Packaging Etcetera Podcast
The Packaging Etcetera Podcast is by and large a forum for discussing events and trends in the packaging industry. While packaging is the focus, Etcetera is a reference to an occasional wild card - maybe something serious and career focused, or something scientific or maybe even something fun and playful.
Packaging Etcetera Podcast
Sustainable Futures: EPR in Action
The packaging industry stands at a critical inflection point as Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR) policies gain momentum across the United States. In this revealing conversation with Rob Kesabowski, Managing Director for Packaging Optimization at NTT Data, we cut through the complexity to understand how these regulations are reshaping the entire packaging landscape.
Rob brings over 20 years of packaging expertise to explain how EPR shifts waste management costs from consumers back to manufacturers and brands. While this concept has existed for decades in Europe, it's now taking root in America state by state, beginning with Oregon and soon expanding to Colorado and California. The implications are far-reaching - companies must now track exactly what materials they're using, how much packaging they're selling into each state, and prepare for fees that could significantly impact their bottom line.
What makes this conversation particularly valuable is how Rob balances the financial reality with the innovative potential. These policies create economic incentives for more sustainable packaging by making less recyclable materials more expensive. We explore real examples where previously cost-prohibitive sustainable options become competitive when EPR fees are factored in, potentially accelerating the adoption of greener packaging technologies.
The discussion dives into the practical challenges companies face - from data infrastructure needs to navigating the complex requirements across different states. As the president of the revitalized IOPP Packaging Consultants Council, Rob also shares insights on how packaging professionals are mobilizing to address these changes collectively.
Whether you're a packaging professional, sustainability manager, or simply curious about how these policies might affect the products you buy, this episode provides a clear roadmap through the changing regulatory landscape. Subscribe now to stay ahead of the packaging industry's sustainable transformation and discover how these changes might actually lead to better, more environmentally responsible packaging solutions.
To connect with Rob on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/robkaszubowski/
If you want to learn more about NTT Data:
And if you are in need of a packaging consultant:
Welcome back. Today we'll be talking about extended producer responsibility and its impact on the packaging industry. Joining me is Rob Kazabowski, Managing Director for Packaging Optimization at NTT Data. Rob has a degree from the University of Wisconsin Stout and, like myself, is a lifetime certified packaging professional through IOPP. Rob, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks, matt. Excited to be here, excited to talk about packaging.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I appreciate you joining me today. So, as I do with all my guests, please take a minute and just kind of introduce yourself to everyone.
Speaker 2:You bet. So, rob Kesabowski, like you mentioned, I lead a team of packaging consultants at NTT Data Been in the packaging space for over 20 years, so a long history working with a lot of different companies, materials, challenges, products, and so that part of it keeps it fresh and interesting Didn't initially start out in packaging. I think that story is pretty common for a lot of people in our field. I think that story is pretty common for a lot of people in our field. Initially started off in a different engineering space, but my sophomore year at UW-Stout and decided to make a change.
Speaker 1:Took an aptitude test, ended up taking an introductory packaging class and really fell in love with it, and the rest is history, as they say. It's interesting and I've talked about this in other episodes and in my intro episode as well, about how I got into it and very, very similar story. You know different engineering discipline and something you know a common theme that I've referred to throughout these episodes is that light bulb moment for people that once they finally learn about packaging and how many of us have that light bulb moment either in college and then switch into the packaging field or get their degree, get out of school and then find out about packaging and, and just you know, fall in love with the industry and decide to make it a career.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember my freshman year one of my friends at the dorms was a packaging major and even back then I mean I was super ignorant to what it even meant, and so I'm sure I made fun of him of, like you're going to be packing groceries or working at UPS.
Speaker 2:And then the next year I had that light moment again with taking some of the aptitude tests of, well, you like math and science, but you also like to be creative and draw and sketch, so maybe packaging is a fit for you. And I took this class called packaging in society and I've had this conversation with other peers of mine and they were like I took that class too and it was so transformative. And so shout out to professor tom voss, who was the professor for that class at the moment. He just made it super interesting and it talked about all different aspects of packaging and how it touches your life as a consumer and how it's such a broad category. So I think that really opened up my eyes to the potential and the possibilities and try to get that message out to a lot of other. You know, college students, high school level students, same thing Like it's something really to consider when you're, when you're looking for that career path.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what I find amazing is, if there are and I'm not going to know the exact number, but for argument's sake let's just say there's 2000 institutions of higher learning in the US alone and there's less than 20 schools that offer packaging programs, and just how big the industry is you would think that more colleges, universities, et cetera would catch on and start up their own programs, but I'm amazed that it's still such a limited number.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so, additionally, I'm on the UW Stout Packaging Advisory Council and that's one of the discussions we have as well is it's such a wide category and you can do so many things in the field. So if you think about research and development, traditional packaging, engineering development, you can be in a sales role, you can work for material suppliers, equipment, technical services, distribution, testing. I mean it goes on and on, and so it's so wide, and then within each of those segments there can be maybe some subject matter expertise that if you find you want to hitch your wagon to a certain area or a certain field within packaging, I mean there's lots of opportunities.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I could not agree more. And well, one of those opportunities is our topic of conversation for today. So extended producer responsibility. If you wouldn't mind, kind of give a 30,000 foot view of exactly what EPR is.
Speaker 2:You bet. So yeah, extended producer responsibility, EPR there are a lot of acronyms within packaging and now even more acronyms within EPR and sustainability. So even more acronyms within EPR and sustainability. So EPR is a policy approach where producers are now going to be responsible for the end-of-life management of their packaging and in this case, the term producers and I say that with air quotes producers are the brands and the manufacturers, so not the packaging material suppliers. It's the companies that are making and and the manufacturers, so not the packaging material suppliers. It's the companies that are making and producing the goods. And essentially, this will shift the cost of the waste management, the recycling, the end of life from citizens such as you and me back to the manufacturers. So I'll ask an example here matt, like if you go to the store and you have some munchies, like what's your go-to snack, you're grabbing off the aisle if I'm trying to be healthy, I'm going almonds.
Speaker 1:A good friend of mine turned me on to the wasabi and soy flavored almonds that are uh, that are amazing they're, and I like spicy, so that's right up my alley.
Speaker 2:Those are good, but if I'm going unhealthy I gotta go old school doritos I agree with both those choices, for for the same reasons, but so for for that example, you don't necessarily get to choose what packaging material the almonds or the Doritos come in.
Speaker 2:So when you're done consuming the product, you're stuck and you have to either put it in the waste can or recycling or compostable potentially. But that cost and that burden is on you every month to pay for your local waste management pickup, and so that's where this will shift back to the producers to help make those decisions with overall goals of reducing waste. You know, if you think of the core tenets of sustainability reduce, reuse, recycle that's still the underlying driver here, and so there'll be some fees that will roll out to the producers. Those will be based on material weight and composition. So, depending on what the material is and how recyclable it is, there's varied levels of fees. So they'll be paid per pound or per ton, depending on the volume that you ship into these respective states, and essentially it's going to act as the funding mechanism to help improve and grow infrastructure for waste management, for recycling, as well as education for consumers.
Speaker 1:Okay, I guess the first question that comes to mind for me is I guess the first question that comes to mind for me is what would stop a producer from taking those fees and recouping those costs by just increasing their prices?
Speaker 2:In effect, pushing that cost back onto the consumer. That is one of the challenges is the financial aspect of it, and so, for starters, oregon is the first state. Well, I guess I'll back up. So EPR has been around for a long time. It's been in infancy stages even in the United States for over 10 years, but now Oregon is the first state to finalize their requirements and have that first stake in the ground for setting the stage for all this. And so their initial reporting deadline was just recently, at the end of March 2025 here, and their first rollout of fees will be due in July. And so the kicker is Oregon, by population volume, is still only about 1% of the population. So the fees as they roll up, depending on how much you sell into that state, they're probably not going to be too substantial, but as other states come on board, those fees will start to compound for the producers.
Speaker 2:Now, going back to your point, what does this mean for consumers? Same thing. So, depending on the packaging, let's use the almonds or the Doritos, for example those are going to be lighter weight materials. It might only be pennies, but if you look at it as a percent of their margin on those products, now you're going to see a 10% to 20% hit on margin, and that's not necessarily something that the producers are going to want to foot the bill for or own the burden for, and there's multiple layers to that too. So, even though it might be a penny increase, there's multiple touch points throughout the value chain where there's going to be the ripple effect. So now a penny turns into 10 cents. So that combination of cascading fees that will at some point either need to be, you know, consumed by the producer or pass through to consumers.
Speaker 1:So I guess an EPR program is more or less I don't want to say I don't want to use the word masked, but it's probably the best one that's coming to my mind right now Masks itself as a program to force more sustainable options at the producer level to avoid these types of fees on the back end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's correct. I mean, from my perspective it's going to help to drive accountability and so it will hold companies more responsible and accountable for their packaging selections. So even again, like the Almond or the Dorito example, are there better materials? And there's a lot of complexity that goes into that. I think from my perspective we always see a lot of armchair packaging engineers. Everybody loves to be in on the brainstorm sessions and what about this, what about that?
Speaker 2:But there's a lot of layers of complexity in this case both to the EPR bills and what's possible and how does it move the needle, and then also at the manufacturer site.
Speaker 2:I mean there's a lot of layers of complexity to make sound packaging choices. A lot of the different technical levers around performance, protection, equipment, shelf life, cost all of these things are layers to packaging selections, that it's not always a binary A to B transition or option on the table, and so I think to that point too, like having visibility and some transparency to the data. So things like what materials are we using, how much do we use, what are those associated fees I think that'll be positive for producers and for packaging engineers and adjacent business functions. You know we think of procurement and even on operations side of things. How's this all tied together? And that visibility and transparency to what the materials are, but then also to help stimulate different innovation around designs, materials. Going back to some of the technical levers, how do we reduce the weight or get to something that's more mature in recycling infrastructure? I think those are some of the positives around this conversation with EPR.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you mentioned Oregon, kind of at the forefront domestically. I did do a little bit of homework before our recording today and learned that I guess Sweden was the first country. You know European. No surprise there, they always seem to be at the forefront of, you know, sustainability and environmental impact initiatives. But Sweden, going all the way back to 1991, is when EPR, I guess, got its start, and I don't know if it was necessarily under that name or acronym, but the effort was there.
Speaker 1:And then just recently, in January I believe, the UK just passed federal legislation as well. So at the federal level, within a country, in my mind it might make a little bit more sense. It might be a little bit more linear as to how that program is applied and what type of organization would provide oversight. But when you get to the US and you are rolling it out at the state level, I imagine that becomes more complicated. I work for a fortune 500 company that makes products and I have plants in 12 different States. I'm incorporated in a state that does not have any current EPR legislation but one of my plants is in Oregon per se. How would something like that impact my organization? Or or is it? How is it only applied at the level where I am incorporated?
Speaker 2:It applies to the level as to where the goods are sold, and so that also ties back to having good data infrastructure, so being able to delineate how much is sold at each of these states and then what packaging, what film materials, what compositions make up that product or that packaging system. And, to your point, the United States is a little bit different than the European Union. At the moment. All of this continues to evolve really quick. At the moment, all of this continues to evolve really quick, and so there's a lot of layers of complexity to understanding, especially if you're a global company, understanding how it's different in the UK or Europe or Canada now versus what's going on in the United States. Again, oregon is the first, colorado and California to follow, and so, from like a reporting infrastructure standpoint, there is a producer responsibility organization or the PRO, and so they will be the key administrator on behalf of the states, so not at the federal level but at the state level, and they build the rules and the structure across the different states to help reduce some of that complexity and then also orchestrate and collect and distribute the fees. And, at the moment, the CAA again a lot of acronyms.
Speaker 2:The CAA A lot of acronyms the CAA, circular Action Alliance. That is the current pro for Oregon and I believe they've also been selected for Colorado and California. So there are some synergies there from a reporting standpoint. So you wouldn't have to submit your data to multiple organizations or multiple groups. Yet to be determined as other states come on board, if the CAA will be there pro or if a new organization pops up. But yeah, that'll be the single entity. Okay, now the. The part that still makes it a little complex is there's still some nuances to the laws and the fees have not been scheduled for Colorado or California. So ideally they'd align and they'd harmonize a little bit. But there still may be some nuances and some ebb and flow as the pen ink starts to dry there on some of those other bills, you know ink starts to dry there on some of those other bills.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so the this, this oversight group as we proceeded. Are they a government, what I guess, an NGO, non-government organization, or are they like a private company that is contracted by the States? You know how does how does that work?
Speaker 2:is contracted by these states. You know how does? How does that work Right? So they're a nonprofit, not a, not a government organization, so they're independent there, with the respects of the state and the producers.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you know, I, I, I hear you know kind of everything you're throwing out there, and I always, in order to rationalize things in my own brain, I try to compare it to something that I already have some intimate familiarity with, and so a perfect example in my mind would be I draw it to the luxury tax, would be similar to a company that says you know what, I don't care about these EPR regulations, I will deal with the additional costs, I'll pay my fines. But I want to put this out. This is the product that I want out for my consumers.
Speaker 1:Steve Cohen, owner of the Mets, decided to go out and spend $700 million on Juan Soto, and I can imagine he's not just doing that out of the kindness of his heart. Obviously he wants to win championships, he wants the Mets organization to be at the top. But I would also be willing to bet that a hot dog this year at Citi Field costs more than it did last year, and the jerseys that are sold in the stadium probably went up in price a little bit. So you know he's taking those, those extra luxury tax costs, and you know passing at least some of it on to the general consumer. So it sounds kind of like a similar program.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not sure the mechanics for each of the companies and the manufacturers and the producers, but yeah, I would anticipate that that is how it will pass through. For reference, I'll go back to the CAA. That group does have the backing and was founded with the top 25 national brands all behind the scenes to help support and build and structure that. So, going back to the Mets and the Yankees example, yeah, it's the big players who are sitting at the table helping to determine what this all looks like and how to build it and then extrapolate it out to the broader national manufacturers.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. National manufacturers that makes sense. So obviously current state EPR programs are still relatively in their infancy stages domestically. What does the next five to 10 years look like? I mean, obviously nobody has a crystal ball, but what's the expectation in the industry for EPR programs? I mean, are there deadlines, Are there initiatives to get all 50 states on board with EPR programs? Or you know, what does that rollout look like?
Speaker 2:So, like I mentioned, epr in the US it's been around for over 10 years but now, finally, I would say really picking up steam and momentum. I would say really picking up steam and momentum. And so there's some early adopters from additional states that have some initial legislation in the works. There's usually some back and forth to revising what that looks like before things get finalized, but definitely in the next five to 10 years it'll start to pick up pace where we'll get to a critical mass and so that might be either by number of states or again by population, and that'll drive the volume, which will drive the fees, which will drive more of the changes around infrastructure or materials or changes you might see on the shelf, either visibly, or that'll hit your pocketbooks because the fees will start to cascade out to consumers like you and me. I know we've had some discussions. There are some creative ways to balance out the fees and it might open up some doors for being more sustainable or having more recyclable materials.
Speaker 2:And we had one customer example where you know premature packaging engineering company or you know within the company, and so they're a little more proactive in their approaches. They're a food manufacturer. They were looking at some different flexible films. Years ago they had qualified them. It was able to perform at parody and meet all the check marks from uh equipment. You know, throughput speed, shelf life, performance, all those, all those fun metrics. But the cost at the time was 2x so it's cost prohibitive to introduce. But now if you stack up material A plus the fees, it's a lot closer to that alternative material. So there's ways to try to balance and get creative to reduce what your fee structure might be Understood.
Speaker 1:Any current projects you have going on right now that are either involved or, I would say, adjacent to EPR initiatives?
Speaker 2:Short answer is yes to both. So it kind of depends again on where companies are at in their overall maturity for this Everything from very upfront stages of we need to get our arms around the packaging data and the specs and just get organized there Again, depending on the shape and size of the company, so that they can get prepared for reporting as well as understanding what the fees are. We've done some work in the past where, again, being proactive and looking five, ten years down the road. This one example is, with California specifically in mind, looking at California requirements, understanding what the overall fees might be and just casting a wide net as far as what other options are out there. Options are out there, and so that's kind of a fun project where we get to get be creative and look at everything from different material structures to completely different packaging formats, you know. So everything from mild to wild, from a short term, can we make some tweaks and modify to long term. Do we need to be in something completely different? And one of the things that we found is, you know, case by case, it depends on what your product is and the requirements that you need to protect it and get it to the consumer.
Speaker 2:But there are some new fun innovations out there in the material space. Some of those might not be ready for broad scale and introduction. Some are still only available in Europe. It hasn't quite made its way to the United States. So again there's some balance and trade-offs of how do we pilot and test drive some of these things without converting our entire portfolio. So there's some due diligence and some proactive work. But on the flip side, we still need to sell product, we still need the business to be sustainable and because of the fluidity of EPR laws, you know there could be a fair amount of even research investment to understand that you might go down a certain path and hit a dead end and have to come back and reevaluate or if the bill changes, that might shift your target goal as well. So it's a lot to try to balance and uncover and it really is a case by case for each company to try and navigate the best path forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess it wouldn't be one of those one size fits all scenarios with how complex the you know your perspective, clients, organizations and needs and what pools they swim in from a target market perspective. There's a lot of intricacies that would go into, you know developing those types of programs. So you know talking about your consulting side a little bit more. I guess we didn't really talk about this much before, but you know if you could just tell us a little bit about NTT data and exactly what your organization does.
Speaker 2:Sure. So my group within packaging optimization. So we focus on end to end agnosticostic packaging solutions challenges. So I think oftentimes the term packaging gets thrown out as maybe a little bit of a misnomer, but really it's creative problem solving. So we help companies solve problems with their packaging and advance the value of packaging within their organizations, and typically we do that through a number of different ways. One is focused on cost savings and value engineering. The other is reducing damage and waste within their systems and their supply chains and the last one is helping to improve sustainability advancements.
Speaker 2:And so we don't necessarily make any packaging, but we try, try to help make it better for each customer, for their specific use case and their requirements, and to tie it all back, I mean even as far as the challenges and the complexity. That's why I think it's so fun because there's not always a straight line answer and we get to have those conversations to peel back the layers around the requirements and the constraints and then try to understand so what's the best option going forward? And when you stack up all those different metrics and attributes a lot of the things that I mentioned earlier there's options out there, but it's more complex to find it and then to make sure that it meets the needs of all the stakeholders. And I think that's typically where my team, where we shine to help navigate some of those conversations and find the best option and then implement it and do the work to do the testing, do the evaluation, do the line testing, do the distribution testing to make sure that we can get it out to market safely.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Okay, so working in the consulting space and in packaging leads me right into you know my next point, or my next line of questions, if you will. I'm well aware of this fact, but I don't know how many other people may be aware that you recently took charge in reinvigorating the IOPP Packaging Consultants Council and you are serving as acting president. I guess we'll have to work on making that official. But if you wouldn't mind take a minute and kind of talk a little bit about that and where that idea came from. And I know that the council used to be active Then I guess it went dormant for a while and you've kind of brought it back. But talk a little bit about the council, if you wouldn't mind.
Speaker 2:You bet yeah. So our group, we've always been pretty heavily involved with IOPP in general. So you know, great organization for every different level of your career from a networking perspective, finding jobs, education, and another element of that was technical committees. We've been involved in technical committees over the years and the other is the Consultants Council and so historically it had been 50 different individuals, boutique firms that provide some type of packaging consulting service, and then over time it just kind of fizzled out. So probably two plus years ago I got in contact with Jane Chase and Sarah Washburn at IOPP and kind of raised my hand to restart at IOPP and kind of raised my hand to restart, relight the fire.
Speaker 2:As for the consultants council, and so we've been doing it we're I don't know two plus years in as far as building up the, the library or the resources within the Consultants Council.
Speaker 2:And again, if you think about how wide and how many different areas of packaging there are, we're trying to bring that to the table from a consulting standpoint. So everything from materials science, r&d, innovation, technical equipment and even you think within all of those areas around equipment there might be some different subject matter expertise that's needed either at the front end of the line or back end of the line, or labeling, barcoding, palletizing. So now, depending on what you need, I mean there's a lot of different people out there that might need to tap into. So we're building up the resources within the Consultants Council. We're probably close to 15 different people now that all have different backgrounds and skill sets. Some are very deep subject matter experts, some are more, I guess, manner experts, some are more, I guess, rounded as far as you know their backgrounds and they can touch a lot of different parts of the packaging development cycle. But I think it's going good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was one of my questions. I was going to ask how many members you have. So 15 is, I guess, that's a good number.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going to continue to grow and so part of that is building awareness for packaging and building awareness for the consultants council. So we've got some marketing efforts and the goal there is so that as companies have challenges, they can reach out and there's some different resources out there through IOPP. And you know there's some different resources out there through IOPP. The PAC chat has been a good forum for if you have questions and you just need a single email type answer. But beyond that, you know the consultants obviously resources for hire, but also good resource if you had one-off questions to tackle some of those or obviously parlaying that into some work and project that they can support. But across all the different industries, right. So food, beverage, cosmetics, medical device, pharma equipment, protective packaging we check a lot of those boxes within the consultant's council now.
Speaker 1:That's great. Hope it continues to grow. So wanted to get a little personal to, I guess, give people an opportunity to understand a little bit more about who you are. So the questionnaire you had filled out, uh, you said you have five kids, and and two sets of twins.
Speaker 2:I do yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm sure that's gotta keep you pretty busy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're, we're to the point. They're older, they're a little more self-sufficient, but uh, yeah. So we have fraternal boys who are now 14, a single boy who's 11, and identical girls who are nine. So for a while there we had five under five, but we made it. You always look back and you think, man, how did we get anything done? How did we sleep? How did you function? But we made it. And now everybody's a little bit more self-sufficient. How did you function, but we made it. And now everybody's a little bit more self-sufficient. You know they can make their own breakfast and help cook and tie your own shoes. All that makes it a lot easier. So now we're just having fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can sympathize somewhat, but my spread was a little bit, or is a little bit different. So we had at one point college, high school and kindergarten all under the same roof. We had at one point college, high school and kindergarten all under the same roof. And now our youngest is 16 and working, making his own money which is always good saving up for a car. But yeah, that was interesting. That was an interesting challenge because we were dealing with late teen years, high school drama and kindergarten.
Speaker 2:So interesting from that perspective. Yeah, well, everybody's got different experiences and, yeah, different households, so I'm sure at some point we'll be able to learn from each other. Yeah, it's so funny, right like and obviously there's there's books, there's lots of resources, but it's all different, right, like. We have different kids, different personalities, different things that drive and motivate them, and so you're constantly trying to learn and adapt how to talk to your kids, how to motivate them, and I think a lot of that transfers, obviously to work, but just in general life as well, like being aware of a lot of those things. So it's been a lot of work, but also super rewarding and fulfilling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess growing up I always thought that I would be one of those fathers. That was. You know, I'm the fun father, I'm the one that is absolutely tied into what these kids are up to and you know what drives them and you know the ins and outs of their daily life and I am so far from that, you know, trying to understand the new lingo that they're. You know these new words they're making up and you know I'll use them. I have no clue the context, but I'll use them in the wrong context, intentionally, just to annoy my teenager and I'll get the eye roll or the bruh Bruh that's his big one right, I went from daddy to dad to bruh, so dealing with those reactions, but I do that just to taunt him just to have a little fun with him?
Speaker 2:Yeah, same him. Just to have a little fun with him, yeah, same. I like to throw some of that out there, because then you can tell when they're actually listening. If you throw out some lingo, they'll. They'll immediately look at you and say why are you trying? Why are you trying to be cool, dad? You're not cool. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember being that kid saying that to my father dad, you're not cool, you don't, you don't get it. So, yeah, my father has officially passed the torch. Now you also mentioned um, and this is a a big, hot button for me. You mentioned that you're big into hiking and you mentioned Appalachian trail. Now, obviously you know Wisconsin stout, you have the uh, the Midwestern accent, so have you had a chance to, to get on the Appalachian trail at all?
Speaker 2:No, it's just one of those things that's way way out there as as a bucket list type item. So with the five kids we're constantly trying to find a hobby that everybody likes and enjoys together and, and interestingly enough, just doing local hikes at state parks and we've done some national parks as well and everybody kind of holds their own and they have a good time. You know they're a little bit reluctant to get out the door.
Speaker 2:But once we get there, everybody's climbing on trees and up and on rocks and over things, and so it's super fun. So hiking is kind of the core thing that everybody likes to do. The Appalachian Trail was more just kind of a joke. You know, like what do you do when you retire. You know you take off six months and you grow a big beard and you hike down the Appalachian Trail. But I think there's something to be said for the adventure of it. And then being able to I don't know just be out in nature and then also have that accomplishment under your belt is something to strive for.
Speaker 1:So I've read a bunch of books, autobiographical in nature, of people that have done through hikes on the Appalachian Trail and on a lot of the long-distance trails. So you have the Pacific Crest Trail, you know, from Mexico to Canada. You have the Continental Divide Trail, which is the longest of the they call it the Triple Crown. For the rare few people that have completed all three as through hikes, but obviously me, being from the East Coast, and the Appalachian Trail has a short portion of it coming through New Jersey, where I live I've had the opportunity now, over the years, I've probably, I'm probably in somewhere in the hundred miles range between day hikes and weekend hikes between Pennsylvania, new Jersey and New York.
Speaker 1:So, and then I've, I've hiked the first, I guess the first 20 feet, uh, at the Southern Terminus down in Georgia.
Speaker 1:We have family outside of Atlanta and and during a trip down there, my son and I, on our drive home, decided to stop at the trailhead for Amicalola Falls, which is the Southern terminus, and we literally went about 10 feet past the stone arch, just to say we did it, and then got in the car and drove 14 hours home. So but yeah, that's, that's, that's on my bucket list as well as trying an attempt of the or attempting, I should say a through hike of the Appalachian trail. I actually have a map of it, uh, on the wall in my office and a little yellow post-it that says 2028 on it, because 2028 is the year my youngest will be uh, god willing off at college and I figured if I was ever going to do it when I was younger, that might be my opportunity. And now that I'm looking at it, I'm going. That's three years away, I have all the gear, but I probably need to start doing some training for something like that.
Speaker 2:I would agree. I feel like light years ahead of where I am. Mine is more just a pipe train at this point. So yeah, you're way ahead of me as far as research and prep, yeah, and then also just getting in shape. It's easy to say it, but unless you've been out and experiencing some of that and then doing some of the rough terrain and things like that, I know for sure I have a ways to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the things I would like to do and in New Jersey obviously I can drive.
Speaker 1:It's probably an hour and a half to two hours for me to get to the nearest point of the Appalachian Trail, which would be the Delaware Water Gap, right where it crosses from Pennsylvania to New Jersey.
Speaker 1:They're called trail angels or trail magic, and it's these just random members of the public that will set up along the trail and hang out for a day or a half a day and set up a table with a cooler and the cooler will be full of soda and water and all sorts of you know yummy snacks and they'll set up a barbecue grill and they'll make hamburgers and hot dogs and as the thru-hikers come through they're basically just handing it off to thru-hikers as kind of a support group.
Speaker 1:They're basically just handing it off to through hikers as kind of a a support group, kind of like the you know the, the tables of water, you know, along a marathon route, uh, you know, trying to help people as they get along. And I've read about how, how appreciative these through hikers are for for these random acts of trail magic and I thought, you know it'd be just kind of hang out and, and you know, speak to some of these people and meet them and understand what drives them and learn about their background and whatnot. So I thought that could be something fun to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's probably a good way to dip your toe on the water there and kind of see it firsthand. You can probably have some good conversations and learn a lot from the experience folks as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and interesting fact, you are statistically more likely to encounter a black bear along the entire Appalachian Trail in the state of New Jersey than anywhere else, even though it's maybe 30 to 50 miles worth of the trail only in New Jersey.
Speaker 2:But the population density of black bear up in that corner of the state is pretty much higher than anywhere else along the entire trail.
Speaker 1:You're ready, you've done all the research on bears, I think you're ready to go, man 2028. I just, uh, I the the the old joke uh, I don't have to outrun a bear, I just have to outrun you. So I just need to find a hiking partner. That's slower than me, so so I know that if we do have any, any issues, you know peace, I'm out.
Speaker 2:Well, I think they say you don't have to worry about black bears as much as as the other but no, they're, they're, they're pretty skittish.
Speaker 1:So in the East coast, at least in this area, you don't have too much to worry about. It does happen, but it's it's rare from what I understand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, We've. We've come across some um, we do some deer hunting back in Wisconsin, so we've come across black bears in the past and that yeah.
Speaker 1:So even if they are, yeah, about three weeks ago I had a listener reach out and make a suggestion. They said you know, what would be interesting is if each episode you were to present some type of a random fact, just kind of a you know fun fact kind of thing. And I know I already mentioned the black bear thing, but that wasn't really my intent there. I did a little research and I wanted to ask you if you've ever heard of Ethel the whale.
Speaker 2:Ethel the whale? No, I have not.
Speaker 1:So I just learned about her the other day foot long whale sculpture that is was made by, I think, santa Fe community college, but now is at the Monterey Bay aquarium in California. It holds the Guinness book of world records for the largest recycled plastic sculpture 82 feet long. I thought that was a an interesting random fact and it's packaging related, so I figured I'd check both boxes.
Speaker 2:So for comparison's sake now I'm trying to picture this in my head how long is a bus compared to Ethel the Whale?
Speaker 1:Oof, I would I don't know 40 feet.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's two school buses.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's massive.
Speaker 2:For a moment I thought Ethel the Whale was going to be a children's book, but not quite.
Speaker 1:I do remember years ago there was an ESPN zone in Manhattan. I went to a couple times and I remember when you would go up the stairs to the upper floors. There was a life size NASCAR frame and it was made out of aluminum cans and so obviously nowhere near as big as an 82 foot whale, but I always appreciated the artistry that went into creating this and again made from recycled packaging materials.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like how you're tying it back to packaging.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, I have some homework to do before I record my next episode. I'll have to find some more random facts. If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears.
Speaker 2:Random facts. Some more random facts. If you have any uh, any suggestions, I'm all ears. Random facts I'm sure I have tons, uh, but not in my back pocket, not pre-loaded.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 2:I mean, again going back to the kind of left brain, right brain, the, the creative side of packaging. Yeah, I'm always impressed with anything you know from a creative standpoint, especially, especially our office at NTT. We're pretty close to the sculpture garden in Minneapolis and so, same thing, there's always interesting pieces as they add and evolve with what the sculpture garden looks like, but it's always really impressive and, because it's not my area of expertise, it's always kind of mind blowing as far as how you actually make some of that stuff. You know beyond just the, the idea and the creative, but in the initial sketch but like, okay, how are we going to actually make this and make it look cool? So super impressive, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I guess that that kind of gives me, um, an interesting hook. So for anybody out there listening, if you have a, uh, something you think is really interesting, uh, you know, random fact that that is either packaging related or packaging adjacent uh, you know, please reach out wwwprecisionengsolutionscom, send me a, send me a note through the contact us form. You know, if you get selected, you'll get a shout out in one of my future episodes. With that, it looks like we're kind of up against time here. So thank you again so much for your time. I appreciate your insights into EPR and best of luck with the consulting and best of luck with the Consultants Council. Again, I hope to see that continue to grow. I think it's a great service and a great opportunity to connect knowledgeable people in the industry with potential projects and potential needs. So best of luck with that. Any final comments? Parting thoughts.
Speaker 2:No, I appreciate the time, Matt. This is really fun just to talk about packaging and EPR and life and in general, Like I said, always a fan of trying to elevate the packaging and EPR and kind of life and, in general, like, like I said, always a fan of trying to elevate the story and the awareness for packaging and the packaging industry, and I think you'd probably echo this message, Matt. But you know I know a lot about a lot within packaging, but if, as different challenges and problems come up, I love to just help connect people to the right expertise and the right answers to their questions. So, depending on if it's something industry related or, like I said, even at the high school level hey, job shadows, how can I get somebody in touch learn more about the packaging field? I really enjoy helping everybody navigate those conversations.
Speaker 1:That's great and thank you for that. Just real quick, in case anybody does need to reach out, please, what's the best way to get ahold of you?
Speaker 2:You can always find me on LinkedIn. That's probably the best spot You'll need to spell my name. So Rob Kesabowski. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. That's the easiest spot to find me.
Speaker 1:Okay, great, All right Again. Thank you so much. Everyone take care and we will talk to you again soon.