64: Breakup to Breakdown: The Fatal Path of Rosencrantz

In this Idaho case from 1983, Kathy Gittel tries to restart her life after leaving Keith Rosencrantz, but he won’t let the relationship end quietly. Dani and Stephanie walk through a string of escalating red flags: tense drop-ins, threats, alcohol-fueled behavior, and the kind of controlling rage that pulls family and bystanders into the blast radius. Then one summer night in Buhl, neighbors hear gunfire and a desperate call for help, launching an investigation with troubling statements, a shotgun at the center of it all, and courtroom twists that had us yelling at our mics. If you think you know where this is headed, wait until you hear what happens once the case hits a jury—and how the judge responds.

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Transcript

Dani 0:01

In the spring of 1983, Kathy Guettel was trying to move on with her life. After ending a troubled relationship with Keith Rosenkranz, she returned to Buhl, Idaho and began rebuilding a sense of normalcy among her family and friends. But as the weeks passed, Rosencrantz refused to let go, and a series of confrontations drew the people around them into an increasingly bad situation. By the beginning of summer, what had started as the collapse of a relationship would leave two people dead

Stephanie 0:39

Again, another one that's escalated quickly it seems.

Dani 0:43

Yes.

Stephanie 0:44

And I like that you called that out because I think that we've probably all had friends, family in a severe bad situation relationship-wise, and how much it affects even the other people around you, even when those two that are involved might think that they're hiding it or getting through it, like-

Dani 1:05

Or that it's done, and it's

Stephanie 1:07

not- Yeah done. No. Everyone else is going through it too when it gets crazy like this. So I like that you, I like that you said that All right, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Lethal Library. I'm Stephanie.

Dani 1:54

And I'm Dani.

Stephanie 1:55

And we do a true crime podcast that is focused on cases in Idaho. sometimes we branch out a bit if we're feeling a little squirrely, but mostly in Idaho.

Dani 2:05

And most of our cases, most people haven't heard of. So a little tickle for your ear. Um- We're also- We're no Dateline, but we're gonna we're gonna find you the cases you hadn't heard before.

Stephanie 2:18

Yes. So. If you want a new case that you have not heard of before, we're your gals. we've got some updates. Dani, what do you, what updates are we in store for?

Dani 2:27

I'd like to give a shout-out to a couple of people.

Stephanie 2:33

Yes.

Dani 2:34

Hey, Donna.

Stephanie 2:36

Donna, what an absolute pleasure.

Dani 2:39

Y- you were fantastic. and it was so nice to meet you. It was awkward for me because- We

Stephanie 2:47

would have never expected it. You gotta tell, you gotta tell the people the basics of what happened.

Dani 2:52

so Donna came up and visited us at our cabin with her husband. Her husband and my husband are friends. And, she was there for several hours, didn't say anything. No. And so we were around the campfire drinking, obviously. Of

Stephanie 3:06

course.

Dani 3:07

And she was talking about things that her and her husband do together, which w- it was a very sweet story, and I'm like, "Oh, Jared would never," because I'm so into murder mysteries, and that's not his jam. She goes... And she's like, "I know. I listen to you."

Stephanie 3:24

And I was like, "Oh, my God." Complete shock for us. So it was kinda fun. Like, this is a first time occurrence for us, meeting someone in a completely different space, chilling, vibing, and then someone saying that they have listened to us. Ah. That, that w- that's not, like, our immediate family, friends. I mean, there's we- there's people that listen. We'll get into more of that later. There's people that we don't know that listen, but we have never met someone- In the wild yes, and she was so fucking cool, and I was just like, "I hope we're not screwing this up. Are we, are we... I, I hope your expectations were met. I hope you don't think we're weirdos." "I hope you had fun, Donna. E- either way, Donna, you are-"

Dani 4:02

I had fun with Donna. She was great. She was so fun.

Stephanie 4:05

What a, what a joy.

Dani 4:06

Yeah, it really was.

Stephanie 4:07

Yeah.

Dani 4:07

We had a good time.

Stephanie 4:08

No, she fit right in. Yeah. I was like, "Girl, maybe you'll be a guest. I don't know. What do you want, what do you want to talk about, sis?" Let's go. "Give us some ideas." Like, it was just thrilling to say the

Dani 4:19

least. It was a fun experience for us. also wanna give a shout-out to our Virginia listeners.

Stephanie 4:24

Excuse me?

Dani 4:25

Thank

Stephanie 4:27

you. Y- y'all have popped off recently. If anyone knows why, we'd love to know why. But Virginia, shout-out to you.

Dani 4:35

That's, like, literally clear across the United States.

Stephanie 4:40

And, like, y'all, y'all knew Idaho was a place? Because listen, and that's not, that's not on them. It's just, it's, like, a common thing. People will be like, "Idaho, do you mean Ohio?"

Dani 4:48

Yeah.

Stephanie 4:48

Iowa?" And it's like- No no, there is another one. It's, it is Idaho.

Dani 4:53

Potato State-

Stephanie 4:53

Yeah

Dani 4:53

over there. So anyway, shout-out to Virginia listeners. we appreciate you. Yeah.

Stephanie 4:58

So. Thank you.

Dani 4:58

And of course we appreciate- All of our listeners, but it's kinda unique to have, uh, our downloads coming from Virginia.

Stephanie 5:06

Yeah.

Dani 5:06

so anyways, you ready to get into it, sis?

Stephanie 5:09

Absolutely.

Dani 5:11

I got one for you today.

Stephanie 5:13

Let's hear it, sis.

Dani 5:17

Sources used today are articles from South Idaho Press, the Idaho Statesman, Times News, and Buhl Herald.

Stephanie 5:27

Hell yeah, brothers and sisters.

Dani 5:29

We're gonna go back to 1983. Way, way back.

Stephanie 5:34

The good old days.

Dani 5:35

That's when they wrote everything in the papers. It was fantastic.

Stephanie 5:37

Oh, they were so juicy.

Dani 5:39

They were juicy. In mid-May 1983, Kathy Cattell moved out of the mobile home she had shared with Keith Rosencrans near Castleford and returned to her residence in Buhl. But the separation did not end the contact between them.

Stephanie 5:57

It rarely does.

Dani 5:59

During that Memorial Day weekend, Rosencrans went to the home of Kathy's sister, Cindy And Kathy was not there when he arrived. Rosencrans asked Cindy whether Kathy was going with another man Rosencrantz didn't leave, and he waited for Cathy to return home. And when she did arrive, despite her sister's objections, she left with Rosencrantz for a ride

Stephanie 6:29

You know, it's a tale as old as time, and I know that some of our listeners, if you've been listening to us for a while, or for those that have unfortunately had their lives touched by domestic violence, either through themselves or through a family member, friend, whatever, you've heard it 100 times. The most dangerous time is when you're leaving, and it takes, I think, an average of seven times for most women to fully disconnect from their abuser, and that is intentional. The abuser has made it difficult in every single way to that if you don't have a shitload of money, if you don't have a shitload of resources, it takes so long of planning to be able to do this successfully and safely. And also People want to give the benefit of the doubt. So- They wanna, they, they wanna say, "They've convinced me. They've to- promised me. They've done, they've done

Dani 7:25

XYZ" Because this domestic, it doesn't necessarily mean violent.

Stephanie 7:29

Yeah.

Dani 7:30

He, he, he- Emotionally I don't, in my research, I, I didn't see where he had beat her before or anything like that. It's kinda stalker-ish vibes, which then should be very scary to you as well.

Stephanie 7:42

Controlling.

Dani 7:43

Right. That is still a form of abuse.

Stephanie 7:46

Financial abuse.

Dani 7:47

Yes.

Stephanie 7:48

Yes.

Dani 7:48

So, but she was,

Stephanie 7:51

s-

Dani 7:51

said, "I don't think you should," but she left anyway. And look, you do you. I've

Stephanie 7:57

done this to my friends where I'm like-

Dani 8:00

Mm

Stephanie 8:01

This is stupid, but you're your own woman, and at the end of the day, we're all adults, right?"

Dani 8:04

Right.

Stephanie 8:05

Y- I can't control you.

Dani 8:07

You can't handcuff them to the couch.

Stephanie 8:10

I mean, I suppose you could, but then you could be in for charges. And listen, I've thought about it in a few different situations where I'm like, "Bitch," lovingly-

Dani 8:19

Right

Stephanie 8:19

No the fuck you don't."

Dani 8:21

And then what effect does

Stephanie 8:24

that- Then, then it makes it, then they're, then they're scared to tell you things.

Dani 8:27

Yeah.

Stephanie 8:28

And so you, as a friend or family member, you tr- you try your best- It's a

Dani 8:32

fine line to walk.

Stephanie 8:33

Yeah. For

Dani 8:33

sure. For sure.

Stephanie 8:34

So I know many of you have been there. If it sounds repetitive, I think it's because it bears repeating because if someone who's never been through this before goes through domestic violence or if someone who's a younger woman, when you're young, you think this shit is normal. It is not normal. So that, that is the point. So thanks for listening to us as a broken record, but it needs to be said.

Dani 8:58

About an hour later, she came running back through the door.

Stephanie 9:01

Oh, shit.

Dani 9:03

Cindy said Cathy was quite hysterical and upset, and her nose was bleeding. Rosencrans came in behind her, and an argument broke out. Rose-

Stephanie 9:13

The audacity.

Dani 9:14

Rosencrans pushed Cathy onto a bed and began hitting her with her fists. "I was fighting him on the back trying to get him off of her," Cindy said. Cindy screamed for Elroy Keen, who had come with Rosencrans to the house, but Keen had passed out. Bro.

Stephanie 9:36

Damn it.

Dani 9:37

The struggle continued until Rosencrans finally calmed down, and afterwards Cindy left the two talking. In the days that followed, Kathy became nervous and frightened, and was avoiding Rosencrans. Fair. Yeah. She literally was bleeding, getting attacked, and she's like, "I'm done." And I bet you sis was like, "Told you."

Stephanie 10:02

Lovingly. Right. But yes, I've had to have that conversation too. I've had... And the- just the audacity when, when people are willing to do it in front of other people that they know wouldn't approve. Yeah. Like, especially women, 'cause unfortunately-

Dani 10:18

And-

Stephanie 10:19

sometimes men w- do not act in these and, and they're like, "It's not my place." Whereas women, I'm- not all the time, but women are usually the ones to be like, "What the fuck?"

Dani 10:31

And also, in f- uh, in front of another guy, even... He was passed out, but he was there.

Stephanie 10:38

He could've woken up- Yeah and he's willing to

Dani 10:39

do it. And did he even care that he was passed out? That's what-

Stephanie 10:42

Right

Dani 10:43

like- You

Stephanie 10:44

wonder.

Dani 10:45

Uh-huh.

Stephanie 10:46

But yeah. No, I've, I've had a personal situation where I have had to... Some- someone grew, I knew they were abusive, they grew more and more bold, and to the point where I had to take a frying pan and threaten, 'cause, like, a very similar thing happened. I had to like, be like, "I'm going to knock you out with a cast iron pan."

Dani 11:06

Stop.

Stephanie 11:06

You need to leave now."

Dani 11:08

Right now.

Stephanie 11:08

Because it was that urgent, and it's just wild to me that-

Dani 11:15

The audacity to-

Stephanie 11:15

When someone's at that point-

Dani 11:17

Mm-hmm

Stephanie 11:17

that is bad, bad, bad.

Dani 11:20

Don't

Stephanie 11:20

give a- It doesn't have to get- They

Dani 11:21

don't give a shit- Yeah who's there, what they're doing. They're just gonna do what they wanna do. It's- It's definitely

Stephanie 11:25

it's always bad. Try to leave at the first signs of weirdness, but if you don't and this type of shit's happening...

Dani 11:33

Well, now she's scared.

Stephanie 11:36

Yes.

Dani 11:36

Now she's scared. She's like, "Okay. I'm avoiding-

Stephanie 11:41

Mm-hmm

Dani 11:41

him." On May 28th, Rosencrans and Elroy were driving through Jarbidge, Nevada-

Stephanie 11:49

Mm

Dani 11:49

when Rosencrans suddenly grabbed a baseball bat and smashed the windshield of his own vehicle. When Elroy asked, "What are you doing?" Rosencrans said that he had heard Kathy rode home from Castleford to Buell with another man. And this is where the guys need to step up to their man- to their, to

Stephanie 12:10

their guys. Their friends, and be like, "Um, sorry-" Date "bruh. That was fucking weird and not cool."

Dani 12:15

Yeah

Stephanie 12:19

I hate, I hate-

Dani 12:21

You're gonna hate this

Stephanie 12:22

I hate these emotional outbursts for no reason from women or men.

Dani 12:28

They're literally not

Stephanie 12:29

even- But I'm just like- They weren't

Dani 12:30

even there. It's not like he, and not that this is an excuse, like, he didn't walk into a restaurant and see her on a da- Like, they were out in the middle of the desert. I don't even know where Jarb

Stephanie 12:41

Ridge- I've been, I've been there. It's desolate. It, there's nothing. It's,

Dani 12:44

there's

Stephanie 12:44

a reservoir there. Okay. Yeah, I was- But

Dani 12:46

I mean, it's close to Idaho Yeah.

Stephanie 12:47

It is. It is. Okay. We went there camping as kids. Mm-hmm.

Dani 12:50

Yeah.

Stephanie 12:51

And I think it's j- it's almost pronounced, like, from what I'm told, don't kill me about this, correct us on our email if we're wrong, but it's almost pronounced like garbage, Jarbidge.

Dani 13:01

Oh.

Stephanie 13:02

I don't know. We'll find out, I'm sure.

Dani 13:06

Well, no, that's gonna be the only time I talk about that.

Stephanie 13:09

Okay.

Dani 13:09

Well, actually during the trial, but-

Stephanie 13:10

Bye, bye

Dani 13:10

Jarbidge Bye. Um, huge red flag, though.

Stephanie 13:16

Yeah. Very, very fucking weird. I hate that type of out- Like, some people do it for a, a game that their team lost- Right and they're smashing up all their valuables. Stop. Very weird behavior. Don't do that.

Dani 13:32

In early June, Rosencrans went to Kathy's house in Buhl and began pounding on the door. He yelled, "Let me in or I'll blow my way in." Around the same time period, a Buhl police officer encountered Rosencrans while he was intoxicated and sitting beside a rifle in his vehicle.

Stephanie 13:54

Hello.

Dani 13:56

When the officer questioned him about the weapon, Rosencrans told him to take it because he was gonna go out and shoot himself The officer found him drunk but coherent

Stephanie 14:08

Hello, 24-hour grippy sock motel immediate. And listen, I'm not saying this as if it's a bad thing. Like, sometimes you need professional intervention- Mm-hmm and for your own safety and the safety of others. And

Dani 14:25

you know what? I'm just saying this is 83. If it happened now, it, it would be-

Stephanie 14:28

And if it happened to a woman, look up early history and hysteria in women. Disagreeing with your husband, you're hysterical. We're gonna shock therapy the f- that the fuck right out of you.

Dani 14:41

A little lobotomy.

Stephanie 14:41

Yeah. L- little lobot, yeah.

Dani 14:44

Let's go.

Stephanie 14:46

And that was a... So I'm just...

Dani 14:50

The police officer, though, did, like, look-

Stephanie 14:52

Did you find a story with all the things to piss me the fuck off, Dani? I

Dani 14:55

might have.

Stephanie 14:56

You little shit.

Dani 14:57

There is a little shining star in here, though, I think you'll be happy with.

Stephanie 15:00

Okay, I'll, I'll keep hope for that little morsel.

Dani 15:04

But the officer did take him, uh- Okay. Okay during the, during the trip to the police station, Rosencrans talked about Cathy leaving him, and he didn't care what happened to him anymore, and repeatedly said he was gonna shoot himself.

Stephanie 15:20

Do you mind reminding me how old he is? I just wanna know. Do you know?

Dani 15:25

So she was 30 and He was 32.

Stephanie 15:37

Okay

Dani 15:39

30 as well.

Stephanie 15:39

As well. I got you. I got you.

Dani 15:42

Okay.

Stephanie 15:43

So he, at this time Cathy was 30 and he was 30 as well during this whole-

Dani 15:49

Yeah

Stephanie 15:49

shebang, just to give a little m- more context which- Back then wasn't considered young. You were supposed to be already settled, have your life figured out.

Dani 16:01

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 16:02

But even now, I'm like, you're still p- everyone's still learning. I'm still learning. I'm not 30 at, by any means, and like-

Dani 16:10

But 30 in '83 was like 50 now.

Stephanie 16:13

I feel like this, this sounds so much more like a 20-year-old story of, like, just the big- Mm emotions and the not knowing how to handle them and-

Dani 16:21

No.

Stephanie 16:22

Yeah, this is really unfortunate.

Dani 16:25

On June 18th, Cindy left her home, that's Sis.

Stephanie 16:29

Mm-hmm.

Dani 16:30

Left home to attend her daughter's dance recital. As she was leaving, Michael Lee arrived at her house. And so Kathy said, "Um, bye Sis, I'm gonna hang out with Michael, thank you." Um, and she didn't go to the recital.

? 16:50

Okay.

Dani 16:51

So obviously somebody she was interested in. I totally pass. Totally pass. I'd be like, "Yeah, I'm staying home with this cute guy who I find fun and exciting. We'll see you later."

Stephanie 17:06

Yeah. As one would.

Dani 17:09

Yeah. Newly dating. It's so fun.

Stephanie 17:11

W- and Dani knows this about me, 'cause I shared it with her about 10 minutes ago, is that- Kids' birthday parties, I will go. Don't always want to go. Love your kid. I truly love your kid. Love our one-on-one time. Love spending some hours together. Kid party with twen- 20 kids, I'll do it, and I will, I will, I will act accordingly harmful to my soul

Dani 17:44

You have to decompress like a car.

Stephanie 17:45

Yeah, true. I, I need three to five business days of no contact from, from anyone Children or adults. So I know that sounds like maybe so ba- like, "Oh, poor baby of me." I just know myself, and I wanna support your kid. I will support your kid in so many- But, but if- In so many other ways

Dani 18:04

But then if you have a fun thing to...

Stephanie 18:06

Yeah.

Dani 18:07

No. Like, oh, this cute guy that I like- Yeah is here. Uh, I'm gonna pass. I'll pass. I'm gonna hang out with the cute guy, thank you.

Stephanie 18:16

Yeah, I'm good. So totally relatable- Let's go girl.

Dani 18:22

That same night, Rosencrantz spent some time drinking at a Castleberry's bar- Not good with friends, including Elroy, sidekick. At one point, he handed Elroy his car keys and said, "You put these somewhere so I won't go anywhere tonight."

Stephanie 18:42

This is the most mature thing I have heard out of this person, so props there

Dani 18:47

But later, Rosencranz found the keys and... Uh-oh

Stephanie 18:51

As a drunk person does. Drunk, when... Listen, and I know this about myself, when I'm drunk, I'm sneakier. Yeah. I'm, you cannot tell me it's harder to tell me no. You can't

Dani 19:00

drop them

Stephanie 19:00

in the hall by the

Dani 19:00

front door. You

Stephanie 19:00

can't reason with people.

Dani 19:01

No. And- You can't be like, «Take these from me and go put them on your bedroom dresser if you're partying at your house» No Like,

Stephanie 19:08

the drunk person- They gotta be hidden, lock and key.

Dani 19:09

Yep.

Stephanie 19:09

No option.

Dani 19:10

Did I...

Stephanie 19:13

Tell me.

Dani 19:13

That happened one time to our friends. I'm not gonna say. You're gonna know who I'm talking about.

Stephanie 19:19

I need to know.

Dani 19:20

Hiding keys, and they've never found them.

Stephanie 19:25

Oh, fuck, 'cause everyone was too drunk. They're like, "I'm, I'm there for you. I will put these where you... I'm your gal. I'm your guy. I'm doing it." And then it's like, shit, where-

Dani 19:35

They're still in their

Stephanie 19:35

house where, where did those go?

Dani 19:37

They're still in their house. I ask them every once in a while. This is like- Did you ever

Stephanie 19:41

find?

Dani 19:42

No.

Stephanie 19:43

What if they do throw them in, like, an abandoned well? They're like, "We're going. We're walking three miles. We're going to the abandoned well. We're putting a, weights on them. We're, we're gonna, we're taking the welder. We're gonna melt these bitches. They will never have these. They're not driving tonight." And you know what? An inconvenience, sure, but that's a real friend. That's a real friend.

Dani 20:06

It was actually-

Stephanie 20:07

I hid them so good, I couldn't, I couldn't give them to you if you had a gun to my head.

Dani 20:12

That was-

Stephanie 20:12

You're not drunk driving. You know what? That's true friendship.

Dani 20:16

Could not find them, still to this day. Yeah.

Stephanie 20:20

I hope you don't ever have to use measures this big on, on, on me. I don't think I

Dani 20:24

will.

Stephanie 20:24

But if you did- You'd lock me in the barn we'd, we'd make it, we would absolutely make it through. Definitely. And I'd be like, "Sis, you did what had to be done, clearly, so..."

Dani 20:35

This is where shit goes to shit.

Stephanie 20:38

Fuck.

Dani 20:40

Shortly after 9:00 PM on June 18th, 1983, Rosencranz left that Castleford bar and drove away. Back in Buell, Kathy was still at her house with Michael and her young child.

Stephanie 20:57

Ruh-roh.

Dani 20:58

At approximately 9:30, a neighbor, A.H. Metzler, heard three gunshots in rapid succession coming from the direction of Kathy's house. And about 15 minutes later, Metzler and his wife heard someone calling for help. So Metzler- left his house and went to go investigate because look, even where I li- I hear gunshots sometimes. Like-

Stephanie 21:25

Or you will... People do fireworks at, it's not 4th of July, it's not New Year's- Mm-hmm it's not graduation time where you're like... They just found in their garage some fireworks.

Dani 21:37

But even at- Or something the cowboy guys go up and just shoot it.

Stephanie 21:40

Yeah.

Dani 21:40

And you're just like, "Okay."

Stephanie 21:42

Pop, pop, pop.

Dani 21:43

Pop, pop, pop. Oh, somebody got a new gun. Somebody's-

Stephanie 21:46

Yeah

Dani 21:47

you know, whatever. But when he heard, the neighbor heard somebody screaming for help- He's like, "Oh, geez" he's like,

Stephanie 21:52

All right." Yeah.

Dani 21:54

Shit ditz, I gotta go."

Stephanie 21:55

Should go, yeah. Good, good on them 'cause the bystander effect is real.

Dani 21:59

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So when Metzler reached the residence, he found a badly injured Rosencrans lying near the doorway with blood all around him. Metzler asked if he needed help, obviously. Uh, Rosencrans said, "Help me, I've killed them all." Metzler turned him because he appeared to be having difficult breathing. It's like he didn't really see what was going on.

Stephanie 22:29

Yeah.

Dani 22:30

And then Rosencrans said, "Why did I do it? I loved her."

Stephanie 22:37

This is so weird. This is like someone that has just a fucking weird view of reality. It's almost like a villain monologue, like trying to romanticize, explain away, and make... What, who does this?

Dani 22:54

So from where the neighbor stood, he could see Kathy's body inside, but he didn't go in. He's like, "I'm calling the popo. I got an injured guy here saying he's... I loved her too much," OJ. Yeah. Police officers, deputies, and emergency personnel responded to the scene and found Kathy and Michael dead inside the residence. Both had been shot in the chest with a 12-gauge shotgun.

Stephanie 23:27

Oh, my God.

Dani 23:28

And there was a young child inside the home, but they were unharmed. I don't know how old they were from my research. I don't know if they were a boy or girl. I'm unsure, but there was a young child.

Stephanie 23:44

That's honestly surprising at this time that they didn't release and- Yeah sensationalize that more. I was. I

Dani 23:50

was surprised.

Stephanie 23:51

But I can respect it because I can only imagine being in that position for, like, a pretty big event/story and easily Googleable in these days of, you know, I'm tr- people don't wanna talk about this stuff, and then people can find that out in one second. I'm... So I'm glad.

Dani 24:17

I couldn't find an obit for, just so you know, I couldn't find an obit for either of the victims.

Stephanie 24:22

Really?

Dani 24:23

No. It was weird. This whole thing is... The ending's weird too, so just so you know. Okay. But... So near the front door, officers found Rosencrantz suffering from a severe wound beneath his left arm. A 12-gauge pump-action shotgun was recovered from the house as investigators photographed the scene, marked evidence, and documented the positions of the bodies and other items found in the home. Rosencrans was transported for medical treatment while officers remained at the residence throughout the night. The wound beneath his arm was extensive and he remained hospitalized as the investigation continued. During the examination of the shotgun, officers lifted fingerprints from the weapon. A distinguishable print was recovered from the barrel, but it didn't match Rosencrans.

Stephanie 25:18

Interesting.

Dani 25:19

Investigators also attempted to trace the ownership of the shotgun, but the weapon was so old that efforts to identify the history through federal records were unsuccessful Even now you don't have to register. Well, in Idaho

Stephanie 25:37

It's a little Wild Wild West-y out here

Dani 25:39

Personal sales you don't have to-

Stephanie 25:41

No record it And there's been other...

Dani 25:44

When I bought mine at the gun show and I had to fill it out, 'cause that

Stephanie 25:49

was- But I don't, I think that they are doing more than it's even what is expected if you're doing that.

Dani 25:54

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 25:55

Maybe a CYA thing to, for their own liability- Yeah is what I would guess, of being like, "Yeah, we're not required, but we're doing this so that you know that, not ours, buddy." Um-

Dani 26:06

But personal gun sales here you do not have- Yeah to do that.

Stephanie 26:10

And we saw that in a couple cases, like the guy that met a guy in a parking lot- Mm-hmm to buy a gun and thought it was all, like, no one would ever find out, and sometimes you don't.

Dani 26:18

Yeah. That guy kept a receipt. Ah. Smart.

Stephanie 26:23

Big brain on Brad over here.

Dani 26:24

Yeah.

Stephanie 26:25

Another thing I just gotta say that I think is such a mistake in Idaho, the concealed carry without having to get a permit. There is just so much valuable information you learn from a concealed carry course- Yeah when it used to be required. Because so many people out here think that you can just shoot someone if they step on your lawn, if they are off the sidewalk, and you can just shoot. No, they tell

Dani 26:51

you- I don't think the education hurt anybody, but, uh, you can frankly And look, I've walked into the Wally World-

Stephanie 26:59

Yeah

Dani 26:59

and saw the guy carrying the gun. Uh, I was actually just in Albertson's last weekend Look I don't like how he's carrying the gun. It felt weird to me.

Stephanie 27:11

Mm-hmm.

Dani 27:11

Just because I normally... I... We live here.

Stephanie 27:15

Yeah.

Dani 27:15

We see guns.

Stephanie 27:16

We, we do.

Dani 27:16

We see 'em on their hip. He had it tucked inside of his pants.

Stephanie 27:20

That's just not professional- Thank you to me.

Dani 27:23

If

Stephanie 27:23

you're... And listen, if you wanna put it in your pants, no shade, but I feel like if you're a s- if you are a serious gun owner and have good intentions, like concealed carry for women, hun- like most women are not shoot- I'm sorry, but factually, they're not, they're not shooting up, doing mass shootings. Like, and I don't think that most women are carrying around a gun to be nefarious. They're- No they are truly doing it for protection of themselves and others around them. I like the

Dani 27:57

guy wearing the flannel and a side holster.

Stephanie 27:59

Yeah. I-

Dani 28:00

I'm digging that.

Stephanie 28:01

If it's a woman and you have the special concealed carry for your purse that you can lock so your kids can't get into it, but you could get into it if you needed it or has like- I

Dani 28:09

love

? 28:09

that too

Stephanie 28:10

Slay, queen.

Dani 28:11

Do not... It was weird. Putting it in

Stephanie 28:14

your waistband is very, like it, it just gives, "I'm not a serious gun owner"- I, I was- which I want the serious gun owners-

Dani 28:24

To be-

Stephanie 28:25

carrying.

Dani 28:26

Yeah.

Stephanie 28:26

I,

Dani 28:27

I-

Stephanie 28:27

Cause I- I know it's America, I know it's freedom. I, yeah.

Dani 28:30

I just feel like in the wa- in inside the waistband is weird.

Stephanie 28:36

Yeah.

Dani 28:36

It's weird. 'Cause you can see the handle, right?

Stephanie 28:40

It's very casual. It'd be like us in a corporate environment answering a VP's email being like, "Yeah, bruh. 10-4." Thank you.

Dani 28:51

Exactly.

Stephanie 28:51

Um, we're, we're clo- we're clocking it all day around here. The other company is not only chopped, but also unk. You would never fucking do... It's very casual. Like, if you wanna be seen as a professional or responsible-

Dani 29:06

Have a holster, side hip

Stephanie 29:08

and the per- that person could very well be a very responsible person, but why would you carry it like that?

Dani 29:13

It looks very, uh-

Stephanie 29:14

And it's, mm.

Dani 29:17

No. I didn't feel safe.

Stephanie 29:17

What, what purpose?

Dani 29:18

No, look- What purpose is it serving? if I see the guy in the flannel with a side-

Stephanie 29:22

S-

Dani 29:22

arm-

Stephanie 29:23

Proper sidearm carrying,

Dani 29:24

yeah

Stephanie 29:25

I'm like,

Dani 29:25

I do not mind walking behind this guy. The guy with it in his side of his pants, I'm like,

Stephanie 29:30

What are you doing, bruh?

Dani 29:33

What are you even-

Stephanie 29:33

Like, like what's next? Do we, do we loop in the little trigger thing, the, the loop onto our keychain?

Dani 29:40

Yeah, just carry it around.

Stephanie 29:41

Well, what if you saw a little girly girl that's like, "Oh, I've got my cute keychain and also there's a gun attached to it." Just like, that's just- It's- yeah, sure, it's very cutesy, very camp, honestly. I wanna s- I wanna see someone do that just for fun, but are you, are you... It, it's just not giving...

Dani 29:59

Did not feel safe. It felt weird. Honestly. I'm like, ew, literally ick. Like-

Stephanie 30:06

The ick, yes. Why

Dani 30:07

are you doing that?

Stephanie 30:08

Yeah.

Dani 30:09

It, ugh vomited all over

Stephanie 30:12

Like, are we, are you not an adult grown man? Why... Help me understand. Why, why, why was that- It

Dani 30:19

was, don't you think, but do you think that was weird?

Stephanie 30:21

Yes. It's a choice and I wanna know why you made that choice.

Dani 30:24

Bad choice. And he had a belt on.

Stephanie 30:26

Hello? A g- gun-

Dani 30:29

You can afford the gun, but you can't afford the holster? The,

Stephanie 30:31

the little hol- Stop. There's, holsters are very affordable.

Dani 30:36

You- I think I paid, like, for my little one that I have, camp, I think I paid, like, fucking $20 or more.

Stephanie 30:41

Yeah.

Dani 30:42

Cause I really don't even want it anymore.

Stephanie 30:44

And it's more effective and it's safer for not only you, like-

Dani 30:48

You wanna shoot your dick off?

Stephanie 30:50

Or if you're- What if you're... Yes, that, or if you're running, it can wiggle itself on out of there. You drop it- It, it just- lose

Dani 30:57

it anyway, I, I probably should have snuck a picture, but I didn't. But anyway, it was fucking weird. I just have to say.

Stephanie 31:05

We agree, yes.

Dani 31:06

But let's get back to this motherfucker.

Stephanie 31:08

Let's go.

Dani 31:10

Following the shooting, Rosencrans was in serious condition- Wow at Magic Valley Regional Medical Center with a shotgun wound to the left shoulder area.

Stephanie 31:21

So strange.

Dani 31:24

Well...

Stephanie 31:26

He was trying to- Yeah okay, so maybe not, okay, not-

Dani 31:30

But it was a shotgun.

Stephanie 31:31

Okay.

Dani 31:31

Not-

Stephanie 31:33

Not ideal for that purpose

Dani 31:34

not ideal. Yeah. Uh, and also not a full thought process about that.

Stephanie 31:40

No, it was not happening, no.

Dani 31:43

Prosecutors filed two counts of first-degree murder, and plans were made to arraign him in his hospital room.

Stephanie 31:49

Damn.

Dani 31:49

Go Idaho.

Stephanie 31:51

And in these times, there was no Zoom meetings. You can't just jump on a quick court Zoom.

Dani 31:57

As court officials learned more about the extent of his injuries, they concluded he posed no security risk and that formal proceedings could wait. So they're like, "Fuck this guy. He ain't going nowhere. We're not gonna file anything yet."

Stephanie 32:10

Okay. I, I mean, okay.

Dani 32:12

On June 21st, prosecutors moved to squash the a- arrest warrant. The murder charges remained on file, but the action allowed authorities to discontinue the armed guard stationed outside Rosencrans' room. And if you listen to any of our podcasts from the fucking '80s, everybody's so worried about tax dollars being spent on these criminals.

Stephanie 32:34

To the point where with no money, there's nothing

Dani 32:38

to stop them. They're actually getting loans to pay for prosecution and defense, or well, mostly defense, uh, because- Yes these are, these are very small counties. And so they're like, "Oh, well, doctor said he ain't-" They're like- go nowhere, so let's cut off that 24-hour security."

Stephanie 32:54

Yeah. And they're like, "Yes, I know someone died. That sucks, but also-"

Dani 32:59

He's not going anywhere, so..."

Stephanie 33:01

Could we just..."

Dani 33:03

We're sick of paying for the 24-hour guard, or police officer."

Stephanie 33:06

Truly. No, they're- And the budget is tight, so I get it

Dani 33:14

Prosecutor Harry DeHaan told the court that Rosencrans was not a security risk and that the taxpayers could not bear the cost of 24-hour supervision while he remained confined to intensive care. Buell officers removed their guard from the hospital, and Rosencrans remained under treatment while the murder charges were pending Over the following days, authorities continued monitoring Rosencrantz's condition. Prosecutors received updates several times each day from the doctors while they treated him. By early July, hospital officials advised that Rosencrantz's condition had improved, and that he would be released within a few days.

Stephanie 33:59

Okay, are we locking it down? 'Cause I'm, I... This is the era of escapes, escapes, escapes, escapes, escapes, escapes.

Dani 34:07

You're gonna have to-

Stephanie 34:08

I'm, this is, I have, I'm- You're gonna

Dani 34:09

feel good about

Stephanie 34:09

this for a minute I'm very much, I'm very much concerned. You're

Dani 34:12

gonna feel good about it for a minute.

Stephanie 34:12

Okay. Okay. I'm, I'm very much concerned.

Dani 34:14

Uh, prosecutors immediately sought another arrest warrant, arguing that his recovery now created the possibility of flight. Rosencrantz was rearrested in his hospital room less than 15 minutes after the warrant was issued.

Stephanie 34:29

Okay, and you know what? I, I'm worried, because it really was the era of everyone was escaping everywhere.

Dani 34:38

There's gonna be something that pisses you off.

Stephanie 34:40

It was- But we'll get there it was very trendy and it was very doable.

Dani 34:44

No. And, uh, they ha- we had that one in southwest Idaho where they fucking let him go, and then he went and killed more... Oh, Mr. Worldwide.

Stephanie 34:54

He's like, "I'm gonna take this to the a-"

Dani 34:55

The prosecuting attorney was like, "Literally, we should not let him go." And the judge was like, "Nah." And then he went and killed more people-

Stephanie 35:03

Yeah

Dani 35:03

in fucking South Africa.

Stephanie 35:05

Well, and also, I know it's, it's our first case. It's a huge case. Creach.

Dani 35:10

Mm-hmm. Murdering

Stephanie 35:12

the fuck. So many times given the opportunity to not be going to jail immediately, and

Dani 35:20

boop. What about Mont Wheeler, who fucking faked his illness?

Stephanie 35:23

Oh my God, yes.

Dani 35:25

Anyway. Ugh.

Stephanie 35:26

Pe- people be creative. Everybody's so creative, and so I'm like, when you're saying this, it might not go that way. That's okay. But I'm immediately like, "Oh, fuck."

Dani 35:36

No, they reinstated that 24-hour guard.

Stephanie 35:39

And they did the thing. Boom. And they said, they said, boom, 15 minutes.

Dani 35:42

Cause the doctors were like, "Bro, he's not going anywhere. Like, seriously." Yeah. Uh, on July 5th, the arraignment that had earlier been postponed finally took place in a room at the Magic Valley Regional Medical Center rather than a courtroom. They're like,

Stephanie 35:57

We're, we'll come to you."

Dani 35:57

Yeah. Thank you. Dr. Rodney Swartley informed Judge Charles Brumbaugh- Yeah, something that Rosencrantz's condition would not interfere with his understanding of the proceedings, which is important for appeals, appeals, appeals, appeals. Medically

Stephanie 36:11

cleared, folks.

Dani 36:13

Prosecutors charged him with two counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of Kathy and Michael. The charges carried the possibility of the death penalty. No bond was set because the charges were capital offenses

Stephanie 36:28

So they said, "No chance."

Dani 36:30

You're going straight to jail, motherfucker. Yeah. Rosencrans waived his right to a preliminary hearing within the 14 days, and prosecutors said he'd be transferred directly to jail once the doctors actually discharged him from the hospital.

Stephanie 36:43

Okay. Okay. His- I like this. I like

Dani 36:46

this he, he was not ready, but the doctor said, "He, he will be ready."

Stephanie 36:50

They said, "Well, we are going to keep you posted."

Dani 36:54

But fun fact for me, the wound eventually cost Rosencrans his left arm

Stephanie 37:06

Whoopsie No, no getting around that

Dani 37:11

Sorry about your luck, bro

Stephanie 37:12

Yeah

Dani 37:14

Sorry about your luck

Stephanie 37:17

Once released from the hospital,

Dani 37:19

Rosencrans was held in Twin Falls County Jail without bond while the case proceeded for a preliminary

Stephanie 37:28

Because we are not letting you out on bond if it's a maybe de- It's

Dani 37:32

a capital crime

Stephanie 37:33

death, death penalty, not a you're burnt. On September 16th,

Dani 37:37

83, Stoker appeared before the magistrate Judge Michael Redman and asked that the bond be set at $20,000. Stoker argued, I don't Well-

Stephanie 37:54

And back then that was big

Dani 37:55

it, it's '83

Stephanie 37:57

bigger.

Dani 37:57

Bigger. Stoker argued that the death appeared to be a crime of passion and told the court statistics showed the likelihood of a similar incident occurring again was minimal.

Stephanie 38:10

I don't give a shit about any of that fuck.

Dani 38:13

He also pointed out that the authorities had removed guards from Rosencrans' hospital room for a period of time, and that Rosencrans had made no attempt to fl-

Stephanie 38:21

he

Dani 38:22

lost his fucking arm.

Stephanie 38:23

That they are using that as like a, "Well, he could have certainly got aw- they, they left, they, they said they don't need security."

Dani 38:31

He literally shot himself- Yeah in the armpit, a monster arm.

Stephanie 38:34

He's an amputee essentially, and they-

Dani 38:40

Where was he gonna go?

Stephanie 38:41

He was incapacitated. I- if you have someone in a coma and you don't have guards, they're like, "They didn't use guards." Obviously not, they're not in a coma anymore Sorry we are, just so you guys know, again, I know we've talked about it, but we're, we're exceptionally, um

Dani 39:09

We cocktail, but we're cocktailing

Stephanie 39:10

Yes, and we're, I feel like, I, I won't speak for you, Dani, but on the verge of a possible mentee bee. We don't, I'm not wanting

Dani 39:19

it- So that you've had a thing

Stephanie 39:20

I don't want anyone to call for

Dani 39:22

me. You're gonna be so mad. Okay, this is gonna be

Stephanie 39:24

good. I feel in control, but let's, let's level set. Let's put a pin in that. Let's circle back

Dani 39:32

He also pointed out to the authorities, right, had removed those guards and that he didn't attempt to flee. But the deputy prosecutor, Candace Kemp, opposed that request. "I think he's a time bomb, and it's necessary for the public to have him under lock and key," Kemp told the court. Kemp argued that the nature of the charges alone justified continued confinement. She also pointed out to the evidence prosecutors intended to present during trial, including testimony concerning the threats Rosenkranz allegedly made before the shooting.

Stephanie 40:10

Exactly. Like, yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Dani 40:14

But Redman denied the request for bond and left Rosenkans- Rosenkranz in custody.

Stephanie 40:20

Thank you.

Dani 40:21

Yeah The case proceeded to a preliminary hearing the following month. During the hearing, prosecutors outlined the evidence they intended to present at trial, including the testimony concerning Rosencrans' relationship with Kathy, the Memorial Day assault, that was bad-

Stephanie 40:41

Hello

Dani 40:41

so bad.

Stephanie 40:42

Yes.

Dani 40:42

The threats made at Kathy's residence, bad, and the statements witnesses heard following the shootings.

Stephanie 40:49

So TLDR, bad, bad, bad.

Dani 40:54

He literally... Yeah, it's... At the conclusion of the hearing, Redman found sufficient evidence to proceed, 'cause it's preliminary, right? So- Because

Stephanie 41:03

hello, yes. Yeah.

Dani 41:05

Rosencrans was bound over to Fifth District Court on two counts of first-degree murder. In November, Rosencrans appeared before District Judge Robert Newhouse, he's been in other fucking episodes- Yep,

Stephanie 41:18

we've heard that name

Dani 41:19

and entered pleas of not guilty to both charges. While awaiting trial, Rosencrans remained in the Twin Falls County Jail. Prosecutors continued preparing a death penalty prosecution while Stoker assembled the defense case and saw additional opportunities to secure his client's release. He is still trying to get bond. That defense attorney-

Stephanie 41:44

Wild. Wild

Dani 41:45

is literally a- Defensing yeah. He's def- the defense is defensing.

Stephanie 41:49

Which is good. I know it sounds... It's so frustrating.

Dani 41:53

And I think Stoker's been in other episodes, too.

Stephanie 41:56

Mm-hmm, I agree.

Dani 41:57

Because, you know, the Times News, I said They've been doing me good. Yeah, slay queen. In January 1984, Stoker renewed his request for bond before Fifth District Judge Theron Ward. Rosenkranz's mother, Peggy Gonnerman, testified that she, her husband, and her mother were willing to pledge family property as security for a bond. She told the court Rosenkranz could live and work at the family farm if released. And this is a thing that, that I absolutely guarantee they had a big family farm down... This, that, that area, right?

Stephanie 42:41

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I'm just... Yeah. I, I understand supporting your family, but even if-

Dani 42:52

He's literally on fucking first-degree murder charges, which, like-

Stephanie 42:58

And with a semi- That's

Dani 42:59

not bondable

Stephanie 43:00

w- with a semi-admission of guilt confession- Yeah in my opinion.

Dani 43:05

I did it 'cause I loved her too much. Whatever. no good. No good. Uh, Attorney Stoker argued that Rosencrans had strong family ties and no history suggesting he would flee. M- Twin Falls County Sheriff deputy and jailer Gary Stringer testified that he had known Rosencrans before the shootings, 'cause it's a small county-

Stephanie 43:26

Mm-hmm

Dani 43:27

and he didn't believe that he would attempt to escape. He literally testified that, the sheriff. Rosencrans also took the stand. He described a criminal record consisting primarily of misdemeanor traffic offenses and a conviction for driving under the in- a DUI. Um- DUIs.

Stephanie 43:50

Multiple DUIs, folks. Maybe. I'm, I'm lying.

Dani 43:55

It just said one.

Stephanie 43:56

Just the one.

Dani 43:57

Ward asked Deputy Prosecutor Dennis Voorhees whether he believed Rosencrans would run. Quote, "I can't honestly say yes" He replied-

Stephanie 44:11

People run,

Dani 44:12

people- Voorhees

Stephanie 44:13

people run for so much less.

Dani 44:16

Yeah.

Stephanie 44:17

You're telling me a potential death sentence, that's the worst that it could get, you're telling me you don't know if there's a potential... Anyone in their right mind, whether guilty or innocent, if I was innocent of a crime and I was convicted of that, and this time in Idaho when they're passing that shit out like candy and got it wrong many times probably, bitch, I'm in Jamaica. I'm in Cancun. I'm

Dani 44:43

in South Africa.

Stephanie 44:44

I'm going to Antarctica. I, and I hate, I hate the cold. I'm not getting... If I'm, if I'm truly innocent, fuck no. Even if I'm guilty-

Dani 44:56

Maybe

Stephanie 44:57

the, the urge, it, it's an, it's a na- For

Dani 45:01

self-preserver, preservation

Stephanie 45:02

preservation, yes.

Dani 45:04

Big word for me. Thank

Stephanie 45:05

you. No, but she, Dani knows w-

Dani 45:07

I know what it means

Stephanie 45:08

we are right there. Self-preservation, yes.

Dani 45:14

Voorhees, nevertheless, that he said, "I don't think he'll run," he opposed the request, arguing that Idaho law prohibited bond in cases punishable by death.

Stephanie 45:28

Well, thank goodness.

Dani 45:29

Stroker countered that the Idaho Supreme Court rules superseded that section of the statute. Voorhees suggested the case be tried sooner rather than releasing Rosencrans from custody until the court, the state could be ready within three weeks. He's like, "Do not let this guy out. We're ready."

Stephanie 45:48

We're ready to roll.

Dani 45:49

Three weeks, let's go More disagreed and set the bond at $30,000 A short time later, Rosencrans' family posted the bond and

Stephanie 46:02

he- 'Cause it's 3,000.

Dani 46:04

Yeah, 10%.

Stephanie 46:05

And I know that's a lot in the '80s, but not a lot, like, not unimaginable if you pool together resources or have someone that-

Dani 46:13

That's probably, like, 30,000 now. I'm not googling it. I'm not doing it.

Stephanie 46:18

I feel like maybe half that. So 3,000, maybe 15. Maybe

Dani 46:22

15? I don't know.

Stephanie 46:23

Sure. Someone, someone will give us the answer. It

Dani 46:27

wasn't enough for Capital.

Stephanie 46:29

No, 'cause it's 10%.

Dani 46:33

Well, and their whole property, but they're banking on him. But anyway, a short time later, Rosencrans' family posted the bond and he was released from jail.

Stephanie 46:44

Amazing.

Dani 46:45

The, the prosecutor's office immediately sought to have the bond revoked. Kudos. The matter came before Judge Daniel Hurlbut. Hurlbut. I'm sorry. Uh. Gotta giggle at weird names. Who denied the request and allowed Rosencrans to remain free pending trial.

Stephanie 47:05

Of course, because why wouldn't you?

Dani 47:08

You know what I think a lot of this had to do? He is missing literally a fucking arm. You wanna see?

Stephanie 47:13

They're like, "Oh, gosh, he lost an arm trying to commit a murder. Poor guy."

Dani 47:20

No arm

Stephanie 47:23

I, I'm searching, and may- maybe my mind will be changed when I hear the full story, but I'm- It won't be I'm searching for... Where the... What's, what's that one clip where it's like, "I'm searching for it. I'm trying to find it." It takes you that long? It does. I'm trying to find, I'm trying to find the empathy, and I really am, and maybe I'll get there. Um, stay tuned.

Dani 47:49

As the trial date approached, Stoker filed a motion seeking a change of venue. Clap, clap, clap. He argued, and I'm not opposed to this, and we have not, and I'm gonna speak. We have not been opposed to this because if it prevents-

Stephanie 48:06

An appeal

Dani 48:06

an appeal. Do it. Uh, Stoker argued that publicity surrounding the case has saturated the Magic Valley and made it impossible for Rosencrans to receive a fair trial. Copies of articles from the Times News- They

Stephanie 48:22

got shouted out

Dani 48:24

And the Buhl Herald-

Stephanie 48:26

Go Buhl

Dani 48:27

accompanied the motion. Stoker alternatively asked that the jurors be summoned from the outside area and questioned individually. He also filed a motion seeking to suppress statements Rosencrans had made to law enforcement officers. Mm. I don't... Mm. The-

Stephanie 48:48

Suspicious

Dani 48:49

the venue motion, came before Hurlbut. Sorry, I'm such a child. Say it again. I'm

Stephanie 48:55

such a child. Hurlbut.

Dani 48:56

Hurlbut Stoker argued that the newspaper, television, and radio coverage had exposed prospective jurors to information about the case and created preconceived-

Stephanie 49:10

Notions

Dani 49:10

yeah. He also requested that jurors be req- sequestered during the trial. Faka's got me, bro. And Voorhees opposed the, those requests. "People may read about the case in the newspaper, but typically they forget about it," he said. It's

Stephanie 49:32

true.

Dani 49:33

Hurlbut denied the request for the change of venue, finding that publicity surrounding the case had not been so extensive that an impartial jury could not be selected.

Stephanie 49:44

Well, yeah.

Dani 49:44

It's like, yeah,

? 49:46

but-

Stephanie 49:47

Anyway.

Dani 49:48

During the same hearing, Stoker moved to dismiss the charges. He argued that evidence presented at the preliminary hearing established that only two people had died during an altercation, and that did not prove premeditation.

Stephanie 50:07

I'm sorry. I f- I feel like- cocaine was very popular. Was he maybe-

Dani 50:15

I didn't get

Stephanie 50:16

any- indulging- I

Dani 50:17

think he was-

Stephanie 50:17

Maybe he was indulging when he committed

Dani 50:19

this I think it was a drink.

Stephanie 50:19

Little, little drink. Maybe a little... Maybe he liked to have a little toke.

Dani 50:25

Maybe. Stoker told the court,

Stephanie 50:29

That's all we have."

Dani 50:32

What? He's trying.

Stephanie 50:34

He's- A- as- defend- As they should De- Because the more the defense tries and the more

Dani 50:40

things they do- Then it's just clean then they can't appeal. It's clean, clean, clean.

Stephanie 50:44

Mm.

Dani 50:45

Voorhees argued that the evidence was sufficient and that the questions concerning intent could be decided by the intern-

? 50:52

Thank

Dani 50:53

you uh, the, the jury. And that, that is true. Hurlbut took the motion under advisement. In April, he denied the request. So he's like, "We're not changing shit. We're here. Let's go." Stoker then sought... And I also think that the judge considers the financial burden- Yeah of bringing people in or moving it out. Stoecker then sought to delay the trial while pursuing an appeal challenging whether sufficient evidence had presented at the preliminary hearing to support two counts of first-degree murder.

Stephanie 51:29

It's like, what murder? What murder? I love that song. What murder? He was a great guy. What murder?

Dani 51:39

Horwath denied the request, and the Idaho Supreme Court later refused to halt the proceedings. Like, they're taking this up. It's like, dude, there's two people dead. One guy is shot with his arm gone. Mm-hmm. Oh, and it was his ex-girlfriend with another guy.

Stephanie 51:56

Color.

Dani 51:57

With those motions exhausted, jury selection finally began. Four women and eight men, along with an alternative juror, were chosen to hear the case.

Stephanie 52:09

Only one, but okay. It's-

Dani 52:11

I, I think two is better we're on

Stephanie 52:13

TV.

Dani 52:13

Yeah.

Stephanie 52:13

Yeah.

Dani 52:14

The jurors were sworn and instructed not to discuss the trial, discuss the trial, or expose themselves to news coverage Opening statements began the following morning. Voorhees told jurors the evidence would show Rosencrans deliberately killed Kathy and Michael on June 18th, 1983. I am so pissed off I could not find any obits. I have to say that again.

Stephanie 52:39

If you guys find some obits, send them.

Dani 52:43

he outlined testimony that the state expected to present concerning Rosencrans' relationship with Kathy, the prior threats, the events leading up to the shootings, and statements made immediately afterwards to, of course-

Stephanie 52:59

Exactly

Dani 53:00

yeah. Like, uh, did you not just fucking tell the neighbor?

Stephanie 53:05

Ex- mm.

Dani 53:07

Stoker responded that the evidence would not establish premeditated murder, and argued that alcohol played a significant role in Rosencrans' behavior. probably the alcohol, yeah.

Stephanie 53:19

Sure.

Dani 53:20

Premeditated? Mm.

Stephanie 53:22

And listen, I understand that alcohol can make people do things they wouldn't normally do. I have, I have also. But most people, they're doing something that's silly, goofy at the least, that they wouldn't normally do, or it's mildly uncomfortable for their friends. It's a little bit, little bit weird. Or it's, "Girl, we had to, we had to put you in the Uber by, and accompany you home," yes.

Dani 53:56

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 53:57

For most people it's not, "Gosh darn it, I had a few too many shots of the whiskey and I went and killed people."

Dani 54:05

Oh, no, listen.

Stephanie 54:06

Yeah.

Dani 54:06

He told jurors that the, the defense would present evidence that Rosencrans suffered blackouts and memory lapses after drinking, and that the state could not prove the deliberate intent required for first-degree murder.

Stephanie 54:19

So as long as you're plastered as fuck when you kill someone- You're all

Dani 54:22

right

Stephanie 54:23

you're good. Ah. Get, get blackout drunk and murder. This is not actual legal advice. D- Do not listen.

Dani 54:31

But they're... That's being thrown out.

Stephanie 54:33

That's, that's the defense, which-

Dani 54:35

Now listen

Stephanie 54:36

I'm being sarcastic.

Dani 54:37

Listen.

Stephanie 54:38

Yeah.

Dani 54:38

Listen that defense is not defensing.

Stephanie 54:42

That defense is trying badly.

Dani 54:46

Before testimony began, Stoker challenged the manner in which perspective jurors had been questioned during selection. Hurlbutt agreed that an-

Stephanie 54:57

I can't stop laughing. I can't. I tried, and you did it so good, and if I would, if I would've just shut my fucking trap, but alas, here we are.

Dani 55:07

Hurlbutt agreed that an irregularity had occurred and offered to declare a mistrial. After consulting with Rosencrans, however, s- Stoecker declined t- the offer and elected to proceed with a jury that had already been selected. And, uh, unfortunately, I don't know what that hissy fizz w- hissy fit was about. I don't know. I don't. But,

Stephanie 55:32

but a hih- a hissy fit did happen.

Dani 55:36

Huh. And then Rosencrans is like, "Okay, let's, never mind. Let's just go." the state began this case with testimony from Luann Butler. Butler described... There's lots of buts in this. I'm just... Okay, I'll stop. I'm a child. It's great. Butler described an incident that occurred about a week before the shootings when Rosencrans came to Kathy's residence and pounded on the door. "Let me in, or I'll blow my way in," Butler testified he yelled. And so, I mean, this was... I explained this first in the case- Yes, I remember you're gonna hear a little re- you're gonna hear a little repeating here about some earlier, but we digress. But

Stephanie 56:16

other, other people heard it too, is what it sounds like.

Dani 56:19

The prosecution next called Elroy King.

Stephanie 56:23

Let's hear it, Elroy.

Dani 56:25

Elroy describes spending June 18th with Rosencrans in that Castle- in Castle Ford, and told jurors that Rosencrans eventually handed him the car keys, right? And said, "You put those somewhere." Right?

Stephanie 56:40

Mm-hmm.

Dani 56:40

Later, Rosencrans found the keys and left the bar shortly after 9:00. He said- And Elroy said, "I lost track of him." "I'm going home." Well, yeah, he had got his keys. That was your job, bro. You, and-

Stephanie 56:55

No, and a drunk person with a idea, I think we all know.

Dani 56:59

And two drunk people, 'cause we know. You

Stephanie 57:00

cannot convince them otherwise, so

Dani 57:03

it- Elroy was passed out when he was beating her He was,

Stephanie 57:10

he's like, "I had a snooze. What the fuck are y'all talking about?"

Dani 57:14

Ain't not my job, bro.

Stephanie 57:17

No, you cannot, you cannot reason with a drunky, drunky person.

Dani 57:22

No.

Stephanie 57:23

We all know that.

Dani 57:23

Times two. Elroy also described the trip through Garbage-

Stephanie 57:30

Jarbidge

Dani 57:31

Garbage, Nevada- Jarbidge when Rosencrantz smashed the window-

Stephanie 57:36

Yeah,

Dani 57:37

fucking weird of his car with a baseball bat after hearing that Kathy had possibly ridden home

Stephanie 57:43

with- With someone. Mm. So you beat up your, you, you bust your own windshield.

Dani 57:49

Neighbor Messler then took the stand and described hearing the three gunshots, and about 15 minutes later he heard somebody calling for help.

Stephanie 58:00

Yeah.

Dani 58:01

and that he, where he had found Rosencrantz lying in an o- doorway And then Metzler asked him if he needed help. I just, this is so weird. Why would you... Like, he's bleeding, but whatever.

Stephanie 58:15

Like villain monologue.

Dani 58:16

Yeah. And then i- in court, he repeated that he said, "Help me. I've killed them all." and then he testified, he was having difficulty breathing, and that he told Metzler, "Why did I do it? I loved her." Yeah. Jurors also heard testimony from officers and investigators who responded to the residence that night. Chief Deputy Harold Jensen described the processing of the scene, the collection of evidence, and the position of items found inside the home. Officers testified that Kathy and Michael were found dead from shotgun wounds while a young child was still inside the residence, but unharmed

Stephanie 59:05

I mean, especially with the cases we've heard

Dani 59:09

Grateful

Stephanie 59:10

that's not always the case. No. So I'm not trying to be like, "But this one's great," but it could've been worse, and it has been worse.

Dani 59:20

The state introduced evidence concerning the shotgun recovered at the scene and efforts to identify who it belonged to. Jurors heard that investigators attempted to trace the weapon, but were unsuccessful because of its age. Fingerprints testimony followed. Buell Police Lieutenant Ron Romero and other officers described prints recovered from the shotgun. Only one distinguac- distinguishable fingerprint was found on the weapon's barrel, and it did not match Rosengrant's.

Stephanie 59:57

Mm.

Dani 59:59

83, I'm not banking-

Stephanie 1:00:01

No

Dani 1:00:01

on any forensic evidence.

Stephanie 1:00:04

The technology- No was not technology-ing yet

Dani 1:00:08

If we had DNA...

Stephanie 1:00:10

It wasn't giving science.

Dani 1:00:12

And look, ugh, I'll, I'll say this later 'cause I

Stephanie 1:00:15

don't wanna say it. Okay, save it.

Dani 1:00:18

Medical witnesses then testified about the injuries suffered by Kathy, Michael, and Rosencrans. Emergency personnel described arriving at the residence and finding Rosencrans seriously wounded. He lost his fucking arm-

Stephanie 1:00:32

Yeah

Dani 1:00:33

near the doorway. Physicians and pathologists explained that the Shotgun wounds that killed Kathy and Michael, and detailed the injuries that eventually resulted in the amputation of Rosencrans' arms. Arm. One arm.

Stephanie 1:00:49

Just the one.

Dani 1:00:50

Left arm.

Stephanie 1:00:51

Just, I mean-

Dani 1:00:52

Cause he's right-handed still

Stephanie 1:00:52

bad

Dani 1:00:53

he was shooting himself.

Stephanie 1:00:54

Yeah.

Dani 1:00:55

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:00:56

Still bad, but I mean it's a l- if we're being real, it's the left arm. It's only one.

Dani 1:01:02

Oh, and wait, he's still alive.

Stephanie 1:01:05

Precisely, folks.

Dani 1:01:07

Michael was just trying to date this gal.

Stephanie 1:01:10

He had no fucking idea. Kathy

Dani 1:01:11

was just trying to fucking get away from him and start-

Stephanie 1:01:15

Start her new life

Dani 1:01:18

As the state's case continued, Kathy's sister, Cindy, took the stand and described that Memorial Day weekend assault. She described how he came over and fucking- Yeah she's like, "Don't go." She wanted. And she went, and then she's trying to get fucking Elroy's attention.

Stephanie 1:01:37

And he's snoozing.

Dani 1:01:39

Yeah, and that, you know, and also that her sister was bleeding from the nose.

Stephanie 1:01:45

Hello?

Dani 1:01:46

And that she said, quote, "I was fighting him on the back trying to get him off of her."

Stephanie 1:01:54

No, it's a bad... If it's getting to that and you cannot stop when someone else- With

Dani 1:02:00

words

Stephanie 1:02:01

or even she's hitting him-

Dani 1:02:03

Yeah

Stephanie 1:02:04

to snap him out of it, I'm sorry, that is so indicative of just the most low-level self-control emotionally that it makes me be like, how can you function and be trusted in anything? You're willing to do this in front of people. They're trying to fight you off, trying, probably tried to reason with you several times, as we all do. I can totally... We've all seen this play out, and you cannot, and you just have to

Dani 1:02:41

Well, during all of this testimony- Mm-mm defense be defensing.

Stephanie 1:02:47

Of course. Doesn't seem like they are defensing well, but that's their own business.

Dani 1:02:51

Sucker objected repeatedly at her testimony, and at one point moved for a mistrial after the testimony concerning Rosencrantz's suspicion that Cassie was involved with another man. So he's like This, he's, he's, he's trying to dodge the premeditation-

Stephanie 1:03:12

Yeah

Dani 1:03:12

that comes with this. Hurlbut denied the motion and allowed the trial to continue, 'cause she's just fucking telling the story. Cindy also described Cathy's behavior after the assault, telling jurors that Cathy became nervous, frightened, and didn't want anything to do with Rosenkrantz.

Stephanie 1:03:33

Yeah, very clear

Dani 1:03:37

When Cindy's testimony concluded the state rested its case. The defense began presenting evidence concerning Rosencrantz's drinking habits, his history of alcohol-related blackouts, and his inability to remember what happened on the night Kathy and Michael were

Stephanie 1:04:03

killed. Look, he membered. He membered. Convenient excuse. He membered. He membered. 'Cause listen, I think a lot of us have been blackout drunk And the, listen, there is times where you might not remember anything, but that creeping little flashback, there's always a few little bink- A little bleeps. And they suck. Listen, they suck. I've never, I've never murdered anyone about it-

Dani 1:04:29

I-

Stephanie 1:04:30

but I've made a little bit of an ass out of myself, and that comes back.

Dani 1:04:34

When I was in my early 20s, my mom said to me, "Don't you hate it when you can't remember what you did last night?" And I said, "No, I hate it when I can remember."

Stephanie 1:04:51

Like, yeah,

Dani 1:04:52

I- The fucking cringe is real.

Stephanie 1:04:54

And, and, but listen, back in that, in, in our time- There was- In our times, if you didn't remember and everyone else didn't remember- Good it was gone.

Dani 1:05:03

There was no video.

Stephanie 1:05:04

Now time-

Dani 1:05:05

There was no Insta. There was no fucking

Stephanie 1:05:06

TikTok. No one had a camera in their pocket, and if they did, it was so obvious, and everyone was like, "Why are you recording, bro?" I have a theme song

Dani 1:05:12

for this. Please tell me why my car is

Stephanie 1:05:18

in the front yard. And I'm-

Dani 1:05:22

Sleeping with the clown

Stephanie 1:05:23

and nobody knew, and everyone's like, "I guess we fucked up." Most people were on the same level. We're good. You might have that one sober friend that was like, "I, well, things-

Dani 1:05:32

Or semi sober really

Stephanie 1:05:34

things happened," but, I mean, obviously- Yeah, right the cops didn't call, get called. No one's in jail. So it couldn't have been that bad. And now it's like your every fucking move.

Dani 1:05:46

These kids are getting ripped off.

Stephanie 1:05:48

They really are, and I feel bad because if, if this technology was available when I was a child preteen- I'd be

Dani 1:05:55

in fucking

Stephanie 1:05:56

jail early 20s-

Dani 1:05:57

I'd be in jail

Stephanie 1:05:58

I, I would be in jail. I would be viral for being an absolute-

Dani 1:06:05

Douche

Stephanie 1:06:05

I was being an, a piece of shit.

Dani 1:06:10

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 1:06:10

And I was fucking up my life on the, on, in the fast lane.

Dani 1:06:14

And you know what? Fucking 16 to 22, be a D-bag. Do it.

Stephanie 1:06:21

That i- that is the time to do it, and that, that is, that, those were my prime D-bag years.

Dani 1:06:26

Prime D-bag. this guy let... Rosencrans was fucking 30.

Stephanie 1:06:32

No, no excuses. Get your, get your fucking life

Dani 1:06:34

together, bro. Quit

Stephanie 1:06:35

drinking. Then, then or now. Then or now. And

Dani 1:06:38

also Elroy, bro.

Stephanie 1:06:42

And I'm just so flabbergasted of a name. It's like Cletus.

Dani 1:06:45

Check your fucking friend. This is not a good friend. Elroy should've been like- "You're being a D-bag. No guns. Hey, you want a drink? Stay at home. Give me your key. We're not drinking at the bar. You're not stalking your fucking ex-girlfriend." "Oopsie, found your keys." "Stop, stop, stop." That's, at 30, that's what friends do. As, at 18, they don't do that. At 30, your friend should be doing that. And 30 back in '83 was like 40 now.

Stephanie 1:07:16

Yeah. Oh, you were geriatric. So,

Dani 1:07:19

yeah. Get your fucking life together. Yeah. All right As the defense concluded its case, the prosecution called two rebuttal witnesses. Don't see this often- Wow in the Idaho. Kelly Wilson, the Beal police officer who had previously encountered Rosencrans while he was intoxicated and sitting beside his rifle in the car, testified that Rosencrans was, quote, "Drunk, but very coherent." I feel like that's an oxymoron. During that encounter, Wilson said Rosencrans was upset about his relationship with Kathy and told him several times that he intended to shoot himself. Wilson also described finding Rosencrans in possession of the rifle and said that Rosencrans asked him to take it because he was afraid of what he might do.

Stephanie 1:08:13

Okay. Sure.

Dani 1:08:15

Yeah. the prosecution also called Nick Welch, who testified that he saw Rosencrans driving his own vehicle in Castleford between 8:00 and 8:30 PM on June 18th. The testimony addressed earlier evidence concerning Rosencrans giving his car re- car keys to Elroy saying, you know, "You put these somewhere." And-

Stephanie 1:08:39

And he was like, "Sure. In my- Sure they're gonna be in my pocket, but don't ever touch my pocket, you naughty boy. Don't ever try to take them out of my pocket. That's a very, it's a cargo pocket so you could probably pickpocket it without me even knowing, and don't you do that."

Dani 1:08:55

Don't you do that.

Stephanie 1:08:56

And then-

Dani 1:08:56

Um, I'm just gonna leave... L- listen, I feel like- I

Stephanie 1:08:59

set them on the table behind my wallet

Dani 1:09:02

I feel like in 83, they're at the bar. Yeah. He's like, "I'll just go put them in my truck," and they're not locking their truck. No. You see it?

Stephanie 1:09:09

I put them, I put them right on the driver's seat. Well, that's the same. But don't you dare touch them. Put

Dani 1:09:14

them in my jockey.

Stephanie 1:09:15

Don't you ever. Okay. I just put them in my jockey. And he's like, "I'm not, bro." And then it- I'm not and then the drinks go. Go. And he's like-

Dani 1:09:21

Oh, my keys are in a jockey"

Stephanie 1:09:22

the, the

Dani 1:09:23

keys. "I gotta

Stephanie 1:09:24

drive." I'm getting those keys. We, just so you guys know, um, I hope you're having a cocktail at home. We're drunk as thick. Drunk... We are drunk as fact. Fact. Drunk as fact.

Dani 1:09:38

Well, we just, we did, and I just have to say this, A, it's Friday.

Stephanie 1:09:45

C.

Dani 1:09:45

B, a teenager hit my husband's truck while he was turning into the driveway.

Stephanie 1:09:51

Yes.

Dani 1:09:51

Yeah. Yeah. Which totally distracted us for, like, a whole hour. Did we stop drinking? No.

Stephanie 1:09:57

Absolutely not. We're home. We're safe. We're not driving. We, we have this luxury. We're like, "Wow, this sucks," as we're sipping our cocktails.

Dani 1:10:06

Can we take pictures of your poor little car? We- And, uh, anyway. We're getting there.

Stephanie 1:10:13

We're going

Dani 1:10:16

With the evidence completed, both sides delivered their closing arguments. Vorhees told jurors that the evidence established beyond a reasonable doubt that Rosencrans shot Kathy and Michael. Concur. He returned repeatedly to the testimony concerning Rosencrans' relationship with Kathy, that Memorial Day assault, the threats, and the confrontation at Kathy's door, and statements neighbor Metzler heard outside the residence on that night. Vorhees argued that Rosencrans acted with deliberate malice, and urged jurors to convict him of first-degree murder. Yes, concur.

Stephanie 1:11:00

Concur.

Dani 1:11:02

I don't get If you're fucking fucked up and on drugs or drinking, and you commit a murder, sorry your brain wasn't working right. You know that- Yeah when you go to, "Oh, is this your first time drinking? Is this your first time doing drugs? Do you realize that your brain doesn't work the same way?" Mm-hmm.

Stephanie 1:11:20

And I'm of the opinion that, sure, there's exceptions, but probably 95% of the time if you are inebriated in some way, there's probably something else that has been there.

Dani 1:11:37

So Stoker responded by attacking the physical evidence and questioning whether the state had proven its theory of the case. He pointed to testimony showing that Rosencrans' fingerprints were not found on the shotgun, and argued that evidence collected from the weapon failed to conclusively establish that Rosencrans had fired it. Listen, listen, Stoker, uh, you didn't have an alternative fucking guy, gal that did it. Uh, there's no alternative con-

Stephanie 1:12:14

Where's the doubt? Your, that's your job

Dani 1:12:17

also it's 1983. I promise you today DNA, done, done. Boom. Oh,

Stephanie 1:12:23

you're fucking done.

Dani 1:12:25

Stoker also returned to testimony about Rosencrans drinking, arguing that alcohol affected his behavior. that's a him problem.

Stephanie 1:12:33

Yeah, fuck

Dani 1:12:34

off. And the judgment and the evidence did not support a finding of premeditated murder. That is your bro's problem, okay? Hurlbut instructed the jury on the law governing first degree murder, second degree murder, and voluntary manslaughter. Why are these all the options?

Stephanie 1:12:56

They're-

Dani 1:12:57

Why? Jurors were told that first degree murder required killing committed willfully, deliberately, with premeditation, and with malice aforethought. They were also instructed on voluntary manslaughter, which involved a killing committed upon the heat of passion or a sudden quarrel. The jury received the case and began their deliberations. They be deliberating. Jurors deliberated for nearly nine hours during the first day without reaching a verdict, and then shortly before 10:00 PM- I just can't. I'm so sorry Hurlbut holded proceedings. I would change my name. I... Just Hurl-

Stephanie 1:13:45

It's to Hurl plus But.

Dani 1:13:47

It's H-U- We have to be- R-L-B-U-T-T. It's

Stephanie 1:13:52

like Butt. It's just,

Dani 1:13:53

it's- It's not Boo- And it's Hurl Butt. Yeah. Hurlbut- Oh halted proceedings for the night and ordered the jurors sequestered. Like hotel?

Stephanie 1:14:02

Motel Holiday Inn.

Dani 1:14:03

Does, does it have HBO, though?

Stephanie 1:14:05

Not at this age, but-

Dani 1:14:10

No, they're only getting locals at this point

Stephanie 1:14:11

They're getting locals, and then in, like, the '90s, they would get a movie room

Dani 1:14:18

VHS

Stephanie 1:14:19

VHS. Everyone, everyone can join if you wish. You don't have to.

Dani 1:14:23

But I do feel like they got to go out to eat.

Stephanie 1:14:26

They did, in a... usually a pr- the private room, or they would have it curtained off.

Dani 1:14:32

Yeah. Excellent. Really excellent.

Stephanie 1:14:36

You're, you're like a, you're like a celebrity.

Dani 1:14:39

The jury returned the following morning and resumed deliberations. After more than 10 hours of deliberation, which they already did nine hours. Yeah.

Stephanie 1:14:49

So they came

Dani 1:14:49

back in

Stephanie 1:14:49

the morning. They're doing it.

Dani 1:14:50

They slept on it. They're like- They're working "We're fucking ready. Let's pull straws." Yeah. "Let's go." the jury returned to the courtroom. Rosencrans was found not guilty of first-degree murder and not guilty of second-degree murder. Instead, jurors found him guilty on two counts of voluntary manslaughter in the deaths of Kathy and Michael Go ahead, shake your mic, sis. I think

Stephanie 1:15:23

I think we're all processing during these trying times

Dani 1:15:30

Literally found with a gun in his car with a cop before. Literally a piece of

Stephanie 1:15:36

shit- You have to stop. I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw the laptop out the window that nobody knows is a window.

Dani 1:15:41

Isn't it so bad?

Stephanie 1:15:44

It's so f- I mean, anyone out there with three and a half brain cells or more, you know that. It sucks. I, I see- How

Dani 1:15:56

do you get voluntary manslaughter- There's, there, there- when you fucking take a gun and shoot people at their house?

Stephanie 1:16:02

So listen, there are circumstantial cases that are convicted with 1/10th of this evidence.

Dani 1:16:12

Literally, shotgun, you shot your fucking... And you know what? I didn't get-

Stephanie 1:16:18

You're there at the scene of the crime because you shot yourself, you dipshit. It

Dani 1:16:22

wasn't like, oh, I did not get any of this for my research. It wasn't like the defense said, "Well, he was just coming over to see her, and then this guy came out of nowhere and just shot everybody."

Stephanie 1:16:36

He saw the intruder. Where is this mysterious man?

? 1:16:43

Mm-mm.

Stephanie 1:16:44

Fuck that.

Dani 1:16:46

Following the verdict, Hurlbut ordered a pre-sentence investigation and scheduled the sentencing hearing. The convictions carried a maximum sentence... Okay, are you ready?

Stephanie 1:16:59

Yes.

Dani 1:16:59

Of 10 years on each-

Stephanie 1:17:02

I wasn't

Dani 1:17:03

count of voluntary manslaughter, leaving the court to determine whether the sentence would run concurrently or consecutive. 10 fucking years for literally driving to somebody's house and blowing them, and, I

Stephanie 1:17:17

mean- And a stranger that did nothing to you.

Dani 1:17:21

Yeah, Michael, what... He was just-

Stephanie 1:17:24

And I'm not saying that it's better-

Dani 1:17:26

He was just trying to see a cute girl

Stephanie 1:17:28

Yes, I'm not saying- That is- I'm not saying it's better. Like, of course, the, the main victim in this case, like- But this is just a s- a friend It's like, "Hey, you wanna hang out?" Just hanging out with your- That's what you do when you date that's what you do when you're friends even, and this is fucked.

Dani 1:17:48

Well, I hope they were dating, and I hope that they were having a really good time.

Stephanie 1:17:51

I hope they fucking were.

Dani 1:17:53

Right? Having a fun I kinda feel like they were. She didn't go to the fucking thing. She's like, "I'm just gonna stay here."

Stephanie 1:18:01

She was just allowing herself a little treat.

Dani 1:18:05

Having some fun.

Stephanie 1:18:06

I always say treat yourself. She was just like, "You know what? I ju- I should." This is what I imagine. I don't know. She's like, "Why not?" A little dip my toe in some fun. Just dipping the toe. She wasn't- Let's watch a movie doing a cannonball.

Dani 1:18:25

No. Let's watch a movie. Maybe have a beer or two. Hang out. Baby. Good. Just playing. We're gonna hang out. Now this is fucked this is my life. And then you have some psycho motherfucker who's already been there-

Stephanie 1:18:40

Hey, I'm back again, you fucking- cunt

Dani 1:18:47

When the sentencing hearing was held, Stoker urged the court to impose a single 10-year indeterminate sentence. What the fuck? He argued that Rosencrans no longer poses a danger to society. How?

Stephanie 1:19:05

I'm sorry, the people that think like this and do this shit, they, they

Dani 1:19:09

very rarely-

Stephanie 1:19:10

He's defending- They very rarely heal

Dani 1:19:12

he's defending. and said the court should view the punishment as retribution rather than deterrence

Stephanie 1:19:23

Whatever you say, bub

Dani 1:19:24

Uh, big words. Stoker told Hurlbut that Rosencrantz was unlikely to commit another crime and argued that when sober, he's, quote, "A fairly mellow guy and an easy person to like." He's a murderer. to support that argument, Stoker called Rosencrantz's stepfather, Lyle, to testify. Lyle said Rosencrantz had been living with the family while free on bond and that he had not been drinking alcohol. Rosencrantz also took the stand and testified that he had only consumed one glass of wine while released pending trial. Uh, you'd be back in jail today now, sir. Stoker compared the case to other voluntary manslaughter sentences imposed in Idaho and argued that a 10-year sentence would be consistent with those cases. True. In the past.

Stephanie 1:20:22

And

Dani 1:20:22

doesn't make it right.

Stephanie 1:20:24

No, and we- we've had this argument over, over even second-degree murder- Yeah and how-

Dani 1:20:30

Five years Some- And then you get out and murder again

Stephanie 1:20:34

Or there's, there's- You've got some of those cases some states have other stipulations where it's, like, one year. Like, you... Of, of they get... It's n- They're not sentenced to that, but they

Dani 1:20:45

get- And this isn't a car accident. Like, he fucking... 'Cause that's a whole different thing.

Stephanie 1:20:48

'Cause I can see- He

Dani 1:20:49

literally went to their house- Yeah and shot them, and then shot himself. He's a fucking idiot. He's missing an arm.

Stephanie 1:20:55

It's not m- manslaughter in accident or negligence. You don't negligently walk your fucking shotgun in and shoot two people and yourself. Whoopsie. That, that's planned. That takes determination. That takes thought over multiple minutes. Hello.

Dani 1:21:20

Starker told Hurlbut, "I wouldn't want to change places with you. There are people who have suffered in this case who will never be satisfied with what the court does." So he's asking for the best. He's saying, "Nobody's gonna be happy, but you should give me the best result out of this."

? 1:21:41

Mm.

Dani 1:21:42

Vorhees asked for the maximum penalty available under the law. He requested the two 10-year sentences and asked that they run consecutively rather than at the same time. He rejected the defense argument that alcohol excused or substantially reduced Rosencrans' responsibility. And it does. You get a You're, you're drunk and you hit somebody, fuck you. Yeah. You're bad. It's your bad for being drunk. "We can all allow ourselves to let our emotions run rampant if we don't have to face any consequences for our action," Vorhees said. "But individual responsibility is the cornerstone of our system. He promised to kill her if he found her with another man. That is what he promised to do, and that is what he did," Vorhees said.

Stephanie 1:22:38

He went through with his word, 100%.

Dani 1:22:42

Prosecuting.

Stephanie 1:22:43

And that's- Prosecuting again why I'm like, you couldn't get first, couldn't get second. But

Dani 1:22:54

I don't know how the jury ended up on voluntary. I'm not gonna bash the jury, but I

Stephanie 1:22:57

don't like it. It was a different time. Fuck.

Dani 1:23:00

At the conclusion of the hearing, Hurlbut declined to sentence Rosencrans immediately. He's gonna be a thinker.

Stephanie 1:23:09

And that's cool, fine.

Dani 1:23:12

And I like that.

Stephanie 1:23:13

And do it to avoid, again, a what? Appeal.

Dani 1:23:17

Appeal.

Stephanie 1:23:18

Appeal. Precisely.

Dani 1:23:21

Instead, he announced that he wanted additional time to study the case and prepare a written sentencing order. I love this. the judge postponed sentencing and said he would issue a written memorandum explaining the decision. Jesus, that was a lot of big words for me

Stephanie 1:23:38

this morning. You do so good

Dani 1:23:42

When the hearing reconvened, Hurlbut entered a 21-page sentencing memorandum and imposed the maximum sentence allowed by law.

Stephanie 1:23:52

Slay. Slay, king.

Dani 1:23:55

Rosencrantz was sentenced to two consecutive 10-year prison terms for a total of 20 years. Uh, mm, at least he got

Stephanie 1:24:03

the max. It's something, yes.

Dani 1:24:05

in the memorandum, Hurlbut wrote that Rosencrantz appears to be a ticking bomb set to go off at any time without warning. Concur.

Stephanie 1:24:16

I'm sorry.

Dani 1:24:18

Literally.

Stephanie 1:24:18

Most women hearing this and hearing the defense, they could tell you that and be 100% sure of it. Because once you see this type of shit, I'm so sorry- Yeah,

Dani 1:24:31

any time

Stephanie 1:24:32

barring any insane amount of rehabilitation and counseling, and even if that, sometimes it just makes these men better at excusing their behavior. They just learn how to therapy speak you.

Dani 1:24:47

Oh, wait, listen what the judge says.

Stephanie 1:24:50

I want to hear.

Dani 1:24:51

Mr. Rosencrantz's generally non-violent and withdrawn character belies his danger to society

Stephanie 1:25:02

That's This is what I wanna see.

Dani 1:25:08

Hurlbut rejected the argument that alcoholism excused the killings. "This court will acknowledge that drinking is a medical problem, but this court cannot and will not excuse criminal conduct on that basis. Although the disease of alcoholism may be, may explain criminal conduct, it is in no measure serves as an excuse- Thank you for such conduct."

Stephanie 1:25:36

Thank y'all.

Dani 1:25:37

The court must also seek to deter others who so believe and would similarly act."

Stephanie 1:25:46

They want to set a precedent of, yeah, you can't just get shwasty wasty and be like-

Dani 1:25:52

You can't

Stephanie 1:25:52

be a shit show "Well, fuck, I killed everyone. Whoops. Can I have, can I have, can I have five years please?"

Dani 1:25:59

Hurlbut also rejected the defense's argument that imposing the maximum sentence somehow ignored the jury's verdict of man- voluntary manslaughter rather than murder. So it's like-

Stephanie 1:26:12

No

Dani 1:26:12

way yeah, they get, like, it doesn't

Stephanie 1:26:15

make it

Dani 1:26:15

better. He said,

Stephanie 1:26:16

Yeah, they did the sentence and I'm allowed to choose from this range, and I will do so,"- Yeah and he did.

Dani 1:26:24

If there was ever a case that was appropriate for the maximum sentence for the commission of a crime of voluntary manslaughter, this is the case. To conclude otherwise would be to disregard the intent of the legislature in setting the maximum allowable sentence.

Stephanie 1:26:43

And, and I, yes, clocked it, ate, no crumbs. Everything that the kids are saying.

Dani 1:26:50

Fucking badass. He's like, "Look- Like

Stephanie 1:26:53

viking

Dani 1:26:54

just because he got voluntary doesn't mean that I cannot fucking hand his ass to him."

Stephanie 1:27:00

He said, "Yes, you did do the manslaughter," which I don't think he agreed with, but he went with it. He said, "I'm trusting you. Sure, manslaughter." He

Dani 1:27:09

has to go with the jury.

Stephanie 1:27:09

This is what I have in my bucket that I can do, and I decide what I get to hand out. If I

Dani 1:27:15

would've been a bench trial- And I will

Stephanie 1:27:18

do it Yeah.

Dani 1:27:21

This is a life.

Stephanie 1:27:22

Yeah.

Dani 1:27:22

This is a fucking life

Stephanie 1:27:23

Fucking for sure, and it's, in my opinion, open and shut. I know it was a different time. That's okay.

Dani 1:27:32

You can't be fucking creepy weird ex-boyfriend and go shooting your ex-girlfriend at- And break- her new boyfriend and breaking- You fucking dick your own windshield. Again, this weird

Stephanie 1:27:44

like- Or attacking her mis- misplaced rage that some men have. And- Weird

Dani 1:27:50

fucking, she comes home with a bloody nose, runs into the house. What does he do? He follows her and still continues to fucking-

Stephanie 1:27:57

In front of people. You have a problem.

Dani 1:28:00

Yeah. He's not just this innocent little guy.

Stephanie 1:28:03

No.

Dani 1:28:04

Rosencranz sat quietly through the proceedings. After the sentence was imposed, he met briefly with his family members before deputies escorted him from the courtroom. Of course, there was appeals, and it was unsuccessful.

Stephanie 1:28:18

Duh.

Dani 1:28:19

the convictions for voluntary manslaughter deaths of Kathy and Michael and the 20-year sentence imposed by Hurlbutt was upheld. And are you ready for the most disappointing thing?

Stephanie 1:28:32

I don't know, but tell me.

Dani 1:28:34

I can't tell you where he is today. I can't tell you where he got out. There is fucking nothing on the IDOC. So-

Stephanie 1:28:43

If you know where our good old buddy Rosencranz is, was, or ended up or-

Dani 1:28:49

I do know he did not get the appeal, so I do feel like he's- Yeah

Stephanie 1:28:52

done the 20 years.

Dani 1:28:54

no newspapers, nothing. So- Mm normally I like to give you that little juice at the end.

Stephanie 1:29:02

Help us, please. We're poor.

Dani 1:29:03

I mean,

Stephanie 1:29:04

eh. We've... I know we're all going through it, guys, so do-

Dani 1:29:09

But if he was 30 in '83 Even 20 years, 50, and 2,000

Stephanie 1:29:18

Rosencrantz, would you like to be on our show if you're out there?

Dani 1:29:23

Anyway, I don't know exactly what happened. I was pissed about it 'cause I researched all of this. I was like, I don't even have the ending. But that's the ending, 20 years in jail. But I don't know. I think if it's fixed, he had to spend that 20 years, but

Stephanie 1:29:42

hell. One would hope. One would, one would hope. What do I know? And that's what I wanna imagine in my head, because what a, what a clusterfuck of a case.

Dani 1:29:51

Look, don't be a d-bag. If your girl doesn't want you anymore- Leave them alone if your guy doesn't want you anymore, just move on. There is more fish in the sea than-

Stephanie 1:30:04

And at thir- at 30, to be acting like this Don't

Dani 1:30:07

be a d-bag

Stephanie 1:30:08

you're being fucking weird. So thank you, Dani.

Dani 1:30:13

I don't even know how we

Stephanie 1:30:14

survive this. And I say this, I say this- We've been- I say this begrudgingly. I say, I do say thank you because yes, thank you. You were right. It did, it did piss me off. But you know what, folks? I don't know what day it is when you'll be listening to this, but tonight it's Friday, and if you need tonight to be r- your Friday, make it your Friday. Slay. Slay, queen.

Dani 1:30:39

Um-

Stephanie 1:30:41

Yeah, that's, that's all I've got, Dani

Dani 1:30:43

I am, we have recorded TikToks, so I'm gonna call Stef out to release some of our TikToks. I'm gonna call her. Oh, we do have lives, uh,

Stephanie 1:30:57

jobs. Unfor- unfortunately, we do require, as you all do, full-time jobs. Full-time

Dani 1:31:02

jobs.

Stephanie 1:31:02

And then some, in some cases.

Dani 1:31:04

Yeah, and then we have kids and grand babies.

Stephanie 1:31:08

And parents, and-

Dani 1:31:10

And parents.

Stephanie 1:31:12

We're trying, just, just as each and every one of you are. So yes, I know some people are upset of our every other week release.

Dani 1:31:21

We've gotta do it. We've gotta give ourselves some breaks.

Stephanie 1:31:23

Either, either we do that, or both of us would say, "Fuck it, we can't."

Dani 1:31:28

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:31:28

So-

Dani 1:31:29

But this is fun, and we enjoy it

Stephanie 1:31:31

find your balance. We're finding our balance. So our

Dani 1:31:32

balance is every other week during the summer 'cause we're busy having fun.

Stephanie 1:31:37

And we fucking love you guys all the way. So if you have questions, concerns, ideas, cases The lethal, the lethal library @gmail.com

Dani 1:31:51

Check us, email us. We're down. Give us cases.

Stephanie 1:31:54

Follow, subscribe.

Dani 1:31:56

Oh, can I just say one really quick thing?

Stephanie 1:31:58

Let's, let's hear it.

Dani 1:31:59

Uh, we... I don't know if we mentioned this before, but we went to the Ida History.

Stephanie 1:32:03

Yes.

Dani 1:32:05

Mm. It was fun. It was good.

Stephanie 1:32:06

Those of you... So Ida History on TikTok, Insta, and Facebook, totally cool dude. The- Went

Dani 1:32:15

down to the voodoo.

Stephanie 1:32:16

Yes, we went down to the voodoo, and what case did he, did he do? Tell them.

Dani 1:32:20

Chop Shop.

Stephanie 1:32:21

Chop Shop House, which we've covered.

Dani 1:32:23

Yeah.

Stephanie 1:32:23

I don't know that we called it that in the title just because it, we, we don't love that title, but that's what's notorious. Yeah. So no shade. but no, it was... I liked the presentation. We had a good time. We had some drinks. We got to see some pictures. We got to hear some tea. Thoroughly enjoyed. Yeah. So Mark- Good people shout out to you. Thank you, for- And

Dani 1:32:46

he's doing another one too.

Stephanie 1:32:47

Yeah. And he chatted with us after, and we thought that was so cool. Yeah,

Dani 1:32:51

he was so cool about it, so- Yeah that's awesome. So anyways, shout out Ida History.

Stephanie 1:32:56

Yeah, I think it's... June 11th. June 11th It is. Sorry.

Dani 1:33:05

That's nice.

Stephanie 1:33:06

We're trying, we're trying to be responsible, guys. Stop. But yeah. Anyways,

Dani 1:33:10

go check out Out of History for that. Um-

Stephanie 1:33:13

No, we had a great time, and I've heard people that have gone on his little tour. They have, like, a little van or a little walking tour. We need

Dani 1:33:19

to fucking

Stephanie 1:33:20

do that. They do tons of stuff, and I- I've h- some people at my work have done it, and they're like, "This is, this is legit." We need to

Dani 1:33:26

do it.

Stephanie 1:33:27

So props, Mark. Thank you for a great time. Thank you all. And all I've got to say is 10-4 rubber fucking ducky. Fucky.