61. A Relationship Beyond Repair: The Ciccone Case Unraveled

Dani and Stephanie detail a Mountain Home–area case that starts with a young Air Force couple trying to “do the right thing” with counseling… and ends in a rural roadside tragedy that shocks a community. What happens in the small window between a blow-up argument and a violent collision becomes the central question, with investigators and attorneys battling over intent, timing, and what the evidence really proves. Then the story gets even messier in court: a newly tested Idaho law, a major fight over speedy-trial rights after key witnesses become unavailable, and juror issues that raise eyebrows and fuel an appeal. Along the way, the hosts dish their usual studio banter while keeping it real about domestic violence, accountability, and how the justice system can complicate cases that already feel impossible.

Contact The Lethal Library at TheLethalLibrary@gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok!

Transcript

Dani 0:00

In October, 2003, a couple left a counseling session at Mountain Home Air Force Base and drove to a home in rural Elmore County. Within hours, a woman was dead along Ditto Creek Road. After being struck by a car, the driver was her husband and the case that followed, focused on what happened in the moments between an argument and the impact

Stephanie 0:26

already. Unbelievable. All right, everyone, welcome back to another episode of The Lethal Library. I'm Stephanie.

Dani 1:06

And I'm Danny.

Stephanie 1:07

And we're here to tell you yet another true crime tale straight out of the 2 0 8 AKA Idaho. we like to focus on Idaho cases and cases in the Pacific Northwest. we've done a lot of death row cases, but that isn't all that we cover. And Danny here does all the research. She's incredible. And I'm just here to hear the story and say, swear words is my, on my job description, which I've just reviewed because I'm falling short. Um,

Dani 1:38

we'll have your quarterly review

Stephanie 1:40

afterwards. Oh, I'm nervous. Shit, I didn't know that was part of our, our, our appointment tonight. but yeah, so Danny, please take it away.

Dani 1:49

Sources used today are articles from the Idaho Statesmen, the Associated Press and Court Records. I love to get me a hold if they have some appeals and court records. Mm-hmm. That give me lots of juice. So

Stephanie 2:03

match onto them.

Dani 2:04

Yeah. and this is gonna be a little court heavy on the backside, because there was a new law and so it's kind of tested and Okay. Yeah.

Stephanie 2:15

I do need to interject and just say that, there is breaking news in the Lethal Library studio, the bun. Isn't present, but can you see this princess side braid? What the hell? So we are, you know, just, we're just experimenting and I just, I came over and daddy had her hair like this and I was like, that's amazing. And so Danny's being extra comfy. The bun was not bunning today. You know how hair do be doing that sometimes. So, um, we are on YouTube now, so you could watch this if you want and see every detail and terrible facial expression that I make. And, you know, I might not even catch that I like picked my nose or something. So Hey Easter eggs.

Dani 3:10

and check out all of our fun stuff that we have in our studio because it is curated. We have done it. It was fun.

Stephanie 3:18

It was fun doing it. Ah, absolutely. We put a lot of hard work into it.

Dani 3:21

Yeah. Went and got weird shit at school. Weird shit. School.

Stephanie 3:26

Alright, Danny, back to you.

Dani 3:29

In June, 1996, Albert Ciccone enlisted in the United States Air Force at the age of 19. Over the years, he was assigned to various duty stations, but spent much of his career at Mountain Home Air Force Base in Idaho, where he worked as a staff sergeant with the component maintenance squadron. Nailed it.

Stephanie 3:52

Very nice.

Dani 3:54

In early 2003 while living in Mountain Home, Ciccone met Kathleen Terry and their relationship. It progressed quickly. Really? Mm-hmm. They began living together and were married on August 29th, 2003.

Stephanie 4:12

And when did they meet? In oh

Dani 4:14

three? in, uh, what I could find was early 2003, and I don't know if that's January, I don't know if that's March. It could

Stephanie 4:20

be earliest January.

Dani 4:21

It could be earliest this January 1st.

Stephanie 4:23

And you know what I'll say, and this isn't a dig, I, it's completely logical. Any of those in like the armed forces you get, if you're married. you get different things, benefits, really, and considerations. And so I'm not saying it's a bad thing and oftentimes it's not. But especially when you have younger kids. Mm-hmm. Fresh outta high school frontal lobe, not quite developed. It can. I mean, the math is math.

Dani 4:58

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 4:59

Why wouldn't you try to find a partner immediately and qualify for better housing? Better pay. Hello?

Dani 5:07

And you might like each other. I mean, we all know the first six months. Mm-hmm. How, how that fun that can be

Stephanie 5:13

Oh yeah.

Dani 5:13

If it's fun, right?

Stephanie 5:15

Yeah. And the girl's got a, you know, a guy with a steady job. the guy's got a wife that can take care of things if he's deployed, it's, it can be extremely mutual, mutually beneficial. Mm-hmm. And that's not a bad thing, but it can lead to folks trying to shack up real quick. And I'm, so, I don't think that it's that quick under those standards.'cause most kids within their first six months of like, out of bootcamp and everything wifed up. And when I say kids, guys or gals wiped up, husbanded up immediately. So he started.

Dani 5:55

Well, he had been in it,

Stephanie 5:57

90.

Dani 5:57

He's 96.

Stephanie 5:58

Yeah.

Dani 5:59

So he went and did all of his

Stephanie 6:01

duties. So this, he, people would probably think, are you gonna be an old spinster? Not really. Men don't get that. But like, why aren't you married?

Dani 6:11

Right.

Stephanie 6:11

That's a lot of time to spend without getting those benefits.

Dani 6:15

Yeah. I think he was out mm-hmm. Being station, doing the thing, and you gotta remember what time this was 2003

Stephanie 6:22

Mm.

Dani 6:24

Marine war kids.

Stephanie 6:25

Scaly.

Dani 6:26

Yeah. Uh, that we had all the nine 11 stuff.

Stephanie 6:30

Mm-hmm.

Dani 6:31

And so we were out over there in,

Stephanie 6:34

it was not a, it wasn't looking, it wasn't as appealing as it is in times of peace. Sure. Yeah, yeah,

Dani 6:43

yeah. You're right. Within two weeks of marriage, Kathleen learned she was pregnant. Wowy. Wow. In the short weeks that followed, the relationship was marked by repeated arguments and separations. In September of 2003, after an argument, Ciccone attempted suicide.

Stephanie 7:08

Oh my gosh. This is not, this is escalated far too quickly.

Dani 7:13

It really,

Stephanie 7:13

which is

Dani 7:13

crazy

Stephanie 7:14

given how I really do feel that some might think this is quick, but under these standards it isn't nearly as quick as some,

Dani 7:26

I wasn't even in the military

Stephanie 7:30

sometimes, you know, and sometimes you just get her done or sometimes your heart takes a hold. That happens to a lot of people.

Dani 7:37

he survived and was admitted to Intermountain Hospital in Boise for psychiatric treatment. After his release, he learned that Kathleen had been unfaithful during one of their separations. And he had contracted a sexually transmitted infection,

Stephanie 8:00

which I know that so many women have gone through that. And first of all, the betrayal, the emotional turmoil, and then knowing that you've been physically harmed. I mean, truly, maybe some people will think that that sounds like woke or something to say it that way. But no, someone's introduced a disease to you that you trusted

Dani 8:21

and you don't. I don't know what this, there are some diseases that do not go away.

Stephanie 8:25

No. And you can

Dani 8:26

even, but it is, spec is specifically said in infection.

Stephanie 8:30

Mm-hmm. No.

Dani 8:30

So I'm not a disease.

Stephanie 8:32

We're hoping it's curable.

Dani 8:33

Right. Yeah. I think that that is,'cause growing up we just heard STDs. Mm-hmm. Everything was a disease. but this said specifically infection. So, um,

Stephanie 8:46

but still just knowing that,

Dani 8:48

and he had just went through that suicide attempt and I'm not. Giving him any grace or anything. But

Stephanie 8:54

that

Dani 8:55

would, to come back from that and then find out that you are sick because your partner cheated on you is a significant mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 9:02

It's no walk in the park, that's for sure. That's tough.

Dani 9:09

Another argument followed, and the, and the couple separated again, within about a week, they tried to reconcile,

Stephanie 9:18

this is hot and cold. This,

Dani 9:19

I'm

Stephanie 9:19

so, I'm so in relief that this isn't my life and this was my life for a while, and you think that this is normal and that this is what everyone's going through, and that you should fight to save and you should do everything. And people are, you know, e everyone has flaws.

Dani 9:39

Let it go. Let it go.

Stephanie 9:40

And if you get someone that's taking you outta your character

Dani 9:44

mm-hmm.

Stephanie 9:44

Regularly, he or she is not the one, right. Cis or bro like. Yeah,

Dani 9:51

absolutely. on October 16th, 2003, Koe and Kathleen attended a counseling session with a civilian social worker employed by the Air Force. Like, let's get you kids some help. Right? Great. Yeah. Let's use our resources. During the session, the counselor attempted to, and I, I don't, I'm not sure what this exactly means, so, but my research, it said the counselor attempted to provoke Ciccone by pressing him on issues in the relationship.

Stephanie 10:24

I think I do know what it means. So you're getting them to emulate what they're doing behind closed doors in a, in a safe place. Like not, but you're challenging them. I, there's some of those, I think that

Dani 10:37

would've been a better word. Yeah. Challenging than provoke. Yeah.

Stephanie 10:39

Yeah. So you've seen probably some of those therapy shows. I have only on TikTok with that one doctor that does the, where she's like, tell me more like. What is her name? I don't know. She's really cool. But you see that, she's like, where's that coming from? Explain more the feeling and making, she was pressing him.

Dani 10:59

Yeah. Yeah. At one point, Ciccone became upset enough to leave the room. I,

Stephanie 11:06

so she, he's been challenged.

Dani 11:08

Yeah. He later returned and continued the session. By the end of the appointment, the couple appeared to be calm and they left together.

Stephanie 11:18

Okay. So you, we think at all, all may not be well, but there's, we're

Dani 11:24

at a

Stephanie 11:24

stable

Dani 11:24

place

Stephanie 11:25

again.

Dani 11:25

We're, we're stable. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure. After leaving the base, they stopped a Burger King to grab a bite to eat. They then drove to Kathleen's mother's house. Where Kathleen had been staying during their separation after they arrived, another

Stephanie 11:41

argument began. They're not ready. And you know, it's not good when it's still happening in front of family. I'm not saying it can never happen in front of family, but when that, when it starts creeping over to, well, to where you can't, and I think people will agree, but where you can't be like, we can have this discussion later, right? Like, let's just get, get this or get that. And I, this is isn't the appropriate time or place when it's bleeding over. Right. And,

Dani 12:07

but there's no, there's like no SelfControl mm-hmm. Of like, yeah. That, that's, you're in a bad spot. It's no good if there's no self. I mean, and I, I don't know if everybody's, I have definitely been through this. You get in a little tense, little even spat mm-hmm. When you're getting ready to go somewhere. Right. It could be over. How are you loading the food? We're ta Why would you put that on the bottom of the bed? Like it could be something, so I've

Stephanie 12:32

told you this before, or Hello, why did you put the milk on top of the bread?

Dani 12:37

Right. Are we

Stephanie 12:38

whatever

Dani 12:38

you, whatever, whatever that situation is or Yeah. Or we are gonna be late, or whatever that little spat is with your partner, but you get there

Stephanie 12:48

mm-hmm.

Dani 12:49

And you put on a smiley face

Stephanie 12:51

and, and you, if it needs to be addressed later, you address it. Or sometimes you're like,

Dani 12:56

most of the time it goes away.

Stephanie 12:57

Tensions were high. Tensions were high, it wasn't.

Dani 13:00

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 13:00

Listen, I know that like Rick and I have had this several times and he's gotten so much better. So I do have to give him props. But Rick is of the belief that if you are not early, you're late. I'm of the belief that I'd love to show up right on time. That's when they asked us to be there. and or sometimes there's. An invite you get where there isn't, they're like show up between four and seven. That is not a strict time. They want people coming in and out, like for a graduation. Like it's just a pop-in time. You come in when you can, I'm

Dani 13:32

showing up at 3 45 if it starts

Stephanie 13:34

at four. Yeah. And that is Rick. And listen, I know that we differ this way and so I have, we've both given each other a lot of grace. But I will even try to accommodate and be like, okay, well we, I, if I get ready by this time, then we could be there 10 minutes early. Sure. Whatever. And when, I don't even need, when we don't even need to leave for 15 more minutes and I'm on the last steps of my routine, I have, I have a very set routine. So you know, if I'm on this layer of my hair, we're nearly there. This is the last step. This is the last step besides popping on whatever shirt I'm gonna wear. Like, we're very close and you have someone come in the bathroom and they're like, are you done yet? How, how we doing? What do you mean? How we doing? I, I have two curls left that are gonna take me 30 seconds. My shirt's gonna be on in another 30 seconds. I'm grabbing my bag and we're going, we've been at it 15 years. Folks, it, we know the, my dogs know the routine. They know exactly as soon as I get to that stuff, they're like, okay, I'm going to my room. You're gonna bring me my food. they know what's going on. And so one, is that helpful? No, there's nothing that you, I'm a very efficient person. There's nothing you could say that could make this physically go faster. There's nothing I could do to make it go faster. Two. What? Like it, it's just inflammatory. And then three, this is the kicker. This is, this doesn't happen very often, but it, every once in a while when it does, it makes me wanna flip a fucking table. So then. I'm working at M Speed, I'm working at peak efficiency. I am an absolutely oiled machine.'cause I'm like, okay, I'm trying to accommodate, right? And then I'm like, alright, let's go. Got the bag ready to go out the door, honey, have you seen my shoes? Oh my God, I can't find my keys. And I'm like, how? Absolutely fucking dare you. And it's rare. I

Dani 15:48

rushed my last two curls.

Stephanie 15:49

Yes, I lux

Dani 15:50

feed for this shit.

Stephanie 15:51

I have to let you know, like Rick and I have talked about this. I'm not shitting on him at all. He's so incredibly fantastic. Wonderful. This is why I, I always say you have to choose, choose your flaws that you're willing to live with. I'm totally willing to live with this. It is not a huge deal, but it's just one of those things it still gets, you're like. Pardon the fuck. I thought that we were a well-oiled machine. Ready to get the show on the road. Now we can't find shoes. Now. We can't find keys. And where's my cell phone? And oh gosh. Did we feed the dogs? These are all things that could have been done while you were busy walking

Dani 16:29

into the bathroom. I know you, I

Stephanie 16:32

Oh,

Dani 16:33

oh shit.

Stephanie 16:33

Anyway, that was a big sidetrack, but I know so many people can relate and it's all, it's, it's very relatable. It's all in good fun.

Dani 16:39

Yeah, it's very relatable.

Stephanie 16:40

It's just a silly, kooky little thing. And I have a feeling that this story is not silly and kooky.

Dani 16:45

It's not silly and kook.

Stephanie 16:46

No.

Dani 16:47

So they had stopped to get the food.

Stephanie 16:50

Yeah. Bk. Look at the

Dani 16:52

restrain. Have it your

Stephanie 16:52

way.

Dani 16:53

Have it your way. Not even eating in the car. Totally would've ate in the car.

Stephanie 16:58

I dunno if I've done that in my life.

Dani 17:00

drove home and so they were, they were there. eating. When that, when that argument began, and during the argument, Kathleen threw her food at Oh shit, and then she left her mom's house and started walking down the road. She's like, oh, I could just totally, oh, this happened

Stephanie 17:17

at the mom's

Dani 17:18

throwing the food.

Stephanie 17:20

Ooh. It wasn't even just a quick little snippy

Dani 17:22

snip No, it, it overfloweth.

Stephanie 17:25

Ooh.

Dani 17:27

And plus, you have to remember, Kathleen is with child hormones are, I'm, I'm not saying it's an, it's not an excuse,

Stephanie 17:36

but it is certain, a nuanced thing. Pregnant woman will tell you all the time, I'm reacting stupidly to so many things, and you have to give a little grace of like,

Dani 17:46

give a little

Stephanie 17:46

grace and not continue to escalate. Right. Which it sounds like there's nothing that factually you said that I can go on. But if you, if you're being sweet and like, okay, sweetie, or hey, no big. We can talk about it later. Huh? That, and so she was like, I'm fucking out. She left. She was in a rage. Like you probably that type of, you know, when you feel like, I would imagine where like, this is so frustrating to me when I'm angry, but I start crying and I'm not trying to cry.

Dani 18:22

Right?

Stephanie 18:22

Oh, that fucking pisses me off. So this is why I could never be pregnant. I made that decision myself. Well, I would probably be in jail for something

Dani 18:35

like that,

Stephanie 18:35

because they still prosecute you even if you're pregnant.

Dani 18:37

They, they don't care about the

Stephanie 18:38

hormones. They, there's no loophole

Dani 18:40

there. There's no loophole for that one. Yeah. But I was pregnant, your Honor. You're like, eh. They're

Stephanie 18:44

like, oh,

Dani 18:46

you gonna pass? Bye.

Stephanie 18:47

Yeah. That's not a thing. So as soon as I heard that, I was like, oof. Ciccone. Not for me.

Dani 18:53

Ciccone remained at the house briefly, where he cleaned the food from his clothes.

Stephanie 18:59

And that takes a lot of. Res I will, I will say some restraint to just be like cleaning, you know, when you're like controlled rage.

Dani 19:08

That was a definitely

Stephanie 19:09

a con where I'm gonna fix this. I'm getting the hell outta here.

Dani 19:13

Then he went and jumped into his car. He drove down the same direction that Kathleen had gone. And this is out in the country? Mm-hmm. So there's not much traffic out there? No. So he was

Stephanie 19:27

doing whatever he wanted.

Dani 19:28

Yeah. Kathleen was walking along the roadway. When Cone's vehicle approached, he didn't stop and Ciccone struck her at approximately 50 miles per hour.

Stephanie 19:41

55. Zero

Dani 19:43

five. Zero

Stephanie 19:44

five oh.

Dani 19:48

She died instantly from the impact. After striking her, his vehicle continued forward and hit a mailbox where it was disabled. Jae exited the car but did not approach Kathleen. Instead, he used his cell phone to call his mother. During the call, he told her that he had been in an accident and that Kathleen was hurt, saying he didn't know where he was and that his head and chest felt like they were going to explode. His mother would later say that his voice sounded unrecognizable and that he was screaming during the phone call. After the call, he left the roadway and just started walking into the desert. And it is desert, ladies and gentlemen.

Stephanie 20:40

Yeah. High desert

Dani 20:41

sage brush and all of it.

Stephanie 20:43

Not this area is not the pine trees and waterfalls and creeks that you're used to.

Dani 20:51

I love that. Thank you for that. witnesses in the area, saw the collision and went outside of course to, yeah. Uh, well, I don't know if they saw him hit her.

Stephanie 21:03

Maybe they slipped

Dani 21:03

after, but they saw the collision. They knew there was a collision. I mean, you're out in the country. They might have heard it,

Stephanie 21:08

I'm sure it was quite loud.

Dani 21:11

oh no, they did see it. Sorry, was some reporting that her body had been thrown from the impact. Neighbors attempted to assist while speaking with dispatch, but she was pronounced dead at the scene.

Stephanie 21:25

That took my breath away. Just imagining seeing that.

Dani 21:29

Yeah.

Stephanie 21:30

It's probably one of those things, and this, a lot of people that have witnessed a trauma like this or something crazy where like your brain doesn't even wanna let you know it's real. They're like, surely that did not just happen.

Dani 21:43

Well, and also driving 50 miles an hour, I, I don't know what kind of vehicle, I couldn't find the vehicle. I was very disappointed. Um,

Stephanie 21:53

I don't know that it matters for,

Dani 21:54

but you know, it might, it would maybe draw your attention to even have you look at the street depending on

Stephanie 22:01

Yeah. Like what, why are they driving

Dani 22:02

that? Because I can hear, I can hear, I'm like, oh, that, that fucker's driving fast even in my neighborhood.

Stephanie 22:07

Mm-hmm.

Dani 22:07

You can hear it. And sometimes I'll poke up my head or you'll hear a UPS truck and you're like, what the hell's going The yard guys? Not my yard guys,

Stephanie 22:15

motorcycle or diesels where I'm like, there's no way you're going 20. I know you're not going, if I can hear your turbo, just absolutely screaming. Mm-hmm. You're not going 20.

Dani 22:26

Right. But it can cause some attention.

Stephanie 22:30

Mm-hmm.

Dani 22:30

To maybe

Stephanie 22:30

that was

Dani 22:31

it. When our, the people that come and, do the islands and stuff in the neighborhood, the, the long guys, not my lawn guy, but the long guys, they'll have equipment out there making. And so it just picture like, that's unusual. What is that? Right. So they could have heard this vehicle coming that caught their attention to make them even look, you know, they,

Stephanie 22:53

and I've just gotta say, I'm not trying to say this in a derogatory sense because I don't think it's derogatory. I feel like maybe some people might think it is. But the ability to like quietly and calmly collect yourself and act professionally and like tidy up the house of the food and then like, go and do this. I know that for me that feels, it's not like we own it, but like a very, like a lot of women, if they get to the snap point, this is kind of what you see is like the quiet planning. The, so this is strange for me because usually in stuff like this, cases of like domestic violence or ma male spouse killing the female spouse, you see a sloppy sometimes heat of the moment, no heat. Or even if it's planned, it's planned so poorly and they've been acting like a dip shit in front of everyone. But to be able to be like.

Dani 24:04

I'm gonna clean it. Just

Stephanie 24:04

clean, cleaning this up calmly and then still not be able, like,

Dani 24:10

because I, and I will say in my research I did not see anything where, and I don't even know if mom was home. I didn't see any like reaction like there.

Stephanie 24:20

Right.'cause then you that could add some like shame to it if she was of like embarrassment. Mm-hmm. And we know that that's not good for anyone. The shame and feeling that can drive people, and I'm not excusing it at all.

Dani 24:34

No, it's

Stephanie 24:35

just, I'm just trying to get into like it's a different, what's happening in the brain.

Dani 24:39

Right. Kathleen was 27 years old. Oh my goodness. And approximately 11 weeks pregnant.

Stephanie 24:49

What a shame.

Dani 24:51

When deputies arrived at the scene, Ciccone was no longer there. And a search of the surrounding area. Was conducted, uh, let's go find this kid.

Stephanie 25:01

Yeah. Walking off into the desert,

Dani 25:03

approximately an hour later, he was located a mile from the scene standing on a ridge in the desert where he was taken into custody without incident and walked back towards the road different.

Stephanie 25:20

It is not the standard.

Dani 25:24

He was transported for medical treatment and later taken to the Elmore County Sheriff's Office where detectives began questioning him. During the interview, he was advised of his rights, and at the conclusion of the questioning, he was taken into custody on suspicion of murder. Kathleen Terry was born April 23rd, 1981 in Long Island, New York. That's a Long

Stephanie 25:51

Island.

Dani 25:52

That's a long way from

Stephanie 25:54

the tater land. Long way. Long way from the tater land for sure. It's always interesting to me people from like big cities or

Dani 26:00

the end about here.

Stephanie 26:02

Yeah.

Dani 26:03

she was the youngest of five children. In 1985. Her family moved to Eagle, Idaho where she lived until 1989 before relocating to the mountain home area.

Stephanie 26:13

And Eagle was nothing back then?

Dani 26:15

No. Eagle was Tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny.

Stephanie 26:18

Yeah. Nothing there.

Dani 26:19

Now it's fancy pants.

Stephanie 26:20

Now it's the ritzy. Ritzy. One of the ritzy

Dani 26:23

Yeah.

Stephanie 26:24

Areas. It's fancy in this close proximity. But yeah,

Dani 26:27

so I mean, basically she was eight years old when they moved to the mountain home area. she attended mountain home schools and later worked in the food service industry where she worked alongside friends and family members.'cause mountain home was small. Yeah.

Stephanie 26:40

You know, everyone,

Dani 26:41

she spent much of her time close to home, enjoying life on the ranch, traveling, with her father and siblings. Family members described her as outgoing and expressive with a sense of humor and a personality that drew people in. And she had a favorite color. She was a purple girl. Oh, cute. Yeah. And it also said that, she was a big makeup gal, and that she liked to share her makeup with others and, um, do people and

Stephanie 27:11

doing makeup in this time and place. First of all, Idaho was always like five to 10 years behind the trends before cell phones. We were living in a, like a bubble. You know, you would get the next trend five years after when it was already said and said and done. But we did not have YouTube tutorials. We barely had a magazine or two to give you some bullshit fucking tip. And this is

Dani 27:40

fucking nineties gl you remember? Nineties glam

Stephanie 27:43

it. The underpainting, the, it was hard techniques to do it right for what was cool in that era.

Dani 27:52

I say late nineties'cause this was 2003. But growing up, just

Stephanie 27:55

learning that, no, it was all that. Yeah. And so to be into, or even good at makeup at that time was a lot harder and required just for real natural skill or tons of practice. There was no free courses on YouTube of learning how to apply makeup and people had the worst advice. I have pictures where I'm like, we spent an hour and a half on our makeup that day just'cause we were having a girl's day and I look like a fucking psychopath. It was not good.

Dani 28:27

Look, I'm a victim of the nineties with the, with the tweezing of the brows.

Stephanie 28:31

Oh, the brows. Remind me to show you a recent picture I just got from like one of my besties.

Dani 28:36

Uh, and, and there's no recouping.

Stephanie 28:39

I have recouped a bit, thank God.'cause I'm like, oh my God, if mine were still like that, I've got the McDonald's arches separated by a three mile barrier on my forehead. What? What am I doing? I have like, so mine have recouped a smidge. They'll never be regular. But thank goodness a few, a few of them have had the heart to grow back. And I thank you so much. Eyebrow hairs that after I

Dani 29:05

do think about the ladies that get their eyebrows tattooed and I'm like, oh, I,

Stephanie 29:10

you never know where the trend is

Dani 29:11

gonna go. You don't know because look, and the nineties pencil thin was in pencil thin, high ass arches. Exactly. And if I would've got those tattooed, I mean, I've barely recovered. I have a little bit, but it's not good. Anyways, I was the master of the tweezers. Okay.

Stephanie 29:30

That's all I gotta say. And too much. Yeah, I was the same. I was tweezer happy. And it was not good for me or anyone else around me.

Dani 29:51

On October 17th, 2003, Ciccone was charged with two counts of first degree murder, one count for Kathleen, and one count for the unborn fetus under an Idaho law that had just went into effect. The year before in 2002, prosecutors were allowed to charge for the death of the fetus on a separate offense.

Stephanie 30:15

Damn.

Dani 30:16

And that didn't happen until 2002. Investigators said there was evidence supporting premeditation and that Ciccone was held without bond. In Elmore County jail, prosecutor said he confessed to killing his wife. A preliminary hearing began on October 30th, 2003 and extended over multiple dates cross, across the following weeks at the conclusions of the hearing on January 12th, 2004, Toni was bound over on both counts of first degree murder at his arraignment. On February 2nd, 2004, Ciccone entered a plea of not guilty and requested a jury trial'cause this is what they do

Stephanie 31:03

and this is your best chances. For the most part

Dani 31:06

to negotiate.

Stephanie 31:08

Yeah. There's a few instances where just a judge where you just request the judge do it where it could be in your favor, but those are things of where there's like not legal precedent for the crime.

Dani 31:22

Well, and you have to remember this new law.

Stephanie 31:25

Mm-hmm.

Dani 31:26

So it could, they're gonna try to challenge that. Like I, I do think, um,

Stephanie 31:31

and I have opinions on that as well, so we'll get into it. Maybe

Dani 31:35

The court case was set for trial, in July, 2004 with jury selection to begin on July 20th, four days before jury selection was set to begin on July 16th, the state filed a motion to continue the trial stating that several material witnesses assigned to Mountain Home Air Force Base were deployed overseas. And unavailable to testify.

Stephanie 32:06

Makes sense.

Dani 32:07

So a hearing on that motion was set for July 19th, literally the day before, jury selection. During that hearing, Ciccone opposed a delay and asserted his right to a speedy trial.

Stephanie 32:19

Oh,

Dani 32:19

stating

Stephanie 32:22

again, this podcast brought to you by Garage Door. Garage door.

Dani 32:26

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Stephanie 32:27

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Dani 32:27

love garage door? It's my absolute favorite garage door.

Stephanie 32:34

Set it off three times when you want. Let's do it again. Now you've set off the dog. This podcast also brought to you by little white dog who was behaving. Amazingly until garage door. He thought his, his dad was garage door. He thought his dad was leaving. He's like, get me out of this prison. Oh my God. This is an important

Dani 32:56

part. Okay.

Stephanie 32:59

Oh, where was I

Dani 33:00

at? Lori

Stephanie 33:01

deployed. They were deployed. He wanted a speedy trial. Okay. Loop loophole. Not really a loophole, but a Gotcha. No, it's absolute. It's a gotcha.

Dani 33:09

It's an absolute right.

Stephanie 33:10

Yeah.

Dani 33:11

That you get a speedy trial, otherwise they can let you sit there in prison for four or five years. Mm-hmm. And I lose everything. And I'm not saying for this particular thing, but you could literally lose your whole life.

Stephanie 33:22

Life. It's an important, right. Especially with the cash bail system.

Dani 33:25

It, you need to have a speedy trial.

Stephanie 33:27

Mm-hmm.

Dani 33:28

And so he was like, no way. I want my trial and I want it

Stephanie 33:31

now. Now,

Dani 33:32

yeah.

Stephanie 33:33

What, who, what is that jingle? I want my, and I want it now. I want my money. Oh, it's the money. Money. And I want it now.

Dani 33:41

It's j.

Stephanie 33:42

Called JG Wentworth.

Dani 33:44

Wentworth 8

Stephanie 33:45

7

Dani 33:46

7

Stephanie 33:46

cash now. Yeah.

Dani 33:47

That's, oh my gosh.

Stephanie 33:49

It's my money and I want it now.

Dani 33:52

He is like eating pizza at his mom's house. Jesus. Um, if,

Stephanie 33:57

you know, you know,

Dani 33:59

Sooni had a pose, a delay, was ready to go to trial, and the court granted the state's motion to continue the trial

Stephanie 34:10

scandalous.

Dani 34:11

This really,

Stephanie 34:13

this is not giving me good vibes'cause I, we know where this type of shit goes.

Dani 34:17

the court granted the state's motion and the case is reset for January, 2005. So we are literally, this happened in October

Stephanie 34:27

oh 3,

Dani 34:27

0 3,

Stephanie 34:29

he,

Dani 34:30

mm-hmm.

Stephanie 34:32

And I feel like there should, this is one that's weird to me because this is. The, so the government's required to provide you a speedy trial. However, the government has also required people to be overseas and deployed. So it's like, I can see them being like, well, yeah, but this is our stuff. we're gonna do our thing and people are gonna be deployed. And so we'll, we'll speedy it up as much as we can.

Dani 34:57

Isn't it a weird thing?

Stephanie 34:58

It's, uh, I, I'm not a legal expert, so maybe it's, maybe it's a weird thing to me and it's not to other people. Feel free to, we, we love hearing guys, if you are in the field, let us know. Give us the deep,

Dani 35:11

because I

Stephanie 35:13

just, you can't trust ai.

Dani 35:14

How can they not give? Like, that is the cornerstone. It's

Stephanie 35:20

basic.

Dani 35:21

It is the most basic, right?

Stephanie 35:23

Mm-hmm.

Dani 35:25

When you are charged at the time, and it's a risk

Stephanie 35:27

you take when that's why some people wait forever to charge someone.'cause they're like. If we charge, they could flip that timer immediately. And we're not ready.

Dani 35:35

It's done. And we're not ready.

Stephanie 35:37

And we can't get ready

Dani 35:38

in that time. And you know, a famous case for this is the OJ Simpson trial. Guess what? The prosecution wasn't ready and they wanted to fucking delay. And you know what Johnny Cochrane said, go fuck yourself.

Stephanie 35:51

Why is no one ready,

Dani 35:53

Uhhuh? Exactly.

Stephanie 35:56

No.

Dani 35:56

And guess what? You can

Stephanie 35:57

get fucked.

Dani 35:57

That was in OJ Simpson's trial. That was a benefit to the defense because they got caught literally with their pants down like they did. There was so much shit. It's it

Stephanie 36:12

sometimes it's a bluffing game too.

Dani 36:14

Yeah. But there was so much shit that they didn't have because there that case was epically fucking so much evidence. They did not have it.

Stephanie 36:27

They couldn't.

Dani 36:28

I just put

Stephanie 36:28

it together.

Dani 36:29

I will rewatch that on Netflix, the trial part. Mm-hmm. And they're like, did you touch the evidence without wearing a glove? And oh, what was his name? Fun.

Stephanie 36:42

There

Dani 36:42

was some fun. What about this Mr. Fung? And it showed him because oh, they had all those cameras out there and he is literally handling evidence with no gloves,

Stephanie 36:53

Hiller.

Dani 36:55

Oh. So yeah.

Stephanie 36:55

So there it's a basic, oh, Shay dars, I suppose idea.

Dani 36:59

Yeah.

Stephanie 37:00

So, um, cluster fuck of the century.

Dani 37:04

It really, yes, but, and so he does have, should have the right to a speedy trial.

Stephanie 37:10

Yes.

Dani 37:10

It's the most fundamental.

Stephanie 37:11

There's many reasons for it. And it's.

Dani 37:13

Even. And so the government can't hold you for fucking 20 years before they try you. It is a, yeah. I mean, and that's,

Stephanie 37:19

and so that's how it works some places. And so it

Dani 37:22

really is,

Stephanie 37:22

even if you know that someone is for sure guilty and you don't agree with them getting this benefit, this is, it sucks when, you know, but it could affect all of our society so terribly if this wasn't a thing. So is it

Dani 37:41

wasn't in Italy, Amanda Knox, like health forever.

Stephanie 37:45

Yes.

Dani 37:45

And then retried after she was like, there is, we have some good things in the court system.

Stephanie 37:52

Yeah. To

Dani 37:52

protect

Stephanie 37:52

innocent. It's certainly not perfect and we talk about it every time of the failures and the loopholes that are are bad. This is a loophole. I wouldn't even call it a loophole. This is a right, that is,

Dani 38:04

this is right.

Stephanie 38:05

Overall. You

Dani 38:06

can't hold me forever. You can't charge me. And then

Stephanie 38:08

just because then you would never even have to have a good prosecution. You can let someone rot for 20 years.

Dani 38:13

Exactly.

Stephanie 38:14

And you could, so

Dani 38:15

I agree. Like

Stephanie 38:15

accused of anything.

Dani 38:16

He, he should be pushing for this. Like

Stephanie 38:19

it's a great

38:19

strategy

Dani 38:20

and I was, I was surprised that they granted that motion.

Stephanie 38:26

Yeah. Risky business, risky bus. You know that you're going to, at that point I feel like you know that it's gonna come to appeal

Dani 38:34

and it does. on December 20th, 2004, Ciccone filed the motion to dismiss the charges, arguing the delay violated his right to the speedy trial

Stephanie 38:45

as he should. This is A plus B equals C.

Dani 38:49

On January 3rd, uh oh five, the court denied the motion and found. That good cause existed for the continuance. I didn't even know this existed.

Stephanie 38:58

Right. And that's why I was like, well, maybe

Dani 39:01

they can, didn't say I didn't even know this existed.

Stephanie 39:02

Yeah. But we're the government. And they're the government. So I

Dani 39:05

thought there was a hard,

Stephanie 39:07

I thought there was too

Dani 39:08

hard line. The more you

Stephanie 39:10

know,

Dani 39:12

and usually it's the defense that needs more time. I, I'm gonna an uneducated guess I'm gonna say it's 90% the defense that asks for continuances.

Stephanie 39:24

Well, and because you're waiting to see what they have. Mm-hmm. Because you have to see what they have to build your case. So if they're waiting for DNA, you're like, well, what the DNA says that's gonna choose which A, B, or C option. Exactly. I'm for my defense.

Dani 39:38

Right.

Stephanie 39:38

And I need time to, after that's received and they're ready to go, I still need some time to choose where I'm gonna go after I receive the evidence.

Dani 39:47

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So this is kind of a little twist. I, this is a very interesting one. Legally. This is why. Oh, I love the legal stuff. You know, Denny's, that

Stephanie 39:56

girl

Dani 39:58

jury selection began on January 4th in 2005 in Elmore County. The trial proceeded over 11 days. testimony during the trial included accounts from individuals who responded to the scene shortly after the collision. Darlene Shaw, one of the first people to arrive, describe Ciccone standing near the vehicle and speaking on his phone. She said, he stated, quote, I got the job done, but in an earlier hearing, held closer to the time of the incident. Shaw had said she could not hear what he was saying during the call.

Stephanie 40:39

And this is no matter what anyone wants to think, it has been proven so many times that memory, first person witness accounts are one of the most we've, we've fallible.

Dani 40:52

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 40:53

And the, the more you access a memory, the more it changes because you're accessing it then, and

Dani 41:01

you, you're

Stephanie 41:01

bringing, then you're, then you're bringing in all of the things you've learned since then.

Dani 41:06

She could have talked to a neighbor. I, and I, and I've mentioned this before, on, on a previous case that we've done, that there was, there's some Netflix series, but where like this lady could have literally talked to her neighbor and like, you didn't hear him say that, and then all of a sudden, that's her memory. It's a, it's a fucking

Stephanie 41:25

thing. It can happen and it sucks. And I, I. Our brains want to think that our brains are the end all be all, and that we could never do that. That's another way of protecting from who wants to say they're wrong. Y your brain wants to avoid being incorrect, being rejected, being shamed, being the problem. And so your brain will do things to make you avoid all that

Dani 41:53

and justify

Stephanie 41:54

and make sense of something. Mm-hmm. Sometimes of,

Dani 41:58

yeah.

Stephanie 41:58

What, why could this have happened? Well, my brain thinks this, and it, I'm not saying that people are a hundred percent weak minded, but it there is literal science showing this, that this is a thing. It is. In general, it, it happens. Absolutely.

Dani 42:15

Evidence presented at the trial, focused on the moments leading up to the collision and whether the vehicle had been driven intentionally towards c. The prosecution argued that the act was deliberate and premeditated. The defense argued that the collision was accidental during closing arguments, the prosecution addressed the lack of direct witnesses to the final moments before the impact stating. There's only two people that know, and Kathleen Ciccone isn't here to tell us. The prosecution also argued that there was no testimony indicating that Ciccone had been distracted or unaware of Kathleen's presence before the collision.

Stephanie 43:00

Yeah. Cell phones were not very prevalent back then. They existed, but people were not texting and scrolling. Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. That was not happening.

Dani 43:10

No. You were

Stephanie 43:11

literally

Dani 43:11

paying.

Stephanie 43:12

It was safer. You were doing T nine. The little like doing the two for A, B, C. You can do that and look at the road. I was such a pro. T nine texter. I will not text now.'cause I know myself and I know how easy it is. Don't even

Dani 43:28

in oh three, were we texting

Stephanie 43:30

a little? Sometimes they even had those, like, this might've even been the time where Nokia had like the walkie talkie feature, which was so cool.

Dani 43:39

Uh, that's was my son's first phone.

Stephanie 43:41

My sister had that and I thought, I still think my sister is pretty cool, but I thought that she was like walking her friends all the time. Um, and you didn't have to, it was like cell phone coverage walkie. So you didn't have to be, you know how shitty walkies are, right? Unless you get the expensive, expensive ones. And it was, it was like voice to text and it would, but it would come right through. So if you're in questionable company and they're like, did you hear them? You know?

Dani 44:12

Allison's a fucking batch,

Stephanie 44:15

like or something. You know, it's gonna come right through.

Dani 44:18

And you're also, we're paying a dollar a minute. Yeah. This is fucking for real.

Stephanie 44:25

Yeah. You're not scrolling or calling or texting unnecessarily on a cell phone at this time. No, you

Dani 44:30

are not making, it was quick. A little like, I remember it was, I don't know.

Stephanie 44:37

You were like, yeah, I can wait till I get there.

Dani 44:38

you might've got, and you had minutes.

Stephanie 44:41

Yeah.

Dani 44:41

You had a certain amount of minutes that you could use. And then after that it was a dollar a minute. but it was seriously super expensive to have a cell phone.

Stephanie 44:51

Yeah. So this, I doubt it was a dis if it was a distraction, it certainly was not a cell phone is the moral of the story here. Yeah.

Dani 44:58

No, the jury began deliberations on January 5th, 2005.

Stephanie 45:04

During deliberations, an issue arose involving juror conduct. Jurors maintain your conduct. Gosh, this has been the kryptonite to so many cases that I've heard recently where I'm like the one juror doing their experiment

Dani 45:22

at home. Even the fucker murder might get a fucking new trial because a jury, it wasn't jury misconduct, but it was the, court. Not the recorder.

Stephanie 45:37

Oh, like sharing information or something?

Dani 45:39

Yeah. She was just like, uh, basically like, oh, watch his testimony. She was like in charge of the jurors. It's a clerk. I think it was a clerk.

Stephanie 45:49

Yes. We cannot be doing that guys.

Dani 45:52

Today's a big day. Mm, wink, wink, uh, keep an eye on his, on his

Stephanie 45:57

reactions.

Dani 45:58

Yeah.

Stephanie 45:59

Watch his body language, I think is what she said.

Dani 46:02

Anyways,

Stephanie 46:03

you cannot be like, these are the things that I understand the urge because listen, I love some tea. Then the

Dani 46:11

bitch wrote a book

Stephanie 46:13

and she was like, well, and I told them, take a look. Make sure you focus on this, and I don't know. That's how about

Dani 46:21

you fucking take your job seriously, including jurors like,

Stephanie 46:24

yeah,

Dani 46:25

this is a right that is not afforded to many, many people in the world. Take your fucking job seriously.

Stephanie 46:33

And the the expectations are laid out clearly. And so

Dani 46:38

there's no guesswork here.

Stephanie 46:39

You're not, you don't have the benefit. Like I, I sometimes understand when jurors misunderstand instructions because sometimes those instructions are not clear and there's 60 pages long Casey Anthony trial, they're like,

Dani 46:50

if you

Stephanie 46:51

don't know how someone died, you can't have a murder. That was not explicit in the instructions. but hello. They're like, if you don't know how someone died, the murder did not happen. Wasn't their exact words, but they're like, well, how can you?

Dani 47:07

Yeah,

Stephanie 47:08

if you don't know, then that's the doubt.

Dani 47:11

And then juries can walk away and then get a, get a different perspective and they're like, oh my God, we've done the wrong thing. That's happened.

Stephanie 47:19

Mm-hmm.

Dani 47:20

But let me tell you about this juror misconduct.

Stephanie 47:22

Tell me about it.

Dani 47:24

One juror obtained outside information related to the case,

Stephanie 47:29

big L and,

Dani 47:29

and shared it with other jurors. And this is relatable to, like people doing self experiments, they do their own experiments. Like, can

Stephanie 47:37

I fit a gun in my, if I had a gun this long? There was one that I just listened to recently that was like, they did their own thing of, well, I did it and that there's no way that I could have shot it myself if the gun was this long. And that wasn't part of evidence.

Dani 47:51

One that comes to mind for me was, a woman had been drowned in a bathtub and then she was outside of the bathtub, so they got wet. And then got outta the bathtub and laid on the floor to see how long it took them to be like drier or how wet.

Stephanie 48:08

Oh, the wetness.

Dani 48:09

Yes. Yes. No, you cannot be conducting experiments.

Stephanie 48:12

You have to go off what the experts say. Yeah. And if they don't have the, and listen son, you especially cannot share it.

Dani 48:24

That

Stephanie 48:24

was'cause I can, I can, if I was in a jury and it wasn't answered for me, would I have tried it being in the bathtub and out or checking the, a gun length, trying to see what did that look like. I would've absolutely done it. And this is why this, this is why they won't choose me for jury duty and they shouldn't.'cause I don't wanna be doing jury duty. I used to think I wanted it. I do not want it.

Dani 48:48

I would never get selected.

Stephanie 48:50

No. So they won't choose me for a jury selection as they should. As they shouldn't.

Dani 48:56

We will not be, uh, so yeah. the, and being a small town, I think that this juror probably obtained that information from everyone's

Stephanie 49:05

talking.

Dani 49:06

Yeah. But there was another juror.

Stephanie 49:09

Oh, we have multiple issues here.

Dani 49:12

Another juror reported overhearing the lead investigator discussing the case in public.

Stephanie 49:19

And in that point, jurors I can, juror, were all just regular people, were not law degrees. The lead investigator, shut the fuck up. The

Dani 49:33

court questioned jurors about the incidents. One juror was removed and replaced with an alternate,

Stephanie 49:38

which I love that. That's part of it, is that there's alternates,

Dani 49:42

and that jury was instructed to begin deliberations all over again. So they

Stephanie 49:46

did. And I, I get it. And I understand for the ti the time and money aspect, you can't unring a bell. So even if someone introduces something in the court in front of the jury and the judge says, you can't take that into account. I don't know how, and there's surely there's ways to do it. That would be very tough for me, even if I didn't voice about something that I heard.

Dani 50:15

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 50:16

For me to not have that as part of my personal decision. Correct. You can't unring that bell. That bell. As soon as you say, don't pay attention, ignore that. Boom. It's locked in. I'm remembering it until I definitely remembering it. Death. I'm taking that all the way to heart.

Dani 50:34

But even though they, they started their jury de deliberation

Stephanie 50:38

mm-hmm.

Dani 50:38

Deliberations,

Stephanie 50:40

we got this,

Dani 50:42

uh, that they were instructed to start all over again. By the end of that day, the jury had returned the verdict. Yeah.

Stephanie 50:48

They said, okay, we got our ducks in a row. Now, now we know not to, not to be doing the things

Dani 50:53

and we definitely don't share. Uh, Ciccone was,

Stephanie 50:57

they wanted out of there.

Dani 50:59

Ciccone was found guilty of first degree murder. And the death of Kathleen and second degree murder. In the death of the fetus. On February 10th, 2005, ney filed a motion for a new trial based on the juror conduct. The motion was heard on March 8th, 2005, and a few days later, the court issued a written order denying the motion.

Stephanie 51:22

Oh, they said nah. Mm-hmm.

Dani 51:25

The, the sentencing hearing was held in June. after hearing statements from the victim's family and arguments from the counsel, the court sentenced Ciccone to a fixed life sentence for the murder of Kathleen. He was sentenced to 15 years in prison for the death of the fetus. Big sentences. Mm-hmm. Following sentencing, a judgment and commitment order was entered and the document was initially filed with a date that proceeded the sentencing hearing before the court later entered an amend amended judgment correcting the filing date. So this was, this is, um,

Stephanie 52:07

is this like a typo?

Dani 52:08

Yeah. Ooh. And that can be very

Stephanie 52:11

dangerous.

Dani 52:12

Yeah. In

Stephanie 52:12

this realm.

Dani 52:14

On August 2nd of oh five, Ciccone filed a notice of appeal in the appeal. Ciccone challenged the delay between his arrest and trial, arguing that the continuance granted in the July, 2004. resulted in a violation of his right to a speedy trial, and he also challenged statements made during closing arguments, including the prosecution's statement that only two people knew what occurred, and that Kathleen was not present to provide her account, along with the argument that there was no testimony indicating he had been distracted or unaware of her presence.

Stephanie 52:56

Again, this is one of those things where I think it's a relevant appeal.

Dani 53:01

Thank you. Okay. It is relevant, like nobody said, how I could have been distracted or not seen her

Stephanie 53:11

and the speedy trial is the biggest thing

Dani 53:13

that, that's it for me

Stephanie 53:14

like and. It's the court's responsibility to hear and weigh these out to fi better. Fine tune. Our justice system is never gonna be perfect.

Dani 53:26

No,

Stephanie 53:26

because there's a million different, the

Dani 53:28

speedy trial really fucks with me because I feel it fucks

Stephanie 53:31

with me.

Dani 53:32

Um, I feel like the people that they were wanting to, and I didn't find this, I'm assuming the people that were overseas that they couldn't find weren't the neighbors that saw her hit, they were his buddies at the Air Force that probably had some information or would testify to the relationship. Mm-hmm. Not the actual act. Not

Stephanie 53:54

critical. Not

Dani 53:55

critical, not the act. I mean, it builds up a whole case, but for it to be held up on your character,

Stephanie 54:01

like a character witness. No.

Dani 54:03

And

Stephanie 54:03

that's why these protections are in place.

Dani 54:05

Yes. And again, there was also, within all that, there was additional arguments addressing that juror conduct that happened during deliberations. where the court had moved that one juror and replaced it with an alternate. But koi challenged whether

Stephanie 54:24

that was sufficient.

Dani 54:25

That's exactly what I have written down.

Stephanie 54:27

You cannot unring that bell. Right.

Dani 54:29

And so it's the,

Stephanie 54:31

you can even say that you have for me, maybe some people can and be like, I will not let that be any part of my decision making my brain do not work that way. Mm-hmm. It's there, it's, the seeds have been planted.

Dani 54:45

The appeal addressed the overall timeline of the case, including the period between the arrest, charging, and trial, and the reasons provided for the continuance. With arguments presented regarding the availability of those witnesses. In the briefing that followed, Ciccone argued that the delay between his arrest and the trial extended beyond one year, and that the continuance granted in July of oh four was not supported by sufficient cause, asserting that the absence of a witness assigned to Mountain Home Air Force Base did not justify postponing the trial for several months. He argued that the statements made during the closing argument and properly referenced his decision not to testify, focusing on the prosecution's statement that only two people knew what occurred, and that Kathleen was not present to provide her account. As well as the argument that there was no testimony indicating that he had been distracted, before the collision.

Stephanie 55:47

That seems a little bit more murky to me, but sure, they've they've got it. You've gotta pull out all the punches, and that's how this works.

Dani 56:00

cni further, further challenge the handling of that juror conduct, arguing that the introduction of the outside information and the report of a juror overhearing the lead investigator discussing the case, created a risk of prejudice that was not cured by removing one juror, substituting an alternate and restarting deliberations. That bell. This is, I would totally,

Stephanie 56:26

if it was me, whether

Dani 56:28

I was with that guilty or innocent

Stephanie 56:29

with

Dani 56:30

that juror tampering bullshit. It fucks no. Nope. If you're gonna be a

Stephanie 56:37

juror. First off, you're better than me. Good for you. But you have to mind your P's and Q's and

Dani 56:45

encourage your peers. You're literally go sentencing somebody to fucking life in prison.

Stephanie 56:51

Mm-hmm.

Dani 56:52

Or 20 years. Years in prison

Stephanie 56:54

even. It's five years. Could you imagine losing five years of your life? I would never recover. Oh, I would never fucking recover.

Dani 57:01

So you gotta take it seriously. Qui. Be back talking shit. Don't be whispering. Follow

Stephanie 57:06

the rules.

Dani 57:07

Follow the goddamn rules.'cause

Stephanie 57:09

you will fuck it

Dani 57:10

up. Thank you for your service.

Stephanie 57:11

Yes, appreciate it.

Dani 57:14

In response to State argued that the delay was supported by the unavailability of those material witnesses and that the continuance was necessary to ensure the presence at trial. Listen, I wanted to find out what was so important. I couldn't find it. I couldn't find what was so important to this trial that had to be, had, had to what these witnesses had. I couldn't find it. I was so disappointed. The state also maintained that the district court acted with, in its discretion, in granting the motion and denying the motion to dismiss. The state argued that the statements made during the closing argument were proper comments on the evidence and did not reference Cheney's decision not to testify. And it maintained that the district court properly addressed the juror issues by removing the affected juror. I don't like that affected your,

Stephanie 58:12

the pool is tainted, in my opinion.

Dani 58:14

Mm-hmm. But it's all made better. But because they instructed the jury to begin deliberations again.

Stephanie 58:20

Yeah. Start, start. And you can do that and. Maybe there, maybe people aren't generally like me in this way to where I don't think I could not, I'm such a context person if I've heard it, even if I'm not bringing it to the jury table in that room, that is going to part of my decision.

Dani 58:43

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 58:44

Because

Dani 58:45

it's locked and loaded, it's

Stephanie 58:47

in there. Oh, I, I need the context. Mm-hmm. And that, that's what guides me. And that's like, like a core principle for me. So I wouldn't be able to have the self-restraint to do it. I would have the self-restraint to not talk about it. And I might find other reasons to say why I am saying no or yes and not say the real reason if that was like the real reason. Sure. I could do that. And I'm not saying that's right. That's, that's why I shouldn't be on a jury. It, it truly is. I shouldn't be on a jury. You

Dani 59:26

cannot disregard it. It would be just, it would be very difficult for me to

Stephanie 59:29

disregard. How do you erase something from your head?

Dani 59:32

Yeah.

Stephanie 59:33

Like imagine if your partner wronged you in some way and they're like, actually per the rules, you have to erase that from your head. And this can't be a part of any of our discussions ever.

Dani 59:44

It's not happening.

Stephanie 59:44

It's not fucking happening. For me,

Dani 59:48

in the Appellate's court decision, the court concluded that the delay in bringing the case to trial did not violate toe's right to a speedy trial. Finding that the reasons for the continuance, including the unavailability of witnesses, supported the district court's decision. I wish I knew you

Stephanie 1:00:09

guys time. You knew, and I feel like they're like, well yeah, we can't delay it if for other delays, but if it's us,

Dani 1:00:16

that's my assumption.

Stephanie 1:00:17

Please legal people

Dani 1:00:19

if you

Stephanie 1:00:20

have an opinion or know why. I feel like they're like, yeah, but we caused the delay so we we could delay if fault. I just don't know

Dani 1:00:28

our fault. What the prosecution,

Stephanie 1:00:34

what made it so important?

Dani 1:00:35

Right. I and God, I wish I, I wish I looked, I looked, I looked, I looked, um,'cause a lot of times I get information about what happened. Mm-hmm. In court I got zero, zilch, nothing. They were very hush hush about this,

Stephanie 1:00:49

which doesn't surprise me involving the military.

Dani 1:00:52

Oh, maybe

Stephanie 1:00:52

almost always. They do not want these cases to be,

Dani 1:00:57

maybe they went to, maybe they went and just like report on it, but don't,'cause there was nothing, there was no court test. Look, the statesman always gives me court testimony.

Stephanie 1:01:08

Statesman.

Dani 1:01:09

I didn't get shit here. The court also concluded that the statements made during closing, the closing argument did not constitute an improper comment on Choi's decision not to testify, and that they were within the scope of permissible argument based on the evidence presented at trial. I don't even know what the closing argument was. I'm pissed. I wanna know. We wanna know. It's

Stephanie 1:01:34

out there in the ether.

Dani 1:01:36

With respect to the juror conduct, the court concluded that the district court did not abuse its discretion in removing the one juror, substituting the alternate and requiring the jury to begin deliberations again. They said that's

Stephanie 1:01:51

par for the course.

Dani 1:01:52

Good enough,

Stephanie 1:01:53

and they probably, they're usually coming to this with like multiple cases where that's happened and it's been accepted.

Dani 1:01:59

It's good enough precedent. Yep.

Stephanie 1:02:01

They, I'm sure they were able to show precedent.

Dani 1:02:04

So

Stephanie 1:02:04

I would hope we don't know, but I would hope,

Dani 1:02:07

oh, there was lots of, I prob I could have prob I did not include those. You guys would've been bored with that. but I do have that.

Stephanie 1:02:14

You break it down very nicely for us.

Dani 1:02:16

Thank you, ma'am. The court affirmed the judgment and the sentences imposed. Ciccone is currently 49 and in custody Wow. At the Idaho State Correctional Center. Look, I am, I I just don't like the way the court went down. I'm just gonna say it, um, it, it was,

Stephanie 1:02:39

it was risky business. Mm-hmm. And you don't want that in court just because things can pop up and it drags the family back through.

Dani 1:02:49

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:02:50

And it,

Dani 1:02:51

but there hasn't been any other appeals or anything. Weird. So,

Stephanie 1:02:55

okay. I do, I do think he should rot again. Yeah. This is something that like, you

Dani 1:03:00

don't accidentally,

Stephanie 1:03:00

in those Facebook groups, people are not able to reconcile that. Like, I don't think that he should be free. I'm not fighting on behalf. Right. I'm saying, guys, this move to do the thing where we're saying it is still a speedy trial, does it fit it like that? I'm asking a question, I'm not a lawyer. Like mm-hmm. And people will be like, you hate the family and you wanted her to, people say the wildest shit, you guys, the fucking wildest shit. That

Dani 1:03:30

is

Stephanie 1:03:30

an and also fun fact, when I used to do the Facebook groups a lot, it was when it was being like Facebook was being very heavily censored. But I, I told someone that I said, Hey. Hey sis, you are acting like a silly goose because someone was losing their absolute shit in the comments. And we, our philosophy was let let the, let the group run the group. Like we're not some groups, if you say one thing bad, you're out. So I was like, and that, and that's why people liked our group. But you know, we tried to go in and be like, the bumpers, if you're like bumper bowling, like, Hey bro, racist much. Just so you know, like, that is a hot take. Like everyone, let's, let's calm down. This is, people can have bad theories. That's not illegal. And I, I told someone that they were acting like a silly goose and I got banned from Facebook for like a week. Couldn't comment or beep a part of groups for like a month. This was, and I had, I had no previous strikes or anything and I was just like,

Dani 1:04:37

look at you being controversial.

Stephanie 1:04:38

That was, that was me making it. I wanted to say, listen up, cunt, like you're

Dani 1:04:46

being lighthearted about

Stephanie 1:04:47

it. Okay. Let's be silly. I'm just being, I'm trying to keep the peace for everyone and I got absolutely slammed for it. So, man, the memories, I, I love those memories. I've met some of my dearest friends. I've never had online friends before and I have now had online friends for like six years and I ride for them like I do my in real life friends. They are amazing women. so it, I'm so happy for it. But damn them Facebook groups, there's just, they have a, there's a little bit of a stench coming off'em and I don't know if I'll ever get, get down like that again, but, and for all the people that are listening from the Facebook group. I loved it. I still love it, but you all know what I'm talking about. I feel like ours were the best, but you know what I'm talking about. This isn't to every Facebook crime group user. Wow,

Dani 1:05:52

sis. Yeah. And I, I wish that I could have had or trial business, so if someone has the in, uh, because I'd really like to know, like looking at it, hovering over it, a country road. You, you, there's no obstructed views. I also think that maybe he was just completely mad, like

Stephanie 1:06:21

you could be driving in a blind rage and sp because listen, I have a sped down a road just to speed down a road in like I know my emotions driving that and.

Dani 1:06:32

I'm not saying no, but I, I, I don't, I just don't,

Stephanie 1:06:36

I, I don't like

Dani 1:06:37

how the trial went down. I do not like that because I do believe

Stephanie 1:06:41

they

Dani 1:06:42

left a lot of

Stephanie 1:06:42

openings for appeal.

Dani 1:06:44

Appeals, appeals, appeals, and you know, luckily it all went the state's way. But geez, to drive the family through all that and unnecessarily over probably a couple of his buddies saying,

Stephanie 1:07:01

and listen, even if it was a accident, I'm sorry, someone still died, is my opinion. There's people, just it being an accident is not enough to have, you have no consequence. And I feel like some people, when they're in that situation and it is an innocent accident, it's like, yeah, but someone died.

Dani 1:07:25

You weren't pulling out of a parking space at five miles an hour. No, and I, and, and didn't see the guy turning, doing 15, I'd have a fucking fit, by the way. Mm-hmm. Because I'm super careful about backing out. I I, I don't, there wasn't enough information for me, for me to have a decisive decision, like either way, because I don't have that information available to me.

Stephanie 1:07:52

Yeah.

Dani 1:07:52

On whether it was an accident or delivery a court

Stephanie 1:07:54

case.

Dani 1:07:54

Yeah. Right. And, but he must

Stephanie 1:07:57

com What was he saying was distracting,

Dani 1:07:58

right? Is what

Stephanie 1:07:59

you're saying?

Dani 1:07:59

Yeah. I, I don't have any of that information, but what I can say is he was convicted, but I don't like the withholding of the witness, like not the speedy trial. That's my big fucking hangup because I feel like,

Stephanie 1:08:15

and I'm just, this,

Dani 1:08:16

there's a lot of assumption.

Stephanie 1:08:17

It sets an unhealthy precedent for anyone. This if someone's on vacation or sabbatical or your friend that is a free spirit and is living in Taiwan. For now. And that's the, that's the thing that they're saying. They're holding it up for they can keep you jail

Dani 1:08:33

unless your friend is testifying that you said, I'm going to murder her or

Stephanie 1:08:39

Yeah. Where's

Dani 1:08:40

the line? I don't need to listen. Look, I don't need the testimony.

Stephanie 1:08:43

Who is, she lights up every room.

Dani 1:08:45

No, I don't need the testimony that you're like, uh, well, he said she was a bitch

Stephanie 1:08:52

and

Dani 1:08:53

like you're holding up the speedy trial thing.

Stephanie 1:08:56

So to hold up and that's a very dangerous thing.

Dani 1:08:58

So I really wish I knew.

Stephanie 1:09:00

So what we're saying is, or what I'm saying is, I won't speak for you, but I think he absolutely did it. I think he did it intentionally based on all the prev, so many men do not do well with having to face their flaws and that counseling session and then true that, and then having food thrown at you, which even for me as a woman, oh my god. I know she was pregnant. I'm not saying that this is right at all. This is not affecting, but that's like some, some people, it's, if you spit on me, if you, which is another, like mm-hmm. There's things that will make me absolutely, like some people can be a door slammed, like you wanna escalate it. Uh, I've escalate it. Right. So I can see, again, not justifying, but all, all this together. I absolutely think that he did it. I think that he did it on purpose. The speedy trial stuff sucks, and I don't like the precedent that it sets. I don't, again, now if I get a jaywalking ticket and they're like, oh, well your friend that's in Hawaii for the next six months, we can't, they're busy. So I guess you gotta sit here. That's

Dani 1:10:17

a dangerous precedent to set.

Stephanie 1:10:19

Yeah. That's, that's the crux of the argument

Dani 1:10:23

and that's why I found this so interesting is. The trial portion. Right. Because we had that, the new Fetus law. Mm-hmm. That he was convicted on the speedy trial thing, the jury, it, it, it was just very messy.

Stephanie 1:10:41

Yeah. It was a mess front

Dani 1:10:43

to back. Um,

Stephanie 1:10:43

but

Dani 1:10:44

poor Kathleen, I mean,

Stephanie 1:10:46

she didn't deserve this and it horrific and a split second decision that absolutely rocks the community and takes a life. Like, it's terrible that when shit gets this bad, it just, it hurts in so many ways for so many people. So thank you guys for listening. Um,

Dani 1:11:13

thank you to all our new listeners.

Stephanie 1:11:15

Yeah. We've been seeing you guys really pumping up the listen. So if you're a new listener, welcome. If you are an OG listener. Thank you so fucking much. We know that we've got so many that ride for us every week, and I just want you guys to know that we appreciate you. If you're a first time listener, I hope, I hope you enjoyed and we're always open to feedback. you can reach out to us at the Lethal library@gmail.com. We have TikTok, Facebook. That's where we're most active, just trying to make little funny sies for you guys. We love those.

Dani 1:11:51

we make an ass for ourselves for your enjoyment,

Stephanie 1:11:53

and we'll do it again. We will do it again, um, to an extent. Uh, but um, yeah, thank you guys. And that's all I've got for today. How about you, Danny?

Dani 1:12:07

I'm good.

Stephanie 1:12:07

All right, well, ten four rubber ducky. Fuck yeah.

1:12:32

Hey friends, we wanna talk about some of the subjects that are a little bit heavier on our podcast. abuse isn't your fault and there are safe, confidential ways to get help. Domestic violence doesn't always look the same. It isn't just bruises or broken bones. It can be about controlling money, isolating you from your friends, constant surveillance or threats against your kids and pets. Abuse thrives in silence and breaking that silence is the first step to safety. the National Domestic Violence Hotline is available twenty four seven. Call 1 807 9 9 SAFE or 7 2 3 3 or text start to 8 8 7 8 8. You can also chat@thehotline.org. Advocates can help safety plan with you even if you're not ready to leave. If you're worried that your device is being monitored, it may be safest to call. Teens and young adults can also contact. Love is Respect at 8 6 6 3 3 1 9 4 7 4 or text. Love is 2 2 2 5, 2 2. For Native American and Alaska native survivors strong heart's, native helpline offers culturally specific 24 7 support at 8 4 4 7 native. If you are someone near you is in immediate danger, please call 9 1 1. You deserve safety.