.

Dani 23:09

On September 30th, Carrie ruled that needs would stand trial. He was like, no, we're going to trial. He said The additional defense testimony did not alter his earlier finding of probable cause. The magistrate denied a further reduction in bail. I already went from 500 to 100.

Stephanie 23:28

Yeah. What else do you want me to do here?

Dani 23:31

needs remained in the ADA County Jail as the case was set to proceed in district court. on October 16th. Needs entered a plea of not guilty to the charge of that first degree murder. Her attorney filed motions seeking the dismissal of the charge, again,

Stephanie 23:49

par for the course,

Dani 23:49

and challenging the sufficiency of the evidence.

Stephanie 23:53

They gotta do it.

Dani 23:55

During the hearing, judge Che noticed that the constitutionality of Idaho's mandatory death penalty for first degree murder was in question. Following a recent ruling by the US Supreme Court. We have discussed this mm-hmm. In many needs remained in custody, pending further hearings as the case moved towards trial. After needs entered her not guilty plea, her defense immediately sought again, the dismissal of the charge, arguing that the evidence presented failed to establish probable cause that she committed the crime.

Stephanie 24:34

Okay. I mean, it's very just suspicious that if your husband's missing, you're just going on along back to California and

Dani 24:42

yeah. Fourth District Judge Ray Deci scheduled hearings on the motions while needs remained in custody on that a hundred thousand dollars bail. At a hearing later in October, Matthews also asked the court to reduce bail. Again, arguing that the amount was unreasonable and that needs was not a flight risk. He told the court that if bail were lowered between. 10 to$20,000 a California relative could post bond for her release. I don't think that's how any of that works. Um, well, and just so people know, like here, different states are different about bonds. Mm-hmm. So a hundred thousand dollars bond, you would need to put up 10% of that to a bondsman. Right. So$10,000. So,

Stephanie 25:33

so now we're asking to get her out for a thousand

Dani 25:35

bucks. Thousand bucks.

Stephanie 25:35

Yeah. You know, if you guys have like a Dollar Tree special for these, bonds, we could probably roll with that. That's why I'm like, that's not how any of the, and listen, we could go on and on about the cash bail system and I don't really agree with it, but it just now not how things are done. So

25:54

I

Dani 25:54

know, but this is fucking murder.

Stephanie 25:56

A thousand bucks.

Dani 25:57

Yeah.

Stephanie 25:58

Get out of town.

Dani 26:01

Matthew said the case against needs was not what it had appeared to be initially, and that some evidence gathered earlier in the investigation had not held up under laboratory testing. He said needs has cooperated with authorities after her husband was reported missing and was arrested peacefully in California. Okay, he's trying to get her out on bond. ADA county prosecutor Leroy opposed the request arguing that the nature of the crime and needs background justified keeping bail high. Leroy told the court that needs had a prior conviction for involuntary manslaughter in California and said, bail should remain at a hundred thousand dollars. Or here's an idea, let's increase it.

Stephanie 26:50

Yeah, let's do even more. So she was convicted of involuntary manslaughter.

Dani 26:55

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 26:56

Doesn't look good.

Dani 26:59

And if you don't think, I'm not gonna tell you that story.

Stephanie 27:01

Oh, I know you have not

Dani 27:02

listened to our podcast

Stephanie 27:03

before. I'm just, I'm just patiently waiting for it. Absolutely.

Dani 27:07

During the same hearing, dichi said he could not rule on either the bail reduction request or the motion to dismiss until he had reviewed the transcript of the pulmonary hearing, which had not yet been completed. He also indicated that he might rule that if convicted needs could receive no more than a life sentence, despite being charged with first degree murder because of the recent court decisions calling mandatory death penalties into question. And they were

Stephanie 27:35

mm-hmm. They

Dani 27:35

were all wrong.

Stephanie 27:37

We cannot make the problem any worse.

Dani 27:38

Yeah.

Stephanie 27:39

So let's just stick with life. Okay.

Dani 27:45

At a subsequent hearing, Matthews expanded on his request for reduced bail portraying needs as a woman who had lived a law abiding life for several years, despite a troubled past, he told the court that needs had been beaten by her stepfather, placed in a youth home as a child, and later struggled with alcohol and

Stephanie 28:07

drugs.

Dani 28:09

Matthews outlined her criminal history. Including her earlier manslaughter conviction in California. Her prison escape, her recapture and her eventual discharge without parole. He said the California Parole Board had granted that discharge because of her conduct during several years when she lived as an escapee, and that the board believed she had learned from her experiences and was living a decent life.

Stephanie 28:38

But she's not a flight risk. Danny. She's plotting she, she's like, you try to get me out on some bail. I'm gonna be seen if I can tunnel through these walls. We'll see who gets there first. She lived for years without being recaptured, and they just said, you know what? All right. You go on and we, we feel it's punishment enough. Usually they wanna lay the hammer on you. If you escape, they're like, you're avoiding your consequences. Was she being Mother Teresa while she was out? I know this is all gonna be answered, but I'm just flabbergasted.

Dani 29:22

Leroy again objected saying the seriousness of the charge and needs prior escape history warranted, continued detention.

Stephanie 29:30

He's like, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because that's not good.

Dani 29:33

He argued that needs posed a risk and said the bail should not be reduced.

Stephanie 29:40

Agreed.

Dani 29:54

So do you wanna hear about this?

Stephanie 29:58

I've gotta know.

Dani 29:59

Previous conviction,

Stephanie 30:00

what were you up to? Ms. Sally O'Malley.

Dani 30:04

On the night of August 23rd, 1964, Harry McGuire, a 53-year-old Los Angeles bar owner, closed his bar and went upstairs to his apartment behind the business. Ooh. And he took a woman with him as one does. Later that night, McGuire was found lying on the floor of the apartment shot in the abdomen. He was taken by ambulance to General Hospital while conscious McGuire spoke with ambulance attendants and police. He

Stephanie 30:36

said, listen up.

Dani 30:38

McGuire said he had gone into the bathroom after entering the apartment. He said that when he came out, the woman was holding his revolver, not good. McGuire said she shot him, took his car and left him there.

Stephanie 30:55

Yikes.

Dani 30:56

McGuire remained hospitalized for more than two weeks, and on September 11th, 1964, he died at General Hospital from complications of the gunshot wound

Stephanie 31:07

and being shot in the stomach, the abdomen, and living two weeks. That's a painful way to die I bet. So.

Dani 31:15

I fully, and this is probably just very naive of me, but I fully expected him to recover. Me

Stephanie 31:21

too.

Dani 31:22

If he's talking. And it wasn't, uh, I know the stomach has a lot of parts, but you know, if somebody gets shot in the heart, the head

Stephanie 31:31

Yeah.

Dani 31:31

You're like, mm,

Stephanie 31:33

not good.

Dani 31:34

Not gonna recover. Most likely not getting a shot in the stomach. I, I'm still kind of hopeful.

Stephanie 31:40

Mm-hmm.

31:41

For

Dani 31:41

sure. For recovery

Stephanie 31:42

there. There's hope, there's more hope there for sure. But, you know, medicine also wasn't what it is today too, so I'm sure it wasn't a pleasant death and that sucks.

Dani 31:54

Police identified the woman as Sally, Joanne Norris, age 20, a former Idaho resident living in California. After her arrest, Norris gave a different account of what happened inside the apartment. Oh

Stephanie 32:08

really?

Dani 32:09

Of course she did. Norris told police that she and Maguire had been drinking. And a side note, totally forgot. Sally needs is Sally Norris. Right. So it's one and same, but you know, us, us women go be changing last names. Mm-hmm. Every once in a while. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 32:28

So she was Norris back in the day,

Dani 32:30

back in the day she was a Norris. So she said that they had been drinking and she said, uh, that McGuire thought he heard someone outside and became frightened, nor said McGuire, loaded his revolver and pointed it at her. She said she persuaded him to put the gun down and then she picked it up. She picked up the revolver and McGuire tried to take it away from her. And the gun discharged during the struggle. She denied intentionally shooting him.

Stephanie 33:04

And that just doesn't seem like a very likely story to me. I feel like. There's a million other more likely stories that one could say of like, I didn't wanna go up there. He was holding me against my will,

Dani 33:16

asking me to do things that I didn't want to do.

Stephanie 33:19

Mm-hmm. And

Dani 33:19

those kind of situations. No, uh, I picked up the gun because he set it down.

Stephanie 33:28

Yeah. It just, it still doesn't track. Like she's got, she's got a different story, but

Dani 33:37

a lot of different

Stephanie 33:38

mm-hmm.

Dani 33:39

You wanna know what the police said?

Stephanie 33:40

What'd they say?

Dani 33:41

Police said Norris had gone to the apartment with a male companion and that robbery had been discussed.

Stephanie 33:48

Oh. So there's a third party here.

Dani 33:50

A neighbor reported seeing the shadow of a man on the veranda that night. So McGuire was probably right in the fact that he thought that she, someone's

Stephanie 34:03

outside.

Dani 34:03

Yeah. Had come there to trap him and rob him. With a male companion outside Norris was charged with first degree murder.

Stephanie 34:15

And I do just wanna point out, you know, she's 20, he's 53. Not unheard of. No.

Dani 34:21

You

Stephanie 34:21

know, someone, bar owner, maybe a big personality. Sure. But,

Dani 34:27

and she was also super hot. She was in the papers, uh, when all this was going down. It was like, model this and look her that. And, uh, she was very pretty. Um,

Stephanie 34:41

and you see that type of shit on tiktoks now too. Yeah. Like the, some of these girls in their mugshot look like it's a literal photo for their portfolio.

Dani 34:50

Yeah.

Stephanie 34:50

I'm like, sis, I'm sorry for whatever you're going through, but you know what, you could submit this to a modeling. Remember the hot felon?

Dani 34:57

Oh yes. Like,

Stephanie 35:00

it's just crazy.'cause I know that that wouldn't be me. It would not be me, but oh my God.

Dani 35:05

P girls mugshot. We should, do we need to go to the penitentiary this summer and do the mugshots out there? We do. We absolutely do. And go visit some of the, um, graystones of some of the old timey ones we've done.

Stephanie 35:17

Right? Oh, that's a great idea.

Dani 35:19

We could do a field

Stephanie 35:20

trip.

Dani 35:21

Yeah.

Stephanie 35:21

Maybe we'll take you guys along.

Dani 35:25

So she was arrested and charged with first degree murder and the case moved through Los Angeles Superior Court in 1965, nor pled guilty to involuntary manslaughter. She was sentenced to a term of up to 10 years and committed to the California Institution for women. Probably a good choice on her part.

Stephanie 35:46

Yeah. Plea, plea deal. Without this having to go to a jury

Dani 35:51

10 years. She's only 20 something.

Stephanie 35:53

Probably get out on five. Good behavior.

Dani 35:55

Yeah. So. Probably a good choice.

Stephanie 35:58

Mm-hmm.

Dani 35:58

Uh, sorry for the McGuire family.

Stephanie 36:00

Yeah. Sucks for them.

Dani 36:01

Mm-hmm. On January 4th, 1968, Norris escaped while being transported to a medical appointment.

Stephanie 36:10

Naughty girl.

Dani 36:11

Lemme just tell you what these medical appointments were,

Stephanie 36:14

what

Dani 36:14

she was like volunteering for these, uh, different kind of experiments,

Stephanie 36:21

like trials.

Dani 36:22

Yeah. Oh. So

Stephanie 36:24

I think it's crazy. That was even allowed, like if you want a little vacate from the, because who wouldn't, who wouldn't want like, get a change of scenery? A field trip.

Dani 36:34

They probably fed her lunch. Mm-hmm. Something better than the prison food trash she was getting. And she's like, look, I go there, they have, they have real sandwiches. They don't inject me

Stephanie 36:46

with something. I get

Dani 36:47

a sandwich in a what I care and a Coke. Thank you. She'll be, does like

Stephanie 36:51

her Coca-Cola?

Dani 36:52

She, she does. Um. So this poor fucking nurse, she pulled a knife on the registered nurse driving her like this was personal service. She wasn't taking a bus or, you know,

Stephanie 37:08

and there wasn't a guard there, there weren't, this is how different it was. They're like, sure.

Dani 37:12

She wasn't in like some prison bus with like 20 other women, you know, with a bunch of guards. No, the nurse swung by the prison and picked her up. Um, so she pulled the knife on, the registered nurse forced the nurse from the car, I wanna know where she got the knife and fled in the state vehicle. She said, Kay thinks honey, bye. Thanks for the ride. Bye bitch. Uh, but fortunately the nurse wasn't injured, which is good, but also very traumatic. She's just trying to do her job. She goes back to work. She's like, look, I don't

Stephanie 37:49

wanna, I'll be doing this transport thing anymore.

Dani 37:51

I'm not. I'm not built for this.

Stephanie 37:54

Yeah. I'll, I'll be nursing not taxing inmates.

Dani 37:57

Yeah. Thank you.

Stephanie 37:58

Please.

Dani 37:59

Yeah. Uh, Norris was captured and returned to custody. She pled guilty to robbery for taking the vehicle she's gonna pleading and a judge ordered the sentence to be served consecutively to her manslaughter term. Just get a little bit more time well deserved. You can't be like the violent nature of it

Stephanie 38:22

not helping your case,

Dani 38:23

honey. So, four years later, in June of 71

Stephanie 38:27

mm-hmm.

Dani 38:28

Norris was on a temporary furlough from the California Institution for women, and they'd be doing this.

Stephanie 38:34

We, we remember Creech and how he was remanded to a, like, highly secure psych ward and they're like. But yeah, you get your weekend pass. And then

Dani 38:48

he went to California and fucking

Stephanie 38:49

murdered somebody out outside of state lines and was backed by curfew.

Dani 38:53

No, he

Stephanie 38:53

was, oh, he was late.

Dani 38:54

He was late, but he called and he called and let him know he was gonna be late return. And

Stephanie 38:58

they were like, it happened.

Dani 38:59

That's

Stephanie 39:00

okay. Life happens bud.

Dani 39:03

Work life balance,

Stephanie 39:06

psych ward, murder spree, balance. We gotta gotta advocate for yourselves people. Oh my God.

Dani 39:16

So while out on furlough, she just didn't return and was listed as an escapee. So this is what happened. I She overstayed her furlough. Right. And we see that. Um, but she did later contact the authorities and said, all right, come get me. And they're like, no. They literally is like. You gotta return on your own.

Stephanie 39:47

Yeah, go and get back to the station or something.

Dani 39:49

We're not coming to get you. And she said, you know what? Fuck it. Fuck it. She remained at large for more than four years.'cause somebody wouldn't give her a little ride. That would never happen nowadays.

Stephanie 40:06

Oh

Dani 40:06

no. It would be on the news.

Stephanie 40:07

They'd have the SWAT team showing up to collect you.

Dani 40:10

Oh, fuck yeah. On August 17th, 1974, police and Nisa Idaho arrested a woman working as a secretary under the name Sally Stone. Oh.

Stephanie 40:26

Sally Stone got a ring to it.

Dani 40:29

Little s authorities identified her as Norris, who was wanted in California for escape or just not coming back. Look. Not coming back is one thing. Pulling a, pulling a knife on a nurse. Yeah. That's is another thing. But that they didn't even go bother to go get her when she called.

Stephanie 40:48

They're like, yeah. Anyway, Sally we're, we've got a lot on our books today, so I can't, if you could just come back and she's like, eh, I don't think I'm gonna do that.

Dani 40:59

We gotta stop at Dunking. We need some donuts and shit. Yeah. I don't have time for this.

Stephanie 41:03

If you're not gonna come get me

Dani 41:06

four years later.

Stephanie 41:07

Yeah, I'm gonna go to Idaho.

Dani 41:11

She was returned to California custody on October 21st, 1974. In March of 1975, Norris was just charged without parole. They just gave up and she returned to Idaho. Soon after

Stephanie 41:31

they said we got bigger fish, fish to fry.

Dani 41:33

So. But that she was only back in custody. So missing for four years. Mm-hmm. That would never happen today. Never. Uh, she was out doing her thing for four years and then they're like, just give us five more months. You can get the fuck. Alright. We'll call it Even let bygones be bygones. We fucked up. You fucked up. It's okay. Never

Stephanie 42:01

would happen.

Dani 42:03

So there's a little background on Ms. Sally needs slash Norris. She's got a little history. Yeah. A little bit. So back to the bond.

Stephanie 42:15

Yeah.

Dani 42:16

Okay. let's move back. Back into, 1976. Mm-hmm. Where all this is going down. Needs indeed posted the$25,000 bond and was released from the ADA County Jail on November 11th. Outliving life at a hearing two days later, ey granted a defense request to postpone the trial until the week of May 2nd, 1977, saying the defense needed additional time to prepare needs appeared in court until the judge that the new trial date was acceptable to her. And this is because of the speedy trial stuff.

Stephanie 42:54

Sure. I'm glad she's, I'm glad

Dani 42:54

that it worked for her though, because

Stephanie 42:56

she's a busy woman and if you're busy and have appointments, apparently the court has to abide by that. If, if a jail sentence is gonna make you lose your job, the court can't impose that sentence.

Dani 43:12

You're still hung up on.

Stephanie 43:13

She's, I'm so hung up on our last episode, episode 51. Like I still, well, they couldn't even do three months'cause it didn't, it didn't work with their schedules

Dani 43:26

guys. Oh, I think it's so funny. Her attorney said the bond arrangements have been made in California and that needs would return there briefly to retrieve personal belongings because she had the relative down there with the bond and all that stuff. Alright. Weird that they're allowed to go across state lines. The process, it's so fucking weird. You can't even leave the county if you're on parole.

Stephanie 43:49

Mm-hmm.

Dani 43:50

But you're out just on a, on a fucking first degree murder charge. You posted a bond heading to Cali, going back to Cali. Kelly, Kelly, and she did the prosecution, which had opposed any reduction in bail. Objected to the delay, but agreed to the continue. They're like, are you not seeing what we're seeing? Thank you.

Stephanie 44:12

But they're like, go for it then.

Dani 44:15

Fine.

Stephanie 44:15

What am I gonna do?

Dani 44:18

As the case moved toward trial, the motor home that had been seized as evidence became this subject of a separate court dispute. Uh oh. And for some OGs around here, Dan Webo Ford,

Stephanie 44:31

Dan Webo Ford,

Dani 44:33

an AMPA Auto dealer, filed suit in the fourth district court seeking the return of the 24 foot champion motor home, valued at over$14,000.

Stephanie 44:44

Pretty penny back then,

Dani 44:46

which had been impounded during the investigation. Give us our stuff back. The dealer said the vehicle was being wrongfully detained and asserted. It was lawful. It was the lawful owner. Yeah, I know, but you'd be given loans to murderers and you know,

Stephanie 45:07

and so you are WebU someone was very likely killed or maimed, you know, in this motor home unlawfully detained.

Dani 45:20

Hmm. Uh,

Stephanie 45:21

I think that's up to debate here. Might

Dani 45:23

be a little

Stephanie 45:23

stretch. You, you might, there's gotta be some type of insurance for this and they probably should have had it. Like someone kills someone in your vehicle that's on loan.

Dani 45:33

Your vehicle, the vehicle's impounded.

Stephanie 45:36

Write it off. It's got you. Write it off. Fucking shit's crazy.

Dani 45:41

Uh, little side note here. Well, the motor home had just been purchased by Ronald shortly before his death and was taken into custody after investigators learned. Sally needs had been driving it near the area where the torso was found. But I am wondering, so Ron. S brother worked at Dan Weald.

Stephanie 46:01

Oh, really?

Dani 46:02

So I'm wondering if they like made a special deal for him maybe to not get a, a loan through a bank. Maybe it was a direct, now I'm thinking about it. Maybe it was like,

Stephanie 46:11

so they were more like,

Dani 46:13

give us

Stephanie 46:13

our shit.

Dani 46:13

Yeah. By owner. There was no bank that was out. He, it was actually the dealership. So it,

Stephanie 46:21

and I bet, I bet it hurt to get, I'm just

Dani 46:23

dotting

Stephanie 46:23

right now to give someone a special deal.

Dani 46:25

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 46:25

Special hookup and now you're never gonna get the payments for that. And you've lost a$14,000 vehicle

Dani 46:31

and there's a, a dead torso guy out in the desert. God damn. Dan Weil Ford asked the court to order Ada County prosecutor David Leroy and defense attorney Ellison Matthews to show cause why the vehicle should not be returned. Prosecutors were

Stephanie 46:48

like,

Dani 46:49

no, it's evidence an a

Stephanie 46:52

pending murder case. And again, like so. You know, you hear about these more modern day murders and how they'll just take your phone and they're not gonna give it back until the trial. If they give it back, it's when the trial's complete. That's years.

Dani 47:10

Years.

Stephanie 47:11

And you just gotta buy. If you're innocent or guilty,

Dani 47:15

you gotta just go buy a new phone.

Stephanie 47:16

Yeah. You're your shit outta luck.

Dani 47:19

That'd be a weird conversation going into like T-Mobile or Verizon being like, look, I don't have, I, I don't know how difficult this is gonna be, but the police have my phone and I need to get a new phone. I was just a little murder thing anyway. Um, is there any way to import my contacts?

Stephanie 47:39

Yeah,

Dani 47:39

please. And get all my pictures back without actually physically having my, is there

Stephanie 47:42

anything on the cloud?

Dani 47:44

Yeah, please. And then the sales person's like, oh my fucking God. Anyway. Um, in their brain, right? And then they, well, T two backup to the cloud.

Stephanie 47:54

And what if it's no, then they're like,

Dani 47:56

and don't murder me because you know, please, as the case moved forward, defense attorney Matthews sought a change of venue arguing that extensive publicity following Sally needs arrest had made it impossible to see an impartial jury in Ada County.

Stephanie 48:18

And we've had this several times and it's move it, if you need to move it, move it. Because this is a lot of the What causes the appeals? Appeals appeal,

Dani 48:28

or you can bust in.

Stephanie 48:29

Mm-hmm.

Dani 48:30

So a lot of reasons they don't wanna change the venue is because of the price.

Stephanie 48:34

Oh yeah.'cause

Dani 48:35

they buy it because then they're paying for everybody to

Stephanie 48:37

hotels per

Dani 48:37

deal meals look, and that's a lot more people than 12 jurors. Mm-hmm. Or even with the alternates and all that stuff. Just bring them here.

Stephanie 48:48

Yeah,

Dani 48:49

bring them here.

Stephanie 48:50

If you can prove a concern, do it.

Dani 48:53

Exactly.'cause then we just save on all of that. judge Darci denied the motion ruling that a fair jury could still be selected despite the coverage again, needs remain free on that$25,000 bond

Stephanie 49:10

living life

Dani 49:10

as a jury selection began in Boise, the trial opened the week of May 2nd, 1977 before a jury of eight women and four men. Ada County prosecutor David Leroy, told jurors the state would prove that Sally needs murdered her husband and attempted to conceal the crime by dismembering and burning his body to prevent identification. Leroy described the marriage as a as stormy and said the evidence would show that the defendant was the last person seen with her husband and was repeatedly present near the place where the body was found. Yeah.

Stephanie 49:49

Why are you just. Zooming around repeatedly this place, and you didn't see the door with the feet,

Dani 49:59

especially if you were looking for your missing husband.

Stephanie 50:02

Where's my husband?

Dani 50:03

Oh, couldn't be the, couldn't be those feet underneath the door.

Stephanie 50:06

Yeah.

Dani 50:07

Laying damn near nearby the side of the road. And in a weird, I will never understand. Process, thought, process.

Stephanie 50:17

The defense counsel reserved opening remarks. And this is so weird when defenses do this, and you know, it can be said, usually the argument is the defense does not have the burden of proof, is what you hear from lawyers when they do this. However, even though you don't have to prove something, I, your job is to build doubt and without an opening statement. And you see some of these folks that don't ever call any of their own witnesses and don't even do sometimes a closing statement. It's fucking weird. That's not how it works. It's a cop out to me. I feel like it's for lawyers that can't handle the case anyway. But they're like, no, but listen to the strategery that I have. I'm so smart because if I, if I try to prove something, then they can pick it apart, but it, they just have to prove it. And I think that my case is strong enough,

Dani 51:14

and more than likely it's that they don't even know how to present a defense.

Stephanie 51:19

Mm-hmm.

Dani 51:20

And so they're gonna wait till the prosecution lays out its case and they'll be like, ah ha.

Stephanie 51:25

Yeah.

Dani 51:25

This is what happened.

Stephanie 51:26

Now I can go based on what they put forth. Yeah. It's weird. And I've heard somebody, like, also, I didn't want the prosecution to know my hand. Okay. But courtrooms are theater.

Dani 51:40

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 51:41

And you're, you're not building that emotional connection with the jury of consider this point of view. What if this happened to you? Like. And you weren't guilty'cause you would never do that jury, would you? So isn't it reasonable to believe that maybe this is just a bungled up Ky dink?

Dani 52:01

No. Instead I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut.

Stephanie 52:02

Yeah, it's, I don't like it. I, I think it's a fucking total cop out.

Dani 52:08

The state's first witness described, discover the discovery of the body, Lewis Burke, an Emmett Landscaper and former cowboy. Love that me too. That they described. That testified that he discovered the body on June 29th while driving along a dirt road in the Boise foothills that he said he had traveled frequently. Burke told the jury he was out riding in the hills over a road. He had traveled a thousand times when something near the roadside caught his attention. He said he noticed an old door leaning lengthwise and that it stood out because it was not something he had seen there before. And I, I would never wanna stumble upon something like this, so this is awful. And you know, these, these good old boys out there riding in the hills, they're like,

Stephanie 52:59

mm-hmm. That wasn't there yesterday. Yeah. They know it like the back of their hand.

Dani 53:04

Yeah. Burke testified that as he passed the door, he saw what appeared to be human remains beneath it. I went past it five or six feet and I seen those feet with the toes pointed downward, and I knew they had to be human. He said, he told the jury there was nothing between the door and the road to block the view. You couldn't miss it. There's nothing between it and the road. Burke

Stephanie 53:30

said so again poorly. Why is it right by the road? It couldn't be 50 yards out. It would've probably been never noticed. We're talking like desert planes of nothingness. Yeah.

Dani 53:46

Got his piece of sagebrush somewhere or something. Hello? He testified that the body appeared to be wrapped in a sheet and that the head and arms were missing. Look, I see feet hanging out of a door in the desert. I am. I'm not looking. Um, I see feet. I am backing up and getting in the

Stephanie 54:10

car. I'm not, I'm not gonna flip over the door. And I'm different because I feel like I would, especially if I had never been into like true crime and worried about contaminating a scene.'cause I feel like my mind is like, surely that cannot be, you know? It's how people see a traumatic event and they're like, that's not happening. But something crazy is happening. And so they don't call the cops, but they're just, their mind will not let them believe that this is real life. So I'd be like, this has gotta be a prank or something. And I probably would've flipped that thing over and I would've regretted it, because that's gotta be one of the most unsettling things you can see as a human, a body without a head or arms.

Dani 54:55

Well, we've had a couple, uh, stories that we, that had decap, remember the Snake River one? Yes. Where those, the fishermen

Stephanie 55:01

found, found it? Ooh, no. There's something, as humans, I think that anyone, whether you're a great person or maybe a not so great person, that's gonna stick with you. And it's not something, it's just so terrible. I feel bad for this guy. I know he is a good old boy. He's a cowboy, but that's just, no one should have to see that.

Dani 55:29

He testified that the body appeared to be wrapped in a sheet and that the head and arms were missing. I cannot even quote. It looked like a body wrapped in some kind of sheet deal. Burke said, I just picture this guy right now,

Stephanie 55:43

some kind of sheet deal.

Dani 55:45

It looked headless. I just love that like the head and arms are missing. Well, yeah, that means headless, bro. Yeah,

Stephanie 55:54

it looked pretty headless to me.

Dani 55:57

Oh, sorry. He also told jurors he noticed insects around the remains. I noticed a few green flies floating around and he said Burke testified that he reported what he had seen to the sheriff's office in Emmett rather than trying to reach authorities elsewhere. He told the court he chose that route because it was quicker and easier than attempting to report the discovery from a nearby farmhouse or business. He's getting her done. Or to drive to Ada County. He said, no,

Stephanie 56:30

I'm, I know where the sheriff's office is. I'll just go there.

Dani 56:34

Berk later returned to the scene with a Jim County Sheriff's deputy who was joined by ADA County officers and investigators from Boise.'cause this be an ADA County case.

Stephanie 56:44

Mm-hmm.

Dani 56:47

Investigators testified about the condition of the scene and the remains. Ada County Sheriff's Detective Mike Roberts said the torso was partially burned, wrapped in a sheet and uncovered by a door. He said, officers found charred clothing, fragments under clothing, broken glass and wooden matches near the body. Those damn matchsticks. The head and arms were never located and I still think that's crazy. A whole fucking head look, I'm gonna tell you, bones of an arm. Once they're fully decomposed, just the bones itself maybe would look like an'cause you're not expecting to find mm-hmm. Human bones. So that could have been chalked up to deer and that's way easier to bury too. Yeah.

Stephanie 57:38

You don't have to go too deep.

Dani 57:40

No, but still, if I saw, I mean even up at the cabin you see longer bones and I always assume it's a deer or an elk or Yeah. Something of that nature. Never assume, that it is of human nature, but a skull.

Stephanie 57:59

Mm-hmm. No getting around that.

Dani 58:01

But that

Stephanie 58:02

was never until to this day where we could test dental and DNA, that it still hasn't been found.

Dani 58:09

Yeah. There's no mistaking. Remember that one we did about the guy in Idaho City and he was like. What is that underneath the tree?

Stephanie 58:16

Yes. And he is like, I moved it skull a hundred percent. Skull. A hundred percent. You know,

Dani 58:23

you know.

Stephanie 58:24

But even that, like they didn't have cadaver dogs back then. And you know, Idaho, especially way back when, didn't have a lot of resources. But we couldn't call someone to bring in'cause I'm, it sounds like there was several locations where she was spotted.

Dani 58:41

Yes.

Stephanie 58:42

That's what I'm

Dani 58:42

saying.

Stephanie 58:43

Fenced in a location of, I mean, she was taking this damn motor home Offroading in places it shouldn't have been. She couldn't have gotten too far. You know, there's specific pinpoints of where she has been spotted. Mm-hmm So there's gotta be, I wish that that would've happened.'cause that would've,

Dani 59:06

because there's there's issues, right. The defense is gonna be like me.

Stephanie 59:10

Well, and even just for the family. Yeah. Like knowing that your family's body part. Head and arms are somewhere out in the wilderness that's unsettling. Yeah. And there's just something that I think people, it helps with healing to be able to have someone's body.

Dani 59:29

Yeah. I feel like there wasn't, uh, much effort and I didn't actually see anything in, uh, my research where they're like, they had, you know, 20 sheriff's deputies out there and they called in doing

Stephanie 59:43

a big search

Dani 59:43

or like a, I didn't see any of that stuff. Yeah.

Stephanie 59:46

So you just wonder

Dani 59:48

it like, well, we're missing this, but we got it.

Stephanie 59:51

We got a torso and legs.

Dani 59:54

Roberts testified that pathologists from around the country were consulted in an effort to identify the remains and that infrared photography failed to reveal, distinguishing, distinguishing scars because of the conditions of the body Fair.

Stephanie 1:00:08

Yeah. And it's tough that he didn't have. A tattoo or some other like surgery with metal that they could have like screws in spine or something that they could have locked in

Dani 1:00:21

because we did have that one. Sorry, I keep going back. No, but remember that one gal that was murdered by her husband and then she had had a hip

Stephanie 1:00:30

Yes.

Dani 1:00:30

Thing done. And they found her metal hip finally. Mm-hmm. Like 20 years later.

Stephanie 1:00:33

Yeah.

Dani 1:00:34

And she was identified by that. I just feel like there wasn't any real effort here.

Stephanie 1:00:38

Yeah. It, and I feel like the body was too decomposed.'cause I mean everyone has birthmarks and freckles. You could, well

Dani 1:00:46

I think the burning really did a

Stephanie 1:00:47

number. Mm-hmm. Yeah.'cause they tried to burn and maybe they were successful in burning the smaller, like arm's head or more successful and then that made it easy to go dispose of that in the river or something.

Dani 1:01:01

Maybe she, maybe she cut off an arm and burned it and was like cool at. Maybe she cut off the other

Stephanie 1:01:07

and maybe she got tired and was like this cutting of the limbs is just throw the whole thing in there and then that didn't work.

Dani 1:01:13

There had to be drugs involved.

Stephanie 1:01:15

Drugs, yeah,

Dani 1:01:16

for sure.

Stephanie 1:01:17

She liked the Coca-Cola. I think she liked the cocaine pro possibly as well.

Dani 1:01:23

Dr. Delbert Scott. Love that. Dr. Delbert

Stephanie 1:01:26

Delbert,

Dani 1:01:27

who performed the autopsy, testified that the body had suffered six stab wounds to the abdomen. She really likes going for the gut, doesn't she?

Stephanie 1:01:36

Yeah, and that's scary. Like just picturing being stabbed six times, even once, but that

Dani 1:01:43

those wounds likely did not cause death. He had to be in some state of, maybe he really did take those sleeping pills.

Stephanie 1:01:58

And was trying to run on some adrenaline, but also being very inebriated, like drinking a bunch, plus sleeping pills is like mini coma.

Dani 1:02:08

Right. I just dunno how she would be able to stab a man.

Stephanie 1:02:12

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:02:12

Me as a woman, I don't know how I would get away with stabbing a man. You've

Stephanie 1:02:15

gotta be so close

Dani 1:02:16

six times in the stomach and not have that

Stephanie 1:02:19

get knocked out in

Dani 1:02:20

the head. Locked, have a response.

Stephanie 1:02:22

Yeah.

Dani 1:02:23

I might get away with it once sneaking and run maybe twice if they're sleeping or like super, like quick about it, like ninja skills, which I do not have. But six times there had to been something going on, right? Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 1:02:38

Yeah.

Dani 1:02:38

Okay. Okay. Uh, but those wounds to the abdomen likely did not cause his death. He said gunshot wounds to the neck, decapitation or a slit throat could have been fatal. So we're saying it's not the stabs to the stomach

Stephanie 1:02:55

that killed him. It's not many stabs. No.

Dani 1:02:56

Something happened with the head

Stephanie 1:02:59

and it again leads you to think back on the scene. The stabs probably happened first. Why would they happen after someone was already dead? And so then you're saying, oh, oh, that didn't work. Right. So you're just wondering the time that passes, you know, someone trying to help themselves because they're stabbed, and the thought process that you're going through of not being able to be like, oh, let's see. Yeah, maybe, maybe you need to get you to the hospital instead of like, oh, now I gotta kill you.

Dani 1:03:38

Maybe Scott testified that insect activity indicated the body had been exposed outdoors for several hours before the discovery, but that the victim had been dead for several days.

Stephanie 1:03:51

So where was this body before? It was underneath a door On the side of the road is what I want to know.

Dani 1:03:59

Same si. Because of decomposition and the burning. He said some identifying features could not be examined.

Stephanie 1:04:07

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:04:08

Other experts addressed identification because this is huge. They pulled in.

Stephanie 1:04:12

They pulled

Dani 1:04:13

out all

Stephanie 1:04:13

stops.

Dani 1:04:13

If you go back to the preliminary hearing. The defense was like, it's not even, it's not even her husband. Like what?

Stephanie 1:04:20

Who's to say?

Dani 1:04:21

Who's to say who that is?

Stephanie 1:04:22

They don't have a head, which again, I will say, I know I talked a lot of shit, but in the seventies, cutting off head and hands. I mean, shoot. Went for the full arm, not just the hands. Maybe he had some type of identifying feature, but no DNA. No dental records, no fingerprints.

Dani 1:04:45

Note to self really? Probably should have a tattoo on every part of part of my body.

Stephanie 1:04:51

Every extremity. Get a tattoo

Dani 1:04:54

appendage. Let's go. Can you imagine?

Stephanie 1:04:56

Sprinkle'em on like a fucking Chipotle bag wrapper. I love those type of, I think they're cute.

Dani 1:05:01

Yeah. Let's go.

Stephanie 1:05:03

Maybe that'll be our new goal.

Dani 1:05:04

Okay.

Stephanie 1:05:05

Little mini tats everywhere.

Dani 1:05:07

Yeah. Who's in, are you guys in? Let's go just in case I accidentally. Can you imagine walking into a tattoo shop? Listen, this is my plan. It's kind of a long term, but short term plan, it's gonna be lots of visits, but I wanna do it in the short term because I need a tattoo. All of my appendages, extremities, everything, just in case I get murdered

Stephanie 1:05:29

in December, I need 16 to 24 quarter sized tattoos. Can you help me?

Dani 1:05:33

Thank you. And I want it very well documented. Okay. I mean, I'm gonna put it in the cloud, but will you put it in the cloud too? Okay.

Stephanie 1:05:40

I'm in the cloud. You're in the cloud. I'm gonna post it on my Facebook

Dani 1:05:43

just in case somebody forgets my password that I give in my murder book. There's one uh, podcast that says you should have a murder book or a disappearance book. So just in case.

Stephanie 1:05:54

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:05:55

That gets missing. I need somebody else to have access to these pictures in the cloud.

Stephanie 1:05:59

I mean, we could take it to 16 different QR codes where it goes to the tattoo artist or it goes to your Facebook and the tattoo artist.

Dani 1:06:07

Actually, you don't even to, let's just do QR codes. Okay. It goes straight to make your whole body QR codes. It goes straight to my, either my TikTok, my Facebook, my Insta, it

Stephanie 1:06:18

goes to like one of our weirdest tiktoks and they're like, what the fuck is this? Who are these girls? Like, this isn't really helpful, but I'll give it a like,

Dani 1:06:31

other experts addressed identification. A radiologist testified that x-rays revealed possible bullet fragments in the neck, but they could not establish I'm identity. I'm just loving, we're getting radiology. Mm-hmm. There's lots of experts. They're

Stephanie 1:06:47

trying,

Dani 1:06:48

prosecution is prosecuting

Stephanie 1:06:51

love.

Dani 1:06:51

They're getting all their experts, which I love because this is back in the day, this is in the seventies

Stephanie 1:06:56

when you're like, you, if you don't have this one thing, then you can't prove. And it's like, yes, you can. Circumstantial cases are iffy sometimes, but when there's 32 pieces of evidence. Where it's like any human couldn't reasonably be like, this isn't just an unlucky winky dink that you bought a silencer and a gun and it's the exact, you know, caliber and you were spotted on camera and you bought, you know, a book on how to do a murder and not get caught. Like the, there every single winky dink cannot be all of'em together, make a case. I love those ones.

Dani 1:07:39

Speaking of experts, an anthropologist, ooh, testified that the remains of those were of a white male in his early to mid thirties, approximately five feet, eight inches to five feet, 10 inches tall, and weighing between 165 and 175 pounds.

Stephanie 1:07:59

So they're. they're shortening the range of people where it could be anyone. Well, not really. It couldn't just be anyone.

Dani 1:08:07

It couldn't be you or me.

Stephanie 1:08:08

No, it's not us.

Dani 1:08:11

measurements that prosecutors said were consistent with Ronald needs.

Stephanie 1:08:16

Again, another winky dink, but with all of the other evidence, very relevant

Dani 1:08:23

witnesses, then placed Sally needs near the scene. Here we go. Jim County Deputy Ron Roman testified about three hours after the body was discovered that he had encountered needs driving that motor home.

Stephanie 1:08:36

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:08:37

On a dirt road near the recovery site. He said she told him she had pulled off the highway to have a coke

Stephanie 1:08:47

as one does, you just need an ice cold coke sometimes, and you're driving on the highway and dirt roads. And with everything you've told me, Danny, it sounds like. This gal was just rooting, tooting along with her big ass steering wheel, driving in circles around the area, not knowing what to do, and I bet drugs, drugs and the body in there, like

1:09:13

flopping

Stephanie 1:09:14

around looking for a good place. Right off Highway 16, she's like, fuck, this is taking way too long. Here's a door perfect. No one's gonna know who looks under a door on a dirt road. And then our little farmer friend is like, that door was not there,

Dani 1:09:34

and it could have been there maybe another 30 or 40 feet off the road behind some sagebrush.

Stephanie 1:09:38

Hello.

Dani 1:09:39

But you know, Sally needs needed. Dude, you would've been better to get a fucking canvas. And listen, honey, you, you've done the escaping

Stephanie 1:09:53

thing before. Why didn't you drive straight to Mexico? In 76, you could have been on a beach as in the sand. Well, and

Dani 1:10:02

you wouldn't even have to

Stephanie 1:10:03

look Money Saver did not

Dani 1:10:06

even have to pay for hotel rooms. Home on Wheels,

Stephanie 1:10:09

van Life back in the seven. You could have been the originator.

Dani 1:10:14

I bet you it was a really nice rig for 74 being 14 pounds.

Stephanie 1:10:18

Oh fuck. Brand new.

Dani 1:10:20

Mm-hmm. No pop outs though.'cause this was 74.

Stephanie 1:10:23

No, no, no, they're not doing that,

Dani 1:10:24

but, but you know what? I bet

Stephanie 1:10:25

State of the art.

Dani 1:10:26

I bet you it had a two burner stove top and probably a little propane fridge inside.

Stephanie 1:10:32

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:10:32

Yeah, for sure.

Stephanie 1:10:34

No, I'm sure it was nice. And

Dani 1:10:36

that's why Dan, Dan, we will wanted that fucking, he said, this is a top of the line rig. We can clean up the blood, we could resell the shit. There's no bullet holes or nothing in it.

Stephanie 1:10:46

Fuck, there's no body parts. What's in, what's in the tank. Did you guys clear the tanks? Because Gray

Dani 1:10:51

water,

Stephanie 1:10:51

I wondered that with him. I think he probably was. That's where you put someone is in a tub. There's liquids that are happening.

Dani 1:10:58

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:11:00

I Did they even think to check the tank?

Dani 1:11:04

I, I'm gonna be optimistic and say yes. I mean, eventually that vehicle had to go somewhere, so. Mm-hmm. Um, but,

Stephanie 1:11:13

but especially since there wasn't DNA, it's like, what

Dani 1:11:15

will, they didn't check the drains in the, the seventies. What

Stephanie 1:11:17

will we, what will we find Bo bodily matter of some type that we can't prove is whoever's,

Dani 1:11:26

well listen, they're not checking now. They check sinks and stuff because they can identify DNA that way.

Stephanie 1:11:33

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:11:34

Back in the day, they're like, what good would be to find blood in a you, you

Stephanie 1:11:37

don't know whose it is. Someone's on their period.

Dani 1:11:40

Exactly. Or they cut themselves shaving or they had a nose bleed,

Stephanie 1:11:45

A little accident in the bathroom even. Yeah. Who knows?

Dani 1:11:48

So they're not looking for blood and drains Tell the fucking DNA came around, right?

Stephanie 1:11:52

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:11:53

Yeah. I do believe that. I could be wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong,

Stephanie 1:11:57

but I bet you had this happened today, that Tank would've told a story.

Dani 1:12:01

Oh, fuck yeah.

Stephanie 1:12:02

Everything.

Dani 1:12:03

Yeah. And I bet you she didn't even anyways, bitch not be emptying the tank.

Stephanie 1:12:08

Oh no.

Dani 1:12:09

Yeah, because there were, why would you? Mm-hmm. Uh, deputy Roman said he found that, that have a coke stop. Unusual because of the terrain in the location. Because she's driving a 24 foot fucking listen sis, we've all done it. We have all been in a place up in the woods and we're like, um, went a little

Stephanie 1:12:35

too far.

Dani 1:12:36

Why is that? 38 foot, fifth wheel.

Stephanie 1:12:40

Yeah.

Dani 1:12:41

Up here. Who the fuck's crazy husband thought.

Stephanie 1:12:47

You're on a trail that's like meant for four wheelers. That's that wide. Yeah. And you've got a fucking rv Yeah. Tour bus up there.

Dani 1:12:54

Exactly.

Stephanie 1:12:54

Hello?

Dani 1:12:55

Like this is really kind of a tenting, maybe a little popup camper. Maybe like a 12, 16 foot, those cute little ones

Stephanie 1:13:01

there.

Dani 1:13:02

The little teardrops.

Stephanie 1:13:03

Sure, sure. Not the Post Malone

Dani 1:13:06

tour bus. No.

Stephanie 1:13:07

That he's taking

Dani 1:13:08

it with the pop outs. It has like fucking five pop outs and, and,

Stephanie 1:13:11

and, and like a deck on the top and,

Dani 1:13:13

and the star link going on. You're like, dude, this is not the time or the place.

Stephanie 1:13:18

Go to a resort. There's plenty of places that are built just for you.

Dani 1:13:21

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:13:22

Not in, in the boonie. And people fuck up their trailers doing that or tumble in. I know this isn't just Idaho. I can't tell you how many of these types of roads that are mountain on one side sheer drop off on the other

Dani 1:13:38

sheer,

Stephanie 1:13:40

you're, you're tumbling and it, there's

Dani 1:13:42

no barriers either.

Stephanie 1:13:43

Guardrails. We don't know her.

Dani 1:13:45

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 1:13:46

No, it's'cause it's a trail that's made for four wheelers with a four foot wheel base. And they're like, I can take it, I can do it. No you can't. Even up at Hazard Creek,

Dani 1:13:59

we have went up there and um,

Stephanie 1:14:02

I saw some vehicles

Dani 1:14:04

and I'm like, we stop and park in a place where it's still, I mean it's, we're in a big truck. We'll pull our, our four wheeler up there and we'll get off.'cause we're like, this is really no more truck. Right. Truck. We should really truck. We should really just take the four wheeler. And we go up there and there's fucking trucks up there. I, I told Jared, I said,

Stephanie 1:14:26

where there's like a big ass Escalade.

Dani 1:14:28

Yeah. I'm like,

Stephanie 1:14:28

big body bitch.

Dani 1:14:30

I'm like, uh, just so you know, I would not, I would walk before I drove in the truck on these hills with you. And he is like, no, same. That's why we're on a four-wheeler.

Stephanie 1:14:41

Yeah, we're not doing that because it's not appropriate anyway,

Dani 1:14:45

so not

Stephanie 1:14:46

driving for conditions.

Dani 1:14:49

Hairpin turn.

Stephanie 1:14:50

Hello. In a tour bus, it cannot make a hairpin turn. It's not like one of the buses you see in a downtown area that has the accordion fold. You don't have that.

Dani 1:15:02

No,

Stephanie 1:15:02

you're not making that turn.

Dani 1:15:04

And also you can get on for particular Hazard Creek, when you go up there far enough, there are literal boulders

Stephanie 1:15:11

in the road.

Dani 1:15:12

In the road. They're sticking up like two feet. I am not tearing. No, you can go around them.

Stephanie 1:15:17

Your shocks do not have the capacity for that.

Dani 1:15:19

You're gonna rip off your oil pan,

Stephanie 1:15:22

you're going to dislodge your entire axle.

Dani 1:15:25

Like I actually, there's been idiots that done that. Anyways, so Deputy Reman, I

Stephanie 1:15:30

digress, but yes,

Dani 1:15:31

yes. It was like, uh.

Stephanie 1:15:34

They should. She shouldn't have be. Sally was driving crazy.

Dani 1:15:36

This 24 foot motor home had no business being here, and I found it kind of hot, so I went to talk to her. Meanwhile, we just found a dead body up the road

Stephanie 1:15:45

and she said She's just having a coke,

Dani 1:15:47

just all soda on parch.

Stephanie 1:15:49

That's one does.

Dani 1:15:50

You can't drive and drink a soda. What the fuck is wrong with

Stephanie 1:15:52

you? Whoops. He ended up in a ditch, Sally,

Dani 1:15:59

he testified that after he returned to Highway 16, he waited

Stephanie 1:16:05

outta curiosity, is she gonna get outta here or what?

Dani 1:16:09

Never came.

Stephanie 1:16:11

I feel, I still feel she was driving in circles, possibly crack headedly or possibly panicking or either trying to find a place to put the body or trying to find a place to maybe hide and build a better alibi of. I've been here for two weeks.

Dani 1:16:28

She is fucking up her alibi.

Stephanie 1:16:30

Yeah,

Dani 1:16:30

hard. Yeah, she's fallen over that alibi.

Stephanie 1:16:34

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:16:35

So, uh, Marlene was sober, testified

Stephanie 1:16:39

mm-hmm.

Dani 1:16:39

That the day before the body was found, she encountered the motor home, stuck in a ditch near the same area. Why are you hanging out? She's not, she's not getting it. She identified the driver as Sally needs, but said the woman told her that her name was Karen and that she and her husband had taken separate vacations.

Stephanie 1:17:00

That's not normal. Now that was especially not normal then. Wouldn't that just cause you more suspicion than anything? Hi, I am in a ditch. Me and my husband are on separate vacations, so isn't here.

Dani 1:17:16

Okay. Thanks for,

Stephanie 1:17:17

you could just say, I was taking the RV out by myself. He couldn't, his work got crazy at the last minute. He couldn't come and I decided to try to. We're, we're gonna

Dani 1:17:27

meet our friends and so I'm gonna go ahead and go.

Stephanie 1:17:31

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:17:31

So

Stephanie 1:17:32

many better excuses. That's just so suspicious.

Dani 1:17:35

Well, I'm assuming back in the seventies like that, you know, they're like, where's your husband miss? You shouldn't be driving this instead of bad bossing it. Mm-hmm. And being like, no, this is my vehicle. She's like, oh, well, silly me.

Stephanie 1:17:54

And I love it, like the, the memes and stuff of like girls hitting curbs and being like,

Dani 1:17:59

oh, just a girly pop day.

Stephanie 1:18:01

Just dis dislodged my whole alignment because listen, in my younger years I did that. I consider myself a very good driver now, but I had a few abrupt meetings with a curb.

Dani 1:18:15

I just did that a few fucking weeks ago.

Stephanie 1:18:17

God dammit. No. And you're just like, well, still, it's all fairness. Is she still running? Am I still driving?

Dani 1:18:23

Yes,

Stephanie 1:18:23

we're moving on.

Dani 1:18:25

In all fairness, it was one of those weird short curbs that they had back in the, like a landscaping curb in a parking lot of a restaurant. Mm.

Stephanie 1:18:34

Yep. What, why are they doing that?

Dani 1:18:36

Stop? And I didn't even, it was kind of a tight thing Anyways. Car's fine. I'm fine.

Stephanie 1:18:43

It's a girly thing. You hit a curb sometimes.

Dani 1:18:47

I was pissed. I actually drove over the front.

Stephanie 1:18:49

We're not doing vehicular manslaughter. We hit a curb every once in a while. Okay.

Dani 1:18:52

And I'm surely not driving a 20 foot motor home into a ditch, drinking my coke,

Stephanie 1:18:59

drinking my coke. Something was happening here.

Dani 1:19:04

Uh, so Westover testified that her husband pulled a motor home from the ditch with a tractor, and that needs drove away. Look, if that body was in the, I bet she, look,

Stephanie 1:19:16

I'd be shitting bricks

Dani 1:19:18

and you know what a lot of, and I am one of these people, if I am, if I get my vehicle stuck, I will let a perfect stranger get into my car because

Stephanie 1:19:27

you can get me out

Dani 1:19:29

if look, he probably was not driving a tractor, right? No. Miss had to go home and get her husband or they were driving together and had to go get, you know, but a, a lot of people just try to uns

Stephanie 1:19:43

unstick it

Dani 1:19:43

first. So, hey, let me have a hand on that because it does matter how you twist. Mm-hmm. And turn

Stephanie 1:19:49

or rock the vehicle.

Dani 1:19:50

Right. So before I travel a couple miles and go get my tractor, which is gonna go five miles an hour to get up here.

Stephanie 1:19:57

Yeah.

Dani 1:19:57

Let me give it a stab. Let me see if I can get this pretty, pretty 24 foot brand new motor home.

Stephanie 1:20:03

And there's a good chance

Dani 1:20:05

they coulda

Stephanie 1:20:06

and that there's also maybe. A body in that teeny tiny little tub.

Dani 1:20:12

Yeah. Eek. Oh, I wanna know. And I, we don't, we won't know.

Stephanie 1:20:18

We'll never know.

Dani 1:20:19

This is all, yeah. Uh, Westover said that that motor home later turned onto a dirt, dirt road leading toward the area where the body was found. So she watched her, her husband pulled, pulled, Sally needs out, and then she just cruised on towards Cru,

Stephanie 1:20:35

like she was in circles

Dani 1:20:37

around the crime scene, the panic scene that could have been the panic. The body in the car gotta

Stephanie 1:20:40

find somewhere.

Dani 1:20:41

And she might've been just hacking at a time, and

Stephanie 1:20:44

it sounds like she gave up and was like, I gotta get, I gotta put this somewhere. Here's a door.

Dani 1:20:52

The state introduced physical evidence from the motor home. A criminologist testified blood found on the metal step of the vehicle, matched blood found on the torso, and the sheet in which it was wrapped. He said, additional blood was found on a towel and a shower curtain. You nailed it, sis, and appeared to have been diluted with water. Little cleanup, cleanup,

Stephanie 1:21:14

everybody, everywhere.

Dani 1:21:16

Oh my gosh. Under cross-examination, the expert acknowledged that a percentage of the population shared the same blood type and enzyme markers because this is the seventies and we don't have DNA. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 1:21:28

So now it couldn't be anyone, but it could be this specific group of people. It's a KY dink. It can't be proven. And it's, again, 17 coincidences don't happen when someone's murdered. It just, it, it listen and prove me wrong. Maybe there's a story out there where it's like, gosh, this poor guy, there was all these clunky dinks that weren't related. I don't know. But no, a circumstantial case together, I think is solid

Dani 1:22:03

matches near the body. Were also examined. Expert testimony indicated that the size and composition of the matches were consistent with matches found in the motor home and that they had appeared to have been manufactured at the same time or at the same plant. Here were defense in, defense counsel questioned the significance of that evidence, noting the large number of matches produced by manufacturers.

Stephanie 1:22:31

Anyone can be lighting matches anywhere.

Dani 1:22:34

By the way, Hey Sally, fucking amateur with the matches. Yeah. So I can barely let a candle sometimes with a match. Why

Stephanie 1:22:44

are they there? Yeah. Burnt body plus matchsticks at the, the

Dani 1:22:48

scene. Do you know what I heard? That would be to burn a body with matchsticks. That's what I'm saying. That's just do you gotta lie, you got a zippo.

Stephanie 1:22:55

No, and it's, especially back then, there'd be no way to know how. Incredibly difficult it is to do this. You just think,

Dani 1:23:03

I'm just throwing a little gas on here.

Stephanie 1:23:04

Just like cooking a steak.

Dani 1:23:05

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:23:06

I cooked a steak too long once and it became cremated. What's a body? A lot different. A

Dani 1:23:13

lot.

Stephanie 1:23:13

A lot.

Dani 1:23:15

As a state continued presenting witnesses, prosecutors said the evidence would show a pattern of behavior and movements tying needs to the area where her husband's body was found and would establish that the torso discovered in the foothills was that of Ronald needs medical experts return to the question of cause of death and identification. Dr. Delbert testified that the six stab wounds did not cause death. Um, and he said that UNH fly eggs found on the body indicated that the remains had been outdoors for about six to 14 hours.

Stephanie 1:23:55

So not days, which is when he died,

Dani 1:23:58

right? But that the death had occurred several days earlier, uh, due to decomposition. He said he could not examine the lungs for signs of asthma. A condition Ronald needs was known to have.

Stephanie 1:24:11

They tried,

Dani 1:24:12

they did try.

Stephanie 1:24:13

Remember we were talking about some type of thing they could verify with a doctor that sucks.

Dani 1:24:18

Dr. Clyde snow and anthropologist specializing and skeletal identification testified that the analysis is. Analysis of the bones indicated the victim was a white male, uh, between 30 and 36 years old, which is again consistent.

Stephanie 1:24:36

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:24:36

With Ronald means. The state also presented testimony regarding injuries to the victim's feet. A pathologist testified that examination of the torso's big toes revealed scarring on the bottoms of both with more pronounced scarring on the left. Ronald's needs former wife testified that he had scars on both big toes, including a childhood injury to the left toe that damaged the tendon and restricted movement, and a later injury to the right toe that required medical treatment. A physician testified that he had treated Ronald needs for a laceration to his right foot in 1969,

Stephanie 1:25:20

and this is the best you can hope for. Yeah. At the time is some type of documented thing. To show a scar or a disfigurement or a fracture line, something

Dani 1:25:32

so we're not talking tattoos all over the body, but there is something.

Stephanie 1:25:37

Maybe just break each one of your fingers. Just kidding.

Dani 1:25:40

Tattoos and QR codes sound way better.

Stephanie 1:25:43

Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna hairline fracture on each one of my fingers. Forearms, upper arms, calves. Just a, just a tiny hairline fracture on each. That can be x-rayed. And

Dani 1:25:56

can you just put a screw inside of a bone for identifying marker. Gimme

Stephanie 1:26:00

17 different screws. Let's do that.

Dani 1:26:03

Testimony then addressed events leading up to Ronald's disappearance. A witness testified that in mid-June of 1976, he observed an argument at the couple's residence in peed in which Sally needs emerged from the house throwing bottles. They haven't been barely married and then returned with a butcher knife in each hand. Two

Stephanie 1:26:25

butcher knives,

Dani 1:26:26

making motions as if she were going to stab her husband, saying, I'm going to get you

Stephanie 1:26:33

re

Dani 1:26:35

the witness said Ronald Russell, the knives away. And that Sally needs later threw gasoline on him, getting some in his eyes. So let's go back to the part where the stabbing in the stomach, he was able to wrestle two butcher knives from her.

Stephanie 1:26:49

And I'm not wrestling a knife from nobody.

Dani 1:26:52

Right. So he had to be and

Stephanie 1:26:54

he did that.

Dani 1:26:55

Yeah. So

Stephanie 1:26:56

he had to be sleeping.

Dani 1:26:57

Mm-hmm. Or

Stephanie 1:26:58

where the sleeping pills come from is now what I am thinking.

Dani 1:27:01

Yeah. Did you crush them up and drop him in a coke?

Stephanie 1:27:05

In a little cocktail?

Dani 1:27:07

Another witness testified about a week later, she overheard Sally say, if I can't have him, nobody will have him. I will kill him First quotes. Uh oh. Okay. The defense presented limited testimony. I'm focused on challenging the identity of the remains and the location of the crime. They're

Stephanie 1:27:30

still holding onto that.

Dani 1:27:32

Let it go, bro.

Stephanie 1:27:33

We don't know who it is.

Dani 1:27:33

Did you not see all of the experts?

Stephanie 1:27:37

Yeah, they exported for sure.

Dani 1:27:39

Defense counsel emphasized that the head and arms hadn't been recovered. We know this and that. Some measurements of the torso did not precisely match Ronald's needs height, and there was no direct evidence showing where the killing occurred.

Stephanie 1:27:56

Who. In the world has a direct measurement of all of the different measurements. The torso precise. I'm not talking like a chest, waist, hips measurement. I'm talking how long from the nipple to the belly button. Yeah. How long from the armpit to the nip?

Dani 1:28:16

Who?

Stephanie 1:28:16

How

Dani 1:28:16

long is his kneecaps?

Stephanie 1:28:18

Unless you are an athlete or an actor, actress, that's like going for a wax mold. Well, the nipple to collarbone ratio didn't seem to be exact. Nobody has that, bro. Shut up.

Dani 1:28:36

The defense argued that the circumstantial evidence left reasonable doubt as to whether the torso was Ronald needs and whether the crime had been committed in Ada County.

Stephanie 1:28:45

Could be anyone.

Dani 1:28:46

This is another big thing.

Stephanie 1:28:47

Oh, the county. Ooh, I didn't think about that. The jurisdiction?

Dani 1:28:53

Mm-hmm. Okay. After four days of testimony, the state and defense presented closing arguments. Prosecutor Leroy told the jury the evidence taken together showed that the torso found in the foothills was Ronald needs, and that Sally needs was responsible for his death. Defense attorney Ellison Matthews argued that the state's case relied on speculation and that reasonable doubt remained regarding both identity and venue.

Stephanie 1:29:21

And that's his job.

Dani 1:29:22

He's gonna die on this fucking hill.

Stephanie 1:29:23

Yeah,

Dani 1:29:24

and you know what? He's not what?

Stephanie 1:29:26

It's already been settled.

Dani 1:29:27

Yeah. The jury began deliberations Thursday evening. By the end of the night, no verdict had been reached and the jurors were instructed to return the following morning to continue their deliberations. Jurors had been instructed to consider only whether the state had proven the headless armless torso found in the Boise foothills was Ronald Kns, and that his death was at the result of a homicide. And that the crime had been committed in Ada County by his wife. And you know, the defense has been dying on that hill.

Stephanie 1:29:59

They should have leaned more into what county was it? Because nobody knows where this actually happened. If the defense should have leaned more on that than who's the body, in my opinion.

Dani 1:30:10

They returned to the, the jury returned to the courtroom Friday afternoon to deliver their verdict. The courtroom was failed. As the clerk prepared to read the verdict. Sally needs sat quietly at the defense table. Her hands trembling slightly as the jury foreman handed the verdict form to the to the clerk. The clerk read the verdict aloud, finding Sally needs guilty of first degree murder. A gasp from spectators seated in the courtroom as the words were spoken. A gasp who? Who gasped a gasp? I don't know. Uh, I don't know. It didn't say whether, and sometimes it does say my research,

Stephanie 1:30:49

like if it's the family or the mom or whatever.

Dani 1:30:52

Yeah. Nead shook her head slowly and then slumped back in her chair. This is such a surprise to me. Uh, I just, deputies moved to assist her as she fainted while being taken from the current room toward herself.

Stephanie 1:31:06

Hmm.

Dani 1:31:07

First degree says that's bad. Uh, she was later. This isn't a 10 year sentence where you're getting furloughs and shit.

Stephanie 1:31:17

This is the hard time.

Dani 1:31:19

Uh, yeah. She was later revived and taken to the Ada County Jail where she was

Stephanie 1:31:23

revived.

Dani 1:31:24

Yeah. Where she was held with bail, pending sentencing without bail, pending sentencing. Because we have seen motherfuckers get out on bail.

Stephanie 1:31:32

Yes. When they're per, when they're guilty. Should never happen,

Dani 1:31:37

ever. You have nothing to lose, especially with this kind of a sentence,

Stephanie 1:31:41

you know exactly what's coming to

Dani 1:31:42

you. Yeah. Jurors were individually pulled at the request of the court. Um,

Stephanie 1:31:47

normal.

Dani 1:31:48

Every jury responded. Yes. Judge Durey uh, addressed the courtroom after the polling, noting that because Idaho's mandatory death penalty statute had been ruled unconstitutional. This must have been right at that time

Stephanie 1:32:03

in the juicy spot. Yeah. Yeah.

Dani 1:32:05

The court would determine the appropriate sentence under other provisions of state law.

Stephanie 1:32:09

It's like, Hey, hey, hey. We got some weird stuff happening, so we're not gonna go that direction.

Dani 1:32:13

Yeah. And he's like, let's not even fuck with that. Sensing was scheduled for June 3rd, nearly a year after the body had been found outside the courtroom. Dumb defense attorney. Sorry, I shouldn't say that. He was doing That's what you have to do. You have to defense, but I just feel like he didn't pick his battles correctly.

Stephanie 1:32:33

No.

Dani 1:32:34

Uh, Matthew said, I don't think it was justified in view of the evidence. When asked whether he believed, he established reasonable doubt. He said, quote, I thought I had it, but obviously I didn't. That's what I'm

Stephanie 1:32:48

saying. That's more generous than most defense attorneys will do. Sometimes you hear these defense attorneys that, like on Dateline and stuff, they're asked a very, uh, they're asked a very reasonable question and their, their answer is just, do we have the same eyes? Like, do we have the same ears? Like you can still defend yourself and your client without being like, no, that was the perfect thing to say.

Dani 1:33:17

Ada County prosecutor David Leroy said after the verdict quote, I'd like to thank the jury for their careful consideration of a complicated set of facts,

Stephanie 1:33:25

especially then It sure was.

Dani 1:33:27

But he did say that Matthew did a very capable job of representing his client.

Stephanie 1:33:33

This is almost like after teams win the Super Bowl and even the loser or the winner is like my opponent gotta give props even if they maybe had a terrible showing. I'm not a sportsy person, but I know that that happens when, and it's nice, it's courteous. Yeah.

Dani 1:33:48

He's being courteous.

Stephanie 1:33:49

Mm-hmm. Not being like that dumb ass.

Dani 1:33:51

He went home, was like, fuck yeah, babe, I nailed that motherfucker to the wall. That dip shit. That's defense was horrible.

Stephanie 1:34:00

He's like, yeah, he presented a lot of intriguing facts. Surely he did

Dani 1:34:05

way to be profesh.

Stephanie 1:34:07

Yeah, I, I get the vibes here.

Dani 1:34:11

After the jury returned its guilty verdict, Sally needs was taken from the courtroom and held in that ADA County jail while the court prepared for sentencing fourth District Judge Dirt, she delayed the initial sentencing date telling attorneys he had not yet completed his review of the pre-sentence investigation report.

Stephanie 1:34:31

He's being extra careful given the sentencing weirdness.

Dani 1:34:34

Mm-hmm. I bet. Uh, I think so. Uh, the report, which includes needs criminal history. Mm-hmm. Personal background and institutional record was described in court as lengthy'cause it was

Stephanie 1:34:50

well, and not many people escape from prison twice

Dani 1:34:56

and then kill, Ugh. Again.

Stephanie 1:34:59

Yeah.

Dani 1:35:01

Um, at the sentencing hearing, ADA County prosecutor David Leroy urged the court to impose the maximum penalty allowed under state law. Leroy said the killing of Ronald Des was deliberate and premeditated. Yep. I don't know if it was premeditated, but it definitely was deliberate.

Stephanie 1:35:17

Yeah.

Dani 1:35:18

Well, I guess she didn't plan it in weeks. She's like, here's some sleeping pills. Maybe that's still premeditation. Mm-hmm. I need to keep that in mind. I'll get

Stephanie 1:35:24

ya. I'm

Dani 1:35:25

citing the matter in which the body had been mutilated and the steps taken to conceal its identity. Not that good, but still steps were taken. Good old door. Uh, he told the court the homicide was a horrible one and argued that a life sentence was necessary to protect the public. He also asked the court to recommend to the Idaho Commission of Pardons and Parole. That needs not be considered for early release. Citing her prior felony convictions and her history of escape.

Stephanie 1:35:55

Yeah, she was early releasing herself, so maybe that shouldn't be an option here.

Dani 1:36:02

a defense attorney Matthews argued that the court should impose a lesser sentence contending the case was built entirely on circumstantial evidence and that unresolved questions remained about the identity of the body and the location of the homicide. No sir. We have tow scars. Were you not in the courtroom when they talked about tow scars? I don't know. I don't have a bunch of tow scar. Do you have tow scar stuff?

Stephanie 1:36:26

I don't think I have one tow scar.

Dani 1:36:27

Okay.

Stephanie 1:36:28

I had some ingrown. Maybe they could find that that was a thing for me when I was a kid.

Dani 1:36:33

Right. But we're not scarring toes. I

Stephanie 1:36:35

mean, no, I don't have scars on the bottom of my big toes. I feel like that's from

Dani 1:36:39

stepping on a knife when you were a child?

Stephanie 1:36:40

No.

Dani 1:36:41

Okay. Just wanted to clear that up. Matthew said his client had lived much of her life in chaos. And here we go. She had been the victim of abuse beginning in childhood. also that she had struggled with alcohol and unstable relationships and that her past convictions were being overstated.

Stephanie 1:37:06

I don't think so.

Dani 1:37:07

Excuse me.

Stephanie 1:37:08

I think they were being stated and she got off Again, if you, you're able to escape a sentence like that, someone's dead. That that bar owner's dead.

Dani 1:37:19

Right.

Stephanie 1:37:19

You didn't get murder one. You didn't get 10 years. You

Dani 1:37:22

plea, you

Stephanie 1:37:22

got to escape. You got plead to manslaughter. You escaped, lived your life and they said, oh, five more months and you're done.

Dani 1:37:29

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 1:37:31

Start dotting your i's and crossing your fucking t's. Find a way to exist in society where

Dani 1:37:39

without killing men.

Stephanie 1:37:41

Thank you. Yeah.

Dani 1:37:43

Matthews also argued that because the court had ruled Idaho's death penalty statute unconstitutional, this must have happened right in the sweet spot. Mm-hmm. It did.

Stephanie 1:37:51

Oh yeah.

Dani 1:37:52

The maximum lawful sentence for first degree murder should be limited. Why, sir? They're latching

Stephanie 1:37:59

onto this because they know that the court is scared of fucking up because they have fucked up is what I feel.

Dani 1:38:05

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:38:06

He, he's like,

Dani 1:38:06

but you can still give a life sentence. Yeah. That's not under review. I feel like try. I feel like he's trying

Stephanie 1:38:12

to, yeah.

Dani 1:38:14

When they, they gotta try. When given an opportunity to speak needs stood before the court and told Judge Dirt, she, I do contend my innocence. She says she believed she had not been allowed to present an adequate defense until the court quote. I feel I truly am the only one who knows the whole story.

Stephanie 1:38:35

Yup.

Dani 1:38:36

We agree

Stephanie 1:38:37

alive. Sure. Yeah.

Dani 1:38:39

Needs objected two portions of the pre-sentence report, including statements attributed to her in which she was said to have threatened her husband. She told the judge such remarks, did not reflect her pre, did not reflect premeditation, and said, I made a bad choice of men. Ma'am, I promise you that if Ronald needs was a horrible person, as you are suggesting that it would've been brought up by your defense attorney because right then he could try to justify

Stephanie 1:39:19

something provable. Yeah. Ex-girlfriends,

Dani 1:39:21

uh, I did not hear, I, I did not find that in any of my research and, you know, newspapers can be selective, but I didn't hear anything negative about Ronald needs nothing. So Nice try. Nice try. And she's gotta try, right? Mm-hmm. Judge rejected the defense arguments and said the jury's verdict was properly reached.

Stephanie 1:39:48

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:39:49

He told the courtroom that imposing a lesser sentence would simply depreciate the seriousness

Stephanie 1:39:55

Yeah.

Dani 1:39:56

Of the offense.

Stephanie 1:39:57

You're setting a precedent.

Dani 1:39:58

The judge said the fatal wounds inflicted on Ronald's knees supported the jury's finding a premeditation. And that the evidence presented at trial was sufficient to sustain a conviction for first degree murder. He's like, no,

Stephanie 1:40:11

no, you're done.

Dani 1:40:12

You're done. Not only did you cut off arms and heads, but he was stabbed in the stomach and possibly shot decapitated,

Stephanie 1:40:18

shot,

Dani 1:40:20

slit his throat. You did something up there they would've been able to carry

Stephanie 1:40:23

now, and then you're just trucking around in your RV with a

Dani 1:40:26

fucking

Stephanie 1:40:26

body in

Dani 1:40:27

the back. Little soda pop. the judge sentenced. Sally needs to life in prison. He told her she would be in prison for the rest of your natural life. Needs stood with her hands clasped in her lap as the sentence was announced. She was then handcuffed and escorted from the courtroom by deputies and marshals. The court officials says she would be processed through the Idaho penitentiary before being transferred to an out-of-state women's prison because of her criminal record and experience in other institutions. Meaning the bitch is escaping.

Stephanie 1:41:03

Yeah. They're like, no, we need, we need the big guns on this one.

Dani 1:41:06

And mind you, she did not tunnel out of prison. This is not shocking,

Stephanie 1:41:10

but listen, the crimes of opportunity like this

Dani 1:41:14

mm-hmm.

Stephanie 1:41:15

They do take quite a bit of planning.

Dani 1:41:17

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 1:41:17

And motivate it. It could be spontaneous, but I bet that was not her first ride with that nurse. No. She was like, I could fucking do this.

Dani 1:41:27

And then she probably had to find somebody to find her a knife.

Stephanie 1:41:30

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:41:31

Those are not just, well, fuck in the sixties, maybe they were just handy dandy everywhere.

Stephanie 1:41:34

Preach razors. Hello.

Dani 1:41:37

That's true. That my bad. Following the sentencing, Matthew said the conviction would be appealed. We know. Prosecutor said the sentence was appropriate given the nature of the crime and her history. After sentencing questions immediately arose over how long Sally needs would be required to serve before becoming eligible for parole. Could we just let, I

Stephanie 1:42:04

thought we had life without parole, or did

Dani 1:42:06

we? No, just life

Stephanie 1:42:07

with, oh, okay.

Dani 1:42:09

Ada County Prosecutor Leroy said the life sentence imposed by the court met needs could not be considered for release for at least 10 years. Okay. The Idaho Commission of Pardons and Paroles took a different position pointing to conflicting language within the Idaho code governing parole eligibility for inmates serving life limits.

Stephanie 1:42:28

No surprise. It was a, it was a shit show. It was a cluster fuck. Thank you. We didn't, we did not have our ducks in a row, that's for sure.

Dani 1:42:35

Boise attorney, Sam Kauf, Sam Kaufman, chairman of the parole Commission, said that the statute allowed parole consideration after five years, or one third of the sentence, whichever was less five years. Coman said the revision requiring prisoners to serve 10 years before release conflicted with a later revision stating the commission could accept parole applications after five. This state was willy-nilly the whole fucking state.

Stephanie 1:43:01

We had different things that were conflicting other things, and that's no surprise to me. And so then of course they have something, it's reasonable to bring these things up.

Dani 1:43:12

So he said the provision requiring prisoners to serve 10 years before being released conflicted with the later revision, stating the commission could accept parole applications after five years. What's the difference? Kauffman said, adding that the commission was bound by the intent of the newer language Prosecutor. Leroy disagreed saying the revision addressed only when applications could be filed, not when release could occur. What a fuck. Get your word salad. Just say what you mean. The disagreement centered on two sentences within the same paragraph of the law. One which had never been removed when the statute was amended.

Stephanie 1:43:50

Whoopsie fucking idiots. This is the price that we pay because it was,

Dani 1:43:56

yeah, as a dispute Unfolded needs was transferred from Ada County jail to the Idaho Penitentiary. And then because of her prior convictions escape institutional history, she was sent to a prison outside of Idaho. She w ended up in, um. Alderson Federal Women's Prison in West Virginia.

Stephanie 1:44:21

Oh

Dani 1:44:21

damn. Which is so far away, to serve her life sentence

Stephanie 1:44:27

going to the West Virginia. Okay.

Dani 1:44:29

And of course then we have an appeal with Idaho Supreme Court. A the, her attorneys argued that the evidence presented at trial was insufficient to support the conviction for first degree murder. Dude, he didn't have a head. Yeah. the appeal challenge, the state's failure to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the headless armless torso found in the Boise foothills was that of Ronald needs,

Stephanie 1:44:53

but it's reasonable. So moving on,

Dani 1:44:55

and that the homicide occurred in Ada County, I would have everything banking on wrong venue if it was me.

Stephanie 1:45:02

Yeah. Because that's. You cannot. We had that on the one that went from like Washington to here. Yeah. There. And they couldn't prove where the death occurred.

1:45:11

Covers

Dani 1:45:11

the motorcycle gangs.

Stephanie 1:45:12

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Motor. Now that our episodes are all available, it's the one two part episode that we did. Motorcycle was 13

Dani 1:45:20

and 14.

Stephanie 1:45:21

Something like that.

Dani 1:45:22

Anyways, just if you guys don't know, I love that episode. Uh, we had a setting on our RSSV to only release, have 30 episodes current. Yeah. I

Stephanie 1:45:30

don't know why that's the default.

Dani 1:45:31

So for those of you that are newer listeners that haven't been here, day one, uh, episodes one through 20 are now available for you.

Stephanie 1:45:38

Yeah, they're there. So

Dani 1:45:40

go

Stephanie 1:45:40

listen. Just a, a quick click of a setting. Had no idea. Apologies.

Dani 1:45:48

within days of her transfer needs filed a notice of appeal with the Idaho Supreme Court through her attorney. She argued that the evidence presented at trial was insufficient to support a conviction for first degree murder. The appeal challenge the state's failure to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the headless armless torso found in the Boise foothills was that of Ronald Des, and that the homicide occurred in Ada County. They're gonna die on this hill. The defense also argued that extensive pretrial publicity had denied her a fair trial and that inflammatory evidence, including photographs and testimony about a prior knife incident, should not have been admitted.

Stephanie 1:46:30

Why are there so many knife incidents?

1:46:34

Like

Dani 1:46:34

what? Yeah. Says, come on in written briefs, defense attorneys said the prosecution had avoided directly establishing where the killing took place. Did they really though, or did we don't know because people be burning evidence.

Stephanie 1:46:49

Yeah.

Dani 1:46:50

and had relied on circumstantial evidence to bridge gaps in the case. Yes, they did. they contended the trial court aired by denying a change of venue they did and allowing the ver the jury to view graphic images of the remains. Look, I do think, and there's been some other cases we've done where yes, it could be too much, but they still have to present that evidence. They, they still need to show what the farmer,

Stephanie 1:47:18

what happened.

Dani 1:47:18

Yeah. What they saw. So, yeah, exactly. Prosecutors responded that the totality of the evidence was sufficient to support the verdict and that the trial had been conducted fairly, why the appeal moved forward. Parole authorities said needs could be eligible for consideration in fewer than five years because somebody didn't fucking fix their PDF. No, there was no PDF, but it wasn't fixed.

Stephanie 1:47:43

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:47:44

depending on how the statute was interpreted. So I just, nobody used whiteout prosecutor. Leroy requested a formal legal opinion to clarify the minimum time of a life Sentenced inmate

Stephanie 1:48:00

mm-hmm.

Dani 1:48:00

Must serve before parole eligibility. Five years is too little if you're getting a whole, fucking lifetime.

Stephanie 1:48:07

Yeah.

Dani 1:48:08

but the issue remained unresolved as needs began serving her sentence in federal custody. Alright. The Idaho Supreme Court heard oral arguments on Sally needs a appeal in December of 1978. Her attorneys argued everything that we've talked about. Was it done in Ada County? Was it the, was it really Ronald? Um,

Stephanie 1:48:35

I feel like they should have leaned more on the county stuff.

Dani 1:48:38

I really should. but they said the state attorneys responded that taken as a whole supported the jury's verdict. They argued that the body had been discovered inside Ada County and that physical evidence recovered from the scene and from the motor home tied the remains to Ronald needs. And this is all just minute.

Stephanie 1:48:59

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:48:59

Stuff.

Stephanie 1:49:00

We're splitting hairs.

Dani 1:49:01

Yes. Trial court acted within its discretion and that the jury had been properly instructed on how to waste circumstantial evidence, which is huge.

Stephanie 1:49:09

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:49:10

February, 1979, the Idaho Supreme Court issued a unanimous decision, upholding the conviction, writing for the court. Justice Charles Donaldson said the evidence was sufficient to allow the jury to conclude the homicide occurred in Ada County Fair and that the body was that of Ronald Deeds, and I'm pretty sure there's just not a lot of missing men out there.

Stephanie 1:49:35

Yeah, with that same height, weight, race,

Dani 1:49:38

injured toes, scarred toes, The court rejected the pretrial publicity had denied deans a fair trial. the court also upheld the admission of evidence challenged by the defense, and ruled that the trial court did not abuse its discretion in denying a change of venue,

Stephanie 1:49:55

which that's in my opinion, a tough one to even say of did the venue affect. How do you quantify? That's,

Dani 1:50:05

and it's, but it's the easiest one.

Stephanie 1:50:07

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:50:08

To be like, we can make this happen. Yeah. Yeah. With a conviction, affirmed needs remained incarcerated under a life sentence. She served time in several institutions, including federal facilities outside of Idaho. Before eventually returning to the state prison system.

Stephanie 1:50:24

Oh,

Dani 1:50:25

over the years she repeatedly sought parole. In 1982, the Idaho Commission of Pardons and Parole denied her request for release the commission again, rejected her bid for parole in 1992, citing the severity of the crime and her institutional record, and set her next hearing years later, In January, 1997, prison officials found her hanging in her cell at the Pocatello Women's Prison.

Stephanie 1:50:55

Oh no.

Dani 1:50:56

Officers cut her down and attempted to revive her before she was transported to Ock Regional Medical Center. She was placed on life support and critical condition. Three days later, after consultation with family and medical staff, life support was withdrawn. Sally needs died on January 12th, 1997 at the age of 52.

Stephanie 1:51:21

Yeah, 52. And look, hanging yourself. That's awful, right?

Dani 1:51:29

We don't want anybody doing that, but

Stephanie 1:51:31

no, it seems like there was some problems deep seated, you know? And what her defense attorney said, she had a rough childhood. It makes for adults that don't have good coping mechanisms and then go on to do really terrible, awful shit. So

Dani 1:51:49

including cutting the head and arms off of

Stephanie 1:51:52

her dismembering

Dani 1:51:53

husband of one month, a human body, any. I would struggle to do that with a deer that I was going to eat. That's why I don't, I don't do that. No, don't participate. No,

Stephanie 1:52:06

Rick. One time the boys went hunting and they can get, you know, the prong horn, like barely have horns. Right. And they had skinned and gutted it in the field and brought it back. It was the exact same looking size and body style as my old Doberman.'cause he was a very big doberman, like tall. Mm-hmm. And big. And it was a very tiny deer, and just like the, it looked like my dog skinned. I, I couldn't, I couldn't separate it. I couldn't, it's just not for me. Yeah. And so dismembering a human body that's very, it takes

Dani 1:52:45

something special to be able to do that.

Stephanie 1:52:47

Yeah.

Dani 1:52:48

I don't think most people could do that. I, I just don't. Mm-hmm. I'd like to believe in humanity. I mean, I just don't think, and, you know. I also kind of, I wonder, I ponder the thought that if you've murdered before and I'll, and I, I'm not going to in a lighter way. Right. Not that

Stephanie 1:53:09

you can maybe excuse

Dani 1:53:13

shooting somebody in the stomach is still murder. But it's not as heinous as some of the crimes we've seen. I wonder if that lends itself to be able just to be able to be more gruesome the next time. You know what

Stephanie 1:53:23

I'm saying? Or you might think, I've already crossed that bridge.

Dani 1:53:27

I'm already here.

Stephanie 1:53:28

Let's go. So orally you might think to yourself or already going, if you believe in heaven or hell, or I'm already a bad person, and so then you're like. It. There's not as much of a moral, like pullback, pushback, internally. Interesting stuff needs, why you be out

Dani 1:53:52

there? Crazy. We have another woman, fucking beheading people. Don't love it. Not a fan, but I was very the, I was like, oh, and she was already convicted.

Stephanie 1:54:04

Mm-hmm.

Dani 1:54:04

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:54:05

So, and I love that. If this crime were to happen today, it's a hundred percent. How messy that type of crime is. You're never getting away with it.

Dani 1:54:13

Never

Stephanie 1:54:14

ever they're gonna find a speck of blood on the inside of your collar or your DNA under a fingernail or mm-hmm. The knife, or you're gonna cut yourself. Usually in stabbings, people do cut themselves, so I wonder if they even were taking pictures of her hand. I

Dani 1:54:31

kind of feel like probably not,

Stephanie 1:54:33

and maybe she was like, I was hiking. You know? Even if they did say, oh, what's that?

Dani 1:54:37

I was actually on the side of the road drinking my bottle of Coca-Cola and I dropped,

Stephanie 1:54:42

dropped it

Dani 1:54:43

not, and then I fell and I slipped. Ow I slipped my hands up so bad. You would not even imagine.

Stephanie 1:54:50

Everyone does that when they're having a nice cold coke on a sloped, you know, place. They're standing and they fall on it and it slices you a little bit. Can a gal have a Coke? Jesus. Wow. A very strange one, Danny. I do have to say not, not your typical, you know, I mean, even just a woman with two murders. Very rare, very unique. But thank you.'cause that was a good one. Thanks. like, follow, subscribe. Got a new TikTok out, as you heard with Danny. If you haven't been here from the beginning, there's 20 episodes. With a little bit maybe questionable audio quality that are out for you. Sorry about that. So sorry. But we were doing the best we could and yeah, thanks for following.

Dani 1:55:39

We, I'm just gonna say we're not sound engineers

Stephanie 1:55:42

and we try the amount of research and time, the effort

Dani 1:55:46

was made. We were effort team. But

Stephanie 1:55:48

how, how many different sets of cords did you have to buy just to make the audio?

1:55:52

I

Dani 1:55:52

know you wanna, one day I'll go count'em.'cause I still. We've

Stephanie 1:55:55

just got random cords that we'll never use for anything

Dani 1:55:57

else. You open that package, you own it. Mm-hmm. So I'm

Stephanie 1:56:00

not returning that.

Dani 1:56:02

No. Got adapters, all kinds of shit anyways. Doing the best we can with what we got. we've come a long way. I'm sure we will continue to grow, and learn from our mistakes. Yes, they're out there. So, we didn't realize we had a bad setting, so. If you're new to our podcast in the last, you know, 20, 30 episodes, we dropped a bunch for you to binge.

Stephanie 1:56:21

Yeah. And you know what, if you're a connoisseur of podcasts, we do like feedback. I mean, of course, be kind. But if, if you notice something where you're like, wow, you really grew here, or Hey, this might be something you wanna continue to work on,

Dani 1:56:37

we're here, we're open,

Stephanie 1:56:38

we are here. The lethal library@gmail.com. We're open to hearing it. But anyway, it's been, it's been good. It's been fun. It's been great, Danny. It's been a day. It's been a day. We'll talk about that another time. Ten four rubber ducky. Fuck yeah.