From Compliance To Strategy: How Pharma Packaging Gets Sustainable Without Losing Its Purpose

Transcript

Speaker 0:40

Greetings all. My guest today is, and I'm quoting her LinkedIn bio here, a passionate advocate for sustainability for pharma and beyond. She's also the vice president of sustainability in the pharma division of Constantia Flexibles, Agnischka von Batavia. Agnischka, welcome.

Speaker 2 0:59

Thank you, Matthew. It's really a pleasure and uh an honor to be here.

Speaker 1:03

Well, I'm glad we were able to finally connect on this. So I I do have to say for clarity's sake, you are a first for me. Uh you are the first member of the general public to reach out to me as a result of listening to the podcast and request a podcast episode to be a guest. And so excited for me that the outreach is there. Obviously, you're you're also based in Europe, so so the fact that I'm uh on multiple continents is exciting for me. So just wanted to say thank you and been really looking forward to this.

Speaker 2 1:35

No, for uh my pleasure, Matthew, and I'm really th thankful for having this opportunity to share what's happening in Europe and how this might impact uh the American companies as well.

Speaker 1:47

Well, let's jump right into it then. So, as you would imagine, our topic for today, sustainability, an obvious hot button in packaging and across most, if not all, industries. So, Agnishka, considering your breadth of experience, which specific areas within sustainability would you like to discuss today?

Speaker 2 2:06

Well, I think it's important to uh think about the transition that we are currently experiencing from sustainability, especially in packaging, being just a compliance issue to something that's becoming a little bit more of a, I would say, business imperative. With uh packaging, packaging regulations, EPR uh regulations, a subject that you also devoted a whole episode to, and other upcoming regulations, I think we uh must realize how important sustainability will become, not just for the sake of the claim, but for the sake of business strategy. And I think, in a way, reflected in the fact that what we observe in pharma is the split between the traditional pharma companies and the OTC providers. And we see that this is much um dictated by the end consumer behavior. So there are different needs, there are different market uh requirements, and we see that especially in the pharma market at the moment, the companies are really responding to. And I think it's important to talk about that.

Do Regulation And Sustainability Align

Speaker 3:16

Okay, great. One of the questions I had about that is, and I'm sure we'll get into this in more detail as we go along. The is there a competition? Are they are sustainability and regulatory compliance uh diametrically opposed? You know, is it are you solving one problem in one area and creating another somewhere else? Or do you find that we are finding alignment uh and and ways to move forward to stay within the confines of regulatory compliance but still delivering sustainable initiatives?

Speaker 2 3:52

Well, I think uh that compliance, uh regulatory compliance in pharmaceutical packaging and sustainability actually go hand in hand, especially when we talk about the total blister, uh total barrier solutions like uh aluminum blisters, where regulatory compliance does not uh prevent us from using secondary materials that then result in lower carbon footprint, you see that this is a typical situation where those um compliance issues and sustainability go hand in hand. And what we also need to understand is that when we look at the environmental impact of packaging and packaging process, we tend to um quantify it, we tend to assess it through scientific methodologies like lifecycle assessment, or as you said in the in the US, lifecycle analysis. And um, what we do there, we basically we look at all the materials, energy, costs, uh, emissions, and waste generated throughout the life cycle of packaging. And we tend to eliminate uh uh risks and we tend to make sure that the resources are used efficiently. And I think compliance is about the same, about eliminating risk and about efficient and safe use of resources. So to me, those two go hand in hand.

Function First: The Limits Of Lightweighting

Speaker 5:18

Okay. I thought there may be some issues where you run into barriers, like you know, I think of something like uh lightweighting a product, right? You you still need to meet your barrier properties to effectively protect your product, but you want to lightweight on your packaging materials. You want to reduce that overall footprint, but you eventually run into a scenario where you can't go any lighter because you then you start sacrificing those barrier or those the physical performance characteristics of the of the overall package. So I wasn't sure if there was any competition between the two, if you will.

Speaker 2 5:54

Well, I think I'm really glad you mentioned that, Matthew, because I think we are uh drilling down to the core of what packaging is, and that's the packaging function. And I always say that packaging that does not full function is not sustainable. Because when we talk about packaging and sustainability, we obviously need to understand that packaging exists because it has a function, because there is a reason for packaging to be there. And we must always remember this reason, and that's protection and making sure that in our case the medicine gets safely to patients and in in the state that provides the right treatment to the patient. So if this function is not fulfilled, then there is no sustainability purpose in making it lightweight. Then to me, that's contradictory. Environmental sustainability, of course, but not uh on the expense of the function. And that's where these we don't get contradiction.

Speaker 6:51

It's more of a a balancing act, I guess, is probably a good way of looking at it.

Speaker 2 6:56

Exactly.

Speaker 6:56

Okay.

Speaker 2 6:57

Oh, absolutely, yes.

Speaker 6:59

So, what would you say are some recent events that are kind of helping shape today and tomorrow's sustainability initiatives?

Speaker 2 7:08

Well, I think the uh the rise of the um regulations that I've mentioned earlier, the packaging, packaging waste regulation and the harmonization of rules around uh packaging waste and packaging design, is really driving the innovation in packaging forward. And it's also contributing to what we call more sustainable packaging practice. Right now, I would say the recyclability in in many different areas is a question of almost an opinion. Okay, we have different uh recyclability certificates that could be uh HE that could be hired. But in a way, um what's recyclable in one country is not necessarily considered recyclable in other countries. I'm talking here about European uh yeah uh spectrum. But the same, I think the same applies to the US and this harmonization and making sure that there is this one and unanimous idea about what recyclability actually is. And this is happening both in the US and in Europe, I think it's very important because we take the uh subjectivity out of the equation and it's become it's become the regal issue, it's become a scientifically justified uh fact rather than an opinion. This is that is really um shaping the future of packaging. And as I also mentioned uh earlier, we see the very uh specific development in the pharma uh market, the fact that the over-the-counter medicine and the uh actu and the traditional pharma that they are uh that there is split happening. We see different large pharmaceutical companies uh having their OTC activities uh put under the separate umbrella, and that has a reason. And the reason is that patient buying a medicine over-the-counter behaves more like a consumer, which means that the way a packaging is treated, the way the packaging is designed for the over-the-counter medicine, also follows more the fast-moving consumer goods type of uh design, rather than when we look at the uh typical traditional pharmaceutical packaging prescription medicine, then obviously um patient has no um say in what type of medicine they will receive. So it's just basically pure function without any other uh considerations.

OTC Versus Rx: Different Packaging Realities

Speaker 9:37

That makes perfect sense. I can't imagine anyone making a decision based on which prescription they'd want to go with based off of the color scheme in the graphics on the front of the folding carton. Uh at that point, when you're talking about prescription medication, it's all about function and it's all about does the product treat the indication it claims and what I need it to treat. So no, it's it's an interesting distinction.

Speaker 2 10:03

I I fully agree. And I think we all fall for the same trap when we stand in the front of the of the medicine counter and the and our eye go automatically to the custom that appeals to us more.

Collection And Sorting Drive Recycling

Speaker 10:16

Yeah. So kind of circling back a little bit when you talk about different sustainability regulations in different countries and different recycling capabilities, do you find that certain countries and certain areas of the world have more sophisticated recycling capabilities? And so therefore, those areas can get more aggressive on their sustainability initiatives?

Speaker 2 10:41

Yes, I think that there is a different, there is a clear difference in the way different countries um handle packaging of waste. But it is not so much, in my opinion, about the actual recycling capability. So it's not about the recycling infrastructure, but it's more about the collection and sorting. So the real bottleneck of and real uh aspect of recycling system is how the packaging is collected and how it is then sorted and how we make sure that this that the sorted fractions are getting to the right places. I mean, in theory, everything is recyclable, right? I mean, uh technically speaking, almost every material can be uh turned into something new. But it's but it is this collection and sorting infrastructure that really makes a difference. So when we talk about countries where this where this infrastructure is more developed, in Europe, for instance, we talk about Germany, Netherlands, uh, Scandinavian countries. For pharmaceutical packaging, it's Spain that has a specific separate collection system for pharmaceutical packaging. Then we see that in those countries, um the rules will typically be a little bit tighter, and that there is a lot more to consider in those countries.

The Next Decade: Carbon And Economics

Speaker 11:59

Okay. And I guess going back to my previous question about uh where I made reference to today and tomorrow sustainability initiatives, you know, so on the topic of tomorrow, what what do you see are the the next five to ten years? Where do you see this global sustainability initiative going? What are what are some things we think we're on the cusp of delivering under the sustainability umbrella?

Speaker 2 12:25

Well, it's not just uh uh about setting goals. I mean, we talk we talk about commitment a lot, we talk about setting goals, but it's not just about that, it's about how we make sure that carbon reduction is embedded in everything we do within our business. So it's not just about new products, it's about operational excellence, it's about regulatory compliance, it's about it it's about a holistic approach, it's about uh turning commitments into specific actions that deliver value. And not just value on sustainability, but the value for the business. Because at the end of the day, when we talk about the circular economy, the word economy is there. So in order to make a difference, we also need to make money. And I think that's what's going to shape the future of sustainability. The the fact that it's not just about reducing your impact, it's about reducing your impact in an economically viable way.

Product Spotlight: Recyglac Aluminum Blister

Speaker 13:23

So you're trying to tell me that you go to work every day, not because you love it, but you do it for the paycheck. You actually expect to get paid to do your work.

Speaker 2 13:33

Well, I think that the paycheck is a nice bonus, you know. Actually, I do get uh uh out of bed in every morning thinking, okay, so what's it what it is that I'm going to do today and how I'm going to contribute. Uh I think if if that was not if that was not the case, uh I would not uh I I would not uh demage, but I'm an idealist. So of course having a nice chat pack is nice and motivating, but it's not uh the only motivation, it's not at all.

Speaker 14:00

Of course, of course. No, I've I've had those jobs where the only the only benefit I felt I got out of it was was you know a twice a month or every other week reminder that I was still employed, you know, that paycheck coming in. So obviously I'm not there anymore. So that I guess that tells you all you need to know. I'm I'm kind of the same way. I need to I need to believe in the product that I'm supporting, or I need to believe in the work that I'm doing in addition to, I mean, obviously we all work to to live, right? You need a paycheck to to survive and thrive and and um you know fund your your side projects and your passions and hobbies and whatnot, but but I also do need to have some level of of belief and pride in in the work that I'm doing. So, what are some current projects you're working on at Constantia?

Speaker 2 14:49

Well, we have just launched this really exciting new product, our answer to most sustainable total uh barrier blister packaging. It's an aluminium co-forming blister called Regula Circ Aluminum Blister, and it's one of my favorite things in the world. And why? Because it literally ticks all the boxes. So it's not just uh PVC-free, PFAT-free. It has an actual lower carbon footprint, it is considered to be recyclable. We have just recently conducted a uh real-life sorting test in which this um ready blister modified to actually uh resemble uh used blisters was mixed with domestic waste. And 100% of the blisters that went through the uh size sorting, and that was about 88% of the total uh sample, 100% of the blisters that passed the size test were sorted correctly into the uh rigid aluminium production, meaning it is going to be recycled. And then, on top of all these wonderful sustainability improvements, we also found out that the material actually runs better on the machine because it's flatter, better yield, it reduces the uh uh waste at the manufacturing line, and I've not done it, and it has a better barrier. It has a better barrier because we are reducing the uh cross permeation because our sealing polymer layer gets uh thinner, and the polymer that we've used instead of PVC has a better moisture barrier. I mean, I'm just in love with the product.

Speaker 16:34

Now, is this product out on the market now?

Speaker 2 16:36

Yes, it is, it's a viable uh on the market now. We had a big clash about it during the pharmapac event in Paris. So, yes, it's a viable and uh and ready to go. Actually, the first market launches uh uh have already been announced, and funny enough, one of the first customers is in Mexico.

Speaker 16:56

Oh, okay. So global presence, that's great.

Speaker 2 16:59

Absolutely.

Speaker 17:01

So we or I should say, I touched upon you know hobbies and and passion projects and whatnot, and I understand, and I need to I need to hear this the backstory on this, but I understand that you built a kit car. I tell me about this a little bit.

Speaker 2 17:17

Oh um well it's it's a kit car, it's a it looks like something that's like a sport car, like an old English sport car, but it's in in fact uh the Citroën Digivos, so this real uh uh Ali Duckley in Citroën. Basically, my husband and I were sitting on the couch looking at each other, and we are both love cars. And we are looking at each other and thought, well, is this it? We need a hobby. And at that moment, there was this article in the newspaper about a Dutch company starting to um develop affordable uh sporting cars, and the affordability came from the fact that you could make it yourself, and we looked at each other and decided to to go for it, and the rest is history.

Speaker 18:05

And now, so uh forgive the ignorance, I'm completely new to this concept. So the the kit car is is a functioning car, like you can put fuel in it and get into the car and drive.

Speaker 2 18:16

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, it's full it's full a road legal car. It has the the chassis and the driving train from the Citrain, and the body is a polyester uh kit made sp specially by this by this Dutch company, and we've been touring with it for the last 15 years, so it's uh it's been our little fun holiday car.

Speaker 18:38

That's great. I feel like that's something you should be driving in in you know parades in your in your local town, you know, holiday parades. You make it the uh uh what do they call it, the the uh unofficial mayor, or there's a there's a there's a uh I don't know, some type of special, some type of special dignitary at these parades. It could they could be uh riding down the street, Main Street in your uh kit car.

Speaker 2 19:03

Oh, absolutely. And uh it was really uh endearing that one of our uh neighbor's son, a young boy, was asked what was his biggest wish, and he and he said that he would would like to have a drive in our car.

Speaker 19:17

There's a testament for you.

Speaker 2 19:19

Our car exactly. So our car has become a young boy's dream. I mean, what what else what uh can you ask?

Don’t Look Up And Climate Urgency

Speaker 19:25

I recently adopted uh my own project, if you will. Uh I bought a boat, uh, a small fishing boat. Yeah. And I I never had any interest in in purchasing a boat. It was never, you know, nobody in my family are boaters. Although when I was growing up, one of my neighborhood friends, his father had a small boat and took us out a couple times. But my my wife and my family and I, we've always kind of been into kayaking. So, you know, buying a boat wasn't a huge departure from that. And I I saw that a a boat and trailer were uh being sold used for a hundred dollars. And I thought to myself, who is who who could possibly be selling a boat? There's got to be something wrong with it. And when I looked at the posting, I realized that I recognized the name of who was selling it. So I reached out to them directly and I and just just for the heck of it. I'm like, what's the deal? And they said, look, it it works, it floats, it obviously it needs some work. It's an older boat, it's a 1980s vintage boat, but it works. And we just we don't have a need for it anymore. We have a larger boat, so we just wanted to go somewhere where someone's gonna get some use out of it. But they were someone was scheduled to come take a look at it, or someone was about to come buy it. And so I I guess I just blurted out. I said, well, if you know something, if it doesn't work out, let me know. And then I completely forgot I had this conversation with them. So fast forward about a week later, it's a Saturday morning. I'm sitting at the breakfast table, my wife and I are having breakfast, and she was leaving for the day. I want to say she was going to visit a wedding venue where our son was going to be getting married later that year. And so I had the day free, and we were talking about what what I was gonna be doing for the day. And all of a sudden I get the phone call, and when I see that the person that's calling me is the person that I had called about the boat, I all of a sudden remembered that conversation and panicked because I hadn't spoken to my wife about this. I never even told her about it. So they call me and they say, Yeah, the guy that was supposed to buy the boat passed or he didn't show or whatever it was. So the boat's yours if you want it, but you gotta come get it today. So now I'm in a mad scramble going, Well, I can I committed to this. I guess I gotta see this through. So I told my wife, I said, Yeah, um I'm going to buy a boat today. And she thought I was kidding. Well, I came home, took pictures of it, sent her pictures of the boat, and um surprisingly, she uh I still live in the house. She she did not get as upset as I thought she would. But uh, you know, the boat's been sitting in my front yard for the last year and a half, and I've been working on it here and there, doing some carpeting work and replacing the hardware, and I bought an electric trolling motor. And so my goddaughter saw it, and now she is sorry, this is my segue. You're talking about your your next door neighbor's son. You know, his dream was to go uh for a ride in your car. So every time I feel like I'm gonna give up on working on this boat, I remember her saying that she wanted to go on a ride in the boat. And so now it's that's my driving force. Is I I in order to take her on a ride on this boat, I have to, I have to finish the work. So my goal is this this spring, this summer, when the weather clears up. uh to to finish that up and get the boat out on the water. So more to come. I'll I'll let everybody know how that goes, my maiden voyage in a in a future episode.

Speaker 2 22:49

I want to just want mention one thing because if something is meant to be, it's actually it's meant to be, I believe that. When we were uh buying, basically buy building the kit car means you need a donor car. So you'd need an old car to use for your for your chassis and your on your motoric parts and you need to strip it and then you need to buy the kit the body kit to mount on uh on it. And when we were when we decided to um order the body kit we didn't have money for that. And we were um we just decided okay we don't know how we're going to pay for it but we're going to we believe that this is meant to be we're going to do that. And believe it or not the KitKat had a had a lead time of six months and three months in we won a lottery. It was a it was it was a small local lottery though for the sport from the sport club so the so this was not a huge payout but it was enough for us to buy to buy the body. Talk about being meant to be exactly so where I believe when something is meant to be it will happen.

Speaker 1 23:58

So you're telling me I should play the lottery I'm telling you you you made the right decision buying the vote.

Speaker 24:05

Yeah okay I'll I'll I'll I'll take that that's not quite as good as winning the lottery but I I do appreciate the vote of confidence so as I'm sure my listeners have noticed by now uh I have a recurring theme throughout the episodes I've released and the episodes I've recorded which you know not all of them have been have been released yet. And in my normal daily conversations I I do tend to make a lot of movie references. And in the questionnaire one of the questions I ask potential guests is if there are any books or movies that capture how you feel about your specific field is perceived. I understand you do have an answer for that and I would ask you to share your response and and kind of explain your rationale as to why.

Purpose, Kids, And A Shared Future

Speaker 2 24:52

Well it's a it's a little bit a sad one because the movie I instantly think of when somebody asks me this question is the movie with Leonardo DiCrocks don't don't look up when we on earth are alerted of the fact that the big meteorite is approaching and this when they hit the earth it's going to be the end of the battle and we simply choose to ignore it because it's far away because it's far from our bed show because it's abstract because we don't understand how this um imaginary for many people threat is going to uh impact our life and I get a feeling that when it comes to environmental distraction not only climate change but also loss of biodiversity which is a real issue we tend to think the same it's abstract it's better my best show I don't see how it impacts me today I don't understand how can I contribute to um to mitigate it and then we have those desperate scientists doing all in their power to make everybody aware that it's not too late. There are there are opportunities there are we have options we can do something and they are not hurt. And I have sometimes I have a feeling that that that's a little bit the reality I mean I try not to think about it too much because it gets really depressing but yeah I think that's a little bit um the situation that that that I'm experiencing.

Speaker 26:28

That is a very poignant example and uh I thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. I have seen the movie so I do I do get the reference that you're making and it is unfortunately a common trope I think in uh movies and in social media and in pop culture. And so I think the the example definitely holds so uh but I hope that this is something that we can maybe through this podcast and and through constant initiatives around the globe we we create more awareness and hopefully put better programs in place. So I'm a glass half full kind of guy so I will keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.

Speaker 2 27:11

Me too and well thank you Matthew and uh I'm also uh tend to be more optimistic and I believe that the what the moment we realize it's not about saving the planet. It's about making sure that our children and their children have a healthy and uh beautiful place to live on that would be the first uh uh step towards understanding that action is needed and everybody has a role to play.

Origins, Careers, And What-If Paths

Speaker 27:41

Well that's a great sentiment to make because that makes it a much more common goal because you know we all we all share that same feeling right we all you know for everyone that does have children and grandchildren you wanna you want to leave this place for them and you want them to be able to leave it for for their the next generations after them so again I I appreciate you sharing that. So I can't imagine when you were a little girl growing up you said I want to be the vice president of sustainability in pharmaceutical packaging manufacturing. So rewind a few years to when you were young what what did you want to be when you grew up what were you what were your aspirations?

Speaker 2 28:29

Oh wow um that really takes me back and um well uh story about uh about my origin story as I like to call it is that um when I was 12 years old I was a member of the environmental protection league in Poland where I grew up and I recently I found uh my uh ID card so my um membership card from that period which was uh which was really nice to see and my idea of contributing to the nature protection was to become a marine biologist okay so the little me was mesmerized by the underwater world and wanted to uh protect the corals and protect the whales at the time I think I'm not sure if I understood what corals were but I wanted to protect the whales and although I haven't become a marine biologist this protecting nature and the wildlife uh sentiment is has been always at the back of my mind and I think it's also a little bit uh the inspiration and motivation for what I'm doing today.

Speaker 29:36

Saving the earth in a different way. So uh in an ironic twist there was a brief period where I also wanted to be a marine biologist. So I grew up in New Jersey where I still live now and where I grew up was in a town right next to a tidal saltwater marsh. And so I had access to the beach. I mean my high school is a couple blocks from the ocean so from that perspective I was I was very blessed. But there is a national park about 35 minutes away from the town I grew up in uh Sandy Hook which overlooks the you know southern Manhattan skyline. And we used to have class trips and we went up there and I remember going up to a place called Horseshoe Cove where we did some science experiments and I remember finding a rotten out shell of a horseshoe crab and just just being fascinated with marine life in general. And so there was a brief stint when I was young that I also wanted to be a marine biologist but much more than that I wanted to be third baseman for the New York Yankees and uh unfortunately neither of those have worked out. Well I think my my marine biologist dream kind of went away when I um uh realized that I would have to be a really good swimmer which I'm not sure ah semantics so a little pivot here so okay so you wanted to be a marine biologist when you were growing up but I understand that if you were not if you did not do what you currently do as a profession your dream job would be what?

Speaker 2 31:16

Well I think that's another thing that we might have in common uh Matthew because my adult big passion is wine so being a sommelier somebody who really knows understands wine and knows how to pair them with the beautiful food having a job like that would pretty much come close to uh making uh a culture out of your hobby for me but can you really call that a job?

Speaker 31:44

I don't know if I can call that work.

Speaker 1 31:46

No I I I don't I don't think either well maybe the one thing because somebody tells me do you realize that when you're a sommelier you're not drink all the you're not drinking all the wine all the time okay fair point fair point so that so there is this yeah that's so there's this one restriction that I haven't thought of before but other than that I totally agree with you.

Speaker 32:07

All right let me set the stage for you it's late on a Friday afternoon and you've had one hell of a week and all you can think about is getting home and cracking open a bottle of wine and saying goodbye to this hellish week at work.

Speaker 2 32:22

Is there a specific bottle that you reach for that you just know is gonna kind of put you into that mood and kind of put the work week behind you well as a matter of fact uh the bottle of choice for now would be this um amazing red primitive wine that we've bought when we were on holidays we were sitting on on the on the terrace having a wonderful uh Italian meal and then this and the and this bottle of wine and we loved it so much that uh at that moment at the restaurant table we ordered the box to be delivered to our home and I still have three of those in my in my wine fridge so that would be the the one of choice for me.

How To Reach Constantia And Closing]

Speaker 33:05

Okay. Depending upon the mood I guess and the time of year I should say my go-to would probably be a Charles Krug Cabernet which I just recently learned Charles Krug is part of the Mandavi family. I I was not aware of that but on a trip to Napa with my wife in early summer of 25 uh actually got to tour the winery ironically enough we were there at the same time that Andrea Bacelli was doing a two-night concert at the Charles Krug winery which is why we could only get an appointment there on a Wednesday Thursday Friday and Saturday were all sold out and I couldn't understand why and then I realized that he was going to be in town and tickets were a thousand dollars a piece for the on the cheap side so as much as we would have loved to have gone and seen him live uh just couldn't make that work but um similar to your experience uh a few years ago my wife and I were on a vacation uh multi-countr multi-country vacation if you will we were in Portugal and Spain and then France we actually uh it was our anniversary trip and we we were actually in Paris for our anniversary but we started in Lisbon and then Porto absolutely loved Porto and while we were there obviously we did a walking tour and got to enjoy some great port wines and same thing uh I ordered a half a case of bottles of uh of this uh port wine I don't even remember the the name of it and had it shipped to the house and so we still have a few a few bottles of that left so that's that's always a celebration but we seem to save those for more summertime rather than this time of year. So I guess kind of moving on a little bit I do like to give my guests an opportunity to provide some information either either contact information if if people are if if someone's interest has peaked on the conversation today and they want to reach out or um if you want to share Constantio's website or if there's any specific information you'd like to provide on on how people may be able to follow up to get more information if you wouldn't mind providing some of that.

Speaker 2 35:17

Oh absolutely thank you Matthew for the opportunity our wonderful new development regular stake has sparked your interest then please reach out to our colleagues in the US it's Constantia Blythwood um uh the best way would be to contact our Regional Sales Manager of North America, Chris Gullard. You can reach him through LinkedIn. I'm not sure we can put the the link into the podcast notes but I think that would be the best way to move forward with with the information okay sounds good and I guess any final thoughts before we sign off I think that's my final thought here would be that we talk about the balance we talk about the balancing act between sustainability and commercial uh viability and and regulatory compliance and I think that um in packaging like in life balance is very important not too much of the bad not too much of the good just the right amount.

Speaker 36:19

Okay great well folks thank you all so much for listening in today and Agneska again thank you for your time and your insights uh very much appreciate it please hit the like and subscribe button wherever you happen to be listening I very much appreciate the support if you would like to reach out as always www.precisionengsolutions.com that's my website uh hit the contact us section send me a note if you have ideas on future episodes or if you would like to participate in a an episode yourself so with that again thank you very much and until next time take care