Packaging Etcetera Podcast
The Packaging Etcetera Podcast is by and large a forum for discussing events and trends in the packaging industry. While packaging is the focus, Etcetera is a reference to an occasional wild card - maybe something serious and career focused, or something scientific or maybe even something fun and playful.
Packaging Etcetera Podcast
Rethinking Packaging: The Fiber Revolution with Guido Schmitz
Are plastic packaging’s days numbered? In this compelling episode, we explore the innovative world of fiber-molded packaging with industry expert Guido Schmitz. As the conversation unfolds, we dive into Guido’s impressive journey from a traditional packaging background to leading the charge in sustainable solutions. Discover how his work at Parpax is pushing the boundaries of what’s possible in reducing plastic usage through fiber-based materials.
Throughout our discussion, we shed light on the critical role sustainability plays in the packaging industry today. Guido shares insights regarding the urgency for change and the responsibility that lays not just with manufacturers but also consumers. By choosing eco-friendly alternatives, consumers can significantly influence corporate strategies towards more sustainable practices.
We also discuss the importance of patents in innovation within the fiber-molded packaging sector and the exploration of compostable materials that break down naturally without leaving harmful residues.
Listeners will walk away with a richer understanding of how fiber technology can provide both functional and environmental benefits, ultimately reshaping consumer perceptions of packaging and its implications on our planet. Join us as we engage in a thought-provoking dialogue on sustainability, innovation, and the potential of fiber-molded packaging to lead the way toward a greener future. Make sure to tune in, share, and leave a review to support our mission of spreading eco-conscious knowledge!
Hello everyone, welcome to this episode of the Packaging Etc podcast. Today we will be meeting with my longtime friend and industry colleague, guido Schmitz of PopAx, whose organizational focus is on replacing traditional plastic applications with fiber-molded packaging. Guido, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Hey, welcome, matthew. Nice to doing this with you, very excited.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you setting some time aside for us. So, if you don't mind, tell us a little bit about your background and how this molded fiber venture came to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I have a long career in the industry and I know matthew for a long time. I started very young in germany with buyer consumer health and I was in a kind of apprenticing. I started with 16 and I had different roles. I worked in engineering, I worked on design project, research project, so so I did a lot of different things, mostly in the early stage development in consumer health products.
Speaker 2:So in 2003, I get the opportunity to go for three years on an international assignment to the US to be a part of a new development team with focus on the global footprint of OTC development. And I'm still in the US. I love it. I had different big projects. I worked on technology improvements. I did a lot of packaging change, but also I worked on the formulations and that gives me my view, what I have today that I cannot say I cannot separate packaging from the formulations. And that gives me my view, what I have today that I cannot separate packaging from the product anymore. I have to see the whole picture.
Speaker 2:So in my career I was assigned 2010 in the buyer executive innovation team. So it was actually a board assignment, what makes me very proud and that was a kind of a wild card for me that I almost can do what I want and show that the organization had a lot of belief in me. After this, I also started to lecture at the University of Rutgers in the packaging engineering department and I lecture product design on packaging innovation. After 40 years I didn't see myself in the company anymore because I didn't want to put profit before human health. I like to do what is important. So I was able to left under good terms and I started the implementation of paypex america here in the us and our focus right now is a plastic free packaging how we can turn nature products in viable packaging solution. I doing this. I have a lot of contacts in the industry. It's a very early stage industry but with a big future in my mind.
Speaker 1:So your work is right at the heart of the giant sustainability initiative that's facing packaging in pretty much every manufacturing industry.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, Our focus is really take nature products, turn them in fiber and then in three-dimensional objects, and everything what we do is fossil-free. Let me say it's very hard to say PFAS-free, because PFAS is everywhere, but our materials don't contain any PFAS. And, yeah, our focus is to replace as much plastic as we can.
Speaker 1:No, that's great. That's a great initiative. I know every industry function you attend, regardless of which subset of packaging you belong to, the S word sustainability is the biggest hot button going in the industry. So you know, great to hear you guys making efforts and inroads on trying to go greener. So I understand that you own several patents. Would you mind telling us about some of the patents you have?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in my career at Bayer I have a lot of packaging design, like the Aspen and a leaf bottle with a soft touch. We were able to have a design protection on this. I have multiple process patents, but I think they're kind of old. So in the last 10 years of my life at Bayer I actually decided I don't want patents anymore because it's a lot of work but you have nothing from this. So I have processed a patent to improve production capability output. I have formulation patents with some aspirin on a global footprint and then also with changes of packaging structure, and I actually, and lately in my new adventure at Parpax, I reboot my thinking about patents. So we do. I cannot talk too much because they're not public right now. I'd be working right now on a couple of application patents regarding fiber packaging with nature barrier coatings.
Speaker 1:Okay interesting.
Speaker 2:And then Parpax by himself. As an organization, we have around 75 partners around improvement of fiber, fiber molding and actually also nature coating. What is key to deliver shelf life or replace plastic.
Speaker 1:Kind of one of those top gun moments. Right, it's top secret information. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.
Speaker 2:No, not really. But I had to call my lawyer yesterday and he said look, we have to do the provisional first, what we're preparing right now, and then we can talk. It's all about taking nature product in terms of an application that is around for years and no big changes. We make it only worse because we put more color, we put more inks, we put different things and we make it not actually recyclable anymore. And then you're coming and say look, fiber absorbs moisture. I do a natural barrier coating and then I have a kind of yeah, moisture protection inside and I have consistent conditions and I can put certain products, what you and I, like matthew, put in, and you have a new packaging system.
Speaker 1:So so how sorry. How would, how would the um the molded fiber products fit in with single-stream recycling?
Speaker 2:Yeah, first is we have to see what kind of fiber we use, that we in a paper stream, and if you have, let me say, normal transportation inserts, they're purely hardwood, softwood paper that pulps them so they separate the lignin and all the cellulose that we don't need from each other, put an end and then you can throw it in a paper stream or actually in your backyard. They disappear after a couple of months. So it's not that this package will be around 600 years, couple of months. So it's not that this package will be around 600 years and will be maybe longer than 120 days, but it's. It goes away in under a year. So I do a lot of our packaging, our trials, what we do. I test them by myself, put dirt in and grow my earbuds and put them in my backyard and see where they're going. Yeah, so the whole fiber molding products in nature it's. I take straw, other stuff. Uh, I'm not sure that does always work in a paper stream, but it is at least compostable or degradable yeah, so.
Speaker 1:So five to ten years from now, everybody could have their own personal compost heap in the backyard. It would make my father happy. He was always preaching about using crushed eggshells and used coffee grinds to help my grandmother's roses grow. I remember that from when I was a kid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually. So I try to live what I do. So I started to compost and I have different areas how I do this. Some area I have a composter that I put everything in, with not thinking Everything, what is nature I put in, and the other one I put coffee grinds. And now we open a new fiber creative center here in New Jersey and actually I will have outside certain areas with different soil, with different asset levels, because to really understand what my packaging is doing. So we really focus on I have no environmental impact.
Speaker 2:You said a couple of times sustainability. This is around for a long time and when you're looking in sustainable business, it's actually maintaining status. I personally believe we need a little bit more. We need to really understand the impact of this, what we do, and to make the changes. What we have to do, it's by us first. So if we start to compose, if we can not everybody has a backyard but if you be a little bit more conscious what we use and which material we use and maybe pay a little more, but the environmental input is actually less, that would help. So I personally believe the movement has changed what is necessary to reduce CO2 emissions. We have to make the pressure on the big brands that they know the consumer looking for these new solutions and pushing this stronger than they do.
Speaker 1:So do you think that there could be a potential application for a secondary market, the reuse-re uh concept with farming and agriculture is is there any? Is there any reason to believe that the compostability of the molded fiber packaging could be used to leverage improving soil quality for farming?
Speaker 2:yes, yes, but these are all. As I said, the fiber molding is a very old technology, is around 400 years, 400 years and we did XCUT but there was no development, no improvement over the last 60, 70 years. So there has to be a lot of research to be done. I know that a lot of universities like Rutgers, penn State, staunton they're looking at the impact of fiber, compose them and put them back to the field the impact of fiber, compose them and put them back to the field. Or we have, for example, a process that we develop with the transportation tray, that we actually build a circular system.
Speaker 2:We work with a glass company. They put the glass vials in plastic. Now they use our fiber tray, they move the vials in this. The packaging, the glass vials and the fiber trays goes to the brand. They fill it up with high-end cosmetics. We take the transportation tray back and repulse it and we figured out that about 15 times we can do this in a circle. So if you do this right, you can be your own fiber supplier. You have to always sometimes put fresh pulp in or fiber in, but you can actually be your own supplier and reuse your fiber multiple times.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And then you save money. Yeah, that's actually it, but these are little projects. Yeah, when you do this on a big scale, it looks different. So I think there's so much potential if you bring the right people together. I'm always my whole life I believe you're only so good to the people you're working with If you bring the right people together. I think we can improve a lot of our current system. Not in every area, but we can do a lot.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more. No, that's a great point. I also wanted to ask you you had mentioned that I think you said 2003 you moved to the US, so growing up in Germany, if you don't mind, tell me a little bit about what that was like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was very interesting. So I grew up in a buyer family. My whole family worked for Bayer and I usually say before I was 15, I never met somebody before. That doesn't not everybody. Somebody in the family didn't work for Bayer, yeah. So for me it was very clear my career is for Bayer. So for me it was very clear my career is with Bayer. So my family has about 300, 400 years family history and a lot of my friends have the same. So I'm growing up in Germany with soccer. For me, for us at this time, soccer was everything. I played, my whole week, every day. I was out on the field and played and I had a kind of a let me say, amateur career at at soccer in germany. I played a german military national team with some very famous soccer player, but then I had an accident and my life was over, my soccer life yeah and then I started my apprentice at Bayer and Bayer was really, really a good company, really family focused.
Speaker 2:If your parents work with Bayer, you get an apprentice. It doesn't matter how good is your education or your school or which direction you go, but you can have a very decent career with Bayer. And that's what I did. I started with apprentice, then developed myself through this and then what I think I started with apprentice, doing development through this. And then what I think is when you have an engineering career, you always try to look what we say over the plate. Some people stay on the plate, but we always try to look in different areas. And yeah, I'm very thankful for my time at Bayer, but I'm more thankful now my time here in the us and what I do and with all the connection. So the life in germany was good but I think, to develop your talents in the right direction and grow also as a person, but also financially, if you ask a better country to work than Germany that's an interesting point.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned soccer Bundesliga. Who's your team?
Speaker 2:Bayer Leverkusen oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Is that a birthright in your family, based on where you grew up, or is that a choice?
Speaker 2:I don't know. My family was. Nobody in my family was by a liverpool and my brother, the fc girlfriend my parents, was both munchen, glabach I I. Liverpool was close, I can walk to a stadium. I was in a second league, then they were coming to bundesliga and last year they won actually the two biggest titles in Germany. It took them 60 years to do this, so actually I flew over.
Speaker 1:Did you really I?
Speaker 2:was invited and I flew over to the last game and I got the championship trophy and I saw, with a lot of my best friends, the cup final that they also won and I went to the homecoming. It was actually pretty cool. I think Leverkusen has about 160,000 people living in the city and 200,000 people were on the street so everybody. It was very amazing how a good sports team can push a movement in a town. It was very cool to see that in every window was flags and we are one team and that's what I like. We are one team, so it's not only the team that plays, it's also the support of us. I like this a lot.
Speaker 1:I've always been jealous of the international stage when it comes to, well, world football. But soccer, you know, growing up in the States, you know we didn't really have the and we still don't have, although MLS, I think, is coming along a little bit. We don't have the same level of talent and the same level of passion. So I have yet to see a game in an international forum. I've seen a few games at MetLife in the old Giant Stadium, some international friendlies and whatnot. But maybe 10, 15 years ago I became a Tottenham Hotspurs fan and that's kind of a funny story how I started rooting for them. I basically said I'm not going to pick the top three. I'm not going to pick the bottom three because I don't want to get relegated. So that left me with 14 teams to choose from. And you know, through really, really random, you know high school level assessment skills, I landed on Tottenham. So I've been rooting for them ever since. But listen, they've been relevant in the Premier League, so it's been fun to watch.
Speaker 2:I have to disagree with the us talent. What I see right now is the us developed really a lot of soccer talents and when you see how many american player plays in the european leagues and that's key you have to put your talent in competition. When I'm looking here high school soccer and I saw a lot of talents but they play against other high schools and the good player played the not so good player and I think in Europe you see they put the best players play against the best players and that makes the players better. That's also in in real life. We have to identify our good talents and put put them out in real competition in the world and I'm pretty sure if they have the right coaching, us can actually play a role.
Speaker 2:In 26 there was a world championship championship because they have key players in Europe in good teams and if they get the right coaching together and with good support. What is maybe the question here in the US in soccer? Because when you see the European fans it's different. The fans can actually push a team, but I think the US is on a good way to have a decent, decent team in world soccer.
Speaker 1:I think we're definitely headed in the right direction. I just don't think. I don't think we're there yet. We're not. We're not in that conversation of hey, you know, world Cup 26 is around the corner, you know, you know we're, we're we're hosting, or or three countries are hosting, but US is one of them. You know, a lot of times you'll you'll see that the host team is expected to make it out of the group stage and really make some noise into the knockout rounds. And you know, you kind of hedge your bets with the US team. You're like you're not entirely sure what you're going to get. So I remain guardedly optimistic and hopeful, but you know we're not there yet. So I did want to ask you.
Speaker 1:It's always interesting working in the packaging industry. Everybody comes into the industry with a different background, right. But I have yet to meet someone that has said I've wanted to work in packaging my entire life. Right, they always kind of fall into it, if you will, myself included. But just out of curiosity, when you were a kid, what was your? What was your dream job? What did you want to be when you grew up?
Speaker 2:You know I want to be a soccer pro, but I realized it's not happened. I I I love a quote. As always, when I start my lecture, I always start with a quote from Mark Twain. There are two important events in your life the first when you're born and the second when you figured out why and I think that's the key when somebody early know I like to work in packaging and go for this and understand what he has to do, he will have a good career and it will be a nice life because he do this what they want.
Speaker 2:And I see this in my students. I think I have one student this year. I have to say I do this now for my 10th semester. I only take seniors, but I never had a talent in my class like this year. Yeah, and this is what I try. Oh, he has a talent and he's good in packaging. He's already 20 and he's doing his own business in packaging, prototyping. So these kinds of people you have to find. I would say I figured out what is really my talent when I came to the US, not before I will jump between jobs and I know what I like to do, but uh, I was. I really was clear that's a packaging. Let me say a holistic approach. In packaging that means understand product technology and materials. Uh, came very late to me.
Speaker 1:Okay For me. I Well, I guess I'm still holding out hope that the Yankees are going to call and ask me to play third base for them. I was always, you know, your prototypical American kid with a deck of playing cards in my back pocket, a ball cap on and a baseball glove and a baseball. That was my passion growing up. Either that or when the movie Top Gun came out with Tom Cruise, I wanted to be a Top Gun pilot but claustrophobia kind of took me away from that. But hey, listen, I've had a wonderful ride in packaging well over 20 years now in my career in this industry and I love it and have zero interest in moving out of the industry. So I see myself sticking with it, obviously for the rest of my career.
Speaker 2:I would say same for me. Let me say, in this packaging for a while I had a great success. I met really good people and I think the packaging industry is a good industry to be in and for young kids. If they're really committed and good, they can have a good career in this. And you see, we have about 500, 600 packaging students every year graduate and there are more jobs in the packaging world than we have packaging engineers. So that's a good opportunity and I love it too. And I think the area that I'm in right now it's actually a new chapter, and I said when I was in my packaging world and pharmaceutical I go on the trade shows. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of vendors all over the world. When I go in my packaging trade shows connected to fiber molding, there are few and there's a good, good opportunity for a lot of people to shape this industry in a direction that actually is good for the environment.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah Well, and we're both granted, we're at different points in our career but, being veterans in the game, our jobs now turn more towards mentoring the future of this industry. The thing that amazes me the most about packaging is the fact that the people that I have met throughout my career, how passionate they are, how we share that passion of this industry and the dynamic that it brings and new experiences every day. I can't think of other industries and again, maybe it's just because this is my passion of other industries and again, maybe it's just because this is my passion, but I can't think of other industries where I've spoken to people where they seem to be as passionate about their job and what they do. It's really kind of an interesting perspective when you think about the type of experiences you can have throughout your career within the packaging industry. I really do think it's unique in that respect.
Speaker 2:I agree. And also, when I start my semester, the first thing what I say is I don't lecture a book, I lecture my life. I lecture this what I believe the next generation of packaging engineers need to know. It's not what somebody read. It's this what you need to know. It's not what somebody read. Is this what you have to in the influence, what you try to have in your world? Yeah, and if you like to write package spec specification and you're happy, fine. If you like to identify the future material, even better. Yeah. So I think it's a very nice area to work in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So. I'm I'm hoping that we'll have some, some packaging students dip into this episode. So, knowing that you have, you know, experience with with teaching at Rutgers, and thank you for that. You know experience with teaching at Rutgers and thank you for that. You know me being a Rutgers grad, I definitely do appreciate people from industry lending their talent and experience and knowledge, you know, to the future generations. But what advice would you offer a student, a packaging student, either in college or a recent graduate that was interested in getting involved in the molded fiber movement? If you will, what would you say to that person, you know, if they asked you for some free advice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, let me say that's a growing industry and I said there are a handful of people that are really in this industry. And I said there are a handful people. They're really in this. And then what I still feel is what I feel in every industry we have the people that build the machine. We have the people that grow fiber, how I process it. We have the people that make fiber pulp and make paper and other things.
Speaker 2:So it's really try to understand nature, what products or what nature is doing to protect itself and how I translate this in future environmental packaging, solution and specific and fiber.
Speaker 2:Right now, for example, I clean up my backyard and there was a leaf and I started to think what can I do with this? So it's always try to go with open eyes to the world and try to learn what actually Earth is doing and how I can translate this to my current job and make something better. So that's usually what I try to say to the students is go with open eyes to the world, try to see the bigger picture and, if you like to understand fiber or environmental packaging, see what is out there, how a tree works, how different animals protect themselves for the environment, and then learn out of this and translate this in packaging and start to dig deeper in fiber molding, because that's not that hard, I would say, if you're connected to the right people, and this is an area that will grow and there's not too many experts, and I think this is a good area for a young person to dig deeper to understand the whole nine yards. I would say it's start to educate yourself. There are a few books, there's not a lot.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a lot of opportunities, a lot of opportunities available for someone that would be interested.
Speaker 2:hint, hint yeah, I tell you it's where, what fiber I can use, what actually test methods. I need to know is it compostable, recyclable, uh, how I process uh a tree to a pole, what is the waste product? What can I do with it? I think there's so much opportunity in different direction. It's a good area to understand for the future, I think.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. During that response you mentioned about knowing the right people. So the old adage, it's not what you know, it's who you know. So, from a networking perspective, I could sit here and I could give you a laundry list of people that have influenced me throughout my career, but I was curious if there's any one in particular, or one or two people that you feel have been a big influence on your professional life that you'd like to give a shout out to yeah, let me say, uh, when you're looking on professional life, that there are a few areas.
Speaker 2:So I I work, uh, I'm very close to one of the top designer. Brand agents was a brand agency now. She headed the master of branding in uh in new york, uh, in school of visual artists, debbie millman. She was very influential for me the way how they think, the way how she she interpreted design and I tried to as an engineer, how you adapt design. So I would say she had a huge influence.
Speaker 2:Okay, another good friend of mine is elizabeth taylor man. She is a brand strategist. So to understand what a brand has to do that you buy and she do strategic work and we both develop a new innovation process together called step, stretch and leap. So I translate this to the packaging world and she translates this to the branding world. What is the step is stretch and leap, and then I would say it's not influential for me in my thinking, but I'm very think uh tassin duck, the inventor of the founder of pop-ups.
Speaker 2:He left a sales shop with a big vision to reduce plastic and see all the elements and go after this to drive where Parpax is today, and also with a big vision where we'd like to be in five years with partners. So I would say these three people were the two were influential on, shape my thinking, uh, and added direction for me. And yeah, I think I would say I like where he's going and I like when you see his, his career. He started young, young, young. He went 10 years ago he working on this journey and he started in a garage and up and down and the last three years became really the change. So always believe this is the right thing to do and don't listen to everybody around you and almost be bankrupt. These are people that I really admire in their work and their kind of influence.
Speaker 1:No, that's great, Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Well, we're getting pretty close to the end here. I did want to again thank you very much for taking your time and participating. I would love to have you back on again down the road, maybe a year from now, two years from now, who knows. I would love to learn about all the growth that fiber molding has made since our recording here today and see kind of what's new and what's going on with you. I also understand that you will like to enjoy a good cigar, as do I, so maybe next time we get together and put together a podcast episode, we can share some cigars.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do something very different. I'm all for cool, different things.
Speaker 1:That's great. Well, guido, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it. Thanks everyone for listening in and stay tuned for the next episode. Thanks so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you, bye, bye.
Speaker 1:Bye.