Packaging Etcetera Podcast
The Packaging Etcetera Podcast is by and large a forum for discussing events and trends in the packaging industry. While packaging is the focus, Etcetera is a reference to an occasional wild card - maybe something serious and career focused, or something scientific or maybe even something fun and playful.
Packaging Etcetera Podcast
The Only Bar That Makes Your Mug Jealous
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Okay, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the Packaging Etc. podcast. Today we have a special guest, Mr. Tom Seymour. Tom is with uh Bison Bag, and he also has his own entrepreneurial adventure, which I am really eager to learn more about. So uh with no further ado, allow me to introduce Tom. Tom, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Thanks for having me today.
SPEAKER_02:No, absolutely. Been looking forward to this one.
SPEAKER_01:We've been working, uh we've been waiting for quite a while here to get on and talk. So I'm excited to be with you today.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I thought what, third time's a charm, something like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so as has become kind of the standard here, uh if you wouldn't mind, start off with just a quick introduction of who Tom Seymour is, what you're up to, a little bit about your background, kind of give people a flavor for uh who you are and what you do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, thank you. So I guess the best way to describe myself is a very motivated um hustler that started very young, um, at a very young age, kind of obsessed with this idea of entrepreneurship. And no surprise, that led into a very successful career in hospitality, um, where I was fortunate enough to work in a uh fine dining establishment as head waiter and line steward, and then continuing to lean into that entrepreneurship and jump into sales role in packaging and food manufacturing. Then working towards uh my true dreams and aspirations of being an entrepreneur myself and starting Mocha Energy. At the base of it, it's about the hustle, also about solving problems and making connections. You know, I I'm flattered to hear this said by some of my folks in my network saying that I'm a super connector, which you know, I I don't like to self-describe like that. I think that sounds boastful, but apparently to other people, I am a super connector. And um, so growing and and building that Rolodex, I know that's a an old school. If if anybody's listening in their 20s and 30s, you probably don't know what a Rolodex is, but um, building that network and all those connections um has been really rewarding. Um, and so today I'm uh business development and marketing manager for bison bag company, uh Buffalo-based food flexible packaging manufacturer, uh, where I'm leveraging my background in food manufacturing, food product development, food safety, food science, um, everything throughout the supply chain to come alongside my customers and help them scale and grow their businesses using bison bags packaging. Um, and then, like I said, started my own food brand, Mocha Energy, uh, the country's first whole bean coffee bar. It's a portable cup of coffee. Um, you can take it with you on the go. 90 milligrams of caffeine, similar to uh a cup of coffee. Um, it eats like chocolate, but it it fuels and tastes like coffee.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's that's that's pretty crazy. I um I have to say, and I and I'm I'm sure I speak for Kristen here as well. And Kristen, feel free to chime in. But uh I I've really been looking forward to kind of no pun intended, peeling back the layers on this Mocha Energy venture of yours. So um really uh you know, really excited for you and and really eager to kind of learn more about it and and uh you know our listeners as well, uh give them an opportunity to learn about it. And then obviously we need to wrap up with where they can buy it because you know we gotta get that sales hook in there.
SPEAKER_00:As someone who has a cup of coffee in their hand pretty much all day, every day, currently a brand new cup. I I brewed right before we started talking. Um, when Tom shared this brand, I was like, okay, here we go. He I had to buy it instantly. So yeah, I think it's pretty, it's definitely a niche market where there's definitely an opportunity for people like me, like all three of us that are on the go to get a burst of caffeine in um in a way that's unique. So it's it's I'm excited too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thank you. It's it's landed with a lot of people. Um, I've had so much positive feedback at this point. I think I polled um over a thousand people. Um, trying to keep away from like my mom. I've certainly asked my mom her opinion, but you know, you gotta make sure you're going out and polling people that don't know you because your friends always want to um give you the best uh constructive criticism. And what I often tell people is constructive criticism needs to be direct. Um, it's like going to the gym. If you don't add any resistance, you'll never grow. And the same way with constructive criticism, if it's not direct enough, well then you're never gonna grow. And so, yeah, I hope that that this podcast um is able to inspire. I certainly am excited to tell you more about Bison Bag and Mocha Energy and the journey of an entrepreneur and the challenges that I've faced. But more than that, I hope it inspires other people to chase their dreams and realize that um entrepreneurship is possible for anybody that's willing to take the risk.
SPEAKER_02:So I I I really appreciate the way you just phrased part of that response, specifically around the constructive criticism part, you know, about your friends, because in my friend group, I am the ultimate troll. Um, and I'm sure Kristen can um can corroborate that, even even in the professional circles, people that I'm more comfortable with. I I love a good troll job. And um, so yeah, I'm I'm not gonna call it trolling anymore. I'm gonna call it constructive criticism in my friend group. I like that. So that's that's my new hook.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. You know how it goes. Like to make it more personal, like we've all gotten ready to go out at night, and you look to your significant other, and you're like, hey, does this look okay? I think the reason I've been married for 22 years and with my wife for 25 years is because she'll look at me and give me that direct no, go change that. That looks terrible, and that's not a bad thing. And you know, you just have to separate out your feelings from knowing that uh constructive criticism that's um direct and can sometimes feel harsh, the person is doing it for your own good, and it's only gonna help you grow and get better. Anything from simply changing an outfit to uh changing uh the way that you're doing something to chasing a dream, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:For me, no car if you don't take a little bit of constructive criticism, then you're just stale. You know, we started off this conversation before we recorded about how much we all love podcasts because you can grow from them and learn. And if you're not willing to take a little bit of feedback, especially from your significant other, I mean, if there's anyone who you should be able to receive it from being them, um, it's important. And sometimes you get tunnel vision too. I think probably when it's your baby, right? When you're chasing a dream, you feel like it's the best thing ever. So if you're not getting real constructive criticism, whether that be from family friends or people that don't know you, you're not gonna be able to see outside that tunnel and make changes that you need in order to grow the brand.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I'd also say it's really quite interesting when you look at like the root of folks and their their feedback to you that you know, they're trying to help. We're fortunate being people that grew up in the 80s and 90s, Kristen, maybe more 90s and early 2000s.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, 80s and 90s.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. So so we're fortunate. Like I I feel for the younger listeners because I feel like we grew up with a little bit of a grittier, you know. I played football and wrestling through high school and college, and um, I gotta tell you, the coaches were intense, and that intensity and rawness um developed something in me. And and I think it's a commonality that I find with people our age. Um, there wasn't a whole lot of uh safety guards in place when we were growing up, and I think probably the same going back generations, our parents and grandparents. And I feel like more recently we've become a little bit softer, and I don't know that that is always the best, like like we said, on the constructive criticism part. You certainly don't want people abusing other people, and you know, there's a line that has to be drawn, but at the same time, I feel like we tend to lean too far in the other direction and sometimes can do people a disservice by not by not being direct.
SPEAKER_02:There there needs to be course corrections or over over time, obviously. I mean, I remember I, you know, I'm I'm old enough to say that I grew up playing baseball, and I remember specifically the entire baseball team sitting in the back of the coach's pickup truck, and he drove everybody home from practice. Not exactly kosher when it comes to you know child safety. How far we've come from that type of moment, and I'm sure that's that this kind of stuff still happens somewhere, but by and large, I think people are are are much safer. And and you know, you know, we joke about oh well survival of the fittest. Uh, you know, if you're not holding on, then maybe you weren't meant to uh to continue kind of thing. But yeah, you know, I I feel like course correction is a definite necessity when you go too far in any one particular direction.
SPEAKER_00:Han, can you share with us like one of the things that you said was the hustle, and that really resonates with me because I think that again, I don't want to gloat or speak highly of myself, but I think that in this industry, especially on the sales side, the hustle is is something you either have or you don't. Um, and obviously through seasons of life that hustle can you know rev up or rev down. But can you share a little bit about that or you know, some of the things that you you have shared with us about what skills you need in order to be successful, or what skills you felt helped you be successful in this industry and how that kind of connects to the hustle?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure. I'll go way back and I'll try to make it quick. Um, as a kid, I was bigger than all the other kids. Uh, you know, at 14 years old, I was six feet tall and weighed 215 pounds. So a monster compared to other seventh graders. So you can imagine as a fourth or fifth grader, I was a big kid and I was able to walk to the corner store because of it when all the other kids couldn't. And I would walk up there, I'd I'd pick up uh crab apples in my neighbor's yard for a penny a piece, and I would take all those pennies up to Wilson Farms uh corner store and I'd buy candy and I'd load it into my wagon and I would go back through the neighborhood like a skippy truck, ringing a bell and and flipping candy to kids that couldn't go up to the store, making a profit. So I look back at that and I see that as like the genesis of like entrepreneurship in my life. Um, I don't see a lot of kids. It's funny because my kids have gotten into some entrepreneurship uh hustles in their in their childhood, which I guess is just genetic for me, but you don't see a lot of that. And I think like at the root, um having that drive is something that I feel like you're you're you're born with. It certainly can be developed, it certainly can be coached and grown. Um, but some people I think just naturally have it. Additionally, I think adversity. I tell people like I I lost more football games than I won in my career. And I lot I learned so much more from losing than I ever did from winning. So adversity has built a lot in me. Specifically, when I think about adversity, I hear voices like my fifth grade teacher who told my parents that I was hyperactive and I would never graduate high school. Um, or my sister is a motivator for me. She was always pretty hard on me as a kid. And like, so I hear her voice. That's a motivation. Anyone that ever has been in my life that has been someone that has challenged my ability to succeed, um, I keep that and I use it for fuel. And in sales, it it comes super easy because so many people think of salespeople as like the schmucky, like good for nothing, like necessity kind of like I've run into a lot of people, like, and unfortunately, a lot of times it's it's been engineers that kind of look down their nose at salespeople. And so I take that as so much fuel. That's what's driven me to become a technical expert in so many different areas. And I think it it's the fuel that drives success, that you use other people's negative energy and like the thought that like you're less than them or that you can't achieve that has been a huge tool in keeping me motivated um and keeping me successful. Um, I think two other things though, so that's kind of on the negative side. Like, I know that that's that's kind of like a little bit darker way of saying, like, hey, that's a driver. Two other prongs though, there are not uh on the darker side. One is inspiration. I find that like many leaders try to motivate their people, and motivation, like it'll get you out there, it'll get you running the marathon, but unless you're inspired, you're not finishing the 25 miles. And so I've been fortunate that I've been surrounded by inspirational leaders, and I've tried to also put that into my leadership mentorship that like you get a whole lot more from people when you're when you're inspiring them than you are motivating them. So I think that's another huge piece. And then another key tool, I spent 16 years in hospitality, and I think that people that have come from the hospitality industry are uniquely positioned, especially in a sales role, to really succeed because we have this HQ factor, our hospitality quotient. So, you know, you've heard IQ, EQ, um, I I like HQ, hospitality quotient, like the ability to read, empathize, sympathize, and delight other people, right? That's what it's about. Whether it's a sales transaction or it's any transaction throughout the day in any relationship, if you're always thinking about how am I delighting the other party, you're gonna win every time. And that comes from years and years and years in hospitality, it becomes ingrained in you. And so I think those three things the you know, the the drive from listening to the naysayers and letting that be fuel, the portion of remembering the inspiration aspect of success, and lastly, making sure that you know you're exercising as much as you can on the hospitality side to grow that part of your yourself because that really, really sets you apart. So I hope that gives you a good answer. I know it was kind of long-winded, but I think those are are really some of the key tools and pieces to it.
SPEAKER_02:No, that was great. Uh, I do find it interesting some of the points you made about events or interactions with people earlier in your life that still continue to shape who you are and and who you want to be in the space you occupy in this world. I liken it to uh a scenario where one of my first jobs ever, I I've been working since I was 12 years old. I used to deliver newspapers on the back of my bicycle in my neighborhood. But one of my favorite jobs ever, and if I could support a family, I always say this, if I could support my family on this job, I would go back in a heartbeat. Uh, I worked at Six Flags Great Adventure for five years. I worked in the games department and I loved every minute of it. But some of the lessons that I learned through that role from 16 to 21 years of age still resonate with me and I still use them. Um one was uh my supervisor, I don't remember what I had done, but I had made a mistake on the job, and my supervisor, Felicia, came to me and she said, Matt, you can make every mistake in the book, but only make it once. And I I I understood, and the minute she said it, she's basically saying, Show me that you can learn from your mistakes and not make the same mistakes twice. And it's a mantra that I've used with my kids, I've used it with people on my team at work, uh, you know, employees, interns, you name it. It's it's a mantra that I've kind of that's the word I'm looking for, uh perpetuated, I guess, uh would be a good word to use. Um and the other one, and I'm sure there's a million acronyms for it, but specifically the training that I went through, they called it LEED training, L-E-A-D. So listen, empathize, apologize, and direct. And this goes more towards your hospitality example where, you know, if a customer in the park was having an issue, and and even if you're not necessarily responsible for that area, you would listen to their issue, you would empathize with their plight, you would apologize for the poor experience, and then you would direct them on what their next steps would be. And like I said, I'm sure there's a million different acronyms and different ways of approaching that, but um I still remember that training from 16, 17 years old. Uh, and I still use that in in my professional life, even in my personal life now. Uh, so it's interesting, you know, the the parallels. I, you know, I see that as well. Um, some of the formative experiences I had growing up.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I also think that another piece that doesn't always land great today because of how kind of fractured uh society is, but I also think that in my life, speaking about myself, I think that having a strong spirituality and faith have been also another key piece of it. And I think in maturing in that area of my life, it has forced me to surrender and realize that control is an illusion. You have influence over things and you certainly can impact you know how the journey goes. But ultimately, if you are gripping so hard and trying to control everything, if you can't release and let go of that control, that's incredibly freeing. And it's been a huge development personally and professionally. And also like continuing to surrender, it's humbling and it reminds us that in addition to being an inspirational leader, we should be humble and we should be a servant style leader. And like when you operate like that, people really um can connect to that, right? Like nobody likes someone that's boastful and proud. So every day I have to remind myself if I have to surrender um control, and that surrender reminds me to be humble, and that my my true calling in life is to serve other people. And you know, if you talk to any of the folks that I have had the incredible opportunity to interface with, I think the one common point that they would tell you is that that I've served them well. And that is at the end of the day, like that's what matters to me, is that the people's lives that I get to touch, that they would say that. And I and I'm confident that you know that would be the resounding theme if you pulled a group of folks um personally and professionally. Um and that's probably the thing I'm most proud of. Like I I have a lot of different accomplishments, a lot of different frames on the wall and and and trophies and all that stuff's great, but at the end of the day, that ends up in a box in a basement or eventually in a dumpster. But people remembering that you you serve them well, um, that that's I think for me the biggest piece of legacy.
SPEAKER_00:I think the with uh maturity comes that humbling opportunity. I will say that for you now that I have two young kids and I'm in kind of like the next season of my life, if you will. When I first started in sales, I I had you know nothing. I lived in a one-bedroom apartment by myself and I just grinded all day. You know, and then you go through the seasons of your life and you realize that and and Matt can attribute to this that I am a type A. So for me, I do attempt to be in control as much as I can. But uh the I chuckled when you said like you're not in control, Tom, because you're really not. You know, you can drive the bus, but you're not in full control of where you're going. And I think taking a deep breath every once in a while and reminding yourself of that is important. And I also love that you said to be a servant, because I think you know, you can speak of that from like a spiritual concept, which which I'm in in line with, but I do agree with you, you know, in this you know, current climate of the world, not everyone agrees with that. But if even if you take a spirituality out of it, just be a good person. I think ultimately if you can put your head on your pillow at the end of the night and know that you were good to the people around you personally, professionally, you know, hold the door for somebody. Say good morning. Uh in in the city of Philadelphia, they would say, like you hold the door a walla and you say, Go for birds. Like that's just like a just being a good person, you know? And um, I think sometimes we lose sight of that in all of our hustle, right? Because we're just trying to get to the next part of our day. We're just trying to close the deal, we're just trying to uh, you know, in an engineering mindset, get the line up and running, and we forget about the human interaction and the day-to-day. And ultimately, when you put your head on your pillow at the end of the night, can you be happy with the way that you interacted with the humans in your life? I ultimately that's the biggest I agree with you on that something. That's that's ultimately what you're gonna take, uh take with you, not the stuff that you put in a box.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, don't ever let efficiency rob you of caring for other people, right? Because it's very easy. You and I are very much the same. Like I can, if I don't, if I'm not mindful of it, I can put my head down and just grind and grind and focus on like be and I can be extremely efficient. The challenge there is you have to come up for error and realize that that efficiency can rob you of important happiness, yeah. Important, yeah, important joy, more joy than happiness, and like the important parts of like building community and relationship. And um, so anyways, yeah, it's a balancing act. And I think that like packaging and specifically the natural food segment, there's so much collaboration, there's so much relationship. I gotta tell you that like in the natural food space, all my brand owners that I make packaging for for bison bag, that they've become my friends, like really good friends. Like to the point that we'll go to trade shows, we'll travel together, we eat together, we stay in and Airbnb's together. And it's just it's a really cool. I I never thought I'd be in a profession where I had my customers and my partners as tight and close as I would consider my friends and family. And it makes it so much more rewarding. And I feel like the natural food space is just very different than any other um sector of the industry that I've interfaced with. Um, there's a lot of founders, there's a lot of love, there's a lot of collaboration. And so when it was time to like figure out how to extend into entrepreneurship and like get on that journey, because for a long time, I once heard uh a presentation, and uh the presentation was talking about the Grand Canyon, and it was talking about two different types of people. One type of person goes to the Grand Canyon and they go to the edge of it and they look over and they say, Wow, that is so beautiful. And they go home and they'll tell their friends, like, I experienced the Grand Canyon. And then you have another person that will go and they will venture into the canyon and they'll hike it and they'll experience it in that way. And so the point of that talk was like, don't be a rim hugger because you're not truly experiencing it unless you're hiking into the canyon. And so I found myself up on that rim looking over and being like, I don't know, I don't know if I can hike into that canyon. Like it seems really difficult, and there's a lot of risk, and I don't know if I can do this. And I kept having people behind me that were like nudging me um to like jump, jump, get in, go, do it. And and one day I woke up and I just decided, like, hey, I'm in my mid-40s. This is something that I've always wanted to pursue. It's now or never. And I jumped in and I and I and I got in and I started the hike. And I gotta say, it's been one of the most rewarding, um, and and specifically because the product falls into the natural product space. Um, it has been difficult. I tell people very often that like it's not about like in our sales careers, Kristen. You could uh agree with this, like it's about peaks. Like, like Friday, I booked half a million dollars in purchase orders, right? Like peak celebration. I go up from my home office, I'm high-fiving my wife and kids, right? Calling my boss, celebrating. Like, that's been my sales career. That's been like just peak after peak after peak. I've been blessed that that I've been successful in the entrepreneur's journey. The peaks come very few and far between. And so, what I figured out is that the measure of success can no longer be peaks. You have to measure how you navigate the valleys as your measure of success. And when you look at it that way, every day you wake up as an entrepreneur, you have an obstacle. You have something out in front of you that's incredibly difficult to deal with. And finding that pivot, finding that solution, that alternative, that partner, and working through those obstacles, that's the success of an entrepreneur. And then eventually you put enough of those together and it leads to a peak, right? And then that's easy enough. Then then the champagne uh corks pop and and we celebrate, and that's exciting. But if people thinking about entrepreneurship could take anything from this, it's realizing that don't don't let yourself get beat up. Flip the script and look at it from that perspective that every day you're gonna be faced with a challenge, and every day your measure of success should be how you've overcome that challenge. So kind of two very different mindsets for two very different industries, and I feel fortunate to have the experience of both.
SPEAKER_02:I kind of share uh you know a similar sentiment because now granted, I'm not coming from the sales side like you are, I'm I'm coming from the the engineer side. I I can say, little side note here, I can think back through my career and I could name the salespeople that I've dealt with that I felt like I needed to take a shower after I hung up the phone with them because they just felt like a greasy used car salesperson. And they're the ones that that give salespeople a bad name. By and large, most of the people I've dealt with in sales have been fine. I can also count on on one hand, maybe a second, uh, the sales reps that I don't care what they're selling, I would buy from them because they're just genuinely good people. And those are the ones that really kind of stand out. So yeah, I can I can understand and I've experienced that dynamic, but from the end user side versus the the the supplier side.
SPEAKER_01:Some of us out there that are good, some of us that are really good, and I think we've all experienced in any industry those not so good salespeople. Funny enough, I was talking to my my sister and brother-in-law this week. They brought their car to um a garage. I won't I won't mention the the the the brand of the garage, and the customer service rep, they were talking through like needing to get something done, and the customer service rep looked at my brother-in-law and said, Well, I'm really sorry, but we don't do what's convenient for customers. And I thought, like, as a salesperson, like, wow, sales and customer service, because you know, sales and customer service go hand in hand. It's like, wow, that person doesn't get it. Um, and so unfortunately, there are a lot of different people out there that represent, you know, my my my profession, you know, sales, business development. And unfortunately, um, we we tend to always remember the worst of life's experiences. Um, that's another thing I try to be mindful of is to not let those bad experiences be the ones that dictate how I think about a situation, a person, a place, but rather to really let the the bright spots shine. And again, that takes some some mindfulness because I think as humans we we tend to lean into, hey, let me tell you about my brother-in-law's story with this terrible customer service rep. And that's the that's the really damning part for a salesperson is that you can very quickly put yourself in a situation that you can't get out of. So, another one that I give people, another kind of cliche. I love I love my my cliche and my analogies, but another one that I often give. People is um it's very easy on our best day to pat ourselves on the back and celebrate how great of a job we've done. But the true measure of character is how we respond in the face of adversity. So the day that the line didn't run so great and products getting out late or a quality error occurred, imagine that in manufacturing a quality error occurs. And it it's it's how you then square your shoulders and look at your partner, your customer, and figure out what I can do to make the best of this situation and work through and fix it. And at the at the end of the day, that to me is like that's knowing that you're successful. Um, because those situations come up a lot. And I've seen a lot of people tuck tail and run, um, people that aren't comfortable falling on the sword, they don't want to take the responsibility, they don't want to take their medicine, whatever you want to call it. But the best of us, that's what makes us the best, is that in those hard times, we're able to work through and fix. And so I guess that is a lean into like that whole valley analogy that I gave you on the entrepreneur side, because I had had some experience through you know, manufacturing. Like it, you do have, you know, it doesn't matter where I've worked, you you always have manufacturing has tons of variables, so you always have something on any given day that you're trying to work through and fix. And so that kind of was the training for the entrepreneurship. It just so turns out that like at least there's a lot of peaks on the manufacturing side to celebrate. On the entrepreneur side, it feels like because I'm earlier on, it feels like they're a little bit farther between, and it feels like there's a lot more obstacles to work through because now you're working through you know, raising funds and picking a copacker and selecting ingredients and trying to get the ear of these retailers and turning on sales channels and working through trademarking, and there's just so many things, and every single one of them is a challenge and a trial. So that's that's where it's kind of different than like the manufacturing side where you are dealing with those things, but they're definitely farther and fewer between, and they're a lot easier to deal with because it's someone else's business. There's a team of people behind you to support you, whereas when you're an entrepreneur, the buck stops with you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_00:I often say at Wexler, the machine will break. What happens when that happens? You know, because it'll always break the busiest week of the year when your maintenance guy's on vacation. You know, I mean I mean that's just life in manufacturing. But to your point, you can, you know, you can stick your head in the sand, or you can work with your customer to help make a resolution. And I think that's what people remember because things always go wrong.
SPEAKER_01:I agree. And I also think that like by talking about it, like we live on this weird, like I've I found this also with parenting. Like, you know, I have two kids, uh Riley and Brianna, ages 12 and 14, soon to be 13 and 15. Uh, great kids, but as they were growing up, like no one gave me a manual on how to raise them. I don't know, Kristen, if you have the manual, maybe you'd share it with me. You guys didn't get a copy. Not even that ever. Oh, sorry. And and so, yeah, so trying to figure out like how to work through situations and feeling like you're on an island because God forbid you tell other parents that like your house and your kids are not perfect, like that's the scariest thing ever. And I went to this um this parenting class, and all of a sudden, like people started talking about all the same nonsense that I was dealing with, and I was like, oh my gosh, this isn't just happening to me. I feel the same way about manufacturing. I feel like we're all corraled onto this weird island that like we can't admit that in manufacturing there's a million variables, many of which are out of our control. And but we're not to talk about it and we're to pretend that like everything always goes great because if you talk about it, you're gonna spook customers and they're gonna go away and you might not grow your business. And the customers don't really want to hear about the problems, the variables, the potential risks, right? They kind of want to bury their head in the sand and think like, okay, I'm gonna put it in this purchase order, and it everything's gonna go perfect. And yeah, 95% of the time that is the case, but it's the five percent that we don't talk about, and I feel like it's such an important thing that we all recognize so that more and more people understand that we're all definitely trying our best. And if you look upstream, it's no different once you get into the co-packer or if the brand owner runs their own manufacturing process. If you really have the bravery to dig in and say, like, hey, yeah, I realize we've had this issue and like we worked through it. I'd I'm I'd like to explore a little bit more about your process. Like, do you guys ever have this stuff happen? And lo and behold, they do, right? And like when you start talking about it, all of a sudden it takes like the pressure off of like, hey, you have to be perfect 100% of the time, and it opens up like, hey, this happens to all of us, and it's not about being perfect, it it goes back to what I said before about when things don't go perfectly, are we strong enough to face the problem, fix the problem, and move past it? And then, and then in reflection, rather than thinking like, oh, that's a mar on the relationship, realizing that wow, that was resistance, and that resistance made us stronger and grew us, going back to that that weightlifting analogy. So again, it's it's it's making sure that we're talking about this stuff and then framing it and then reflecting and not allowing it to be the opposite talk track.
SPEAKER_00:I'm often reminding my customer my salespeople to make sure that they're having those conversations with the customer after something goes wrong. Because in the moment it's urgent, right? The ambulance is at the front door and it's like we got to do this now. But when you can look back on it and say, like, okay, well, what really went wrong? You know, did someone order incorrectly? Did someone not do a PM on a machine? Did the setup go wrong? You know, what things can we help to deal with now that we've learned that something can go wrong to make it not happen again? And I think most people love that conversation because you can kind of laugh about it in that moment and be like, wow, that was painful, but you can commiserate on how to make it better or how it how it was frustrating and then how to make it better from there. And I think like we're all just people. I always tell my salespeople, like, we put our pants on every day, just like they do. You know, so when you're calling somebody and you're talking to somebody on the phone, the goal is to just solve a problem or help solve a problem. Ultimately, if you can do that, you know, you're just talking to another human. That's it.
SPEAKER_02:Well, those are the those are the sales reps that that that we remember, right? Those are the ones that you know I can I can say decidedly that they were shoulder to shoulder with me walking through whatever issue may have arisen. Um, those are the people I know I can I can rely on when the times get tough, right? How do you respond to the adversity, like Tom mentioned? So uh I do uh want to be mindful of time. We're gonna run out of uh uh out of time soon. So I did want to kind of circle back a little bit. And Tom, I know you already started giving us a little bit of background, but uh I did want to ask about the genesis of Mocha Energy and then more specifically kind of where you're at right now and uh you know what the next couple of years look like for for your brand.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thank you. So as I said, you know, I I always had the itch for entrepreneurship. I've been a coffee fanatic my whole life, addicted to black coffee. It's my Nona's fault because when I was like, I don't know, nine, ten years old, um they they came over from Sicily. And so um very traditional Sunday dinners. My grandpa um continued farming when he came to this country country and grew all their own veggies, and we had a rabbit shed on the farm, and often on Sundays the meat and the sauce was rabbit and grew his own grapes, made his own garage wine. I started drinking that garage wine uh in a very European manner uh at like eight or nine years old. And then after dinner, my grandma would always take a mocha express pot and she would brew this dark, tarry liquid that she called coffee. And um, and you know, they drank it out of the espresso cups, and as a kid, we would load heaps of sugar into it because it was so dark and bitter, but I think that was like my my beginning love for coffee, like the taste and the energy that that the caffeine gives. And so, you know, over the years I grew an appreciation for black coffee, no cream, no sugar. And I met my co-founder Omar, and he had this really great, like conventional coffee candy that he had created. He tried to launch it into the market, but for a number of reasons, his background and expertise was not supply chain. And so unfortunately, it it failed. And I tracked him down and said, like, hey, I really I need more of this stuff, it was delicious. What happened? We kind of talked about it, and and I said, Well, look, what if I told you that I could reformulate this? Because I think there's some things inherently in the formula that need to change, and I can put together a full supply chain leaning into my networking experience, and we can take this and it'll be successful. Like I have a high level of confidence. And he said, sure, if you can do that, I'll we'll uh we'll partner. And so that's what I did. I started behind the scenes, just really putting together the entire supply chain. I took a course at Cornell and food product development through Food Spark, um, just to brush up uh and add another certificate to the wall. And I used Mocha Energy as the thesis, and out of that came a company. And um Omar and our Omar and I realized that like we needed another person to help support us. So we brought in Jessica Kwong, uh, who is the founder of Jack and Friends Jerky. Uh, it's a jackfruit jerky brand, successfully going. And um, she's a food scientist, graduated from Cornell University. So she brought the food science even deeper than I do and and supplemented upstream. Like I'm really solid, like on the manufacturing side, um, and pretty good on the sales channel and and upstream. But Jessica really had been living in it with Jack, Jack, and friends. So uh the three of us, you know, formed this super team. And I tell people I think we're uniquely investable. Uh, so for all the investors out there that are listening, we're uniquely investable because we have such a high level of experience that unlike a lot of founders in startups, we're much less likely to stub our toe or make the mistake because we've been doing it for a long time. We have the network and support around us. And so not only is the product innovative and different, incremental to the category, outstanding flavor, functional, has these great health claims, but you have a team around it that is rock solid. And so I know it's my idea, my belief. So, of course, I'm gonna tell you like it's guaranteed success. Um, there's no guaranteed success in entrepreneurship or in life, but I I do believe that we have an unfair advantage that others don't. Um, so yeah, so we've progressed along, uh, following all the steps. We've been blessed. My my brother is a graphic designer and and does it professionally. So my website, my packaging, my branding, brand identity, he's done all the design work for us. Um, and it's cost us nothing. Cornell University Law Department has given us two years of free legal services um on a special program that I applied for. So we've been very fortunate. Those are the relationships that I'm talking about that we can lean into because we have the experience. And so, yeah, we're here we are. We're uh on the cusp of launch. We've run a factory trial. Our co-packer is getting ready to run a production run to support uh late Q4 e-commerce launch. Um, we have a major national retailer um that's that's uh given us a letter of interest to put the product in their grocery store in uh Q2 of 2026. I have like 15 small independent retailers that are you know clamoring to get their hands on it as soon as it's available. Um, so yeah, we're we're working right now to raise um 600k in a pre-seed round. We've had a lead investor come in. We're looking for more folks to come in and support so that we can you know scale, scale and and get this thing off the ground and and and get that trajectory going in the right direction. Um, but yeah, it's been an amazing ride and we're we're pretty excited and pretty confident about what's to come ahead. I think looking out a little bit longer, you know, we're looking at launching fights out into the market, we're looking at launching wafers and chips for inclusions and robing on the B2B side. We have a really good uh market channel strategy, and inevitably I would love to position it for exit, you know, seven to ten years out. I'd love to take it, build it, grow it, introduce the world to it, and then find a large corporation that you know can really take it to the next level. And and my big dream is then if that were to happen, to take that windfall and and become a supporter of other dreamers. So, like right now, my hardest thing is getting access to capital. And I want to be that guy that I take all the mentoring that I do right now for brands and all the practical solution stuff on helping them figure out their supply chain. But I also want to layer on top of it, hey, I had a successful exit and I can help you, and I can help fund you and like help other dreamers realize their dreams.
SPEAKER_02:That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:Makes my heart warm and fuzzy.
SPEAKER_02:Makes me want to go out and and and buy a box of these things.
SPEAKER_00:I know. I agree.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I hope so. I hope when people try it, they love it as much as I do. Um, like I said, we've we've spent a lot of time on the the quality, the texture, the sensory, the user experience. That's where a lot of caffeinated snack has gone wrong. So people will say, like, well, there's other stuff out there in the market. Like, why are you different? We're different, not only because it's a portable cup of coffee and it's functional and clean label, but at the heart of it, the user experience is it's a premium, it's the best in in the market. Like you put it in your mouth and you're wowed by it. You're not like, well, okay, I guess it's functional and has caffeine, so I'll I'll eat it. You want to go back for more, and then you realize, like, oh, I don't have to feel bad about this. It feels and tastes like a decadent treat, but it's it's not crashing my wellness goals, and so all that stuff is important to me. It's just it's it's how to communicate all of it because there's so much wrapped up, no pun intended, in the bar. It's hard for me to like get it all across to people without droning on and on and on about all these different things. So to be concise, I've cut it down to hey, it's a portable cup of coffee. You can't put your your cup of coffee or your latte in your backpack or purse. But for that second or third cup occasion, for that midday pick-me-up that slump, you can throw Mocha in your bag and you can enjoy a cup of coffee anywhere in the world.
SPEAKER_02:That's a great hook. I like it. So uh we we do need to wrap up, but uh for final thoughts, wanted to give you each an opportunity if there's anything else you wanted to uh express or share.
SPEAKER_01:I would just say that uh if there's any investors listening to the podcast, please reach out to me. We need your we need your help. And then for anybody listening right now on the website, you can go buy our whole coffee beans. They're the same beans that we use to make the bar. Rather than running a Kickstarter, uh, I started an e-commerce program myself with uh whole coffee beans. They're a little bit expensive, 20 bucks a bag, but you're not buying coffee beans, you're buying uh a seat on the bus for this entrepreneurial journey. Um, you'll get added to our newsletter list, and um, I would certainly appreciate every every dollar spent on a bag of coffee is going directly to help fuel our dream. Um, and then yeah, you can go to www.mochaenergy.com, m-o-k-a-energy.com. And uh in December you'll be able to buy all three SKUs of the bars. But right now you can certainly go buy a bag of coffee and uh and help support the journey.
SPEAKER_02:Great. Well that uh that website just so everyone's aware, that website will be available also uh obviously in the audio recording, but it will also be available in the transcript posted on Bud Sprout, whatever podcasting website you use, uh and uh the YouTube channel for this podcast, uh packaging, etc. podcast, uh you'll be able to get that website out of the transcript as well. Sorry, Kristen, I know you had something to say there as well.
SPEAKER_00:That's okay. I was just gonna say thanks for sharing the story, Tom, because um when I thought about you for this podcast, the thing that I love the most was that you decided. You there's a lot of us that are, you know, we think about things and we want to do it. Um, but it takes a specific type of person to wake up one day and say, I'm gonna do this. And I think, like you said, for the dreamers out there, you can do it. And I think that resonates that's gonna resonate with a lot of people. So thanks for sharing that story about that transition. And I think I'm I'm super excited for you. I can't wait to see where this goes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, just remember, don't be a rim hugger, hike that canyon. That's what life's about.
SPEAKER_02:Sounds good. Uh, I do have two final things I wanted to share before we wrap up. One, uh, I do have to uh offer an opinion disclaimer. Earlier in this episode, someone did share the words go birds. Uh, so that is a statement that clarifies that the opinions expressed are solely those of the individual and not necessarily those of the packaging, etc. podcast.
SPEAKER_01:She meant go build. She meant go build.
SPEAKER_02:Uh actually I but as as the as the host, I do get to say go broncos, we did beat the birds. So I'm I'm very happy about that. But uh the last thing is uh during one of, or I should say after one of my episodes uh from season one, which we are now into season two, uh a close friend had recommended that I put a hook into each episode that would be some type of packaging trivia. So uh I did find an interesting little tidbit that I wanted to share with both of you and with our listeners. Uh, and that is uh Braille was invented in 1824, but its first inclusion in packaging wasn't until 2005, when the European Union passed a mandate including Braille labeling on bottles. I thought that was really kind of interesting.
SPEAKER_01:That is. Wow.
SPEAKER_02:So with that, I want to thank you both so much for your time. Tom, it's been great talking and catching up. Kristen, I really appreciate you coming in and co-hosting this episode and uh looking forward to more opportunities for us to work together. Uh this has been a great time, great learning experience, and Tom wishing you the best of luck with Mocha. Uh, really hope it takes off like you are uh projecting. Best of luck.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much. Thank you. Good luck.
SPEAKER_02:All right. Thank you guys so much. Until next time.